Lex Fridman PodcastTucker Carlson: Putin, Navalny, Trump, CIA, NSA, War, Politics & Freedom | Lex Fridman Podcast #414
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,222 words- 0:00 – 3:53
Introduction
- TCTucker Carlson
... he said very specifically, "Depending on the questions you ask Putin..."
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- TCTucker Carlson
Um, you know, "... you could be arrested or not." And I said, "Listen to what you're saying. You're saying the US government has, like, control over my questions, and they'll arrest me if I ask the wrong question? Like, how are we better than Putin if that's true?" Killing Navalny during the Munich Security Conference, in the middle of a debate over $60 billion in Ukraine funding? Maybe the Russians are dumb. I didn't get that vibe at all. I don't think we kill people in other countries to affect election outcomes. Oh wait, no, we do it a lot, and have for 80 years.
- LFLex Fridman
The following is a conversation with Tucker Carlson, a highly influential and often controversial political commentator. When he was at Fox, Time Magazine called him The Most Powerful Conservative In America. After Fox, he has continued to host big, impactful interviews and shows on X, on the Tucker Carlson podcast, and on tuckercarlson.com. I recommend subscribing, even if you disagree with his views. It is always good to explore a diversity of perspectives. Most recently, he interviewed the president of Russia, Vladimir Putin. We discuss this, the topic of Russia, Putin, Navalny, and the war in Ukraine at length in this conversation. Please allow me to say a few words about the very fact that I did this interview. I have received a lot of criticism, publicly and privately, when I announced that I would be talking with Tucker. For people who think I shouldn't do the conversation with Tucker, or generally think that there are certain people I should never talk to, I'm sorry, but I disagree. I will talk to everyone, as long as they're willing to talk genuinely in long form for two, three, four more hours. I will talk to Putin and to Zelenskyy, to Trump and to Biden, to Tucker and to Jon Stewart, AOC, Obama, and many more people with very different views on the world. I want to understand people and ideas. That's what long-form conversations are supposed to be all about. Now, for people who criticize me for not asking tough questions, I hear you, but again, I disagree. I do often ask tough questions, but I try to do it in a way that doesn't shut down the other person, putting them into a defensive state where they give only shallow talking points. Instead, I'm looking always for the expression of genuinely held ideas, and the deep roots of those ideas. When done well, this gives us a chance to really hear out the guest and to begin to understand what and how they think, and I trust the intelligence of you, the listener, to make up your own mind, to see through the bullshit, to the degree there's bullshit, and to see to the heart of the person. Sometimes I fail at this, but I'll continue working my ass off to improve. All that said, I find that this no-tough-questions criticism often happens when the guest is a person the listener simply hates and wants to see them grilled into embarrassment, called a liar, a greedy egomaniac, a killer, maybe even an evil human being, and so on. If you are such a listener, what you want is drama, not wisdom. In this case, this show is not for you. There are many shows you can go to for that, with hosts that are way more charismatic and entertaining than I'll ever be. If you do stick around, please know, I will work hard to do this well and to keep improving. Thank you for your patience, and thank you for your support. I love you all. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now, dear friends, here's Tucker Carlson.
- 3:53 – 20:07
Putin
- LFLex Fridman
What was your first impression when you met, uh, Vladimir Putin for the interview?
- TCTucker Carlson
I thought he seemed nervous, and I was very surprised by that, and I thought he seemed like someone who'd overthought it a little bit, who had a plan, and I don't think that's the right way to go into any interview. My strong sense, having done a lot of them for a long time, is that it's better to know what you think, to say, you know, as much as you can honestly, so you don't get confused by your own lies, um, and just to be yourself. And I thought that he went into it, um, like an overprepared student, and I'm- and I kept thinking, "Why is- why is he nervous?" Um, but, you know, I guess because he thought a lot of people were gonna see it.
- LFLex Fridman
But he was also probably prepared to, um, to give you a full lesson in history, as he did.
- TCTucker Carlson
(laughs) Well, I was totally shocked by that, and very annoyed, because I thought he was filibustering. I thought he w- I mean, I asked him, as I usually do, the most obvious, dumbest question ever, which is, you know, "Why'd you do this?" And, um, he had said in a speech that I think is worth reading, I don't speak Russian, so I- I haven't heard it in the original, but, um, he had said at the moment of the beginning of the war, he had given this address to Russians, in which he explained, to the fullest extent we have seen so far, why he was doing this. And he said in that speech, "I fear that NATO, the West, the United States, the Biden administration, will preemptively attack us." And I thought, "Well, that's interesting." I mean, I- I can't evaluate whether that's a fear rooted in reality or- or one rooted in paranoia, but I thought, "Well, that's- well, that's an answer right there." And so I alluded to that in my question, and rather than answering it, he went off on this long, from my perspective, kind of tiresome, um, sort of greatest hits of Russian history, and the implication, I thought, was, "Well, Ukraine is ours, or Eastern Ukraine is ours already." Um, and I thought he was doing that to avoid answering the question. So, uh, you know, the last thing you want when you're interviewing someone is to get rolled.... uh, and I didn't want to be rolled, so I, a couple of times, interrupted him politely, I thought. Um, but he wasn't having it. And then I thought, "You know what? I'm not here to prove that I'm a great interviewer." It's kind of not about me. I wanna know who this guy is. I think a Western audience, a global audience, has a right to know more about the guy. And so just let him talk, you know, 'cause it's not, you know, I don't feel like my reputation's on the line. People have already drawn conclusions about me, I suppose, to the extent they have. I'm not interested really in those conclusions anyway, so just let him talk. And so I calmed down and just let him talk. And in retrospect, I thought that was really, really interesting, you know, whether you agree with it or not, or whether you think it's relevant to the war in Ukraine or not, that was his answer, and so it's inherently significant.
- LFLex Fridman
Well, you say he was nervous. Were you nervous? Were you afraid? This is Vladimir Putin.
