Susan Cain: The Power of Introverts and Loneliness | Lex Fridman Podcast #298

1. 0:00 – 0:51

   Introduction

   1. SCSusan Cain0:00

      ... people whose favorite songs are their happy songs play it on their playlist about 175 times. But the people who love sad music play them about 800 times.

   2. LFLex Fridman0:09

      (laughs)

   3. SCSusan Cain0:10

      (laughs) And then, and they say that they feel connected to the sublime when they're listening to that music. The longing for what you lack is the very thing that gives you what you're longing for, so the longing is the cure.

   4. LFLex Fridman0:25

      The following is a conversation with Susan Cain, author of Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World They Can't Stop Talking, and her most recent book, Bittersweet: How Sorrow and Longing Make Us Whole. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Susan Cain.

2. 0:51 – 18:51

   Introverts

   1. LFLex Fridman0:51

      You've written on your website that, quote, "I prefer listening to talking, reading to socializing, and cozy chats to group settings." So I think this (laughs) conversation on the podcast is gonna be fun. Uh, what's a good definition of an introvert? Is something like those three things a good start?

   2. SCSusan Cain1:10

      It is a good start in terms of how introverts experience day-to-day life. Um, I think a good definition is one that some of your listeners will have heard many times before, you know, the idea of, where do you get your energy? And for some people, they get their energy more from quieter settings, and for other people, they get it more from being out there. Um, so a good rule of thumb is to ask, to imagine that you're at a party that you're really enjoying, and you've been there for about two hours or so, and it's with people you really like, and it's in your favorite place, so it's all good. Um, an extrovert in a setting like that is gonna feel charged up, and they're gonna be looking for the after-party.

   3. LFLex Fridman1:51

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SCSusan Cain1:51

      And an introvert, no matter how good a time they're having and how socially skilled they are, there's this moment where you just, like, wish that you could teleport and be back at home.

   5. LFLex Fridman2:00

      Yeah. And that the time before the start of the party to the, the time when that moment happens is different for different people? So, like, the shorter that is, the more of an issue you are? Is that, that kind of thing?

   6. SCSusan Cain2:10

      The shorter the moment until you get-

   7. LFLex Fridman2:12

      Yeah.

   8. SCSusan Cain2:12

      ... to the place where you've got-

   9. LFLex Fridman2:13

      I, I don't know if I'd ever-

   10. SCSusan Cain2:13

       ... to teleport home. (laughs)

   11. LFLex Fridman2:14

       ... teleport home.

   12. SCSusan Cain2:15

       Yeah. And then for extroverts, it's, it's the opposite, right? Like, they're gonna feel, you know, maybe they're working on, uh, I don't know, like, focused on producing a memo that's really intensely interesting to them. But if they're in that state of, like, solitary, the solitary mode of really focusing, they might get stir-crazy a lot faster-

   13. LFLex Fridman2:35

       Mm-hmm.

   14. SCSusan Cain2:35

       ... than an introvert would. And so it doesn't have so much to do with what you're good at as how you get your energy.

   15. LFLex Fridman2:42

       And so for an introvert, the source of energy is what? Silence, solitude? And for an extrovert, it's interaction with other people?

   16. SCSusan Cain2:53

       What I'd really say is that, and this is neurobiological as well, is that it has to do with, um, how your nervous system reacts to stimulation. So for an introvert, you're feeling in a great state of equilibrium when there are fewer inputs coming at you. So there could be social inputs, but that's why an introvert, in general, (laughs) would rather, like, hang out with one close friend at a time as opposed to, you know, a big party full of strangers, 'cause that's just too many inputs for the nervous system. And for an extrovert, um, the nervous system needs more stimulants. So if they're not getting enough, they get that listless and sluggish feeling.

   17. LFLex Fridman3:28

       So if you're just walking through the world, like people listening to this, but in general, how do you know if you're an introvert? Like, how do you empirically start to determine if you are, in large part, an introvert?

   18. SCSusan Cain3:43

       Well, I would start by just asking that question (laughs) of what happens to you, um, you know, at around-

   19. LFLex Fridman3:48

       Just go to, go to parties, just-

   20. SCSusan Cain3:48

       ... the two-hour mark, "Were you having a good time?" Yeah, like, I, I mean, imagine-

   21. LFLex Fridman3:52

       ... just go to parties every day.

   22. SCSusan Cain3:52

       But, but I also find, um, curious if you have a different experience from this, but from all the years that I've been out there talking about this topic, I found that most people really seem to know once they're being honest with themselves. And maybe that's the question to ask, is, like, if you imagine that you have a Saturday or a whole weekend where you can spend your time exactly the way you want to with no professional obligations and no social obligations, who would you spend it with? How many people? What would you be doing? And, and what does that picture that you're painting start to look like?

