Lex Fridman PodcastSteven Pressfield: The War of Art | Lex Fridman Podcast #102
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
145 min read · 29,293 words- 0:00 – 5:00
Introduction
- LFLex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Steven Pressfield, author of several powerful non-fiction and historical fiction books, including The War of Art, a book that had a big impact on my life and the life of millions of people whose passion is to create in art, science, business, sport, and everywhere else. I highly recommend it and others of his books on this topic, including Turning Pro, Do The Work, Nobody Wants To Read Your Shit, and The Warrior Ethos. Also, his book Gates Of Fire, about the Spartans and the Battle of Thermopylae, The Lion's Gate, Tides of War, and others are some of the best historical fiction novels ever written. As some of you know, I don't shy away from taking on a big difficult challenge. One of the hardest for me and for millions of others is the discipline of staring at an empty page every day, pushing on to think deeply, to create, despite the millions of excuses that fill the head. In his work, Steven has articulated this struggle better than anyone I've ever read. Quick summary of the ads. Two sponsors, The Jordan Harbinger Show and Cash App. Please consider supporting the podcast by going to jordanharbinger.com/lex and subscribing to it everywhere after that. And downloading Cash App and using code LEXPODCAST. Click on the links, buy all of the stuff, it really is the best way to support this podcast. This is the Artificial Intelligence Podcast. I recently considered renaming this podcast, but decided against it. AI is my passion, and in some sense, this podcast is not as much about AI but more about a journey of an AI researcher struggling to explore the human mind, the physics of our universe, and the nature of human behavior, intelligence, consciousness, love, and power. I will continue to return home to the technical, computer science, machine learning, engineering, math, programming, but also venture out to talk to people who had a big impact on my life outside the technical fields. Writers like Steven Pressfield and Stephen King. Musicians like Tom Waits. Political leaders like, well, you know who. And even athletes. I hope you join me on this journey. As usual, I'll do a few minutes of ads now, and no ads in the middle that can break the flow of the conversation. Click on the links, buy all of the stuff. It's the best way to support this podcast. This episode is supported by The Jordan Harbinger Show. Go to jordanharbinger.com/lex. It's how he knows I sent you. On that page, there's links to subscribe to it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and everywhere else. I've been binging on this podcast. Jordan is a great human being. He gets the best out of his guests, dives deep, calls them out when it's needed, and makes the whole thing fun to listen to. He's interviewed Kobe Bryant, Mark Cuban, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Garry Kasparov, and many more. I just finished listening to his recent conversation with Mick West about debunking conspiracy theories. This topic can be both fascinating and frustrating on both sides. But in this conversation, Jordan thread the needle beautifully, and so it turned out to be a great listen. I highly recommend it. Again, go to jordanharbinger.com/lex. It's how he knows I sent you. On that page, there's links to subscribe to this show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and everywhere else. This show is presented by Cash App, the number one finance app in the App Store. When you get it, use code LEXPODCAST. Cash App lets you send money to friends, buy Bitcoin, and invest in the stock market with as little as $1. Since Cash App allows you to buy Bitcoin, let me mention that cryptocurrency in the context of the history of money is fascinating. I recommend A Cent Of Money as a great book on this history. Debits and credits on ledgers started around 30,000 years ago. The US dollar, created over 200 years ago, and the first decentralized cryptocurrency released just over 10 years ago. So given that history, cryptocurrency's still very much in its early days of development, but it's still aiming to and just might redefine the nature of money. So again, if you get Cash App from the App Store or Google Play and use the code LEXPODCAST, you get $10 and Cash App will also donate $10 to FIRST, an organization that is helping advance robotics and STEM education for young people around the world. And now here's my conversation with Steven Pressfield.
- 5:00 – 11:43
Nature of war
- LFLex Fridman
Modern society in many ways dreams of creating universal peace, and yet war has molded civilization as we know it throughout its history. So, let's start at the high philosophical level. If you could imagine a world without war, how would that world be different? Perhaps put another way, what purpose has war served? Why do we fight?
- SPSteven Pressfield
I think we're basically the same creatures internally that we were in the cave, right? In tribal, uh, society back for however many, you know, hundreds of thousands, millions of years. Which means that we're in a, our, our, the dynamic in our mind is a kind of an us versus them dynamic where our tribe is the people-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... and everybody else are whatever, you know? And, uh, I don't see that, I don't think that's changed one iota over the, over the centuries. It's just a question of how, how one might sublimate that...... that urge to compete. When you're a martial artist, you know that, you know, a great part of your day, I'm sure, is dedicated to reaching that place of, you know, of, uh, total commitment in, in the face of competition, in the face of adversity, et cetera, et cetera, which is, I think, natural and great for the human race on an individual basis. So the, the hope that I have, if there is any hope... Personally, I don't think the human race is gonna be around very long. But, um, would be in, in sports or in other kind of sublimated activities where people can act out their need for conquest or aggression or so forth, but at the same time relate to their opponents as human beings. And when the game is over, you know, you embrace your competitor and stuff like that.
- LFLex Fridman
So you think war was, uh, inevitable? It's a, it's a part of human nature, as opposed to a force, a creative force in society that served a benefit?
- SPSteven Pressfield
Well, I'm sure it has benefited, you know, uh, spreading cultures and mixing cultures and stuff like that. But I think the, the urge to conquest, if you think about Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar or Napoleon or anybody like that, or e- even individual, or if we even think about one of the plants that we're looking at right outside. I mean, if you let a particular plant have its way, it would take over, you know, the whole hillside. And certainly in the days of Alexander the Great, let's say, there were, who knows, over the, over the face of the earth, hundreds of little kingdoms-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... China, Japan, you know, Asia, Europe, wherever, and every prince that grew up dreamt of conquering his neighbor and conquering a neighbor after that. That seems to be a, a universal human imperative, at least in the male of the species. So-
- LFLex Fridman
And war is just a realization of that imperative?
