Tom Brands: Iowa Wrestling | Lex Fridman Podcast #245

1. 0:00 – 2:00

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with Tom Brands, Olympic champion and world champion in freestyle wrestling, three-time NCAA wrestling champion at University of Iowa, and one of the greatest coaches in the history of wrestling, leading the University of Iowa Hawkeyes for 15 years, including in 2021 winning the national championships and getting a Coach of the Year award, his third. He's known for his intensity, focus, and mental toughness, embodying both as a wrestler and coach the culture and spirit of Iowa wrestling. We recorded this conversation almost exactly three years ago after I attended the University of Iowa versus Iowa State wrestling meet in, uh, the historic Carver Hawkeye Arena. Tom graciously invited me to his home where his family, a couple of friends, and me spent several hours chatting about wrestling and life. We recorded this brief podcast conversation that evening, and I wasn't sure where, how, or whether we'll publish it. But returning to it now three years later, I realize just how meaningful that evening was for me, and even though I was nervous, didn't even put on my jacket, it's a moment I would love to share with others. The mix of intensity and heartfelt kindness from Tom and his family made me want to stay in Iowa forever. I think I will return there soon enough because of the amazing people there and because Iowa's still in many ways the heart of the indomitable spirit of American wrestling, a sport I love and to which I'm deeply grateful for humbling me early in life and helping me and many others build character through hard work. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now here's my conversation with Tom Brands.

2. 2:00 – 16:00

   Motivation

   1. LFLex Fridman2:00

      What's the best motivator for you or for your athletes, hatred of losing or love of winning?

   2. TBTom Brands2:08

      For me personally, it was definitely the hatred of losing. I was not a guy that was about pageantry. I was not a guy that was about the parade. Um, when I wrestled in Atlanta, um, I rented a three-cylinder Geo with my wife, drove home and mowed the lawn because it hadn't been mowed for a month, and I remember one of our neighbors driving by, and they were like... They did a double take like, "Oh, that's... I thought he was in Atlanta." Well, I was in Atlanta yesterday, I just sat on the stand and got a gold medal put around my neck. Um, that's how I was. Uh, that doesn't mean that it was a right approach or the wrong approach. It's just what worked for me.

   3. LFLex Fridman2:43

      But when you were a kid, you and Terry, you dreamed about winning that Olympic gold.

   4. TBTom Brands2:47

      Yeah, so-

   5. LFLex Fridman2:48

      You must have thought about winning then.

   6. TBTom Brands2:49

      ... there is the, the, the lure of winning, but what drives you is that, um, you know, as you move forward, there's just no reason that you have to settle for anything but being the best, and if, if... it just... it would get to you to the point where, "That's not gonna happen to me again."

   7. LFLex Fridman3:10

      So, what... the thing that keeps you up at night is the, the losses and, "That's not, that's not gonna happen to me again." That's the thought that keeps you up at night?

   8. TBTom Brands3:18

      That's the thought that drives you in your training. That's why you do, you know, nine ropes when Gable says do three ropes and buddy push-ups, and you're out of here, and you do nine or you do them until you can't do any more, and it's a very rare ingredient. The older I get, the more rare I find it is.

   9. LFLex Fridman3:37

      The ingredient of loss feeding, feeding that- the drive of hard training?

   10. TBTom Brands3:44

       Maybe that because everybody's so worried about the negative whatever, and "You're putting too much pressure on yourself," so maybe that. But what I meant was it's when a coach says, "Okay, finish with four ropes and, you know, buddy push-ups and four-way neck," you know, I would do 12 or 10. That's rare.

   11. LFLex Fridman4:04

       It's no longer about what the coach says. It's your own demons that you're trying to-

   12. TBTom Brands4:08

       Right.

   13. LFLex Fridman4:08

       ... exercise out. What's the few losses you've had in your life? Are all of them just melt together or is there something that stands out in your mind?

   14. TBTom Brands4:18

       I'm, I'm a guy that remembers, um, my career that well. Um, I know that I am judged on a very small portion of my life, and it's minutes of wrestling matches, you know, a lot of, a lot of winning, but there's some losing in there too and, you know, people think they know you because of that, and they think they know you because they see you in a press conference. But, um, you know, to go back to the original question, you know, I don't know how to answer that.

   15. LFLex Fridman4:49

       So, there's no losses that just... that eat at you still?

   16. TBTom Brands4:53

       There's opponents that I have learned a great deal from. I mean, my loss to John Smith, uh, in 1991, um, US Open was something that I learned a lot about. Um, I learned a lot about positioning. I learned a lot about the importance of parterre. Um, you know, in a certain kind of crazy way, I learned that I could go with the best guy in the world, even though it was 14 to 4.

   17. LFLex Fridman5:20

       Mm-hmm.

   18. TBTom Brands5:20

       And this is when tech falls were 15 or 12 points so I didn't get tech falled. I wasn't... that wasn't a badge of honor for me. But I knew I could go with him because it was one-point takedowns. I scored four takedowns on him. And I learned that I had to move my feet, um, and I learned what it meant to move your feet constantly and, and there's no break. John Smith is a very, very intense competitor that people know that now, six-time world Olympic champion, and I felt that firsthand. But I did not go in there, um, taking a back seat, even though the score, um, was very lopsided.

   19. LFLex Fridman5:57

       But you knew you could stand with the best of the world?

   20. TBTom Brands6:00

       I knew that, uh, this is what this is about, and you know what? You move your feet.... and you don't give up a lace s- that's so damn tight that it, you're, you can't, you know, feel your calf muscle. You know, and I had to get ready for the consolation side of the bracket 'cause I believe that was in the semis. You know, uh, you know, and you just learn from that, and it was, it was better than learning from, you know, a win over a second-ranked senior level guy when you're a junior in college.