- TCTucker Carlson
I wasn't afraid at all, and I wasn't nervous at all.
- LFLex Fridman
Did you drink tea beforehand?
- TCTucker Carlson
(laughs) No, I did my, my normal, uh, regimen of nicotine pouches and coffee.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- TCTucker Carlson
Uh, no, I'm not a tea drinker. I tried not to eat, you know, all the sweets they put in front of us, which is, that- that is my weakness, is eating crap. Um, but you eat a lot of sugar befo- as you know, before an interview, and it- and it does dull you. So I, I successfully resisted that. But I, no, I wasn't nervous at all. I wasn't nervous the whole time I was there. Why would I be? You know, I'm 54. My kids are grown. I believe in God. You know, I'm not, I'm almost never nervous. But, um, no, I wasn't nervous. I was just interested. I mean, I couldn't... I, you know, I'm interested in Soviet history. I studied it in college. I've read about it my entire life. My dad, you know, worked in the Cold War. It was a constant topic of conversation. And so to be in the Kremlin, in a room where Stalin made decisions, either wartime decisions or decisions about murdering his own population, I just, I just couldn't get over it. You know, we were in Molotov's old office. So for me, that was, I was just blown away by that. I knew... I thought I knew a lot about Russia. It turns out I knew a lot about the Soviet period, you know, the 1937 Purge Trials, the famine in Ukraine. Like, I knew a fair amount about that. But I really knew nothing about contemporary Russia, less than I thought I did, it turned out. And, um, but yeah, I was just, I was just blown away by where we were, and that's kind of one of the main drivers at this stage in my life of... You know, that- that's why I do what I do, is 'cause I'm interested in stuff, and I wanna see as much as I can and try and draw conclusions from it, to the extent I can. So I was very much caught up in that. But no, I wasn't nervous. I didn't think he was gonna, like, kill me or something, and I'm not particularly afraid of that anyway, so...
- LFLex Fridman
Not afraid of dying?
- TCTucker Carlson
Not really. No. I mean, again, it's a ti- you know, it's an age and stage in life thing. I mean, I've, I have four children, so there were times when they were little where I was terrified of dying, 'cause if I died, it would have huge consequences. But no, I mean, at this point, I- I don't wanna die. I'm really enjoying my life. But I've been with the same girl for 40 years, and I have four children who I'm extremely close to. Well, now five, uh, a daughter-in-law. And I love them all. I'm really close to them. I tell them I love them every day. Uh, I don't... I've had a really interesting life.
- LFLex Fridman
What was the goal? Just linger on that. What was the goal for the interview? Like, how were you thinking about it? What would success be like in your head leading into it?
- TCTucker Carlson
To bring more information-
- LFLex Fridman
Just information.
- TCTucker Carlson
... to the public. Yeah, that's it. I mean, I have really strong feelings about, um, what's, you know, happening not just in Ukraine or Russia, but around the world. I think the world is resetting to the grave disadvantage of the United States. I don't think most Americans are aware of that at all. And, uh, so that's my view, and I've, I've stated it many times, um, because it's sincere. But my goal was to have more information brought to the West so people could make their own decisions about whether this is a good idea. I mean, I just... I guess I reject the whole premise of the war in Ukraine from the American perspective, which is, you know, a tiny group of dumb people in Washington has decided to do this for reasons they won't really explain. And you don't have a role in it at all as an American citizen, as the person who's paying for it, whose children might be drafted to fight it, you know, to shut up and obey. I just, I just reject that completely. You know, I'm a ch- I think, I guess I'm a child of a different era. I'm a child of participatory democracy, to some extent, where your opinion as a citizen is not irrelevant. And, um, so I- I- I'm just... And I guess the level of lying about it was starting to drive me crazy. And I've said, and I will say again, I am not an expert on the region, or really any region other than say Western Maine. I just don't... You know, I'm not Russian. And, um, but it was obvious to me that we were being lied to in ways that were just... It was crazy the scale of the lies, and I'll just give you one example. The idea that Ukraine would inevitably win this war. Now, victory was never, as it never is, defined precisely. Nothing's ever defined precisely, which is always a tell that there's deception at the heart of the claim. But, um, Ukraine's on the verge of winning. Well, I don't know. I mean, I'm hardly a tactician or a military expert. For the fifth time, I'm not an expert on Russia or Ukraine. I just look at Wikipedia. Russia has 100 million more people than Ukraine, 100 million. It has much deeper industrial capacity, war material capacity than all of NATO combined. For example, Russia is churning out artillery shells, which are, you know, significant in a ground war, at a ratio of seven to one, compared to all NATO countries combined. That's all of Europe. Russia is producing seven times the artillery shells as all of Europe combined. What? That's an amazing fact, and it turns out to be a really significant fact, in fact, the significant fact. But if you ask your average person in this country, even a fairly well-informed person of good faith who's just trying to understand what's going on, "Who's gonna win this war? Well, Ukraine's gonna win. They're on the right side." And they think that because our media, who really just do serve the interest of the US government, period-They are state media in that sense, have told him that for over two years. And I-I, I was in Hungary last summer talking to the Prime Minister, Viktor Orbán, who's a, you know, whatever you think of him, is a very smart guy, very smart guy. Like smart on a scale that we're not used to, uh, in our leaders. And I said to him off camera, "So is Ukraine gonna win?" And he looked at me like I was deranged, like I was congenitally, (laughs) you know, deficient. "Are they gonna win? No, of course, they can't win. It's tiny compared to Russia. Russia has a wartime economy. Ukraine doesn't really have an economy. No, uh, look at the populations." He was like, looked at me like I was stupid. And I said to him, "You know, I think most Americans believe that because NBC News and CNN and all the news channels, all of them, tell them that because it's framed exclusively in moral terms, and it's Churchill versus Hitler, and of course, Churchill's gonna prevail in the end." And it's just so dishonest that even, it doesn't even matter what I want to happen or what I think oughta happen, that's a distortion of what is happening, and if I have any job at all, which I sort of don't actually at this point, but if I do have a job, it's to just try to be honest. And that's a lie.