- SPSteven Pressfield
I think so.
- LFLex Fridman
So you've written about Spartans and the Battle of, uh, Thermopylae, you've... About Alexander the Great, about the Six-Day War in '67 in Israel, um, against Egypt, Jordan, Syria. What war, not just out of those but in general, do you think has been most transformative for the world?
- SPSteven Pressfield
Well, these are great questions, Lex. Uh-
- LFLex Fridman
Tough. Easy ones, right?
- SPSteven Pressfield
I mean, I wish I knew more about, uh, the Mongols, 'cause I certainly, from what I've, what little I know, I think that was a very... Their conquests were very transformative, bringing cultures, you know, in a horrible, bloody way together. But, um, gosh, what's been the most transformative? Maybe the Roman conquests, you know, establishing the Roman Empire and bringing that culture. Maybe Alexander the Great's wars that, uh, you know, united East and West, at least for a minute.
- LFLex Fridman
So building of empire. Do you have a sense... So there's wars. I mean, the, uh, the Six-Day War is not about building empires. It's about deep held, deeply held religious, cultural conflict and holding the line, holding the border. And then there is conquest, like the Mongols, that... What is it? Some large percentage of the population is a descendant of Genghis Khan, is, I believe, right? So that has transformative effects. And then World War II, I mean, personally and my family and so on, they had transformative effects.
- SPSteven Pressfield
Let me ask you this, Lex. Why are you, what are you trying to get at with these questions? What is this, kind of the th- the theme that you're, you're aiming at?
- LFLex Fridman
Well, I, I talked to Eric Weinstein and he said everything is great about war except, uh, the killing.
- SPSteven Pressfield
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
And, uh, there's a romantic notion of war. Certainly there's a romantic notion of being a warrior, but there's a romantic notion of war that somehow there's a creative force to it. That because we fight, out of that fighting comes culture, comes music and art, and more and more desire to create with the societies that win. And to me, war is not just, "Hey, I have a stick and I want your land." It's some kind of, um... Like, it has echoes of the, the creative force that makes humans unique to other animals. Like, wars, y- y- it can't be just four people or 10 people or 100 people. You have to have thousands of people agreeing, usually thousands or more, uh, for something s- so deeply, uh, that you would be willing to risk your own life. And there's a romantic notion to that. And because you've written so well and passionately about some of these, I wanted to see, 'cause I don't have any answers, I wanted to untangle that. Uh, if there is a reason we fight that's more than just anger and hate and, uh, wanting to conquer.
- 11:43 – 17:11
The struggle within
- LFLex Fridman
- SPSteven Pressfield
Well, let me take it from a completely different side.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SPSteven Pressfield
I don't think that I, in writing about war, am really that interested in war per se. I'm more interested in the metaphor. I, I think for me, I'm really writing about my own internal war and, and the war against myself and against my own, um, resistance, my own negativity, all, all of those things that are, uh...... that spirituality would, would be the opposite of. So, so I'm not really an expert on war. It's not like talking to Jim Mattis or to-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Right.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... you know, um, Victor Davis Hanson or whatever. Um, to me, a human being, we are spiritual beings in a physical envelope. And there's a automatic terrible tension-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... within that and, and which creates a war inside ourselves. So the outer, the outer war, when I, when I think about the Israeli army standing up to, you know, whatever, 10:1 odds or whatever it was, that is a metaphor, to me, of the fight we're fighting inside ourselves. For me, the Six-Day War was... As you know, my feeling was it, it was about a return from exile. It was sort of the culmination of the re-establishment of the state of Israel, which had never really been completed because the holiest places of the Jewish people were in the hands of their enemies. So now, on, on the other hand, Alexander the Great's conquests, I think, were a whole other different scenario where the metaphor was that H- Alexander's father, Philip, I think, created the first Nation, capital N Nation. And he created a sort of a pathway for these guys who were mountain men and basically barbarians-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... Macedonians, and cre- by creating this army and this dream of conquering the world, which Alexander took to the... you know, really enact it, he gave them a way of, of rising out of themselves, of transcending themselves, not just individually but as a people. So, that would go along with what you're saying, Lex-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... of a certain creativity to it. Um, but a- but again, that's not for whatever... And I'm just realizing this as I'm answering this. That's not really what's interesting to me about these stories. And the Spartans, th- was a whole... At Thermopylae, that was a whole other kind of metaphor of war. That was a sort of a, a, a willingly going to one's own death for a greater cause. Just like, to me, the Spartans at Thermopylae enacted as a group what Jesus Christ enacted as an individual, a sacrifice of their lives for the greater, for the greater good. I don't know if that answers your question-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- SPSteven Pressfield
... but that's how I, that's how I see it. Uh, I do feel like, you know, I get invited to speak to Marine Corps groups and things-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... like that all the time and I decline, because I don't really feel like I'm a spokesman for the warrior class or anything like that. Um, it's not... that's not what's interesting about it to me.
- LFLex Fridman
But didn't you just say, with war as a metaphor, that we're all essentially in various ways warriors? (laughs)
- SPSteven Pressfield
If we think of it in terms of Jungian archetypes and think of our life as, at least as u- as males, and the earliest archetypes that kick in are the youth and the wanderer and the student and that kind of thing. And then at some point around age 15 to 20, whatever, the warrior archetype kicks in and we wanna play football, or we wanna do martial arts, we wanna d- join the Special Forces, we wanna hang out with our buddies, that's our great bond, we wanna test ourselves against adversity and so on and so forth. But at some point, that archetype, we move beyond that archetype.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
And we become fathers and, and teachers and so on and so forth. And then there are many archetypes beyond that towards the end. So I'm, I'm interested in the warrior archetype-
- LFLex Fridman
Yes.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... but not to the be all and end all of everything else. You know, there's a... in, in, um, in my book, The Virtues of War, I-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
Have you read that?
- LFLex Fridman
No.