   21. LFLex Fridman6:28

       Right.

   22. TBTom Brands6:29

       You know, you're wrestling the best on a stage.

   23. LFLex Fridman6:33

       So if you look back, you probably spent tens of thousands of hours on the mat, spilled sweat, blood, even tears maybe, maybe a few times. So technically or philosophically, how would you do any of those hours differently? Just looking back at the tens of thousands of hours.

   24. TBTom Brands6:51

       I would be more probably in my older age, I probably would've been more relaxed in my training, and probably would've went another cycle if I could do it over again. Um, in '96, I really thought that if, when Gable retired that I would be the next guy in line, and I was wrong, and that was immature of me. And-

   25. LFLex Fridman7:11

       In terms of the coach

   26. NANarrator7:12

       Yeah.

   27. TBTom Brands7:12

       ... in terms of the coach, yes. And I knew that Gable was close. I mean, I, I didn't know when, but it just so happens, you know, '97 was his record-breaking year and then he retired.

   28. LFLex Fridman7:22

       Mm-hmm.

   29. TBTom Brands7:22

       Um, but I didn't know how close he was, but I knew that had, you know, he went down with a bad hip injury, and, and so, you know, you're just, you're, you're not gonna, uh-

   30. LFLex Fridman7:32

       So what does, wha- what does a relaxed Tom Brands look like? You're saying you would, you would've been a little more relaxed?
3. 16:00 – 20:28

   Mental toughness

   1. LFLex Fridman16:01

      So on the flip side of problems in technique and repetition, here's, uh, a thing called toughness, mental toughness, something that maybe you or maybe even Iowa in general is a little bit known for. So how do you train mental toughness as a coach?

   2. TBTom Brands16:19

      You train mental toughness by putting them in situations that, uh, they're willing to go through but don't think they can make it, and then they go through it, and then all of a sudden, those barriers are down.

   3. LFLex Fridman16:31

      Does that have to do, uh, with physical usually exhaustion with the-

   4. TBTom Brands16:36

      It has to-

   5. LFLex Fridman16:37

      ... four reps on the ropes?

   6. TBTom Brands16:38

      It has to do with that and it has to do with, uh, understanding why we're doing it. And sometimes understanding why we're doing it might not come for months.

   7. LFLex Fridman16:50

      Mm-hmm.

   8. TBTom Brands16:50

      But there's blind faith. And we have a heavyweight in the room right now, this- this young guy that, um, he's like that. He doesn't necessarily understand it and he asks a lot of questions, but he does it. And he's been here four months now, four and a half months now, and he's getting better every day.

   9. LFLex Fridman17:07

      So mental toughness too is a matter of repetition? So you- that's ...

   10. TBTom Brands17:11

       Mental toughness is a matter of repetition and having an open mind and being extremely accountable, and- and not only accountable that when you maybe, um, when something doesn't go your way that you look in the mirror and own it, but accountable to the point of view that, "You know what? I gotta get tough in this situation right here right now, and this is what's gonna make or break me." And I talked about my own career being defined by, you know, a couple of minutes on the mat. But that's when you're gonna be defined. That's how you're gonna be defined. That's okay. So people are gonna talk about you, so you might as well have them talking about how doggone tough you are.

   11. LFLex Fridman17:49

       (laughs) What about... We live in a world now, I've often in my own work hear about this concept of work-life balance or overtraining. So you've been one of the hardest workers ever on the mat. You've coached some of the hardest workers ever. Do you think it's possible to overtrain, train too much? How big of a concern is it?

   12. TBTom Brands18:11

       I think-... peaking and burnout are frames of mind, or burnout as a, is a, like, you let things probably get to the point where you could have arrested them with a good frame of mind. Um, but peaking is a frame of mind and, you know, you have to know, be able to read, and that's a lot of it, and the individual athlete also has to know that it's a frame of mind. And so when you have a coach that's reading that the right way, and you have an athlete that is knowing that it- when zero hour comes, that you're gonna be ready to go, um, and knowing that there's light at the end of the tunnel if you feel like you're burning that candle at both ends, light's coming at- to the- e- at the end of the tunnel. I mean, you're good to go.

   13. LFLex Fridman18:55

       So you think about Gable and that whole dream of being carried off the mat because you worked so hard. And again, do you think it's possible to overtrain? So you said it's, uh, it's mental.

   14. TBTom Brands19:07

       I do think it's possible to overtrain if you have a lot of distractions.

   15. LFLex Fridman19:11

       So s-

   16. TBTom Brands19:11

       And if you're looking at your watch running out of the room-

   17. LFLex Fridman19:13

       Right.

   18. TBTom Brands19:14

       ... then yeah, you're gonna- in that frame of mind-

   19. LFLex Fridman19:17

       Right. It's-

   20. TBTom Brands19:17

       ... isn't gonna lend itself to excellency. And the thing is, is we, we have to accomplish what we need to get accomplished to get better every day. You can't kind of accomplish what you need to accomplish, you have to accomplish it. And when, when you're in that mindset, then the clock is irrelevant. There's no place for a clock in the wrestling room. And maybe a clock that times a match, but... And maybe a clock if... You know, we're, we're at student athletes here, but that's why we encourage our... You know, when, when you schedule your classes, that you don't have a class that comes right up to, you know, practice time, or starts, it's a night class and it starts at 5:30. You know, go to get the 6:30 class or the 7:00.

   21. LFLex Fridman19:59

       So you leave it all behind, your heart, your passion is completely in it, there's no clock.

   22. TBTom Brands20:03

       And when you walk in that wrestling room, there is no distractions. And it's never eternal. The only thing that's eternal is death, you know? There's nothing... And sometimes guys come in there and they wig out, "Oh, it's an hour and 25 minutes of, oh," or, "An hour and 45 minutes, oh."

