Lex Fridman PodcastThomas Tull: From Batman Dark Knight Trilogy to AI and The Rolling Stones | Lex Fridman Podcast #259
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,194 words- 0:00 – 0:49
Introduction
- LFLex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Thomas Tull, founder of Legendary Entertainment, known for producing blockbusters like Batman's Dark Knight Trilogy, the Hangover franchise, Godzilla, Inception, Jurassic World, 300, and many more. He runs Tulco, which is an investment company that focuses on how artificial intelligence can revolutionize large industries. He is part owner of the Pittsburgh Steelers. He's the guitarist for the band Ghosthounds and tours with the Rolling Stones. But most importantly, he's humble, down to earth, and someone who has quickly become a mentor and friend. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now here's my conversation with Thomas Tull.
- 0:49 – 17:31
Legendary Entertainment
- LFLex Fridman
In 2004, you founded Legendary Entertainment, known for producing blockbusters like Batman's Dark Knight Trilogy, that includes Batman Begins, Dark Knight, and Dark Knight Rises, the Hangover franchise, Godzilla, Inception, Jurassic World, 300, and the list goes on. It's just some of the biggest movies in history. What does it take to make an epic movie like that? What does it take to make it happen from start to finish?
- TTThomas Tull
Well, (sighs) look, I, I have been enamored with movies since I was a kid as a fan, and I think what you need is to, is to be able to tell a great story. And if you're gonna tell a great story, you need a great director, you gotta start with a fantastic script, um, that, you know, is able to take some of these iconic characters that we did and put your own stamp on it while still respecting, uh, the mythology. And, uh, I had zero experience in movies and television before I started Legendary, so it was, it was a very interesting trip. Total luck, uh, that, uh, we had the opportunity to make five movies at the time with, uh, Chris Nolan, who turned out to be one of the greatest filmmakers of all time. But it's, uh, each one is its own little startup company, uh, and I don't think there's any formula to get there, but I know that if you don't have a great director and a great script, if you don't have that foundation, it, it's hard to pull off.
- LFLex Fridman
Who's the CEO of that little startup company? Is it the, the director? Who would you say kind of defines the success or the failure of a movie?
- TTThomas Tull
Well, when you build a big movie like that, it's an enormous effort 360 degrees. I mean, from digital effects, m- certainly the actors. I mean, if you have an amazing script, an amazing director, but you don't believe anybody playing the parts, that's a problem. So the reason I think it was so difficult to pull off is I always used to say you start with a stack of papers with words on it called a script, bring that to life, and you're asking an audience to believe in everything that you're trying to put out there, and you've got to cast that even if they're immensely talented individually, they have to mesh together and they have to have chemistry together. Um, and, you know, the director is kind of the general on the, the battlefield, but if you have a strong, uh, producer who's very hi- hands on, but it truly to me is each one had its own story and its own sort of how it came to be and why it, why it worked or didn't work.
- LFLex Fridman
So y- you said you were new to the industry, but you did a lot of revolutionary things with Legendary. So at that time and now, what is the, uh, the good, the bad, and the ugly of the business of filmmaking? What, what are some interesting holes that you were able to, or, like, problems that you were able to fix? What problems still exist that could still be solved?
- TTThomas Tull
Well, (sighs) look, the, the business has changed so radically since 2004. Uh, when I started Legendary, DVDs were still (laughs) a cash cow. So, you know, it, it's, that's how f- how far things have come. But I, I would say a couple things. The reason that I started it from a business perspective was, at the time, it was a $30 billion industry, and there was no institutional capital around the movie business, and I was fascinated by that because almost every other category that you look at of that size has institutional capital, private equity, et cetera, as kind of a cottage industry set up around it, and I was perplexed and fascinated that that didn't occur. And, and the way the movie business worked was unlike any business I'd ever looked at before. So after kind of convincing myself that there, you could actually make money if you were disciplined and had the right approach, uh, you know, went out, raised the, the money from the capital markets, markets, which was, uh, Herculean, still maybe the hardest thing I've ever done in my career to walk around and say, "Look, I have no experience. I've never done this before," but, you know. And then the second thing, being very fortunate at the time, uh, was able to partner up with Warner Bros. Warners at the time was run by a man named Alan Horn, who besides being creative is also a Harvard MBA, so really understood what I wanted to do, um, and Alan, you know, was just an absolute gentleman, someone that I still look up to to these, to this day. After Warner Bros., he went and ran Disney with their run, you know, between Marvel and Star Wars and everything. And so between, uh, Alan being responsible for Harry Potter, the Dark Knight stuff, and then onto all the Disney stuff, he probably had as great a career as anyone I've ever heard of in the movie business. So my, my first focus was around sort of two concepts, global, worldwide, large tentpole films and franchises and then the business aspect of being, uh, bringing long-term institutional capital to bear.
- LFLex Fridman
I'm gonna ask you dumb questions, which is, uh... (laughs) ... part of the style, I guess.
- TTThomas Tull
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
But just for people who don't know, uh, including me, what is institutional? What is capital? What is institutional capital? What is equity? What is private equity?
- TTThomas Tull
Got it, okay. Well, so, e- if, um, if you're starting a company and you go around to a bunch of your successful friends and say, "Hey, you should invest in my company," well, that- that's sort of, uh, that's great and it's capital, but it's not getting money from Fidelity or T Rowe or, you know, a sovereign wealth fund or an endowment fund from a university that has large pools of organized capital that has a long-term point of view on your business. So, if you get money from your neighbor who's a successful dentist, next year, the dentist may say, "Hey, I, times are hard, I- I need my money back." If your partner's with, you know, Fidelity or Morgan Stanley or any of these institutions, they have the capital and the wherewithal, uh, to- to say, "Okay, I'm looking in this over the next five to 10 years." And I thought there was an opportunity to bring that type of capital to the, to the movie business, uh, to- to be patient.
- LFLex Fridman
And the benefit of that patient, so it's long term, you have to deal with fewer parties and they would do much larger investments? It's-
- TTThomas Tull
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
So what- what are the benefits? What are the, sort of the challenges of that kind of investment?