   23. LFLex Fridman4:29

       Yeah. So the, there's nuance to this, though, because, um, I'm sure for extroverts to get energized by stimulation, whether that's stimulation with other people, like, it depends what that stimulation is, right? Like, maybe you're not surrounded by the kind of people that you enjoy being around. So, you know, um, maybe that has to do less with whether y- some characteristics of your personality, and more has to do with the fact, well, like, what your environment is like. That's always kind of, uh, the question. Do you wanna be alone because everybody around you is an asshole, or do you wanna be alone because you get energized from being-

   24. SCSusan Cain5:05

       Well, I would hold the variables constant, I guess-

   25. LFLex Fridman5:08

       (laughs)

   26. SCSusan Cain5:08

       ... I would say. (laughs) You know-

   27. LFLex Fridman5:09

       Yes, keep the assholes constant, and see. Um, like, and then there's... The other thing you kind of observed, that there's a lot of people that will say they get energized from being alone, like, people are exhausting to them or something like that. But at the same time, when you see them at a party, they seem like the life of the party.

   28. SCSusan Cain5:30

       I know, and I hear from those people all the time. (laughs)

   29. LFLex Fridman5:33

       (laughs)

   30. SCSusan Cain5:33

       There are so many people like that.
3. 18:51 – 23:45

   Small talk

   1. LFLex Fridman18:51

      small talk, that's another thing.

   2. SCSusan Cain18:54

      (laughs)

   3. LFLex Fridman18:54

      Um, is that part of the equation of introvert versus extrovert?

   4. SCSusan Cain18:58

      Well-

   5. LFLex Fridman18:59

      How much people enjoy small talk?

   6. SCSusan Cain19:01

      I kinda went into this whole thing thinking that it was, but from what I've seen, most people, uh, studies that most people don't like small talk.

   7. LFLex Fridman19:10

      (laughs)

   8. SCSusan Cain19:11

      I think that's why people like your podcasts 'cause you're like-

   9. LFLex Fridman19:13

      Long form.

   10. SCSusan Cain19:13

       ... "Forget the small talk. I'm going deep into it from the very beginning."

   11. LFLex Fridman19:17

       Yeah, so it's actually... Wait, the picture you're painting is like the way you started, like with your, um, with the book Quiet and the way you are today is you realize the picture may be more complicated.

   12. SCSusan Cain19:30

       Yeah, everything is more complicated. (laughs)

   13. LFLex Fridman19:33

       (laughs)

   14. SCSusan Cain19:33

       Um, I will say with the small talk thing that I'm curious if you have this experience, but I find it fantastic to have a career where I'm known for anti-small talk kinds of topics because it means that anywhere I go, like if I show up at a conference or something like that, no one does small talk with me. They're like telling me about the deep truth of their lives from the first hello.

   15. LFLex Fridman20:01

       Mm-hmm.

   16. SCSusan Cain20:02

       And I love that. And in normal life, you have to like wade through a lot before you know if people are ready to go there.

   17. LFLex Fridman20:09

       Yeah.

   18. SCSusan Cain20:09

       Do you have that experience too?

   19. LFLex Fridman20:11

       No, definitely, definitely, with people that know me for sure.

   20. SCSusan Cain20:14

       But you forget how many people feel like they know you because of your podcasts.

   21. LFLex Fridman20:18

       Well, that's what... No, I... That counts-

   22. SCSusan Cain20:19

       Yeah.

   23. LFLex Fridman20:19

       ... 'cause I'm a huge fan of podcasts, and I feel it... Like, before I ever became friends with Joe Rogan, I felt like I was friends with him 'cause I was a fan of his podcast.

   24. SCSusan Cain20:29

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   25. LFLex Fridman20:30

       And so like it was... I don't... I feel like it's a friendship. I know it's a one-way friendship with all the people I listen to in podcasts, and even people who are no longer with us, like writers. I feel like I have a relationship with them. Maybe I'm insane, but there- (laughs)

   26. SCSusan Cain20:43

       No, I totally feel that way. That's the whole reason I became a writer.

   27. LFLex Fridman20:46

       Like, I'm friends with Leonard Cohen. (laughs)

   28. SCSusan Cain20:48

       Yeah. (laughs)

   29. LFLex Fridman20:50

       And he's not aware of it. (laughs)

   30. SCSusan Cain20:52

       (laughs) No, I com- But, but I, I think that's the whole reason for writing or making music or whatever people do, it's-
4. 23:45 – 36:12

   Artistic expression

   1. LFLex Fridman23:45

      I think y- this is on your website, that one of the best things in the world is that sublime moment when a writer, artist, or musician manages to express something you've always felt but never articulated, or at least never quite so beautifully. So that's the, the Oscar Wilde line is one line like that, but just a line from a song, uh, or maybe a piece of art that just grabs you. Is there something that jumps out into memory like that for you?

