Tal Wilkenfeld: Music, Guitar, Bass, Jeff Beck, Prince, and Leonard Cohen | Lex Fridman Podcast #408

1. 0:00 – 1:08

   Introduction

   1. TWTal Wilkenfeld0:00

      I am standing on the edge of the cliff the entire night. And if I, you know, mess something up, mess it up, like what even is a mistake? But if I do like a little clunker or whatever it is, it's like, so what? I, like, I wouldn't have played half the stuff that I'm playing if I wasn't constantly standing on the edge of the cliff like wild.

   2. LFLex Fridman0:22

      Mm-hmm. Why, why are you standing on the edge of the cliff?

   3. TWTal Wilkenfeld0:24

      Because at the edge of the cliff is all possibilities.

   4. LFLex Fridman0:30

      The following is a conversation with Tal Wilkenfeld, a singer-songwriter, bassist, guitarist, and a true musician who has recorded and performed with many legendary artists, including Jeff Beck, Prince, Eric Clapton, Incubus, Herbie Hancock, Mick Jagger, Jackson Browne, Rod Stewart, David Gilmour, Pharrell, Hans Zimmer, and many, many more. This was a fun and fascinating conversation. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Tal Wilkenfeld.

2. 1:08 – 10:00

   Jeff Beck

   1. LFLex Fridman1:08

      There's a legendary video of you playing with Jeff Beck. We're actually watching it in the background now. (instrumental music plays) So, for people who don't know, Jeff is one of the greatest guitarists ever. Ah, so you're playing with him at the 2007, uh, Crossroads Festival?

   2. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:23

      Mm-hmm.

   3. LFLex Fridman1:24

      And people should definitely watch that video. You were killing it on the (laughs) on the bass. Look at that face. (laughs) Uh, were you scared? What was the experience like? Were you nervous? You don't look nervous.

   4. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:36

      Uh, yeah.

   5. LFLex Fridman1:37

      You look confident.

   6. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:38

      Yeah, I'm, I wasn't nervous. I, I think that you can get an adrenaline rush before a stage, which is natural, but I think as soon as you bring fear to a bandstand, you're, you're like limiting yourself. You're kind of like walling yourself off from everyone else. If you're afraid, like what is there to be afraid of? Th- that you must be afraid of making a mistake and therefore you're coming at it as like a perfectionist, and you can't come at music that way or it's not gonna be as expansive and vulnerable and true. So, no, I was excited and passionate and having the, having the best time. And also, you know, the fact that he gave me this solo, the context of this performance is that this was a guitar festival. It's one of the biggest guitar festivals in the world 'cause it's Eric Clapton's festival. And there's like 400 guitarists that are all playing like solos all night, and we were like towards the end of the night. And I, I could tell like Jeff like got like a kick out of, you know, "I'm, I'm not gonna solo on like one of my most well-known songs, Cosimo and Benanda's Lovers." Well, Stevie Wonder wrote it, but it's the, people know Jeff for that song and his solo on it. He's like, "I'm gonna give it to my bass player." And like, and he did, and like-

   7. LFLex Fridman3:02

      He took it.

   8. TWTal Wilkenfeld3:03

      ... the fact that he's like vowing and like... That, that, that, like he didn't have to do that.

   9. LFLex Fridman3:09

      But you really-

   10. TWTal Wilkenfeld3:09

       So...

   11. LFLex Fridman3:09

       ... stepped up there.

   12. TWTal Wilkenfeld3:12

       It just, it just shows what a generous musician he is, and that's evident in his playing across the board that he's, he is a generous, loving, open musician. He's not there for himself. He's there for the music. And he thought, "Well, this would be the perfect musical thing to do." Um, and it kind of all started like when I went to audition for him, uh, which was an interesting experience because I got, (laughs) I got food poisoning-

   13. LFLex Fridman3:43

       Mm-hmm.

   14. TWTal Wilkenfeld3:44

       ... um, on the plane. And so, like literally when the plane landed, I went straight into an ambulance into, um, a hospital overnight. The manager picked me up and I showed up at Jeff's door, which is like a three-hour drive like through windy country roads. And he answered the door and he's like, "Okay, you ready to play?" (laughs) So, we went upstairs and started like rattling off the set. And when it came to this song, Cosimo and Benanda's Lovers, he just said, "Solo." And he, he loved it and kept the solo in it. So, that's kind of how... 'Cause th- there was no bass solo before I was playing in his band. So, this whole thing was kind of new.

   15. LFLex Fridman4:24

       So, even with food poisoning, like you, you could step up?

   16. TWTal Wilkenfeld4:27

       Yeah. (laughs)

   17. LFLex Fridman4:28

       That's just like what? Instinct?

   18. TWTal Wilkenfeld4:30

       It's just being able to differentiate from like the body and from like expression music.

   19. LFLex Fridman4:35

       All right.

   20. TWTal Wilkenfeld4:36

       Yeah.

   21. LFLex Fridman4:37

       You know, it's interesting you said fear walls you off from the other musicians. And what are you afraid of? You're afraid of making a mistake. You know, uh, Beethoven said, "To play a wrong note is insignificant. To play without passion is inexcusable."