- TTThomas Tull
Well, I think the benefits, in some ways, are they're professionals who are largely dispassionate, right? It's like, look, if you're hitting the numbers you told me and you're hitting your plan, great. Um, and the other- the other thing that always, uh, was interesting to me about the movie business is if I'm investing in an artificial intelligence company or a chipset company or something like that, um, a lot of the institutions don't have the technical expertise to really truly grasp what's being done so they don't, you know, other than good business practices, they're not offering every little opinion. The movies and television are completely approachable, meaning everybody has an opinion so, you know, whether it's, uh, "I think you guys chose the wrong actor for that," or, "Why did you do that move?" It's- it's, so it invites a lot more sort of second guessing and- and things like that, so that was always, uh, one of the idiosyncrasies of the business that I thought was, uh, you know, was interesting. Um, and- and then when you talk about private equity versus public equity, if you're a public company where the companies can, uh, are- are traded, you wanna buy Microsoft shares, you just go to your broker, go on TD Ameritrade and buy them. If, on the other hand, uh, you're talking about private equity, that's, uh, institutions or individuals investing in private companies, um, so thus the, if you have pools of capital that mostly invest in private equity deals, that- that's how you'd- how you'd think about it.
- LFLex Fridman
But it's difficult to make those happen 'cause it's individuals, you have to sort of, what? Have dinners and ag- agree?
- TTThomas Tull
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
So it's- it's much less, uh, it's, uh, much more human, much less mechanical, I would say.
- TTThomas Tull
Yeah. Now, and again, massive difference between large private equity shops who are professionalized and in the same category that I mentioned earlier, uh, versus private individuals who are wealthy or whatever, but again, it's- it's much more individualized when you're going, uh, to people who like your idea and just say, "I- I'd like to invest in this."
- LFLex Fridman
Is there, is that, from all of the kinds of investments you've seen, um, what do you think is the most conducive to creating works of genius? Whether that's in technology, AI space, or whether that's in movies.
- TTThomas Tull
Sure.
- LFLex Fridman
So creating something special in this world.
- TTThomas Tull
I would say a couple of things. Enough money that whatever endeavor you- you're- you're going into that you're not so nervous about the edges, right? If my-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- TTThomas Tull
... if I have $100 to spend and I'm, I think I can create a perpetual motion machine or something for $104, I can't do it because they're all over me about the budget. So I would say making sure that you have enough capital, making sure that that capital is patient enough so that it's, you know, if you're gonna do things that are extraordinary, it- it takes some time. And you're gonna break stuff, right? You're gonna make mistakes, you're- you're gonna have a whole bunch of s- film on the cutting room floor, so to speak. Or if you're in the lab, you're gonna have a whole bunch of broken stuff. And I also think it's very important at the beginning, uh, and I always try to do this with companies I invest in or buy, is make sure that you have a philosophical and somewhat mechanical alignment with the management team. So that going in, you both understand, hey, this is how we think about this problem or this company, this is what we feel like our culture is, this is what our goal is, and these are the metrics by which we'll agree to measure them by. Because if you don't have that shared, you know, hey, we're gonna take this journey, then I- I think that's where people get upset, disappointed, et cetera.
- LFLex Fridman
What about, um, this is a weird question, but constraints? So this is both for filmmaking and investment. Do you think more money is always better?
- TTThomas Tull
No.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) So I- I like constraints a lot. It's like, uh, constraints and almost like a desperation and deadlines are, uh-... catalyst for creativity, for, uh, for productivity, for sort of, uh, innovation. So, ca- can you kinda speak to that-
- TTThomas Tull
Sure.
- LFLex Fridman
... as an investor, as a creator? Like, what's, uh, what's the right balance here?
- TTThomas Tull
Well, I, I think if you're focused on a particular problem or a company or a thesis, is, is, if you have that focus and you feel like I have unlimited resources or renewable resources, so there's really, there's no leverage in the situation, right? There's no... If I fail at this, I'll just go get more money, right?
- 17:31 – 19:26
James Cameron
- TTThomas Tull
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- TTThomas Tull
... as you go. I mean, Jim, Jim Cameron is one of those filmmakers who, you know, is, is designing the plane a- as it's flying i- in such a brilliant way.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- TTThomas Tull
And, uh, I, you know, I've got to know him over the years and just in awe of the way his brain works. And, uh, so yeah. It's, it's a big component.
- LFLex Fridman
Can you speak a little bit more to him in terms of, uh, 'cause you're such a fascinating person 'cause you care a lot about technology, you care a, a lot about the cutting-edge of technology. So, how does he, a creator, a director-... build the plane while it's flying? Like, what- what's the role of innovation in this whole process?
- TTThomas Tull
Well, um, so I never made a- a film with Jim. I'm just a huge fan and- and got to know him, um, and Jon- Jon Landau, his producing partner, and one of the things that just fascinates me about Jim is... So, he makes Titanic, and there's a bunch of underwater cameras and things that they need that don't exist. So, he goes and invents them and, you know, has a good grasp of engineering and has not only the imagination but the ability to lead a team to build them. Um, I got to go down early when they were shooting Avatar, uh, at a warehouse, I think it was, where they were shooting. And as they were explaining to me how they were capturing it and that they could go back later because they created the environment, uh, it blew my mind and I- I said, "Okay, this is truly..." people talk about a- a big leap. This certainly is one. So, he has continued to push the envelope in terms of the art of the possible, and I- I just think he's an incredible genius in- in that way.
- 19:26 – 29:37
Storytelling
- TTThomas Tull
- LFLex Fridman
Again, another hard question. So, you, uh, in the realm of music care about story, storytelling. Is there some aspect in which money and beautiful graphics get in the way of story?
- TTThomas Tull
(clears throat)
- LFLex Fridman
In filmmaking, so if you think (sighs) um, if you think about Jurassic World, obviously that's an experience like any other. Like, what do we- what- what do you think about the tension between story, experience, and, like, visual effects?
- TTThomas Tull
Well, look, if- if you're using big effect shots and all kinds of tricks to cover over the fact (laughs) that you don't have a very interesting story to tell, that's where I think it gets in the way. Um, where I think you have these incredible filmmakers, we mentioned Chris Nolan and Jim Cameron, Guillermo del Toro, um, you know, you- you could go on and on of folks that just see the world differently and use technology to enhance the storytelling, right? To make you believe, uh, differently, uh, d- rather to- to make you not just suspend your disbelief but to feel like you're immersed in it. Um, so I've certainly seen it done expertly and I've seen it done poorly.
- LFLex Fridman
Uh, you've talked about this a little bit, uh, in the past. Um, you've kind of, uh, left the- the movie-making business at an interesting time. Perhaps you saw the changes. Um, there's been a lot of excitement with Netflix, with TV, so the- the role of film in society has changed. So, what- what do you think is the future of movies versus TV? Like, if you were, as a businessperson, as a creator, as a consumer, as a technologist, are thinking about the next 10, 20 years, what do you think is going to be the- the godfather, the great pieces that move us as a society in the next 10, 20 years? Is it going to be TV? Is it going to be movie? Is it going to be, uh, TikTok, uh, clips? What is it?