   2. SCSusan Cain24:11

      I don't know if I have an exact line, though... I mean, that feeling that you just quoted happens to me all the time. I'm just bad at recalling exact instances. But, um- (laughs)

   3. LFLex Fridman24:21

      Me too. (laughs) On the spot.

   4. SCSusan Cain24:22

      But, uh, the writer, Alain de Botton, regularly makes me feel that way. Uh, he's just this beautiful essayist and, like, observer of human nature, and he's just constantly expressing things, um, in this gorgeous way that, that you've experienced yourself. And you feel like... I don't... it's just this grand act of generosity. You know, you feel less lonely, you feel, like, this deep sense of communion. It's, it's such an elevating experience.

   5. LFLex Fridman24:47

      Even when it's, like, a melancholy line.

   6. SCSusan Cain24:50

      Maybe especially when it is.

   7. LFLex Fridman24:52

      Yeah, what is that? (laughs) There's, um... So, uh, the... Jack Kerouac, On the Road definitely makes me feel that way, like every other line in there. Uh, "forlorn rags of growing old."

   8. SCSusan Cain25:05

      Do you know, I never read that book, so what, what, what was it about that book that made you feel that way?

   9. LFLex Fridman25:11

      Well, okay. Well, since you ask-

   10. SCSusan Cain25:13

       I do, I do.

   11. LFLex Fridman25:13

       ... I'm going to linger. I'm, I'm going to linger on this. Uh, so there's a story... He's kind of... The book, the, the kind of defining book of the, of the Beats-

   12. SCSusan Cain25:24

       Mm-hmm.

   13. LFLex Fridman25:25

       ... of the Beat Generation. And it's basically a story of a writer who takes a road trip across the United States a couple of times and experiences a few close friends and a few strangers along the way, and there's a lot of just those melancholy goodbyes along the way. You meet all these people with interesting lives. Some of them are defined by struggle, some of them are defined by drugs, drinking, women, all that kind of stuff, and still he just kind of dances around all of that and is defined by the goodbyes and the passing of time.

   14. SCSusan Cain25:59

       Yeah.

   15. LFLex Fridman25:59

       So, a lot of the really powerful lines are basically, like... Uh, there's that one line again, I don't remember exactly, but he meets a beautiful girl at a, at a rest stop-

   16. SCSusan Cain26:10

       Mm-hmm.

   17. LFLex Fridman26:11

       ... and, uh, the girl is getting on a, or a woman is getting on a, uh, on a different bus than he's getting on. And so it's, it's that, like, feeling of falling in love for, like, a second-

   18. SCSusan Cain26:26

       Mm-hmm.

   19. LFLex Fridman26:27

       ... and realizing that, like, fate is just ripping that out. Which is similar, uh, to this idea of it, it, it sucks to say goodbye just when you met, but it's especially true when you fall in love just a little bit with that stranger, with the, with the, with all the possibilities that could lay there. Um, so there's a few lines I've, I've, uh, written down, just 'cause I went down this whole rabbit hole of thinking, "What are the lines that grab me?" Uh, a couple of lines from On the Road. So, one is, "What is that feeling when you're driving away from people and they recede on the plain till you see their specks dispersing? It's a too-huge world vaulting us, and it's goodbye. But we lean forward to the next crazy venture beneath the skies." So, this is him talking about leaving a particular city.

   20. SCSusan Cain27:11

       Mm-hmm.

   21. LFLex Fridman27:11

       The spoiler alert towards the end of the book, rather the end of the book, line I return too often, it's more poetry, but it's a feeling that captures the book, I would say. "The evening star must be drooping, and shedding her sparkler dims on the prairie, which is just before the coming of complete night that blesses the earth, darkens all the rivers, cups the peaks, and folds the final shore in. And nobody, nobody knows what's going to happen to anybody, besides the forlorn rags of growing old."

   22. SCSusan Cain27:45

       Mm-hmm.

   23. LFLex Fridman27:46

       And it just captures this kind of in-the-moment appreciation of the beauty of the world, and a sadness over the fact that time passes, and you leave the people you love behind, you leave the places you love behind, or at least the way they were at the time that you really enjoyed them, and you just leave that... all that. Just, just the sadness you feel when you real... Something about it. Like, looking at a picture, looking at your kids grow up, looking at old friends getting old, something makes you realize that time passes, and somewhere deep in there is probably a realization of your mortality. And then it just makes you somehow first sad that everything comes to an end, and then that's immediately, um, followed by sort of an appreciation of the moment, like, a gratitude-

   24. SCSusan Cain28:36

       Yeah.