   22. TWTal Wilkenfeld4:52

       Yeah.

   23. LFLex Fridman4:52

       Do you think, uh, the old man had a point?

   24. TWTal Wilkenfeld4:54

       Yeah. Different styles of music invite, uh, varying degrees of, um, I would say uncertainty or unsafety in, in the way that people might perceive it. So for instance, like the tour that I was just on, like playing Allman Brothers songs.

   25. LFLex Fridman5:14

       Mm-hmm.

   26. TWTal Wilkenfeld5:15

       Like, I am standing on the edge of the cliff the entire night. And if I, you know, mess something up, mess it up, like what even is a mistake? But if I do like a little clunker or whatever it is, it's like, so what? I, like, I wouldn't have played half the stuff that I'm playing if I wasn't constantly standing on the edge of the cliff like wild.

   27. LFLex Fridman5:38

       Mm-hmm.

   28. TWTal Wilkenfeld5:38

       And so, I don't care about those few little things. I care about the overall expression. And then there's other gigs that, you know, for instance, if I got called for like a pop or country session or a show, th- in those environments, they may want you to play safe. Like, "Just play the part."... and play it with a great groove and time, and great dynamics, and don't really veer away from the part and stuff. And, and I've done plenty of those gigs too. It's just, it's just a different, like, hat you put on.

   29. LFLex Fridman6:14

       What do you get from the veering? From the veering off the beaten path? Do you just love it? Or is that gonna make the performance better? Like, why- why- why stand at the edge of the cliff?

   30. TWTal Wilkenfeld6:28

       Because at the edge of the cliff is all possibilities-
3. 10:00 – 26:39

   Confidence on stage

   1. LFLex Fridman10:00

      way too far. You- you talked about confidence somewhere. I don't remember where. So, I want to ask you about how much confidence it takes to be up there. You said something that Anthony Jackson told you as encouragement, a line that I really like. That quote, "On your worst day, you're still a bad motherfucker."

   2. TWTal Wilkenfeld10:17

      That's actually a- a Steve Gadd quote.

   3. LFLex Fridman10:19

      Mm-hmm.

   4. TWTal Wilkenfeld10:20

      And Steve used to tell that to Anthony 'cause Anthony used to get real depressed if he did a wrong thing or not perfect thing. And Steve Gadd used to say this to Anthony Jackson, and then Anthony was my first bass mentor, or just mentor in general.

   5. LFLex Fridman10:35

      For people who don't know, he's a legendary bassist.

   6. TWTal Wilkenfeld10:37

      He's a legendary bassist, and I- I started playing the bass when I was 17, and I moved to New York, and I met Anthony, and he started mentoring me but in a very not typical way. Like, he like, would just sit in his car with me for hours and talk music, and-

   7. LFLex Fridman10:55

      You guys just listened to music-

   8. TWTal Wilkenfeld10:56

      Yeah.

   9. LFLex Fridman10:56

      ... and analyze it?

   10. TWTal Wilkenfeld10:57

       Exactly. Um, and that was the best form of learning, I think. Just like, "Well, what do you perceive here?" And, "Oh, well, I heard this," and just discussing that. Um-

   11. LFLex Fridman11:08

       Jazz usually, or ?

   12. TWTal Wilkenfeld11:09

       No, all st- all styles of music. And uh, yeah, he told me that story about, "On your worst day..." Because, you know, like yeah, even then, like when I was like, 18, 19, I'd get sad sometimes about performances.

   13. LFLex Fridman11:22

       Yeah.

   14. TWTal Wilkenfeld11:22

       Like, "I coulda done this." It's like, I don't do that anymore, thankfully, o- or I'd be miserable. (laughs)

   15. LFLex Fridman11:29

       So, you still, you always kinda feel pretty good?

   16. TWTal Wilkenfeld11:31

       Yeah. Yeah, now I do. Now, now it's just I- I- I sense the body feeling fatigued.

   17. LFLex Fridman11:37

       Mm-hmm.

   18. TWTal Wilkenfeld11:38

       Especially if it's a very long show, like the ones I just did were three-hour shows, and we did, you know, one to three-hour sound checks. So, that's a lot of physical activity every day.

   19. LFLex Fridman11:47

       Mm-hmm.

   20. TWTal Wilkenfeld11:47

       Um, so I just feel the body being tired, like, fatigued. The ears are fatigued. That's about it. I- I don't really reflect on the show much.

   21. LFLex Fridman11:59

       You're almost like, from a third person perspective, feel the body get tired and just-... accept it?

   22. TWTal Wilkenfeld12:05

       Yeah, I don't wanna identify with it 'cause then I'm, like, then I, then I'm tired. But I'm not tired.

   23. LFLex Fridman12:09

       It's very zen.

   24. TWTal Wilkenfeld12:09

       I'm usually, like, energized.

   25. LFLex Fridman12:12

       It's like with the food poisoning, the mind is still-

   26. TWTal Wilkenfeld12:14

       Yeah.