- TTThomas Tull
Well, so, and I- and I- and I think the other category that I would add to that that will be the next great medium is truly immersive virtual reality-
- LFLex Fridman
Hmm.
- TTThomas Tull
... uh, in which new storytellers will emerge, uh, especially when you can go into VR and there's enough computing power to sustain it and to allow it to be social and, you know, for you to have different paths to go down. That'll be, I think, the next realm of what storytelling and experience will- will look like. So-
- LFLex Fridman
Do- do you think a video game kind of world or is it more movies or is it more social network or is it all of it kind of blending reality and gaming and movies?
- TTThomas Tull
Yeah, I thought, uh, if you saw Ready Player One, which I love the book and- and the movie was cool too (clears throat) , but, you know, that- that's one version of it, right? Where you go in... Now everybody's talking about the metaverse and all that. But you go into a world that's fully rendered as yourself and you interact with that world. The other side of it is to go in somewhere between being a passive observer but being able to move around your point of view and experiences, which I think is interesting. And then, I think, uh, another- another adventure, so to speak, I could think of is a blend of video games. So there's a mission, right? There's, uh, there's obstacles, there's everything, and you move through it, but it's immersive and it tells a story at the same time. And that's why I think you're gonna see new amazing storytellers that we don't know yet that understand how to innovate and how to make you feel something in- in that environment. Um, and to your earlier point, y- you know, I saw probably around 2015 when Netflix decided to be bold, put out House of Cards, put out all the episodes, leave you in charge of the pace at which you would view them, uh, which I thought was- was great.
- LFLex Fridman
That was a gutsy move.
- TTThomas Tull
Yes, it was. And I can't tell you around Hollywood, anybody that says that everybody thought it was a great idea is not being truthful because everybody I talked to said this is... "They're idiots."
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- TTThomas Tull
Right? They're- they're... what do they know about movie-making and- and TV? And-... what I saw happening was if you look at what Netflix pulled off, and they realized that there isn't really a moat around the studios, you really could make stuff, um, and really good stuff, and so they started to create their own content. That pulled in Amazon, which pulled in Google through YouTube, and, and then you had Hulu. Then you had Disney deciding that they're going to have Disney+, and the next thing you know, you have some of the, the biggest companies with the largest balance sheets on the planet, uh, being in the creative business. That's, you know, if you're an independent, that's, that's bringing a, a knife to a, a gunfight, to be sure. And so, you know, I thought that was interesting. The other thing that it used to be that movies were where the big things happened and television was sort of, it was small screen, different experience. Then you had something like Game of Thrones come out-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- TTThomas Tull
... which was not only on the same epic level visually and storytelling-wise but had the budget to be able to do it. And now, I think you're, you're seeing, um, you're seeing, uh, all kinds of different storytelling taking place. And I also like that it's, you're not pigeonholed into a time, like, you got two hours to tell the story. You can do a three-part miniseries, a five-part miniseries. You can do television that's, you know, all kinds of different format. That, that I think is, uh, allows creators to do a lot more interesting things.
- LFLex Fridman
It is also interesting to consider the role of companies that enable that, like the capital that enables that. You know, without Netflix, you wouldn't, and HBO, you wouldn't have, um, some of these epic shows. And so for, if we're thinking about the virtual reality world that you're talking about, it's interesting to consider who will enable that. You know, now, like you said, Facebook is talking about Meta and Metaverse, but it's unclear that just having money is enough. Netflix did a lot of really revolutionary stuff. There's a, you know, Amazon has money. There's a lot of companies that have money that don't quite do as good of a job yet at enabling creators of, um, creating revolutionary new content that changes the, the whole industry, and that's probably going to be the case with virtual reality. There, there is a lot of money needed to enable experiences, like in terms of compute infrastructure. The, there needs to be a huge amount of money there, but you also need to somehow give freedom to creators to have fun, to do their best work, and at the same time, like, provide the, the perfect amount of constraints, all of that together. Like, however Netflix makes it happen, they do a pretty good job 'cause it's a very constrained platform, but yet all the creators I've ever talked to, comedians and so on, that work with Netflix are really happy 'cause they feel free to create their work.
- TTThomas Tull
Yeah, and I, I think a lot of times, you know, companies, uh, are a letterhead but it boils down to the people.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- TTThomas Tull
And I think, um, I, I've known Ted Sarandos a long time who, who ra- ran the studio at Netflix and now took over for Reed, uh, ru- running the company. But Ted, very smart, talented guy and understood early how to cultivate talent and relationships with talent which is important. When you're dealing with creative people, uh, their motivations and their goals are not always the same, right? They're not always capitalistic, right? And so in terms of being able to communicate, uh, with creative people, uh, that are not always A to B to C is, is a talent. And so I think they, they did a great job. Ted did a gr- a great job with that early. Um, you know, but I, I think that you're gonna see different formats. I, I, I don't think, I mean, going to a theater to see a massive movie on that screen in that format, I th- is a fundamentally different experience.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- TTThomas Tull
And I think you're gonna find movies, uh, you know, my old shop, Legendary just put out Dune, which I thought was phenomenal. Um, I, uh, you know, when we, when we secured the rights to Dune years ago, uh, yeah, it was, it, I was over the moon because it's, I love the book. I, I love the, the entire world, um, that, uh, that, that is Dune. And that's a movie that I think you see on the, the big screen. I, I think, uh, when Avatar 2 comes out, I wanna see that, uh, on a, on a big screen. But I think you're gonna see a ton of content is obviously being produced and it's not all gonna go to a theatergoing experience. So you're gonna see, I, I think different versions of this over the next five to 10 years.
- LFLex Fridman
In case James Cameron is listening to this, so he officially agreed to talk at the time of, uh, on this podcast at the time of Avatar 2 release. I'm just holding you to that in this (laughs) recorded conversation. Um, also just super excited, um, both the movie and, uh, the director.
- 29:37 – 33:31
Allure of movies
- LFLex Fridman
There is something special about movies. You know, they win Oscars. They, um, they're historic in nature. It, there, there's something about TV shows even when they're epic like Game of Thrones that they're forgotten much quicker in history. I don't know. Maybe that's because we haven't had enough of them. But, you know, the De Niro performances and, you know, the Scorsese films, all the great f- films that kind of we think of, uh, throughout the generations that define generations are films. Is that, um, is that just old school thinking? Is that always going to be the case?
