Tal Wilkenfeld: Music, Guitar, Bass, Jeff Beck, Prince, and Leonard Cohen | Lex Fridman Podcast #408

Tal Wilkenfeld 0:00 I am standing on the edge of the cliff the entire night. And if I, you know, mess something up, mess it up, like what even is a mistake? But if I do like a little clunker or whatever it is, it's like, so what? I, like, I wouldn't have played half the stuff that I'm playing if I wasn't constantly standing on the edge of the cliff like wild.

Lex Fridman 0:22 Mm-hmm. Why, why are you standing on the edge of the cliff?

Tal Wilkenfeld 0:24 Because at the edge of the cliff is all possibilities.

Lex Fridman 0:30 The following is a conversation with Tal Wilkenfeld, a singer-songwriter, bassist, guitarist, and a true musician who has recorded and performed with many legendary artists, including Jeff Beck, Prince, Eric Clapton, Incubus, Herbie Hancock, Mick Jagger, Jackson Browne, Rod Stewart, David Gilmour, Pharrell, Hans Zimmer, and many, many more. This was a fun and fascinating conversation. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Tal Wilkenfeld.

Lex Fridman 1:08 There's a legendary video of you playing with Jeff Beck. We're actually watching it in the background now. (instrumental music plays) So, for people who don't know, Jeff is one of the greatest guitarists ever. Ah, so you're playing with him at the 2007, uh, Crossroads Festival?

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:23 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:24 And people should definitely watch that video. You were killing it on the (laughs) on the bass. Look at that face. (laughs) Uh, were you scared? What was the experience like? Were you nervous? You don't look nervous.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:36 Uh, yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:37 You look confident.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:38 Yeah, I'm, I wasn't nervous. I, I think that you can get an adrenaline rush before a stage, which is natural, but I think as soon as you bring fear to a bandstand, you're, you're like limiting yourself. You're kind of like walling yourself off from everyone else. If you're afraid, like what is there to be afraid of? Th- that you must be afraid of making a mistake and therefore you're coming at it as like a perfectionist, and you can't come at music that way or it's not gonna be as expansive and vulnerable and true. So, no, I was excited and passionate and having the, having the best time. And also, you know, the fact that he gave me this solo, the context of this performance is that this was a guitar festival. It's one of the biggest guitar festivals in the world 'cause it's Eric Clapton's festival. And there's like 400 guitarists that are all playing like solos all night, and we were like towards the end of the night. And I, I could tell like Jeff like got like a kick out of, you know, "I'm, I'm not gonna solo on like one of my most well-known songs, Cosimo and Benanda's Lovers." Well, Stevie Wonder wrote it, but it's the, people know Jeff for that song and his solo on it. He's like, "I'm gonna give it to my bass player." And like, and he did, and like-

Lex Fridman 3:02 He took it.

Tal Wilkenfeld 3:03 ... the fact that he's like vowing and like... That, that, that, like he didn't have to do that.

Lex Fridman 3:09 But you really-

Tal Wilkenfeld 3:09 So...

Lex Fridman 3:09 ... stepped up there.

Tal Wilkenfeld 3:12 It just, it just shows what a generous musician he is, and that's evident in his playing across the board that he's, he is a generous, loving, open musician. He's not there for himself. He's there for the music. And he thought, "Well, this would be the perfect musical thing to do." Um, and it kind of all started like when I went to audition for him, uh, which was an interesting experience because I got, (laughs) I got food poisoning-

Lex Fridman 3:43 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 3:44 ... um, on the plane. And so, like literally when the plane landed, I went straight into an ambulance into, um, a hospital overnight. The manager picked me up and I showed up at Jeff's door, which is like a three-hour drive like through windy country roads. And he answered the door and he's like, "Okay, you ready to play?" (laughs) So, we went upstairs and started like rattling off the set. And when it came to this song, Cosimo and Benanda's Lovers, he just said, "Solo." And he, he loved it and kept the solo in it. So, that's kind of how... 'Cause th- there was no bass solo before I was playing in his band. So, this whole thing was kind of new.

Lex Fridman 4:24 So, even with food poisoning, like you, you could step up?

Tal Wilkenfeld 4:27 Yeah. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 4:28 That's just like what? Instinct?

Tal Wilkenfeld 4:30 It's just being able to differentiate from like the body and from like expression music.

Lex Fridman 4:35 All right.

Tal Wilkenfeld 4:36 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 4:37 You know, it's interesting you said fear walls you off from the other musicians. And what are you afraid of? You're afraid of making a mistake. You know, uh, Beethoven said, "To play a wrong note is insignificant. To play without passion is inexcusable."

Tal Wilkenfeld 4:52 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 4:52 Do you think, uh, the old man had a point?

Tal Wilkenfeld 4:54 Yeah. Different styles of music invite, uh, varying degrees of, um, I would say uncertainty or unsafety in, in the way that people might perceive it. So for instance, like the tour that I was just on, like playing Allman Brothers songs.

Lex Fridman 5:14 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 5:15 Like, I am standing on the edge of the cliff the entire night. And if I, you know, mess something up, mess it up, like what even is a mistake? But if I do like a little clunker or whatever it is, it's like, so what? I, like, I wouldn't have played half the stuff that I'm playing if I wasn't constantly standing on the edge of the cliff like wild.

Lex Fridman 5:38 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 5:38 And so, I don't care about those few little things. I care about the overall expression. And then there's other gigs that, you know, for instance, if I got called for like a pop or country session or a show, th- in those environments, they may want you to play safe. Like, "Just play the part."... and play it with a great groove and time, and great dynamics, and don't really veer away from the part and stuff. And, and I've done plenty of those gigs too. It's just, it's just a different, like, hat you put on.

Lex Fridman 6:14 What do you get from the veering? From the veering off the beaten path? Do you just love it? Or is that gonna make the performance better? Like, why- why- why stand at the edge of the cliff?

Tal Wilkenfeld 6:28 Because at the edge of the cliff is all possibilities-

Lex Fridman 6:32 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 6:32 ... and unknown. You don't know what's coming, and I love being there in the unknown. It, otherwise, it's just like, "Well, why are we doing this? Am I, am I just, like, a clown on stage, like, showing you my skills or what, you know, what I've studied in my bedroom?" It's like, no. Like, I- I want to be, like, pure expression happening right now and responding in real time to everything that's happening. And anytime I'm not doing that, it's like, it's a waste of everybody's time.

Lex Fridman 7:06 Have you ever messed it up real bad?

Tal Wilkenfeld 7:09 Mess what up?

Lex Fridman 7:10 (laughs) I mean, you know comedians bomb. You're a big fan of comedy.

Tal Wilkenfeld 7:13 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 7:14 Have you ever bombed on stage?

Tal Wilkenfeld 7:16 Probably. I think, I think it's all about recovery, you know? And the more times that you fall off the cliff-

Lex Fridman 7:23 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 7:23 ... the quicker you know how to recover, and, um, the- the varying ways that you can recover, to- to the point in which it's concealed so much that maybe a listener might not even know that you're recovering.

Lex Fridman 7:38 And eventually, you learn to fly, if we take that metaphor all the way, off the cliff. You know, you learn, all right.

Tal Wilkenfeld 7:43 I remember one time, when I was really young-

Lex Fridman 7:46 Uh-huh.

Tal Wilkenfeld 7:47 ... well, not really young, but like, when I was 21 or-

Lex Fridman 7:51 What does aging look like?

Tal Wilkenfeld 7:52 ... 22. Yeah, exactly. Um, but when I was first playing with Jeff Beck, and we played at what I consider the best, the coolest jazz festival. It's Montreux Jazz.

Lex Fridman 8:05 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 8:05 And like, Miles played there. Everyone played there, and they have the best speaker system ever. I was excited for months. And the drummer, Vinnie, was like, practicing for like, eight hours in the bus on the way there, and everyone was like, on fire on stage. And I remember playing a note, just one note, that I really didn't like, and I let it go in the moment on stage. But as soon as I got off stage, I was really sad. And so I sat, like, on this road case. Everyone was out celebrating. I like, sat on this road case with a sad face, like, "Boo-hoo." And then Claude Nobs, like the owner of the, you know, the whole festival came up to me. He's like, "Tal, what's wrong?" And I'm like, "I played a bad note." (laughs)

Lex Fridman 8:55 (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 8:55 I was such a child. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 8:57 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 8:57 And like, he- he said all this wise stuff that, you know, Miles Davis has, had imparted to him, and like, it fully cheered me up. Um, he's like, "Is there anything that would make you feel better?" And I was like, "Caviar?" (laughs)

Lex Fridman 9:13 (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 9:13 The dude came back 10 minutes later-

Lex Fridman 9:16 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 9:16 ... with this huge thing. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 9:18 Oh, wow.

Tal Wilkenfeld 9:19 It was a joke. It was a joke, but he actually brought me caviar

Narrator 9:21 He actually did.

Tal Wilkenfeld 9:22 ... I think. But anyway, that's the, that's the one time that I remember being sad about a performance. Now, I'm just like, "Okay, whatever." Like, it's done.

Lex Fridman 9:30 Was it a-

Tal Wilkenfeld 9:30 It's gone.

Lex Fridman 9:30 ... physical slip of like, the fingers? Or was it, did you intend to play that note?

Tal Wilkenfeld 9:35 That I can't remember. I- I- I can't remember if it was just a bad choice that I, that sounded like a clanger-

Lex Fridman 9:42 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 9:42 ... or why it happened. It was so long ago, but I- I don't get depressed about that anymore.

Lex Fridman 9:48 That'd be funny if that was like, your biggest and only regret in life, is that note.

Tal Wilkenfeld 9:51 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 9:51 And it haunted you in your dreams.

Tal Wilkenfeld 9:53 And then like, you know, like, I'm on my deathbed and just everyone's just bringing me caviar because of the one note. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 9:58 (laughs) Joke went

Lex Fridman 10:00 way too far. You- you talked about confidence somewhere. I don't remember where. So, I want to ask you about how much confidence it takes to be up there. You said something that Anthony Jackson told you as encouragement, a line that I really like. That quote, "On your worst day, you're still a bad motherfucker."

Tal Wilkenfeld 10:17 That's actually a- a Steve Gadd quote.

Lex Fridman 10:19 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 10:20 And Steve used to tell that to Anthony 'cause Anthony used to get real depressed if he did a wrong thing or not perfect thing. And Steve Gadd used to say this to Anthony Jackson, and then Anthony was my first bass mentor, or just mentor in general.

Lex Fridman 10:35 For people who don't know, he's a legendary bassist.

Tal Wilkenfeld 10:37 He's a legendary bassist, and I- I started playing the bass when I was 17, and I moved to New York, and I met Anthony, and he started mentoring me but in a very not typical way. Like, he like, would just sit in his car with me for hours and talk music, and-

Lex Fridman 10:55 You guys just listened to music-

Tal Wilkenfeld 10:56 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 10:56 ... and analyze it?

Tal Wilkenfeld 10:57 Exactly. Um, and that was the best form of learning, I think. Just like, "Well, what do you perceive here?" And, "Oh, well, I heard this," and just discussing that. Um-

Lex Fridman 11:08 Jazz usually, or ?