   25. LFLex Fridman28:36

       ... that you get to experience this moment.

   26. SCSusan Cain28:37

       Yeah, I know it exactly. I mean, that's, that's the whole reason that I wrote Bittersweet. It, it's all about that.

   27. LFLex Fridman28:43

       (laughs)

   28. SCSusan Cain28:43

       (laughs) So, I know intensely what you're talking about. And by the way, my husband loves the book A Moveable Feast by Ernest Hemingway, which I also haven't read, but it talks about that same thing. You know, groups of people traveling around together, and the group coalesces into some magical formation, and then one person leaves the group, and it's never gonna be the same again, and then they move on to the next one.

   29. LFLex Fridman29:06

       Yeah.

   30. SCSusan Cain29:06

       Yeah, I mean, I think that's the deepest essence of human nature, um, the feeling of longing for some kind of state of perfect complete- completeness, completion, perfect love, uh, the Garden of Eden, all of it, um, and the feeling that you're never gonna quite attain it, but you get glimpses of it here and there. And that those glimpses are some of the best things that ever happen to us, and they're suffused with sadness because they're not the real thing, or they're not the full thing, they're just a glimpse. There's... It's, it's a glimpse of what we long for.
5. 36:12 – 43:50

   Sad music

   1. SCSusan Cain36:12

      So, you know, why do people listen to sad music? Um, I mean, one reason is...... their hearing expressed for them. Like, the musician is basically saying to them, "This thing that you have experienced, I've experienced it too. So have lots of other people." And, but they're saying it all without words, and it's transformed into something beautiful. And there's something about that that's just incredibly elevating. And people don't know it, but... Like, (laughs) there's one study that I have in, in Bittersweet that found that people whose favorite songs are their happy songs play it on their playlist about 175 times. But the people who love sad music play them about 800 times.

   2. LFLex Fridman36:53

      (laughs)

   3. SCSusan Cain36:53

      (laughs) And then, and they say that they feel connected to the sublime when, when they're listening to that music.

   4. LFLex Fridman37:01

      What, what do you think that is? So what is that? What, what is it in music that connects us to the sublime through sadness?

   5. SCSusan Cain37:11

      I mean, I have a bunch of different theories. Like I, the whole reason I started writing this book is because I kept having this reaction, (laughs) reliably, to sad music. And I realized that for people who I knew who were religious believers, the way they described their experience of God was what I was experiencing when I would hear that music.

   6. LFLex Fridman37:35

      (laughs)

   7. SCSusan Cain37:36

      Uh, like all the time. It happens over and over again.

   8. LFLex Fridman37:39

      So, uh, you, you wonder what that is?

   9. SCSusan Cain37:42

      Um, yeah. So I started wondering what that is. Um, and lots of people have tried to figure out, you know, what that's all about. Um, and there are different theories that it's expressing... it's like a kind of catharsis for our difficult emotions. Um, that it's, as we were saying, a sense of being in it together. We don't react in that sort of uplifted way when you just see, um, like a, a slideshow of sad faces, which is something (laughs) researchers have actually tested.

   10. LFLex Fridman38:12

       (laughs)

   11. SCSusan Cain38:12

       No one really cares when they're seeing the slide-

   12. LFLex Fridman38:14

       Right.

   13. SCSusan Cain38:14

       ... the sad faces. But the sad music, they're really reacting. And, and also, they don't really react when they're hearing music expressing other negative emotions, you know, like martial music or something like that.

   14. LFLex Fridman38:24

       Mm-hmm.

   15. SCSusan Cain38:24

       It's just the sad music that gives people this elevated sense of wonder. So I think it's the combination of the sadness and the beauty, and I think it's just tapping into the essence of the human source code, which is a kind of spiritual longing. Whether we're atheists or believers, there's this feeling of longing for a state and a place of perfect love and perfect unity and perfect truth and all of it, and (laughs) and like an acute awareness that we're not there in this world. And you know, in religions, we express that through the longing for Mecca or, or Eden or Zion. And artistically, we express it with Dorothy longing for Somewhere Over the Rainbow. Or you know, Harry Potter-

   16. LFLex Fridman39:09

       Mm-hmm.

   17. SCSusan Cain39:09

       ... enters the story at the precise moment that he's become an orphan. Um, so he's now gonna spend the rest of his life longing for these parents who he can never remember. And that's... there's something about that state that's at our very core, and I think that's why we love it so much.

   18. LFLex Fridman39:26

       Well, it could be, you know, you could have the Ernest Becker theory of, uh, denial of death, where at the core of that, the warm at the core, as Jung said, is the, uh, fear of death. So where the longing for the perfect thing i- has to do with sort of s- becoming immortal, is, um, reaching beyond the, the absurdity, the cruelty of life that all things come to an end for, for, for no particularly good reason whatsoever (laughs) or one we can rationally explain.