- TTThomas Tull
Oh, I, I, I mean, look, to me-... going in a darkened theater with a bunch of strangers and the lights go down and you go on this journey, there, there is something special and magical about that. And I think movies have been a part of our cultural fabric forever. And for some reason, Hollywood in America, uh, i- it was, you know, uniquely positioned, uh, to do a great job with it, right? Uh, and not that there aren't great foreign movies but far and away, American movies, uh, you know, are... dominate the w- not only the world market but, you know. And so, whatever it is that we do well or Hollywood does well, um, you know, there, there's, there's something in the water apparently, but-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- TTThomas Tull
... I, I, I agree that I love movies and I will, you know, for the rest of my days. It's, it's interesting how creators can move back and forth now as well. That used to be a complete no-no. You're either a movie guy or you're... a person or a, a, a, you know, or you're a TV director, and that's that. But tho- those lines have completely, uh, blurred.
- LFLex Fridman
And they're also blurring... I mean, they're blurring all kinds of lines, like, they're, they're moving to TikTok and Instagram and, like, it... I know right now it seems ridiculous to consider that these, like, one-minute things c- could be considered even in the same realm creatively as a, as a film, but maybe that changes over time too. Maybe experiences can completely become fluid in terms of their size, as long as they have some deep lasting impact on you as a human being, as a consumer.
- TTThomas Tull
Look, to me, the whole thing is about either the moving image or even sometimes a picture will bring out an emotion, a reaction, something. So, you know, short form is harder because you have less time to set things up and all that. But I am sure there will be short videos and creators that come up with things. And if a moving image can get a reaction out of you, can make you feel a certain way and stay with you or inspire you, well, that, that to me is just the next evolution of whatever it's gonna be between humans and cameras, et cetera.
- LFLex Fridman
See, I think that's why, we've talked o- offline about this, that's why I love robots, is I think there's certain things in the short form with robots that immediately can bring out a feeling in people. There's something about our consideration of our own intelligence, of our own consciousness, of all the fears and hopes and the beautiful things about human nature, the dark things about human nature that somehow, especially Lego robots bring out, 'cause we have both a fear and excitement towards that. Are these going to be our overlords, our gods, uh, that o- overtake humanity? Are these going to be things like horses or something like that, something that empower humanity? Like, you don't know what to make sense of it.
- TTThomas Tull
Sure.
- LFLex Fridman
That's why they're super exciting.
- TTThomas Tull
Yeah. I agree.
- 33:31 – 52:24
Future of American industries
- TTThomas Tull
- LFLex Fridman
Speaking of robots and film, uh (laughs) , you've gone into traditional industries and disrupted them, uh, quite a few times. Was there, is there a system for deciding which industry is right for disruption? When you look at the world and see one of the big problems you would like to solve, uh, do you have a system of how you see which problems to solve? How do you look at the world?
- TTThomas Tull
Yeah. Well, on, on the business side of that, um, so I have a holding company called Tulco. I know, very imaginatively named.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- TTThomas Tull
And part, part of that is literally every name ever is now taken.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- TTThomas Tull
Like, registered and all that stuff. Um, so we're a holding company.
- LFLex Fridman
What's a holding company?
- TTThomas Tull
So instead of being a fund that has money flowing in and out of it and, you know, there's what's called a vintage year, I raise capital and I agree to invest that capital for so long and then I give it back to you, which I... sometimes creates artificial time pressures and things like that. A holding company is more permanent capital. So the idea was, behind Tulco, uh, was to buy almost always whole companies or majority stakes with great management teams in spaces that did not traditionally have a lot of innovation. And to have our labs group, who were data scientists, AI practitioners, uh, you know, uh, engineers, machine learning, et cetera, and to be able to bring that wherewithal to that company. So to provide them with the right capital and to provide them with access to technology that would be hard to individually recruit, uh, for that company. So I would say that the thesis was to look for industries that were large enough that hadn't traditionally had access to that type of technology or innovation, and to, to try to look for companies that not only, uh, looked that part but had management teams that embraced this and wanted-
- LFLex Fridman
Right.
- TTThomas Tull
... to take that kinda journey.
- LFLex Fridman
So, yeah, there i- there is quite a few industries like that, but that finding the industries and, uh, the management pair, because, like, those industries often have a lot of old school folks who don't... It takes quite a bit of work for them to leap into te- te- technology. I've, I worked quite a bit with autonomous vehicles and just the automotive industry. Depending on the company, there's old school folks. It's like Detroit thinking versus, like, uh, what do you call it? I don't know. California thinking.
- TTThomas Tull
Well, y- you have to... I think you have to look at the nexus of two things there. One is just plain old human behavior. If I am uncomfortable and I... this isn't...... a comfort zone for me and it's not something I have as a field of expertise, I'm gonna shy away from that.
- LFLex Fridman
Right.
- TTThomas Tull
Especially if I'm successful and I feel good about myself, and it's a big successful company or person or whatever it might be. Um, a- and the second thing is that, especially if you're a public company and you're being weighed and measured every quarter, you are rewarding the managers of that company to hit metrics and to be reliable, and to say, "Hey, I'm counting quarter to quarter (laughs) that you're gonna deliver what you say." It's difficult to say, "You know what, everybody? For the next two years, I wouldn't count on our financial projections at all 'cause we're gonna reinvent what we're doing. It's gonna lurk in the, work, uh, in the long run, and you're gonna see that this was a really smart investment five to seven years from now." Uh, w- that's not the way capitalism is, is currently wired, generally, right? A- and a lot of... So, again, if you reward managers with yearly bonuses and stock options based and tied to stock price and all these other things, i- i- you know, and then ask them to go break stuff, that, that's, that's hard, I think.
- LFLex Fridman
So, you're saying, uh, like, uh, so, s- so the, uh, the TalkCo approach to this, the private investment is, uh, the best way, or perhaps the only way, to enable this kind of long-term innovation. Investment, taking big risks and investing in innovation.
- TTThomas Tull
Well, look, we certainly are, are not, by any means, the only one doing it. I, I'm just saying that when you, when you think about big companies, th- more successful, you know, that are in old line businesses, and I hear people sort of talk about, "Well, why can't they just pivot? They recognize they need to be in the technology business." Well, 'cause it's hard. It's hard to steer a ship and turn it that big. And especially if it's not part of your DNA at that company. So, you know, I, I just think that what we tried to do is to enable management teams that know where they wanna go and to be patient with capital-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- TTThomas Tull
... and to also, again, bring, bring innovation, um, uh, to bear that, that they have access to. Uh, there, there's plenty of capital structures doing interesting things. That's one of the things I love about our country. This country innovates and this country invents things. And I'm constantly in awe of, of just the, you know, the human ability, uh, to, to innovate and to iterate. Um, you know, I, I get to hang around some universities, uh, including your old shop, MIT, and it's like-
- LFLex Fridman
I'm still there.