   27. LFLex Fridman12:15

       ... capable of creative genius even if the body is gone.

   28. TWTal Wilkenfeld12:18

       Yeah. (laughs)

   29. LFLex Fridman12:19

       Something like that?

   30. TWTal Wilkenfeld12:21

       Yeah.
4. 26:39 – 34:39

   Leonard Cohen

   1. TWTal Wilkenfeld26:40

   2. LFLex Fridman26:40

      You've said that, uh, Leonard Cohen is, uh, a songwriting inspiration of yours. I saw you perform his song, Chelsea Hotel, brilliantly on the internet. Um, it's about, for people who don't know, is a, his love affair with, uh, Janet Joplin. How does that song make you feel?

   3. TWTal Wilkenfeld27:01

      Great. I love that song.

   4. LFLex Fridman27:03

      Which aspect? Musically, the melancholy feeling, the hopeful feeling, the, the cocky feeling? All of it, like e- every single line has a different feeling to it, really.

   5. TWTal Wilkenfeld27:16

      Yeah, but as a whole piece I, I, I appreciate it so much. I actually lived at the Chelsea Hotel and when, when Leonard and I first met, that was one of the first things we talked about was that, you know, I lived there where all that stuff went down (laughs) before they tore it apart. And, um, yeah, I, it's just a beautiful song.

   6. LFLex Fridman27:44

      You know, it makes me sad the way it ends, "I don't mean to suggest that I loved you the best. I can't keep track of each fallen robin. I remember you well in the Chelsea Hotel, that's all. I don't even think of you that often." You know, that line, "I don't even think of you that often," always like, breaks my heart for some reason.

   7. TWTal Wilkenfeld28:04

      Hmm.

   8. LFLex Fridman28:04

      Like, how ephemeral, how short lasting like, certain love affairs can be. It's just kinda like, huh.

   9. TWTal Wilkenfeld28:14

      Yeah.

   10. LFLex Fridman28:14

       Do you think he meant it? I always think he doesn't, he's trying to convince himself of it.

   11. TWTal Wilkenfeld28:19

       It could be both.

   12. LFLex Fridman28:20

       (laughs)

   13. TWTal Wilkenfeld28:20

       Or either, you know? I mean, that's the beautiful thing about poetry and lyric is that it's supposed to be open.

   14. LFLex Fridman28:27

       Yeah. I wonder if it's also open to him depending on the day, you know?

   15. TWTal Wilkenfeld28:30

       Definitely. I mean, the thing that he taught me, um, or his advice to me was, "When you're writing a song, look at it the next morning, like just first thing and read it, and then take a walk. Smoke a joint. Read it again. Go have a fight with your, you know, daughter. Come back. Read it again. Get drunk. Read it again. Wait a week. Read it again."

   16. LFLex Fridman29:00

       Mm-hmm.

   17. TWTal Wilkenfeld29:01

       Just so that, you know, from every state and every position that you, the, the wider the lens is gonna be-

   18. LFLex Fridman29:09

       Yeah.

   19. TWTal Wilkenfeld29:09

       ... from an audience perspective. You want things to mean multiple things.

   20. LFLex Fridman29:14

       Uh, so there's one line I read somewhere that he regrets putting in the song. So I gotta ask you about it, it's pretty edgy. It's about, uh, "giving me head on the unmade bed."

   21. TWTal Wilkenfeld29:25

       Yeah.

   22. LFLex Fridman29:25

       You think that's a good line or bad line?

   23. TWTal Wilkenfeld29:27

       I think it's an amazing line. It's one of the best lines-

   24. LFLex Fridman29:29

       Yeah.

   25. TWTal Wilkenfeld29:29

       ... in the song.

   26. LFLex Fridman29:30

       Yeah, right?

   27. TWTal Wilkenfeld29:30

       When he put that song out, obviously he didn't regret it or he wouldn't have put that lyric-

   28. LFLex Fridman29:35

       Mm-hmm.

   29. TWTal Wilkenfeld29:35

       ... in the song. I think what happened was that eventually word got out either from him or from somebody else that the song was about Janis Joplin.

   30. LFLex Fridman29:45

       Yes.
5. 34:39 – 46:00

   Taxi Driver

   1. TWTal Wilkenfeld34:40

   2. LFLex Fridman34:40

      You said you sometimes watch classic movies to inspire your songwriting, and you mentioned watching Taxi Driver. I love that movie, and I think you mentioned that you wrote a love song based on that movie. So Travis Bickle, for people who don't know, is, uh, he's a taxi driver and, uh, he's deeply lonely. What do you think about that kind of loneliness?

   3. TWTal Wilkenfeld35:02

      I think that loneliness is a product of feeling separate from the world and separate from others, and that the less you experience that separation, the less you'll feel lonely.

   4. LFLex Fridman35:20

      How often have you felt lonely in this way? Separated from the rest of the world?

   5. TWTal Wilkenfeld35:25

      It's less and less every single year 'cause I work very hard at, at it.