   19. SCSusan Cain40:03

       I know. You know, I wonder about that all the time. Like, I know obviously there's that idea, um, from Becker and throughout philosophy and The Tale of Gilgamesh about the idea that the thing we're longing for most of all is immortality. But I feel like it's not only that. I think it's more so or also, let's say, um, a longing for the lions to lay down with the lambs finally, you know? For like the, the fundamental calculus of the universe to just be different, where life doesn't have to eat life in order to survive. And yeah, just a completely different situation-

   20. LFLex Fridman40:42

       I wonder.

   21. SCSusan Cain40:42

       ... that, that immortality would not solve.

   22. LFLex Fridman40:45

       I wonder. That could be a very kinda, uh, modern thing. 'Cause, oh, surely so much of human history is defined by violence and glorified violence that doesn't give inklings of this lions and the lambs. Sh- so much of-

   23. SCSusan Cain41:04

       It's in the Bible.

   24. LFLex Fridman41:05

       Yeah, well... May-

   25. SCSusan Cain41:07

       I mean, I know all the other stuff is in the Bible too. (laughs)

   26. LFLex Fridman41:09

       There's other stuff in the Bible.

   27. SCSusan Cain41:10

       Sure.

   28. LFLex Fridman41:10

       And the Bible is nece- that particular aspect doesn't necessarily reveal the fundamental motivation of human nature. There could be deeper stuff, you know? But th- yeah, that is a beautiful, that is a beautiful picture. But I mean, is it just about humans or is it all ab- about, um, about all of life? And you have to think about what does the perfect world look like? It's not just the lions and the lambs laying together. It's, you know, how many lions and how many lambs?

   29. SCSusan Cain41:41

       Right, right.

   30. LFLex Fridman41:42

       And uh, you know, what (laughs) having just had a few, uh, very technical conversations about e- Marxian economics versus Keynesian economics versus neoclassical economics, what, what does the economic and the government system look like for the lions and the lambs (laughs) -
6. 43:50 – 54:43

   Leonard Cohen

   1. LFLex Fridman43:50

      before I leave, 'cause you mentioned songs, sad songs.

   2. SCSusan Cain43:53

      Mm-hmm.

   3. LFLex Fridman43:53

      What, um, what are we talking about? What, what's a good... What, when, what song do you remember last crying to?

   4. SCSusan Cain43:59

      Oh, gosh. Well, I mean, (laughs) as you know-

   5. LFLex Fridman44:02

      (laughs) Don't say Taylor Swift. Uh-

   6. SCSusan Cain44:02

      ... I, I, so I, I literally, I literally dedicated my book to Leonard Cohen.

   7. LFLex Fridman44:08

      Yes.

   8. SCSusan Cain44:08

      He's played such a huge role in my life. Like, I love him. I love him, um-

   9. LFLex Fridman44:14

      Which, uh...

   10. SCSusan Cain44:14

       ... and I, I've loved him with this crazy love that I've never been able to understand for decades.

   11. LFLex Fridman44:19

       Well-

   12. SCSusan Cain44:19

       I think I understand it a little better now. But... (laughs)

   13. LFLex Fridman44:21

       (laughs) So you guys-

   14. SCSusan Cain44:22

       But-

   15. LFLex Fridman44:22

       So you're better friends with him than me. I'm jealous.

   16. SCSusan Cain44:24

       (laughs) But-

   17. LFLex Fridman44:25

       So, uh, um, does it make you... Is it the, the musician or the human too? Because th- the human is a, is, is a tortured soul in a way.

   18. SCSusan Cain44:34

       I'd say it's the musician. It's the musician, and I actually was thinking about this the other day. I mean, obviously he's not alive anymore, but I was kind of running the thought experiment, you know, if he were alive still and I had the chance to meet him in person, would I wanna do that?

   19. LFLex Fridman44:50

       Mm-hmm.

   20. SCSusan Cain44:50

       And I'm not really sure that I would, because he represents for me symbolically everything, well, everything. I'll, I'll, I'll end the sentence right there.

   21. LFLex Fridman45:04

       (laughs)

   22. SCSusan Cain45:04

       And so... And, and I think that's okay, you know? I think people can, can express something through their art that they might or might not express if you were just like hanging out with them and having a coffee. And I'm happy to know him that way.

   23. LFLex Fridman45:17

       He can express himself, I'm sure, in the way that you know him as over coffee too.

