Teddy Atlas: Mike Tyson, Cus D'Amato, Boxing, Loyalty, Fear & Greatness | Lex Fridman Podcast #406

Teddy Atlas 0:00 ... that's all that matters, that he got there, that he got to the place to act like a fighter, to, to do what we want him to do, to be ready to persevere, to go beyond the comfort level.

Lex Fridman 0:09 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 0:10 To do another round.

Lex Fridman 0:11 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 0:12 He didn't want to. Damn right he didn't want to. But he knew we want him to, and he knew in order to pass the test, he had to do it.

Lex Fridman 0:21 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 0:22 He goes, "Now it's gonna be your job to get him in the gym, make him mentally stronger, make him face things, and teach him how to slip punches, and create holes, and fill those freaking holes with devastating punches." This is Cus. "With punches with bad intentions."

Lex Fridman 0:40 The following is a conversation with Teddy Atlas, a legendary, and at times controversial, boxing trainer and commentator. When I was going to this conversation with Teddy, I was ready to talk boxing. Styles, matches, techniques, tactics, and his analysis of individual fighters like Mike Tyson, Michael Moorer, Klitschkos, Usyk, Povetkin, Lomachenko, Triple G, Canelo, Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray Leonard, Hagler, Duran, Floyd, and on and on and on. Like I said, I came ready to talk boxing. But I stayed for something even bigger, the Shakespearean human story of Teddy Atlas, Cus D'Amato, and Mike Tyson. It's a story about loyalty, betrayal, fear, and greatness. It's a story where nobody is perfect and everybody is human. To summarize, in the early '80s, young trainer Teddy Atlas worked with his mentor, Cus D'Amato, in training the young boxing protégé, now a boxing legend, Mike Tyson. Mike was a troubled youth, arrested over 40 times. And at age 15 he was sexually inappropriate with Teddy's 11-year-old niece. In response to this, Teddy put a .38 caliber handgun to Tyson's ear and told him to never touch his family again or he would kill him if he did. For this, Cus D'Amato kicked Teddy out. Why? Well, that's complicated. In part, I think, to help minimize the chance of Mike Tyson, who Cus legally adopted, uh, would be taken away by the state, and with him, the dream of developing one of the greatest boxers of all time. Of course, that summary doesn't capture the full complexity of human nature and human drama involved here. For that, you have to listen to this conversation, the things said, and the things left unsaid, the pain in Teddy's voice, the contradictions of love and anger that permeate his stories and his philosophy on life. Like I said, I came to talk about boxing and stayed to talk about life. This conversation will stay with me for a long time. The people close to you, the people you trust, the people you love are everything. And if they betray you and break your heart, forgive them. Forgive yourself and try again. Happy holidays, everyone. I love you all. This is the Lex Friedman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Teddy Atlas.

Lex Fridman 3:26 You wrote in the book that your father had a big influence on your life. What lessons have you learned about life from your father?

Teddy Atlas 3:34 When you ask that question, you know, I remember Cus D'Amato, when I was with him up in Gattsof all those years, he used to say to me, "Teddy, you, you learn through osmosis." I, I believe there's truth to that, if I know what osmosis is. And...

Lex Fridman 3:50 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 3:50 (laughs) And I... But it sounds good.

Lex Fridman 3:53 Yeah, yeah.

Teddy Atlas 3:53 But I learned through osmosis with my father. He, he wasn't a big talker. He was, you know, he was a doer. And I... When you're around someone who lives a certain kind of life and does certain things, uh, it penetrates.

Lex Fridman 4:10 He was a doctor.

Teddy Atlas 4:11 He was... I, I'm gonna sound like an idiot right now because I'm being a son, uh, but he was the greatest diagnostic doctor...

Lex Fridman 4:21 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 4:21 I mean, if I say I have a new, what does that mean?

Lex Fridman 4:24 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 4:24 You know what I mean? Are you a doctor? You know? (laughs)

Lex Fridman 4:26 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 4:26 You know what I mean? Like, what does that mean? But other people have told me this.

Lex Fridman 4:31 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 4:31 Like, just legendary stories.

Lex Fridman 4:33 He would do house calls and help people. And like you said, a lot of people have spoken about the impact he's had on their life.

Teddy Atlas 4:38 He built two hospitals. And he, he built a hospital before the Verrazzano Bridge in New York, uh, connecting Brooklyn to Staten Island. And he, he built it so people could get proper hospital care that couldn't afford it, period. And, um, everybody looked at him as, uh, eccentric.

Lex Fridman 4:57 Yeah, nice. That's a good word.

Teddy Atlas 4:59 Y- Y- Yeah, because, because (laughs) because he, he would literally sneak patients... Not sneak them in, he was Dr. Atlas, he could do what he wanted to a certain extent, but he would bring patients in without ad- administering, uh, putting them through administration so there was no charge, because, you know, they, they didn't have anything. They were street people.

Lex Fridman 5:18 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 5:18 They were... I, I remember being... My only way to be with my father was to go on house calls.

Lex Fridman 5:24 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 5:25 Or to go to the office. There was no... You know. And so I went on house calls with him. And he did house calls, by the way, till he was 80.

Lex Fridman 5:31 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 5:31 And, and $3. I mean, it was better than, like, McDonald's, you know what I mean? I mean, the deal. Uh, you... It's $3 and you got medicine, you got everything. And, but he used to, right around the holidays, there was just certain things that I didn't understand but I understood later, where we would just drive certain areas and he'd just always run over his door and he, he would pick up these homeless... And, you know, I'm-

Lex Fridman 5:58 Help them.

Teddy Atlas 5:59 I'm 10 years old.

Lex Fridman 6:00 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 6:00 You know, "Move over." They move over, you know.

Lex Fridman 6:02 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 6:03 And-

Lex Fridman 6:04 It was just you, him and a homeless guy?

Teddy Atlas 6:05 A couple. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 6:06 Yeah, a couple.

Teddy Atlas 6:07 (laughs) Yeah, whatever you can fit in. Three, four.

Lex Fridman 6:09 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 6:09 You know, whatever it was.

Lex Fridman 6:11 That's a big heart.

Teddy Atlas 6:12 And then he took 'em to hospital, dropped 'em of... So, you know, I would ask questions after it was all over with. I'd say, "Dad, they're, they're sick?" He goes, "Well, uh, uh, not, not in the way." "Well, did you put them in the hospital?"

Lex Fridman 6:22 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 6:23 So he said... Yeah, and he tried to explain things to me, you know? He would try... He didn't talk much unless you asked him something. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 6:29 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 6:29 And that kind of works. And, you know, don't talk unless someone asks you something.

Lex Fridman 6:33 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 6:33 And he, he, he explained (laughs) to me that he said, um... I said, "Well, why are putting them in the hospital then?" Uh, you know, and of course the sickness was they were alcoholics. But, um, "Why, why you put 'em?" He's... It wasn't an alcohol rehab, you know? So, "Why are you putting..." And it wasn't for the purpose to dry out.

Lex Fridman 6:53 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 6:54 He wasn't trying to cure them.

Lex Fridman 6:55 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 6:55 Let's put that far, before we put-

Lex Fridman 6:57 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 6:57 ... we anointed him for sainthood-

Lex Fridman 6:59 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 6:59 ... you know, like, by Teddy Atlas.

Lex Fridman 7:01 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 7:01 So I, I was like, we, we finally get to the point. "Why you put them in there?"

Lex Fridman 7:04 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 7:05 "Well, because it's the holidays." "All right, why you put them in there?" "Well, the holidays, you know, are good for certain people and, and bad for others."

Lex Fridman 7:16 Hmm.

Teddy Atlas 7:17 And, um, and it was always before the holidays. It was before Christmas or before whatever.

Lex Fridman 7:21 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 7:21 And, and, um, New Year's, whatever. And so I said, "Why?" (laughs) And he said, "Because they remind people, certain people, of what they don't have."

Lex Fridman 7:34 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 7:35 "That y- other people, uh, enjoy the holidays because of what they have. Family, you know, whatever. And it reminds them that mine is that."

Lex Fridman 7:46 That's pretty profound.

Teddy Atlas 7:47 Yeah. And then, and then, and I don't remember because he didn't use the word suicide, but I u- I got it. Like, he, he basically... I forget how he said it, but, like, I just got it. I don't know how I got... Osmosis? I don't know, but-

Lex Fridman 8:00 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 8:00 ... I just got it, like, so they don't hurt themselves.

Lex Fridman 8:02 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 8:02 That, that's what came across.

Lex Fridman 8:03 In every way.

Teddy Atlas 8:04 I don't think he ever articulated that or ever verbalized that, but yeah, they don't hurt themselves. So, and, well, how, how does that work? Well, it just basically... They're gonna be around people. (laughs) They're not gonna be alone. They're gonna be around people, they're gonna get fed, they're gonna be warm. Right?

Lex Fridman 8:20 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 8:20 And it's gonna be for three days, two, three days, whatever. And it's, basically it's, it's a bridge. So, and the f- the funny thing, as a 10-year-old, I, I wanted to... I want to be connected to them.

Lex Fridman 8:33 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 8:33 So I've, I've enlisted myself in a job. When, when, when... (laughs) He used to drop them off. He, he would take them and get them in, right?

Lex Fridman 8:42 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 8:43 And, um, and then the thing that I know... Again, he didn't say nothing, but I... You notice things.

Lex Fridman 8:50 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 8:51 And if you care enough. You don't, you don't notice nothing if you don't care. But if you care, if it's important, you notice. And this guy was important to me. I just was... I didn't know what a hero was. No clue. I loved Mickey Mantle, I loved Willie Mays, I loved, uh, I, I loved Muhammad Ali.

Lex Fridman 9:09 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 9:10 I, I, I never ever connected them in my mind as heroes. Never. My father, I, I didn't connect it that way, but he w- he-

Lex Fridman 9:21 Looking back now, you think so.

Teddy Atlas 9:21 Looking back, he was, he was my first connection to a hero.

Lex Fridman 9:25 Did the two of you ever talk about how much you love each other? The word love?

Teddy Atlas 9:29 The one thing, one thing that was (laughs) , uh, not allowed.

Lex Fridman 9:33 Okay.

