Volodymyr Zelenskyy: Ukraine, War, Peace, Putin, Trump, NATO, and Freedom | Lex Fridman Podcast #456

1. 0:00 – 3:29

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      I hope the Kyiv airport will open soon. Then it will... It will be easier to fly in.

   2. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy0:05

      Yes. I think that the war will end and President Trump may be the first leader to travel here by airplane. I think it would be... It would be symbolic by airplane.

   3. LFLex Fridman0:16

      Again, January 25th, around that date, right?

   4. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy0:19

      (laughs)

   5. LFLex Fridman0:19

      Flying in-

   6. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy0:20

      Oh.

   7. LFLex Fridman0:20

      ... meeting me at Air Force One.

   8. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy0:21

      That would be cool.

   9. LFLex Fridman0:23

      There is a perception of corruption. Uh, people like Donald Trump and Elon Musk really care, uh, about fighting corruption. Uh, what can you say to them to gain their trust that the money is going towards this fight for freedom, towards the war effort?

   10. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy0:41

       In most cases, we did not receive money, we received weapons. And where we saw risks, that something could be happening with weapons, we cracked down hard on everyone. And believe me, this is not only about Ukraine. Everywhere along the supply chain, there are some or other people and companies who wanna make money, they try to make money on the war. We did not profit from the war. If we caught someone, believe me, we cracked down hard on them. And, and we did that, we did that, and we will continue to do so because, because to this day, when someone says that Ukraine was selling weapons, and by the way, Russia was the one pushing this narrative, we always responded, "Our soldiers would kill such people with their own hands without any trial." Do you honestly think anyone could steal weapons by the truckload when we ourselves don't have enough on the front lines? And yet we have to provide proof to defend ourselves because when there's an abundance of such misinformation, distrust starts to grow. And you're right. People listen to various media outlets, see this, and lose faith in you. In the end, you lose trust, and with it, you lose support. Therefore, believe me, we are fighting more against disinformation than against particular cases. Although I still emphasize once again, at the everyday level, such things are still important. We catch these, these people, and we fight them. As if Putin wants to sit down and talk, but Ukraine does not. This is not true.

   11. LFLex Fridman2:31

       I think that, yes, he is in fact ready to talk.

   12. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy2:35

       Did you talk to him?

   13. LFLex Fridman2:36

       On the phone or what?

   14. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy2:38

       How do you normally talk to him?

   15. LFLex Fridman2:39

       I don't know. Normally by the sea. The same as with you. He invites you to the sea with me, just the three of us.

   16. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy2:46

       No, no, one of us may drown.

   17. LFLex Fridman2:48

       Who? Are you good at swimming?

   18. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy2:49

       Yes, I am a good swimmer.

   19. LFLex Fridman2:50

       You're a good swimmer. Well, if you think that the president of a country is completely crazy, it is really hard to come to an agreement with him. You have to look at him as a serious person who loves his country and loves the people in his country, and he conducts, yes, destructive military action.

   20. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy3:10

       Who are you? Who are you talking about now? Who loves his country?

   21. LFLex Fridman3:12

       Putin. Do you think he doesn't love his country?

   22. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy3:16

       (laughs) No. What is his country? He happened to consider Ukraine his country. What is his country?

   23. LFLex Fridman3:23

       When do you think there will be presidential el- elections in Ukraine?

2. 3:29 – 13:55

   Introductory words from Lex

   1. LFLex Fridman3:29

      The following is a conversation with Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the President of Ukraine. It was an intense, raw, and heartfelt conversation, my goal for which was to understand and to do all I can to push for peace. Please allow me to say a few words, first about language, then about the President, and finally about history. Please skip ahead straight to our conversation if you like. We spoke in a mix of languages, continuously switching from Ukrainian to Russian to English. So, uh, the interpreter was barely hanging on. It was indeed in many ways a wild ride of a conversation. As the President said, "The first of many." Language, like many other things in a time of war, is a big deal. We had a choice, speak in Russian, Ukrainian or English. The President does speak some English but he's far from fluent in it, and I sadly don't speak Ukrainian yet. So Russian is the only common language we're both fluent in. In case you don't know, the Russian language is one that the President speaks fluently and was his primary language for most of his life. It's the language I also speak fluently to the degree I speak any language fluently, as does a large fraction of the Ukrainian population. So the most dynamic and powerful conversation between us would be in Russian without an interpreter who, in this case, added about two to three-second delay and frankly translated partially and poorly, for me at least, taking away my ability to feel the humor, the wit, the brilliance, the pain, the anger, the humanity of the person sitting before me that I could clearly feel when he was speaking fluently in the language I understand, Russian. But all that said, war changes everything. The Ukrainian language has become a symbol of the Ukrainian people's fight for freedom and independence. So we had a difficult choice of three languages, and faced with that choice we said yes to all three to the, uh, consternation and dismay of the translators. We make captions and, uh, voiceover audio tracks available in English, Ukrainian and Russian so you can listen either to a version that is all one language or to the original mixed-language version with subtitles in your preferred language. The default is English overdub.On YouTube, you can switch between language audio tracks by clicking the settings gear icon, then clicking audio track, and then selecting the language you prefer, English, Ukrainian, Russian. To listen to the original mixed language version, please select the English UK audio track. Big thank you to 11 Labs for their help with overdubbing using a mix of AI and humans. We will continue to explore how to break down the barriers that language creates with AI and otherwise. This is a difficult but important endeavor. Language, after all, is much more than a cold sequence of facts and logic statements. There are words when spoken in the right sequence and at the right time that can shake the world and turn the tides of history, that can start and end wars. Great leaders can find those words, and great translators can help these words reverberate to the outskirts of a divided civilization. On another note, let me say that President Zelenskyy is a truly remarkable person, and a historic figure. I say this as somebody who deeply understands the geopolitical complexity and history of the region. I am from this region. My parents were both born in Ukraine, Kiev and Kharkiv, both my grandfathers too. I was born in Tajikistan and lived for a time there, then in Kiev, then Moscow, then United States. And while I am now for almost 30 years, and to the day I die, I am a proud American, my family roots go deep in the soil of nations that comprised the Soviet Union, including Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, and Tajikistan. I've gotten to know and have spoken for hours with members of the president's team and people close to him. I spoke to hundreds of Ukrainians since 2022, including soldiers, civilians, politicians, artists, religious leaders, journalists, economists, historians, and technologists. I listened to hundreds of hours of programs that both support and criticize the president, in Ukraine, in Russia, in the United States. I've read countless books about this war, and the long arc of history that led up to it. If forced to recommend two, at this moment, I would say The Russo-Ukrainian War by Serhii Plokhii, and The Showman by Simon & Schuster, which is a, a good personal behind the scenes biography of the president, focused on 2022. But there are many, many more. This is why I can comfortably say that he is a truly singular and remarkable human being. It was an honor and pleasure to talk with him, on and off the mic. Now, it is true that I plan to travel to Moscow and to speak with President Vladimir Putin. And I hope to be back in Kiev as well. As President Zelenskyy said, this was our first of many more meetings. In all these cases, I seek to do my small part in pushing for peace. And in doing all this, I'm deeply grateful for the trust people have given me, on all sides. For the people attacking me, sometimes lying about me, for the critics in the stands chanting the latest slogans of the mass hysteria machine like the sheep in Animal Farm, I love you too. And I assure you that drawing lines between good and evil on a world map is much easier than seeing that line between good and evil in every human being, including you and me. This is what I try to do. I'm simply a human being who seeks to find and surface the humanity in others. And, as I've said, no amount of money, fame, power, access, can buy my opinion or my integrity. Now, finally, please allow me to briefly overview some history to give background for several topics that President Zelenskyy references in this conversation. I recommend my conversation with Serhii Plokhii and many others about the history of the region. But here, let me start with 1991, when Ukraine declared its independence, and the Soviet Union collapsed. From this point on, Russia-Ukraine relations were defined in large part by whether Ukraine aligned more with Russia or with the West, meaning Europe, United States, NATO, and so on. In 2004, with the Orange Revolution, a pro-Western candidate, Viktor Yushchenko, became president. In 2010, it went the other way, a pro-Russia candidate, Viktor Yanukovych, became president. The internal tensions grew, and in 2013, Euromaidan protests broke out over Yanukovych's decision to suspend talks with the European Union in favor of closer ties with Russia. This set forward a chain of important events in 2014. On the politics front, Yanukovych was ousted and fled to Russia, leading to the election of a pro-Western president. Also in 2014, on the war front, Russia annexed Crimea and war broke out in the Donbas region of Eastern Ukraine, which eventually killed over 14,000 people and continued all the way to 2022 when, on February 24th, 2022, Russian forces initiated a full-scale invasion of Ukraine. This is when the world started to really pay attention.Now, some history of peace talks. Volodymyr Zelenskyy won the presidency in 2019, and he discusses in this conversation the ceasefire agreements he made with Vladimir Putin in 2019, which was one of many attempts at peace from the two Minsk agreements in 2014 and '15 to a series of ceasefire agreements in 2018, '19, and '20, all of which failed in part or in whole. All this shows just how difficult ceasefire and peace negotiations are, but they are not impossible. It is always worth trying over and over again to find the path to peace. I believe that Presidents Zelenskyy, Putin, and Trump should meet soon after January 20th this year and give everything they got to negotiate a ceasefire and security guarantees that pave the way for a long-lasting peace. We discussed several ideas for this in this conversation. As I said, this was one of my main goals here, to push for peace. This trip to Kiev and this conversation was a truly special moment for me in my life. It is one I will never forget. So to reflect, I say a few more words and answer some questions at the very end, if you'd like to listen. But here, let me say thank you to everyone for your support over the years. It means the world. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. And now, dear friends, here's the president of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelenskyy.