Tal Wilkenfeld 11:09 No, all st- all styles of music. And uh, yeah, he told me that story about, "On your worst day..." Because, you know, like yeah, even then, like when I was like, 18, 19, I'd get sad sometimes about performances.

Lex Fridman 11:22 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 11:22 Like, "I coulda done this." It's like, I don't do that anymore, thankfully, o- or I'd be miserable. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 11:29 So, you still, you always kinda feel pretty good?

Tal Wilkenfeld 11:31 Yeah. Yeah, now I do. Now, now it's just I- I- I sense the body feeling fatigued.

Lex Fridman 11:37 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 11:38 Especially if it's a very long show, like the ones I just did were three-hour shows, and we did, you know, one to three-hour sound checks. So, that's a lot of physical activity every day.

Lex Fridman 11:47 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 11:47 Um, so I just feel the body being tired, like, fatigued. The ears are fatigued. That's about it. I- I don't really reflect on the show much.

Lex Fridman 11:59 You're almost like, from a third person perspective, feel the body get tired and just-... accept it?

Tal Wilkenfeld 12:05 Yeah, I don't wanna identify with it 'cause then I'm, like, then I, then I'm tired. But I'm not tired.

Lex Fridman 12:09 It's very zen.

Tal Wilkenfeld 12:09 I'm usually, like, energized.

Lex Fridman 12:12 It's like with the food poisoning, the mind is still-

Tal Wilkenfeld 12:14 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 12:15 ... capable of creative genius even if the body is gone.

Tal Wilkenfeld 12:18 Yeah. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 12:19 Something like that?

Tal Wilkenfeld 12:21 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 12:22 So, no self-critical component to the way you see your performances anymore?

Tal Wilkenfeld 12:28 There is, uh, there is critique, but not in the way that it would diminish my sense of self. It's different.

Lex Fridman 12:39 Sure.

Tal Wilkenfeld 12:39 I can just kind of look at something and be like, "Oh, okay, well, actually next time I'll, I'll do this choice and this choice maybe. Maybe this would serve the song better. Um, maybe this would help, uh, the groove feel more like this." But it's not like, "I suck because I did this and I'm a loser," and like...

Lex Fridman 12:58 Do you think that's bad? 'Cause I, even, uh, when I asked that question, I had a self-critical thought then I'm, "Why'd you ask that question? That's the wrong question." I always have the self-critical engine running. Is it necessarily a bad thing?

Tal Wilkenfeld 13:12 It depends if it's affecting you negatively. If-

Lex Fridman 13:14 What is negative anyway?

Tal Wilkenfeld 13:15 Well, if, if it brings your frequency down and you feel less joyful inside and less, you don't feel like complete, you feel less than, less worthy of something, then you could call that bad if you aspire to not feel that way.

Lex Fridman 13:35 Yeah, I aspire to not feel that way in the big picture.

Tal Wilkenfeld 13:37 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 13:37 But in the little picture, like there's a, pain is, a little pain is good.

Tal Wilkenfeld 13:41 That's fair.

Lex Fridman 13:43 So confidence, you seem like in this performance you seem confident. You seem to be truly walking the, the bad motherfucker way of life.

Tal Wilkenfeld 13:52 (laughs) Uh, I kind of, a word that I prefer over confidence is trust because I think with confidence is almost like there's, there's a belief assigned to it that-

Lex Fridman 14:06 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 14:06 ... I am this thing-

Lex Fridman 14:08 Ego.

Tal Wilkenfeld 14:08 ... that you believe in. Whereas trust is just simply knowing that you can get up there and handle whatever is gonna come your way.

Lex Fridman 14:18 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 14:18 And it's more, it's more, it's more of an open feeling where it's like, "Yeah, I could, I could do this. Sure." But not like, "I'm a bad motherfucker." Like, you know what I mean?

Lex Fridman 14:27 (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 14:28 There's a dif- there's a huge difference 'cause I've shared the stage with people who have a lot of confidence and it can be, uh, like a brick wall just like fear is a brick wall.

Lex Fridman 14:40 So, the brick wall is a bad thing? Like, the thing you have with Jeff here on stage-

Tal Wilkenfeld 14:44 Is not a brick wall.

Lex Fridman 14:45 There's no wall.

Tal Wilkenfeld 14:45 Uh-huh.

Lex Fridman 14:45 There's chemistry.

Tal Wilkenfeld 14:46 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 14:47 How can you explain that chemistry, the, the two of you had?

Tal Wilkenfeld 14:49 Trust and lack of fear. Yeah. And also I will say, you know, that, uh, each individual has developed likes and dislikes over their lifetime and that can be like, w- in this case we're just talking aesthetic likes and dislikes. So, in this particular case obviously our likes and dislikes are very much aligned such that the things I do to complement him he enjoys and vice versa. But it could be two, you know, very trusting open, uh, musicians on stage that don't have walls up but their choices are very different, and one person likes heavy metal and the other person likes classical.

Lex Fridman 15:31 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 15:31 So, it's, it's gotta be both.

Lex Fridman 15:33 So, you guys were good at like "yes, and-ing" each other musically, like?

Tal Wilkenfeld 15:37 Definitely.

Lex Fridman 15:37 Is that where you're most at peace, in a meditative way, is on stage?

Tal Wilkenfeld 15:46 Um, it used to be that it would only be on stage. It started with that.

Lex Fridman 15:50 Okay.

Tal Wilkenfeld 15:50 That was almost like my way into flow state, and meditation was playing music. And then, uh, back in the day when I'd kind of crash after shows I wanted to change that. I wanted to always feel like I'm in flow state. So...

Lex Fridman 16:09 Have you succeeded?

Tal Wilkenfeld 16:11 I've gotten a lot better. I'm still o- obviously on the journey, but yes.

Lex Fridman 16:17 So, you meditate, and I think you said somewhere that you meditate before shows or just in general?

Tal Wilkenfeld 16:21 Uh, I meditate every day. Um, when I'm on tour with my band I ask that we all meditate together for at least 20 minutes, and I don't dictate what, which type of meditation. I don't put on a guided meditation 'cause everyone has their own thing they wanna do. Maybe someone might be praying in their head. It doesn't matter, it's just the idea that we all put our phones down and we all are in one room connecting energetically, spiritually, and just letting our lives go for a second. And then we walk straight on the stage, and it's always really connected. And there were a couple of gigs where we ran out of time for that and I could tell. There was a, there was a major difference in the performance.

Lex Fridman 17:07 So, both connects you and centers you, all of those things?

Tal Wilkenfeld 17:11 Yeah. But then when I'm home, like, I love to meditate and I've tried various styles of meditation and studied various types of things. So, I, I don't do just one thing. I kind of customize it depending on where I'm at in my life.

Lex Fridman 17:30 You and the world lost Jeff Beck a year ago. You told me you really miss him. How has the pain of losing Jeff changed you, maybe deepened your sense of the world?

Tal Wilkenfeld 17:42 Hmm. You know, it's hard to accept that we won't create something musically again in this lifetime. Um... But in terms of the grief, grief was easier for me because I went through a major grief period in 2016, uh, and '17.And that was the first time I'd really gone through the process of grief, uh, in a, in a, like, in a non-family situation, like with friends and mentors and people that I'd created with, which is different. It's a different kind of connection. Um, when my grandparents died, it's like there was nothing left unsaid, and I was at peace with what was happening. With this, when Prince died out of the blue, um, in mid, uh, 2016, and then Leonard Cohen died in November, that just tore me to shreds because Leonard Cohen was not just someone that profoundly inspired me, you know, musically and lyrically, but spiritually. We had a very deep connection. Um, and that was the basis of a lot of our conversation, was spirituality. And so, at that time, I felt like a piece of me went missing, and that was a very long process where (laughs) I just stayed in my place and didn't want to play a note of music. I kind of wanted to just get rid of all my stuff. So, I, I had a friend come over, and he's like, "You should just, why don't you come to The Comedy Store?" I'm like, "Comedy Store? Like, what, am I gonna go, go to some store and buy clown suits?" Like, "What are you talking about?"

Lex Fridman 19:49 (laughs) Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 19:49 "What's a comedy store?" He's like, "No, no, no, like, The Comedy Store, the place where, like, comedians go." I'm like, "Okay, well, I've, I've never seen standup. I, I don't, you know... I've seen Seinfeld on TV. That's, like, the extent of my standup experience."

Lex Fridman 20:02 (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 20:02 So, he took me to The Comedy Store, and every single one of those comedians, like, embraced me like I was family. It, it didn't even take a day. I was, like, part of the family, and I made, like, 25 best friends.

Lex Fridman 20:17 (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 20:18 And I ended up throwing all my stuff in storage and, like, finding a little room to stay in where I rented my gear out. Um, and that was me pay- my rent-paying was me lent- loaning the gear 'cause I didn't want any, any responsibilities, financial. I just wanted to be completely free (laughs) so that I could, like, just process it and not feel like I had to commit to anything work-wise or creatively. I just wanted to unplug. And so this was like a fun and very different way to unplug because, you know, previously, I may have just gone to a monastery and spent, you know, weeks at a monastery or months. But in this case, I was like, "You know what? This is a different kind of experience. I'm gonna just hang out with comedians (laughs) and stay in this room and..."

Lex Fridman 21:09 Mm-hmm. With no responsibility, really.

Tal Wilkenfeld 21:10 Yeah. O-other than to really deeply connect with this grief that I'm experiencing. I'm not going to negate it. I'm not... I'm, I'm gonna really fully connect to it, and I did. And it was tough. And then, you know, more people in 2017 were leaving, Gregg Allman, Tom Petty. I mean, it was like, these are people that I, I worked with all these people and, like, had great connections with them, and they were all going. And the world was mourning the loss of these people because the, of everything that they, they given to the world. Like, they changed the world's lives, not just mine, 'cause I knew them personally. And so that was also complicated and why, for me, it was, it was interesting to be grieving the loss of these musicians with comedians.

Lex Fridman 22:04 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 22:04 And, uh, I learned a lot. It changed my life 'cause I just learned to, I learned to laugh at absolutely anything, everything.

Lex Fridman 22:12 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 22:12 I mean, my grandpa had a really great sense of humor, too. My grandpa's a Holocaust survivor, and, like, he could just kind of like laugh at anything. And, like, so I already kind of have that in me. But being around all these comedians just kind of like exaggerated that for me, and that really changed things for me, for the better. So, then when Jeff Beck died, it was like, "Okay, I've got these tools. I know what this is. And I, and I'm gonna go through it again, and I'm gonna be on tour with Incubus in two days."

Lex Fridman 22:44 (laughs) Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 22:45 And so Mike Dirnt from Green Day, he called me up, and he said, "Hey, like, I know you're going through a lot," and I said, "I don't even know what I'm gonna play. Like, I really want a vintage jazz bass for this, and I only have a '70s one that I don't really think is appropriate. I really need a '60s one," blah, blah, blah. And Mike's like, "I'm gonna hook you up." He showed up to my place the next day with a truckload of old P basses and jazz basses and brought them all into my studio. And I'm playing them, and then I pull one out of the case, and it's, it's an Olympic White, just like Jeff Beck-

Lex Fridman 23:22 (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 23:22 ... and I play it. And not only did I get goosebumps and started crying, but I looked over at Mike, and (laughs) same thing was happening.