- TTThomas Tull
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Still there.
- TTThomas Tull
You're still there.
- LFLex Fridman
Still teaching there.
- TTThomas Tull
Still teaching. But that place is like Hogwarts.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- TTThomas Tull
I mean, it's, it's just, uh, i- it's inspiring.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- TTThomas Tull
Right? And, and certainly, the, the, the energy in Silicon Valley, which (laughs) now Austin, Texas, where we're sitting-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- 52:24 – 57:34
Tulco
- LFLex Fridman
In Talko there's the, the labs. So there's a, a data science component, there's an AI component. So how do they go into a company and help revolutionize that industry?
- TTThomas Tull
Well, there's different, uh, examples. So, um, one of our companies, Figs, makes healthcare workwear, started by these two brilliant women. And, you know, uh, early days helping, uh, to build the platform and recruit, and, um, make sure that the, the ... everything that we did at the company, uh, embraced technology. And at the same time, they were obsessive about their customer which is, you know, doctors, nurses, healthcare workers who are putting it on the line every day, and obsessive about their product. And when you have those two things come together, you know, you, you get the result that, that, uh, that we did at, at Figs. Um, y- we have a company called Akasure which its AI lab and base is down here in Austin, Texas. It was, uh, an insurance ... one of the largest insurance brokers in the world, and, uh, you know, we did a deal with them and sold some of our, o- our insurance holdings. It was completely AI driven. Um, and in that case you basically put the team inside the company, right? Because it's, it's a massive, uh, company with all ... And we've gone into all kinds of things. Um, so it just depends o- on the different, uh, situations. But the, the, you know, the biggest thing was just to make sure whatever the company needed, uh, they had access to the talent. Sometimes we'd build it, sometimes we'd help recruit for it. You know how thing ... In, in technology it's whatever works, right? There's, there's no one way to do things. Um-
- LFLex Fridman
Well, Akasure's really diff- uh, is really interesting as an example. So insurance is a fascinating space.
- TTThomas Tull
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
It seems like very ripe still for disruption across the board. So how do you ... It seems like a lot of the disruption has to do with like, uh-... almost the first dumb step of, we've been using mostly paper. Uh, like, it's not digitized. You have to basically convert, uh, create a, a infrastructure and a framework where, like, everybody is using the same digital system, like databases, and just organize the data. That it seems like that's a huge leap that basically can revolutionize major industries that still hasn't been done. Insurance is obviously the great example of that.
- TTThomas Tull
Yeah. And one of the things that struck me, uh, the f- the founder CEO of Axure is a guy named Greg Williams. They're out of Grand Rapids, Michigan. And as we were looking at expanding our footprint in insurance, I met with a lot of insurance executives. And they would talk about technology, but Greg, uh, truly understood the power of what would happen across actuarial sciences, uh, y- you know, predictive analytics and, and using machine learning to really run every aspect of your business. And then automating (clears throat) a lot of the just the back office tedious steps. And as you said, one of the things that was great for us, they already had, um, a, a data collection system and department, so they, so it was much easier to pivot, um, and, you know, I'm very excited about the future of that company. It's, uh, you know, they're, they're doing some pretty innovative, uh, groundbreaking things. And th- those are the things that I like doing, right? I- is that, um, yes, I, I want to make money, just, you know, that, that's what that is. But at the same time, what did you do with your time on Earth, right? Did, did you do anything to leave any kind of mark (laughs) that, you know, you did anything interesting? I, I can only speak for myself. There are many more ways, uh, to measure one's life, and I can only speak about how I think about things. Um, you know, I grew up poor in Upstate New York, uh, with a single mom and watched her work a couple jobs, and, you know, had to, f- from a young age, uh, s- you know, shovel snow and mow lawns and do all kinds of things to help her make s- make sure the lights weren't turned off, uh, in our little place. And so that's just something that I've always been driven towards. And, um, you know, I, I just ... I have really eclectic tastes and interests. And, um, you know, it's just, it's just been an interesting journey.
- LFLex Fridman
So help be part of and help enable some cool new creations across the board, like film, music, AI, manufacturing, just, you know, insurance, all, all the specific, uh, industries that you disrupted. Yeah. Uh, small tangent.
- 57:34 – 1:08:05
Intellectual honest and life lessons
- LFLex Fridman
Back to your childhood with your mom. Any, uh, memories kinda stand out, stick with you as, um, as something that helped define who you are as a man?
- TTThomas Tull
Yeah. Even though, you know, uh, the university and college experience was not part of the, the family tree, um, a- and we had n- no connections. I didn't understand, I didn't know what a trust fund was or prep school. I didn't know what any of that was. Um, but my mom from a young age would always say, you know, "You're gonna go to college. There's no, you know, if you choose to." And I, and I think from a young age, that was just an expectation, um, that, that I had and that she instilled. And the work ethic. I watched her ... And then my, my grandmother was, uh, was a janitor, a cleaning lady in a hospital for 50 years. And then I, I remember there were times of, y- you know, I'm probably 10 years old, it's freezing cold out, and if I don't go out and shovel six driveways, we don't have enough money to pay the bill. So, I, I don't know ... I'm not a psychologist, so I don't know how that manifests itself in my life today. But I think the grit to say, "I'm not in the mood to do this. I don't wanna (laughs) do this, but that's the work that needs to be done." And no excuses, not, "I'm a victim and I'm gonna sit around and talk about ..." No. It is what it is, and you have to get done what you need to get done. And a- again, I think it's, uh ... you, you can never fully put yourself in someone else's shoes or experience, 'cause I don't know what that is or feels like. But for me, tho- those were two, I think, formative things, um, that, that were important in my childhood.
- LFLex Fridman
So that, that's pretty ... the reality of life like that is pretty humbling. You still ... you've been so exceptionally successful that it's easy to get soft now. How do you get, uh, humbled these days?
- TTThomas Tull
(laughs) B- by getting up. You know, you know, I, I think, um, for me personally, trying to push the envelope and being weighed and measured, right? That's why I always loved sports too. There's a scoreboard.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- TTThomas Tull
And, you know, I'm a huge believer in opportunity, meritocracy, a- all those things that I, I think are, uh, ideals that we wanna, uh, aspire to. And I think that, um, there's a lot of things I'm involved with right now that I just wanna see if I can do it. I, I (laughs) wanna see if, you know, i- if ... And, and, you know, my own little mantra is cause the outcome, right?