   23. LFLex Fridman20:22

       Yeah. You have to be willing to go as long as it takes. There's no clock.

   24. TBTom Brands20:26

       There's no clock.

4. 20:28 – 22:16

   Weight cutting

   1. TBTom Brands20:28

   2. LFLex Fridman20:28

      Again, wrestlers are some of the hardest, some of the toughest people in all of sports, but weight cutting often breaks people. So what's your thought on weight cutting, both nutrition-wise, mental wise? How do you ap- approach and think about it as a coach in your own career too as ?

   3. TBTom Brands20:45

      It's a lot of discipline and it's a lot of discipline during a very uncomfortable time period that really doesn't last that long, but it feels like it lasts long and it's painful. And... But once you shrink your body down, and if you're hydrated, you'll get through it. If you're a little hungry, but you're eating, but you're hydrated, once you break that sweat, your energy depletion goes away. That's a fact. I've practiced that. You come in and you're yawning and you're, you know, you're starting to shrink your body down, and it's that time of year where, "Hey, I gotta get my body shrunk down," and you're dehydrated, you are dead in the water.

   4. LFLex Fridman21:23

      Mm-hmm.

   5. TBTom Brands21:23

      But if you're hungry and hydrated, when you break that sweat (snaps finger)

   6. LFLex Fridman21:30

      Have people gotten better with that over the years, over the past few decades?

   7. TBTom Brands21:33

      I think that coaches' science is better, I think that coaches communicate it, I think they always have. I think the bottom line is, is having the energy to implement that and taking a guy by the hand when he doesn't understand, and he's new in your program, and he's essential and/or he's unwilling to and not disciplined enough, because when you take him by the hand enough, they will learn that discipline.

   8. LFLex Fridman21:56

      Mm-hmm.

   9. TBTom Brands21:57

      This is an important aspect of wrestling, buddy. You know what I'm saying?

   10. LFLex Fridman22:01

       Mm-hmm.

   11. TBTom Brands22:01

       So, you know, it's not just go and show up for the match. I mean, it's not about just making weight either. You gotta be able to make weight, that's part of the warmup, that's part of the process, getting ready to wrestle.

   12. LFLex Fridman22:14

       It's the whole thing. It's the lifestyle, yeah.

5. 22:16 – 27:11

   Olympic dreams

   1. LFLex Fridman22:16

      When did you first start believing you're going to win Olympic gold?

   2. TBTom Brands22:22

      Uh, I don't know. I mean, I found out... Um, I, I got, uh, really addicted to wrestling really, really fast. Started late, but looking back at my life, um, wrestled my whole life with my twin brother. And when Terry and I would fight, it was wrestling and it was to maim. And so if, if you were... If you're, if some- if you're trying to maim me, I better be tough, 'cause if I roll over and expect you to scratch my belly when you're trying to maim me, I won't lose my head. And Tom and Terry Brands, there was no alpha male. And when it was on, it was on for real.

   3. LFLex Fridman22:58

      What do you mean there was no alpha male? There's... Both, both are-

   4. TBTom Brands23:01

      There was... There... A lot of twins, there's a dominant twin. All- a lot of them.

   5. LFLex Fridman23:04

      Ah.

   6. TBTom Brands23:05

      Very few times is there a situation where you're gonna... I'm gonna win every time in everything and then he's thinking the same exact way. And Terry used to describe it, like in... When we used to get interviewed a lot about our careers, um, like it'd be like you grabbing a steering wheel and me grabbing a steering wheel and fighting, and that's what it was like when you would wrestle him or fight him. And so I had that benefit. So when did I know? Well, I got addicted to wrestling really, really fast, in fifth grade, and started to research it, and I don't know why, and talked about the Olympics and, um, put it in my head and... Um, remember said something about being an Olympic champion in fifth grade and somebody made fun of me and I got in a fight in the playground. And I remember, um, getting pulled in, getting in trouble for that.

   7. LFLex Fridman23:56

      (laughs)

   8. TBTom Brands23:57

      And the people that got me in trouble for that were smart enough to not rake me over the coals, but they researched or they actually found out what the fight was about.

   9. LFLex Fridman24:06

      Mm-hmm.

   10. TBTom Brands24:06

       And I was distraught. I was, I was really emotional, like crying or whatever you want to say. You don't want to admit that too many times but... Um, but it wasn't because I got beat up or got my nose bloody or got punched-

   11. LFLex Fridman24:19

       Yeah.

   12. TBTom Brands24:19

       ... in the face or broke my arm, or there was any pain. It was because they stomped on my dream and they doubted me. And so I fought for that.... and, you know, that was a lesson. There's gonna be a lot of doubters. And one- one thing we talk about as a staff is our staff has to be lockstep in that hallway in our offices, and when you deviate outside of that, that is heresy.

   13. LFLex Fridman24:47

       So everybody has to be on board, confident that you're going to be number one in the country-

   14. TBTom Brands24:51

       When we go forward-

   15. LFLex Fridman24:53

       ... and number one in the world.

   16. TBTom Brands24:53

       ... and we go and put our public foot forward, there is a decision, we are unified, and there is no backbiting.

   17. LFLex Fridman24:59

       Mm-hmm.

   18. TBTom Brands24:59

       And we have great people right now, and we hadn't had that before. We've had det- detractors in our Hawkeye Wrestling Club. We've had guys that would go out and get rolled up in ankle laces and not care in our club, and we got Brandon Sorensen who got rolled up by James Green last night. But I'll tell you what, I don't, I don't have a problem with that. You know why? Because I know it means a lot to him. He didn't roll over. He didn't quit because he was on the consolation side of a bracket. And so when you have that and then you have, you know, if there's a disagreement, it's behind closed doors and then you're moving forward. And when you have people that when they're meeting your fans and your supporters, you know, they're talking the right way with the right message. And anything that's cattywampus to that, you gotta be careful there. You gotta be careful there.