   6. LFLex Fridman35:34

      Feeling l- a part of the world?

   7. TWTal Wilkenfeld35:37

      Yeah, just meditating and studying scriptures and-

   8. LFLex Fridman35:40

      Don't you think that, I mean, isn't there a fundamental loneliness to the human experience? Just-

   9. TWTal Wilkenfeld35:45

      In what sense?

   10. LFLex Fridman35:46

       That all the struggles, all the suffering you experience is really experienced by you alone?

   11. TWTal Wilkenfeld35:52

       Is it?

   12. LFLex Fridman35:53

       Maybe at the very bottom, it's not.

   13. TWTal Wilkenfeld35:55

       It's kind of all the same stuff.

   14. LFLex Fridman35:57

       You didn't feel alone in 2016, 2017?

   15. TWTal Wilkenfeld36:02

       I felt like I lost a piece of myself that I had given to somebody else, and I feel like people feel that in romantic, um, exchanges, whether it's long-term, short-term. You give a piece of yourself, and then if that person dies or you break up with that person, you feel like you've lost that piece of yourself, which I feel like is very different experience than if you just are opening yourself rather than giving a piece of yourself. You're just opening yourself to somebody or something.

   16. LFLex Fridman36:38

       Yeah.So, opening is fundamentally not a lonely experience.

   17. TWTal Wilkenfeld36:42

       Mm-mm. No, it's a loving experience.

   18. LFLex Fridman36:45

       And then losing a piece of yourself can be.

   19. TWTal Wilkenfeld36:50

       Yeah, 'cause you can't really, you can't lose a piece of yourself if you are the same self as every other self.

   20. LFLex Fridman36:57

       Right, right. So, if you see yourself as together with everybody, then there's no losing.

   21. TWTal Wilkenfeld37:01

       Yeah.

   22. LFLex Fridman37:02

       Yeah. Yeah, it's a beautiful way to look at it. You said that, uh, there's something healing about being in an empty hotel room-

   23. TWTal Wilkenfeld37:10

       Mm.

   24. LFLex Fridman37:11

       ... with no attachments-

   25. TWTal Wilkenfeld37:12

       (laughs)

   26. LFLex Fridman37:12

       ... except your suitcase. You know, a lot of people talk about hotel rooms being a fundamentally lonely experience.

   27. TWTal Wilkenfeld37:20

       Mm.

   28. LFLex Fridman37:20

       But you're saying it's-

   29. TWTal Wilkenfeld37:22

       It's healing.

   30. LFLex Fridman37:22

       ... it's a b- it's healing.
6. 46:00 – 49:40

   Songwriting

   1. LFLex Fridman46:00

      I heard you say that you wrote a love song after Taxi Driver, what, um, kind of love songs do you write more of? Broken... So, you're a songwriter first, for people who don't know. They might think you're primarily a bassist, but you're-

   2. TWTal Wilkenfeld46:14

      But they're wrong.

   3. LFLex Fridman46:16

      So, do you write (laughs) mostly broken heart ones or, like, hopeful love songs, in love songs, about to be in love songs, soon to fall in love songs?

   4. TWTal Wilkenfeld46:27

      Um, well, the last album I put out, that is pretty-

   5. LFLex Fridman46:29

      Yeah.

   6. TWTal Wilkenfeld46:30

      ... self-explanatory as to what that is.

   7. LFLex Fridman46:31

      Mm-hmm.

   8. TWTal Wilkenfeld46:32

      Um-

   9. LFLex Fridman46:33

      A lot of pain in that one?

   10. TWTal Wilkenfeld46:35

       There was, yeah.

   11. LFLex Fridman46:36

       Mm-hmm.

   12. TWTal Wilkenfeld46:37

       Some of it was storytelling and some of it was real experience, and it's always like a combination of, of things. Like, what, I- I serve the song, so sometimes you use your own, uh, life experience to tell a song, and sometimes you may watch a movie and part of that script, uh, merges with your own experience-

   13. LFLex Fridman47:03

       Okay.

   14. TWTal Wilkenfeld47:03

       ... and that tells the right story for the point you're trying to make-

   15. LFLex Fridman47:06

       Mm-hmm.

   16. TWTal Wilkenfeld47:07

       ... in the song. So, it's, it varies from song to song, like, in terms of how, like, autobiographical it is.

   17. LFLex Fridman47:14

       Yeah. That was the, at the end of Taxi Driver when, um, what's her name, Betsy? Because Travis becomes a hero, she tries to get with him and he rejects her also. That was powerful.

   18. TWTal Wilkenfeld47:28

       My favorite love songs are the ones where you're not sure it's about romantic love or love of God or love of life or just pure, just love. Like, I was thinking, like, George Harrison writes songs like that, like, What Is Life?

   19. LFLex Fridman47:48

       Mm-hmm.

   20. TWTal Wilkenfeld47:49

       Or, like, Bob Dylan's song that, that George Harrison covered, If Not For You.

   21. LFLex Fridman47:54

       Yeah, just grateful, grateful for his love, yeah.