Lex Fridman 23:32 (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 23:32 And he's like, "Uh, I guess, I guess Jeff might, might be happy about this." And he's like, "Well, you know, I didn't want to let this one go. I was just trying to cheer you up a bit and maybe loan it to you for the tour, but if you really want it, it's yours."

Lex Fridman 23:50 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 23:51 And I was like, "Oh my God, this is like, like what a blu- like Mike Dirnt is the nicest guy ever." Um, so, so that happened. So, that bass's name is Jeff, and it's a white jazz bass, and I played it on the Incubus tour. But yeah, I do feel like I'm more equipped to handle grief now.

Lex Fridman 24:11 Tell me about The Comedy Store a little bit more. Do you think, um, comedians and musicians in some deep, fundamental way are made from the same cloth?Like, are they spiritually connected somehow?

Tal Wilkenfeld 24:25 I think everyone's connected-

Lex Fridman 24:27 (laughs) Yes.

Tal Wilkenfeld 24:27 ... spiritually in the same way. So, I think personality wise, um, comedians and musicians are quite different actually.

Lex Fridman 24:37 Oh. In what way?

Tal Wilkenfeld 24:40 Well, you, you'd have to subdivide even musicians into different categories too because, you know, the thing that I appreciate about comedians is that, you know, you go to a restaurant with them and like, all the observational humor of like-

Lex Fridman 24:52 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 24:53 ... they'll just, they'll notice everything-

Lex Fridman 24:54 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 24:55 ... and make you laugh about it.

Lex Fridman 24:56 (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 24:57 Which, a really great songwriter does the same thing too. And my favorite lyricists like Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, they, you know, Warren Zevon, they add comedy into their lyric. And like, so those types of people I would liken to hanging out with a comedian.

Lex Fridman 25:16 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 25:16 It's very different from like, say somebody that is an instrumental guitarist or something like that, that they're, they're more focused on whether it's like a kinesthetic thing or like, a physical thing or whatever it is. They're not, they're not quite doing the observational thing in the same way. So, I just appreciate like, my favorite thing to do is go out and laugh, especially 'cause like I can tend to be pretty analytical-

Lex Fridman 25:44 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 25:44 ... and be in my head. Um, and so anything that just kinda lets me be in my heart and just enjoy life. It's great.

Lex Fridman 25:54 I think there's a photo of you with, uh, Dave Chappelle on stage. What was that about?

Tal Wilkenfeld 25:58 So, right after Leonard Cohen passed away, The Comedy Store threw me a birthday party. It was this crazy lineup and like, it was like, I'd play a song with my band and, um, and then Jackson Browne sat in and like, sung a song. And then like, Dave Chappelle came up and said some jokes. It was like, it was like, one of my favorite nights ever.

Lex Fridman 26:22 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 26:23 Yeah. It was cool. It was, it was a very healing birthday party.

Lex Fridman 26:27 Yeah, there's something magical about that place.

Tal Wilkenfeld 26:29 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 26:30 It's really special.

Tal Wilkenfeld 26:31 Yeah. Well, The Mothership has some magic to it-

Lex Fridman 26:33 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 26:34 ... too. It's really cool. It's different, totally different vibe, but like, super awesome.

Lex Fridman 26:40 You've said that, uh, Leonard Cohen is, uh, a songwriting inspiration of yours. I saw you perform his song, Chelsea Hotel, brilliantly on the internet. Um, it's about, for people who don't know, is a, his love affair with, uh, Janet Joplin. How does that song make you feel?

Tal Wilkenfeld 27:01 Great. I love that song.

Lex Fridman 27:03 Which aspect? Musically, the melancholy feeling, the hopeful feeling, the, the cocky feeling? All of it, like e- every single line has a different feeling to it, really.

Tal Wilkenfeld 27:16 Yeah, but as a whole piece I, I, I appreciate it so much. I actually lived at the Chelsea Hotel and when, when Leonard and I first met, that was one of the first things we talked about was that, you know, I lived there where all that stuff went down (laughs) before they tore it apart. And, um, yeah, I, it's just a beautiful song.

Lex Fridman 27:44 You know, it makes me sad the way it ends, "I don't mean to suggest that I loved you the best. I can't keep track of each fallen robin. I remember you well in the Chelsea Hotel, that's all. I don't even think of you that often." You know, that line, "I don't even think of you that often," always like, breaks my heart for some reason.

Tal Wilkenfeld 28:04 Hmm.

Lex Fridman 28:04 Like, how ephemeral, how short lasting like, certain love affairs can be. It's just kinda like, huh.

Tal Wilkenfeld 28:14 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 28:14 Do you think he meant it? I always think he doesn't, he's trying to convince himself of it.

Tal Wilkenfeld 28:19 It could be both.

Lex Fridman 28:20 (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 28:20 Or either, you know? I mean, that's the beautiful thing about poetry and lyric is that it's supposed to be open.

Lex Fridman 28:27 Yeah. I wonder if it's also open to him depending on the day, you know?

Tal Wilkenfeld 28:30 Definitely. I mean, the thing that he taught me, um, or his advice to me was, "When you're writing a song, look at it the next morning, like just first thing and read it, and then take a walk. Smoke a joint. Read it again. Go have a fight with your, you know, daughter. Come back. Read it again. Get drunk. Read it again. Wait a week. Read it again."

Lex Fridman 29:00 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 29:01 Just so that, you know, from every state and every position that you, the, the wider the lens is gonna be-

Lex Fridman 29:09 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 29:09 ... from an audience perspective. You want things to mean multiple things.

Lex Fridman 29:14 Uh, so there's one line I read somewhere that he regrets putting in the song. So I gotta ask you about it, it's pretty edgy. It's about, uh, "giving me head on the unmade bed."

Tal Wilkenfeld 29:25 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 29:25 You think that's a good line or bad line?

Tal Wilkenfeld 29:27 I think it's an amazing line. It's one of the best lines-

Lex Fridman 29:29 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 29:29 ... in the song.

Lex Fridman 29:30 Yeah, right?

Tal Wilkenfeld 29:30 When he put that song out, obviously he didn't regret it or he wouldn't have put that lyric-

Lex Fridman 29:35 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 29:35 ... in the song. I think what happened was that eventually word got out either from him or from somebody else that the song was about Janis Joplin.

Lex Fridman 29:45 Yes.

Tal Wilkenfeld 29:45 And so at that point, he regretted the indiscretion. So, it wasn't that he regretted how great the line was.

Lex Fridman 29:53 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 29:53 It was just, you know, the privacy factor. But then again, Leonard's known for rewriting his lyrics. And in his live shows you'll see a bunch of songs where it's like, new lyrics.

Lex Fridman 30:06 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 30:06 And he didn't do it 'cause he didn't like the old lyrics. He just did it because he could, 'cause he's Leonard and it's like-

Lex Fridman 30:13 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 30:13 ... why not have fun with words the way musicians have fun, you know, improvising solos on stage? And he could have changed that line in Chelsea Hotel after, in retrospect, and he never did.

Lex Fridman 30:25 "I remember you well in the Chelsea Hotel. You were..."... talking so brave and so sweet. Giving me head on the unmade bed while the limousines wait in the street.

Tal Wilkenfeld 30:35 That's so powerful.

Lex Fridman 30:36 It's a powerful line. It just kind of shocks you.

Tal Wilkenfeld 30:39 Well, that's what's so pow- what's so great about it.

Lex Fridman 30:40 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 30:41 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 30:42 But also heartbreaking 'cause it doesn't last, especially, actually to me, it adds more meaning once you know it's Janis Joplin. It's like, okay, these two stars kind of collided for a time.

Tal Wilkenfeld 30:54 Yeah. But, but what, why is it heartbreaking? It could also be just beautiful that they had a little fling.

Lex Fridman 31:00 Yeah. Everything's beautiful.

Tal Wilkenfeld 31:02 Thank you. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 31:03 Even the dark stuff. What's not beautiful? Everything is beautiful if you, if you look long enough and deeply enough. What were we saying? Oh.

Tal Wilkenfeld 31:14 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 31:14 Uh, what do you think about Hallelujah? Like, what, what do you think about the different, different songs of his? And, what, why'd you choose Chelsea Hotel to perform?

Tal Wilkenfeld 31:22 Because I lived there and it was like, it meant something to me to sing, to sing that song. And, uh, actually when I put that song out on YouTube, that's when he sent me an email. He's like, "Hey, do you wanna, do you wanna come over?" And-

Lex Fridman 31:37 Nice. So this is how you guys connected?

Tal Wilkenfeld 31:39 No, we met in a rehearsal studio. I ended up watching their whole rehearsal and sitting there next to Roshi, his like 105-year-old monk, which was really great. I remember when I was like shaking his hand, like, like... So I like... It was just me and Roshi on the couch watching Leonard with his band.

Lex Fridman 31:59 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 31:59 And we're shaking hands, and he grips my hand like this, so like doesn't let it go. And he said, looked at my eyes and he said, "Where are you?" And I said, "In the handshake."

Lex Fridman 32:11 (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 32:11 He said, "Yes." (laughs)

Lex Fridman 32:13 Wow. You passed the test.

Tal Wilkenfeld 32:15 (laughs) Passed the Roshi test. And then what's funny was that the next thing that happened about five minutes later was Leonard Cohen got down on his knees and opened up a jar, I'm not kidding you, of caviar. This is not a callback.

Lex Fridman 32:28 Well, it is in a way.

Tal Wilkenfeld 32:30 I know.

Lex Fridman 32:30 In a deep-

Tal Wilkenfeld 32:30 I know.

Lex Fridman 32:30 ... in a deep, fundamental way.

Tal Wilkenfeld 32:32 He started feeding the monk caviar.

Lex Fridman 32:34 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 32:35 And that healed my Montreux Jazz Festival sadness forever. The end. See, uh-

Lex Fridman 32:41 Do you think there's a kind of like weird, like there's a sense of humor to it all somehow? Like, like why does that happen? Why, why does that happen? Why, like why stuff like that happens or that the, that Jeff Bass speaks to you?

Tal Wilkenfeld 32:57 Why, why do we need to know?

Lex Fridman 32:59 You believe in that stuff?

Tal Wilkenfeld 33:00 In what stuff?

Lex Fridman 33:01 Like, that there's a rhyme to the whole thing somehow, like there's a frequency to which magical things of that nature can happen.

Tal Wilkenfeld 33:19 I'm divided about that answer because I think just things are flowing. I don't necess- I don't think anything's kind of like planned out.

Lex Fridman 33:32 Like, uh, through time, it's like an orchestra playing of different experiences and circumstances that are somehow connected.

Tal Wilkenfeld 33:40 I think everything's connected, so yes.