3. 13:55 – 23:44

   Language

   1. LFLex Fridman13:55

      If we can explain why the Ukrainian language is very important, our conversation will be most effective and impactful if we speak in Russian.

   2. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy14:01

      I speak Russian perfectly, of course, and I understand everything you are talking about. However, I can't respond in Russian the entire interview. Uh, it's because this is how it is today. I am not making anything up. You can see it all for yourself. You can feel and hear it. Today, there were 73 missile attacks against us, and people were killed. There were over 100 drones today, and this is a daily occurrence. The people who attack us, they speak Russian. They attack people who were only recently told that this was actually in defense of Russian-speaking people, and this is why I respect ne- neither the leader or director of today's Russia, nor the people. I just... That's it. And I, I don't think that you can just, uh, can just pretend that nothing's happening and give Putin a pass once again for saying that we are one people, that we speak one language, et cetera. They speak the language of weapons, that is a fact, and we are peaceful people, peaceful people who want to protect themselves and defend their freedom and their human choice. You know, at the beginning of the war, I addressed Russians in Russian. Zero effect. They're mute. They, they do not listen. They did not listen. Some are afraid, some have other issues, they have different reasons. It's like when a person is drowning, drowning, and people walk by because they can't hear them, and someone walks on by crying, afraid to save them. It doesn't change anything for the one drowning. They need someone to help them. This is why I honestly despise these people, as they are deaf. They, they began the occupation in the supposed defense of the Russian language, and that's why, with all due respect, I would like to give an interview in Ukrainian. This is very... This is very important to me. If there are some points that you want me to explain in Russian, I can certainly do that. I can certainly occasionally speak Russian. But in general, in general, no. I'm not sure that, that you will understand me completely, despite your Ukrainian roots. You are a citizen of the United States, right?

   3. LFLex Fridman16:39

      Yes.

   4. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy16:41

      That's why I'm surprised that you don't understand. Well, it was a long time ago, I understand that it was a long time ago. Moreover, um, hmm, a lot has changed. A lot has changed.

   5. LFLex Fridman16:58

      If I may please allow me to say this in Russian, yes, many things have changed, but I have hope. I hope that today many Russians will hear this, that Vladimir Putin will hear this, that the American president, Donald Trump, and the American people will hear this, that everyone will hear this. And yes, Ukrainian language is important symbolically, but what is also important is that we understand each other well.

   6. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy17:24

      For Donald Trump? Is it important for Donald Trump-

   7. LFLex Fridman17:27

      Yes.

   8. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy17:27

      ... whether I speak Russian or not?

   9. LFLex Fridman17:29

      Yes, yes, because unfortunately, and it hurts to admit, but I cannot speak or understand Ukrainian yet. So your, your wit, dynamism, and your humanity will not come through as well and as quickly. Remember, I need to wait for two to three seconds to hear it. You have a great sense of humor, great stories. With an interpreter translating, I simply won't see this, but I understand that it's painful. Another reason is that I hoped we could show that even though it is sometimes said that Russian is banned in Ukraine-

   10. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy18:03

       This is not true. I'm speaking Russian now, right? We have people who speak Russian. This is not true, really, it's not. It's really not true. We disrespect Russian now because of Russians. That's all. When they were saving Russian speakers, they...... killed Russian-speakers, many people who actually, uh, many of whom are in the east, right? In the east, they live, lived in the east. They destroyed their houses, destroyed their lives. It's not a rhetorical thing, it's not all talk and blah, blah, blah. I don't have time for blah, blah, blah. Yes, so it's, uh, very, uh, very, very important and sensitive moment. The message is that we are not one nation, we are not, you know, the- the same country. We're different countries. Yes, different countries. And I think what is most important is what we're talking about, not how. We're speaking about, this is what I think, you're a smart guy, so you have a lot of experience in dialogue of this kind. That's why I think you will, you will understand me. Yeah. I... Anyway, I think it is far better for Donald Trump to hear my English, not my Russian.

   11. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)19:21

       Your English is much better than my Ukrainian.

   12. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy19:24

       (laughs) .

   13. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)19:24

       You're getting better and better every-

   14. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy19:25

       That's true. I'm a very honest guy, that's why I will be very honest with you.

   15. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)19:30

       Okay. (laughs)

   16. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy19:31

       Your Ukrainian is not very good, but we will, but we will work on it.

   17. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)19:35

       (laughs) Yes. I have many flaws, that's one of them.

   18. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy19:38

       Sometimes I can speak English. Sometimes, as I understand, we can be very flexible, right?

   19. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)19:44

       Very flexible. Spanish, Swahili.

   20. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy19:48

       Yeah, you see?

   21. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)19:48

       Yeah.

   22. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy19:49

       We are very flexible.

   23. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)19:49

       Javier Marley needs to understand us, so...

   24. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy19:51

       By the way, Javier understood me without any words.