- LFLex Fridman
There is a more nuanced discussion about what winning might look like.
- TCTucker Carlson
For sure.
- LFLex Fridman
You're right, a nuanced discussion is not being had, but it is possible for Ukraine to, quote unquote, "win" with the help of United States.
- TCTucker Carlson
I, I guess that conversation needs to begin by defining terms, and th- the key term is win. What does that mean?
- LFLex Fridman
Peace, a ceasefire, who owns which land-
- TCTucker Carlson
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
... coming to the table with a, as you call, the parent, the United States-
- TCTucker Carlson
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
... putting leverage on the negotiation to make sure there's a fairness.
- TCTucker Carlson
Amen. Well, I, of course, as a, and I should just restate this, I am, uh, uh, not emotionally involved in this. I'm American in every sense, and my only interest is in America. I'm not leaving (laughs) ever. And so I'm looking at this purely from our perspective, what's good for us. But also as a human being, as a Christian, I mean, I, I hate war, and anybody who doesn't hate war, um, shouldn't have power, in my opinion. So I agree with those, that definition vehemently. A victory is, like not killing an entire generation of your population. It's not being completely destroyed to be eaten up by BlackRock or whatever comes next for them. So yeah, w- we were close to that a year and a half ago, and the Biden administration dispatched Boris Johnson, the briefly Prime Minister of the UK, to stop it, and to say to Zelenskyy, who I feel sorry for, by the way, 'cause he's caught between these forces that are bigger than he is, to say, "No, you cannot come to any terms with Russia." And the result of that has not been a Ukrainian victory, it's just been more dead Ukrainians, and a lot of profit for the West. It's, it's a moral crime, in my opinion. And I tried to ask Boris Johnson about it because why wouldn't I, after he denounced me as a tool of the Kremlin or something, and, um, he demanded a million dollars to talk to me.
- LFLex Fridman
Oh wow.
- TCTucker Carlson
And this just happened last week. And uh, and by the way, in writing, too, I'm not making this up. (laughs) I'm not making this up.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm. Just for the record, you demanded a million dollars from me to talk to you today.
- TCTucker Carlson
(laughs) No, I didn't. And you paid. Um, no, I'm, of course, kidding, but, um, and I, I said to his guy, I said, "I just interviewed Putin, who is widely recognized as a bad guy, and he did it for free, he didn't demand a million dollars, he wasn't in this for profit. Like are you telling me that Boris Johnson is sleazier than Vladimir Putin?" And of course, that is the message. And so I, I guess these are really, it's not just about Boris Johnson being a sad, you know, rapacious fraud, which he is obviously, but it's about like the future of the West and the future of Ukraine, this country that purportedly we care so much about, all these people are dying, and like what is the end game? It's all so deranged that I didn't imagine and don't imagine that I could, like add anything very meaningful to the conversation because I'm not a genius, okay? But I felt like I could, at the very least, puncture some of the lies, and that's an inherent good.
- 20:07 – 41:20
Navalny
- TCTucker Carlson
- LFLex Fridman
So you mentioned Navalny.
- TCTucker Carlson
Mm-hmm.
- LFLex Fridman
After you left, Navalny died in prison.
- TCTucker Carlson
Yes.
- LFLex Fridman
What are your thoughts on, just at a high level first, about his death?
- TCTucker Carlson
Well, it's awful. I mean, imagine dying in prison. You know, I've thought about it a lot. I've known a lot of people in prison, a lot, including some very good friends of mine. So, I felt instantly sad about it, um, from a geopolitical perspective, I don't know any more than that, and I... uh, I laugh at and sort of resent but mostly find amusing the claims by American politicians who really are the dumbest politicians in the world actually. You know, "This happened, and here's what it means," and it's like, actually, as a factual matter, we don't know what happened. We don't know what happened. We have no freaking idea what happened. We can say, and I did say, and I will say again, I think... I don't think you should put opposition figures in prison. I really don't. I don't, period. Um, it happens a lot around the world, happens in this country, as you know, and I'm against all of it. But do we know how he died? The short answer, no, we don't. Now, if I had to guess, I would say, killing Navalny during the Munich Security Conference in the middle of a debate over $60 billion in Ukraine funding, maybe the Russians are dumb. I didn't get that vibe at all. You know, I just don't... I don't see it, but maybe, you know, maybe they killed him. I mean, they certainly put him in prison, which I'm against, um, but, uh, here's what I do know, is that we don't know. And so when Chuck Schumer stands up and, "Rah!" Or Joe Biden reads some card in front of him with lines about Navalny, it's like, I, I'm allowed to laugh at that because it's absurd. You don't know.
- LFLex Fridman
There's a lot of interesting ideas about, if he was killed, who killed him.
- TCTucker Carlson
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Because it could be Putin, it could be somebody in Russia who is not Putin.
- TCTucker Carlson
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
It could be Ukrainians, 'cause it would benefit the war.
- TCTucker Carlson
They killed Dugin's daughter in Moscow, so yeah, it's possible.
- LFLex Fridman
And it could be... I mean, the United States could also be involved.
- TCTucker Carlson
I don't think we kill people in other countries to affect election outcomes. Oh, wait, no, we do it a lot and have for 80 years, and it's shameful. I can say that as an American 'cause it's my money and my name. Um, yeah, I'm really offended by that, and I never thought that was true, and I spent... again, I'm much older than you, and so I spent my, my, my worldview was defined by the Cold War, and very much in the house I lived in, in Georgetown, in Washington, DC. You know, that's what we talked about. And, yeah, and the Left at the time, you know, I don't know, the whacko MIT professor who I never had any respect for, who I know you've interviewed, et cetera. Like, the hard Left was always saying, "Well, the United States government is interfering in other elections," and I just dismissed that completely out of hand, uh, as stupid and actually a slander against my country, but it turned out to all be true, or, or substantially true, anyway. And that's been a real shock for me in middle age to, to understand that. But anyway, as to Navalny, look, I don't know, um, but we should always proceed on the basis of what we do know, which is to say on the basis of truth, knowable truth, and if you have an entire policymaking apparatus that is making the biggest decisions on the face of the planet on the basis of things that are bullshit or lies, you're gonna get bad outcomes, every time. Um, every time, and that's, that's why we are where we are.