Lex Fridman 33:43 But predetermined means like-

Tal Wilkenfeld 33:45 I don't believe in the predetermined stuff necessarily, which is different from whatever your, your previous karma is. And karma is a whole other kind of conversation. I don't mean karma as in like good karma, bad karma. Just karma meaning the collection of things you have acquired over this lifetime or other lifetimes. Just whatever that, whatever that is is going to influence your future.

Lex Fridman 34:12 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 34:13 So-

Lex Fridman 34:13 Well, you had a really interesting trajectory through life.

Tal Wilkenfeld 34:16 Hmm.

Lex Fridman 34:17 Uh, maybe I just read it that way because I've had a lot of stuff happen to me that's like lucky, feels lucky. And sometimes I wonder like, "Huh? Like, this is weird." It does feel like the universe just kinda throws stuff at you with a chuckle. I don't know. Not you.

Tal Wilkenfeld 34:36 One.

Lex Fridman 34:36 The proverbial you. One.

Tal Wilkenfeld 34:38 One. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 34:40 You said you sometimes watch classic movies to inspire your songwriting, and you mentioned watching Taxi Driver. I love that movie, and I think you mentioned that you wrote a love song based on that movie. So Travis Bickle, for people who don't know, is, uh, he's a taxi driver and, uh, he's deeply lonely. What do you think about that kind of loneliness?

Tal Wilkenfeld 35:02 I think that loneliness is a product of feeling separate from the world and separate from others, and that the less you experience that separation, the less you'll feel lonely.

Lex Fridman 35:20 How often have you felt lonely in this way? Separated from the rest of the world?

Tal Wilkenfeld 35:25 It's less and less every single year 'cause I work very hard at, at it.

Lex Fridman 35:34 Feeling l- a part of the world?

Tal Wilkenfeld 35:37 Yeah, just meditating and studying scriptures and-

Lex Fridman 35:40 Don't you think that, I mean, isn't there a fundamental loneliness to the human experience? Just-

Tal Wilkenfeld 35:45 In what sense?

Lex Fridman 35:46 That all the struggles, all the suffering you experience is really experienced by you alone?

Tal Wilkenfeld 35:52 Is it?

Lex Fridman 35:53 Maybe at the very bottom, it's not.

Tal Wilkenfeld 35:55 It's kind of all the same stuff.

Lex Fridman 35:57 You didn't feel alone in 2016, 2017?

Tal Wilkenfeld 36:02 I felt like I lost a piece of myself that I had given to somebody else, and I feel like people feel that in romantic, um, exchanges, whether it's long-term, short-term. You give a piece of yourself, and then if that person dies or you break up with that person, you feel like you've lost that piece of yourself, which I feel like is very different experience than if you just are opening yourself rather than giving a piece of yourself. You're just opening yourself to somebody or something.

Lex Fridman 36:38 Yeah.So, opening is fundamentally not a lonely experience.

Tal Wilkenfeld 36:42 Mm-mm. No, it's a loving experience.

Lex Fridman 36:45 And then losing a piece of yourself can be.

Tal Wilkenfeld 36:50 Yeah, 'cause you can't really, you can't lose a piece of yourself if you are the same self as every other self.

Lex Fridman 36:57 Right, right. So, if you see yourself as together with everybody, then there's no losing.

Tal Wilkenfeld 37:01 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 37:02 Yeah. Yeah, it's a beautiful way to look at it. You said that, uh, there's something healing about being in an empty hotel room-

Tal Wilkenfeld 37:10 Mm.

Lex Fridman 37:11 ... with no attachments-

Tal Wilkenfeld 37:12 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 37:12 ... except your suitcase. You know, a lot of people talk about hotel rooms being a fundamentally lonely experience.

Tal Wilkenfeld 37:20 Mm.

Lex Fridman 37:20 But you're saying it's-

Tal Wilkenfeld 37:22 It's healing.

Lex Fridman 37:22 ... it's a b- it's healing.

Tal Wilkenfeld 37:23 Yeah, 'cause I just get to sit there and not worry about all this stuff, the, like, this, these meaningless attachments.

Lex Fridman 37:31 (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 37:31 I got my suitcase with my necessities, or my three suitcases sometimes. (laughs) And uh, I can just sit there and meditate and just be with myself, and it's so awesome. And usually like, you plan your touring for like, you know, you d- you, you kinda get the business aspect of things taken care of in advance so you can kind of just really be flowing day-to-day on a tour, and it's a great feeling. It's funny because this last tour that I did, we didn't have hotels every night. We had hotels maybe like once a week, and I, I hadn't done that before. Usually it's, um, frequently in hotels. So, I didn't get that space that I'm really used to getting.

Lex Fridman 38:18 (laughs) You missed them?

Tal Wilkenfeld 38:20 I very much missed it and had to be very creative. And I ended up like, going into the back lounge when everyone was asleep and like meditating back there, or like before everyone woke up. Um, and I actually like joined, there was like an online meditation retreat that was happening. It was like 12 hours a day of silent meditations that happens once a year, and I love this, this particular group of people. And they knew I was on tour, so they're like, "Just join when you can." And so I was on the tour doing the meditation retreat at the same time. It was so fun. It was so fun because I was like in the back lounge, the bus is like moving around like this. My laptop, the Zoom is like juj-juj, and I'm just like sitting, like meditating. It was, it was like, yeah, this is the shit. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 39:12 Silence. So, they- they're all connected through Zoom and just doing silent 12, 12 hours a day?

Tal Wilkenfeld 39:16 Yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman 39:16 That's cool.

Tal Wilkenfeld 39:17 These particular retreats that I started doing, it's not straight silent. There are, you know, silent sits every hour for 50 minutes, and then there's some talks. And like these people that I've been working with are really cool because they're integrating, um, spiral dynamics into zen and it's like the coolest combination of-

Lex Fridman 39:43 What's spiral dynamics?

Tal Wilkenfeld 39:45 Oh, like Ken Wilber. Do you know Ken Wilber?

Lex Fridman 39:47 Uh-

Tal Wilkenfeld 39:48 Integral theory?

Lex Fridman 39:49 Yes. Can you explain a little bit? So, he, I vaguely know of him because of kind of this notion that everything is one, like everything's integrated, that every field has truths and falsehoods and we should integrate the truths.

Tal Wilkenfeld 40:08 Yeah. It's hard to explain how it applies to this type of meditation because it's in the, the guided parts of the meditation that this whole like holonic theory is like brought in about like transcending and including every aspect of your being.

Lex Fridman 40:29 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 40:29 Um, because he talks about like levels of development and like it w- in consciousness and how like this applies to like every single religion or non-religion that there are these levels of development and, uh, from all, that go all the way up to enlightenment. It, no matter what you start off with, it could be, you know, Christianity, Buddhism, Vedanta, doesn't matter, like anything. And I just like, I like it when everything is, and everyone is taken into account. It doesn't matter where you're coming from, that there is a way to, to be self-realized, self-actualized. There are se- self-actualized beings from all walks of life with very, very different paths. There's no one path. I mean, in this particular retreat I do, there's like a lot of silent sits and then there's some guided meditations. Um, but there's, I've, I've tried a lot of different avenues and they're all great, so I wouldn't just say, "Just try this one thing." Like, I've studied like the Upanishads like with Vedanta teachers and like gone through those texts for months and months and stayed at monasteries and like how they break it down makes total sense to my mind and heart and like my, more importantly than my mind, like my inner knowing, like it resonates. And that's-

Lex Fridman 41:49 Inner knowing?

Tal Wilkenfeld 41:50 Yeah, because like your mind is like the thinking tool. Like it's, it's not you. You're not your mind. You're not your thoughts, you're not your body, you know? So, it's like just the you.

Lex Fridman 42:04 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 42:04 Like that knowing that you have, that's kind of when something resonates there, that's usually when you go with something.

Lex Fridman 42:12 What was living in a monastery like?

Tal Wilkenfeld 42:14 It's the best.

Lex Fridman 42:15 What is, what are we talking about? Like what?

Tal Wilkenfeld 42:17 It's just an empty room with like a tiny single bed and a sheet and a pillow and that's it.

Lex Fridman 42:22 That's it?

Tal Wilkenfeld 42:23 You have to eat the same thing as everyone.

Lex Fridman 42:25 What's the food like? What is it?

Tal Wilkenfeld 42:27 Very plain, cheap, basic food, which is v- you know, funny for someone like me because I'm, I'm, I'm pretty particular about my diet. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 42:36 Yeah, you brought over like, like 20 different ingredients.

Tal Wilkenfeld 42:40 (laughs) Yeah.

Lex Fridman 42:42 So, what was the, like day in the life of Tal at a monastery?

Tal Wilkenfeld 42:48 You wake up at 5:00 AM to the bell and you go and meditate, like, constantly-

Lex Fridman 42:57 So, the-

Tal Wilkenfeld 42:57 ... till bedtime, other than two meals.

Lex Fridman 43:00 Well, how are you sitting? Are you in a group? Is there other people there?

Tal Wilkenfeld 43:04 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 43:04 And you're just sitting there?

Tal Wilkenfeld 43:06 Well, yeah, if you're talking about the Zen monastery, 'cause I stayed in a Zen monastery. Um, and I did a thing with the, um, the guy I was telling you about that kind of- uh, the integral zen thing where he-

Lex Fridman 43:18 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 43:19 ... uses Ken Wilber's work in combination with zen. That, that's a little bit different 'cause he does talks. We talk about things. Um, and that's very separate from the monaster- like, the Vedanta monasteries I've stayed at, which there's very little meditation in, in terms of sitting silently. We, instead we are meditating on the scriptures, like the Upanishads, and we're, like, diving into that.

Lex Fridman 43:46 What were the differences, the takeaways from the experiences? The, the two different, the integral one and the, uh, the meditating on scriptures?

Tal Wilkenfeld 43:56 They're both incredibly, have been incredibly helpful to me because the Vedanta, um, any time I go into my head about something, the- the- the answer is there based on this knowledge. And with the Zen monastery, it's like you just gotta put your, your butt in the seat and sit and wait, and maybe something ha- will happen, maybe it won't, but just keep sitting. And it's very disciplined, and you go through a lot. Your body's purging a lot. There's, there's a lot, and you don't necessarily have the answers as to what is happening. And so, I think for somebody like me, I need both. I need to be in a place where there's complete uncertainty but complete discipline, and just doing the regimented thing, and then there's the me that feels very satisfied from an analytical standpoint, understanding what's happening, like, what, what is the gross and the subtle body and the... You know, like, I wanna understand these things about what it is to be a human. So, I- I like 'em both.

Lex Fridman 45:15 Understand what it means to be a human. So that, like, having that patience and just sitting with yourself helps you do that?

Tal Wilkenfeld 45:22 Yes. More so like the analysis part helps me understand.

Lex Fridman 45:26 Oh, so the analysis, the actual... Okay, got it.

Tal Wilkenfeld 45:29 But sitting with yourself, there's no better education-

Lex Fridman 45:32 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 45:32 ... of, like, facing every demon and that it's all gonna come out and it's not gonna be pretty.

Lex Fridman 45:39 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 45:40 But then, uh, there's, there's things that happen on the other side of it that are so profound.

Lex Fridman 45:45 Have you met most of your demons?