- SPSteven Pressfield
Well, there's a character named Telamon who's act- it's a long story. But, uh, when... He's with Alexander's army and when they arrive in India, he becomes fascinated by the gymnosophists, the fakirs, the naked wise men, the, the yogis. And he says to, uh, to Alexander that these guys are, are warriors beyond what we are-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... even though they do nothing, because they, they are inside their own selves, you know, all day
- 17:11 – 25:17
Love and hate in a time of war
- SPSteven Pressfield
long.
- LFLex Fridman
If we, if we go to the Six-Day War, uh, you write about, uh... In Lions Gate, you write about the Six-Day War in Israel. Uh, I think of the wars you've written about, it's the one we're still in many ways in the midst of today.
- SPSteven Pressfield
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
So, um, what is at the core of that conflict in Israel?
- SPSteven Pressfield
The, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?
- LFLex Fridman
I mean, today it's the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but it's, um, echoes of the same conflict in that part of the world with Israel. What is, uh, in your sense, um, the nature of that conflict? What can we learn about society and human nature from that conflict that is one of the hottest conflicts that still goes on today?
- SPSteven Pressfield
Well, when I was working on the Lions Gate about the Six-Day War, I wrote in the, um, in the introduction that this was not gonna be a multi-sided story. I was taking an entirely... I'm a Jew, I identify with the Israeli people, I was gonna see it entirely from their side.... so that's probably not what you're asking, but-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- SPSteven Pressfield
... to me, the Six-Day War and that whole... You know, it's, it's a piece of land that's holy to at least three religions and probably more.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SPSteven Pressfield
And from the Jewish point of view, it's where the State of Israel, it's where David founded Jerusalem. It's all... Where the 12 tribes were etc., etc., where Moses came and brought the people. So to, to me the, the Six-Day War was about, as I said, a return from exile, from diaspora after 2,000 years. Now obviously, from the Palestinian point of view or the Saudi Arabian point of view or whatever, as, it's a whole other scenario.
- LFLex Fridman
Religion is at the core of this conflict in some ways, r- religious beliefs.
- SPSteven Pressfield
Religion and racial/ethnic tribal identity. I mean, again, what is a Jew? Is a Jew somebody that believes in the religion or is it somebody of a certain race that, that, who that race arose in a certain place?
- LFLex Fridman
Right.
- SPSteven Pressfield
Same thing as a Muslim. What is a Muslim? Do they believe in, you know, Muhammad or whatever, uh, or-
- LFLex Fridman
So-
- SPSteven Pressfield
... did they arise in a certain place and a certain ethnicity? 'Cause if we landed from Mars, we couldn't tell a Jew from a Palestinian, could we? You know-
- LFLex Fridman
Right.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... just looking at them-
- LFLex Fridman
Right.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... you could easily mix them and you'd never know.
- LFLex Fridman
And the, th- the, the specifics of the faith is not necessarily the, the thing that defines-
- SPSteven Pressfield
No.
- LFLex Fridman
... the person.
- SPSteven Pressfield
I don't think so.
- LFLex Fridman
All right. So you could be, like many are, a secular, uh, Jew living in Israel and still have a strong bond-
- SPSteven Pressfield
Definitely, definitely.
- LFLex Fridman
... to...
- SPSteven Pressfield
In fact, almost all of the Jews, the fighters that I spoke to from, from the Six-Day War, were secular and it really was not, uh, you know, a religious thing with them as much as it was a national thing.
- LFLex Fridman
So having spent time in Israel, uh, how's the world where military conflict is directly felt as opposed to maybe if we look at the US, whereas distant and far away, how is that world different? How are the people different?
- 25:17 – 28:31
Future of warfare
- LFLex Fridman
what do you think is the future of warfare? Especially with, uh, what many people see as the expansion of the military-industrial conflict? Do, what... Do you... I know you're not a military historian. Uh, I'm asking more as a metaphor. (laughs)
- SPSteven Pressfield
Uh-huh.
- LFLex Fridman
Would... Do you see us as people continuing to fight?
- SPSteven Pressfield
You know, it's a really great question, Lex, because, because I think now with, uh, social media, TV, movies, all of these things that create empathy across cultures, it becomes harder and harder I think, I think, to totally demonize the other the way it was in, in previous wars. I also think... I don't really see an appetite for people wanting to go to war these days. I... And, and in a way, I don't know if that's good or bad. It's like everybody is so fat and lazy and so concerned with how many-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... clicks they're getting that, uh, you know... Whereas I, I know at the start of World War I, the gen-... Both the younger generations were eager to go to war.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
You know? Uh, I think it was a-... It was, it was insane, but it was that sort of warrior archetype that we were talking about before that, that generational, um, testosterone eros thing. Whereas nowadays, I don't know. I mean, it's hard to say there's not gonna be another war, because there always are, but it's sort of hard to imagine people getting off their ass these days to do anything.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, it's funny that you mentioned social media as a place for empathy, sure. But it's... Uh, in a sense, it's a place for, uh, for war as well.
- SPSteven Pressfield
Or hatred, yeah. True.
- LFLex Fridman
For hatred. And, and perhaps, uh, uh, the positive aspect of hatred on social media is that s-... It's somewhat less harmful than murder, uh, and so it kinda dissipates sort of the hateful s-... Uh, you get the hate out at, um-
- SPSteven Pressfield
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... at a, you know, at a less-
- SPSteven Pressfield
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... uh, on a daily basis, and thereby it never boils up to a point where you want to kill.
- SPSteven Pressfield
It's also a really weird th- thing that's going on, and I don't know if anybody really understands. Like, with video games, where kids are acting out these incredible horror things, right?
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SPSteven Pressfield
But you know that if s-... They cut their finger, they would, like, freak out, you know?
- LFLex Fridman
Freak out, yeah.