   22. TWTal Wilkenfeld47:56

       Right, right. That's kind of, like, where, or what I'm experiencing now, and so who knows what'll end up coming out, but...

   23. LFLex Fridman48:05

       So, you've been writing this kinda...

   24. TWTal Wilkenfeld48:07

       Yeah, I've been writing.

   25. LFLex Fridman48:09

       A little bit?

   26. TWTal Wilkenfeld48:10

       I don't have, like, an intention of, like, putting something out in, in, in any particular time frame, but I'm just writing and letting things flow.

   27. LFLex Fridman48:19

       Mm-hmm.

   28. TWTal Wilkenfeld48:20

       And, yeah, I lo- there's, like, a bunch of, like, Leonard Cohen songs to- too, where you're like, there's so many ways to interpret this song and-

   29. LFLex Fridman48:31

       Yeah.

   30. TWTal Wilkenfeld48:31

       ... there's so many ways... I just love songs that don't, aren't, like, so, like, specifically about one thing.
7. 49:40 – 1:08:10

   How to learn and practice

   1. LFLex Fridman49:40

      You picked up the guitar when you were 14. Let's go back. And one interesting thing that just jumped out at me is you said you learned how to practice in your head because you only had 30 minutes.

   2. TWTal Wilkenfeld49:52

      Yeah.

   3. LFLex Fridman49:52

      Your parents would only let you practice for 30 minutes.

   4. TWTal Wilkenfeld49:55

      Yeah.

   5. LFLex Fridman49:56

      I read somewhere that Coltrane did the same. He was, not the practice part, but he was able to play instruments in his head-

   6. TWTal Wilkenfeld50:03

      Mm-hmm.

   7. LFLex Fridman50:03

      ... as a way to, like, think through different lines, different musical thoughts, that kind of stuff.

   8. TWTal Wilkenfeld50:09

      Yeah.

   9. LFLex Fridman50:10

      I just, um... Maybe can you tell the story of that?

   10. TWTal Wilkenfeld50:14

       Yeah. I just grew up in a- a environment that was, uh, focused on academia.

   11. LFLex Fridman50:20

       Yeah.

   12. TWTal Wilkenfeld50:21

       And I fell in love with guitar and really just wanted the focus to be that. Um, so my limit was 30 minutes a day for I don't even remember how many times a week. Might've been every day or f- five days a week, whatever.

   13. LFLex Fridman50:36

       So, your parents didn't want you to play more than that?

   14. TWTal Wilkenfeld50:39

       Um, no. And so I just learned how to visualize the fretboard in my head and I'd practice all day in my head. It's kind of like, you know the- the- uh, The Queen's Gambit, the TV show-

   15. LFLex Fridman50:52

       Mm-hmm.

   16. TWTal Wilkenfeld50:52

       ... with Anya Taylor-Joy? And she just, like-

   17. LFLex Fridman50:54

       On the ceiling?

   18. TWTal Wilkenfeld50:54

       ... uses it on the ceiling. I used to do that with a fretboard.

   19. LFLex Fridman50:56

       (laughs)

   20. TWTal Wilkenfeld50:57

       Yeah, and just practice. And I actually recommend it to every musician because if you're just practicing here, uh, you don't know what is more dominant necessarily. Is it this or is it your motor skills?

   21. LFLex Fridman51:13

       Mm-hmm.

   22. TWTal Wilkenfeld51:13

       If you just take that away and do it here, you know you've got it.

   23. LFLex Fridman51:18

       Mm-hmm.

   24. TWTal Wilkenfeld51:18

       So, I'm glad that that happened and that I learned how to do that. And in terms of, like, learning fast, 'cause like I had to, like, learn how to... Well, I had to try to absorb a lot of information in a short amount of time when I did have the instrument.

   25. LFLex Fridman51:33

       Mm-hmm.

   26. TWTal Wilkenfeld51:34

       I kind of would, like, do things in bursts, like even in that half an hour.

   27. LFLex Fridman51:41

       (laughs)

   28. TWTal Wilkenfeld51:41

       I would just go, like play for a couple minutes and then I'd stop for, like, a minute. And then I'd do it again and I noticed there was, like, a huge difference-

   29. LFLex Fridman51:49

       Mm-hmm.

   30. TWTal Wilkenfeld51:49

       ... between the first time and the second time. Whereas if I just kept repeating stuff, it would be, like, much slower.
8. 1:08:10 – 1:14:33

   Slap vs Fingerstyle

   1. LFLex Fridman1:08:10

      Can you educate me on the difference between bass?

   2. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:08:13

      Bass and bass? Okay, well one is a fish. (laughs)

   3. LFLex Fridman1:08:16

      (laughs) At least I pronounced it correctly. That's good. Uh, it's all about the bass.

   4. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:08:20

      Can you pronounce my- my name?

   5. LFLex Fridman1:08:22

      Tal.

   6. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:08:23

      Wow. (laughs) Mo- most people say Tal-

   7. LFLex Fridman1:08:27

      Tal.