   25. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)19:55

       The language of love-

   26. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy19:56

       Yeah. (laughs)

   27. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)19:56

       ... maybe.

   28. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy19:57

       Of respect.

   29. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)19:58

       Respect.

   30. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy19:58

       I respect him.
4. 23:44 – 40:32

   World War II

   1. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)23:44

      if we can go- go back many years, World War II. Tell me the story of your grandfather, who fought in World War II.

   2. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy23:52

      My grandfather, he, he graduated from the military, military academy. And from the very beginning of the war, he went to fight. He was in the infantry, and he fought through the entire war. He had many wounds. As they used to say back then, his chest is covered in medals. And it's true. He had more than 30. Uh, yes, more than 30. He was the kind of man, he was such, mm, he was such a serious man.... I loved him very much, um, and we had a very close relationship. Um, he didn't like to tell details about the war. He never, he never boasted. Although, I asked him, as a boy would, "How many fascists did you kill?" He never talked about it. He believed that the war was a great, a great tragedy, uh, a tragedy for everyone. And, uh, Ukraine was occupied and it was a tragedy for Ukraine, a tragedy for Europe, and a tragedy for the Jewish people. His own brothers, his entire family, were executed. They were tortured by fascists who had occupied Ukraine and their village. His father was the head of the village and he was killed. They were shot. It was a mass, a mass grave, right? Yes. It was a communal burial. Some of them were killed outright and others were... They were buried alive. His four brothers, they all went to war. As soon as the war began, they were all there. Um, he was the only one who had a military education, and they all died in the war. He was the only who came back. He had nobody. He came back and he found, found my, uh, grandmother, his future wife, and she was... She managed... What was it called then? I don't know, they don't have them anymore. It was a childcare facility, an orphanage so to speak. A place where orphans lived. Children who, who don't have parents. Children of war. And she managed this childcare facility with difficult children, as they used to call them. Difficult children who went through the war, who saw their parents killed. And this is how they met, because, um, these difficult children, they, well, sometimes behaved differently. They could steal something, do something bad. There were, um, many, many children in the orphanage. Yes. That's how she met my grandfather, and I loved him very much, and I think that my grandfather frankly would never have believed that this war is possible. He would never have believed it, because he worked in the police after the war. He was a colonel. He worked in, uh, criminal investigation all his life, so he fought with, um, bandits all his life after the Second World War. But also, I believe he fought for justice all his life. And we all lived in one apartment, and even after his death, I lived with both of my grandmothers and my parents. Two grandmothers, who both lost their husbands. Both of them died. Well, it was an ordinary family. An ordinary family that lived like everyone lived back then in the Soviet Union, and even after the Soviets in the 90s. We lived in one apartment all together. What else is there to say? But I think the most important thing, was values, respect. They gave me an education. My parents gave me an education. No one left me money or apartments, so I didn't inherit anything material. But I believe that our real inheritance is here in our minds and in our hearts. I believe that. (laughs)

   3. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)28:55

      (laughs)

   4. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy28:55

      Understood.

   5. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)28:55

      There's a one second delay.

   6. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy28:57

      Yeah, I have.

   7. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)28:57

      So, if, uh... I'm sorry if you-

   8. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy28:59

      It's fine.

   9. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)28:59

      ... tell a joke, I will laugh about one, two, or three seconds later. (inhales deeply) There's a delay. So, a ordinary family, but not an ordinary time, uh, World War II. World War II. Speaking of mass graves, I was at Babyn Yar yesterday. A large part of my family died there. In moments like this, such a place serves as a stark reminder of the profound historical gravity of the Second World War. I remember... I remember this song from my youth. On June 22nd at 4 o'clock, Kiev was bombed and the war began. I always wondered how it would feel to live in a moment when, when everything changed. The path of humanity completely shifts in a single moment, just like that. Uh, what do you think... What do you think about that moment in 1941? Now, after the 2022 invasion, how do you perceive the Second World War after you have witnessed all of it?

   10. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy30:02

       Well, um... Well, firstly, the war actually started earlier. It started here in Ukraine. Kiev was bombed, as you quoted, but the war had already begun before that. And I think I perceived it, um, as a start of the full-scale invasion. Well, I think-It's hard. It's hard to understand why nobody wants to listen, look at, and analyze history. War, the rise of fascism and Nazism, the emergence of Hitler, Goebbels, and their entire team. At the time, this wasn't just about one party or even one country. It was, um, essentially a wave, a wave of hatred, a wave of one race, um, one race above the rest. They were, in fact, constructing and ultimately implemented a theory around this idea, later seizing Europe. Um, they created a theory of one nation, one race, one world. Their world. Of course, this idea is absolutely senseless, but it has become radicalized over the years and even gained support. A vision of one world, and in principle, the so-called Russian world, the ideology Putin promotes and imposes, it wasn't originally like that. He was a different person back then, or maybe he was always like this, but his rhetoric was different. At the beginning, remember, he talked about the EU and even about Russia's future being tied to NATO. There were even talks of joining the European Union, NATO. He spoke about shared values with the West. That's how it all sounded back then. And we must also look at Hitler, who was seriously, um, before the radical idea of taking over the whole world, he actually made certain steps, and everyone believed he was helping the economy. And to be fair, he did take some steps in that direction, but he was a terrifying person. None of those actions justify him, nor do they excuse his actions, and that's why we cannot look at the Second World War as if it started in 1939. It didn't begin in 1941 either. We need to draw conclusions. When did it start? With the weaknesses of the world. The division of European states, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, all of this happened before 1941. People who were more informed, those who dug deeper, whether they were politicians or not, whether they were from different walks of life, bis- including business, which was different back then, were speaking about all of this. Hitler won't stop. There'll be a world war. Hitler will destroy nations. Nations. And that's what happened. Someone looked the other way. What I told you about, Europe was sinking then. I gave you an example of it, but the whole world looked the other way and didn't pay attention and said, "No, we can negotiate with him. I'm telling you, he is okay. We can negotiate with him. He's just more right-leaning." Or it does not matter what they said, "He's just, he's just pro, very pro-nationalist." This is all nonsense, and this is not the first time, and Hitler isn't the first such case in history. We're dealing with a person who is allowed to stick to this desire to destroy. He was consumed by it and enjoying it. And what happened to Hitler? Now, what about Putin? This invasion was also at 4:00 in the morning, around 4:00 in the morning. There were missile strikes on Ukraine. This is the same. I believe that intentions are also the same, but more on that later. By the way, you tell me if this is too long, you, you, you can stop me.

   11. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)34:53

       Never long enough. It's beautiful.

   12. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy34:55

       Okay.

   13. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)34:55

       It's...

   14. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy34:55

       So, it happened here around 4:00 in the morning. I... Before this, I must honestly say, everyone said something, predicted something, etcetera, but I asked only for one thing, primarily from the United States, if you are sure, if you have the evidence, if you talk to him and he tells you that there'll be an invasion, if all this scares you. I only asked for two things, send us weapons, or better yet, strengthen us with preventive measures so there would be no war. It wasn't the weapons that I was asking for. I asked for sanctions. Intimidate him. Please don't say that if he comes, if he crosses borders, if he kills, we're imposing sanctions. Well, this is complete bullshit. Sorry, but really?

   15. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)35:53

       Oh, I understand this.