- SPSteven Pressfield
Um, and, and I also don't think that many of the people that are hateful on social media, if they were face to face with the person-
- LFLex Fridman
Right.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... they wouldn't... So there's a sort of a two, two mental spheres happening at the same time. Uh, and I don't know how that-
- LFLex Fridman
Maps to the actual-
- SPSteven Pressfield
... plays out.
- LFLex Fridman
... military... H- how that actually maps to military conflict, uh-
- SPSteven Pressfield
Yeah, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... just like when you... I- if you, in the United States, have a draft, for example. What... How the populace would respond different than they did in previous generations.
- SPSteven Pressfield
Yeah, I think they certainly would.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- 28:31 – 30:10
Technology in war
- LFLex Fridman
Another question. Not sure if you've thought about it, but, uh, I work on building artificial intelligence systems. In our community, many people are worried about AI being used in war. So, automating the killing process. The, uh... With, with, with drones, and in general. It's being used more and more, and s-
- SPSteven Pressfield
I should recuse myself on that one. I really haven't thought about that, no.
- LFLex Fridman
You haven't thought about it? S-
- SPSteven Pressfield
I'd rather ask you what you think about it.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Well, it's interesting. I mean, because it's so fundamentally different from if you look at the Battle of Thermopylae. It, it... I mean, just if we talk about the difference between a gun and a-
- SPSteven Pressfield
Uh...
- LFLex Fridman
... and a sword. It's-
- SPSteven Pressfield
Well, I'll tell you one little anecdote. There was a, uh, a, a Spartan king. I don't know which one it was. Uh, but at one point, they showed him a new invention, and it could launch a bolt that would, you know, kill someone in a range of 200 yards.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SPSteven Pressfield
And the king wept and said, "Alas, valor is no more."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- SPSteven Pressfield
'Cause their-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... point of view of war, it was highly ritualized, as you know. And the, the, the code of honor was that you were not supposed to be able to kill another person unless you yourself were in equal danger of being killed. And any other way of doing that, even bow and arrow, was considered less than manly and less than honorable. And maybe we should go back to that, because at least it makes the stakes real and true.
- LFLex Fridman
And, uh-
- SPSteven Pressfield
Not that we could.
- LFLex Fridman
Not, not... That's the point. Uh, you were in the Marine Corps, so
- 30:10 – 32:22
What it takes to kill a person
- LFLex Fridman
we talk about the real, the bloody conflicts. You've written about many of them. So let me ask a personal question. Have you, sort of as writing and in general, have you thought about what it takes to kill a person if you yourself could do it in a war?
- SPSteven Pressfield
I have thought about it, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
And how that would make you feel?
- SPSteven Pressfield
... of, of course, one never knows. I certainly, I have not been in combat, I haven't killed anybody. But I would imagine in the real world that it would change you utterly forever. Because you can't help but identify with the person that you've just killed.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SPSteven Pressfield
And it's another human being and, uh, I mean, I have a hard time killing a spider. So I, I would imagine that it's something that warriors understand and nobody else understands.
- LFLex Fridman
And you've spoken with many how, uh... I mean, you, you've spoken with people who've seen military combat-
- SPSteven Pressfield
Oh, yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... in Israel. Uh, what... Have they been able to articulate the, the experience of killing?
- SPSteven Pressfield
It's the s- it's sort of just what I said. I mean, I'm, I'm even thinking of one pilot that I interviewed over there, um, who, uh, you know, was strafing a tank-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... in his Mustang and saw at, at really low altitude and, you know, saw what his bullets did to the guy and could see his face and everything like that, which is even, you know, one remove or more removes from an infantryman, what an infantryman does. And he said that, uh, that same thing that I said, that it just changes you and you can never-
- LFLex Fridman
Changes you.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... say it, like never look at the world or look at anything the same way again.
- LFLex Fridman
And when you... if that happens at scale, so it's thousands-
- SPSteven Pressfield
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... tens of thousands, hundred-
- SPSteven Pressfield
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
... that changes entire societies.
- SPSteven Pressfield
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
I mean, that's what we've seen. What-
- SPSteven Pressfield
At least it... But the problem is, it doesn't change the politicians back home.
- LFLex Fridman
Right.
- 32:22 – 37:30
Mortality
- LFLex Fridman
How important is mortality, finiteness, the, the fact that this thing ends, to the creative process? So killing and war really emphasizes that. But in general, the fact that this thing ends, do you-
- SPSteven Pressfield
It, it does? (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
It does and, uh-
- SPSteven Pressfield
Shit. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) And on a, and on a serious note, do you think about your mortality? Do you meditate on your own mortality when you think about the work you do?
- SPSteven Pressfield
That's another great question, Lex. Uh, I actually, I'm 75 and I just was having... I had breakfast in New York a few months ago with a friend of mine who's like my exact same age. And I said to him, uh, I said, "Nick, do you ever think about mortality?" And he said, "Every fucking minute of every day." (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- SPSteven Pressfield
And I, I was kind of relieved to hear that because I d- I do too. Uh, but I actually, I always have, I think. And I, I think, you know, the fact of mortality is... kind of gives meaning to life, you know? I think that's why we wanna create, um, that's why we wanna make a mark of some kind or, uh... And the other aspect of it is what's on the other side of that mortality? I'm, I'm a believer in previous lives, so I, I sort of, uh, and I, I... The question I've never been able to answer among many, many others is like, why are we even here?
- LFLex Fridman
Right.
- SPSteven Pressfield
Why are we in the flesh? You know, I sort of, I like to believe that God or some force is... we're on some kind of journey, um, but I'm not sure why, why we were put in this world where the ground rules are, if you think about animal life, that you cannot live from one day to the next without killing and eating some other form of life. I mean, what a demented thing-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Yeah.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... you know?
- LFLex Fridman
Yes.