- LFLex Fridman
Does it bother you that basically the most famous opposition figure in Russia is sitting in prison?
- TCTucker Carlson
Well, of course it does. Of course it bothers me. I mean, it bothered me when I got there, it bothers me now. I was sad when he died. Yeah, I mean, that's one of the measures of... it's one of the basic measures of political freedom, are you imprisoning people who oppose you? You know, are you imprisoning people who pose a physical risk to you? I mean, there's some subjective decision-making involved in these things. However, big picture, yeah, y- uh, do you have opposition leaders in jail? It's not a free... it's not a politically free society, and Russia isn't, obviously, and as I said (laughs) af- a friend of mine from childhood, an American, actually, he's a wonderful person, lives in Russia with his Russian, in Moscow, with his Russian wife, and I had dinner with him. He's a very balanced guy, totally non-political person, and, um...... and speaks Russian and loves- has many Russian children, and, and loves the culture, and there's a lot to love. The culture that produced Tolstoy. You know, it's not a gas station with nuclear weapons, sorry. Only an, a moron would say that. It's a very deep culture. I don't fully understand it, of course, but I, I admire it. Who wouldn't? But I asked him, like, "What's it like living here?" And he goes, "It's, you know, it's great." Mo- Moscow is a great city, indisputably. He said, "You don't wanna get involved in Russian politics." (laughs) And I said, "What?" He said, "Well, you could get hurt. You could wind up like Navalny if you did. Um, but also it's just too complicated." You know, the, the Russian mind is not, is not exactly the sa- it's, it's a Western, it's a European city, but it's not quite European. And, um, the way they think is very, very complex. Very complex. It's just, it's too complicated, just don't get involved. And, um, I would just say two things. One, uh, I'm not su- I mean, I, I don't know, but my strong sense is that Navalny's death, whoever did it, probably didn't have a lot to do with the, the coming election in Russia. My sense from talking to Putin and the people around him is they're not really focused on that. I mean, in fact, I asked one of his top advisors, "When's the election?" And she looked at me completely confused. She didn't know the date of the election (laughs) , okay? She's like, "Uh, March?" Okay. Um, and I asked a bunch of other people just in Moscow, "Who's, who's Putin running against?" Like, nobody knew. So, it's not a real election, right? I- in the, in the sense that we would recognize at all. Um, second, I was really struck by so many things in Moscow, and really bothered by, deeply bothered by a lot of things that I saw there. Um, but one thing I noticed was the total absence of cult of personality propaganda, which I expected to see and have seen around the world. Jordan, for example. I don't know if you've been to Jordan, but go to Jordan. In every building, there are pictures of the king and his extended family, and, and that's a sign of political insecurity. You know, you don't create a cult of personality unless you're personally insecure, and also unless you're worried about losing your grip on power. None of that. That's- it's interesting, and I expected to see a lot of it, you know, like statues of Putin. No. There are no statues of anybody other than, like, Christian saints. So that was, like, I'm not quite sure, I'm just reporting what I saw. Um, so yes, it's not a, in a political sense, it's not a free country, it's not a democracy, uh, in the way that we would understand it or w- I don't wanna live there, okay? 'Cause I like to say what I think. In fact, I make my living doing it. Um, but it's not Stalinist in a recognizable way. And anyone who says it is should go there and tell me how.
- LFLex Fridman
I mean, this question about the freedom of the press is underlying the very fact of the interview you're having with him.
- TCTucker Carlson
Right.
- LFLex Fridman
So, you might not need to ask the Navalny question, but did you feel like, "Are there things I shouldn't say?"
- TCTucker Carlson
I mean, how honest do you want me to be? I mean it when I say I felt not one twinge of concern for the eight days that I was there. Maybe I just didn't... And I feel like I've got a pretty strong gut sense of things. I rely on it. I make all my decisions based on how I feel, my instincts. And I didn't feel it at all. Um, uh, my lawyers before I left, and these are people who work for a big law firm, this is not Bob's law firm, this is one of the biggest law firms in the world, said, "You're gonna get arrested if you do this by the US government on sanctions violations." And I said, "Well, I, you know, I don't, I don't recognize the legitimacy (laughs) of that actually, 'cause I'm American and I've lived here my whole life, and that's so outrageous that I'm happy to face that, that risk, because I, I so reject the premise, okay? I'm an American, I should be able to talk to anyone I want to, and I, I plan to exercise that freedom, which I think I was born with." And I gave them this long (laughs) , long lecture. They were like, "We're just lawyers!" But that was, um, it was, it was a v- let me put it this way. I don't know how much you've dealt with lawyers, but it costs many thousands of dollars to get a conclusion like that. Like, they sent a whole bunch of their summer associates or whatever. They sent, they put a lot of people on this question, checked a lot of precedent, and I think, and they sent me a 10-page memo on it, and their sincere conclusion was, "Do not do this." And of course, it made me mad, so I was lecturing them on the phone and I had another call with the head lawyer, and he said, "Well, look, a lot will depend on the questions that you ask Putin."
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- TCTucker Carlson
"If you're seen as too nice to him, you could get arrested when you come back."
- LFLex Fridman
Hmm.
- TCTucker Carlson
And I was like, "You're describing a fascist country, okay? You're saying that the US government will arrest me if I don't ask the questions they want asked? Is- that's what you're saying?" "Well, we just think based on what's happened that that's possible." And so, I'm just telling you what happened.