   8. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:08:28

      ... or Tall. You said Tall-

   9. LFLex Fridman1:08:30

      Tall. Who says Tall?

   10. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:08:31

       ... like so many people.

   11. LFLex Fridman1:08:32

       In- in the South maybe, Tall.

   12. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:08:34

       I don't know but the fact that you said my name right-

   13. LFLex Fridman1:08:35

       Oh, honey Tal.

   14. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:08:36

       ... you get extra points.

   15. LFLex Fridman1:08:37

       Tal. I can't... I didn't know it was a game. Am I winning? (laughs)

   16. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:08:41

       Yeah.

   17. LFLex Fridman1:08:41

       I like winning.

   18. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:08:42

       (laughs)

   19. LFLex Fridman1:08:44

       (laughs) How do you play the bass? Uh, what's the difference between finger style and slap?

   20. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:08:48

       Slap is like this, finger style is like this. (laughs)

   21. LFLex Fridman1:08:51

       You ever- ever played bass with a pick?

   22. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:08:52

       Yeah, sometimes.

   23. LFLex Fridman1:08:54

       I'm not accusing you of anything.

   24. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:08:55

       No accusation taken.

   25. LFLex Fridman1:08:57

       I don't know if these are sensitive topics, like if-

   26. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:08:59

       That would be pretty hilarious if I was sensitive about bass techniques but like, not about like, love.

   27. LFLex Fridman1:09:05

       It just looks so cool to like slap it and I don't understand what that's about. Like that thumb thing that...

   28. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:09:11

       Yeah. I slap less. Um, a lot less. Almost never actually. Um, it has a very distinctive sound and ha- does a very distinctive thing to a song.

   29. LFLex Fridman1:09:23

       Mm-hmm.

   30. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:09:23

       That, um, is not something I hear needed very often in music today.
9. 1:14:33 – 1:18:53

   Davie504

   1. LFLex Fridman1:14:33

      well, do you know a guy named Davie 504?

   2. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:14:36

      I've heard of him.

   3. LFLex Fridman1:14:37

      I recently learned of him. He's a YouTuber and a bass player. He's amazing.

   4. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:14:42

      Cool.

   5. LFLex Fridman1:14:42

      He combines memes and also just these brilliant bass compositions, and says slap like a lot. He's big into slapping.

   6. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:14:50

      Yeah.

   7. LFLex Fridman1:14:50

      That's- that's how, that's, he's the one that kinda-

   8. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:14:52

      (laughs)

   9. LFLex Fridman1:14:52

      ... made me realize this is a thing, okay? And he also said that you're one of the best, if not the best bassists in the world. There's a bunch of his fans that wrote in and he analyzed the Jeff Beck thing that we watched at Crossroads, as one of the greatest solos ever, bass solos ever. So, shout out to him. What does that make you feel like? You're the greatest-

   10. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:15:12

       Chocolate-

   11. LFLex Fridman1:15:12

       ... of all time?

   12. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:15:13

       ... chocolate cookies.

   13. LFLex Fridman1:15:14

       Chocolate, is that your favorite?

   14. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:15:16

       I like macadamia nut, like if I, if you really wanna get into it with like white chocolate.

   15. LFLex Fridman1:15:21

       Yeah. That's a rare one for people to say-

   16. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:15:23

       Yeah.

   17. LFLex Fridman1:15:23

       ... is the favorite.

   18. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:15:24

       Chocolate chip is just like easy, you can kinda get them anywhere.

   19. LFLex Fridman1:15:27

       Yeah. Last thing you wanna be is easy-

   20. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:15:29

       (laughs)

   21. LFLex Fridman1:15:29

       ... in this world. You don't wanna be easy. You said that "I love rock and roll" quote, "I love folk, I love jazz, I love Indian classical music. I really love all kinds of music as long as it's authentic and from the heart." So when you play rock versus ja- you played all kinds of music, uh, what's the difference technically, musically, spiritually, for you?

   22. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:15:49

       Well, there's no spiritual difference.

   23. LFLex Fridman1:15:50

       Okay, all right.

   24. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:15:51

       Um-

   25. LFLex Fridman1:15:51

       Cross that off the list.

   26. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:15:52

       (laughs) But, uh, well musically, yeah, it's kinda like what we were saying earlier. It's like each genre has its language of what makes it that genre.

   27. LFLex Fridman1:16:09

       Mm-hmm.

   28. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:16:10

       Um, and th- that would be a good thing to say it's defined by the, you know, the do's and don'ts, um, because, yeah, it's like... I'm trying to think. Basically, I put the song first, and I think of the song as the melody, the lyrics, and then the harmony, and obviously the groove.

   29. LFLex Fridman1:16:34

       So- so the song goes before the genre, in a sense? Each- each song is like its own thing?