- SPSteven Pressfield
Why couldn't we just have a solar panel on our head and, you know, be friends with everybody? So I sort of... I, I don't get what that was all about, but that's sort of the big issue.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, have you read Ernest Becker's Denial of Death, for example? Is, uh, Ernest Becker's a philosopher, uh, that said that the, that death, that the fear of death is really the primary driver of everything we do. So Freud had what, the-
- SPSteven Pressfield
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
... the, the-
- SPSteven Pressfield
I would agree with that.
- LFLex Fridman
So, d- to you, you've always thought about your, even your own mortality?
- SPSteven Pressfield
Yes, definitely.
- LFLex Fridman
And, uh, can you elaborate on, um, the, the reincarnation aspect of what you were talking about? Like that we kinda... What's your sense that we had previous lives?
- SPSteven Pressfield
Um-
- LFLex Fridman
Wha- wha- in what... Have you thought concretely or is it a lot of it kind of is...
- SPSteven Pressfield
No, I've thought con- concretely about it.
- LFLex Fridman
Concretely.
- SPSteven Pressfield
I mean, it's very clear when you see children, young kids, or even dogs and cats, that they come into the world with personalities, you know? And three kids in a family are gonna be com- completely different and completely their own person.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SPSteven Pressfield
And, and, and that person that they are doesn't change over life. And I... You know, there's... one of the things that, uh, um, I did in, uh, my book, The Artist's Journey, is that there were certain things where I tracked or just listed in order, like all of Bruce Springsteen's albums or all of Philip Roth's books, you know, kind of a body of work throughout over, you know, a period of 30, 40, 50 years, you know? And you can see that there's a theme running through all of those things, that it's completely unique to that person. Nobody else could have written Philip Roth's books or Bruce Springsteen's songs. And you can even see sort of a, a destiny there. So I ask myself, "Well, where did that come from?" What... It, it s- it seems to be......a continuation of something that was, that happened before and that will lead to something else because it's not starting from scratch. It seems like there's a, uh, a calling, a destiny in there already. This gets back to the muse and all that kind of thing. And, uh-
- LFLex Fridman
So, yeah. It's almost like the, there's this, let- let- let's call it a god. Uh, it's passing... It's almost like, uh, sampling parts of a previous human that has lived and putting that, those into the, the new one. (laughs)
- SPSteven Pressfield
Sampling is probably a pretty good word.
- 37:30 – 46:09
The muse
- LFLex Fridman
okay. So you, you, you talk about the muse as, um, the source of, of ideas maybe. Since you've gotten a few glimpses of her in your writing, tell me, um, uh, what I mean, w- what is it possible for you to tell me about, about her? Where does she reside? What, what does she look like?
- SPSteven Pressfield
I mean, you can look at it many different ways, right? Uh, the Greeks did it in an anthropomorphic way, right? They c- they created gods that were like human beings. Um, but if you look at it from, uh, a Kabbalistic Jewish perspective, Jewish mysticism, you could say that it's the soul, the neshama, right? That soul is above us on a higher plane, our own, your soul, my soul, and it's trying to reach down to us-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... and, and communicate with us. And we're trying simultaneously to reach up to i- to it through prayer or through, if you're a writer or an artist, you know, when you sit down at the keyboard, you're entering into a kind of prayer. You're entering into a different state of, of, uh, an altered consciousness to some extent. You're opening yourself, opening the pipeline or turning on the radio to tune in to the cosmic radio station. An- another way of looking at it, this is an... Did you ever see, um, the movie City of Angels? The visual of the movie, it was, um, Meg Ryan and-
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, Nicolas Cage?
- SPSteven Pressfield
... Nicolas Cage.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, yeah, I've seen it. Yep.
- SPSteven Pressfield
And right, the visual of the movie sort of was Meg Ryan is a, is a, uh, heart surgeon and as she's operating on somebody, suddenly Nicolas Cage in this long duster coat like Jesse James-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... appears right next to her in the operating room, and he's an angel. And he's waiting to take out the soul of the pa- patient on the-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... on the operating table. And she doesn't see him. She's totally unaware of him and so is everybody else in the operating room, except maybe the guy who's about to die-
- LFLex Fridman
Right.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... who suddenly sees him. But I kind of believe that w- that there are beings like that, or if you don't like that, it's a force, it's a consciousness, it's something that are right here, right now. And, and we... And they're trying to communicate to us.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
And like through a membrane, like tapping on that window over there.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SPSteven Pressfield
They're like right out there and they carry the future. They are everything that is in potential. All the works that you will do, Lex-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... your startup, whatever else-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... you're doing, they, they know that. And it's not really you that's coming up with those ideas, in my opinion. Those things are appearing, you know... It's like somebody knocks on the door-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... and puts it in. I mean, in The Iliad where gods and goddesses appear along with the human antagonists on the battlefield all the time, right? They'll be... You know, Homer flashes to Olympus and then back to the real world. And there's a thing where one Aphrodite, let's say, wants to help Paris. And so she says, "Well, I will appear to him in a dream, and I'll take the form of his brother, and I'll say bumpida bumpida bump." So that's creatures, beings on one dimension, as the Greeks saw it, communicating with... And I believe that that's exactly what's going on in one, whatever analogy you wanna use.
- LFLex Fridman
But that, that communication, to which degree is, uh... do you play the role in that communication as opposed to sitting at the computer, if you're a writer, and staring at the blank page and putting in the time and waiting? What... So i- if, uh... In your, in your view, i- is, are these creatures basically waiting to tell you about your future (laughs) or is there choice? How many possible futures are there? How many possible ideas are there?