- LFLex Fridman
So you were okay being arrested in Moscow and-
- TCTucker Carlson
I didn't think I was-
- LFLex Fridman
... arrested in-
- TCTucker Carlson
I didn't think-
- LFLex Fridman
... back in ...
- 41:20 – 1:00:48
Moscow
- TCTucker Carlson
and... But more than anything, I try to see world events through the lens of an American, because I am one. And what does this mean for us? And it's not even the war, it's the sanctions that will forever change the United States, our standard of living, the way our government operates. That, more than any single thing in my lifetime, screwed the United States. Levying those sanctions in the way that we did was crazy, and that was... That... For me, the main takeaway from my eight days in Moscow was not Putin. He's a leader, he's whatever. They're... None of them are that different actually, (laughs) in my pretty extensive experience. No, it was Moscow. That blew my mind. I was not prepared for that at all. And I thought I knew a lot about Moscow. My dad worked there on and off in the '80s and '90s 'cause he... US government employee and he was always coming back, "Moscow, it's a nightmare," and all this stuff, no electricity. I got there almost exactly two years after sanctions.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- TCTucker Carlson
Totally cut off from Western financial systems, kicked out of SWIFT, can't use US dollars, no banking, no credit cards. And that city i- just factually, 'cause I'm not endorsing the system, I'm not endorsing the whole country, I didn't go to Lake Baikal, you know, I didn't go to Turkmenistan, I just went to Moscow, largest city in Europe, 13 million people, I drove all around it, and that city is way nicer, outwardly anyway, I don't live there-... than any city we have, by a lot. And by nicer, let me be specific. No graffiti, no homeless, no people using drugs in the street, totally tidy, no garbage on the ground, and n- no forest of steel and concrete, soul-destroying buildings, none of the postmodern architecture that oppresses us without, without even our knowledge. None of that crap. It's a truly beautiful city. And that's not an endorsement of Putin. And by the way, it didn't make me love Putin, it made me hate my own leaders, because I grew up in a country that had cities kind of like that, that were nice cities, that were safe, and I- we don't have that anymore. And how did that happen? Did Putin do that? I don't think Putin did that, actually. I think the people in charge of it, the mayors, the governors, the president, they did that, and they should be held accountable for it.
- LFLex Fridman
So, I think cleanliness and architectural design is not the entirety of the metrics that matter when you measure a city.
- TCTucker Carlson
They're the main metrics that matter. They're the main metrics that matter. The main metrics that matter are cleanliness, safety, and beauty, in my opinion. And one of the big lies that we are told in our world is that, "No, something you can't measure, that has no actual effect on your life matters most." Bullshit. What matters most, to say it again, beauty, safety, cleanliness. Uh, th- lots of other things matter too. A whole bunch of things matter, but if I were to put them in order, it's not some, like, theoretical, "Well, actually, I don't know if you know that the Duma has no power." It's like, okay, gr- I get that, freedom of speech matters enormously to me. They have less freedom of speech in Russia than we do in the United States. We are superior to them in that way. But you can't tell me that living in a city where, you know, your six-year-old daughter can walk to the bus stop and ride on a clean bus or ride in a beautiful subway car that's on time and not get assaulted, that doesn't matter. No, that matters almost more than anything actually. And we can have both, and like the normal regime defenders and morons, Jon Stewart or whatever he's calling himself, they're like, "Well, that's the price of freedom." Like, people shitting on the sidewalk is the price of freedom. It's like, you can't fool me because I've lived here for 54 years. I know that it's not the price of freedom, 'cause I lived in a country that was both free and clean and orderly. So, that's not a trade-off I think I have to make. Y- you can't w- that is the beauty of being a little bit older, because you're like, "No, I remember that actually. It wasn't what you're saying. We didn't have racial segregation in 1985. It was a really nice country that kind of respected itself. I was here." And I think with younger people, you can tell them that, and they're like, "Well, 1985, you were s- you know, selling slaves in Madison Square Garden." It's like, no, you- they weren't. You're going to Madison Square Garden and not stepping over a single fentanyl addict.
- LFLex Fridman
It is true there doesn't have to be a trade-off between cleanliness and freedom of speech, but it is also true that in dictatorships, cleanliness is, and architectural design is easier to achieve and perfect, and often is done so, so you can show off, "Look how great our cities are," while you're suppressing-
- TCTucker Carlson
Of course, of course. I agree with that vehemently. This is not a defense of the Russian system at all. And if I felt that way, I would not only move there, but I would announce I was moving there. I'm not ashamed of my views. I never have been. And for all the people who are trying to impute secret motives to my words, I'm like the one person in America you don't need to do that with. If you think I'm a racist, ask me, and I'll tell you. If you think-
- LFLex Fridman
Are you a racist?
- TCTucker Carlson
Of c- (laughs) no.
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- TCTucker Carlson
I am a sexist, though. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
All right, great.
- TCTucker Carlson
Anyway, no, but if I was like-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- TCTucker Carlson
... a defender of Vladimir Putin, I would just say I'm defending Vladimir Putin now. I'm not. I am attacking our leaders, and I'm grieving over the low expectations of our people. You don't need to put up with this. You don't need to put up with foreign invaders stealing from you. You know, occupying your kids' school? Your kids can't get an education because people from foreign countries broke our laws and showed up here, and they've taken over the school? Th- it's- that's not a feature of freedom, actually. That's the opposite. That's what enslavement looks like. And so, I'm just saying, raise your expectations a little bit. You can have a clean, functional, safe country. Crime is totally optional. Crime is something our leaders decide to have or not have. It's not something that just appears organically. I, I wrote a book about crime 30 years ago. I- I've thought a lot about this. Cr- you have as much crime as you put up with, period. And it doesn't make you less free to not tolerate murder. In fact, it makes you unfree to have a lot of murders. Uh, and so I just- but it makes me sad that people are like, "Well, you know, I guess this is t- I c- I can't, like, live in New York City anymore 'cause of inflation and filth and illegal aliens and people shooting each other, but, you know, I'm just g- I'm glad because this is vibrant and strong and free." It's like, that's not freedom actually, at all.