Tal Wilkenfeld 45:48 I've met the demons that have come out. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 45:50 Oh, there might be more?

Tal Wilkenfeld 45:51 Who knows? Yeah.

Lex Fridman 45:52 Okay, well-

Tal Wilkenfeld 45:53 We'll see.

Lex Fridman 45:53 ... to be continued. (laughs) What, uh, since, since I think I, I, I,

Lex Fridman 46:00 I heard you say that you wrote a love song after Taxi Driver, what, um, kind of love songs do you write more of? Broken... So, you're a songwriter first, for people who don't know. They might think you're primarily a bassist, but you're-

Tal Wilkenfeld 46:14 But they're wrong.

Lex Fridman 46:16 So, do you write (laughs) mostly broken heart ones or, like, hopeful love songs, in love songs, about to be in love songs, soon to fall in love songs?

Tal Wilkenfeld 46:27 Um, well, the last album I put out, that is pretty-

Lex Fridman 46:29 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 46:30 ... self-explanatory as to what that is.

Lex Fridman 46:31 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 46:32 Um-

Lex Fridman 46:33 A lot of pain in that one?

Tal Wilkenfeld 46:35 There was, yeah.

Lex Fridman 46:36 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 46:37 Some of it was storytelling and some of it was real experience, and it's always like a combination of, of things. Like, what, I- I serve the song, so sometimes you use your own, uh, life experience to tell a song, and sometimes you may watch a movie and part of that script, uh, merges with your own experience-

Lex Fridman 47:03 Okay.

Tal Wilkenfeld 47:03 ... and that tells the right story for the point you're trying to make-

Lex Fridman 47:06 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 47:07 ... in the song. So, it's, it varies from song to song, like, in terms of how, like, autobiographical it is.

Lex Fridman 47:14 Yeah. That was the, at the end of Taxi Driver when, um, what's her name, Betsy? Because Travis becomes a hero, she tries to get with him and he rejects her also. That was powerful.

Tal Wilkenfeld 47:28 My favorite love songs are the ones where you're not sure it's about romantic love or love of God or love of life or just pure, just love. Like, I was thinking, like, George Harrison writes songs like that, like, What Is Life?

Lex Fridman 47:48 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 47:49 Or, like, Bob Dylan's song that, that George Harrison covered, If Not For You.

Lex Fridman 47:54 Yeah, just grateful, grateful for his love, yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 47:56 Right, right. That's kind of, like, where, or what I'm experiencing now, and so who knows what'll end up coming out, but...

Lex Fridman 48:05 So, you've been writing this kinda...

Tal Wilkenfeld 48:07 Yeah, I've been writing.

Lex Fridman 48:09 A little bit?

Tal Wilkenfeld 48:10 I don't have, like, an intention of, like, putting something out in, in, in any particular time frame, but I'm just writing and letting things flow.

Lex Fridman 48:19 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 48:20 And, yeah, I lo- there's, like, a bunch of, like, Leonard Cohen songs to- too, where you're like, there's so many ways to interpret this song and-

Lex Fridman 48:31 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 48:31 ... there's so many ways... I just love songs that don't, aren't, like, so, like, specifically about one thing.

Lex Fridman 48:38 Mm-hmm. You know, I, I really love the song, to play it, to listen to Wonderful Tonight by Eric Clapton, and I thought it was pretty straightforward.

Tal Wilkenfeld 48:45 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 48:46 And then I had a conversation with, uh, Eric Weinstein-... was a mutual friend of ours.

Tal Wilkenfeld 48:52 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 48:52 And he told me it's not about what I thought it was about.

Tal Wilkenfeld 48:54 Oh, yeah? What did he say?

Lex Fridman 48:56 Um, it's a- a more complicated story. It's- it's actually a man... So, Wonderful Tonight is a story about a man being just- finding his wife beautiful and appreciating it throughout. But he said it was actually a man missing his wife, that he's imagining-

Tal Wilkenfeld 49:17 Hmm.

Lex Fridman 49:17 ... uh, that she's lost because of the decisions he's made in his life.

Tal Wilkenfeld 49:22 Hmm.

Lex Fridman 49:22 So, it's pain. And he had a long, beautiful Eric Weinstein-like explanation of why.

Tal Wilkenfeld 49:28 I love those.

Lex Fridman 49:29 Have you and Eric played music?

Tal Wilkenfeld 49:32 No. We've just hung out and had very long conversations about everything.

Lex Fridman 49:37 He's a bit of a musician, you know?

Tal Wilkenfeld 49:39 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 49:39 Okay.

Lex Fridman 49:40 You picked up the guitar when you were 14. Let's go back. And one interesting thing that just jumped out at me is you said you learned how to practice in your head because you only had 30 minutes.

Tal Wilkenfeld 49:52 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 49:52 Your parents would only let you practice for 30 minutes.

Tal Wilkenfeld 49:55 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 49:56 I read somewhere that Coltrane did the same. He was, not the practice part, but he was able to play instruments in his head-

Tal Wilkenfeld 50:03 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 50:03 ... as a way to, like, think through different lines, different musical thoughts, that kind of stuff.

Tal Wilkenfeld 50:09 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 50:10 I just, um... Maybe can you tell the story of that?

Tal Wilkenfeld 50:14 Yeah. I just grew up in a- a environment that was, uh, focused on academia.

Lex Fridman 50:20 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 50:21 And I fell in love with guitar and really just wanted the focus to be that. Um, so my limit was 30 minutes a day for I don't even remember how many times a week. Might've been every day or f- five days a week, whatever.

Lex Fridman 50:36 So, your parents didn't want you to play more than that?

Tal Wilkenfeld 50:39 Um, no. And so I just learned how to visualize the fretboard in my head and I'd practice all day in my head. It's kind of like, you know the- the- uh, The Queen's Gambit, the TV show-

Lex Fridman 50:52 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 50:52 ... with Anya Taylor-Joy? And she just, like-

Lex Fridman 50:54 On the ceiling?

Tal Wilkenfeld 50:54 ... uses it on the ceiling. I used to do that with a fretboard.

Lex Fridman 50:56 (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 50:57 Yeah, and just practice. And I actually recommend it to every musician because if you're just practicing here, uh, you don't know what is more dominant necessarily. Is it this or is it your motor skills?

Lex Fridman 51:13 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 51:13 If you just take that away and do it here, you know you've got it.

Lex Fridman 51:18 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 51:18 So, I'm glad that that happened and that I learned how to do that. And in terms of, like, learning fast, 'cause like I had to, like, learn how to... Well, I had to try to absorb a lot of information in a short amount of time when I did have the instrument.

Lex Fridman 51:33 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 51:34 I kind of would, like, do things in bursts, like even in that half an hour.

Lex Fridman 51:41 (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 51:41 I would just go, like play for a couple minutes and then I'd stop for, like, a minute. And then I'd do it again and I noticed there was, like, a huge difference-

Lex Fridman 51:49 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 51:49 ... between the first time and the second time. Whereas if I just kept repeating stuff, it would be, like, much slower.

Lex Fridman 51:56 Well, what did you do in the- in that minute?

Tal Wilkenfeld 51:59 Just hang out.

Lex Fridman 52:00 Just integrate? Like...

Tal Wilkenfeld 52:01 Yeah, just like my brain, it's like my brain was telling me, like, "Just chill out for a sec. That's enough information. Let me- let me take a second to integrate that."

Lex Fridman 52:09 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 52:09 That's what, at least what it felt like to me. And the most hilarious thing happened a couple months ago. I know you're friends with Andrew Huberman.

Lex Fridman 52:18 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 52:18 So, he put out some clip, which was a part of one of his podcasts about learning. And he said that there was some research done on learning fast, and that if you practice something for, you know, a minute or so and then you let your brain rest for 30 seconds or a minute, that in that 30 seconds or a minute, your brain does the repetition 20 to 30 times faster and in reverse.

Lex Fridman 52:51 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 52:51 And I was like, "Whoa."

Lex Fridman 52:53 (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 52:53 "That's so cool 'cause that's what I used to do when I was a kid."

Lex Fridman 52:55 (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 52:55 Like, now there's science that proves that.

Lex Fridman 52:57 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 52:57 Which is really cool for, you know, for musicians to know that- that that's a good way to practice efficiently. 'Cause you know, like some musicians they're like practicing for six, seven, eight hours a day.

Lex Fridman 53:08 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 53:09 I've never done that. I've never practiced more than an hour a day, even now. Like, I've just- just that's my technique.

Lex Fridman 53:15 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 53:16 And it works.

Lex Fridman 53:17 Are you, uh, also practicing in your head sometimes?

Tal Wilkenfeld 53:20 Now I'm not practicing as much. I'm more always writing songs in my head-

Lex Fridman 53:24 Right.

Tal Wilkenfeld 53:24 ... so that's why I like silence. That's why I love being in the empty hotel room and being alone or, you know, songs come to me while I'm showering or walking around, doing the dishes. Or occasionally when I'm hanging out with friends or, like, comedians and people will just, like say shit and I'll be like, "That's a cool line." Just, like, jot it down in my phone.

Lex Fridman 53:46 So it's not always musical, it's sometimes lyrical.

Tal Wilkenfeld 53:48 It's more lyrical than musical now. Because it's like, for me it's like, well, there's so much music in the world. If I'm going to write a song, I want- I want the song to be about something interesting. And so, yeah, the words matter to me.

Lex Fridman 54:07 Yeah. And the right work can- can have so much power. It's crazy.

Tal Wilkenfeld 54:11 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 54:12 Like we said from Leonard- Leonard Cohen. And then they're often simple.

Tal Wilkenfeld 54:16 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 54:16 The really powerful ones are simple.

Tal Wilkenfeld 54:17 And like you, when you mentioned Hallelujah, you know, he wrote like 80 verses to Hallelujah-

Lex Fridman 54:21 (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 54:21 ... before he narrowed it down to like four. And it took him like 15, 20 years to write that song.

Lex Fridman 54:26 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 54:26 So, some writers will do that. Like, and then other writers just vomit it out and it's- and it's beautiful.

Lex Fridman 54:35 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 54:35 Like I've heard that Bob Dylan or Joni Mitchell, they're like, they're fast writers. They just kind of, it just kind of comes out.

Lex Fridman 54:40 Mm-hmm. That makes me feel so good to know Leonard Cohen wrote so many verses of that. Like that- that was a- that was so deliberately crafted.

Tal Wilkenfeld 54:50 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 54:50 Extensively, rigorously crafted.

Tal Wilkenfeld 54:53 He just would spend months and years and constantly refining, refining.

Lex Fridman 55:00 Do you have songs like that for yourself-

Tal Wilkenfeld 55:02 Yeah, yeah. It's-

Lex Fridman 55:02 ... where you refined for many years?

Tal Wilkenfeld 55:03 It's song dependent. Some just flow out and it's like, oh, there it is.

Lex Fridman 55:08 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 55:08 Everything's there. And then other songs, it's like, you might have started it with music and there's some words that come out, and then trying to fill in the rest of the words. Sometimes it can be like a square peg in a round hole, and other times it's like, oh, no, I can... You know, it- it- it depends. Sometimes it becomes like a math problem, and hopefully it doesn't. 'Cause you just want to say what's right for the song. And usually when you, you know, write it all together, like the lyric and the melody and the chords and everything's kind of developing at once, at least for the first draft, that's very, very helpful.