Teddy Atlas 9:33 The, the greatest memory I have of my father showing me love-

Lex Fridman 9:36 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 9:36 ... was, we were down in Florida at an airport, and, and, um, we were... I was born in Miami, don't ask where I was passing through.

Lex Fridman 9:45 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 9:45 And, uh, (laughs) the rest of my family was born in New York state now.

Lex Fridman 9:48 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 9:48 And so, I was supposed to go back with him, right? And I wanted to stay with my mother for whatever reason. And so, he, you know, he, of course, conceded to it, and he's, he's, "Okay," you know, whatever, and very quiet, very... And this is a man who never showed emotion to anyone.

Lex Fridman 10:09 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 10:09 I mean, for the most... You know, really.

Lex Fridman 10:11 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 10:12 All of a sudden, he just turned and kissed me on the forehead and left. And I was, I was like, "That's different."

Lex Fridman 10:23 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 10:25 It's just-

Lex Fridman 10:25 You still remember that, huh?

Teddy Atlas 10:26 Yeah. Like, that's weird.

Lex Fridman 10:28 You lost him 30 years ago. How, how did that change you?

Teddy Atlas 10:39 It made me realize that some of the deals I used to make with God, um, weren't realistic. When I was a kid, I used to make deals with God, "Let me die before my father." And then, you know, you get older, you have kids, you're blessed. Why did you make that deal? You know what I mean? Like...

Lex Fridman 11:05 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 11:05 (laughs) Thank you for not taking me up on it.

Lex Fridman 11:07 Yeah. (laughs) Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 11:08 Thanks.

Lex Fridman 11:09 Yeah. (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 11:12 (laughs) You know?

Lex Fridman 11:13 Ah, yeah. You miss him?

Teddy Atlas 11:15 I miss him in s- moments when I'd like to know what to do. And, um, you know, I, I remember when I would drive with him on our house calls, he didn't listen to music. (laughs) Uh, well, he was a guy, he read books till his... When he got older-

Lex Fridman 11:34 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 11:34 ... he read books till, uh, blood vessels broke in his eyes. Eh, he only read non-fiction books. Science, he loved science. Um, wars.

Lex Fridman 11:46 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 11:46 Um, generals. I mean, I cheated on a couple of, uh, book reports because of him because I didn't do the reading of the book the night before. I had a freaking, uh, book report to put in, Dad. I got a book report to do on, uh, Stal- the War of Stalingrad.

Lex Fridman 12:01 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 12:01 Really, the War of Stalingrad. And who the freak could-

Lex Fridman 12:06 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 12:06 ... tell you where you get an A? I got an A.

Lex Fridman 12:09 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 12:09 He, I just wrote what he told me.... told me generals, he told me times, he told me strategy. He told me about the winter that came and destroyed the Germans.

Lex Fridman 12:17 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 12:18 And, and the, and the Soviets were tougher than-

Lex Fridman 12:20 You got an A.

Teddy Atlas 12:20 ... and the Sov- Soviets were tougher than the Germans. And, you know, the Germans picked on the wrong opponent.

Lex Fridman 12:26 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 12:26 I was already in the boxing business.

Lex Fridman 12:28 (laughs) Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 12:28 I didn't even know it.

Lex Fridman 12:29 (laughs) Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 12:30 I didn't even know it.

Lex Fridman 12:31 (laughs) Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 12:31 Matchmaking, very important.

Lex Fridman 12:33 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 12:33 They, they, they mismatched. They did, they made a mistake with the... Picking the opponent. And so when we would be driving in the car, my father would be in a trance. And Dad, he wasn't ignoring me-

Lex Fridman 12:50 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 12:50 ... at all. He was just with his thoughts.

Lex Fridman 12:53 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 12:54 He was, he was wherever. He wasn't even hearing the radio no more.

Lex Fridman 12:59 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 12:59 I always wondered where he was. I did. So I asked him one day. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 13:02 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 13:03 And just so we're driving, I said, "I wanna know." So I said, "Dad, what do you think when you're basically in this place? That I know you're somewhere-"

Lex Fridman 13:12 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 13:13 "... what, what are you, what are you... Where are you? What are you seeing?" I actually said, "What do you see?" And he said to me, "I see what could be. I see what could be."

Lex Fridman 13:28 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 13:28 And I'm like, "Oh, wow.

Teddy Atlas 13:31 Wow."

Lex Fridman 13:32 I gotta ask you, when did you discover boxing? What... When did you first fall in love with boxing?

Teddy Atlas 13:39 When it saved me.

Lex Fridman 13:41 How did it save you?

Teddy Atlas 13:43 I, I was, I was a stupid, violent kid that was angry, not exactly (laughs) knowing why he was angry. Uh, I'd fit in real good in today's society because there's a lot of angry kids out there that I don't think they know why they're angry. I was, I was just out there getting in fights. And, um, I got this stupid thing from that.

Lex Fridman 14:05 Can you tell the story of how you got that?

Teddy Atlas 14:07 I was just running around doing stupid things, bad things. I hurt people, some people physically, but I hurt, I hurt my f- my f- my family. You know, that's BS, uh, you only hurt yourself, you know. That, that's a good way of, you know, alibiing it, um, you know, just, but it, if... At some point the truth usually finds its way. I'd like it to look like I was just hurting myself, but it wasn't, obviously. So, uh, I was just out on the streets with kids that didn't grow up in the neighborhood I grew up. I grew up in a neighborhood where our father was a doctor. And, um, I walked down the street. The funny thing was down, down the hill was a very tough neighborhood called Stapleton. And most of the people down there on the corners wished that they could get up the hill, and I, I wished I could get down the hill. So I went down the hill, and I hung out with all these friends that became lifelong friends. And, uh, I, um, I gravitated to that because I, I figured out later a little bit, but, you know, I wanted family.

Lex Fridman 15:17 Mm.

Teddy Atlas 15:18 We were a disjointed family. We were, you know... My father was a doctor. He didn't have time for nothing but being a doctor, you know. Uh, I think when you're great at something, you sacrifice something too, you know, when you're really great at something.

Lex Fridman 15:31 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 15:31 So great that maybe God made you great, and, and you're too great for your own good. And, and I don't know, it took me to these stupid dangerous places.

Lex Fridman 15:42 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 15:42 Dangerous for me, but dangerous for other people too, because I got to the point where I was doing robberies on the street. I was, I was fighting everybody, and, and you know what the most dangerous part about it was? And I came to this realization on my own. I'm all by myself, I, I figured it out. Um, I was really as danger- you know, these kids from the projects, some of them, they got nothing.

Lex Fridman 16:03 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 16:03 You... First of all, I learned you don't have to be poor to be poor. You don't have to be deprived of certain things to be deprived. And, or, because you, at least to think you're deprived. And I was poor in a way that I didn't have the only thing I wanted to have, him.

Lex Fridman 16:27 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 16:28 So here I, uh, uh, uh, here I am where I'm out there doing these things, and what made me more... I was more dangerous than some of these psychopaths. Well, I was a psychopath too, I guess, the way I was behaving. But some of these psychopaths that really had nothing-

Lex Fridman 16:45 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 16:46 ... um, you know, really would, you know, they obviously would kill you. I, I was da-dangerous in the, almost in the same way, but for a different reason. I know it's ridiculous what I'm about to tell you, but I figured it out, uh, 'cause I felt it. I thought I was on a righteous path. I thought I had a right-

Lex Fridman 17:06 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 17:06 (laughs) To, because it was gonna get me my father back. Why? Why? I mean, you, you know, you're a scientist, you couldn't figure this one out. Because all the people that had him were injured people, fractured people-

Lex Fridman 17:23 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 17:23 ... screwed up people (laughs) in some ways.

Lex Fridman 17:25 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 17:25 But, but hurt, damaged people. So if I get damaged, I'll get him. So I was on a crusade, really, a righteous crusade, where I thought it was okay. I had permission, I had permission to do these terrible things, quite frankly, and to fight everyone and do... I, I did. And then it, it came almost to a crash of doing all that, you know, winding up in Rikers Island like an idiot, not understanding the damage I did to this poor man that, you know, he, um, he was a great doctor, and, and he's gotta see his son and, uh, hear about... You know what I mean? Like, God.... I, I was out on that day, you know, with, with the guys that I grew up with now, you know, the guys from the projects, from the... As I described. And I was with one of them who, he- he's dead now. So I was, I was with him and we were, we- we were in a neighborhood, the neighborhood we grew up, that- that I hung out in, in, and they... And he grew up in, Billy. He came from the, from the projects. And we got into a thing where we cut... Somebody cuts us off, we cut them off, you know, jumped out to fight. And, um, you know, it turned out there's like five or six of them and two of us, and, um, you know, we fought, you know, right on the side right there. Only about a block from where I used to hang out. And, um, maybe a block and a half. And right in front of like a Spanish bodega. And, uh, it- it really does happen in slow motion. I actually saw the guy. I was fighting the guys that- that I had to fight, and then all of a sudden, I was able to get one guy out of the way a little bit, and, um, I really... I noticed the guy go into his pocket.

Lex Fridman 19:26 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 19:26 And, um, I knew why he was going in his pocket, you know? And when he came out of his pocket, I knew what it was right away. It was weird because, uh, in the neighborhood guys used to hang out, they would, they went to this... You know, they get into fads like right on the streets, and they went to, at that time, they went to this cheap knife but it was... They thought it was... Well, we thought it was cool. Uh, it was a 007. And, and, um, and the cool thing or whatever, uh, was that you could flick it. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 19:57 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 19:57 You could learn. And I learned how to flick, you know, but I never carried a knife. But- but when my friends would have it, I would just f- you learn how to... You could flick it open. Not a switchblade, but you'll flick it with your wrist. And I was like, "Here I am in the middle of this freaking fight, and all of a sudden, oh, it's a 007," you know?

Lex Fridman 20:14 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 20:14 And, (laughs) and so I'm like, "I..." You gotta make a decision, you know? And I got a split s... I can either not do nothing, which wasn't... didn't seem like a great, you know, uh, a great option. Um, (laughs) I couldn't run away.

Lex Fridman 20:36 Why not?

Teddy Atlas 20:39 'Cause you gotta live with yourself afterwards and, and-

Lex Fridman 20:42 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 20:42 And that's more difficult to live with than whatever it is at that second, because that don't go away.