   16. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy35:54

       Oh, wonderful. Yes. (laughs)

   17. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)35:55

       I understood one word. (laughs)

   18. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy35:57

       Yeah. Eh.

   19. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)36:00

       So they did not help.

   20. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy36:03

       I believe that no, and this is a fact. We didn't receive help. If we assume that words are help, well, then yes, we received a lot of it, because there were plenty of words. Even more than plenty, yes? At 4:00 in the morning, there were strikes. Morally, is it possible to prepare for war? No, it doesn't happen like you read in books, see in movies, and so on. What happens to you? I was just...... looking at my wife and children. My children were asleep, but my wife was awake. There were strikes, missile strikes. We heard them. (pause of four seconds) To you, as a living person, uh, you know, "How can this be?" You just can't fully believe this. You just don't u- th- th- understand. Why now? Given everything that happened in World War II when, uh, when millions of people died? None of it mattered. Still at 4:00, at 4:00 in the morning, around 4:00, 3:40, 3:45. Remember? Around this time? Yes, there were missile strikes. And later, by the way, a few days after, after the first days of the war, I spoke with Lukashenko on the phone. And he apologized, and he said that it was not me. Missiles were launched from my territory, and Putin was the one launching them. These are his words. I have witnesses. "And I apologize," he said, "but believe me..." That's what he told me, "Volodymyr, this is not me. I'm not in charge." He told me, "I'm not in charge. These are just missiles. This is Putin." I told him, "Don't do that." "This was done without me." That's it. He just on the phone, I remember this conversation. I told him that I believed... I told him, "You are a murderer too. I'm just saying." And he told me, "You must understand. You can't fight the Russians." I told him that we never fought them. I said, "It's war. The missiles came from your land, from Belarus. How did you allow this?" Then he replied, "All right, retaliate then." I still remember him telling me, "Hit the refinery." You know how much I care about it. Moser Oil Refinery? Is that it? Can't recall. Moser Oil Refinery. I told him, "What are you on about? What retaliation?"

   21. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)39:00

       Forgive me, Volodymyr.

   22. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy39:02

       Yes.

   23. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)39:02

       Yes.

   24. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy39:02

       Yes.

   25. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)39:03

       This, this was at 5:00 in the morning?

   26. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy39:06

       No, no, no. This was during the first, or maybe the second day. Second or third day of the war.

   27. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)39:10

       Ah.

   28. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy39:10

       Yes.

   29. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)39:11

       I see.

   30. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy39:11

       Well, after that, I went back home. I was home with my children, with my wife. I just went to my wife very quickly that night at four o'clock. Yes, and just told her, "Get the children. Get ready. You'll probably need to go to my office very soon." And I left. That's it. At this moment, you're, you're no longer a father. Mm, what happened to me, unfortunately, because I believe that this is... And not only do I believe, I understand, especially now that all of this is the most important thing, because your country is your family. It's... The strength is in your family, and this is the most important thing, and I'm the president. And therefore, I had to stop being a father in my own family, and my wife had to do everything. She had to do everything regarding children, regarding safety. And, and I had to deal with the state because I'm the president and this is my duty. And I, by the way, am, um, um, taking this very seriously. I went to the office, and here we are now. You're very welcome.
5. 40:32 – 47:07

   Invasion on Feb 24, 2022

   1. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)40:32

      on February 24th, 2022, everything changed again, just like in June 1941. Uh, everything changed, and, uh, history took a turn. The history of humanity took a turn. And for you, too. W- you were the president. Uh, you were, you were talking about fighting corruption, about the country's freedom, about interesting and innovative reforms, but that morning of February 22nd, everything changed. Could you tell me about that morning, the details of your actions? When you had to quickly make difficult decisions, uh, w- what was the process for you? How did you make these decisions? Did you discuss them with people you trust to understand how to respond to this invasion in every technical, political, and military aspect? What was the process for you? How did you make the decision?

   2. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy41:35

      According to our legislation, in principle, I'm l- I'm, I'm the Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, so I had to give corresponding orders. Yes, I have a military office, and then later, there was a military headquarters where all key people gathered. This is not only about the military, it's about energy, et cetera, all key things. But at that moment, I made the decisions quickly and without a doubt. And, and I cannot say that I am just that kind of person. I'm just a living person who believed that if help is needed right now, to, to help, to help evacuate people, help with children. Several cities were blocked. I was only thinking about how to deliver food there within, within a day. We did a lot of things. Although, we understood that, that they, in fact, occupied part of our state and i-We distributed weapons to people. That's how it was. Trucks came and simply distributed weapons to people so that they could defend the capital, to ordinary people, just on the street, to ordinary people who, who understood that if the Russians enter the city, then we would have the same thing that's happening in other cities, per the information we received. Um, thanks to digitalization, by the way, we had very good digitalization before this, and we preserved a lot and even when they were surrounding certain cities, a lot of things still worked. The banking system, the internet, we had television, and thanks to this, I made several decisions to ensure that people are united and have all the information. Um, Russia is very good at spreading large-scale disinformation. Fortunately, I, I have, uh, two decades of experience, two decades of experience managing a production studio, TV channels, and large media resources. I understood that we needed, uh, to build an information network very quickly. Thanks to this, I began to address the people constantly. This happened several times, three to five times a day. In fact, I became that, uh, uh, an information source for people who were in cities that were cut off from other information, and it was very important for me to keep, uh, all things digital, to keep the internet, to stay in touch with everyone, with all the people. Initially, that's the contact we had, and then, uh, we also built a media platform, so, um, where we had all the news agencies, agencies of Ukraine, and this network was called Marathon. And it was also very important for the people to trust us and people had to receive information. Why? There were waves. There were waves of Russian on the first day, who said he ran away. I had to go out into the street. I left the office and went outside. I had to do this because I was showing that this was no green screen, you know, to show that it was the street, not some digital, some digital manipulation. I mean, I did these things, then I touched various objects. Now, people might think that these are small things, but I was actually showing that I was in a real place. All of this had an impact. I was absolutely sure my actions and these contacts, several contacts, and then I spoke to the Russians, I addressed Russians, I really did. And then only after that, I gathered... It was the first day when I invited, uh, all of the journalists here, wasn't it? That was on the first day, I think. Well, not here, here. To the press center in this building. I talked to journalists. I asked them not to leave because we needed weapons. At that moment, they were handing out rifles to people, and for me, journalists and media platforms were essential voices. There were, there were various journalists from different countries here, and they were essentially stuck, and I asked them for contacts, those who had access to, to Russians, Belarusians, Kazakhs who understood everything, the same information. And I, I spoke to them and I spoke to them and spoke in Russian. I told them, "You must stop Putin. This is terrible. This is horror. This is war. You must stop him, and if you stand up now, if you speak out, and if you go out into the streets..." This was very important. I spoke to them in Russian to show them that there was no problem and that all of these pretexts were, were made up.

6. 47:07 – 1:07:24

   Negotiating Peace

   1. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy47:08

      This is why it's so painful to talk about the Russian language too, because look, if a person does not want to listen, they will not listen no matter what language we speak.

   2. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)47:19

      I disagree with you here. I think and hope that many people in Russia will hear us today.

   3. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy47:27

      They blocked YouTube recently. Are you aware of this? In their country?

