Teddy Atlas: Mike Tyson, Cus D'Amato, Boxing, Loyalty, Fear & Greatness | Lex Fridman Podcast #406

1. 0:00 – 3:25

   Introduction

   1. TATeddy Atlas0:00

      ... that's all that matters, that he got there, that he got to the place to act like a fighter, to, to do what we want him to do, to be ready to persevere, to go beyond the comfort level.

   2. LFLex Fridman0:09

      Mm-hmm.

   3. TATeddy Atlas0:10

      To do another round.

   4. LFLex Fridman0:11

      Mm-hmm.

   5. TATeddy Atlas0:12

      He didn't want to. Damn right he didn't want to. But he knew we want him to, and he knew in order to pass the test, he had to do it.

   6. LFLex Fridman0:21

      Mm-hmm.

   7. TATeddy Atlas0:22

      He goes, "Now it's gonna be your job to get him in the gym, make him mentally stronger, make him face things, and teach him how to slip punches, and create holes, and fill those freaking holes with devastating punches." This is Cus. "With punches with bad intentions."

   8. LFLex Fridman0:40

      The following is a conversation with Teddy Atlas, a legendary, and at times controversial, boxing trainer and commentator. When I was going to this conversation with Teddy, I was ready to talk boxing. Styles, matches, techniques, tactics, and his analysis of individual fighters like Mike Tyson, Michael Moorer, Klitschkos, Usyk, Povetkin, Lomachenko, Triple G, Canelo, Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray Leonard, Hagler, Duran, Floyd, and on and on and on. Like I said, I came ready to talk boxing. But I stayed for something even bigger, the Shakespearean human story of Teddy Atlas, Cus D'Amato, and Mike Tyson. It's a story about loyalty, betrayal, fear, and greatness. It's a story where nobody is perfect and everybody is human. To summarize, in the early '80s, young trainer Teddy Atlas worked with his mentor, Cus D'Amato, in training the young boxing protégé, now a boxing legend, Mike Tyson. Mike was a troubled youth, arrested over 40 times. And at age 15 he was sexually inappropriate with Teddy's 11-year-old niece. In response to this, Teddy put a .38 caliber handgun to Tyson's ear and told him to never touch his family again or he would kill him if he did. For this, Cus D'Amato kicked Teddy out. Why? Well, that's complicated. In part, I think, to help minimize the chance of Mike Tyson, who Cus legally adopted, uh, would be taken away by the state, and with him, the dream of developing one of the greatest boxers of all time. Of course, that summary doesn't capture the full complexity of human nature and human drama involved here. For that, you have to listen to this conversation, the things said, and the things left unsaid, the pain in Teddy's voice, the contradictions of love and anger that permeate his stories and his philosophy on life. Like I said, I came to talk about boxing and stayed to talk about life. This conversation will stay with me for a long time. The people close to you, the people you trust, the people you love are everything. And if they betray you and break your heart, forgive them. Forgive yourself and try again. Happy holidays, everyone. I love you all. This is the Lex Friedman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Teddy Atlas.

2. 3:25 – 13:31

   Lessons from father

   1. LFLex Fridman3:26

      You wrote in the book that your father had a big influence on your life. What lessons have you learned about life from your father?

   2. TATeddy Atlas3:34

      When you ask that question, you know, I remember Cus D'Amato, when I was with him up in Gattsof all those years, he used to say to me, "Teddy, you, you learn through osmosis." I, I believe there's truth to that, if I know what osmosis is. And...

   3. LFLex Fridman3:50

      (laughs)

   4. TATeddy Atlas3:50

      (laughs) And I... But it sounds good.

   5. LFLex Fridman3:53

      Yeah, yeah.

   6. TATeddy Atlas3:53

      But I learned through osmosis with my father. He, he wasn't a big talker. He was, you know, he was a doer. And I... When you're around someone who lives a certain kind of life and does certain things, uh, it penetrates.

   7. LFLex Fridman4:10

      He was a doctor.

   8. TATeddy Atlas4:11

      He was... I, I'm gonna sound like an idiot right now because I'm being a son, uh, but he was the greatest diagnostic doctor...