Lex Fridman 20:47 You couldn't live with yourself-

Teddy Atlas 20:48 It just-

Lex Fridman 20:48 ... running away?

Teddy Atlas 20:49 It just don't go away.

Lex Fridman 20:50 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 20:50 That thing... Uh, uh, nothing, nothing to do with being brave.

Lex Fridman 20:53 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 20:54 It has nothing to do with being brave, uh, really. It- it's got to do with just common sense in life that, uh, for- for me, uh, it... Whatever you're dealing with, it's over, it's done. Like, like, okay, deal with it.

Lex Fridman 21:07 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 21:07 Good or bad, whatever. But you- you do that, you know, that other thing-

Lex Fridman 21:12 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 21:13 ... you're- you're gone. Um, you, you... That never, that never ends. This thing ends. And it-

Lex Fridman 21:19 Memory of you being a-

Teddy Atlas 21:21 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 21:21 ... let's say, a coward in that moment, that never ends.

Teddy Atlas 21:24 The only thing I had at that point in my life- (laughs)

Lex Fridman 21:27 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 21:27 ... in my stupid mind was a reputation.

Lex Fridman 21:31 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 21:32 That I would do, stand up to certain things, that... Uh, that was like... And that, for me, was, was worth something, whatever, because I didn't feel any worth to anything else.

Lex Fridman 21:44 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 21:44 That was the only thing I felt a connection of worth to, so...

Lex Fridman 21:47 So stood your ground and you got cut?

Teddy Atlas 21:48 So I- I'd say, no, I made a decision.

Lex Fridman 21:50 Yes.

Teddy Atlas 21:50 I stood my ground but I- I actually... Things do slow down. They do.

Lex Fridman 21:55 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 21:55 And I actually said, "It's a 007. He's gonna flick it." You know, I didn't say that. But he's gonna flick it, I get a split second either, like I said, either I do nothing, whatever-

Lex Fridman 22:05 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 22:05 ... or I get to him before he gets it flicked.

Lex Fridman 22:08 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 22:08 I went to get to it before he got it flicked, and, and I, and I... Just as I got close to him, I- I did him a favor. I, I- I walked right into a counterpunch. (laughs) Because I- I- I cooperated with him. I went right to him. And- and just as I did, he- he- he wa- he practiced more than I did-

Lex Fridman 22:31 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 22:31 ... with the 007-

Lex Fridman 22:32 Yes.

Teddy Atlas 22:32 ... apparently. Because he was like, whomp, whomp, whomp, whomp. And, and... Anyway.

Lex Fridman 22:41 What did you think? What did you think then happened? That was all slow motion. Did you think you might die?

Teddy Atlas 22:49 Yeah. Well, not immediately. (laughs) Took me a minute. I'm a slow learner. (laughs) I put my hand up, right? Wouldn't you?

Lex Fridman 22:58 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 22:58 I guess so.

Lex Fridman 22:59 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 22:59 And it went into my face.

Lex Fridman 23:01 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 23:01 And that was it. It was gooey.

Lex Fridman 23:03 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 23:03 It was warm-

Lex Fridman 23:05 Okay.

Teddy Atlas 23:05 ... and gooey, and I was like, "I don't know... I- I don't know what this means but I don't wanna know."

Lex Fridman 23:12 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 23:12 "But I think I know." And- and- and, um-

Lex Fridman 23:21 Did you think about your dad in that moment?

Teddy Atlas 23:24 No, you know when I thought about him was, um, you don't know who anyone is until they're tested. And, um, I learned that 'cause he used to tell me, but I learned it. Uh, he said, "You..." I remember one time, Cus... I was a 17, 18-year-old kid up there and, you know, thought I was whatever I thought I was. (laughs) And he said, "You got a lot of friends?" (laughs) And, um, I said, "Yeah," 'cause, you know, I was on the street hanging out with a hundred kids at night sometimes on the street corner, so I was like, I didn't know too many people that hung out with a hundred kids on the street, (laughs) on the corner, on a Friday, Saturday night. And, um, I was like, "Yeah, I got a lot of friends." He goes, "Really?" "Yeah, really." He said, um, "How about if I told you you might not have any? Most likely you don't have any." And he goes, "Well, uh..." And then he just started this thing. (laughs) He said, "Everyone's gonna be tested. You-"... me, everyone. He goes, "You don't know about nobody till they're tested." He goes, "You know nothing." He goes, "You know nothing until you know. Until something happens to test if they were really a friend." And then he told me this story about a guy. A guy came to him, and he was upset. "What are you upset about?" He goes, "I'm upset because I, I, uh, I just, uh, I just lost a friend. Uh, uh, you know, after 20 years of friendship, we're not friends no more." So the coach looks at him and he goes, "Let me ask you a question. What, what made you think you were ever friends with him?"

Lex Fridman 25:02 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 25:02 Now the guy gets insulted. The guy goes, "Did you hear me?" He goes, "I, I just told you, 20 years I've been friends with this guy. Why would you say that to me?" He said, "Well, uh, I'll say it again. What makes you think he was your friend?" He goes, "Whatever happened in the 20 years, other than chasing girls..." (laughs) This guy figured that one out fast. "Chasing girls and drinking together, um, and whatever else you're doing out on the street, whatever gave you the inclination that he was a friend?"

Lex Fridman 25:37 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 25:38 He goes, "Whatever... When did he risk himself to be your friend?"

Lex Fridman 25:42 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 25:42 "When was it dangerous to be your friend? W- when was it..."

Lex Fridman 25:45 When was the friendship tested?

Teddy Atlas 25:45 "... uncomfortable to be your friend?" And you know what the guy said? You can figure it out. You're a scientist. He said... (laughs)

Lex Fridman 25:55 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 25:56 He said, "Today."

Lex Fridman 25:59 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 26:00 And, and, and today came from me. And today, today, today, today kept coming for me. Today.

Lex Fridman 26:09 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 26:09 And, and that day my friend Billy had turned out while I was fighting these, whatever, five, six guys. And where was Billy? He was on the roof.

Lex Fridman 26:19 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 26:20 He was on the roof. He was on the roof. He was my best friend. And, um, so anyway, they take me to the hospital. And here's the thing with my father. But one thing Billy did do for me when he got off the roof, thank God, he did, he, he dragged me, dragged me into this bodega, laid me on the floor, and started putting towels. All right? And the towels, I vaguely remember this, they filled up with blood.

Lex Fridman 26:53 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 26:54 I mean, completely, like, drenched. Like, like you put them under a shower. And, and, um, I heard the bodega owner screaming. Screaming, you know? Like, "Ah!" You know, whatever. And everyone's screaming and there's chaos. And I'm like, I don't know, I'm, I'm calm. Weird. I'm like real calm. And, um, I'm just in this place, everything's calm. (laughs) And all of a sudden, I hear Billy, he's screaming, "Call the co- uh, call the ambulance. Call the am-" You know. And nobody's doing nothing. Everyone's frozen.

Lex Fridman 27:36 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 27:36 I'm starting to understand already, people get frozen in situations. People... The fear, fear, fear, fear, fear. It just paralyzes people. And, um, and I was going into a fear business.

Lex Fridman 27:53 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 27:53 I was learning. I was lear- I was getting a, a learning, early PhD. (laughs) And, and he-

Lex Fridman 27:58 (laughs) A student in fear. Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 27:59 Yeah. And all of a sudden, genius, Billy a genius, really. Street kid.

Lex Fridman 28:06 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 28:06 He jumps up on the freaking counter, jumps over the counter, grabs the phone, calls 911, says, "A cop's been shot."

Lex Fridman 28:14 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 28:15 And forget about it.

Lex Fridman 28:16 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 28:17 That was crazy. All I remember after that, I'll, I'll tell you the couple things I remember. Lights, being put onto a stretcher. Bounced around, you know? Rushed. I felt everyone's anxiety, except mine. I had none. But I felt everyone's anxiety, everyone's fear. Like, it was all around me. It was like, "Oh, this is interesting. This is kind of..." (laughs) I know that's stupid, but like, "Well, this is interesting."

Lex Fridman 28:45 Wow, you really have an eye for fear. That's fascinating. You were really studying it.

Teddy Atlas 28:49 And then they put... Well, they, I had no choice. I, I got introduced in a crash course. And they, they put me in ambulance, and this is what I remember, to your point. I'm sorry I took so long to get to it. I am. Although I'll probably do it again before this conversation's over. But I-

Lex Fridman 29:05 It's all about the journey.

Teddy Atlas 29:06 Yeah. Uh, we'll get there. We'll get there, pops. Um, so I, I hear the cops say, "We, I, we might lose him." And I'm like laughing to myself. Uh, I'm not laughing because I'm not... Again, I'm not John Wayne. John Wayne would have laughed. But I'm like, (laughs) "Lose? You guys are stupid." You know, I didn't say that. But I'm like, "Lose me? I, my father's the greatest doctor in the freaking world."

Lex Fridman 29:34 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 29:35 "There's nothing to worry about."

Lex Fridman 29:36 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 29:36 "You people are all, you people are all uptight and whacked out here with, with fear (laughs) and, and there's nothing to worry about. Dr. Atlas is my father." So anyway, so they're, they're, they're taking me to the... And they said, "We don't have time." I hear... A couple things I remember. "Don't have time. Take him to..." And we, they take me to US Public Health Hospital, Marine Hospital it was called at the time, but US Public Health. And it's in Stapleton, so it's close. Thank God. So they're taking me and I hear them on the radio, you know, b- saying this stuff about we gotta, we gotta move, we gotta move. And, um, I start talking. And they're telling me, "Don't talk." (laughs) But I like to talk a lot, you know?

Lex Fridman 30:24 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 30:25 And I'm... So (laughs) I'm... Again, fear. There's no fear when the fear's been removed.It's the only time you're really free in life. And I know that sounds absurd, but really, it is. It's the only time you're really free in life. I was-

Lex Fridman 30:45 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 30:45 ... but when you're-

Lex Fridman 30:46 Close to death?