   19. LFLex Fridman25:47

       So, that, in terms of affirmation, in terms of really believing as a team, as an individual, believing that you're the best in the world, did- did you... I'm sure you had detractors. You had people that continued after fifth grade that-

   20. TBTom Brands25:59

       And that's probably where my hatred of losing trumps my love for winning, because I wanted to shove it up their rear end bad.

   21. LFLex Fridman26:09

       Yeah.

   22. TBTom Brands26:10

       And the thing is, is we maintain a high level, and there's very few programs, Ok- Oklahoma State, Ohio State now, Penn State, I mean, there's four programs that try to win a national title every year, and that's it. And these, these, these other teams, they get up and they- they got a good team and they get up and they get going, and then when- when things don't go well, "Okay, we're gonna do it next year." Or, "This is a down year, we're gonna, we're gonna get right... We're three years out."

   23. LFLex Fridman26:38

       So no matter what, you're fighting for first place.

   24. TBTom Brands26:39

       We- we- we do, and we haven't won, and now you say, "Well, you haven't won in eight years." Well, you're right, we haven't. But look at our results, they're better, better than anybody out there and it's bec- and besides Penn State, and it's because of our mentality and because we have great people. Ryan Mornistar, Bobby Telfer, Terry Brands, our medical team even, our strength coach, Quinn Holland, we're all on the same page, and when I sense something, I hit it immediately. I don't have time to waste. There will not be dissention in that hallway.

   25. LFLex Fridman27:09

       Everybody's in it together, yeah.

6. 27:11 – 30:16

   1996 Olympic Games in Atlanta

   1. LFLex Fridman27:11

      1996 Olympic Games in Atlanta, can you take me through the day when you were going for the 62 kg gold? What did you eat, drink? What did you think? What was in your mind?

   2. TBTom Brands27:23

      Uh, it really doesn't matter. Um, I have a routine that, you know, I had a routine as a competitor that I could run through right now. Um, it was a lot of self-talk, very, very positive self-talk.

   3. LFLex Fridman27:35

      Visualization? Or just...

   4. TBTom Brands27:36

      Yes, visualization, um, self-talk, um, and- and that's how I- I was able to relax and getting ready for matches my whole life. Learned that very early age at a camp, at a developmental camp, at a young age, Terry and I did. And, um, I could tell you what I ate and I can tell you what I did to relax, and it doesn't matter. Uh, what you have to do is you have to find that peace, and I just know that when I was getting ready for the finals match, I had gone back to my room, I had my relax material, you know, and I was able to relax because I prepared for it.

   5. LFLex Fridman28:18

      Uh, hopefully I'm right on this, but just looking at the insane bracket you had to go through, you had to beat, just to get to the finals, you had to beat three world champions, eventually world ch- ... I mean, they've-

   6. TBTom Brands28:29

      And- and you know what? I don't talk about that, and nobody else does either, but everybody talks about it in their own career. So, now you're making my head big.

   7. LFLex Fridman28:37

      (laughs)

   8. TBTom Brands28:37

      But yeah, I had a road. I had a road, you're right.

   9. LFLex Fridman28:41

      That's- that is the hardest bracket I've seen, so I've talked to a lot of Olympic champions, that is the hardest bracket I've seen of any champion. So, uh, maybe I'm confused on this, but it seemed like a really tough day for you. Did you have... Did you know the bracket ahead of time? Did you know who you f- faced?

   10. TBTom Brands28:56

       You- you see the draw and it's a two-day tournament, so psychology comes into it as much as physical shape. Um, you know, because there's those you gotta sleep, you know, the night before after the weigh-in, then you gotta sleep again that next night after your semifinal match is gonna be in the morning, you know, and then you have to go back and rest 'cause your final match isn't until whatever time it was.

   11. LFLex Fridman29:21

       Mm-hmm.

   12. TBTom Brands29:21

       And so all this relaxation and all that stuff that you just talked about, that visualization and self-talk, that's what helps get your routine. You know-

   13. LFLex Fridman29:29

       And was there any doubt, any fear, any- anything there?

   14. TBTom Brands29:33

       The fear is the type of fear, and I just talked about this to one of my athletes today, um, Jack Dempsey talked about fear, and the fear of losing is what motivated him to try to take his opponent's head off. He was a boxer. And, um, that's okay. So, fear of competition, fear of screwing up, fear of, "Oh, I don't feel good," no. No, but that little fear that, you know what? There's somebody out there that thinks that, you know what? They- they're gonna, they're gonna revel in my... They're gonna, they're gonna, they're gonna eat it up in my misery. They're gonna love, they're gonna be thriving because I fail, and- and I'm not gonna let that happen.

7. 30:16 – 35:27

   Brother

   1. TBTom Brands30:16

   2. LFLex Fridman30:16

      Your identical twin brother, Terry, you've been at 'em, like you said, your whole life, and you're both some of the greatest wrestlers of all time. You won the gold medal, he won the bronze medal. You've mentioned, you know, all that really matters is the six minutes or, you know, just a few minutes, sometimes a few seconds define your whole career. So, how do you think about that thin line, the tragic line at the Olympic level between winning and losing?

   3. TBTom Brands30:42

      I- I think you come to peace that in the end when it's over that you did the best you could.... and that's certainly the case with Terry. Um, he has a career, credentials are better than mine internationally. You know, he won two world championships, I won one. And he won an Olympic bronze medal and, um, you know, I won an Olympic gold medal, but I only won one. A- and the thing is, is that's not what's important anyway. What's important is, is that when it's all over, you know, how do you look back on it? And you're kind of like, "Well you just said that you made sure that you weren't gonna leave anything undone." But you know what? There were tournaments where I did leave things undone and so how do you come back from that? Well, Terry never came back from 2000 because he retired.