   9. LFLex Fridman4:21

      Yeah.

   10. TATeddy Atlas4:21

       I mean, if I say I have a new, what does that mean?

   11. LFLex Fridman4:24

       Yeah.

   12. TATeddy Atlas4:24

       You know what I mean? Are you a doctor? You know? (laughs)

   13. LFLex Fridman4:26

       (laughs)

   14. TATeddy Atlas4:26

       You know what I mean? Like, what does that mean? But other people have told me this.

   15. LFLex Fridman4:31

       Yeah.

   16. TATeddy Atlas4:31

       Like, just legendary stories.

   17. LFLex Fridman4:33

       He would do house calls and help people. And like you said, a lot of people have spoken about the impact he's had on their life.

   18. TATeddy Atlas4:38

       He built two hospitals. And he, he built a hospital before the Verrazzano Bridge in New York, uh, connecting Brooklyn to Staten Island. And he, he built it so people could get proper hospital care that couldn't afford it, period. And, um, everybody looked at him as, uh, eccentric.

   19. LFLex Fridman4:57

       Yeah, nice. That's a good word.

   20. TATeddy Atlas4:59

       Y- Y- Yeah, because, because (laughs) because he, he would literally sneak patients... Not sneak them in, he was Dr. Atlas, he could do what he wanted to a certain extent, but he would bring patients in without ad- administering, uh, putting them through administration so there was no charge, because, you know, they, they didn't have anything. They were street people.

   21. LFLex Fridman5:18

       Yeah.

   22. TATeddy Atlas5:18

       They were... I, I remember being... My only way to be with my father was to go on house calls.

   23. LFLex Fridman5:24

       Yeah.

   24. TATeddy Atlas5:25

       Or to go to the office. There was no... You know. And so I went on house calls with him. And he did house calls, by the way, till he was 80.

   25. LFLex Fridman5:31

       Mm-hmm.

   26. TATeddy Atlas5:31

       And, and $3. I mean, it was better than, like, McDonald's, you know what I mean? I mean, the deal. Uh, you... It's $3 and you got medicine, you got everything. And, but he used to, right around the holidays, there was just certain things that I didn't understand but I understood later, where we would just drive certain areas and he'd just always run over his door and he, he would pick up these homeless... And, you know, I'm-

   27. LFLex Fridman5:58

       Help them.

   28. TATeddy Atlas5:59

       I'm 10 years old.

   29. LFLex Fridman6:00

       Yeah.

   30. TATeddy Atlas6:00

       You know, "Move over." They move over, you know.
3. 13:31 – 34:09

   Scar story

   1. TATeddy Atlas13:31

      Wow."

   2. LFLex Fridman13:32

      I gotta ask you, when did you discover boxing? What... When did you first fall in love with boxing?

   3. TATeddy Atlas13:39

      When it saved me.

   4. LFLex Fridman13:41

      How did it save you?

   5. TATeddy Atlas13:43

      I, I was, I was a stupid, violent kid that was angry, not exactly (laughs) knowing why he was angry. Uh, I'd fit in real good in today's society because there's a lot of angry kids out there that I don't think they know why they're angry. I was, I was just out there getting in fights. And, um, I got this stupid thing from that.

   6. LFLex Fridman14:05

      Can you tell the story of how you got that?

   7. TATeddy Atlas14:07

      I was just running around doing stupid things, bad things. I hurt people, some people physically, but I hurt, I hurt my f- my f- my family. You know, that's BS, uh, you only hurt yourself, you know. That, that's a good way of, you know, alibiing it, um, you know, just, but it, if... At some point the truth usually finds its way. I'd like it to look like I was just hurting myself, but it wasn't, obviously. So, uh, I was just out on the streets with kids that didn't grow up in the neighborhood I grew up. I grew up in a neighborhood where our father was a doctor. And, um, I walked down the street. The funny thing was down, down the hill was a very tough neighborhood called Stapleton. And most of the people down there on the corners wished that they could get up the hill, and I, I wished I could get down the hill. So I went down the hill, and I hung out with all these friends that became lifelong friends. And, uh, I, um, I gravitated to that because I, I figured out later a little bit, but, you know, I wanted family.