Teddy Atlas 30:47 ... de- when you're devoid of w- of, of things that, that normally hold you back, that normally influence you in ways that, that, you know, that are, are not of the influence that, uh, always positive influence, where you're, where you're in a pure place, where you're, you're in a purely free place from all inhibitions, from fear, from anxiety, from, from joy. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 31:12 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 31:12 Joy can screw you up. A- and you're free from all these things, and I'm in this place, just for a little-

Lex Fridman 31:17 In the back of an ambulance, you're free.

Teddy Atlas 31:19 I'm... Yeah, I'm, I'm like...

Lex Fridman 31:21 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 31:21 I said, "Just get me to Dr. Atlas," and they say, "We don't have time. No, no, no, no, no, you don't..." (laughs) "You have to get Dr. Atlas. You have to get him." This was the... Damn it, this was the... You know what I mean? I finally freaking hit the number, and I'm not getting paid. And then all of a sudden, I'm out.

Lex Fridman 31:39 How many stitches did they-

Teddy Atlas 31:40 They... Well, I think it was 400, 200 inside, 200 outside it, or whatever it was.

Lex Fridman 31:45 It's a lot.

Teddy Atlas 31:45 Hey, look, after, after, after 50, it, uh, uh, the number doesn't matter no more, right, or whatever, 60, 70, 80, 90, whatever. You know? So I was fortunate. I was fortunate. And of course, they... I was fortunate, they told me afterwards they'd missed my jugular literally by, like, like, a centimeter.

Lex Fridman 32:04 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 32:04 I mean, whatever. And, um, so then, um, then we wouldn't be having this conversation, obviously.

Lex Fridman 32:10 Well, I'm glad you made it.

Teddy Atlas 32:11 Yeah, I-

Lex Fridman 32:11 But that's another thing.

Teddy Atlas 32:12 ... I'm kinda glad too. And, and they just missed my eye, which thank God. It's bad enough I have a scar matching me with a patch. I mean, t- s- I mean, it's enough that I got this freaking thing, and, um... And look, it goes all the way, you know what I mean? It's... You know, it's, it's pretty long. And, um... I don't know, I was out, and then somehow I sensed, like, they had the curtain closed, you know? And, uh, it's amazing how vivid this is. And the curtain's closed, and I see a shadow. I, I felt a presence, (laughs) I did. And I felt him. He's a f- oh, he's a powerful guy. And I felt him, and I just see, like, a shadow, you know? And all of a sudden, uh, the, the curtain gets pushed back. And I can't really see, it's dark, and I'm, you know, out of it, but not completely out of it. And, um, pushes the curtain back, comes in. And his hands, even though it's all bandaged, you know, whatever. But his hand surveys... It felt safe. And, um, it felt, it felt warm and safe. I was happy.

Lex Fridman 33:35 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 33:36 And, um, he got there, you know?

Lex Fridman 33:37 Did he say something?

Teddy Atlas 33:38 Yeah. Yeah. (laughs) Remember, I gave you a little bit of introduction to my father, right?

Lex Fridman 33:42 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 33:43 You know him now a little bit, right?

Lex Fridman 33:44 Yeah, yeah.

Teddy Atlas 33:45 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 33:46 What'd he say about the job?

Teddy Atlas 33:46 He said... He just said, this is what he said. I remember to this day what he said.

Lex Fridman 33:49 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 33:50 That, that I do remember. I don't know if it was six or five people, but this I do remember.

Lex Fridman 33:54 (laughs) Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 33:56 He said, "They did a good job. You're gonna have a scar the rest of your life." And he left.

Lex Fridman 34:04 (laughs) Oh, man. "They did a good job."

Lex Fridman 34:10 You mentioned Cus, Cus D'Amato, legendary trainer, and you also mentioned, it turned out he really cared about you. In the book, you write about a testimony he gave. I was hoping I could read it 'cause it speaks to your character. It speaks to his. It's just powerful. The testimony goes, "Your Honor, I realize you might not know much about me, but I've spent my whole life developing young men. As a boxing manager, I trained two world champions, heavyweight champion Floyd Patterson and light heavyweight champion Jose Torres. I've also helped a lot of other young boys straighten out their lives and build character. I know things about Teddy Atlas this court doesn't know, things you won't find on his arrest record. This boy has character. He has loyalty. He'll hurt himself before he'll let down a friend. These qualities are rare, and they shouldn't be lost. He's made mistakes. We've all made mistakes, but I've come to know this boy, and if we lose him, we'll be losing someone who could help a lot of people. Please don't take this young boy's future away. He could be someone special. Let's not lose him, please." Those are powerful words from a powerful man. Uh, what have you learned about life from, from, uh, Mr. Cus D'Amato?

Teddy Atlas 35:41 He gave me a quote, and he drilled it into my head. I became his guy, you know? He loved me. I loved him. He, he said to me, "Teddy, no matter what a man says, (laughs) it's what he does in the end that he intended to do all along." That's what I learned from Cus. (sighs) Rest of it is BS. And, um... A lot of people, um, say things. You just have to give them a minute to f- let them show you eventually what they really meant by it. I also learned from him that, uh... Everyone's afraid.Cus has a way of saying, another great saying, you'll get a kick out this. Uh, "Anyone who's in a situation where fear should be prevalent, where sh- fear is actually necessary to survive the situation, anyone who says that they're not afraid, they're one of two things. They're either a liar or they should go to a doctor, find out what the freak's wrong with them." He was right about that. You know, we live in a, a taboo society where that word, to a certain extent, is taboo because it invokes weakness. You know? We, we, uh, we are just layers of what we saw and learned since we were kids. We all are. We're products of those layers. I learned that on my own. Um, through some help. At the end of the day, um, you know, fear, people will find their way of avoiding that term. So they use the word anxiety, they use the word, you know, butterflies, apprehension. You know? There are a million different, right, words. I find all those other words to be cousins of fear. And, and fear, fear causes a lot of things in life. It, it, it causes a lot of problems. Uh, and, and it also solves a lot of problems. Without it, uh, we couldn't be great, if we are great. If we ever have a chance to be great. Um, or at least to aspire to be great.

Lex Fridman 38:22 Ho- how does fear connect to greatness? That's a, that's a profound statement. Without fear, we wouldn't be able to be great.

Teddy Atlas 38:32 Yeah, you couldn't be great without fear, because fear allows you to be brave. (laughs) The most important word for me, in this whole, you know, conversation right, neighborhood, would be selfishness. Uh, it allows you to be, for a moment, less selfish. One of the things I learned, I guess partly on my own, everyone thinks my greatest teacher was Cus. He was a great teacher, m- mentor. My greatest teacher was my father. The one who never talked. And, um, I realized, um, one of the things to be better, towards great, um, is if you can be... Submit less than we submit. See, one of the things that I'm afraid of, one of the things I was always quitting. In my business, it's kind of not a good thing.

Lex Fridman 39:27 Mm-hmm. Every business, I think. Yours, (laughs) yours is just more, uh, clear.

Teddy Atlas 39:35 Yeah. It, it, it hurts more. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 39:39 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 39:39 And...

Lex Fridman 39:39 True.

Teddy Atlas 39:41 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 39:41 Tru- (laughs) in the moment, at least.

Teddy Atlas 39:42 Yeah, in the moment. Uh, you're right, 100%, because some things hurt for a long time afterwards. And, um, something like regret. Regret is the worst thing in the world because it's a solitary sentence.

Lex Fridman 39:56 A solitary...

Teddy Atlas 39:56 And, and man oh man.

Lex Fridman 39:58 (laughs) That's a powerful phrase. Regret is a solitary sentence.

Teddy Atlas 40:02 So-

Lex Fridman 40:02 Oh boy.

Teddy Atlas 40:03 ... I-

Lex Fridman 40:03 You're full of good lines.

Teddy Atlas 40:05 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 40:06 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 40:06 You know, it, it, it wasn't easy to, uh, to, (laughs) to a- accumulate them.

Lex Fridman 40:14 Yeah. Hard road.

Teddy Atlas 40:15 It, it was, it was a little bit hurtful. But, so, uh, s- submit less, because we submit every day. And if we can get to a place where we submit or compromise ourselves less, uh, we'll, we'll get to a better place.

Lex Fridman 40:29 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 40:30 You know? Again, one of the, one of the words for me that attaches to things that give you... That wind up hurting you in life, and have hurt me in life, uh, one of those boogeymen words, is the word of convenience. That's attached to everything, you know? Pe- people, people disappoint you, not because they want to disappoint you-

Lex Fridman 40:55 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 40:55 ... or let you down or betray you because they want to betray you. They do it because it's more convenient to do.

Lex Fridman 41:03 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 41:03 Than, than the other thing. An old man once told me, he said to me... I was trying to, I was trying to rationalize something. I was trying to make someone an excuse for something. I was trying to make myself better than I was. I was trying to say it was okay. (laughs) And, and he just looked at me and he, he, he liked me. And he said, "Teddy, there ain't no such thing as being a little pregnant." I was like, "Yeah." He goes, "Either you're pregnant or you're not pregnant. Either you're real or you're not real. Either you're, you know, truthful or you're not truthful. Either you're tough or you're not tough. Either you're, ei- ei- either you're, you know, committed or you're not committed. Ei- either you're in or you're out."

Lex Fridman 41:56 That applies to a lot of things.

Teddy Atlas 41:57 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 41:58 Including loyalty.

Teddy Atlas 41:59 Oh, that's quite a statement. But the life blood of humanity for me is loyalty. Um, it's, it's what goes through the veins of, uh, you know, everything has to have some veins in some form. And if humanity has veins, what runs through the veins of humanity instead of blood to keep it alive is loyalty. Without loyalty-

Lex Fridman 42:19 Powerful words.

Teddy Atlas 42:20 ... without loyalty, we're dead. We're freaking walk... We're, we're vessels. I never understood what a ghost ship was. You know what? As I got older, I know what a ghost ship is. It's people.

Lex Fridman 42:29 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 42:29 It's people that are empty.

Lex Fridman 42:31 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 42:31 They got no loyalty. Therefore, they got no humanity. Therefore, they got nothing. Therefore, freak them. Freak them. Because... And, and, and you know why they don't have loyalty? Convenience. And you know why?... because it takes, it's hard to be loyal. It's actually hard.