Lex Fridman 55:49 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 55:50 Like Sondheim used to write like that, just like, he wouldn't move on until, like, he would just go this way. Whereas for me, it's just like, I'll just go with what seems to be coming naturally and I'll just let it be what it is. And then you come back and you say, okay, well, what- what- what do I have to do to this now? Like, what's needed?

Lex Fridman 56:07 Just through, uh, on the learning process, um, what would you recommend for young musicians on how to get good? What are the different paths a person can take to understand it deeply enough to create something special?

Tal Wilkenfeld 56:26 I think first and foremost, understanding why you are playing music. If it's 'cause you have something that you're trying to express or that you're just in love with expression itself, with art itself, those are great reasons, um, to- to start this journey.

Lex Fridman 56:48 The why should be clear.

Tal Wilkenfeld 56:49 I think the why is really important 'cause it's a jagged lifestyle, and there's a lot in it. And so if you don't have your purpose, if you're not centered in your purpose, then all that- that jagged lifestyle is probably gonna get to you.

Lex Fridman 57:06 Jagged?

Tal Wilkenfeld 57:06 It's jagged.

Lex Fridman 57:07 Interesting word.

Tal Wilkenfeld 57:08 Yeah, it's jagged. It's- it's all over the place. It's uncertain. It's one thing one moment and a completely different thing another moment. You never know what's gonna happen. And if you thrive on variety, which I love variety, um, then it's- it's perfect, but also every human being needs a certain amount of certainty and structure. And so it's, the certainty can come from your inner knowing knowing that you're doing exactly what you want to be doing and knowing what your purpose is in- in doing it, in this expression. Otherwise, you're just kind of like a leaf blowing in the wind.

Lex Fridman 57:48 Like in the early days, touring, just playing clubs seems like tough.

Tal Wilkenfeld 57:52 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 57:53 It's a lot.

Tal Wilkenfeld 57:54 Yeah, it's a lot of like, the physical labor aspect of it-

Lex Fridman 57:57 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 57:57 ... is really hard. Playing on stage to- to two people or 2,000 or 20,000, that doesn't make a difference. I mean, it makes a difference to the ticket sales, which informs how, what level of, uh, luxury you might have on the road or not. But other than that, it's just people there listening to music. The music doesn't change.

Lex Fridman 58:19 Does it make it tougher when it's two people versus 200?

Tal Wilkenfeld 58:21 No.

Lex Fridman 58:23 So, even if nobody recognizes whatever the thing you're doing?

Tal Wilkenfeld 58:26 No, because the- the idea is to be doing, like having a great conversation on stage.

Lex Fridman 58:31 Hmm. The audience can come and go?

Tal Wilkenfeld 58:35 Yeah. I mean, I- I always was like, like there's certain points in shows where I- I'm just like, I consciously am like, oh, yes, there's an audience over there.

Lex Fridman 58:45 (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 58:45 'Cause I'm so like-

Lex Fridman 58:46 Wow.

Tal Wilkenfeld 58:46 ... wrapped up in whatever's happening on stage.

Lex Fridman 58:49 You forget yourself.

Tal Wilkenfeld 58:50 Or maybe I'm remembering myself.

Lex Fridman 58:52 Oh, wow. Damn. Callback, somehow feels like one.

Tal Wilkenfeld 59:00 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 59:00 Okay. Uh, you think every instrument is its own journey? Because you play guitar, you play bass, you sing. Just the- the mastery of an instrument, or let's avoid the word mastery, the, uh, understanding of an instrument is its own thing, or are they somehow like, physical manifestations of the same thing?

Tal Wilkenfeld 59:19 It's both. You know, like every instrument has its strengths, beauty, limitations, range, like possible range that can, you know, be extended to some degree or another, depending on who you are. Like trumpet or something, you know, like-

Lex Fridman 59:37 (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 59:37 ... certain people can hit higher notes than others, blah, blah, blah. But, um, that being said, we're all playing the same 12 or 24 or h- however you divide the octave, that many notes.

Lex Fridman 59:49 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 59:49 You know, we're all playing the same notes. So in that sense, it's all the same thing. It's just music, or better yet, it's just art or expression. But yeah, every instrument has, you know, you got to go through the- the physical- the physical aspects of it, the motor skills and all of that. And hopefully you get through that really quickly so you can get to the expression quickly 'cause if you get stuck in just that first phase, that's be really boring.

Lex Fridman 1:00:19 Yeah, but that's a, that's a pretty long phase, the technical, uh, the- the- the technical skill required to really play an instrument.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:00:27 For some people, it's a long thing, and some people it's short. It vary, very much varies. It might have to do with, like, how you learn, um, and getting to know, like, your strengths in learning.

Lex Fridman 1:00:42 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:00:42 Are you more aural or more, like, is it more like kines- like, what's- what's your strength and playing off of those strengths. So, for me, like, it was, like- like I was saying earlier, it was just an intuitive thing that I knew, I can feel when my brain is full.... like that it needs processing time. And so I listen to that, I don't push past it. Uh, even if it's like one minute and I do something, I'm like, "Okay."

Lex Fridman 1:01:11 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:01:11 Silence. And then I come back and it, and it, and I trust that it's gonna be there and it is there.

Lex Fridman 1:01:16 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:01:16 So, just trusting yourself I think is really important. Trusting that you know you better than anybody else is gonna know you. So, that's the kind of thing with- with teachers that can be either really, really helpful and great or really not great. Like I'm primarily self-taught. I've had amazing mentors of all walks of life. And I think I'm unbelievably blessed that my mentors are some of my favorite musicians on Earth, whether it's Leonard Cohen or Jeff Beck or Wayne Shorter, whoever these people are, like they are my favorite musicians. So, not everyone has that opportunity, but what- the opportunity that we have now that I didn't have when I was starting is that everything's on YouTube.

Lex Fridman 1:02:04 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:02:05 Like every interview with every genius, like you- you don't need to necessarily have these people in person now. I mean, it... And- and then I'll say to that, yes and no (laughs) . I- I agree with myself and then I don't agree with myself. And- and the reason is, I do believe that there is something that happens when you're in person with a master. Um, in some cases that there is something transferred that is not intellectual, it's not spoken, it's something else that happens, that can happen, uh, that I've experienced. And, um, I really value that.

Lex Fridman 1:02:47 And I think that applies to specific disciplines and also generally. Like I've been around Olympic gold medalists just to hang out with them for several days, and there's something- there's something about greatness. There's a way about them that kind of, uh, permeates the space around them, you kind of learn something from it.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:03:07 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:03:08 Even if you don't practice that particular discipline.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:03:10 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:03:10 There's something to it if you're- if you're able to see it. I also like what you said about the playing stuff in your head, that it forces you to not be, um, lost in the- in the physical learning of the instrument. I think that's one of the things I probably regret a little bit is that I play both piano and guitar and I've become quite, over the years, technically proficient at the instruments.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:03:42 I've seen.

Lex Fridman 1:03:42 But I think my mind w- is underdeveloped because of that. Meaning, like I can't really, like... Um, I can feel the music when it's created, but I can't create out of the feeling. I haven't practiced the, um, project-

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:04:03 Oh, yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:04:03 ... projecting the feeling onto the music, you know?

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:04:05 Hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:04:06 And I'm not like a musician, but I'm just... It- it's- it's a different muscle that I think is, if you really want to create beautiful things, you have to... The creation happens here, not with your hands.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:04:17 I think it's more here.

Lex Fridman 1:04:18 Or whatever, whichever, it's- it's some part of the body, but it's not with your fingers.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:04:21 Yeah. 'Cause I think the fingers is more this.

Lex Fridman 1:04:24 Sure.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:04:24 And then...

Lex Fridman 1:04:25 Yes (laughs) .

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:04:26 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:04:26 It's here.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:04:27 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:04:27 Right. And it's just nice that you said that 'cause it- it, um, it's probably really, it's really good advice if you wanna create.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:04:34 Yeah, slowing down is really great too.

Lex Fridman 1:04:38 What do you mean slowing down?

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:04:40 Slowing everything down. It could be, you know, I can play something really fast, but I may wanna like practice it... Yeah. Let's see. Like... (piano music)

Lex Fridman 1:05:09 Go slow as possible.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:05:12 'Cause there's all these micro movements and, uh, that are happening that if you just go... (piano music) Like you- you can't pay as close attention to the exact tone that you're pulling from each note.

Lex Fridman 1:05:28 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:05:28 And there's a lot to pay attention to to how my fingers are touching the string here.

Lex Fridman 1:05:33 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:05:34 Like I can change my tone a million ways just by the direction of this finger.

Lex Fridman 1:05:38 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:05:39 And same with how this lands and how hard I'm attacking the string, and with what intention am I hitting the string emotionally-

Lex Fridman 1:05:48 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:05:49 ... physically. And so even if you can go (singing) , play that so slow. See how locked into a pocket you can be. See how you, like feel every aspect of that 'cause then when it gets sped up, it's still there with you.

Lex Fridman 1:06:06 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:06:07 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:06:07 That's brilliant.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:06:08 It's kind of like the transcendent and included thing that Ken Wilber talks about, like it's like...

Lex Fridman 1:06:14 And I guess that's what meditation can do for you, is to like really listen to your, like observe every aspect of your body, the breath, and all this. Here you're observing every element, like every super detailed element of playing a single note.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:06:26 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:06:27 That's cool that if you speed it up, it's still there with you.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:06:30 It is. I've- I've... Yeah, it is 'cause I hear, there are certain people it's like they play really fast but I don't hear the fullness of tone always. And it's like, well, it's probably 'cause maybe they didn't... Maybe it's 'cause they didn't slow it down and really sit with each note and let it like resonate through their whole being.

Lex Fridman 1:06:54 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:06:54 It's spiritual. It's like a spiritual expression. It's not just like, you know, it's not- it's not a sport. A lot of people treat music like a sport.

Lex Fridman 1:07:04 Yeah. Since starting to learn more like Stevie Ray Vaughan versus Jimi Hendrix...I, I would spend, uh, quite a long time on single notes or just bending, just like, just listening to what you can do with bends, spending. Just thinking like, people like B.B. King and all these blues musicians, like, spent a career just making a- a single note cry.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:07:26 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:07:27 There's like an art form to that.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:07:28 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:07:29 And I- I think you putting it like, taking it really slow, which I never really thought of, is a really good idea. Like, really slow it down.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:07:39 It's the same with like sitting with your own emotions. It's like we, when emotions are overwhelming to us, we get real busy or we move real fast 'cause it's like we don't wanna feel our feelings. And those are the moments to slow yourself down.

Lex Fridman 1:07:57 And observe it. Anger, jealousy.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:08:00 And just be with-

Lex Fridman 1:08:01 Loneliness.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:08:01 Yeah, just be with it. Be like, be cool with it. Like, love it.