   8. LFLex Fridman15:17

      Mm.

   9. TATeddy Atlas15:18

      We were a disjointed family. We were, you know... My father was a doctor. He didn't have time for nothing but being a doctor, you know. Uh, I think when you're great at something, you sacrifice something too, you know, when you're really great at something.

   10. LFLex Fridman15:31

       Mm-hmm.

   11. TATeddy Atlas15:31

       So great that maybe God made you great, and, and you're too great for your own good. And, and I don't know, it took me to these stupid dangerous places.

   12. LFLex Fridman15:42

       Yeah.

   13. TATeddy Atlas15:42

       Dangerous for me, but dangerous for other people too, because I got to the point where I was doing robberies on the street. I was, I was fighting everybody, and, and you know what the most dangerous part about it was? And I came to this realization on my own. I'm all by myself, I, I figured it out. Um, I was really as danger- you know, these kids from the projects, some of them, they got nothing.

   14. LFLex Fridman16:03

       Mm-hmm.

   15. TATeddy Atlas16:03

       You... First of all, I learned you don't have to be poor to be poor. You don't have to be deprived of certain things to be deprived. And, or, because you, at least to think you're deprived. And I was poor in a way that I didn't have the only thing I wanted to have, him.

   16. LFLex Fridman16:27

       Yeah.

   17. TATeddy Atlas16:28

       So here I, uh, uh, uh, here I am where I'm out there doing these things, and what made me more... I was more dangerous than some of these psychopaths. Well, I was a psychopath too, I guess, the way I was behaving. But some of these psychopaths that really had nothing-

   18. LFLex Fridman16:45

       Mm-hmm.

   19. TATeddy Atlas16:46

       ... um, you know, really would, you know, they obviously would kill you. I, I was da-dangerous in the, almost in the same way, but for a different reason. I know it's ridiculous what I'm about to tell you, but I figured it out, uh, 'cause I felt it. I thought I was on a righteous path. I thought I had a right-

   20. LFLex Fridman17:06

       Yeah.

   21. TATeddy Atlas17:06

       (laughs) To, because it was gonna get me my father back. Why? Why? I mean, you, you know, you're a scientist, you couldn't figure this one out. Because all the people that had him were injured people, fractured people-

   22. LFLex Fridman17:23

       Mm-hmm.

   23. TATeddy Atlas17:23

       ... screwed up people (laughs) in some ways.

   24. LFLex Fridman17:25

       Yeah.

   25. TATeddy Atlas17:25

       But, but hurt, damaged people. So if I get damaged, I'll get him. So I was on a crusade, really, a righteous crusade, where I thought it was okay. I had permission, I had permission to do these terrible things, quite frankly, and to fight everyone and do... I, I did. And then it, it came almost to a crash of doing all that, you know, winding up in Rikers Island like an idiot, not understanding the damage I did to this poor man that, you know, he, um, he was a great doctor, and, and he's gotta see his son and, uh, hear about... You know what I mean? Like, God.... I, I was out on that day, you know, with, with the guys that I grew up with now, you know, the guys from the projects, from the... As I described. And I was with one of them who, he- he's dead now. So I was, I was with him and we were, we- we were in a neighborhood, the neighborhood we grew up, that- that I hung out in, in, and they... And he grew up in, Billy. He came from the, from the projects. And we got into a thing where we cut... Somebody cuts us off, we cut them off, you know, jumped out to fight. And, um, you know, it turned out there's like five or six of them and two of us, and, um, you know, we fought, you know, right on the side right there. Only about a block from where I used to hang out. And, um, maybe a block and a half. And right in front of like a Spanish bodega. And, uh, it- it really does happen in slow motion. I actually saw the guy. I was fighting the guys that- that I had to fight, and then all of a sudden, I was able to get one guy out of the way a little bit, and, um, I really... I noticed the guy go into his pocket.

   26. LFLex Fridman19:26

       Yeah.