   4. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)47:33

      I know, and I simply guarantee that this conversation will travel fast on the internet. Everyone will hear you. They will hear you, including the president of Russia will hear you. This is why I have hope.

   5. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy47:46

      He is actually deaf, even if he speaks to you. He is deaf by his very nature. Do you understand the difference? You know, for instance, when you talk to Musk, you're talking to an innovator, a scientist about rockets. You talk about how to save on costs and how they land, and on the other hand, Putin doesn't launch rockets to save money, but to kill people. Do you think you can talk to Putin about technology? Your guys were, were interviewing him and he told them about, about tribal history. Do you understand? Imagine a Russian man in his country listening to him. You know what Musk is about? Technology, Mars, artificial intelligence, and this guy, Putin, is standing there bare-assed, pontificating about tribes. You've got to understand-You think that when you do interviews, like Mr. Tucker, who did an interview there, that, that you're about to make them friends. How could you... What does this have to do with friends? He's different. He is, he is simply different.

   6. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)49:09

      But it's still necessary.

   7. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy49:10

      A, a mammoth stands before you.

   8. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)49:13

      By the way, I must say that when you said Bear asked, it was not translated. Could the interpreter please translate?

   9. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy49:19

      This is so that you can understand.

   10. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)49:21

       Thank you. Now he explained everything to me. I understand.

   11. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy49:23

       Yeah? That's great.

   12. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)49:24

       Now I fully understand.

   13. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy49:25

       That's great.

   14. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)49:25

       Anyway, but we still need to talk.

   15. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy49:28

       One should always speak with someone who listens, and you must speak when you know that this will benefit you, bring peace and calm to the world. Not the other way around. I love President Trump's message when he speaks. I, I think that we share a position on peace through strength. That is very important. It means that if you are strong, you can speak, and we need to be strong, and Ukraine has to be strong, strong enough. Otherwise, what for? So, he... You, you know who, like, like Voldemort, who must, who must not be named, yes, he's, he's like Voldemort. He thrives, subsists, and lives on being subjectivized. Instead of isolation, he is offered to step out into the light. He's darkness personified, and you offer him, as it were, to be subjectivized. Why? There's only one reason: fear. And you say we need to talk. Listen, we need to be in a strong position and not talk, but end the war. Yes, yes, it is possible through dialogue. We're not opposed to it. T- You just need to be in a strong position to make the other person want it. Do you think he wants to end the war? That's what you suggested. I think this is naive. I'm sorry. With all due respect, it's naive to think he wants to finish the war. (laughs) It's...

   16. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)51:20

       Uh, tell you what-

   17. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy51:22

       The circumstances... Sorry for interrupting. The, the... There's something we need. I think that President Trump not only has will, he has all these possibilities, and it's not just talk. I really count on him, and I think that our people really count on him. So, he has enough power to pressure him, to pressure Putin not into wanting to stop it. No, he will not want to. To pressure him to actually stop it. That is the difference. Don't rely on his will, Putin's will to stop. You won't see it. That's what I think. Sorry.

   18. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)52:04

       No, sorry, I interrupted you first. But what I would want, I do have what some, uh, what some might call a naive dream of you sitting down with Putin and Trump and negotiating a deal about, uh, a ceasefire and together finding a path to long-term peace. And I think this requires strength, requires negotiations. There are a lot of carrots and sticks here that can be used to make a real deal. And Trump is very keen on making a deal and ready to negotiate.

   19. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy52:41

       Can I ask you a question?

   20. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)52:42

       Yeah.

   21. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy52:44

       I just really want you and I to be on the same page. Uh, it's very important to be in the same information space, extremely important. Uh, let's talk a bit about the ceasefire. Let me describe the situation to you. In December 2019, in Normandy, in Paris, at the Elysee Palace, Macron, Merkel, Putin, and I agreed on the ceasefire. The US wasn't there, and this, by the way, was a weak point of the meeting. If you'd like, we can later discuss why they weren't there. It's a security guarantee thing in general. It's Germany's position, etc. We agreed on an exchange of, uh, hostages, an all-for-all exchange. We made a deal to exchange everyone for everyone. I think you know that. And there was also a meeting that lasted many hours, a meeting where we made, we made a deal with him. Everyone was tired. It was just the two of us in the end, and I proposed a ceasefire. By the way, no one in Ukraine believed, few believed in the ceasefire, and he wanted troop withdrawal. I calculated that if there were a withdrawal of troops from the line of contact the way Russians proposed, it would take 20 years. I proved it to him just in terms of time, square kilometers, namely the length of the line of contact or delimitation line. And we agreed on what I told him, that, um, it will not work out, but, but I, I had many points because I was deeply involved in the issue. I was involved very deeply, uh, it's my thing in general. If I start doing something, I can't stand there like that guy I spoke about, with my ass out, you know? I must be dressed. (laughs) I must be prepared. I must be prepared better.... better than anyone in front of me. You do sports, right? Mm-hmm. I practiced for many years and we know what fights are like, what boxing is, what Thai boxing is. This is what I did and I loved it very much. When you step into the ring, you understand everything pretty much. Mm-hmm. And so I stepped into it and I was, I was definitely well prepared. But he wasn't. No. He was not deeply involved in the process? What border? Where is it? How long will it take to disengage troops? And why wasn't he involved? You want to know? Because he wasn't gonna do any of this. This is what confused me. If you are not deeply involved in the issue, well then, you, it's, um, it's as if you don't really need the result, that's what I think. So what happened? We agreed that there will be gas continuation, gas transit in 2019. We agreed with him, this was the security for Europe. Merkel asked me for it and this was extremely important for Germany. We agreed with him. Secondly, we agreed that, uh, for him it was just money. So secondly, we agreed on an exchange. For me, this was the most important thing. For them, gas was, for me was the people. And this is a fact, because I wanted to have a humanitarian advantage so that there would be further meetings that would lead to sustained peace. And third, ceasefire. Ceasefire you spoke about. What happened? The gas contract was signed because he needed it and, by the way, he knew everything about it. As for exchange, we took the first step and exchanged the people. Regarding the ceasefire, well, they started killing us in about a month, so I called him and I told him, "We agreed on a ceasefire, didn't we? Well, it wasn't a piece of toilet paper, was it? This is serious business." Or so it seemed. It really was serious. Merkel, Macron, you and I, we all agreed on this together. A ceasefire is important, isn't it? Not for New Year's, 'cause everyone was celebrating New Year's, and now they're offering us a Christmas ceasefire. It's all the same. A ceasefire for two, three days just to get some praise, but this isn't a performance, this isn't some kind of theater. No. This, this is about people's lives, and that's what happened. After that, I called him a few more times. I think I only had two, three calls with him in total. I asked him for a ceasefire. He told me it couldn't be. We will, we will figure it out now. People from, people from the occupied territory, Russians and separatists, they were all there together. They continued to shoot and kill our people. Yes, the front lines were quiet, but they killed people. They were killing people. And I kept calling him. I called again and again, but there was nothing, until after a few months, the Russians stopped answering the phone. We did not have any contact since. I wanted another meeting like we had in Normandy. I wanted the next meeting. I wanted to find a solution, but the Russians refused. We tried to make it happen through various European countries, and not only European, but the Russians refused. They passed along some kind of bullshit, made excuses. They didn't want it. Meanwhile, they were sending their snipers. We had evidence, living proof, even video evidence, because some of them were captured back then. Those were the snipers in training. They were training them. They were training them, and later those snipers operated in Syria and Africa. These snipers were training in our country, in the East. Ukrainians were living targets. They were shooting from the other side, killing people, women, people, children. They were shooting. It was a hunt. By the way, it was in the Russian-speaking region in the East, where according to him, everyone is speaking Russian. That's where they were shooting, where the situation currently is the most tense. They killed people. We sent this information, sent pictures. We sent them to the UN, sent them everywhere. We worked very hard, very persistently. I met with everyone. But who thought of Ukraine back then? They didn't notice it much. They didn't pay much attention to, to Crimea being illegally occupied either. And to be honest, the United States of America too, everyone was somewhat silent about this issue. That's how it was. It was, it was like that before a full-scale war. I want to ask you a question about the ceasefire. For example, in Mariupol, in Mariupol today, uh, there are American and Ukrainian journalists, and everyone will tell you, who had contact, who has contact now with Mariupol, who fled from there in the last minutes just before the occupation, or who was able to leave, to escape after the occupation.... Chernov, who won an Oscar, was among them. And the journalists that left Mariupol, they are here. By the way, we had a conversation. Uh, they will tell you that 20,000, 30,000 civilians were tortured and buried there. We do not know the number of victims. People who didn't want to work with them, who refused to cooperate with them, people who went on strikes to protest, people who did not want to work with the Russians who occupied Mariupol and this is one example, just with this city. And I have a question for you. What about the millions of children? And I will ask you in Russian so that you hear this without delay. What about the millions of children over there? What if we just arranged a ceasefire without understanding what would happen next? Without understanding what will happen to Ukraine's security guarantees? What about the millions of children in the occupied territories? What should I tell them? What am I to tell them? What is it I should tell them? What? Whatever? Hey, all of you over there, see ya. And those tens of thousands of people buried there, they were? Is that what we want? Are we ready to forgive them for this? We must at least take the first step. If this is a ceasefire, we must know that there is a security guarantee for the part of Ukraine under our control. We need it so that he will not come back. This is very important. And what do we say to the people who live in those territories? These are millions of people. Did you know that since 2014 in Donetsk, in the Crimea, this is happening in Melitopol as well, as in Berdyansk now? They are making all these kids of drafting age go and fight. And if they don't go, they will be killed. This is... Do you understand what's happening? That is why a ceasefire, everything I said, what I wish for, and I believe in President Trump's power to use all of this information to come up with a way to make Ukraine strong and be strong. Why am I saying that? I will give you an example. President Trump will be in the same situation as I was in 2019, precisely the same situation. I want to end the war. We want a lasting peace for Ukraine. We must do this, the ceasefire, exchange people, and then diplomatically return all territories, and we will do this through diplomacy. What will happen next with President Trump? If the ceasefire happens without security guarantees, at least for the territory we control, what does he get? If he manages to make a ceasefire deal and three months later Putin launches a new wave of attacks, what will Trump look like? What will Ukraine look like? What will everyone look like? Putin will just do it. And why would Putin do it? Because today, he's afraid of Trump. But once Trump manages, for example, to do a ceasefire deal without serious security guarantees for Ukraine, he will give a pass to Putin. Not that he wants to. No, he does not want that. I believe in what he says. But he will give Putin an opportunity, because in Putin's head, he wants me to fight with Trump. Putin's plan is to end the occupation of our territory. This is in his sick head, and I'm absolutely sure of this. That is why I told you, don't wait for Putin to want to stop the war. Pressure him so that he is forced to stop the war. That's important.