Lex Fridman 42:54 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 42:54 I'll be a son of a gun. Yeah. Oh, you're talking about how I... Yeah, it sounds great. Give it to me. Give it to me. Paint me with it. Yeah, i- it's great. Yeah, I'm loyal. I'm... Yeah, I'm g- I'm... Yeah, this is good. I'm ready. I'm on that team.

Lex Fridman 43:07 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 43:07 I'm ready. Put me in, coach.

Lex Fridman 43:08 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 43:08 I'm ready. Okay, now you have to, uh, you're gonna have to get hurt here. What do you mean get hurt? Oh, well, it's gonna be painful. I mean, h- hey, to be loyal, you know, you're, you're gonna be in danger because the person that you committed your loyalty to for a reason, because obviously he did something in your life, whatever, whatever, um, that i- i- i- e- you're actually gonna get hurt to be loyal to him. You're actually gonna... Hold on a minute. Wait. Hold on a minute, coach. Um, t- uh, hold on. C- call timeout here. Um, (laughs) let me, let me think about this, coach. I'm, I'm, I might need more, more practice. I'm not ready for the game. I'm not ready to go in the game yet. Give me a little more practice, coach. And i- it hurts to be loyal. It fricking hurts. But without loyalty, w- we're s- we're ghost ships. We got no strength. We got nothing.

Lex Fridman 44:02 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 44:02 We got nothing. We c- we got, we got nothing.

Lex Fridman 44:05 I agree with you in a deep fundamental sense. But there's, uh, pain that comes with that. I have to ask you to, uh, introspect on this part of your life because of your value for loyalty.

Lex Fridman 44:21 Uh, as people know, you and Cus D'Amato, uh, trained young Mike Tyson. And the interaction there, uh, between the three of you led to the three of you parting ways. Giving your value for loyalty, can you tell the full story of, uh, what led up to this and maybe the pain you felt from that?

Teddy Atlas 44:58 Uh, it was the f- I guess it was the second time in my life I felt betrayed. Um, the first time was when I, um, yeah, I was whatever, young, 17, and I got arrested. I was with all these older guys, tough guys, whatever, and, um... Supposedly. And, uh, the detective separated us. That's what they do. And, um, you know, they, they asked me who did whatever, whose gun, this, that, you know, all that, the particulars of obviously what we did. And, you know, i- it was me. And, um, they said, "You sure? You don't wanna change that? You don't want... Because your friends changed it." And, and these cops, they were nasty, but they were cops. They were... Either way, uh, you know, you're gonna wind up in Rikers with... And they're gonna be doing this to you.

Lex Fridman 45:55 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 45:55 And I won't even say the things because then, uh, uh, why say them, you know? Figure it out. But, uh, you know, they're trying to get what they're trying to get, and, you know, "You wanna change it?" And, um, "No." And, but I felt very betrayed, you know?

Lex Fridman 46:12 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 46:13 And, um, especially when I was standing in the, in the cell (laughs) in Rikers looking at the airplanes leave LaGuardia Airport-

Lex Fridman 46:21 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 46:22 ... and then hoping I was on one. Well, you know, I was making like a deal with God that, "Let me be on one of those planes and let it crash. I- I'll take a shot."

Lex Fridman 46:31 Was part of you proud that you didn't give up your friends?

Teddy Atlas 46:34 No, because I didn't understand what proud was. I didn't understand nothing. I just understood that, um-

Lex Fridman 46:40 Rules are rules. You're just loyal, and that's it.

Teddy Atlas 46:43 I didn't even know there was an option. (laughs) I d- I didn't think there... I know the cop said you could do this, but that... There was no option. My father never had an option. But, uh, the betrayal, the private betrayal was like... And so when Cus... (laughs) We were partners. Me and Cus.

Lex Fridman 47:06 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 47:07 Cus was retired. This stupid kid goes up there, and all of a sudden I start training fighters. (laughs) First, I wanted gloves. Cus put me into gloves. I wanted gloves, then I had injury, whatever. But bottom line is, I still want to fight. I want to turn pro. I want to fight. That was the plan. And, um, and Cus had a different plan. Cus, Cus was like, "You can't..." And he had us set up a little bit. Whatever. Without getting into it... Well, hey, he did me a favor.

Lex Fridman 47:34 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 47:35 And I want... I'd like to think he knew he was doing me a favor. And you know what? I do think he was. He was doing himself a little bit one, too. But it, but he was doing it for the greater cause because he believed in this thing of boxing.

Lex Fridman 47:47 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 47:47 He, he believed that it changed lives. He believed that it was worthwhile.

Lex Fridman 47:51 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 47:52 He believed that there was a power to it beyond the left hook.

Lex Fridman 47:55 The big picture of boxing-

Teddy Atlas 47:57 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 47:57 ... he believed in it.

Teddy Atlas 47:58 Yeah. He believed that to be a champion you had to be special, you had to be smart, you had to have character, you had, uh, uh, that you had to be a better person, and that you couldn't make a champion if you didn't make him a better person first-

Lex Fridman 48:10 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 48:10 ... and, and that, that this, you know, this could strengthen people. The, the sport could strengthen people in those ways. So he, he was married to it. And he, he was old, and he needed... There was no one in the gym. It was empty. And it was above a police station, which was crazy. And he needed an heir to the throne. He needed to pass it on to someone, and he saw something.And all of a sudden, he sa- he saw that my career as a boxer was less important than having me become his heir to the throne and become his trainer, his man, his guy, to continue. (laughs) That we could do a lot more for him, and for, for, for everyone. Not just for him, but for everyone. It was more like, to keep it going.

Lex Fridman 49:00 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 49:00 Like, like, it couldn't die. It couldn't die. And then Cus was afraid that it would die with him. And he committed his whole life to it. He didn't get married because of boxing. So he didn't... So he saw me as, as, you know, uh, uh, the l- the little bit of, you know, uh, the seed to plant for, for more things to grow.

Lex Fridman 49:20 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 49:20 Uh, before that plant died. And so he, all of a sudden, he says, "You can't fight." And I had people tell me that I could go somewhere else and fight.

Lex Fridman 49:30 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 49:31 And I could.

Lex Fridman 49:32 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 49:33 But I couldn't.

Lex Fridman 49:35 Right.

Teddy Atlas 49:35 Because I'd be disloyal.

Lex Fridman 49:36 Loyalty is everything.

Teddy Atlas 49:37 Yeah, so I couldn't leave Cus.

Lex Fridman 49:39 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 49:40 And he kinda knew that. And, and so, uh, you know, I couldn't leave him. And he said, "You have an ability to teach." He said, "Knowledge means nothing." Uh, he said, "See these Britannica?" He had Britanna- Britannica Encyclopedia, uh, uh, the whole set in-

Lex Fridman 49:57 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 49:57 ... in our library. He said, "You see these?" "Yeah, I see them." "All the knowledge of the world, whatever, uh, is in these." "All right." Means nothing if you don't have somebody to convey it to people. Otherwise, it just sits on a bookshelf and looks good. He goes, "You have the ability to convey knowledge to people. You're a teacher. You were born to be a teacher. You'd lessen yourself by only being a champion fighter-"

Lex Fridman 50:22 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 50:22 "... because you'd only take care of one person."

Lex Fridman 50:24 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 50:25 "You could take care of all kinds of people. And you could do this, and you could do that, and you could do this." So we go on this venture. It took a minute-

Lex Fridman 50:32 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 50:32 ... 'cause I didn't believe him at first. But finally, we... I am, I'm there, I'm training fighters. And then he, he gets me to buy in. And I w- I was a teacher. And I start teaching these kids. And there's no one in the gym, it's dead. And all of a sudden, there's 10 kids, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45. Catskill Boxing Club, which was never there. Now it's there. And I'm training fighters. I'm taking them down to South Bronx to get experience. One of his former fighters, Nelson Cuevas, down to South Bronx. I'm taking them down there to get smokers, to get fights when they're ready, after I te- I'm wearing out Dungarees. I'm getting holes in my Dungaree. I was fashionable before it was fashionable to have holes in my Dungarees.

Lex Fridman 51:18 That's-

Teddy Atlas 51:19 I could have made a lot of money with that.

Lex Fridman 51:20 Yeah. Sure.

Teddy Atlas 51:20 Because I was on my knees with these little kids, nine years old, 10 years old, s- eight years old, 10 year- 12, 13, 14, fif- all these kids. And, uh, and I'm teaching them, and I'm building a gym. And Cus only came once a week because he was semi-retired, you know? He went... And, and he's home. And when he would come once a week, he knew... He couldn't give me money, but he gave me more than money. He gave me praise.

Lex Fridman 51:43 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 51:44 Oh. And he said, "Look what Atlas is doing! He's creating champions!" And I was like, "Whoa. Yeah."

Lex Fridman 51:51 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 51:52 "Wow, I'm, uh, I'm doing good."

Lex Fridman 51:54 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 51:54 And, and, and then all of a sudden, after four years of that, because I was up there seven years, eight years. Eight years. After about three and a half, four years of that, we get a phone call that they got this kid in prison, in Tryon Prison, uh, from one of the guys that knew Cus, Matt Paranski. Uh, and, and there's a state... There's a correction officer named Bobby Stewart who used to box. And Cus had helped him out a little bit, a little bit. And, um, and they knew w- we had this gym now that was really starting to become something because we were winning tournaments and everything else. They called him and said, "I got... We got this kid, Mike Tyson. He, he's, he's 12 years old. He's 190 pounds, and he's a mess. But Bobby Stewart got involved with him, uh, you know, the, the former fighter, and he's taken a liking to him, and now, where he didn't behave at all, and he didn't listen to anyone, now he's listening because Bobby's got a carrot, and the carrot is h- he'd teach him boxing. And now, he, he's at the point now where we, we want you to take a look, you and Teddy." "All right, bring him down."

Lex Fridman 52:57 What, what did you think when you first saw Mike Tyson?

Teddy Atlas 53:00 Well, I, I wanted, I wanted to see his birth certificate. Because he... 190 pounds, 12 years old and all solid?

Lex Fridman 53:06 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 53:07 Um, you know, really? But yeah.

Lex Fridman 53:10 Just physically, just as a physical specimen.

Teddy Atlas 53:12 Yeah. And, and-

Lex Fridman 53:13 Big guy.