- LFLex Fridman
Your point is well taken. You can have both, but do you regret-
- TCTucker Carlson
We had both, that's the point.
- LFLex Fridman
... yes.
- TCTucker Carlson
We had b- I saw it.
- LFLex Fridman
Do you regret, to a degree, using the Moscow subway and the grocery store as a mechanism by which to make that point?
- TCTucker Carlson
No. I mean, I thought I- I mean, look, I'm one of the more un-self-aware people you will ever interview, so to ask me, uh, you know, how will this be perceived? (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- TCTucker Carlson
I literally have no idea, and kind of limited interest. But, um, I- I was just so shocked by it. I was so shocked by it, and, and there were two... And, uh, to the extent I regret anything and am to blame for anything, it would be not, and I've done this a lot, not giving it context, not fully explaining why are we doing this?
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- TCTucker Carlson
The grocery store, I was shocked by the prices. And yes, I'm familiar with exchange rates.... but very familiar with exchange rates. But those don't, and I adjusted them for exchange rates, and this is two years into sanctions, total isolation from the West. So, I would expect, in fact I did expect until I got there, that their supply chains would be crushed. How do you get good stuff if you don't have access to Western markets? And I didn't fully get the answer because I was occupied doing other things when I was there. But somehow they have, and that's the point. And they haven't had the supply chains pro- problems that I predicted. In other words, sanctions haven't made the country noticeably worse. Okay. So again, this is commentary on the United States and our policy makers. Why are we doing this? It's forcing the rest of the world into a block against us called BRICS. They're getting off the US dollar. That will mean a lot of dollars are gonna come back here and destroy our economy, and impoverish this country. So the consequences, the stakes were really high. They're huge. And we're not even hurting Russia, so like what the hell are we doing? One, on the subway, that subway was built by Joseph Stalin right before the Second World War. I'm not endorsing Stalin, I, (laughs) obviously. Stalinism, Stalinism is a thing that I hate, and I don't want to come to my country. I'm making the obvious point that for over 80 years, you've had these frescoes and chandeliers, maybe they've been redone or whatever, but like somehow the society has been able to not destroy what its ancestors built, the things that are worth having. And they're a lot. And that, like why don't we have that? And e- even on a much more terrestrial plane, like why can't I have a subway station like that? Why can't my children who live in New York City ride the subway? A lot of people I know who live in New York City are afraid to ride the subway. Young women especially. That's freedom? No. Again, it's slavery. And how can, if Putin can do this, why can't we? Like what? It's not, in other words, I mean, this is like so obvious. I'm a traitor? Okay. So if I'm calling for American citizens to demand more from their government, and higher standards for their own society, and remember that just 30 years ago we had a much different and much happier and cleaner and healthier society, where everyone wasn't fat with diabetes at 40 from poisoned food, like how is that... I'm not a traitor to my country, I'm a defender of my country. And by the way, the people calling me a traitor, they're all like, you know, whatever. Uh, they're not, I- I would not say they're people who put America's interests first. (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
But there-
- TCTucker Carlson
To put it mildly.
- LFLex Fridman
There's many elements, like you said you don't like Stalinism. You know, you're a student of history. Central planning is good at building subways in a way that's really nice. The thing that accounts for New York's subways, by the way, there's a lot of really positive things about New York's subways. Not cleanliness, but the efficiency, like the accessibility, how f- how wide it spreads. Like that net- the New York network is incredible.
- TCTucker Carlson
It is.
- LFLex Fridman
But Moscow, for different, in different, under different metrics, results of a capitalist system, and you actually said that you don't think US is quite a capitalist system, which is an interesting question in itself.
- 1:00:48 – 1:07:03
Freedom of speech
- TCTucker Carlson
- LFLex Fridman
So, I think after you did the interview with Putin, you put a clip, I think on TCN, where, like, your sort of analysis afterwards.
- TCTucker Carlson
Yeah, it wasn't much of an analysis.
- LFLex Fridman
No, but what stood out to me is you were kind of talking shit about Putin a little bit.
- TCTucker Carlson
Yeah.
- LFLex Fridman
Like, you were criticizing him.
- TCTucker Carlson
Why wouldn't I?
- LFLex Fridman
It spoke to the thing that you mentioned, which is you weren't, you weren't, uh, afraid. Now, the question I wanna ask is-... it would be pretty badass if you went to the supermarket and made the point you were making, but also criticized Putin, right? Criticize that there is a lack of a freedom of speech and freedom of the press and-
- TCTucker Carlson
In the supermarket? (laughs)
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs) Yes.
- TCTucker Carlson
Oh, oh, you mean, if I also said that? Well, yeah, I mean, I, of course, I think that I'm not... So, I guess part of it is that I'm a little, because I have such a low opinion of the commentariat in the United States and the, and the news organizations, which really do just work for the US government. I mean, I really see them as I did Izvestia and Pravda in the '80s, like they're just organs of the government, and I think they're contemptible. And I think the people who work there are contemptible. And I say that as someone who knows them really well personally. I think they're disgusting. Um, that I, I'm a little bit cut off, kind of, from what people are saying about me 'cause I'm not interested, but, um, so I try not to be defensive, like, "See, I'm not a tool of Putin." But the idea that I'd be flacking for Putin when, you know, my relatives fought in the Revolutionary War, like I'm as American as you could be, um, is like crazy to me. Anne Applebaum calls me a traitor to my... Okay, right. It's just like so dumb. I, uh, but no, of course, they don't have fr- no country has freedom of speech other than us. Canada doesn't have it. Great Britain definitely doesn't have it. France, Netherlands, these are countries I spend a lot of time in. And Russia certainly doesn't have it. So that's why I don't live there. I'm just saying our sanctions don't work. That's all I was saying. And we don't have to live like animals. We can live with dignity. Even the Russians can do it. That's kind of what I was saying. Even the Russians under Vladimir freaking Putin can live like this. And no, it's not a feature of dictatorship. That's the most, I think, discouraging and most dishonest line by people like Jon Stewart who really are trying to prepare the population for accepting a lot less. He is really a tool of the regime in a sinister way, always has been. Um, like, "How dare you expect that? What are you, a Stalinist?" It's like, "No, I'm an American. I'm like a decent person. I just wanna be able to walk to the grocery store without being murdered. Is that too much to ask?" "Shut up then you don't believe in freedom!" It's really dark if you think about it, you know?