   4. LFLex Fridman31:31

      Mm-hmm.

   5. TBTom Brands31:32

      Well, you know what? You duplicate and exceed when you're communicating to these young athletes. And because of that experience, that makes Terry a better coach. Because of, you know, 1995, that makes me a better coach. You know, m- r- realizing that there are certain things that unraveled in that year that I could've controlled looking back on it, and when you have that perspective, you can communicate.

   6. LFLex Fridman31:59

      So what ... Control. Is there ... Can you control everything? How, h- how big of a role is luck in this whole thing?

   7. TBTom Brands32:06

      Control how you react to an injury, control that. So you can't, you don't have any control over it, it's over, you know, you, whatever and whatever happened, but relax a- and you learn to deal with injuries better because of that. You have that experience that you let this thing maybe get the best of you. And that's just an example and, you know, Terry put a lot of demons to rest with that bronze medal.

   8. LFLex Fridman32:35

      So becoming an Olympic medalist-

   9. TBTom Brands32:37

      I mean he got-

   10. LFLex Fridman32:37

       ... a few demons could relax.

   11. TBTom Brands32:39

       Well no, he'll never admit that and he probably isn't truthful, and I should, I'm speaking for him, but he's truthful when he says that. But i- if, if I look at it and bronze sucks, um, but if I look at it, he did put some demons to rest and I'm proud of him for it. Um, there's something there that is a consolation in the fact that he won the consolation medal. The consolation medal sucks, but there is a consolation that he won the consolation medal.

   12. LFLex Fridman33:10

       That's a tough medal to win, by the way, yeah. Uh, but do you see the, the Shakespearean tragedy of it all that, uh, the line between winning and losing? So you often say that, you know, winning is everything, but it feels like especially at the Olympic level or you talk about NCAA finals or that tournament, you know, a, a split second missed move can result in a loss where you dominated all the way up to there. Do-

   13. TBTom Brands33:38

       You ... That's where your psychology comes in and that's where the repetition and all of the self-talk and visualization and the physical shape and e- everything comes together and so that doesn't happen. And tonight you, we got beat twice, actually three times, and we out-wrestled those ... We, we lost three matches and we out-wrestled the guy for six minutes and-

   14. LFLex Fridman34:00

       Mm-hmm.

   15. TBTom Brands34:01

       ... 30 seconds or one ma- one match went to overtime. And if our guys can move forward with the right perspective, I'm confident that they'll be better. Um, I'll tell you what, I'd take our guy over their guy any day. Any day. 'Cause our guys get up for every match and now we got a lot to work on.

   16. LFLex Fridman34:23

       Right.

   17. TBTom Brands34:23

       We got a lot to work on. But you know what? I could say all that and I'll take our guy and blah, blah, blah, but what are they gonna do tonight in their meal?

   18. LFLex Fridman34:31

       How are they gonna grow?

   19. TBTom Brands34:31

       What are they gonna do tonight in their rest? What are they gonna do tomorrow in their recovery? On their own necessarily? What are they gonna do Monday? Great wrestlers can use their imagination with a win that they're not satisfied with and go forward as if it was a loss, but it's still easier to go forward with that win. But they can, they don't just, "Oh, I won. I'm fine," and goes on. But then w- when they lose the exact same way that they could've lost before, then they go off the deep end and then that's when they're gonna make the change in their life. And we talked to, we talked about that to our team tonight and the, the mature rare ingredient is, is guys that can get better even with success like it was a loss without beating themselves up. That's complicated.

   20. LFLex Fridman35:25

       It is. It's a balance.

8. 35:27 – 41:28

   Champion mindset

   1. LFLex Fridman35:27

      You often talk about Iowa's focus on creating individual champions like Spencer Lee. Can you explain the philosophy of focusing on individuals versus the team?

   2. TBTom Brands35:40

      I think that we need to put them both together and the individual impacts the team and, um, you know, we haven't done that since 2010 and we need to do a better job of putting 10 weight classes out there that contribute to the team and if it's not 10 then it's nine and if it's not nine, it can't be four. You know? And that takes a lot of pride and, and takes a lot of, um, you know, where the coach is on top of it and, you know, you're not just working on the easy things, the glaring things. You're working on everything.

   3. LFLex Fridman36:23

      W- what do you mean by everything? So the v-

   4. TBTom Brands36:26

      Well like there's just some, you know, there's ideas that, um, when you're a coach, uh, that aren't, they're beneath the surface and you gotta find 'em.

   5. LFLex Fridman36:37

      Mm-hmm.

   6. TBTom Brands36:38

      And so when you're-

   7. LFLex Fridman36:39

      And that's where communication comes in.

   8. TBTom Brands36:40

      Yeah, but you're talking about, yeah, we gotta move forward. Well, what does that mean? Well, I know what that means, but how many, how many guys really know what that means in their program. You know, I th- there's so many levels of that.

   9. LFLex Fridman36:56

      You've said before that winning is everything. Uh, and that means people lose, most people lose. You know, there's- there's really, in whatever the context, there's only one winner. In many parts of our world today, outside of wrestling, that concept, the brutal honesty of that, is uncomfortable for people. So how- how do you think about this very philosophical, difficult concept of, you know, there only being one winner, that winning is everything? It's kind of a really painful idea.