   27. TATeddy Atlas19:26

       And, um, I knew why he was going in his pocket, you know? And when he came out of his pocket, I knew what it was right away. It was weird because, uh, in the neighborhood guys used to hang out, they would, they went to this... You know, they get into fads like right on the streets, and they went to, at that time, they went to this cheap knife but it was... They thought it was... Well, we thought it was cool. Uh, it was a 007. And, and, um, and the cool thing or whatever, uh, was that you could flick it. (laughs)

   28. LFLex Fridman19:57

       Yeah.

   29. TATeddy Atlas19:57

       You could learn. And I learned how to flick, you know, but I never carried a knife. But- but when my friends would have it, I would just f- you learn how to... You could flick it open. Not a switchblade, but you'll flick it with your wrist. And I was like, "Here I am in the middle of this freaking fight, and all of a sudden, oh, it's a 007," you know?

   30. LFLex Fridman20:14

       Mm-hmm.
4. 34:09 – 44:21

   Cus D'Amato

   1. LFLex Fridman34:09

      You mentioned Cus, Cus D'Amato, legendary trainer, and you also mentioned, it turned out he really cared about you. In the book, you write about a testimony he gave. I was hoping I could read it 'cause it speaks to your character. It speaks to his. It's just powerful. The testimony goes, "Your Honor, I realize you might not know much about me, but I've spent my whole life developing young men. As a boxing manager, I trained two world champions, heavyweight champion Floyd Patterson and light heavyweight champion Jose Torres. I've also helped a lot of other young boys straighten out their lives and build character. I know things about Teddy Atlas this court doesn't know, things you won't find on his arrest record. This boy has character. He has loyalty. He'll hurt himself before he'll let down a friend. These qualities are rare, and they shouldn't be lost. He's made mistakes. We've all made mistakes, but I've come to know this boy, and if we lose him, we'll be losing someone who could help a lot of people. Please don't take this young boy's future away. He could be someone special. Let's not lose him, please." Those are powerful words from a powerful man. Uh, what have you learned about life from, from, uh, Mr. Cus D'Amato?

   2. TATeddy Atlas35:41

      He gave me a quote, and he drilled it into my head. I became his guy, you know? He loved me. I loved him. He, he said to me, "Teddy, no matter what a man says, (laughs) it's what he does in the end that he intended to do all along." That's what I learned from Cus. (sighs) Rest of it is BS. And, um... A lot of people, um, say things. You just have to give them a minute to f- let them show you eventually what they really meant by it. I also learned from him that, uh... Everyone's afraid.Cus has a way of saying, another great saying, you'll get a kick out this. Uh, "Anyone who's in a situation where fear should be prevalent, where sh- fear is actually necessary to survive the situation, anyone who says that they're not afraid, they're one of two things. They're either a liar or they should go to a doctor, find out what the freak's wrong with them." He was right about that. You know, we live in a, a taboo society where that word, to a certain extent, is taboo because it invokes weakness. You know? We, we, uh, we are just layers of what we saw and learned since we were kids. We all are. We're products of those layers. I learned that on my own. Um, through some help. At the end of the day, um, you know, fear, people will find their way of avoiding that term. So they use the word anxiety, they use the word, you know, butterflies, apprehension. You know? There are a million different, right, words. I find all those other words to be cousins of fear. And, and fear, fear causes a lot of things in life. It, it, it causes a lot of problems. Uh, and, and it also solves a lot of problems. Without it, uh, we couldn't be great, if we are great. If we ever have a chance to be great. Um, or at least to aspire to be great.

   3. LFLex Fridman38:22

      Ho- how does fear connect to greatness? That's a, that's a profound statement. Without fear, we wouldn't be able to be great.

   4. TATeddy Atlas38:32

      Yeah, you couldn't be great without fear, because fear allows you to be brave. (laughs) The most important word for me, in this whole, you know, conversation right, neighborhood, would be selfishness. Uh, it allows you to be, for a moment, less selfish. One of the things I learned, I guess partly on my own, everyone thinks my greatest teacher was Cus. He was a great teacher, m- mentor. My greatest teacher was my father. The one who never talked. And, um, I realized, um, one of the things to be better, towards great, um, is if you can be... Submit less than we submit. See, one of the things that I'm afraid of, one of the things I was always quitting. In my business, it's kind of not a good thing.