- LFLex Fridman
So there is a fundamental way which you wanted Americans to expect more?
- TCTucker Carlson
You don't have to live like this. We don't have to live like this. You don't have to accept it. You don't. And everyone's afraid in this country they're gonna be shut down by the tech oligarchs or have the FBI show up at their houses or go to jail, and people are legit afraid of that in the United States. And my feeling is, "So?" Like, show a little courage, like, what is it worth to you for your grandchildren to live in a free prosperous country? It should be worth more than your comfort. That's how I feel.
- LFLex Fridman
We should make clear that, you know, by many measures, you look at the World Press Freedom Index, you're right, US is not at the top nor, Norway is. US is, score is 71, same as-
- TCTucker Carlson
(laughing) Norway is.
- LFLex Fridman
... Gambia-
- TCTucker Carlson
Really?
- LFLex Fridman
... in West Africa.
- TCTucker Carlson
So let me just ask-
- LFLex Fridman
Hold, hold, hold on a second, hold on a second, hold on a second.
- TCTucker Carlson
(laughs) Now you're making me laugh.
- LFLex Fridman
Ukraine is 61 and Russia is 35. The lower it is, the worse. Close to China at 23 and North Korea at the very bottom, 22.
- TCTucker Carlson
A- I think, didn't, didn't Ukraine put Gonzalo Lira in jail till he died for criticizing the government? How can they have a high press?
- LFLex Fridman
Yes, that's why they're 61 out of zero to 100.
- TCTucker Carlson
But I'm saying, look, I, I don't know what the criteria are they're using to arrive at that. Uh, but I know press freedom when I see it, I try to practice it, which is saying what you think is true, correcting yourself when you've been shown to be wrong, as I have many times, um, being as honest as you can be all the time and not being afraid. And those are wholly absent in my country, wholly absent. People are afraid in the news business, I would know, since I spent my life working there, and they're afraid to tell the truth. They're under an enormous amount of pressure, and a lot of them have little kids and mortgages, I've been there. So I have sympathy, but they go along with things, like you would, you are not allowed, if you stand up at any cable channel, any cable channel in the United States and say, "Wait a second. How did the Ukrainian government throw a US citizen into prison until he died for criticizing the Ukrainian government and we're paying for that?" That's what's, that's why it's offensive to me, we're paying for it. And that happens all the time around the world, of course. But this is a US citizen and we're paying the pensions of Ukrainian bureaucrats, like we, we are the Ukrainian government at this point. And like, if you said that on TV, on any channel, well, you, you know, you'd lose your job for that.
- LFLex Fridman
Right.
- TCTucker Carlson
So like, that's not, I don't care, or Norway is at the top. Really, Norway? If I went on N- Norwegian television and said NATO blew up Nord Stream, which it did, NATO blew up Nord Stream. The United States government, with, uh, the help of other governments, blew up, committed the largest act of industrial terrorism in history, and by the way, the largest environmental crime, the largest emission of CO2, methane. Could I keep my job? No. So how is that a free press?
- LFLex Fridman
Well, we don't know that. I mean, the whole point of saying that-
- TCTucker Carlson
In Norway?
- LFLex Fridman
Yes.
- 1:07:03 – 1:19:48
Jon Stewart
- TCTucker Carlson
- LFLex Fridman
You mentioned Jon Stewart. The two of you have a bit of a history. I don't know if you've seen it, but he kind of grilled your supermarket and Subway videos. Ha- have you got a chance to see it?
- TCTucker Carlson
I haven't seen it. Um, but someone characterized it to me, which is why I pivoted against it earlier in our conversation about how the price of freedom is living in-... filth and chaos.
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah, that was essentially it. So in 2004, that's 20 years ago, uh, Jon Stewart appeared on Crossfire, a show he hosted, and that was kind of a memorable moment. Can you, uh, tell the saga of that as you remember it?
- TCTucker Carlson
I mean, for me, you know, as I was saying to you before about how it takes a long time to digest and process and understand what happens to you, or at least it does for me, I didn't understand that as a particularly significant moment while it was happening. I just got off a plane from Hawaii. I mean, I was out of it, as usual. And I was very literal, as usual. Um, and so from my perspective, his criticism of me, to the extent I remember it, was that I was a partisan. Well, he had two criticisms, one, that Crossfire was stupid, which it certainly was. In fact, I'd already given my notice and I was moving on to another company by that point. Um, Crossfire was, was stupid. Crossfire didn't help. Crossfire framed everything as Republican versus Democrat-
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- TCTucker Carlson
... um, whatever. It was not helpful to the public discourse. I couldn't agree more, and that's why I left. So that was part of his critique. Fair. I'm not sure I would have admitted it at the time 'cause I worked there, and it's real hard to admit you're engaged in an enterprise that's, like, fundamentally worthless, which it was. But, uh, but his other point was that I was somehow a partisan or a mindless partisan, which is definitely not true. I mean, it is true of him, he is a mindless partisan. Uh, but I am not, and I haven't been for a l- I really haven't been since I got back from Baghdad at the beginning of the Iraq War, and I realized that the Republican Party, which I'd voted for, you know, my whole life to that point and had supported in general, um, was, like, pushing this really horrible thing that was gonna hurt the United States, which, in time, it, it really did. The Iraq War really hurt the United States. And I realized that I had been on the wrong side of that. I said so publicly immediately from Baghdad, I said that to The New York Times, and I really meant it. I mean it now. And so to call me partisan, uh, you can call me stupid, you can call me wrong, I certainly have been wrong, but partisan, w- I just didn't think it was a meaningful... I mean, it's like, that's just not true. It's the opposite of true. So, I didn't really take it seriously at all, and, um, I, uh, and I never thought much of him, so I was like, "Whatever, some buffoon jumping around on my show grandstanding." Um, but I do think it was recorded... And by the way, that happened right at the moment that YouTube began.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- TCTucker Carlson
I think that was one of the first big YouTube vid- It was one of the first big YouTube videos. So it, it had a virality that... if that's a word, it went everywhere, uh, in a way that didn't used to happen in cable news. I mean, by that point I had... That was 20 years ago, as you point out, I've been in cable news for nine years. So in the... Before 2004, we would say something on television and then it would kind of, it would be lost. Like people could claim they heard it, but you'd have to go to the, I think the University of Tennessee at Knoxville archives to get it. Suddenly, everything we said would live forever on the internet, which is good, by the way. That's not bad, but it was a big change for me and I just couldn't believe how widely that was discussed at the time 'cause I thought he was not a, an interesting person. I think he's v- he's obviously a very unhappy person. Um, I just didn't take him seriously then and, uh, and I don't now. But, uh, so anyway, that was it. It was a smaller thing in my life at the time than other people imagined (laughs) .