   10. TBTom Brands37:31

       I don't think that that's a bad thing to have that mentality. I mean, I think of Kudakov. Um, I remember a story I read about him, he comes to mind. Um, you know, um, Sargous, I remember when he lost in London and I remember the look, uh, on his face. And those are some of the greatest wrestlers in the history of the sport, freestyle wrestling. And, um, you know what? It's what works for you. And you- you can talk about being at peace with your results and- and that the approach is and the journey is what it's about, but, um, and that's great.

   11. LFLex Fridman38:08

       Mm-hmm.

   12. TBTom Brands38:08

       And that relaxes some champions and that makes some champions really, really tick. Um, but not everybody. So, it's okay. It's okay. And if that wigs you out and that- that really makes you uptight, then- then- then go the other route. You have to find what works for you. That takes a lot of work. If you're lazy, forget it. Forget it.

   13. LFLex Fridman38:33

       So you and Terry, but in general, how do you find the line between extremely physical- extreme physical wrestling and rough wrestling or angry wrestling? To which degree has anger, whether it's in your wrestling room these days or in your own career, entered wrestling? Do you see it as a tool that can be used in the wrestling match?

   14. TBTom Brands38:53

       I think there's a balance-

   15. LFLex Fridman38:55

       Or as a negative?

   16. TBTom Brands38:55

       ... and- and- or not even a balance, there's a line that you go up to and you- you can't cross it.

   17. LFLex Fridman38:59

       Mm-hmm.

   18. TBTom Brands39:00

       Sportsmanship is everything. You can get dinged for points, you can get thrown out of tournaments. There's rules with, um, flagrant misconduct where you're kicked out of the match, other team gets the points, and then you have to sit the next meet. Uh, so it's very serious. The NCAA, uh, sends a message, a very serious message, about sportsmanship.

   19. LFLex Fridman39:22

       Yeah.

   20. TBTom Brands39:23

       And so we talk about that. The other thing with wrestling is there's rules in wrestling.

   21. LFLex Fridman39:27

       Mm-hmm.

   22. TBTom Brands39:28

       These guys that are tough guys, uh, outside of the rules, that's- that's what you want in your opponent. That means they're frustrated.

   23. LFLex Fridman39:36

       Exactly.

   24. TBTom Brands39:38

       You gotta be a- you gotta be a tough guy inside the rules of the sport. That's- that's more honorable than cold-cocking somebody and knocking 'em out.

   25. LFLex Fridman39:48

       So yeah, anger doesn't mean breaking the rules, but I mean, you know, you- a lot of people know you just watching you as a coach. There's- there's quite a bit of passion there.

   26. TBTom Brands39:56

       Well, come and do what you're doing tonight. I mean, break bread with me in my kitchen and see how big of a jackass I am.

   27. LFLex Fridman40:02

       No, you're a pretty nice guy.

   28. NANarrator40:03

       (laughs)

   29. TBTom Brands40:03

       Well, I'm not-

   30. LFLex Fridman40:03

       I can publicly-
9. 41:28 – 46:28

   Beyond limits

   1. TBTom Brands41:28

   2. LFLex Fridman41:28

      So do you remember a time that you really pushed yourself to your limits? So Gable talks about having to be carried off the mat. Have you really found that level-

   3. TBTom Brands41:39

      I said something about that too in a book, and I think I was misquoted one time.

   4. LFLex Fridman41:43

      (laughs)

   5. TBTom Brands41:44

      Um, and actually it was Gable's quote, and I was trying to make the point that Gable's quote was like this. And, you know, they were making it like it was my own words. I think it was the first Wrestling Tough book. But, um-

   6. LFLex Fridman41:56

      It's a good book.

   7. TBTom Brands41:57

      It's a good book. Um, but the story's Gable's. And I don't know if there's anybody that has done that besides him, and I think that's a very rare quality. Um, but I've definitely been in that nirvana level-

   8. LFLex Fridman42:15

      (laughs)

   9. TBTom Brands42:16

      ... of, you know, there's- you could go all day long and it doesn't... You'd have to- you have to shoot me to stop me.

   10. LFLex Fridman42:22

       Yeah.

   11. TBTom Brands42:23

       But there's a balance because you're not going hard with ur and holding your breath. It's not a uh, it's a relaxed. And, like, y- you got a guy cornered and w- who's most dangerous? Well, the guy that's cornered. And so that's where you relax. I'm not bum rushing him. I'm relaxed. I'm- I'm still moving, faking very fluid, guy falls down on his face, I run around behind him. That's offense. You don't have to just grunt to the leg and call that offense. Offense is a in and out, smooth, seamless.

   12. LFLex Fridman42:57

       Now you're starting to sound like a Russian wrestler.Yeah, well that's ... they're the best. In a certain light, looking at the history of wrestling, wrestling is much bigger than folk style, freestyle, greco. It's- it's one of the oldest forms of combat period. There's been cave drawings 15,000 years ago. Do you ever see ... so you're, you're, uh, one of the great coaches of all time, you now focus on a particular rule style right now, but do you ever see wrestling as bigger than all of th- this, you know, as- as, uh, one of the pure combats ?

   13. TBTom Brands43:32

       I do and we're raising $20 million for a facility to make it the best fill- facility on the planet. We have a vision to build the best facility on planet Earth and put the best wrestlers in it. And that is bigger than wrestling. Um, it's for the University of Iowa and our donors are doing it for the University of Iowa, but it is about the value of wrestling to me also. There is so much value to wrestling. Blind- blind people don't play football, they wrestle. Blind people don't play basketball. I mean, may- maybe they do, but it'd be very difficult. They can wrestle. Wrestling is a feel sport.

   14. LFLex Fridman44:15

       Yeah, there's no ball, there's nothing. It's just two guys or two girls and that's it.