   5. LFLex Fridman39:27

      Mm-hmm. Every business, I think. Yours, (laughs) yours is just more, uh, clear.

   6. TATeddy Atlas39:35

      Yeah. It, it, it hurts more. (laughs)

   7. LFLex Fridman39:39

      (laughs)

   8. TATeddy Atlas39:39

      And...

   9. LFLex Fridman39:39

      True.

   10. TATeddy Atlas39:41

       (laughs)

   11. LFLex Fridman39:41

       Tru- (laughs) in the moment, at least.

   12. TATeddy Atlas39:42

       Yeah, in the moment. Uh, you're right, 100%, because some things hurt for a long time afterwards. And, um, something like regret. Regret is the worst thing in the world because it's a solitary sentence.

   13. LFLex Fridman39:56

       A solitary...

   14. TATeddy Atlas39:56

       And, and man oh man.

   15. LFLex Fridman39:58

       (laughs) That's a powerful phrase. Regret is a solitary sentence.

   16. TATeddy Atlas40:02

       So-

   17. LFLex Fridman40:02

       Oh boy.

   18. TATeddy Atlas40:03

       ... I-

   19. LFLex Fridman40:03

       You're full of good lines.

   20. TATeddy Atlas40:05

       (laughs)

   21. LFLex Fridman40:06

       (laughs)

   22. TATeddy Atlas40:06

       You know, it, it, it wasn't easy to, uh, to, (laughs) to a- accumulate them.

   23. LFLex Fridman40:14

       Yeah. Hard road.

   24. TATeddy Atlas40:15

       It, it was, it was a little bit hurtful. But, so, uh, s- submit less, because we submit every day. And if we can get to a place where we submit or compromise ourselves less, uh, we'll, we'll get to a better place.

   25. LFLex Fridman40:29

       Mm-hmm.

   26. TATeddy Atlas40:30

       You know? Again, one of the, one of the words for me that attaches to things that give you... That wind up hurting you in life, and have hurt me in life, uh, one of those boogeymen words, is the word of convenience. That's attached to everything, you know? Pe- people, people disappoint you, not because they want to disappoint you-

   27. LFLex Fridman40:55

       Mm-hmm.

   28. TATeddy Atlas40:55

       ... or let you down or betray you because they want to betray you. They do it because it's more convenient to do.

   29. LFLex Fridman41:03

       Mm-hmm.

   30. TATeddy Atlas41:03

       Than, than the other thing. An old man once told me, he said to me... I was trying to, I was trying to rationalize something. I was trying to make someone an excuse for something. I was trying to make myself better than I was. I was trying to say it was okay. (laughs) And, and he just looked at me and he, he, he liked me. And he said, "Teddy, there ain't no such thing as being a little pregnant." I was like, "Yeah." He goes, "Either you're pregnant or you're not pregnant. Either you're real or you're not real. Either you're, you know, truthful or you're not truthful. Either you're tough or you're not tough. Either you're, ei- ei- either you're, you know, committed or you're not committed. Ei- either you're in or you're out."
5. 44:21 – 2:02:17

   Mike Tyson

   1. LFLex Fridman44:21

      Uh, as people know, you and Cus D'Amato, uh, trained young Mike Tyson. And the interaction there, uh, between the three of you led to the three of you parting ways. Giving your value for loyalty, can you tell the full story of, uh, what led up to this and maybe the pain you felt from that?

   2. TATeddy Atlas44:58

      Uh, it was the f- I guess it was the second time in my life I felt betrayed. Um, the first time was when I, um, yeah, I was whatever, young, 17, and I got arrested. I was with all these older guys, tough guys, whatever, and, um... Supposedly. And, uh, the detective separated us. That's what they do. And, um, you know, they, they asked me who did whatever, whose gun, this, that, you know, all that, the particulars of obviously what we did. And, you know, i- it was me. And, um, they said, "You sure? You don't wanna change that? You don't want... Because your friends changed it." And, and these cops, they were nasty, but they were cops. They were... Either way, uh, you know, you're gonna wind up in Rikers with... And they're gonna be doing this to you.

   3. LFLex Fridman45:55

      Yeah.