   24. SCSusan Cain45:23

       Yeah, maybe he would-

   25. LFLex Fridman45:23

       Just, it just requires, um, like a focus of remembering, of like a deep focus of connection. That's why, like, when I, I interact with folks, um, it's so draining for me, because I'm putting all my, whatever weapons I got-

   26. SCSusan Cain45:43

       (laughs)

   27. LFLex Fridman45:43

       ... in terms of, like, deeply trying to understand the person in front of me.

   28. SCSusan Cain45:47

       Mm-hmm.

   29. LFLex Fridman45:48

       And doing that dance of human interaction, the, the humor, the intense kind of delving into who they are. Um, so it, which requires, like, n- uh, navigating around, like, small talk type of stuff, and, and just, like, compliments and so on. In general, like, pe- people, depending on the culture, depending on the place, they'll sometimes flower stuff with smiling and, like, compliments. Like, "Oh, I love you. This is great," da-da-da. Like, it's, that's all great, but you wanna get to the core of, like, (laughs) what are the demons in the closet? Let's talk about it.

   30. SCSusan Cain46:21

       (laughs)
7. 54:43 – 1:01:59

   Public speaking

   1. LFLex Fridman54:43

      you're also an exceptionally good public speaker, and you're not sup- supposed to be, mathematically speaking. (laughs)

   2. SCSusan Cain54:51

      Mathematically speaking?

   3. LFLex Fridman54:52

      You're not supposed to be a good public speaker.

   4. SCSusan Cain54:54

      Oh, you mean because of shyness? Or...

   5. LFLex Fridman54:56

      Yeah, because of shyness, because of introversion, because of all those kinds of things.

   6. SCSusan Cain54:59

      Oh, yeah. But lots of introverts are public speakers, actually. Like, this is one of... (laughs) I- I- I knew this from the studies, but then also when I started going out on the lecture circuit, I realized that all my fellow speakers at all these conferences I was going to-

   7. LFLex Fridman55:12

      Yeah.

   8. SCSusan Cain55:12

      ... they're all introverts, 'cause, you know, they're all p- people who, like, spent years figuring out some idea, and now they're out there talking about it.

   9. LFLex Fridman55:19

      Oh, they're in- in their head figuring out the idea?

   10. SCSusan Cain55:22

       Yeah. Yeah.

   11. LFLex Fridman55:22

       So how do you explain, how do you explain that the- the- the public speakers... Would you say that good public speakers are usually introverts?

   12. SCSusan Cain55:30

       No, I think there's just different styles of it, and I think that we just have... When we hear the word "public speaker," we have a really limited idea of who that person would be. Um, so for me, like, (laughs) I used to be very phobic about public speaking, and part of the reason for it was because I thought that being the per- kind of person I was didn't equal being able to be a good public speaker. 'Cause you're- you're only imagining, you know, like the- the super, kind of out there showman. Um, but I think there's another style of public speaking that's more reflective and thoughtful in conveying ideas, and people like that too.

   13. LFLex Fridman56:08

       Is there advice you can give on how to overcome that? Like, if you're a shy person-

   14. SCSusan Cain56:13

       Oh, yeah.

   15. LFLex Fridman56:13

       ... how to be a public speaker?

   16. SCSusan Cain56:15

       (laughs) I can totally give that advice, because I used to, before I would give speeches, you know, if I had to do it in law school, if I knew, like, today was the day when I was gonna get called on, in a law school class, I literally one time vomited on my way to class.

   17. LFLex Fridman56:29

       Nice.

   18. SCSusan Cain56:29

       Like, that's how nervous I used to be. Um, and, yeah, the way to do it is through desensitization. You know, it's, like, been figured out. It's the way to overcome any fear. You have to expose yourself to the thing you fear, but in very small doses. So, you can't start by giving the TED Talk. (laughs) You have to start... I- I- I started by going to this class for people with public speaking anxiety-

   19. LFLex Fridman56:52

       (laughs)

   20. SCSusan Cain56:53

       ... where (laughs) on the first day, all we had to do was stand up and say our name-

   21. LFLex Fridman56:57

       Yeah.

   22. SCSusan Cain56:57

       ... and sit down.

   23. LFLex Fridman56:59

       Uh-

   24. SCSusan Cain56:59

       And, like, that's the victory.

   25. LFLex Fridman57:01

       That- that's fun to watch all those people with anxiety, just... (laughs) "Okay, that's the first step, and then step... One step at a time."

   26. SCSusan Cain57:08

       Yeah, and then, like, with his class, you go back the next week, and- and he would have us come to the front of the room and stand up with other people standing next to us-

   27. LFLex Fridman57:18

       Yeah.

   28. SCSusan Cain57:18

       ... so that you didn't have the feeling of being all alone in the spotlight through others sharing it with you. And you would answer some questions about, "Where'd you grow up?" You know, "Where'd you go to school?" And you declare victory, and you're done.