Lex Fridman 1:08:05 (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:08:05 Love the anger and-

Lex Fridman 1:08:06 It's all beautiful.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:08:08 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:08:10 Can you educate me on the difference between bass?

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:08:13 Bass and bass? Okay, well one is a fish. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:08:16 (laughs) At least I pronounced it correctly. That's good. Uh, it's all about the bass.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:08:20 Can you pronounce my- my name?

Lex Fridman 1:08:22 Tal.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:08:23 Wow. (laughs) Mo- most people say Tal-

Lex Fridman 1:08:27 Tal.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:08:28 ... or Tall. You said Tall-

Lex Fridman 1:08:30 Tall. Who says Tall?

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:08:31 ... like so many people.

Lex Fridman 1:08:32 In- in the South maybe, Tall.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:08:34 I don't know but the fact that you said my name right-

Lex Fridman 1:08:35 Oh, honey Tal.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:08:36 ... you get extra points.

Lex Fridman 1:08:37 Tal. I can't... I didn't know it was a game. Am I winning? (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:08:41 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:08:41 I like winning.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:08:42 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:08:44 (laughs) How do you play the bass? Uh, what's the difference between finger style and slap?

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:08:48 Slap is like this, finger style is like this. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:08:51 You ever- ever played bass with a pick?

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:08:52 Yeah, sometimes.

Lex Fridman 1:08:54 I'm not accusing you of anything.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:08:55 No accusation taken.

Lex Fridman 1:08:57 I don't know if these are sensitive topics, like if-

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:08:59 That would be pretty hilarious if I was sensitive about bass techniques but like, not about like, love.

Lex Fridman 1:09:05 It just looks so cool to like slap it and I don't understand what that's about. Like that thumb thing that...

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:09:11 Yeah. I slap less. Um, a lot less. Almost never actually. Um, it has a very distinctive sound and ha- does a very distinctive thing to a song.

Lex Fridman 1:09:23 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:09:23 That, um, is not something I hear needed very often in music today.

Lex Fridman 1:09:30 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:09:31 Um, but in certain styles, like funk, it sounds awesome and it makes sense. It was something that was a bit overused at one point. Um, for instance, like my mentor Anthony Jackson-

Lex Fridman 1:09:46 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:09:47 ... he refused to slap. Like he actually said, "If you want me to slap, I'll leave this gig."

Lex Fridman 1:09:53 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:09:54 So, I'm not like that. Uh-

Lex Fridman 1:09:56 See, that's why I said sensitive. See, I was like reading into it.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:09:59 'Cause he was, he's sensitive about it. I'm not

Narrator 1:10:00 sensitive.

Lex Fridman 1:10:00 I was feeling the spiritual energy of the sensitivity of the topic.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:10:03 Yeah, off Anthony Jackson?

Lex Fridman 1:10:04 Anthony Jackson.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:10:04 And then, I mean, I'm playing electric bass so generally speaking, you don't particularly wanna hear electric bass on straight ahead jazz anyway. You wanna hear an upright bass. But if I was to play jazz on an electric bass, I might even kind of th... like palm- palm mute. You know, like instead of going like... (bass line) I might go... to very...

Lex Fridman 1:10:28 Hmm. Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:10:30 Anything to kind of make the- the notes, um, shorter and less resonant and like kind of fade away quick 'cause the upright does that naturally. And I have like a different bass, like a hollow body Harmony that sounds closer to an upright that I'll use, um, in- in certain, like on my song Under the Sun that I put out, that was on a Harmony Bass and it has like kind of an upright acoustic kind of tone to it-

Lex Fridman 1:10:55 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:10:55 ... but with more sustain.

Lex Fridman 1:10:58 And, uh, is jazz fusion the- the style where you have like, oh, an electric bass? Can you educate me what's with jazz fusion?

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:11:05 Uh, again, you can- you can have both. You can have both on, you can have either on anything.

Lex Fridman 1:11:11 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:11:11 There's no like real rules now.

Lex Fridman 1:11:14 I've- I've heard you say something interesting which is, uh, well, a lot of things you say is interesting. But... (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:11:18 Just one thing. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:11:20 (laughs) Just one. That...

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:11:23 And it's what time you're leaving. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:11:27 (laughs) What time was that again?

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:11:27 (laughs) Three minutes.

Lex Fridman 1:11:31 That it's maybe easier sometimes to define a musical genre by the don'ts than the- than the dos. The don'ts, then the dos. Uh, what are the don'ts of jazz and rock? What are the don'ts of jazz fusion? What are the don'ts? In any domain of life-

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:11:49 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:11:49 ... what are the don'ts?

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:11:50 The don'ts is just to- to please leave your fear at the door.

Lex Fridman 1:11:54 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:11:54 And your dos is to-

Lex Fridman 1:11:56 (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:11:56 ... be open to anything. And open your ears, like respond to what's happening now. I think that quote you're talking about might have been more about an- an individual musician's unique sound.

Lex Fridman 1:12:15 Hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:12:15 Because everyone has their sound. If they've developed their voice and they've listened to their own aesthetic preferences, of which everyone is slightly different, everyone has slightly different likes and dislikes, um, then you'll have a unique sound on your instrument and your unique sound is defined more by the choices you make rather than... I mean, it's- it's equally as defined by the choices you make and the choices you don't make. I mean, it's- it's the, it's the flip side of the same coin really.

Lex Fridman 1:12:46 Yeah, there's certain musicians you can just tell it's them. Just you hear a few notes and you're like, "Oh okay, it's them." Tone, sometimes it's tone, sometimes it's the way they put, they play rhythm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:12:57 Yeah. It might, that quote we are talking about might have even had to do with someone's like real limitations on an instrument that then that would define their sound as the things that they can't, like actually can't do versus like what you're choosing to do versus not choosing to do, which is that like flip side of the same coin thing.

Lex Fridman 1:13:14 How many fingers you play with.It seems like a lot of the greatest musicians aren't technically like, perfect. The- the imperfections is the thing that makes them unique and where a lot of the creativity comes from. I mean, Hendrix, Hendrix had a lot of those things. The way he put like a thumb over the top.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:13:34 Well, his hands were huge.

Lex Fridman 1:13:35 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:13:35 There was no other place for the thumb to go. And it was great that he could reach, you know, the- the E string, and that was an advantage.

Lex Fridman 1:13:43 And he was a lefty playing a right handed guitar.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:13:47 Yeah. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:13:47 Flipped, I guess.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:13:49 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:13:49 That's weird. Um, that probably doesn't have much of an effect, maybe a spiritual one, I don't know.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:13:55 Hmm, actually, flipping a guitar is- is- is different. It does, you know, bring out something different in you 'cause I've done it, I've like flipped it and it's like, oh wow, yeah, it really, it's really different. I remember talking to my like osteopath about like, you know, 'cause there's so much weight on this shoulder-

Lex Fridman 1:14:11 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:14:11 ... while I'm playing all the time and- and they were saying like, "Well, just after shows, just literally just turn it upside down and do the exact same thing in the opposite way. It'll like even out your body." And I was like, "Oh, that's good advice."

Lex Fridman 1:14:24 Have you actually tried it?

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:14:25 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:14:25 Okay, all right. I'll write that down. (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:14:29 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:14:31 Uh, all right,

Lex Fridman 1:14:33 well, do you know a guy named Davie 504?

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:14:36 I've heard of him.

Lex Fridman 1:14:37 I recently learned of him. He's a YouTuber and a bass player. He's amazing.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:14:42 Cool.

Lex Fridman 1:14:42 He combines memes and also just these brilliant bass compositions, and says slap like a lot. He's big into slapping.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:14:50 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:14:50 That's- that's how, that's, he's the one that kinda-

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:14:52 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:14:52 ... made me realize this is a thing, okay? And he also said that you're one of the best, if not the best bassists in the world. There's a bunch of his fans that wrote in and he analyzed the Jeff Beck thing that we watched at Crossroads, as one of the greatest solos ever, bass solos ever. So, shout out to him. What does that make you feel like? You're the greatest-

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:15:12 Chocolate-

Lex Fridman 1:15:12 ... of all time?

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:15:13 ... chocolate cookies.

Lex Fridman 1:15:14 Chocolate, is that your favorite?

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:15:16 I like macadamia nut, like if I, if you really wanna get into it with like white chocolate.

Lex Fridman 1:15:21 Yeah. That's a rare one for people to say-

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:15:23 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:15:23 ... is the favorite.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:15:24 Chocolate chip is just like easy, you can kinda get them anywhere.

Lex Fridman 1:15:27 Yeah. Last thing you wanna be is easy-

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:15:29 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:15:29 ... in this world. You don't wanna be easy. You said that "I love rock and roll" quote, "I love folk, I love jazz, I love Indian classical music. I really love all kinds of music as long as it's authentic and from the heart." So when you play rock versus ja- you played all kinds of music, uh, what's the difference technically, musically, spiritually, for you?

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:15:49 Well, there's no spiritual difference.

Lex Fridman 1:15:50 Okay, all right.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:15:51 Um-

Lex Fridman 1:15:51 Cross that off the list.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:15:52 (laughs) But, uh, well musically, yeah, it's kinda like what we were saying earlier. It's like each genre has its language of what makes it that genre.

Lex Fridman 1:16:09 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:16:10 Um, and th- that would be a good thing to say it's defined by the, you know, the do's and don'ts, um, because, yeah, it's like... I'm trying to think. Basically, I put the song first, and I think of the song as the melody, the lyrics, and then the harmony, and obviously the groove.

Lex Fridman 1:16:34 So- so the song goes before the genre, in a sense? Each- each song is like its own thing?

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:16:39 They're both things that are held in my mind. It's like, okay, genre and then song, which is comprised of those basic, you know, elements. Um, and I tend to kind of prioritize lyric because somebody is trying to express something over music. And so that, uh, the lyric is very, very important. And so then the choices come from there. It's like, okay, within the genre of X, um, this is the typical language.

Lex Fridman 1:17:14 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:17:15 And then how do I best serve this- this lyric? And then where else can I pull from that might not be in these two bags that would put a little twist on it?

Lex Fridman 1:17:29 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:17:30 So those are all the kinds of things I might be thinking about. Um, but I don't like twists for the sake of twists either. I like twists because I wanna hear something that might be fresh.

Lex Fridman 1:17:45 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:17:46 But when someone does something just to be hip-

Lex Fridman 1:17:50 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:17:50 ... it's annoying to me. You c- I think you can hear the difference. It's like when people like, they write in odd time signatures or like they write all these riffs just because they can, just 'cause they have the chops to do it or they know how to play in 11/16 and whatever (laughs) . But it's like, but if it's not actually creating a piece of music that's going to move somebody, then why are you doing it? And so, I think a lot of the questions I'm asking myself when I'm approaching a song are mainly philosophical and aesthetic.

Lex Fridman 1:18:27 So you like to stand on the edge of the cliff not for the thrill of it, but 'cause that's where you find something new?

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:18:32 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:18:32 Potentially?

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:18:33 Yeah. And it's thrilling.

Lex Fridman 1:18:36 But you're not doing it just for the thrill?

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:18:37 I'm not doing it for the thrill.