- SPSteven Pressfield
That's a great question. I think there's basically... Yes, there are al- alternatives, you know, degrees within it, but I... If you look at Bruce Springsteen's albums, how much could he-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- SPSteven Pressfield
... have done really differently? Yeah. He c- he would... You can just see there's a whole impetus w- going through the whole thing. And nothing was gonna shake him off that, you know? And yeah, maybe The River could have been different, could have been called something else, but, but he was dealing with certain issues. His conscious self was dealing with certain issues that were really out of his control. He was, he was drawn. He was called to it, right? Nothing could stop him. And so it is sort of a partnership betw- I think, the creative process, between the... And, and, and creative impulse that's coming from some other place-... or it's coming from deep within us is another way to look at it. You know, it's a, like if we are acorns and-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... and we're growing th- into oaks. Um, so the conscious per- artist who's sitting there at the keyboard or- or whatever is applying his or her consciousness to that, but is also going into opening themselves to the unconscious or to this other realm, whatever- whatever that is. I mean, certainly songwriters for a million years have said, you know, a song just came into their head, right?
- 46:09 – 52:19
Editing
- SPSteven Pressfield
to him."
- LFLex Fridman
So (laughs) the- the hard work and the suffering, yeah. But, uh, you know, I'm also, being Russian, uh, in wrestling and martial arts, we're big into drilling technique. I was also just even getting at... There's... Certainly, there's no shortcut, but is there a process? So you're an- uh, it... The prac- there can be... The process of practice. Uh, so you had two. One, you had an example of, uh, meditation. So it's essentially the practice of meditation, is you-
- SPSteven Pressfield
I think so.
- LFLex Fridman
... sitting-
- SPSteven Pressfield
Well, drill, I think, is a good way to look at it too.
- LFLex Fridman
But what are you- what are you drilling? You're just sitting and-
- SPSteven Pressfield
You're- you're- you're writing, you know?
- LFLex Fridman
Just writing.
- SPSteven Pressfield
You're writing. You're l- then you're looking at what you wrote, you know? You're hitting moments when it flows, you know, and you're- and you're... and then there are other hitting moments where you just can't do anything and you're trying to... from the moments that- where it flowed, you're trying to come back and look at it and say, "What- what did I do? How did that- how did that happen? Where was my mind?" You know? But I think it's just a process of over and over and over and over until finally it gets a little bit easier.
- LFLex Fridman
And did you, uh... Did you always... When you- when you read something you write, did you always have a pretty good radar for what's good and not after it's written?
- SPSteven Pressfield
No. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- SPSteven Pressfield
I think I do now but, uh, but no, it was always really hard for me to know what was good. Um...
- LFLex Fridman
I mean, do you edit? The process of editing, uh, is the process of looking at what you've written and improving it. Uh, are you a better writer or an editor? How often do you edit?
- SPSteven Pressfield
That's another great question. Great question, 'cause I do think that in writing, the real process of looking at it is the process that an editor does rather than what a writer does. The- the gentleman I was just talking to on the phone is my editor, Sean Coyne, who was the guy who bought Gates of Fire-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... when he was an editor at Doubleday, and who... Basically, when I finish a book, I give it to him.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
And he- and he gives me... You know, he- he... Editing doesn't really mean like crossing out commas. It really means looking at the overall work and saying, "Does it work? And if it doesn't work, why doesn't it work? Is there something wrong here?" You know, like if you're building the Golden Gate Bridge, you know, and one span was out of whack, you know, you could... And- and, uh, I think a really skilled editor, which Sean is-... understands what, what makes a story tick. And he also has the perspective that I've lost in something I wrote 'cause I'm so close to it, to say, you know, "This, you know, this isn't working, and, and that is working."
- LFLex Fridman
What kind of advice is he giving you? Is it like, like layout? Like, uh, "This story doesn't flow correctly." Like, "It, you shouldn't start at this point." Or does he even sit back at a higher level and say, "I see what you're doing, but you could do better"? (laughs)
- SPSteven Pressfield
No, he doesn't do that.
- LFLex Fridman
Okay. (laughs)
- SPSteven Pressfield
But a lot of it is about, um, genre and kind of the, defining what genre you're working in. And, um, in f- I'm gonna get up here to just-
- LFLex Fridman
Sure.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... bring something over here for the camera. Um, this was one where Sean tore this down and made me start from scratch.
- LFLex Fridman
Okay.
- SPSteven Pressfield
And what the, the specifics of it were really, this is a, a c- a supernatural thriller. That's the genre, sort of like Rosemary's Baby or, um, The Exorcist.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
And what he made, what he showed me was that I had kind of... I had violated certain conventions of the genre, you know, that, uh... And you just can't do that, you know. It's gotta be, you know... it has to be done the right way.
- LFLex Fridman
Oh, that's good.
- 52:19 – 1:10:41
Resistance
- LFLex Fridman
In your book, The War of Art, you talk about resistance with a capital R as the invisible force in this universe of ours that finds a way to prevent you from, uh, starting or doing the work. Wh- where do you think resistant comes from? Why is there a force in our mind that's constantly trying to jeopardize our efforts with laziness, excuses, and so on?
- SPSteven Pressfield
That's, that's another great question. I mean, in, in Jewish mysticism, in Kabbalistic thinking, it's called the Yetzer Hara, right? And it's a s- it's a force that if, if this up here is your soul of neshama trying to talk to you, us down here-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... the Yetzer Hara is this negative force in the middle. So I'm not the only one that ever thought about this. But... And, and I don't know if anybody really a- knows the answer, but h- here's my answer. I think that there are two places where we as human beings can seat our identity. One is the ego, the conscious ego, and the other is the greater self. And the self in the, in the Jungian sense, the self in the Jungian sense includes the unconscious and butts up against what Jung called the divine ground, which what I would call the muse, the goddess or whatever. And I think... And the ego is just this little dot inside this bigger self.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
And the ego has a completely different view of, of life as from the self. The ego believes... I'm gonna give you a long answer here, Lex.
- LFLex Fridman
No, perfect.