- LFLex Fridman
Okay. You said a lot of words that will make it sound like you're a bit bitter, even if you're not. So y- you said unhappy person, partisan person.
- TCTucker Carlson
Well, I think he's an unhappy guy. Well, he's definitely partisan, for sure.
- LFLex Fridman
So can you elaborate why you think he's partisan?
- TCTucker Carlson
Well, so I think that, and I see this a lot, not only on the left, but people who believe that whatever political debate they're engaged in is the most important debate in the world, and so they bring an emotional intensity to those debates and they're inevitably disappointed because no, no eternal question is solved politically. So, they're kind of on the wrong path, right? And they're doomed to frustration, um, if they believe that, and many do. He certainly does, that whatever the issue is is so, you know, "Clarence Thomas should not be a Supreme Court justice!" And the implication is, well, if someone else is Supreme Court Justice, we'll live in a fair and happy society, but that's just not... It's a false promise. So I think that people who bring that level of intensity to politics are by definition bitter, by definition disappointed, bitter in the way that disappointed people are, and that the real questions are like, what happens when you die, and how do the people around you feel about you? You know, those are, those are not the only questions in life, but they're certainly the most important ones.
- LFLex Fridman
Mm-hmm.
- TCTucker Carlson
And if we're spending a disproportionate amount of time on who gets elected to some office, not that it's irrelevant, it is relevant, but it's not the eternal question. And so I feel like he's not the only kind of bitter, silly person in Washington or in its, in its orbit. There are many, and a lot of them are Republican, so. Um, but I just thought it was ironic. I mean, everything is ironic to me, but like being called a Russia sympathizer by a guy who calls himself Boris (laughs) , you know, like that just made me laugh (laughs) . No one else has ever laughed at that. Boris Johnson's real name is not Boris, as you know. He calls himself Boris. It's his middle name. Um, and so like if you call yourself Boris, you don't really have standing to attack anyone else as a Russia defender, right? That's my... I think that's funny. No one else, as I noted, does. But um-
- LFLex Fridman
(laughs)
- TCTucker Carlson
But Jon Stewart, like-
- LFLex Fridman
Yeah.
- TCTucker Carlson
... you know, if y- if he... There are a lot of things you could say about me, but he's much more partisan than I am. So to call me a partisan is like (laughs) , "What?"
- LFLex Fridman
He would probably say that he's not a partisan, that he's a comedian who's looking for the humor in the absurdity of the system on both sides.
- TCTucker Carlson
That's a dead on... He's a dead ser- he's a very serious person. And this, I will say this, and he shares this quality with a lot of comedians, I know a lot of comedians. I know a cross-section of people just having done this job for a long time, and uh, a lot of them are very serious, like about-... their views, and they're- they have a lot of emotional intensity. And he certainly is in that category. He's not, that's- that's like the silliest thing. Yeah, he's a comedian for sure. He can be very funny, for sure. He has talent, no doubt about it. I've never denied that. But he is, he's motivated by, um, by his moral views. You know, this is right, that is wrong. And- and I just think it's- it's a misapplied passion.
- LFLex Fridman
What, do you think I'm just a comedian is, um...
- TCTucker Carlson
I don't think any serious person thinks that. I mean, if you're just a comedian, to be... And- and I, look, I'm- I- I'm not trying to cl- claim, I couldn't claim that I haven't said a lot of dumb things. And one of the dumbest things I ever said was when he was on our set lecturing me, you know, he's- he's a moralizer, which I also just don't really care for as an aesthetic matter, but he, um, he was lecturing me about something and I said, "I thought you were here to tell jokes." Which I shouldn't have said because he wasn't there to tell jokes. He was there to- to lecture me, and I should have just engaged it directly rather than trying to diminish him by like, "You're just a little comedian." Well, he doesn't see himself that way. But I would just say this. Jon Stewart's a defender of power. Like Jon Stewart has never criticized, like what's Jon Stewart's view on, you know, the aid we've sent to Ukraine? The $100 billion or whatever. Like what happened to that money? What happened to the weapons that it bought? He doesn't care. He has the exact same priorities as the people permanently in charge in Washington. So whatever. He does- he's not alone in that. So does Mika Brzezinski and her husband and all the rest of the cast of Dummies. But if you're gonna pretend to be the guy who's giving the finger to entrench power, you should do it once in a while, and he never has. There's not one time when he said something that would be deeply unpopular on Morning Joe. That's all I'm saying. And so don't call yourself a truth teller. You're- you're a court comedian or a flatterer of power. Okay, that's fine, there's a role for that. But don't pretend to be something else.
Episode duration: 3:04:21
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