   22. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:05:30

       It's important to say that what you said about the children is a tragedy. War is hell. But let me say again, we must find a path to peace.

   23. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:05:38

       There is one.

   24. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:05:40

       What is it?

   25. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:05:41

       There is one. Before ceasefire, strong Ukraine. Strong Ukraine's position? Yes, we can speak about it with Trump. For me, we can, we can speak about security guarantees, but a quick step, a quick step is NATO. A partial membership NATO. Yes, I understand. I understand. I understand Trump's feelings about NATO. I heard him. He's thinking through all of it, of course. But anyway, yes, NATO is a strong security guarantee for all the people, for us, part of security guarantees. The second part is the arms aid package, which we will not use. If a ceasefire works, nobody will use the weapons. For what? But it has to stay. But with all due respect to the United States and to the administration, not like before. I don't want the same situation like we had with Biden. I ask for sanctions now, please, and weapons now, and then we will see. If they start it again, of course, we'll be happy if you'll give us more and you will stand with us shoulder to shoulder. Of course, that is right. But, but it's different when you have weapons. Putin wouldn't have been able to occupy so much territory. It was very difficult for us to push him out.... but we didn't have weapons before, and that is the same situation. It can be the same situation. I'm just sharing this with you. Like I said at the very beginning, I want to be very honest with you and with your audience. Yes, it's true. If we do not have security guarantees, Putin will come

7. 1:07:24 – 1:20:17

   NATO and security guarantees

   1. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:07:24

      again.

   2. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:07:24

      To make it clear, let's describe. The idea that you are speaking about, I would like to offer you other ideas too, but right now, your idea is that NATO accepts Ukraine minus the five regions of Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhia, Kherson, and Crimea.

   3. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:07:43

      Just so you understand the situation, the invitation to NATO is legislatively issued to Ukraine. So to us, all those territories are still Ukraine. But NATO, so far, can only act in the part that is under Ukrainian control. This can be negotiated. I am sure about that. Yes, this would not be v- a great success for us, but if we see a diplomatic way to end the war, this is one of the ways. So it is. Sorry. That is a start. Secondly, weapons, arms aid package. I'm not ready to discuss this publicly right now. It's all written down. And, and President Trump might have seen it or not, but we've got no secrets from him. Yes. So, but mostly, it depends on the willingness of the United States because some of it will come from the EU, some from the United States. Of course, together. So not just from the United States. No, no, no. We need unity with this package. So the package and sanctions. Yes, sanctions. But I think it's in the interest of all the smart people to not have Russian energy on the market in general. So he, he has to stop it. That's all. It's fine. American oil, American gas is okay. Why not? And it's cheaper, so it will be cheaper for the whole world. The money will go to the United States, and I think he will be happy, and the president and your people will be happy. But it's your decision. I'm just sharing. Yes, and cheap oil. So Putin won't have so much money for, for the war, and that, that's it.

   4. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:09:27

      But this is difficult because it's a lot. You're saying to continue the sanctions on Russia to accept Ukraine into NATO. I need to ask you some difficult questions about this.

   5. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:09:37

      Yes, go on.

   6. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:09:38

      I trust and respect your words today. Many people respect and love you in America. Trump respects you. Uh.

   7. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:09:46

      Loves me?

   8. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:09:47

      Oh, come on now.

   9. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:09:48

      (laughs)

   10. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:09:49

       Remember last time you corrected me? When I said that you love Javier Milei, you said, "No, no, no."

   11. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:09:53

       (laughs)

   12. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:09:53

       "I respect him."

   13. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:09:54

       Okay.

   14. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:09:55

       So let's not talk about love today, but could we talk seriously about, about guaranteeing Russia's security?