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- TTThomas Tull
As much as you can. And at the same time, have the humility a- and not to have the hubris or arrogance to say, "I'm always gonna cause the outcome."
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- TTThomas Tull
'Cause you'll get your ass kicked pretty quickly and, and humbled. The world and the universe is a big place with forces, you know, be- beyond (laughs) , uh-... but I think, um, you know, I also think a lot about being intellectually honest, which y- when I do university talks and so forth, I, I think that's a superpower. Because if you find yourself making decisions based on other people's expectations, based on places you don't want to go, but, you know, you're, you're either... you feel like momentum is taking you there, um, I, I think that's a big problem. And there, there are people that go to our top universities and can't wait to get out and start their own company, and they want that pressure, and they, they want to, to grind. And there are other people that are smart and talented, but just say, "Look, I, I don't want to lay awake, staring at the ceiling, wondering how I'm going to make payroll. I don't want that in my life." And I think if you can square that up and be okay with it and say, "What, what makes me tick? What makes me happy? What puts me in a bad head space?" 'Cause there's a difference between challenging yourself and going against your nature. So, that's why I, I think that being intellectually honest and being able to really sit down and go inside your own head, and say, "What am I good at? What am I not good at? How am I gonna put myself in a position to be successful?" Because, you know, I'm, I'm working on my weaknesses, but I'm not gonna put myself career-wise in a position where I, uh, I'm just fundamentally gonna have a hard time being successful.
- LFLex Fridman
(sighs) Yeah, intellectually honest is a tricky one. And it gets, um... there's, like, levels to it too.
- TTThomas Tull
Sure.
- LFLex Fridman
'Cause, um, well, like, s- some of the things, you know, I, I think about w- when you, when you dream of doing certain kinds of big things, um, a part of intellectual honesty is to say several things. One is like, hey, um, the thing you're dreaming about, like, one, the fact that nobody's done it probably shows that you're g- g- you know, um, you're just a dreamer. This, this is not, this is not going to... Like, think clearly. The fact that it hasn't been done probably shows that it may not be the right path. And, uh, two is, like, if you're dreaming about stuff, there's a certain point where it's like, hey, you haven't done it. Like, why haven't you done it already then? Like, you have to be honest with yourself. Like, you-
- TTThomas Tull
That's right.
- LFLex Fridman
... have to be ambitious, like, you know ... Y- th- a lot of people work hard a long time for a dream, but you have to wake up and be like, "All right, I've been at this for 10 years." Like, with a startup, you launch a startup, and you think, "Okay, one year, two years, three years, four years, pretty successful," you know, but it hasn't exploded like you dreamed, and you have to shut it down, you know. You have to be intellectually honest there. At the same time, you might want to be, uh, s- like, step it up, lean into it, (laughs) say, almost like, um, the flip side of, like, intellectual honesty is, like, maddening ambition of just saying, "Fuck it. I'm gonna go all in." But that, that is a kind of intellectual honesty, saying like, you know, "The, the, the big problem here is I've been kind of g- going, doing too many things." Um, maybe with this, uh, dream, you have to go all in on it, all those kinds of things. I mean, this is human experience. It's complicated. (laughs)
- TTThomas Tull
Well, yes, with o- our... All human things are complicated. The, the... And I think there's a difference between being reckless and making well-thought-out, informed decisions. If you're gonna go all in, make sure you, you've, you know, measured twice, cut once, as they say. And one of my other f- uh, favorite... I, I forget. Many years ago, I heard this saying, and it stayed with me. It was, "Never mistake clear line of sight with distance."
- LFLex Fridman
Hmm.
- TTThomas Tull
And, you know, that... So, I, I think that the key, whether you're starting a business, or you're thinking about leaving the company you're at and starting a business, or just leaving for another job, any of these things, is as much as you can, right? And psychologists, I think, would tell us it's hard to be self-aware completely, right? That's the rub, that if we were all completely self-aware of everything that we did and strength and weaknesses, uh, it, it'd be a different world. But I do think you can work on that and at least challenge yourself to, to think about it and not be in a position where, "I'm, you know, I'm going to medical school 'cause that's what you do in my family and even though I'm miserable doing it," uh, you know, thing- things like that.
- LFLex Fridman
So, so definitely, you don't want to be sort of c- um, because you don't think, fall, um, victim to conformity, like just go on doing the same thing over and over that-
- TTThomas Tull
That's right.
- LFLex Fridman
... but at the same time, the (laughs) is, uh, measure twice and cut once. Um, it does feel like some of the, the biggest, um, leaps taken are where you cut once and measure later, (laughs) is you leap in first.
- TTThomas Tull
Sure.
- LFLex Fridman
And it's a- it's, so it's almost like a gut... I suppose that is a measurement, but you build up a good gut, uh, instinct of, like, what to do, and then you just do it. And then you figure out as it... It's the, it's the building the airplane as you're flying it.
- TTThomas Tull
Right. Well, and I think each one of those, uh, instances that you could probably cite has its own unique circumstances, right? I don't have a, a deep biotech background. So, if I suddenly stood up and said, "I'm gonna put everything I have into this idea," well-... that's, you know, those are, right? It's game theory, right? What (laughs) are the odds of success? If, on the other hand, uh, you know, you're, you're brilliant in your field, or you've seen some opportunity that you, you think is wide open, a- and you're gonna go for it and break stuff, that's great. Y- you just wanna wai- to me, always say, like, "How crazy is this on the spectrum of, you know, do I have any expertise? What is the downside if I fail?" Right? Y- you know, i- if you're f- if you're at a certain point in life with young children and you got a mortgage, and whatever else, that, that is one circumstance. Versus, "I just got out of Stanford," or, "I just got out of whatever, and I'm gonna go for it." It's just the whole thing, right? It's, it is complex, as you point out. And sometimes you just wanna have the right matrix in your head of decision-making process to try to arrive at the right place. And e- even if you get close, that's where I think you say, "You know what? The hell with it."
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- TTThomas Tull
"I'm doing this."
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah. Yeah.
- 1:08:05 – 1:12:04
Colossal
- LFLex Fridman
I do wanna ask you, um, about o- one specific idea that, uh, sounds super fascinating that you're involved with recently. You led the 50 million dollar seed round for a company called Colossal that is focused on de-extinction. Uh, s- this is funny relative to our connection, uh, and conversation about Jurassic World. They're seeking to restore lost ecosystems and use gene editing to restore the wooly mammoth to the Arctic tundra. Uh, how are they gonna do that?