Teddy Atlas 53:14 Yeah, and listen, Cus was right, I was a teacher. He was right. And he was testing me even that day. He said, "What do you think?" So I said, "Well, we ain't gonna know nothing hitting the bag. Who the fuck cares about that? He knocked the bag down." Uh, uh, uh, "We gotta put him in with, um..." We got no one to put him in that weight. They didn't have anyone in that weight. "We gotta test him. Everyone's gotta be tested." And, um... So you gotta put them in. Responsibly, but let's put them in. Just responsi- but let's put them in with Bobby Stewart, former pro fighter. Had 14 pro fights. Smaller than Tyson. Uh, he was... When he was fighting, he was 175. But still, he's 28 years old, Tyson's 12. Come on. And, and he'll work with him.

Lex Fridman 53:56 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 53:57 Right? So we do, we put him in. Tyson, he recognized the moment. He understood this was an audition. This was a chance, you know. This was that TV show, Change Your Life. And he understood that if he passed the audition, he could change, possibly change his life. He wasn't sure what. How could he be sure what exactly? But it was better than what he had. And so he was on an audition. So he wanted... He innately understood what we would want to see. Ferociousness, toughness, uh, character, uh, desire, you know, and of course, ability.

Lex Fridman 54:35 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 54:35 Well, we saw the ability. Power, speed. But it was, it was unbridled. It was untaught. It was, it was raw. He didn't know really much at all, um, at all. But-... uh, we saw that. But he wanted to show more. He knew that wasn't enough. Again, innate intelligence. He, he had to show desire. He had to show toughness. And so I was being responsible. After two rounds, that's enough. Normally, I don't put a guy into boxing till maybe four months, five months, six months, eight months, 10 months. It depends what it takes to learn on the floor before it's responsible to put them in a ring to, to actually take on, uh, incoming real live shells instead of blanks.

Lex Fridman 55:19 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 55:20 And so normally, I wouldn't have him in. And I knew after today, he wouldn't be in the ring again if I trained him. I would teach him first, and then he'd get back in a few months. But for this day, it was the only way... It- it- it's kind of like I used to make this analogy and Cus loved it. I, I, he said, "What's training a fighter? What do you, what, what do you look for training a fighter, Teddy?" You know, he asked me this ridiculous question just to test me. And, and I say, "It's like going to Macy's Win-" I, oh, he loved it. I, I said it's like...

Lex Fridman 55:50 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 55:50 I said, "It's like going to Macy's Window on Christmas." He goes, "What do you mean, Macy's Window?" You know, Cus was like, boom, boom, boom. "So what do you mean, Macy's Window?" "Oh, you go to Macy's Window and they got the window with everything you want to see."

Lex Fridman 56:00 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 56:00 "Everything in there. And it looks great. All the, the, everything." "And, yeah? And then what?" "Well, then you ask what's in the warehouse, and they tell you nothing."

Lex Fridman 56:10 (laughs) Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 56:11 And, and Cus says, (hand slaps) "That's it. That's a trainer!"

Lex Fridman 56:15 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 56:15 And I wanted to see what was in the warehouse. 'Cause I saw what was in the Macy's Window. I saw the power, I saw the speed. So he goes two rounds, and he gets a bloody nose. Here's the weird thing. Not weird. Very telling. We knew what we were doing. Not bragging, but we knew what we were doing because he got a bloody nose because he got hit. After that bloody, he never got another bloody nose. You know why? He didn't get hit. 'Cause he learned.

Lex Fridman 56:41 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 56:41 He was still strong, but he was smarter now. Anyway, he goes two rounds. And I saw, and I'm being responsible because if he goes more, it's not responsible. I saw what I needed to see. I saw speed, I saw power, I saw athleticism. And I saw... I didn't believe him. I thought he was lying to me. I'm just telling you. I, I thought he was lying, trying to act tough when he wasn't really feeling tough. It didn't matter. Cus questioned me on it afterwards. "What did you see?" And when I said, he goes, (hand slaps) "Young master." You know, again, he wasn't paying me money. So he had to give me something, right? And c- and that was better than... That was currency. "Young master."

Lex Fridman 57:17 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 57:17 I'm the young master? Whoa. You know? "Young master." You know what I mean? And I, I felt like that guy Kung Fu, you know?

Lex Fridman 57:23 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 57:23 Like in the movie. Like Kung Fu. "Grasshopper, when you're ready, when you can take this out of my hand, you can leave." And-

Lex Fridman 57:29 That's powerful.

Teddy Atlas 57:30 Yeah, it was. (laughs) It worked. (laughs) Cus knew how to work me. (laughs) And he did. And, and it worked. And, and so... But you know what? I didn't mind being worked. I kind of knew I was being shuffled a little bit.

Lex Fridman 57:45 Well, you're making it sound a little bit negative, but it's also extremely positive. That's a teacher instilling wisdom into you that you carried forward and impacted a lot of people.

Teddy Atlas 57:56 Yeah. Cus got the job done, but he did it his way. And, and he did it for a lot of re- a myriad of reasons then. But at the end of the day, it was all good. And I, I just had to understand that eventually, uh, later on, but-

Lex Fridman 58:11 And you do the same. You do things your way and carry some of him in you. Some of your father in you.

Teddy Atlas 58:16 Yeah. That day, you know, that day was funny because when Cus said, "What did you see, Teddy?" With him... Well, after two rounds, I got up on the ring. I knew I was gonna train him. Obviously, we weren't gonna say no. (laughs) And he still had about four months to serve, and we were gonna work it out.

Lex Fridman 58:34 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 58:35 And when I got up on the ring apron, that's my gym. I'm the boss. You know, people later on in life called me a dictator, you know what I said? "Yeah, you're right."

Lex Fridman 58:45 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 58:45 I didn't deny. People thought, "You, you're uh... You mean I'm right?" Yeah, I'm a dictator. I'm a trainer. I'm the boss.

Lex Fridman 58:51 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 58:52 I'm in charge.

Lex Fridman 58:53 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 58:53 If I... Uh, you wouldn't be here if I wasn't.

Lex Fridman 58:55 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 58:55 What the fuck you need me for if I'm not fucking in charge, you idiot? Yeah, yeah, damn right. I'm, uh... Well, what do you think? It's a, it's a shared responsibility? No, it's my responsibility.

Lex Fridman 59:05 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 59:05 That's why you're here. Yeah, I am in charge.

Lex Fridman 59:08 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 59:09 And you shouldn't be here if you don't understand that. So I get up there and I know that I'm gonna be training him. I gotta show him who the boss is.

Lex Fridman 59:16 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 59:17 You know, I'm being really frank about this. So I get up there, say, "That's it, out."

Lex Fridman 59:22 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 59:23 "No, no!" You know, this is Tyson.

Lex Fridman 59:25 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 59:25 "No, let me go. I want to do another round. I want to do another one. I want..." "I said out. Did you hear what I said?"

Lex Fridman 59:31 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 59:32 Because I knew that, you know, he was gonna test me. He was testing me. I, I said, "I said get out."

Lex Fridman 59:37 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 59:38 And then he got out.

Lex Fridman 59:39 But were you impressed with the fact that he wouldn't keep going or no?

Teddy Atlas 59:42 Yes, and I recognized what it really was. (laughs) So Cus asked me, "What was that?"

Lex Fridman 59:47 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 59:47 Cus wanted to know what the young master saw. So Cus said, "What was that?"

Lex Fridman 59:50 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 59:51 I said, "It was, um... Uh, it was an act." He goes, "You saw that? Did he really wanna go?" I said, "No." I said, "He didn't really wanna go, but he knew that we want him to go, and he made himself ready to go in order to satisfy that, and that's just as good." And Cus said, (hand slaps) "Damn right, it's just as good. All that matters was not, w- not, not how he got there, but that he got there."

Lex Fridman 1:00:20 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 1:00:20 "That's all that matters. That he got there. That he got to the place to act like a fighter, to, to do what we want him to do, to be ready to persevere, to go beyond the comfort level."

Lex Fridman 1:00:31 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 1:00:31 "To do another round."

Lex Fridman 1:00:33 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 1:00:33 "He didn't want to. Damn right, he didn't want to. But he knew we want him to, and he knew in order to pass the test, he had to do it."

Lex Fridman 1:00:42 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 1:00:43 And he said, (hand slaps) "You're right." He goes, "Now it's gonna be your job to teach him, to make him a fighter that don't get bloody noses, that don't get hit, and will get to that place without being coerced."...to get there, to get to that place on his own, instead of using the things that he had to use to get to that place today. Those things are not going to be available. One day, when you... And listen to this, you talk about a man being prophetic or... Cus was pretty good. Uh, you talk about a man being on a job (laughs) , on money, Lex. He says... How do you think he finishes the sentence? He goes, "Because someday you, uh, because, you know, you're gonna have to make sure that he learns these things, f- because, you know, he'll, he'll be your first heavyweight champ." "Uh, what did you just say?"

Lex Fridman 1:01:36 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 1:01:36 He's 12 years old.

Lex Fridman 1:01:37 Yeah. Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 1:01:39 If... He, he, he's been arrested 30 times.

Lex Fridman 1:01:41 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 1:01:43 He's getting out of jail, out of, you know, uh, juvenile detention, try-on (laughs) . Um, i- i- i- he's a mess in a lot of ways. There's a lot of things we find out later, a lot of problems, weaknesses. So he goes, "And you have... That's part of your job. That'll be part of your job." And, but he really s- said that. He... And then, then he turned to him, he goes, "You wanna come live with us, young man? You want to be a fighter?" "Yes." Even that, Cus said to me later, "What do you think about that?" I said, "He ain't gonna be-"

Lex Fridman 1:02:14 The way he said yes.

Teddy Atlas 1:02:15 The, yeah, the way he said yes. "Yes, sir." Yeah. I... He said, "What do you think about that..." I had, uh, we're talking, I said, "He ain't gonna be that polite in a, in a little while down the road." Uh, again, he knew that that's what he felt that he needed to, to project himself as, to, to present himself as, to, to get to where you want to get to. He goes, you know... Yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:02:38 Did you see what Cus was seeing in terms of the heavyweight champion of the world?

Teddy Atlas 1:02:42 No. Again, the easiest answer would be yes. Teddy is just...