   15. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:10:04

       Okay. Can I interview you a little? Question is, what land is the war happening on, and where did it start? On our soil, on our territory. International law was violated. The sovereignty of our country was violated. Civilians were killed. Tens of thousands of our people were taken hostage. And everyone will tell you this happened. This is what happened. When I speak with the Global South, which is trying to balance the two sides because of the history, because of their roots, and because of their shared economic, um, interests with Russia in the past. And now, of course, when you talk to them, um, they are (sighs) speaking a little bit like you. I mean, they're balancing a little bit, you know? Yeah. A little bit in between, but we will work on it.

   16. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:10:56

       Yeah.

   17. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:10:57

       It's, it's our first meeting.

   18. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:10:58

       (laughs)

   19. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:10:59

       During the second one, you will be more on our side.

   20. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:11:01

       Yeah.

   21. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:11:01

       But it's just, just, just-

   22. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:11:03

       You're very convincing.

   23. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:11:03

       ... we will see.

   24. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:11:04

       Very charismatic.

   25. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:11:05

       Yeah. Thank you, but when I speak with them, when I speak, it's very important. Even with their balancing u- uh, attitude towards the war, they all recognize that this is a war. This is not just internal conflict. This is a full-scale war that began, that Putin began, and all of them, all of them, if you talk to them, they say... (laughs) But then they all recognize that, that it's his own big mistake, Putin's mistake, and that he's not right. That's why I said, "No, no, he's not right." And you have to begin from this. If you begin at the middle, between Ukraine and Russia, of course, we can speak like this. You are in the middle and say, "Okay, what's going on? There is a fight." Where is the fight? It's not the fight like, like in Europe when Napoleon is fighting against somebody in the middle of Europe. No. Uh, this is not in the middle of somewhere of the planet, not the planet. It's concretely on our land. So one, country with one army, one person came to another. That's it. It's very clear.

   26. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:12:38

       Again, I would like us to find a path to peace. So let us, nevertheless, try to start in the middle. What other ideas do you think might... You are a very intelligent person and-

   27. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:12:50

       Your Russian isn't that good either.

   28. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:12:52

       Ha.

   29. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:12:53

       And I told you-

   30. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:12:54

       Yes.
8. 1:20:17 – 1:39:47

   Sitting down with Putin and Trump

   1. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:20:17

      I have a dream that, let's say on January 25 or sometime at the end of January this year, you will sit down with Donald Trump, with Vladimir Putin, and together negotiate a ceasefire with strict security guarantees, and an agreement will be signed. What will this look like without NATO?

   2. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:20:41

      I will make it clear. And so first of all, I think January 25th or some other day, well, you just call it January 25th. And I don't mind, it's my birthday, and we sit down, first of all with Trump. We agree with him on how we can stop the war, stop Putin. It is important for us to sit down with him. Secondly, it is very important for us that Europe, which is very important for us because we are part of Europe, and not only geographically, geopolitically, but also in the European Union where we will be. For us, it is very important that Europe also has a voice. It's the second thing. It won't be long because Europe will be looking at us, and we'll be looking at Trump. And by the way, I now see that when I talk about something with Donald Trump, whether we meet in person or we just have a call, all the European leaders always ask, "How was it?" This shows the influence of Donald Trump, and this has never happened before with an American president. I tell you, from my experience, this also gives you confidence, you know, that he can stop this war. That is why we and Trump come first, and Europe will support Ukraine's position because they understand that Ukraine has every right to have its voice heard in this because we are at war. Trump and I will come to an agreement, and then if, and I am sure that he can offer strong security guarantees together with Europe, and then we can talk to the Russians. That's right, not just three of us sitting down at once. And you still talk to me like that? Do you know how? As if Putin wants to sit down and talk, but Ukraine does not. This is not true.

   3. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:23:02

      I think that, yes, he is in fact ready to talk.

   4. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:23:06

      Did you talk to him?

   5. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:23:07

      On the phone, or what?

   6. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:23:09

      How do you normally talk to him?

   7. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:23:10

      I don't know. Normally by the sea, the same as with you. He invites you to the sea with me, just the three of us.

   8. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:23:17

      No, no one of us may drown.

   9. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:23:19

      Who? Are you good at swimming?

   10. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:23:20

       Yes, I'm a good swimmer.

   11. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:23:22

       You're a good swimmer. Well... (laughs)

   12. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:23:25

       And I would like to add that if you have any contact with him, I just want to hear what happens then.

   13. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:23:32

       I have never talked to Vladimir Putin, but I have a feeling that he is ready because Donald Trump is ready. I hope you are ready. And this is not just a feeling, but a dream. I have a dream here that the three of you will get together in a room and make peace, and I want to understand what it looks like, what security guarantees look like that would satisfy Ukraine or satisfy Russia.