- SPSteven Pressfield
The ego believes that death is real. The ego believes that time and space are real. The ego believes that each one of us is separate from the other. I'm separate from you. You know, I could punch you in the face, and it wouldn't hurt me. It would only hurt you. And in the ego's world, the dominant emotion is fear. Because we are all made of flesh. We can all die, we can all be hurt, we can all be ruined, bum-ba-da-bum. So we're protecting ourselves. And even our desire to create-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... as we were talking about before, comes out of that fear of death. The self, on the other hand, the greater self that butts up against the divine ground, believes that death is not real, that time and space are not real, that the gods travel swift as thought. And the ego also believes that... I mean, the self believes that there's no difference between you and me, that we're all one. If I hurt you......I hurt myself, karma, right? And in the world of the self, of the greater self, the dominant emotion is love, not fear.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
Now, so I think that... Let me... I'll go farther back here. I'll try... It's a long way to answer your question. When Jesus died on the cross or when the 300 Spartans willingly sacrificed their lives at Thermopylae, they were acting according to the rules of the self.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
Death is not real. No difference between you and me. Time and space are not real. Predominant emotion is love. So in my opinion, we, as conscious human vessels-
- LFLex Fridman
(smacks lips) Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... have... Are, are in a struggle between these two things, the ego and the self. To me, resistance is the voice of the ego saying... And it's a fearful voice, because if... When we identify with the self, we move our consciousness over to the self, as, as artists or scientists opening ourselves up to the cosmic dimension, to the, to the other forces, the ego is tremendously threatened by that. Because if we're, if we're in that space, that headspace, we don't need the ego anymore. So I think resistance is a voice of, of the ego trying to keep control of us.
- LFLex Fridman
Keep you there. Yeah.
- SPSteven Pressfield
Um, in a way, I'll give you a bad example. Trump-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... is the ego.
- LFLex Fridman
That's probably a very good example, right? Yeah. (laughs)
- SPSteven Pressfield
You know? It's a zero-sum world for him-
- LFLex Fridman
Yes.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... and for anybody that's in that. And the opposite of that would be somebody like Martin Luther King or Gandhi.
- LFLex Fridman
Gandhi. Gandhi, yep.
- SPSteven Pressfield
Um, and that's of course why they all wind up getting assassinated. Because that voice, that ego is hanging onto itself and feels so threatened-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... by, um... I could talk more about this if you want. You can-
- LFLex Fridman
No, for sure. That's, uh, that's, uh, that's fascinating. It's just... It's interesting why the fear is attached to the ego. I really like this dichotomy of ego and self and that struggle. It's just, um... Ego has a, you know, the self-obsession of it. Why, why, uh, fear is such a predominant thing? Like, why is resistance trying to undermine everything? Uh, the, the-
- SPSteven Pressfield
It's fear. It's out of fear. L- let's think about the whole thing in terms of stories. In a story, the villain is always resistance, is always the ego. The hero is, is always... Of course, always is not everything, but you know what I mean, pretty much, represents kind of the self. If you think about the alien on the spaceship, that's like the ultimate kind of villain. It keeps changing form, right? First, it goes on the guy's face, then it pops out of his chest, but it all... Always just has that one monomaniacal thing to, to, to destroy, you know? And, uh, just like the ego, just like resistance. And maybe Alien is a bad example because Sigourney Weaver has to sort of, um, fight on the same terms as, as the alien. But maybe a better example might be something like Casablanca-
- 1:10:41 – 1:12:24
Loneliness
- LFLex Fridman
of it.
- SPSteven Pressfield
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
So, uh, the writing process, uh, is it fundamentally lonely? So-
- SPSteven Pressfield
No.
- LFLex Fridman
And-
- SPSteven Pressfield
Because you're with your characters.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- SPSteven Pressfield
You are.
- LFLex Fridman
So you really put yourself in the world?
- SPSteven Pressfield
Absolutely. You know, uh, I've, I've written about this before that I used to h... My desk used to face a wall instead of seeing... And people would say, "Well, don't you wanna look out the window?" But I'm, I'm in here. I'm, you know, I'm seeing, you know, the Spartans. I'm seeing, you know, whatever. And the charac- the characters that are on the page or that you create are not accidents, you know? They're coming out of some issue, some deep issue that you have-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... whether you realize it or not. You might not realize it till 20 years later or if somebody explains it to you. So, your characters are kind of fascinating to you and their dilemmas are, are fascinating to you. And you're also trying to, to, um, come to grips with them, you know? You sort of see them through a glass darkly, you know, and you really wanna go... See them more clearly. Um, so yeah, no, it's not lonely at all. In fact, I'm more lonely sometimes later or going out to dinner with some people and actually talking to people.
- LFLex Fridman
Do you miss the characters after it's over?
- SPSteven Pressfield
Uh, let's say I have, I have affection for them, kind of like children-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... that have gone off to college and now are-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- SPSteven Pressfield
... you know, you only see them at Thanksgiving.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, it's a...
- SPSteven Pressfield
Definitely, I have affection for 'em, even the bad guys.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Maybe especially the bad guys?
- SPSteven Pressfield
Especially the bad guys.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- 1:12:24 – 1:13:53
Is a warrior born or trained?
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, you've, uh, said that writers, even successful writers, are often not tough-minded enough. And I've read that in a post, that you have to be a professional in the way you handle your emotions, that you have to be a bit of a warrior to be a writer. So, what are... Uh, what do you think makes a warrior? Is it, uh... Is a warrior born or trained in the realm, in the bigger realm, in, in the realm of writing and the creative process?
- SPSteven Pressfield
I think, uh, I think they're born to some extent. You have the gift. Like you might have the gift as a martial artist to do whatever martial artists do. But the, the training is, is the big thing, 90% training, 10%, 10% genetics. And, uh, you know, I use another analogy other than warrior to... As far as writers, and that's like to be a mother.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
If you think about...... if you're a writer or any creative person, you're giving birth to something, right? You're carrying a new life inside you. And, uh, in terms of bravery, if your child, your two-year-old child is underneath a, a car is coming down the street, the mother's gonna like stop a Buick, you know-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... with her bare hands. So that's, uh, that's another way to think about how a, how a writer has to think about, or any creative person has to think about, I think, what they're, what they're doing, what this, this child, this new creation that they're bringing forth.