Lex Fridman 1:02:45 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 1:02:45 Teddy Allen is a genius. Wow, wow. Teddy is... Wow. Right? Uh.

Lex Fridman 1:02:49 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 1:02:49 No, no. No, no. But again, it was my job.

Lex Fridman 1:02:54 (laughs) Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 1:02:54 And I just, I... My job, it was simple, simpler than Cus's. Cus knew too much. I knew nothing. I just knew, you know, rudiments of boxing. I knew what it took to be a fighter and, and how to execute it, the steps of executing it. So I took those steps. The, the, the rest of it, you get blurred by those other things. I wasn't blurred by those other things. Uh, it was, it was just, get him in the gym, make him mentally stronger, make him face things, and teach him how to slip punches.

Lex Fridman 1:03:26 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 1:03:26 A- and, and create holes, and fill those fricking holes...

Lex Fridman 1:03:29 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 1:03:29 ...with devastating punches. This is Cus. "And what are you gonna do?" "I'm gonna teach him to fill holes and fill them with punches with bad intentions."

Lex Fridman 1:03:38 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 1:03:39 And, and that became the moniker.

Lex Fridman 1:03:41 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 1:03:42 The... And then Tyson would say that. "I'm, I'm throwing punches with bad intentions." Yes, you are. And, um, you know...

Lex Fridman 1:03:48 How do you make him mentally tougher? So that part of the job. The, you said, uh, don't get a bloody nose, but the part of the job where it makes him mentally tougher, how do you do that?

Teddy Atlas 1:03:57 Most important part of the job, to make him face things.

Lex Fridman 1:04:01 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 1:04:02 Make him face where he's lying to himself, where he's submitting. What... We start this conversation with submission.

Lex Fridman 1:04:07 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 1:04:08 Submit less.

Lex Fridman 1:04:09 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 1:04:09 Submit less. Submit less every day. Submit less. Cus only come to the gym once in a while. And if I had him sparring, he would come because that was his, that was his proj- that was the heavyweight. Now, he came, you know, put life in Cus.

Lex Fridman 1:04:22 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 1:04:22 Cus had life. He wa- he was losing a little life, but that made the light bulb bright again. It did. And it was great to see. I felt proud of that. I felt connected to that. And that's why when, when, when it all went bad and Cus took the side that... The only side he could take, the side of the next heavyweight champ of the world, but he, but he left me, his partner, the young master (laughs) And that was the second time I get betrayed. And I'm like... For a while, I thought everything Cus taught me, said to me, was a lie. I didn't want to be any part of it anymore. Until I got a little more mature and I got a little past that, where I was able to understand... I was able to understand that just because somebody that you perceived as great in every area is... You find to be weak in certain areas, doesn't mean that they can't still be what they were to you. It- it's, it's something that... It's something that can be understood or forgiven. Y- it, it's hard. It's hard to get to that place of forgive somebody in that kind of way that I felt betrayed. Because Cus told me the most important thing was loyalty. Cus told me he loved me because I was loy... Cus, Cus told people that the reason that he went to court was because I didn't give up anybody, even though it meant putting me in a risk of going to jail for 10 years. And he, and Cus felt that he admired those traits. And so I assumed that he, he would show the same traits. And he took a deal. He took a deal. He took a deal. He, he, he signed the papers that those, that those so-called friends of mine signed. You know, he, he, he took a deal to, to... Uh, you know, to, to have the future heavyweight champ, as it turned out, or, and, and to let me, you know, to let me go, to sign the deal to, to let me take, you know, take the weight.

Lex Fridman 1:06:48 For people who don't know, uh, Mike was inappropriate with a young girl and you pulled a gun on him. I don't know if there is deeper things to say about that situation.

Teddy Atlas 1:07:00 No.

Lex Fridman 1:07:01 But why do you think Cus made the decision...

1:07:05 ...to cut you off from both Mike Tyson and from Cus-Cus D'Amato. Like, to break that. When he valued loyalty so much.

Teddy Atlas 1:07:12 I served my purpose. I got him to the, where he needed to get. (laughs) Um, brought life back in the gym. If I wasn't in the gym at that particular time, Tyson never would've been in the gym. There would've been no gym to bring him to.

Lex Fridman 1:07:26 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 1:07:27 When they called up and made that phone call to bring him to the gym, there would've been no activity. There would've been no boxing program. There would've been, you know, no trainer training him 24/7, the way I was. Where Cus wasn't capable of doing that at that point in his life.

Lex Fridman 1:07:40 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 1:07:41 But then again, uh, it's not poor Teddy. (laughs) I get the benefit of a career, I get the benefit of knowledge, I get the benefit of a life, I get the benefit of learning, of, of becoming, hopefully, a better person. Um, I get the benefit of being betrayed again. Um, but-

Lex Fridman 1:07:59 Well, that's a hell of a statement right there. I don't know what the benefit of that is.

Teddy Atlas 1:08:05 You can learn to forgive weakness. You know, when you realize how, how easy it is to be weak. And, and when you realize that... Somebody asked me, "How did you get to the point where you, you could forgive?" Right? It's a pretty good question. Pretty simple, pretty basic. Pretty important, right? And I didn't, uh, I didn't understand I understood, but I did understand immediately for me. I said, "How can I not forgive somebody?" It becomes easier to learn how to forgive when you're still trying to forgive yourself. When you're still in the process of trying to forgive yourself for all your own inherent weaknesses and betrayals of people, like my father, in different ways that we forget very easily because it's handy, a- and it's a way of surviving. It's a lot easier to, to figure it out, rationalize it to, to, to, to find forgiveness when you realize that you still haven't figured out completely how to forgive yourself. I'm still trying to figure that out. And, um, so that helped me figure out how to forgive Cus. Because to figure out how to forgive me, I had to understood why I did these things. Where the, where the weaknesses came from, where the selfishness came from, where the convenience came from. That they really existed. But they didn't exist from malice. They existed from me not being prepared to understand that I could be stronger. To wanna be stronger. And then I looked at Cus. He wanted to be stronger, but he got to a point in life where he had been strong for a lot of his life.

Lex Fridman 1:10:18 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 1:10:18 He was strong with me, he was strong with a lot of things in his life. And does everyone deserve a pass in life? Where he got, he got to a place where everything was in one basket, the basket of boxing. He once told me that he never got married 'cause it would be un- it would've been selfish to a woman to have gotten married when his whole life was boxing. That he couldn't give to a kid, he couldn't give to her. He go... And, and then I thought about it, he had no money really. And Jim Jacobs and Bill Caden took care of the bills, so he didn't really need money that way. But the one, what was the payoff for that kinda life? That kind of commitment? That kind of sacrifice? Really, the, what was the payoff? The payoff was to have champions. To have a champion that would keep your name alive. You know that word legacy? Like, what does it mean? Sometimes it's, it's just a word. Sometimes it's, it's more than a word. It, it's, it's, it's a reprieve. It's a pension plan. It, it's, it's being given a pension on your way out for the rest of your life. For, for your life, wherever you're going.

Lex Fridman 1:11:38 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 1:11:38 You're going to wherever you're going for eternity. Um, it, it's, it, it's the only thing that you take with you, is what you left behind. And for Cus, it was all about leaving behind a mark, a mark that, of champion. Yeah, it was attached to ego. We all have it. Yeah, it was attached to s- some selfishness and all. But yeah, it was also attached to wanting to leave something great behind.

Lex Fridman 1:12:07 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 1:12:08 To know that you were part of it. That you existed for a reason. That, that, that you sacrificed for a reason. And all that freaking pain I brought my father, I was searching for something. Yeah, I made it into a righteous search. I made it into... I did. And I made it into, I- I- it was okay because it was righteous and I... Uh, but it still did damage. It still did damage. It still hurt people. It still betrayed my father's trust. And Cus betrayed mine. But he didn't do it maliciously. He, he did it out of, again... My father came home. This is how I'm gonna connect it. My father came home from, from work one night, 12 o'clock, and I was waiting up. And like I said, I was only nine, 10 years old. And he got mad at me. He goes, "Go to bed. What are you doing up?" I said, "I'm waiting for you. I'm waiting for you." And, um...He said, "Well, go to bed." I said, "No," I, I... "Uh, wh- what were you doing?" I said, "I was at the hospital." "You were there... Why were you there so late?" You know? (laughs) He answered me. He, he said, "There was a patient. There was a sick patient." I said, "Uh, he must be better now because you're his doctor," you know? Because my father could fix anything. And my father, nothing got in the way of the truth. Nothing. Nothing. Even blowing his son's bubble. Ma- matter-of-factly, he said to me, uh, "No, he's not gonna get better. He's gonna die." (sighs) And, um... So as a nine-year-old kid, you know, you're a kid, you're selfish. You know? Uh, not in a bad way, but, you know, you want what you... And I said, um... I said two things. First I said, "How? How? You're his doctor. How? H- uh, it can't be." And then I said, I, I just said it almost angry, "Then why were you there?" Like, "You should've been here with me."

Lex Fridman 1:14:22 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 1:14:23 And you know what he said to me? "'Cause you don't give up on life. Go to bed." And-

Lex Fridman 1:14:31 You don't give up on life.

Teddy Atlas 1:14:33 And that's wh- I finally connected the dots. This idiot that didn't graduate high school (laughs) I finally connected the dots. I was asking Cus to give up on life. You know, you don't give up on life. You don't give up on aspirations of life. Life is all forms of life.

Lex Fridman 1:14:56 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 1:14:57 It doesn't have to be a physical form of it. It's life. It's having a reason to be alive. (laughs) It's having a reason to have tomorrow. And, and Cus's only reason to have tomorrow was to have another heavyweight champ.

Lex Fridman 1:15:11 Yeah, a champ.

Teddy Atlas 1:15:11 And Teddy Atlas, even though we were together all those years and we were partners and we trained together and we would... W- we were, you know... Well, the only thing we didn't do was what they did in the Indian movies-

Lex Fridman 1:15:22 (laughs)

Teddy Atlas 1:15:23 ... where, where they cut the finger and they became blood brothers.

Lex Fridman 1:15:25 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 1:15:25 That's, that's the only thing we didn't do.

Lex Fridman 1:15:27 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 1:15:27 And I felt like we did that-

Lex Fridman 1:15:28 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 1:15:29 ... wi- without cutting. And, uh, uh-

Lex Fridman 1:15:33 But still.