- TTThomas Tull
Well, um, I met this fascinating guy at Harvard named George Church five, six years ago, um, and found him to be incredibly smart, uh, have an imagination, um, and he partnered up with a guy named Ben Lamm, who's an entrepreneur. And basically, th- the, the, uh, the press and, to me, the, the imaginative, like, uh, you're capturing my imagination by telling me you're gonna bring back the wooly mammoth and other extinct animals. And I, you know, will see where that road leads. I- I'm was more interested in an investor in the things that they're working through, uh, a- around understanding genes in a more, and proteins, and CRISPR, and all these other things. Because, um, being adjacent to George Church and his team as these things unfold over the next decade, I th- I thought was, uh, the right, the right thing to do.
- LFLex Fridman
So people are important here. Just like, investing in people and seeing what the hell they come up with.
- TTThomas Tull
Absolutely. I mean, you can look through history and, um, great things are done by great people, right? And companies, they end up over time becoming a, a logo, and a immediately what you think of them. But they started out with a person, with an idea, and a team that cultivated that and made that happen. Um, a- and I, and I think there are certain folks that are just immensely talented, that if you can be around, uh, them... And I also know his and his team's ethics in terms of, you know, after spending time talking about where the l- lines are. People in other countries that, you know, may not have the same process, may not have the same checks and balances, are doing this and pursuing this regardless. So, at least I felt like with, with George and Ben and their teams, they're also very responsible people.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm. This is where the human side of things comes into play. I've interacted with a lot of really brilliant people in the technology space, where you kinda, you know, there's a lot of ways to feel this out. You can ask 'em whether they kind of read literature. You c- you can feel out, how much do they really understand about, like, human nature here? Like, wha- whatever the technology is, when it actually starts to play, interact with society at scale, like, do they have an understanding or an intuition about how that happens? Some of that requires studying history. Some of that requires, like, just looking at the worst and best parts in, uh, events in human history to understand, like, "Hey, it doesn't always turn out like, uh, everybody hoped, um, that technology turns out." And to cons- if a person has a depth of understanding about history, about, uh, human nature, then I think that's the right person to, um, to mess with some of this cutting edge stuff.
- TTThomas Tull
Yeah, you want Marcus Aurelius with a PhD from MIT.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- TTThomas Tull
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Exactly. Exactly. Um,
- 1:12:04 – 1:20:45
Warren Buffet
- LFLex Fridman
you, just small tangent, but you mentioned, um, having a conversation with Warren Buffett. You spoke really highly of him, uh, as an investor, as a human being. What about him do you admire? What, uh, what d- wha- what from him, what insights have you drawn from him as an, as a great investor yourself?
- TTThomas Tull
Well, the afternoon that I got to spend with him, which, you know, is something I'll treasure forever... Look, sometimes when you meet people, even that are immensely successful, you, y- you may decide that after 20 minutes or a half hour, "Oh, you were in the right place at the right time," and, you know, that's, that's fine.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- TTThomas Tull
Uh, there are other people that are clearly different, special, and I don't care if you made 'em start from zero, you know, would, would end up i- in a, in a good place. And so, it was, it was a absolute privilege to spend the time with him. Um-... a, you know, and a, a couple of things that stood out in the conversation. Um, he is incredibly intellectually curious and well-read, and I like how simplistic he likes to keep his thought matrix.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- TTThomas Tull
And then also, instead of trying to outsmart the market, it seems like a simple axiom, but just, "Look, good companies that are led by talented managers, that are good businesses over time, are gonna get there. So I'm not gonna day trade, I'm not g- I'm just gonna, I'm looking for, uh, for value." And then just on life stuff, he just, you know, and, and also his ability to take in and then use (laughs) information, uh, i- it was incredibly impressive. So, uh, I only spent the, you know, I'd met him before, but I only spent one afternoon with him, but it's, you know, pretty incredible. And one of the things that stuck out to me is we were in the middle of talking about telco or investing or how we thought about it, and I said, uh, "You know, I'm trying to be smart about ..." And he stopped me and he said, "Char- Charlie Munger," his partner of many years, "Charlie and I don't try to think of the smart thing to do. We try to think what's the dumb thing we could do here." And I kinda laughed and he said, "No, I'm, I'm, I'm dead serious. We think a- about it from the standpoint of what could we do in this situation that later we'd be like, that was a really dumb thing to do?" And I actually thought that was ... it ma- it, it got in my head, and I, I still think a lot about that as I'm, as I'm dissecting problems.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) So there is, uh, like, it loo- that's a kind of long-term thinking, if you just avoid the dumb things, or if you, uh, if you simplify every- j- j- j- just focus on those simple steps, all it takes is just do that for a long period of time and you'll be successful. (laughs)
- TTThomas Tull
Well, it certainly worked for him.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- TTThomas Tull
That's all I can say.
- LFLex Fridman
What a- what about, what about you? Uh, you've been, uh, a great investor yourself. How do you know ... when y- when you judge people ... so I ... whenever I go to San Francisco, I was thinking of moving to San Francisco, that's why w- that's why I decided to, after really giving it some thought and talking to people, decided to move to Austin. You know, um, everybody's dreaming big and they have big plans, and it's actually ... I don't envy the job of ev- investor, uh, of any kind, because everybody has big dreams and it's, it's hard to know who exactly, uh, what idea is going to materialize, what, uh, what team is going to materialize into something great. H- how do you make those decisions, about people, about ideas?
- TTThomas Tull
Well, if, if, if I had any kind of a lattice work on this, it, it, it start, absolutely starts with the people. And I think the reason for that is your business plan is going to change. Right? There's very few businesses I know of that say, "We're gonna make a widget in this location, and 30 years later, we're successful and we just make a widget, and that's what it is." Things happen, right? And today, they happen with such velocity that you have to be able to make hard decisions based on imperfect information, and are you ... how are you going to calculate those answers? How self-interested are you going to be? What kind of ethics will you apply? What's your short-term versus long-term thinking? Are you able to give an honest assessment of a situation? Um, because the thing that you can count on is problems are gonna happen, things you didn't anticipate are gonna happen. How pliable are you? Right? How, how much elasticity is there in, in your ability, uh, to, to be successful? And I think it's important when you invest in something that you both see, y- y- you, you understand the roadmap ahead and agree to it. Right? It doesn't mean there won't be twists and turns, but you're not like, "Whoa. Wait a minute. What did we do here? I, this isn't what was in the, the thing I signed up for." Um, and then I, I think honesty and communication is a huge thing to me with ... you know, I always tell people if ... bi-directionally, if there's something going on, start the conversation with, you know, "Lex, we have a problem."