   29. LFLex Fridman57:31

       (laughs)

   30. SCSusan Cain57:31

       And then little by little by little, you keep ratcheting up the exercises until you get to the- the point where you can do it. And then you start having successes, and you realize, "Oh, you know, actually I can do this."
8. 1:01:59 – 1:09:34

   Podcasts

   1. SCSusan Cain1:01:59

   2. LFLex Fridman1:01:59

      Yeah.

   3. SCSusan Cain1:01:59

      ... like I fell in love with podcasts originally, before there was ever this whole video component to it. And I realized there's something so primal and magical about-

   4. LFLex Fridman1:02:09

      Oh, just talking to people.

   5. SCSusan Cain1:02:09

      ... having someone's voice in your ear.

   6. LFLex Fridman1:02:11

      Oh, yeah.

   7. SCSusan Cain1:02:12

      Um, and my favorite kinds of interviews still, very few people do it this way nowadays, but my favorite kind are when it, you're just talking into the microphone. So it's not over Zoom, it's not in person, it's just you and the microphone, and the other person and the microphone, and they're in your ear.

   8. LFLex Fridman1:02:28

      Yeah.

   9. SCSusan Cain1:02:28

      It's like the ultimate in intimacy. So-

   10. LFLex Fridman1:02:30

       Oh, you mean from the interviewer perspective, that's like your favorite.

   11. SCSusan Cain1:02:33

       Yeah, yeah, but I, but it would be interesting also as, with the kind of thing you're talking about, of just speaking, like just you and the mic.

   12. LFLex Fridman1:02:40

       I would love to be in person, but you can't see the person. I wonder what that's like, could speak to-

   13. SCSusan Cain1:02:44

       What do you mean? Like, they're all there, but behind a curtain, or-

   14. LFLex Fridman1:02:47

       No, just have your eyes closed.

   15. SCSusan Cain1:02:48

       Oh.

   16. LFLex Fridman1:02:48

       You just talk, and you have your eyes closed, or whatever you have, because I think you still have, get the same kind of chemistry 'cause it, it's not just the visual. I, I don't even know that 'cause obviously I have trouble making eye contact. Um, (laughs) but this, I don't know if the visual stimulation is the necessary thing. There's something about the way audio travels that captures the intimacy. Where some people actually have headphones on, like Joe does this, have headphones on, that's really intimate. Like, there's something about that sound going directly into your ear.

   17. SCSusan Cain1:03:18

       Exactly, yeah, yeah.

   18. LFLex Fridman1:03:19

       Yeah, there is something primal there. Yeah, for sure. I've, I've, I've, uh, I've thought about it, definitely. And some of my favorite podcasts are like that. Uh, WTF with Marc Maron, that's audio only. There's, there's a few audio only podcasts that I just love. And what is that? I still go on, uh, Clubhouse, that, that was a, that's a social media platform where it's audio only. And it's so interesting that people... uh, the interesting thing about Clubhouse, in particular, is people from all walks of life can tune in, and they just-

   19. SCSusan Cain1:03:48

       Mm-hmm.

   20. LFLex Fridman1:03:49

       ... it's-

   21. SCSusan Cain1:03:49

       Yeah.

   22. LFLex Fridman1:03:50

       ... I have, it's, it's, uh, somebody needs to do some research in terms of introversion on that one, because I don't feel any of my introvert, um, like triggers happening.

   23. SCSusan Cain1:04:02

       Mm-hmm.

   24. LFLex Fridman1:04:03

       Because, uh, so nobody can see you, it's just audio. And nobody is offended if you're just sitting there quietly just listening. So you can, you can participate whenever you want or not. And that's-

   25. SCSusan Cain1:04:16

       Yeah, it's like the ultimate social freedom.

   26. LFLex Fridman1:04:18

       Yeah.

   27. SCSusan Cain1:04:18

       You can listen as much as you'd like. You can participate if you want, but you don't have to. It's no big deal.

   28. LFLex Fridman1:04:22

       Yeah.

   29. SCSusan Cain1:04:23

       Yeah, yeah.

   30. LFLex Fridman1:04:23

       'Cause nobody can, like, if I'm actually at a physical party, somebody's gonna look at me-
9. 1:09:34 – 1:24:55

   Famous Blue Raincoat by Leonard Cohen

   1. LFLex Fridman1:09:34

      Uh, what's your favorite Leonard Cohen song?

   2. SCSusan Cain1:09:36

      Famous Blue Raincoat. Do you know that one?

   3. LFLex Fridman1:09:38

      Yeah, yeah. I, maybe I'll play it real quick.