   30. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:16:39

       They're both things that are held in my mind. It's like, okay, genre and then song, which is comprised of those basic, you know, elements. Um, and I tend to kind of prioritize lyric because somebody is trying to express something over music. And so that, uh, the lyric is very, very important. And so then the choices come from there. It's like, okay, within the genre of X, um, this is the typical language.
10. 1:18:53 – 1:24:30

    Prince

    1. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:18:53

       okay, my favorite thing about going into a session with- with musicians that I adore is that we don't hear the demo, 'cause if you hear a demo, you're hearing what the producer or songwriter have already imagined that every instrument is playing. And then it's like, well, I've already heard what you want, now my mind is, part of my mind is focused on what I already know you want and what the destination's gonna be, why did you bring me in here?

    2. LFLex Fridman1:19:17

       Yeah.

    3. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:19:18

       I wanna not hear it. I just want you to sit at a piano and sing the song with, uh, I wanna hear the chords and the lyric. And then w- or sit at an acoustic guitar, play it, and then let's all go in the room. And then take one-

    4. LFLex Fridman1:19:31

       Mm-hmm.

    5. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:19:31

       ... I would say 80% of the time, take one has the most gold. And there might be, like, a mistake or two, or someone forgot to go to the B section, and you might wanna, like, punch that in so that you're hitting the right chord. But all the magic is in that take.

    6. LFLex Fridman1:19:47

       (laughs)

    7. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:19:47

       And then sometimes it happens where it's like you go, it's like we're rehearsing in take one, two, three, four. Fi- and then you're, like, thinking about it too much, and then you go and you have a dinner, and you come back, and the next take one-

    8. LFLex Fridman1:20:00

       (laughs)

    9. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:20:00

       ... after dinner, is the one.

    10. LFLex Fridman1:20:01

        Yeah, yeah.

    11. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:20:01

        Like, it's usually after there's some sort of a break.

    12. LFLex Fridman1:20:05

        Mm-hmm.

    13. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:20:06

        But, but obvi- obviously there's exceptions to that rule. Sometimes it's take two or three.

    14. LFLex Fridman1:20:10

        Yeah, you said, uh, you said that this is something that surprised you about recording with Prince, is that he would just, so much of it would be take one.

    15. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:20:19

        Yeah.

    16. LFLex Fridman1:20:19

        So quick, it would just move so quickly.

    17. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:20:21

        Yeah. Well, with that particular album that we made together, it's called Welcome to America. He called me up and asked me, he said, "I wanna make a band with you. I'm, like, really inspired by what you're doing with Jeff Beck. I wanna make a trio. Do you like the drum rolls of Jack DeJohnette?" was, like, his first question to me. I'm like, "Well, yeah, who doesn't? Who doesn't like Jack DeJohnette? Like, one of the greatest of all time." And he's like, "Well, you know, uh, sounds like," 'cause we had a discussion about drumming, "Sound, sounds like you're, you're kind of particular about drummers, so why don't you find us the drummer, and I'll trust you to find the drummer. You can audition some people, send me some recordings of maybe your two favorites, and I'll pick, pick out of the two or something." So, I did that. Went on a journey, found a couple guys. He picked the one. We went in, and, um, he basically just would be like, "Okay, so the A section's gonna go like this, and then the B section, I think we're gonna, gonna go to, uh, G, and da, da. And then the bridge, I might go to B flat, but maybe I'll hold off and duh, duh, duh. Okay, let's go. One, two, three, four."

    18. LFLex Fridman1:21:27

        Wow.

    19. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:21:28

        And then we recorded it to tape. There was no pu- he did not want me to punch anything. Like, it was like... And there was one song called, um, Same Page, Different Book.

    20. LFLex Fridman1:21:39

        Mm-hmm.

    21. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:21:39

        And, uh, and he, like, talked through it just like he did. And then he had me soloing between each phrase, like little fills. It was like, "All right." I didn't know that that was gonna come up, and that... And he loved that. He loved the, to have me on the edge of my seat-

    22. LFLex Fridman1:21:54

        Mm-hmm.

    23. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:21:54

        ... like, falling off the cliff.

    24. LFLex Fridman1:21:56

        (laughs)

    25. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:21:56

        That was my first, like, real, like, falling off a cliff moment from somebody else holding me at the edge of the cliff.

    26. LFLex Fridman1:22:04

        Yeah.

    27. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:22:04

        You know what I mean? Um.

    28. LFLex Fridman1:22:06

        (laughs)

    29. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:22:06

        Now, I just do it on my own 'cause it's so f- it's so fun and makes sense. It's, it's the best thing for the music.

    30. LFLex Fridman1:22:13

        When you say, "Punch the tape," is that, is that when you actually record it? Say it?
11. 1:24:30 – 1:26:44

    Jimi Hendrix

    1. LFLex Fridman1:24:30

       Let me ask you about, just come back to Hendrix, 'cause you said that you had three CDs, Jimi Hendrix, Herbie Hancock, and Rage Against the Machine. First of all, great combination.

    2. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:24:39

       (laughs)

    3. LFLex Fridman1:24:40

       I'm a big rage fan.

    4. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:24:42

       It's so funny, 'cause like, when I listen to some of the music that I create, like my solo music, I'm like, "I could see how this is a combination of Herbie Hancock, Rage Against the Machine, and Jimi Hendrix." (laughs)

    5. LFLex Fridman1:24:55

       (laughs)

    6. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:24:55

       Like, I, I hear the influences. It's funny.