- 1:13:53 – 1:18:41
Hard work and health
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, so the hard work that's underlying that, I've, uh, just a couple weeks ago talked to, just happened to be in the same room, both gave talks, Arianna Huffington. I did this conversation-
- SPSteven Pressfield
Uh-huh.
- LFLex Fridman
... with her. Uh, she, uh, I didn't know much about her be- before then. But she has recently been, she wrote a couple books and been promoting a lifestyle where she basically, she created The Huffington Post and she gave herself like, I don't know, 20 hours a day just obsessed with her work. And then she, uh, she fainted, passed out, and kind of, uh, there was some health issues. And so she wrote this book saying that, um, you know, sleep, basically you want to establish a lifestyle that doesn't sacrifice health, that's productive but doesn't sacrifice health. She thinks that you can have both, productivity and health, criticizing Elon Musk, who I've also spoken with-
- SPSteven Pressfield
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
... for working too hard and thereby sacrificing, um, you know, uh, being less effective than he could be. So, uh, I'm, I'm trying to get at this balance between health and obsessively working at something and really working hard. So I'm, what Arianna is talking about makes sense to me, but I'm a little bit torn. To me, passion and reason do not overlap much or at all sometimes. Uh, maybe I'm being too Russian, but uh-
- SPSteven Pressfield
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
... uh, I feel madness and obsession does not care for health or sleep or diet or any of that. And hard work, just hard work a- and everything else can go to hell. So if you're really focused on, whether it's writing a book, ev- it should, everything should just go to hell. Uh, where do you stand on this balance? How important is health for productivity? How important is it to sort of get sleep and so on?
- SPSteven Pressfield
I'm fr- on the, on the health side.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SPSteven Pressfield
Uh, I mean, th- there was a period of my life when I was just, uh, uh, I had no obligations and I was just living in a little house and just working nonstop, you know? But even then, I would get up in the morning and I would have liver and eggs for breakfast-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... every day, and I would do my, you know, exercise, whatever it was. But, although I was still doing like, you know, 18 hours a day. But I, I, I'm definitely, I kind of think of it sort of like an athlete does.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SPSteven Pressfield
I'm sure that like Steph Curry, um, is, is, is totally committed to winning championships and stuff like that. But he has his family, he sees his fam- you know, family is always there. He, I'm sure he eats, you know, perfect, great stuff, gets his sleep, you know, gets the, the, the, the, uh, train- you know, the whatever a trainer does to him for his knees and his ankles and whatever. So I, or Kobe Bryant or anybody that's, uh, that's operating at a high level. So I do think I'm from the kind of the health school. The good thing about being a writer-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... is it d- you can't work very many hours a day. You, you know, four hours is like the maximum I can work. I've never been able to work more than that. I don't know how people do it. I've c- heard of people do 10, 12, I don't know how they do it. So that gives you a lot of other time to, to do it.
- LFLex Fridman
Optimize, uh, your health, right?
- SPSteven Pressfield
Yeah, optimize your health.
- LFLex Fridman
To do the exercise, to-
- SPSteven Pressfield
'Cause you need to. You're in training, you know? You're, you're really, you're burning up a lot of B vitamins when you're working there at the...
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Yeah, but uh-
- SPSteven Pressfield
Maybe it's a-
- LFLex Fridman
... some-
- SPSteven Pressfield
... Russian thing with you, Lex.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, it's not even a Russian thing. I mean, uh-
- SPSteven Pressfield
It also may be youth, you know?
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SPSteven Pressfield
At 35 you can be crazy.
- LFLex Fridman
You know, that's, that's the thing they, they keep telling me, but I'm pretty sure I'll be, um, at it still at a li- a later time too. I think, um, and it has to do with the career choice too. Uh, I think writing is almost, from everything I've heard, it's almost impossible to do it more than a few hours really well. The, when you start to get into certain disciplines, like with Elon Musk and me, uh, engineering disciplines, that really there's a lot more non-muse time needed.
- SPSteven Pressfield
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- 1:18:41 – 1:27:23
Daily ritual
- LFLex Fridman
what does a perfect day look like for you, um, if we're talking about writing? An hour by hour schedule of a perfect day.
- SPSteven Pressfield
Um, I get up early, I go to the gym, I have breakfast with some friends of mine. I come-
- LFLex Fridman
What's early, by the way? What's, like I, how early-
- SPSteven Pressfield
3:15.
- LFLex Fridman
AM?
- SPSteven Pressfield
AM.
- LFLex Fridman
So we're talking really early.
- SPSteven Pressfield
Really early. And I'm crazy early, ridiculously early.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SPSteven Pressfield
But, and I haven't done that always, but that's kind of what-
- LFLex Fridman
Perfect day.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... what I'm on now. Um, so I'm in bed like, uh, when I'm with my, my nephews that are like four years old and three years old-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- SPSteven Pressfield
... I'm in bed before them.
- LFLex Fridman
Okay.
- SPSteven Pressfield
Um-
- LFLex Fridman
You got a beat.
- SPSteven Pressfield
... uh...
- LFLex Fridman
You wake up... So- so, you said exercise first?
- SPSteven Pressfield
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
And what does that look like? What's exercise for you?
- SPSteven Pressfield
Uh...
- LFLex Fridman
You go to the gym?
- SPSteven Pressfield
I go to the gym.
- LFLex Fridman
Okay.
- SPSteven Pressfield
Um, I- I have a trainer. I have a couple of guys that I work out with. And, uh, I'll, you know... It's maybe an hour, maybe a little more. I'll do a little warm-up before, stretching afterwards, take a shower, go have breakfast. Um, but it's an intense kind of a thing that I definitely don't wanna do that's hard.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- SPSteven Pressfield
You know?
- LFLex Fridman
So you feel like you've accomplished something, first thing.
- SPSteven Pressfield
Yeah. Yeah.
Episode duration: 1:27:28
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