Lex Fridman 1:18:39 But it hap-

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:18:39 It just happens to be thrilling.

Lex Fridman 1:18:41 All right.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:18:42 'Cause you can always reel it back in.

Lex Fridman 1:18:45 Can you though?

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:18:46 Yeah. You can.

Lex Fridman 1:18:48 All right.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:18:48 You can like do a totally like disciplined, like I can go into a session and,

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:18:53 okay, my favorite thing about going into a session with- with musicians that I adore is that we don't hear the demo, 'cause if you hear a demo, you're hearing what the producer or songwriter have already imagined that every instrument is playing. And then it's like, well, I've already heard what you want, now my mind is, part of my mind is focused on what I already know you want and what the destination's gonna be, why did you bring me in here?

Lex Fridman 1:19:17 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:19:18 I wanna not hear it. I just want you to sit at a piano and sing the song with, uh, I wanna hear the chords and the lyric. And then w- or sit at an acoustic guitar, play it, and then let's all go in the room. And then take one-

Lex Fridman 1:19:31 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:19:31 ... I would say 80% of the time, take one has the most gold. And there might be, like, a mistake or two, or someone forgot to go to the B section, and you might wanna, like, punch that in so that you're hitting the right chord. But all the magic is in that take.

Lex Fridman 1:19:47 (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:19:47 And then sometimes it happens where it's like you go, it's like we're rehearsing in take one, two, three, four. Fi- and then you're, like, thinking about it too much, and then you go and you have a dinner, and you come back, and the next take one-

Lex Fridman 1:20:00 (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:20:00 ... after dinner, is the one.

Lex Fridman 1:20:01 Yeah, yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:20:01 Like, it's usually after there's some sort of a break.

Lex Fridman 1:20:05 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:20:06 But, but obvi- obviously there's exceptions to that rule. Sometimes it's take two or three.

Lex Fridman 1:20:10 Yeah, you said, uh, you said that this is something that surprised you about recording with Prince, is that he would just, so much of it would be take one.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:20:19 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:20:19 So quick, it would just move so quickly.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:20:21 Yeah. Well, with that particular album that we made together, it's called Welcome to America. He called me up and asked me, he said, "I wanna make a band with you. I'm, like, really inspired by what you're doing with Jeff Beck. I wanna make a trio. Do you like the drum rolls of Jack DeJohnette?" was, like, his first question to me. I'm like, "Well, yeah, who doesn't? Who doesn't like Jack DeJohnette? Like, one of the greatest of all time." And he's like, "Well, you know, uh, sounds like," 'cause we had a discussion about drumming, "Sound, sounds like you're, you're kind of particular about drummers, so why don't you find us the drummer, and I'll trust you to find the drummer. You can audition some people, send me some recordings of maybe your two favorites, and I'll pick, pick out of the two or something." So, I did that. Went on a journey, found a couple guys. He picked the one. We went in, and, um, he basically just would be like, "Okay, so the A section's gonna go like this, and then the B section, I think we're gonna, gonna go to, uh, G, and da, da. And then the bridge, I might go to B flat, but maybe I'll hold off and duh, duh, duh. Okay, let's go. One, two, three, four."

Lex Fridman 1:21:27 Wow.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:21:28 And then we recorded it to tape. There was no pu- he did not want me to punch anything. Like, it was like... And there was one song called, um, Same Page, Different Book.

Lex Fridman 1:21:39 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:21:39 And, uh, and he, like, talked through it just like he did. And then he had me soloing between each phrase, like little fills. It was like, "All right." I didn't know that that was gonna come up, and that... And he loved that. He loved the, to have me on the edge of my seat-

Lex Fridman 1:21:54 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:21:54 ... like, falling off the cliff.

Lex Fridman 1:21:56 (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:21:56 That was my first, like, real, like, falling off a cliff moment from somebody else holding me at the edge of the cliff.

Lex Fridman 1:22:04 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:22:04 You know what I mean? Um.

Lex Fridman 1:22:06 (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:22:06 Now, I just do it on my own 'cause it's so f- it's so fun and makes sense. It's, it's the best thing for the music.

Lex Fridman 1:22:13 When you say, "Punch the tape," is that, is that when you actually record it? Say it?

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:22:16 Like, if you record to tape and there's, like, say, like, you hit a bum note, like, to, to punch in means to, like, fix that note.

Lex Fridman 1:22:25 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:22:26 Like, rerecord over that one little area and, and punch that note in. He didn't want that. He, like, he's like, "All my favorite records just, like, whatever happened, happened. That's that moment in time. Let's make a new moment in time." (laughs) It's great.

Lex Fridman 1:22:39 (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:22:39 Nobody makes records like that anymore. Everyone wants to, like, you know-

Lex Fridman 1:22:44 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:22:44 ... edit and edit and rerecord, and this and that. And unfortunately, with a lot of music, and I'm not saying all music, 'cause there's plenty of great music coming out, but the- there's the danger of it being flat.

Lex Fridman 1:22:58 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:22:58 Because every little imperfection is, is digitally removed.

Lex Fridman 1:23:05 Well, th- that's one of the promising things about AI, is because it can be so perfect, that the thing will actually come back to value about music is the imperfections that humans can create.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:23:16 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:23:17 There would be a greater valuation of imperfections.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:23:20 Yeah. I mean, you can kind of program imperfections too.

Lex Fridman 1:23:24 Yeah, sure. That's, that's also very sad. But then you get closer and closer to what it means to be human, and maybe there'll be AIs among us, and they'll be human, flawed like the rest of us, mortal and silly at times. (sighs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:23:42 (laughs) Another big sigh.

Lex Fridman 1:23:44 (laughs) Uh, is it fair to say that you're very melodic on bass? Like, you, there's a, you make the bass sing more than people normally do?

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:23:55 Is that a compliment?

Lex Fridman 1:23:56 Yes, I think so.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:23:57 Thank you. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:23:59 (laughs) Moving on to the next question.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:24:00 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:24:01 (laughs) I mean, I, as, uh, by way of understanding, it's just, there's, there's something about the way you play bass that just kind of pulls you in, the way when you listen to somebody play a guitar, like a guitar solo.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:24:13 The thing I love about Jeff Beck is that he played the guitar like a singer.

Lex Fridman 1:24:18 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:24:18 And I think that the way that Wayne Shorter played his saxophone was like a singer. And I think everyone, every musician aspires to just sound like a singer.

Lex Fridman 1:24:29 So, you make it sing.

Lex Fridman 1:24:30 Let me ask you about, just come back to Hendrix, 'cause you said that you had three CDs, Jimi Hendrix, Herbie Hancock, and Rage Against the Machine. First of all, great combination.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:24:39 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:24:40 I'm a big rage fan.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:24:42 It's so funny, 'cause like, when I listen to some of the music that I create, like my solo music, I'm like, "I could see how this is a combination of Herbie Hancock, Rage Against the Machine, and Jimi Hendrix." (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:24:55 (laughs)

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:24:55 Like, I, I hear the influences. It's funny.

Lex Fridman 1:24:58 Just from your musician perspective, what, what's interesting to you about, what really stands out to you about Hendrix? I just would love to hear, like, a real, professional musician's opinion of Hendrix.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:25:13 I love that he is two voices...... combined into one voice. So, it's like there is his voice on the guitar and there is his, his singing voice, and there is the combination of the two that make one voice. And of course, the third element is his songwriting.

Lex Fridman 1:25:36 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:25:36 And all of this have, have this beautiful chemistry and all work geniously, perfectly together. And there's nothing like it. And you know, he, he always beat himself up about being a singer and like he didn't like his voice, but it's like my favorite singers are the singers that don't sound like singers.

Lex Fridman 1:25:58 Bob Dylan, you said-

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:25:59 Bob Dylan.

Lex Fridman 1:26:00 ... you like Bob Dylan.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:26:01 Love Bob Dylan.

Lex Fridman 1:26:03 You love his voice too.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:26:04 I love his voice.

Lex Fridman 1:26:06 Can you explain? Your, the, your love affair with Bob Dylan's voice?

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:26:10 He's express- he's expressing his lyrics. There's, it's just-

Lex Fridman 1:26:14 Something like that.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:26:14 ... pure expression, exactly what he means. I feel everything that he's saying with 100% authenticity.

Lex Fridman 1:26:24 Yeah.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:26:24 That's what I wanna hear from a singer. I don't care how many runs you can do and blah, blah, blah. Like, I wanna believe what you're saying.

Lex Fridman 1:26:33 Leonard Cohen is that.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:26:34 Mm-hmm. There's countless, like Neil Young. I mean, there, there's so many musicians. I love Elliott Smith for that reason.

Lex Fridman 1:26:44 Let me ask you about mentorship. You said, uh, teachers and mentors, you had mentors. W- what's a good mentor for you, harsh or supportive?

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:26:54 Supportive.

Lex Fridman 1:26:55 Supportive. You seen Whiplash, the movie? So that guy, somebody's screaming at you, like kicking you off the cliff.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:27:03 Not necessary. I feel like anybody that's truly passionate about something that they wanna be great at or a master of, or this and that, they've already got that person inside their own head.

Lex Fridman 1:27:14 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:27:15 You, you don't need somebody else to do that for you. I think you need love, acceptance, guidance, support, time, um, advice if you ask for it. Just a space. Just a nice open space. All my mentors were just that for me. They didn't tell me to do anything. They, they didn't care. Like, 'cause they're not, they're, why do they need to be invested in where I'm going? Only I know where I'm going. So, for some mentor to come and be like, "This is what you need to be doing and practice this." It's like, but why? What if that's not my path? That might be your path. So, I'm not really... Again, otherwise it feels like a sport.

Lex Fridman 1:28:00 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:28:00 Like, who can run the fastest race? And it's like, well, okay, well, I, I get that for that, for sport. Maybe it makes sense to have someone a bit more hardcore. But still, like, I would say athletes have the same mentality. They've got, they've got that in them already too.

Lex Fridman 1:28:14 Mm-hmm.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:28:14 Like, so I think more like of a strategic approach to mentorship works really well. And mainly just hav- having an open space and just being available to someone.

Lex Fridman 1:28:27 Mm-hmm. And kind of show that you, they see the special in you.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:28:31 Yeah. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:28:31 And they give you the room to develop that special whatever.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:28:35 Exactly. 'Cause if you do have that harsh critic inside you, it's like, it is nice to have somebody that isn't like your family or someone that's not obligated in any way, that just sees your talent and they're like, "Yeah. I dig what you're doing. Keep doing it."

Lex Fridman 1:28:51 Yeah. It's funny that that's not a- a- always easy to come by.

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:28:56 Do you have any mentors?

Lex Fridman 1:28:58 Yeah, I've had a few recently. But for most of my life, people didn't really... You know, I- I'm very much like that too. Like, somebody to pat me on the back and say like, like, see something in you of value. Um, yeah, I didn't really have that. So...

Tal Wilkenfeld 1:29:16 Do you wish you did?

Lex Fridman 1:29:17 Yeah. Yeah. But maybe the wishing that I did is the thing that made me who I am. Not having it, the longing for that, maybe that's the thing that, um,