   15. TBTom Brands44:19

       That's right. And- and b- y- y- you, I mean, I'm not gonna say you can't because somebody will get a hold of this and I'll get an email or a letter that says, "You said blind people can't play baseball and ..." Blah, blah. I'm- I'm just saying that blind people can wrestle very effectively.

   16. LFLex Fridman44:33

       Yes.

   17. TBTom Brands44:34

       I've wrestled with- with my eyes shut. I mean, was honest about it too. And it was- I was effective.

   18. LFLex Fridman44:40

       So was I.

   19. TBTom Brands44:41

       Why- why was I able to be effective? Because wrestling is a- is a- is a sport that you- you can overcome a lot. Your demons that you're overcoming, they're not limited with whether I'm blind or not. The demons that are overcoming are inside you.

   20. LFLex Fridman44:59

       Yeah, it's all in the mind.

   21. TBTom Brands44:59

       You have to overcome those demons from within.

   22. LFLex Fridman45:02

       So what's the future of Iowa wrestling look like with this facility and this momentum you have now and this great group of guys you have now?

   23. TBTom Brands45:09

       We have a good, young group of guys and, um, you know, there is a lot of buzz in the program and probably hasn't been this much buzz for quite some time. And our job is to, y- you know, be relaxed and be focused and not get caught up in the buzz. Um, but we have to put it together. And we have a catalyst, Spencer Lee, but he's gonna have to- he's gonna have to get better. And we have some other catalysts as well that are, um, you know, gonna help us in the future. Um, but they gotta get better. And so all this stuff about independence and accountability and, you know, being able to get better every day under duress and not knowing that you're getting better, but you are. You know? You know what that- you know what I mean by that? Like the great thing about Gable was, wrestling for him was is, you were getting better and you didn't know you were getting better.

   24. LFLex Fridman46:08

       Well, y- yeah, just like you said, uh, grow from success so even you- you never allow yourself to think that you're- that you're- you're getting good.

   25. TBTom Brands46:17

       All of a sudden you do something in the practice room that you've been working on and all of a sudden you hit it and it's like it was automatic.

   26. LFLex Fridman46:23

       Yeah.

   27. TBTom Brands46:23

       And then that, you know-

   28. LFLex Fridman46:25

       Builds you up.

   29. TBTom Brands46:25

       ... come. Yeah, that multiplies success and

10. 46:28 – 47:58

    Faith

    1. TBTom Brands46:28

       ...

    2. LFLex Fridman46:29

       So if I may say so, you're a bit of a m- man of the Bible. Wh- what's- where do you go? W- what do you go to the Bible for? Your faith?

    3. TBTom Brands46:40

       Um-

    4. LFLex Fridman46:40

       For strength, love, patience, wisdom?

    5. TBTom Brands46:41

       Same things I talked about, things that you can't control you turn 'em over.

    6. LFLex Fridman46:45

       Okay.

    7. TBTom Brands46:45

       So the biggest thing for me is I gotta turn over the things that I can't control, turn 'em over to- to that power and I'm gonna be a lot better off. And that's the reason why I'm not in the funny farm.

    8. LFLex Fridman46:56

       (laughs)

    9. TBTom Brands46:57

       'Cause it's very competitive to me.

    10. LFLex Fridman46:59

        Yeah.

    11. TBTom Brands47:00

        It's very serious that we- we know that these young wrestlers come to school here to be the best that they can be and to accomplish goals that, like me when I was young, they've set out to accomplish.

    12. LFLex Fridman47:13

        Mm-hmm.

    13. TBTom Brands47:14

        And they chose Iowa to do that, so we have to deliver. And because of that, um, peace with God, you know, it's pure. It's a pure motivation. It's a pure, um, platform. It's not- it's not doing this for my ego. We're not corrupt people. We're not liars and cheaters. And so often, uh, that gets in the way of a decent person.

    14. LFLex Fridman47:46

        Yeah. First and foremost, you're a good person and God helps you be that.

    15. TBTom Brands47:51

        Yeah, and we're serious about wrestling.

    16. LFLex Fridman47:53

        (laughs) Uh, so a couple more questions.

11. 47:58 – 52:03

    Family

    1. LFLex Fridman47:58

       What's the role of family in wrestling? You mentioned your wife, who I read, uh, turned you down when you asked her for a phone number, said it's in the phone book. That's pretty smooth.

    2. TBTom Brands48:11

       Her story of that is that she didn't want me to have to remember the number.

    3. LFLex Fridman48:17

       Oh, she's just being nice at this point.

    4. TBTom Brands48:18

       And I say, at this point, and I say, "There's no way." And I remember it very clearly. Like, "Hey, it's in the phone book." And I was like, "Okay, she's blowing me off. That's okay."

    5. LFLex Fridman48:27

       (laughs) but luckily you don't give up.

    6. TBTom Brands48:29

       Anyway, h- here's the thing with family. I mean, we- we have great people in our program. We have great parents. We have a culture of parents that- that's part of the buzz.

    7. LFLex Fridman48:39

       Mm-hmm.

    8. TBTom Brands48:39

       And this class that you see wrestling right now that's been here a year now, um, Lee, Miron, Costello, Warner, and then Lugo was a transfer, and I'm forgetting somebody and I don't wanna forget anybody, but, um, these parents are phenomenal and that's a different parental culture. Um, so the Kemmerers' dad is the same and- and, um, so there's a lot of good there. And that- that's a big- that's a big-... a big move because how we talk to parents, we don't talk to parents to get along with them. We talk to parents to help them understand, you know, where we're at with their sons.

    9. LFLex Fridman49:15

       Mm-hmm.