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- TTThomas Tull
"Okay, now, I, we're, I'm sitting up, you have my full attention, we're gonna talk about whatever it is." Bad news should travel faster than good news, um, and because it's going to happen, being in business with someone that is gonna shoot you straight and sometimes say, "I don't know."
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- TTThomas Tull
"I don't know what the answer is. I gotta go figure it out," that I can process a lot better than, "Look, I, I don't want you mad at me or disappointed," or, "I, I can't handle not having success, so we're just gonna kick the can and ..." I, I, I think especially in today's business environment, that's very, very dangerous.
- LFLex Fridman
So that's a bad sign not just because it's, uh, good to do, to communicate and be honest, but if, if they're not willing to do that, then it goes back to the intellectual honesty. They're probably not also able to be brutally honest with themselves when they look in the mirror about the, the direction of the company.
- TTThomas Tull
Well, look, I, I, I wasn't there, so I don't know, but I think if you unpack many situations that turned out negatively, most of the people, whether you're faking lab results, right, you have a biotech company, we have ... everybody's staring at Theranos these days. Do I think, in a lotta cases-... you're either the villain, like you started out saying, "I'm, I'm gonna screw my shareholders over and I'm gonna be a liar." That, that, that isn't my experience. Most things are little incremental moves that you say, "Uh, we're gonna get this right next week, but today we gotta make the presentation, so we're gonna just tweak things a little bit." That's a slippery slope, right? And so, that's why I think from a standpoint of people, you wanna go into the foxhole with folks that, you know, understand things are gonna happen and I'm gonna let you know about them and we're gonna try to solve them, uh, together. And, and then just in terms of the idea, it's ... I always ask, like, "Okay, if this company executed the way ..." That's the other thing that always cracks me up about financials. Whenever somebody pitches you, inevitably they'll say, "Our projections are really, really conservative." I'm, I'm still waiting for somebody to come in and say, "Look, my projections are wildly optimistic. We'll never hit these numbers," but anyway.
- LFLex Fridman
(Laughs)
- TTThomas Tull
Um, it's, uh, you know, if this company did what it says and executes and ... Does it matter?
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- TTThomas Tull
Right? Does it move the needle enough? And, and what are the, what are the things that uniquely position this company, uh, to be successful? And you just have to be able to answer, I think, a number of those questions, uh, pretty crisply.
- LFLex Fridman
But at the end of the day, it's still a big risk. So you're just trying-
- TTThomas Tull
100%.
- LFLex Fridman
... to minimize (laughs) to try to minimize the risk.
- 1:20:45 – 1:38:55
The Rolling Stones
- LFLex Fridman
(sighs) Let me jump to another topic. Y- you're an incredible human being that you're-
- TTThomas Tull
(laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
... involved with this. Your band-
- TTThomas Tull
Oh.
- LFLex Fridman
... Ghosthounds, is touring with the Rolling Stones. So, before we talk about your band, let me ask about that. What's that like playing with the Rolling Stones?
- TTThomas Tull
Surreal, just because they're my favorite band of all time. Um, the ... To me, the greatest rock and roll band, it's not even close, of all time. And, you know, to, to share the same stage, to, to be on tour, and to go out and get that energy from the crowd, um, you know? And every night we come off stage, and later when they go on, and you hear that iconic, "Ladies and gentlemen, the Rolling Stones," and then ... It's incredible. And, you know, what's, what's amazing to me about the band, next year will be their 60th anniversary. 60 years. And i- it's, it's hard to be around anything for that long, but making music and packing stadiums. And what's amazing to me, they can play a two-hour set, and it's not just that, "Oh, that's a hit," or you recognize it, it's like every song is an anthem, right? (laughs) It's, uh-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Yeah.
- TTThomas Tull
And so, uh, so it's, it's, it's been amazing. We got to play with them in 2019 and when they asked us to do this, uh, again, um, it's just, it's just a, a absolute privilege.
- LFLex Fridman
I asked you this offline. So, I know you are a kinda rock star.
- TTThomas Tull
Yeah. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
But just me, maybe I'm projecting, but do you get nervous? Such a large audience with the Rolling Stones?
- TTThomas Tull
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
It feels like there would be a lot of pressure.
- TTThomas Tull
Yeah, I mean, you, (laughs) you definitely don't wanna screw it up. I think, um, the band, our band, you know, is tight-knit and all that stuff. And I think that you ... The individual nervousness dissipates when you go out as a group and you're making music together and you sort of, "Okay, we're all in this and, you know, we're, we're doing a thing." Which is why, even in sports, I always look at individual events like ice skating or y- you know, anything where it's just you out there alone.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- TTThomas Tull
And that's, that's different than being, uh, with a, with a team and nerve-wracking. So-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- TTThomas Tull
Um, I- I'm sure if it was me with an acoustic guitar just going out, (laughs) it would feel different. But absolutely you get the right kinda butterflies, I would call it.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- TTThomas Tull
Um, and just the energy of playing music and having it be this relationship and you ... And look, I, I get it. I've been to a ton of concerts where I'm like, "Look, can we just get to the band, please?"
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- TTThomas Tull
But, uh, what's been great is just an amazing reception. Um, and we have this, this, uh, guy named Trey Nation who's the lead singer who's just incredibly talented. I mean, he, he's just, uh, not only an amazing voice, but just has that charismatic thing.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- TTThomas Tull
So-
- LFLex Fridman
He's great.
- TTThomas Tull
It's fun.
- LFLex Fridman
What's it feel like (sighs) to play in front of a huge audience? What's, uh, what's the ... As a guitarist, like what's, uh, the feel- ... Are you lost in the music, like you almost don't feel the audience? Does it add extra energy? Does it ex- extra anxiety? What, what does it make ... What's it feel like?
- TTThomas Tull
You know, stadiums are interesting just because it's so big and cavernous. And because, you know, you wanna protect your ears, so we use an in-ear system so that you are a little disconnected from the crowd. Because if you're playing that loud and you're standing in front of your amps without ear protection, that, that's bad.
- LFLex Fridman
Quo- ... How are you monitoring the sound? Are ... The in-ear stuff, is that pro- producing sound or is it e- strictly earplugs?
- TTThomas Tull
No, it's producing the sound, so.
Episode duration: 2:16:39
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