Teddy Atlas 1:15:33 ... and now here we are.

Lex Fridman 1:15:34 But still.

Teddy Atlas 1:15:34 And he freaking betrayed me, this... (slaps table) And, and, um, and then all of a sudden I connected the dots. I was like, "He didn't betray me in a... in that cold sense." He-

Lex Fridman 1:15:49 Didn't give up-

Teddy Atlas 1:15:50 Didn't give up on life.

Lex Fridman 1:15:53 ... on life. (laughs) Uh, years later, Mike Tyson apologized to you. What, what, what's meaningful to you about that? How does that fit the story?

Teddy Atlas 1:16:04 I wanna be the great, gracious guy right now. Say, "Oh, I'm so hu- human that, that, you know, uh, a man's man enough to say sorry. That's it. Uh, uh, we're good." I wanna be... Really, that, that's, that's, that's the, that's the best presentation of Teddy Atlas I could put out there. "He's a good guy. He forgives. He, he's a good guy. He's a, he's a, he's a standup guy, and he's a good guy." I'm not sure... (pause) if he truly did it for himself, that he really did it because he felt that (pause) it was true. But, but if he's persuaded by other things. He was in the middle... I know I'm taking it too deep. I know it, but what am I gonna do? He was in the middle of 12 steps with the, you know, getting out of drugs, alcohol, 12 steps, which is a c- a commemorable thing. Uh, really it is. And, and he's taking his steps. And part of the steps was to admit all... to apologize to all the people you offended in life.

Lex Fridman 1:17:12 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 1:17:13 Okay. But... (pause) are you doing it for the 12 steps, or are you doing it because you really, truly have come to terms with believing what you did was that hurtful to me, and that it matters to you that it was that hurtful to me, and that you were wrong in doing it? Did you do it for... I know that's deep. I know that I'm a freaking idi- um, uh... Y- y- you're, you're... Teddy, freaking y'all, you're... You should be better than that. He's better than you. Yeah, maybe he is better than me. Maybe he is. Really, seriously, maybe he is. And, and I took it. He put his hand out. I took it. I, we hugged. He said, "I love you." I, I, I... Yeah. Yeah. I, but I wanna believe... (pause) But what did Cus tell me? No matter what a man says, it's what he does in the end that he intended to do all along.

Lex Fridman 1:18:12 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 1:18:12 So to this day today, was it really genuine, or was it reflexive of that moment for him to get what he needed to, you know, for that step? Or was it truly for what I needed to, to really... that he really cared that he... what he did to me caused me to do what I did? Because I did something that was pretty damn bad to him too. Is he able to deal with that and put that where it has to be put? Is he able to put that... Or, or is it just he did something he had to do, and maybe he's sorry he did it? I know I'm... Uh, look, I appreciated that he... I would've rather been in a private place.

Lex Fridman 1:19:05 Yeah, so for people who don't know, you were in the middle of commentating a fight, and he walked up from behind you, and he said he was sorry. He shook your hand, gave you a hug. I didn't know he said, "I love you."

Teddy Atlas 1:19:15 Yeah. He's emotional.I get emotional a little bit too. But, but he, he's emotional and he can be, and he can be... I can see why people have a fascination and a love affair with him right now. 'Cause he was, because, you know, he was, he was the meteor, the meteor that went across the sky that is, if they didn't see it, their parents told them about it. There was a meteor that came across the sky one day, and, and, and the meteor's walking around in the room now. And that's the meteorite. And then, and it actually landed here, and, and that's it right there. And, and, and now he's come a long way, and now he's, you know, he's more human and, and he, he's lovable, you know, and, and, uh, compassionate and he cries. And, and I get the fascination, I get the love affair. I get it. Because we're inherently, we're people that want to forgive. We're people that we want to be good. We... And part of being good is to forgive people and to, to show compassion to people. And so, and when somebody's been damaged, uh, to acknowledge they've been damaged, to acknowledge that you know they've been damaged and you care about them being damaged. And how do you show care? Through admiration. You know, in, in some ways almost through adulation. And he's getting adulation from people, like, you know, uh, which is to an incredible level. And it's because... I- it's a phenomena. But, but I get it. I understand it. And, um, I don't know if he gets it. I don't know if underneath all of this. He's a complex guy. He's a sensitive guy. I don't know, and I am too.

Lex Fridman 1:20:59 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 1:20:59 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:21:01 One complex guy talking about another complex guy.

Teddy Atlas 1:21:04 I don't know if underneath it all, where he's really truly at, as far as that day that he said that to me.

Lex Fridman 1:21:12 Is there part of you that's sorry to Mike for pulling-

Teddy Atlas 1:21:15 I'm not sorry.

Lex Fridman 1:21:16 ... the gun on him?

Teddy Atlas 1:21:17 Yeah. And that's, listen, that's fair. I, I know dimensions of human nature too well to not know that he still has to have certain... Because I have those strong feelings, what, it's not fair for him to have them? Damn right it's fair.

Lex Fridman 1:21:34 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 1:21:36 Now, now he could look at it if, if he was to be held to his word that night, that he just acknowledges that what happened he deserved because of what he, you know, the position he put me in and he put himself in, what he did. And I wouldn't change nothing. You know-

Lex Fridman 1:21:54 But still, you're, you don't regret pulling the gun on him?

Teddy Atlas 1:21:58 I regret that I had to.

Lex Fridman 1:22:00 (laughs) Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 1:22:01 Yeah, I regret very much that, that I had to, that... I regret very much. Um-

Lex Fridman 1:22:06 He crossed the line.

Teddy Atlas 1:22:08 I hated him for putting me in that position. That, that, you know, how dare he think that, that somebody's feelings are that trivial. That the way I would feel about myself and the way the girl would feel about herself, that was 11 years old at the time, how she would feel about herself, h- how, how dare th- he think it's that trivial that, you know, that I shouldn't be ready to freaking, to both die and kill for that.

Lex Fridman 1:22:35 Yeah. Why didn't Cus D'Amato see it in a deeper way and talk through it?

Teddy Atlas 1:22:42 He did. The word came back to me. But of course, what does it mean? But the word came back to me that Cus said, "You were right. But if he took the side of Teddy, he would destroy a potentially a great, a great fighter."

Lex Fridman 1:22:59 Why do, why do you think that... Okay, if you were to try to understand the point he was making, why, why is that true? Is, isn't the part of greatness that you said is building the character of knowing what is right, what, you know?

Teddy Atlas 1:23:11 Cus was afraid to, to go there where he used to not be afraid. Because i- it's kind of like, you're never afraid of going up. And I've, I get it. You know, when I train a fighter now, if I come out of retirement and I train a fighter now, I feel in camp like I'm, I feel like I'm on death row every day. That, that if every day I, I try to retrace my memory and say, "Did I feel this way when I was younger? I, I don't remember feeling this way." I feel every day a dreadful feeling that if I don't get this right, I, I, I've betrayed everything. I've betrayed the fighter's trust, I've betrayed, uh, what I'm supposed to be. And then one, one day I tried to figure it out, "Why do I feel this way so intense?" I was in camp for two months training a guy for the world title a couple, few years ago, um, fighting the hardest puncher in the world at the time, and, um, Adonis Stevenson, and the fighter was Ukrainian. And I was, you know, brought in to train him for that fight. And he trusted me and changed his whole style. Trusted me.

Lex Fridman 1:24:16 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 1:24:16 Oh my God, I went to bed every night, like, praying, um, in dread, waking up dread, my stomach down to here.

Lex Fridman 1:24:24 Yeah.

Teddy Atlas 1:24:24 Every... Saying, "What, what if I fail him? What, what, what if everything that I told him was gonna happen don't happen? What if I fail him? What, what if he trusted me and I, I betrayed that trust?" And the thing was, the, with Cus was, you know, he used to be stronger than that. And then I, I tried to figure it out why I got this way, and why it was so dreadful to me, and why I felt like I was on death row every day training a fighter. Like, "Did I do enough? Did I do right? Will, will, w- w- will we accomplish what we... Will we accomplished what I promised him we would accomplish? Would I keep my word?" And, and then I started thinking, "Wh- how did I become this weak? How did I freaking become... I was a pretty strong freaking guy. How did I become this weak?" And then finally I think I figured it out. You know why?

Lex Fridman 1:25:12 Mm-mm.

Teddy Atlas 1:25:13 Because I was always working to get up. But once I finally got up, now I was looking down.... and it finally hit me. I said, "I didn't want to lose." I said, "There was nothing to lose on my way up."

Lex Fridman 1:25:25 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 1:25:25 Now all of a sudden, there's something to lose when you're up there and you're looking down.

Lex Fridman 1:25:29 And that's where he was. He was up there.

Teddy Atlas 1:25:30 And, and that's where Cus was. Cus, Cus was at the end of his rope. He w- he was... He accomplished two world champs, all this stuff, right? Everything. He... And, and, and he did it right. Now, all of a sudden, it wasn't about moving forward. It was about not falling down. Holy cow! I was like, "I got it, Cus. I got it. I got it." He didn't want to fall down. Oh my God. He didn't want to fall. And he... This was his last chance. You don't give up on life. This was his last chance to live forever. To, to make everything he did worthwhile. To have the youngest heav-... It wasn't just heavyweight champ. You gotta remember, he was the youngest heavyweight champ ever. And to have that, it was okay to die now.

Lex Fridman 1:26:23 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 1:26:24 And how's loyalty (laughs) to someone named Teddy Atlas gonna get in the way of that? That's a tidal wave that there ain't no wall that's been made high enough to stop that tidal wave. And now I'll stop myself. Yeah, there is.

Lex Fridman 1:26:44 Mm-hmm.

Teddy Atlas 1:26:45 But, but it'd have to be an awful big one. And you know what? Who are we to say that we could ever build that wall that big? Who is any of... Who am I to say?

Lex Fridman 1:26:54 Do you think, if you were to put yourself in the shoes of Cust, Cust Amato, can you see yourself having the big enough wall, or you would choose loyalty?

Teddy Atlas 1:27:07 Now, if I s- answer the way I feel, I w- then, then I'm, you know, I'm making myself John Wayne again.