   4. SCSusan Cain1:09:40

      Yeah. For people who don't know (laughs) Leonard Cohen, and this is your first introduction to him, it's gonna sound so gloomy, but it's so good.

   5. LFLex Fridman1:09:49

      His, he's got this deep, rich voice. Tori Amos covering Famous Blue Raincoat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No.

   6. SCSusan Cain1:09:55

      Mm-hmm.

   7. LFLex Fridman1:09:56

      We want, we want, we want the original. Just like Hallelujah, Jeff Buckley covered, uh, Leonard Cohen. That was a really good one.

   8. SCSusan Cain1:10:03

      That was a really good one. Yeah, and I also really like Rufus Wainwright's cover. Um, but Famous Blue Raincoat, for people who don't know it, it's basically about a love triangle, and it's told from the perspective of a man whose wife has just been with another guy who is also his friend. And he's writing a letter to that other guy, and, um, and he's reflecting on the way that all their relationships have changed in- in the wake of this- this event. (laughs) And-

   9. LFLex Fridman1:10:34

      So, they're still friends.

   10. SCSusan Cain1:10:36

       So, they're still f- ... Well, he- he refers to him as my brother, my killer, which is such a Leonard Cohen thing to do, because it's always like, you know, it's light and it's dark all at once. Nothing is ever all one thing.

   11. LFLex Fridman1:10:52

       (instrumental music) Yeah. I love this song.

   12. SCSusan Cain1:11:02

       Yeah, right? I mean ...

   13. LFLex Fridman1:11:04

       (instrumental music) He just speaks in it.

   14. SCSusan Cain1:11:15

       It's 4:00 in the morning. The end of December. I'm writing... And the fact that it's 4:00 in the morning and it's the end of December, like those are transitional moments, you know? New York is cold and dark. It's night going into day. Like where I'm living. And it's December going into the new year. That's- Music on Parkson Street. ... that's not an accident. All through the evening.

   15. LFLex Fridman1:11:39

       There is something about December. There's, whatever. There's certain scenes you can paint in your mind. Um, there's a, there's a poem by Charles Bukowski called Nirvana. It's a, it's a young man traveling through the middle of nowhere in the snow. There's something about the snow. Either the rain or the snow-

   16. SCSusan Cain1:11:57

       (laughs) Yeah.

   17. LFLex Fridman1:11:58

       ... can put you in a certain kind of mood that just, uh, what is it? James Joyce, The Dead, "The s- the snow is falling on Dublin." Uh-

   18. SCSusan Cain1:12:07

       Yeah.

   19. LFLex Fridman1:12:07

       ... yeah, it can put you in a place.

   20. SCSusan Cain1:12:09

       I mean, David Yaden, who's a, he's a researcher in psychedelics and consciousness at- at Johns Hopkins. He's a great guy. And, um, he's done research that has found that when people are in their transitional moments of life, you know, and it could be a career change, it could be a divorce, it could be that they're nearing the end of their life, that they very often will say those are their most meaningful moments and their most spiritual moments. And- and so I feel like that's what Leonard Cohen knows how to tap into instinctively.

   21. LFLex Fridman1:12:39

       Yeah.

   22. SCSusan Cain1:12:39

       The year after he died, his son, Adam Cohen, made a memorial concert for him where all these famous musicians came to Montreal where- where they had lived, um, and performed his music. And my husband, who's not a Leonard Cohen fan, and he's not a Bittersweet type at all, but he knows how I feel about him.

   23. LFLex Fridman1:12:57

       Mm-hmm.

   24. SCSusan Cain1:12:57

       He was like, "You know, you should really go to that concert." Um, and I felt so-... ridiculous. The whole family, like, went all the way to Montreal on a Monday.

   25. LFLex Fridman1:13:05

       Nice.

   26. SCSusan Cain1:13:05

       Um...

   27. LFLex Fridman1:13:06

       On a Monday?

   28. SCSusan Cain1:13:07

       On a Monday. It was just, like, a random Monday, and we got on the plane, so, like, everyone's out of school just so I can go, (laughs) go to this concert. And, um, and I got there, and at the beginning, I was feeling like, "Ugh, this was all a terrible mistake," because it's all these other musicians playing this music, and I don't actually really wanna hear them. Like, I'd rather listen to him on YouTube.

   29. LFLex Fridman1:13:32

       Yeah.

   30. SCSusan Cain1:13:32

       Um, and then, and then a musician named Damien Rice came and played Famous Blue Raincoat, and he sang it. And he, he did the most amazing thing at the end. Li- uh, the whole thing was amazing, but then at the end, he sang this musical riff that was like, all I could say is it, it was like a musical lamentation of the ages. And the whole audience just rose silently to its feet. And it was one of the greatest moments-

Episode duration: 1:59:43