   4. TATeddy Atlas45:55

      And I won't even say the things because then, uh, uh, why say them, you know? Figure it out. But, uh, you know, they're trying to get what they're trying to get, and, you know, "You wanna change it?" And, um, "No." And, but I felt very betrayed, you know?

   5. LFLex Fridman46:12

      Yeah.

   6. TATeddy Atlas46:13

      And, um, especially when I was standing in the, in the cell (laughs) in Rikers looking at the airplanes leave LaGuardia Airport-

   7. LFLex Fridman46:21

      Yeah.

   8. TATeddy Atlas46:22

      ... and then hoping I was on one. Well, you know, I was making like a deal with God that, "Let me be on one of those planes and let it crash. I- I'll take a shot."

   9. LFLex Fridman46:31

      Was part of you proud that you didn't give up your friends?

   10. TATeddy Atlas46:34

       No, because I didn't understand what proud was. I didn't understand nothing. I just understood that, um-

   11. LFLex Fridman46:40

       Rules are rules. You're just loyal, and that's it.

   12. TATeddy Atlas46:43

       I didn't even know there was an option. (laughs) I d- I didn't think there... I know the cop said you could do this, but that... There was no option. My father never had an option. But, uh, the betrayal, the private betrayal was like... And so when Cus... (laughs) We were partners. Me and Cus.

   13. LFLex Fridman47:06

       Yeah.

   14. TATeddy Atlas47:07

       Cus was retired. This stupid kid goes up there, and all of a sudden I start training fighters. (laughs) First, I wanted gloves. Cus put me into gloves. I wanted gloves, then I had injury, whatever. But bottom line is, I still want to fight. I want to turn pro. I want to fight. That was the plan. And, um, and Cus had a different plan. Cus, Cus was like, "You can't..." And he had us set up a little bit. Whatever. Without getting into it... Well, hey, he did me a favor.

   15. LFLex Fridman47:34

       (laughs)

   16. TATeddy Atlas47:35

       And I want... I'd like to think he knew he was doing me a favor. And you know what? I do think he was. He was doing himself a little bit one, too. But it, but he was doing it for the greater cause because he believed in this thing of boxing.

   17. LFLex Fridman47:47

       Mm-hmm.

   18. TATeddy Atlas47:47

       He, he believed that it changed lives. He believed that it was worthwhile.

   19. LFLex Fridman47:51

       Yeah.

   20. TATeddy Atlas47:52

       He believed that there was a power to it beyond the left hook.

   21. LFLex Fridman47:55

       The big picture of boxing-

   22. TATeddy Atlas47:57

       Yeah.

   23. LFLex Fridman47:57

       ... he believed in it.

   24. TATeddy Atlas47:58

       Yeah. He believed that to be a champion you had to be special, you had to be smart, you had to have character, you had, uh, uh, that you had to be a better person, and that you couldn't make a champion if you didn't make him a better person first-

   25. LFLex Fridman48:10

       Mm-hmm.

   26. TATeddy Atlas48:10

       ... and, and that, that this, you know, this could strengthen people. The, the sport could strengthen people in those ways. So he, he was married to it. And he, he was old, and he needed... There was no one in the gym. It was empty. And it was above a police station, which was crazy. And he needed an heir to the throne. He needed to pass it on to someone, and he saw something.And all of a sudden, he sa- he saw that my career as a boxer was less important than having me become his heir to the throne and become his trainer, his man, his guy, to continue. (laughs) That we could do a lot more for him, and for, for, for everyone. Not just for him, but for everyone. It was more like, to keep it going.

   27. LFLex Fridman49:00

       Yeah.

   28. TATeddy Atlas49:00

       Like, like, it couldn't die. It couldn't die. And then Cus was afraid that it would die with him. And he committed his whole life to it. He didn't get married because of boxing. So he didn't... So he saw me as, as, you know, uh, uh, the l- the little bit of, you know, uh, the seed to plant for, for more things to grow.

   29. LFLex Fridman49:20

       Yeah.

   30. TATeddy Atlas49:20

       Uh, before that plant died. And so he, all of a sudden, he says, "You can't fight." And I had people tell me that I could go somewhere else and fight.

Episode duration: 2:09:08