    7. LFLex Fridman1:24:58

       Just from your musician perspective, what, what's interesting to you about, what really stands out to you about Hendrix? I just would love to hear, like, a real, professional musician's opinion of Hendrix.

    8. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:25:13

       I love that he is two voices...... combined into one voice. So, it's like there is his voice on the guitar and there is his, his singing voice, and there is the combination of the two that make one voice. And of course, the third element is his songwriting.

    9. LFLex Fridman1:25:36

       Mm-hmm.

    10. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:25:36

        And all of this have, have this beautiful chemistry and all work geniously, perfectly together. And there's nothing like it. And you know, he, he always beat himself up about being a singer and like he didn't like his voice, but it's like my favorite singers are the singers that don't sound like singers.

    11. LFLex Fridman1:25:58

        Bob Dylan, you said-

    12. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:25:59

        Bob Dylan.

    13. LFLex Fridman1:26:00

        ... you like Bob Dylan.

    14. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:26:01

        Love Bob Dylan.

    15. LFLex Fridman1:26:03

        You love his voice too.

    16. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:26:04

        I love his voice.

    17. LFLex Fridman1:26:06

        Can you explain? Your, the, your love affair with Bob Dylan's voice?

    18. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:26:10

        He's express- he's expressing his lyrics. There's, it's just-

    19. LFLex Fridman1:26:14

        Something like that.

    20. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:26:14

        ... pure expression, exactly what he means. I feel everything that he's saying with 100% authenticity.

    21. LFLex Fridman1:26:24

        Yeah.

    22. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:26:24

        That's what I wanna hear from a singer. I don't care how many runs you can do and blah, blah, blah. Like, I wanna believe what you're saying.

    23. LFLex Fridman1:26:33

        Leonard Cohen is that.

    24. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:26:34

        Mm-hmm. There's countless, like Neil Young. I mean, there, there's so many musicians. I love Elliott Smith for that reason.

12. 1:26:44 – 1:33:02

    Mentorship

    1. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:26:44

    2. LFLex Fridman1:26:44

       Let me ask you about mentorship. You said, uh, teachers and mentors, you had mentors. W- what's a good mentor for you, harsh or supportive?

    3. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:26:54

       Supportive.

    4. LFLex Fridman1:26:55

       Supportive. You seen Whiplash, the movie? So that guy, somebody's screaming at you, like kicking you off the cliff.

    5. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:27:03

       Not necessary. I feel like anybody that's truly passionate about something that they wanna be great at or a master of, or this and that, they've already got that person inside their own head.

    6. LFLex Fridman1:27:14

       Mm-hmm.

    7. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:27:15

       You, you don't need somebody else to do that for you. I think you need love, acceptance, guidance, support, time, um, advice if you ask for it. Just a space. Just a nice open space. All my mentors were just that for me. They didn't tell me to do anything. They, they didn't care. Like, 'cause they're not, they're, why do they need to be invested in where I'm going? Only I know where I'm going. So, for some mentor to come and be like, "This is what you need to be doing and practice this." It's like, but why? What if that's not my path? That might be your path. So, I'm not really... Again, otherwise it feels like a sport.

    8. LFLex Fridman1:28:00

       Mm-hmm.

    9. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:28:00

       Like, who can run the fastest race? And it's like, well, okay, well, I, I get that for that, for sport. Maybe it makes sense to have someone a bit more hardcore. But still, like, I would say athletes have the same mentality. They've got, they've got that in them already too.

    10. LFLex Fridman1:28:14

        Mm-hmm.

    11. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:28:14

        Like, so I think more like of a strategic approach to mentorship works really well. And mainly just hav- having an open space and just being available to someone.

    12. LFLex Fridman1:28:27

        Mm-hmm. And kind of show that you, they see the special in you.

    13. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:28:31

        Yeah. Yeah.

    14. LFLex Fridman1:28:31

        And they give you the room to develop that special whatever.

    15. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:28:35

        Exactly. 'Cause if you do have that harsh critic inside you, it's like, it is nice to have somebody that isn't like your family or someone that's not obligated in any way, that just sees your talent and they're like, "Yeah. I dig what you're doing. Keep doing it."

    16. LFLex Fridman1:28:51

        Yeah. It's funny that that's not a- a- always easy to come by.

    17. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:28:56

        Do you have any mentors?

    18. LFLex Fridman1:28:58

        Yeah, I've had a few recently. But for most of my life, people didn't really... You know, I- I'm very much like that too. Like, somebody to pat me on the back and say like, like, see something in you of value. Um, yeah, I didn't really have that. So...

    19. TWTal Wilkenfeld1:29:16

        Do you wish you did?

    20. LFLex Fridman1:29:17

        Yeah. Yeah. But maybe the wishing that I did is the thing that made me who I am. Not having it, the longing for that, maybe that's the thing that, um, helped me develop a constant sense of longing, which I think (laughs) -

Episode duration: 1:50:08