    10. TBTom Brands49:16

        And when you can have a direct conversation with a parent who's helping his son, or her son, the mom helping her son to be accountable and to own it, then you can get a lot accomplished, and that's what we've been able to do. And so you're solving problems like I talked about earlier. Um, that's part of the family. The other part of the family is the coaches, um, are like family. The other part of the family is the coaches, um, significant others and wives are part of the family. And we fed, you know, we fed 40 guys and an entire coaching staff and wives and their children here at Thanksgiving.

    11. LFLex Fridman49:56

        (laughs)

    12. TBTom Brands49:56

        And that equals 70 people.

    13. LFLex Fridman49:58

        Yeah.

    14. TBTom Brands49:58

        And it's- it's fun. It's fun. So, family means administration. Gary Barto, my- my athletic director gives us everything that we need to be successful. And he has an open mind for- for the sport of wrestling.

    15. LFLex Fridman50:14

        Mm-hmm.

    16. TBTom Brands50:14

        And wrestling's important in Iowa, so that's a no-brainer. But not if you're not a wrestling guy. But he sees we do it the right way, and so the commitment is there from him. If we were doofuses, you know, he- the commitment wouldn't be there.

    17. LFLex Fridman50:29

        So family is everybody is all in. I mean, it's from the wrestlers to the family to some of the others.

    18. TBTom Brands50:33

        It goes back to what I said earlier about our people. Our people are great. Ryan Morningstar is great. Bobby Telford is great. Um, Bobby Telford took over for a guy named Ben Berhow, who is great. Um, our medical team is great. Dr Westerman, Dr Wolf, uh, Jessie Donaworth, our athletic trainer is great. Um, B- uh, Terry Brands is great. Mariah Stickley and- and Elise Owens, our managers, are great. My daughter's a manager as well. It's great. Um, they're- they're hardworking young women. Our wrest- our Hawkeye Wrestling Club is- is where it needs to be in terms of how they help in their role. And now we have four women in there and- and that's great. And, you know, at least one of their dads is super involved with us. But, um... And so it's... One thing that I've learned is that you have to have that and if you don't have that, then you have to address it quickly. And those outliers, you know, let's solve that problem. Let's get it out in the open here.

    19. LFLex Fridman51:38

        Right.

    20. TBTom Brands51:39

        And if they're... you know, if it doesn't work out, it's not gonna work out.

    21. LFLex Fridman51:42

        That's a heck of a Thanksgiving dinner.

    22. TBTom Brands51:45

        Yeah. Next year... Well, I don't know if it'd be legal, but-

    23. LFLex Fridman51:48

        (laughs)

    24. TBTom Brands51:48

        ... I'd have to check with our compliance and, you know, they'd have to vet you. You could come. You can come and see what it's all about. This room is full.

    25. LFLex Fridman51:59

        (laughs) Oh man, well, yeah, I'll be back next year then.

    26. TBTom Brands52:01

        All right. Awesome.

    27. LFLex Fridman52:02

        (laughs) Last question.

12. 52:03 – 54:56

    Brands vs Brands

    1. LFLex Fridman52:03

       In 2014, I watched this video four years ago, uh, of you competing in, I believe, your first swim meet against your brother Terry. Uh, and you came out victorious.

    2. TBTom Brands52:19

       Not really.

    3. LFLex Fridman52:20

       Okay, so let's-

    4. TBTom Brands52:21

       I won the race, but-

    5. LFLex Fridman52:22

       Did you cheat?

    6. TBTom Brands52:23

       Here's what happened. I had researched this thing because I'm... that's how I am.

    7. LFLex Fridman52:28

       You practiced.

    8. TBTom Brands52:29

       No I didn't, but I researched it. In swimming, if you flinch on that starter block-

    9. LFLex Fridman52:34

       Mm-hmm.

    10. TBTom Brands52:35

        ... it's a false start. You can't twitch a finger and... because they would be doing that to get their buddy to move, or the guy next to them, you know? So you have to be rock solid.

    11. LFLex Fridman52:45

        Yeah.

    12. TBTom Brands52:45

        Well, when we went, Terry was leaning forward as the gun was going off, so he's moving. And so I was like, "No, no, no. False start. No, no, no, no." And he couldn't hear me, he was already in the water, and so he took off like a bat out of you know where-

    13. LFLex Fridman52:58

        (laughs)

    14. TBTom Brands52:59

        ... for the end of the pool and couldn't hear me and got to the end of the pool and it was a down and back. Well, that's a hard thing to do with a guy with no body fat.

    15. LFLex Fridman53:08

        Yeah.

    16. TBTom Brands53:08

        And so he burned a lot of energy.

    17. LFLex Fridman53:10

        Ah.

    18. TBTom Brands53:10

        And he come up on that end of the pool and he was like, "Where's- where's he at?" 'Cause he didn't see me.

    19. LFLex Fridman53:14

        Oh.

    20. TBTom Brands53:14

        And so we stopped him and then he came back and then we went another one and I beat him. Uh, but it's the only time that, you know, I would say that he was tuckered out, and that's the reason why. And, um, I'll also say this, we did a time where we timed my race, the one I won, and then we timed his first down to the wall, and then we timed his... the actual race where once he hit the wall, we timed him on the way back, and he'd beaten me. Now, how's that for being a-

    21. LFLex Fridman53:47

        That's pretty honest.

    22. TBTom Brands53:48

        ... honest-

    23. LFLex Fridman53:48

        That's pretty honest.

    24. TBTom Brands53:49

        ... accountable-

    25. LFLex Fridman53:50

        Wow.

    26. TBTom Brands53:51

        ... person.

    27. LFLex Fridman53:52

        (laughs)

    28. TBTom Brands53:52

        And I'm gonna tell you something else, getting in those shorts, those swim trunks?

    29. LFLex Fridman53:55

        Yeah. That was impressive.

    30. TBTom Brands53:56

        They are tight.

Episode duration: 55:02