   14. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:24:04

       Ukraine needs security guarantees, first and foremost. We are in danger. That is why they are called so. This is no joke to me. Let's take a few steps back. Interesting. Um, why are security guarantees, a strong position of Ukraine, strong weapons and so on, so important? I will give you a little history lesson. Although I think you have prepared yourself and know everything perfectly well, you can correct me on that. Yes. Ukraine had security guarantees, the Budapest Memorandum. Nuclear weapons are the security guarantees that Ukraine had. Ukraine had nuclear weapons. I do not want to characterize it as good or bad. Today, the fact that we do not have them is bad. Why? Because this is war. Today, we are at war because you unleashed we- because you have unleashed the hands of a nuclear power. A nuclear power is fighting against us, against Ukraine, and doing what it wants. By the way, even you are now talking about ceasefire, just a ceasefire.Maybe give flowers to Putin, maybe to say, "Thank you so much for these years. That was a great part of my life." No. We are not just ready for this. Why? The Budapest Memorandum, nuclear weapons, this is what we had. Ukraine used them for protection. This does not mean that someone attacked us. That doesn't mean that we would have used it. We had that opportunity. These were our security guarantees. Why am I talking about this in detail? Because if you take the Budapest Memorandum... By the way, I discussed this with President Trump. We have not finished this conversation yet. We will continue it. Regarding the Budapest Memorandum, the Budapest Memorandum included security guarantees for Ukraine. At first, three, three. The most important security guarantors for Ukraine, three strategic friends and partners of Ukraine. This was an agreement. United States of America, Russia, Britain, France, and China joined. There were five states that... These are not even security guarantees. We now understand that this is not a guarantee of security, because on the one hand, these are security guarantees, but there was an English word, as far as I understand, assurance. It is translated as assurance. Assurance, right? And in Russian, it will be an, what? Assurance. That is, give up nuclear weapons because you are under pressure of the US and Russia for Ukraine to give them up. These two powers were exerting pressure. These two states negotiated to ensure that Ukraine does not have nuclear weapons. Ukraine agreed. These, these are the largest states. This is the nuclear five that does not, not even provide security guarantees. Now, we just need to find these people, and we just need to put in jail all of those who, frankly, invented all this. So, confidence. So, confidence, assurance. Assurance that Ukraine will be territorially integral with its sovereignty. It was a piece of paper. If you are curious, by the way, that after occupying part of our Donbas and Crimea, Ukraine sent diplomats three times. I don't think I remember... Three times within a few years, we sent letters to all security guarantors, to all members of the Budapest Memorandum. What did they send? That, what was written on the piece of paper. Consultations. Ukraine holds consultations if its territorial integrity is violated, and everyone should be in consultation. Everyone must come. Everyone must meet urgently. USA, Britain, Russia, France, China. "Did anyone come?" you ask. No. Did anyone reply to these letters? Official letters? They are all recorded by diplomats. Did anyone conduct consultations? No. And why not? They didn't give a fuck. This is understandable in Russian, right? That, as Russia didn't give a damn, neither did all the other security guarantors of the Budapest Memorandum. None of them gave a damn about this country, these people, these security guarantees, et cetera. We take a break. This will be a Budapest Memorandum. The last time with me, imagine how many years it was with me. In February 2022. In February 2022, the war began, a full-scale war. Letters for consultations have been sent. No one answers. Next, we are taking a break from the Budapest Memorandum. The question is simple about Budapest. Can we trust this? No. Whichever country out of these five sat at the negotiating table, just a, a piece of paper. "Believe me, we will save you." No. Another. This is a train. This is a train with waste paper, with security guarantees, which Ukraine has been riding for many years. The second car on this train is the Minsk Agreements, the Normandy Format and the Minsk Agreements where it was written, where the signatories were. The United States of America was no longer there. I understand that Obama was here at the time, and as far as I know, I think they were simply not interested in what happened to Ukraine and where it was in general, where it was located. Well, somewhere there, part of something. People, well, people, and let it be. Let it be with these people. The United States simply did not participate in the Minsk Agreements. There are no claims to the US because they were not guarantors. Where is the claim? A step back. 2008. Bucharest. Everyone has already learned from the Budapest Memorandum. Bucharest, 2008. Bucharest. Mr. Bush, President of the United States, Republican, says that Ukraine should be in NATO.This is the voice of Republicans. Check it out. Ukraine should be in NATO. Everybody's looking at the US, always, all in favor. Who is against? Merkel. So she opposes, and she forced everyone not to give Ukraine an invitation to join NATO because that would be a step. Seriously, Republicans were in favor. The US was in favor, because Republicans and Bush were not afraid of anyone. They were not afraid of anyone, and they knew that Ukraine rightly wanted to join NATO. She chooses so. And what is the question? Well, people made their choice. Well? And the Russians will not look that way. That was not the case then. Why? Because the Russians were different. Next, Minsk. We didn't succeed. After the Minsk agreements, as I told you, hundreds of meetings were held. I have had hundreds of meetings since 2019. We could not think about a ceasefire. A ceasefire is our offer. This is not somebody's suggestion. This is mine. I would like... I wanted to. In Ukraine, society was divided. Not everyone wanted to. Half did not want to. Half were against. Half were in favor. Some of them shouted, "Do not believe it." Some of them shouted, "Believe it." I am the president of Ukraine. I was given a mandate of trust by 70% of the population to take appropriate steps, and I made them. This is not a joke. We'll just sit, the three of us? I am simply telling you what is. This is... How can I tell you? These meetings must be serious and prepared, and prepared with those who want peace. Ukraine wants peace. US wants peace. We have to sit down with Trump, and that is 100%. First and foremost, number one. Moreover, he told me on the phone that he is waiting for us to meet, and there will be an official visit, and my visit would be the first or one of the first to him. And for him, this topic is very important. I know that he has his own matters, American issues, I understand. I heard his election program. But regarding international affairs, I think our issue is one of the most pressing issues for President Trump. Therefore, I believe very much, I trust his words, and I hope we will meet again. We need to prepare. We have many plans to build on, and they exist, and they are supported by many countries. But we need his vision. He needs to look at all these details. But his vision, please. Because he can stop Putin because Putin is afraid of him. That's a fact. But Trump is a president of a democratic country, and he does not come for life. He is not Putin. He will not come for 25 years. He will come for his term. Please tell me. Well, for example, he came for four years, and for the fifth year, Putin came with a war. Will it make Trump feel better that there was no war during his time and that Ukraine was destroyed after him? Why destroyed? Putin is whoever, a killer whoever, but not a fool. He will be prepared. He knows all mistakes. He understands how we defeated his army after the invasion began. He realized that this was not a Soviet war and that this would not happen with us. He will prepare. He will let everything into arms production. He will have lots of weapons, and there will be a very large army. And you think that after such humiliation, four years without a war, he did not finish us. He will return and fight only against Ukraine. He will destroy everything around. And if you say there is a risk that Trump, President Trump, will withdraw from NATO, for example, this is a decision of the United States. I'm simply saying that if it does, Putin will destroy Europe. Calculate the size of army in Europe. It's just that I say it for a reason. Do the calculation. Why did Hitler conquer all of Europe then? Almost. Just count. Remember, his armies of millions. Calculate what Europe has. What are the largest armies? We have the largest army. The Ukrainian army is the largest in Europe. The second place after us is four times smaller than us.

   15. LSLex Fridman (English monologue segment)1:36:33

       France.

   16. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:36:34

       Yes, 200,000. I think the French have about 200,000. We have 980.

   17. LSLex Fridman (English monologue segment)1:36:41

       So this powerful coalition of European nations.

   18. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:36:44

       That will not be enough.

   19. LSLex Fridman (English monologue segment)1:36:45

       Yes, it's not gonna be enough, but you're a smart man. There's a lot of ideas, partnerships, uh, s- with, uh, global South India, Middle East, Saudi Arabia, uh, partnerships, political partnerships. It all protects you.

   20. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:37:01

       First of all, look at one example. North Korea. Just look at this example. 12,000 has arrived. Today, 3,800 killed or wounded. They can bring more, 30, 40,000.... or maybe 500. They can bring many people. Why? Because they have order, autocracy, and everything. Can Europe bring people together? No. Will Europe be able to build an army consisting of two to three million people? No, Europe will not want to do this, and for what? We definitely don't want a world war with you. There is no such purpose. There is no such purpose as gathering everyone. We do not want any war. We want to stop the Russians, and they invite North Korean soldiers. Invited. Their faces are burned. They themselves burn their faces, those who cannot escape, injured or killed. There's a video. Everything I'm telling you, there is evidence of this. So that they are not recognizable, right? It means... What does it mean? It's out of values which share Europe. Europe counts. It means that those guys, they don't count ǀRahuyot. It's count, yes? They don't count the number of people. That is the answer. Can they move more? Yes. Can they move dozen of thousands? Yes, because we see what they have. Last year, for example, Europe gave us one million artillery rounds. We produced a lot ourselves, but they gave us initiative. It was initiative. One million artillery rounds and, and of 155 and et cetera. We produce more, but North Korea gave Putin 3.7, just gave him. So he also has a deficit for today. It means he needs what? He needs time.

   21. LSLex Fridman (English monologue segment)1:39:46

       But the

9. 1:39:47 – 1:45:15

   Compromise and leverage

   1. LSLex Fridman (English monologue segment)1:39:47

      number of soldiers-

   2. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:39:48

      Yes.

   3. LSLex Fridman (English monologue segment)1:39:49

      ... and the number of ar- artillery rounds is not everything, uh, as you have said. Let's say Donald Trump guarantees security for four years. Uh, you can form partnerships with, with India, with Saudi Arabia that enforce, uh, punishment, the stick, on oil prices, for example, if any aggressive action is taken. You can actually even build, uh... I've met a lot of incredible Ukrainian tech people, IT people. You could build great companies that form partnerships with the United States, that form partnerships with China, and that a- is a big leverage against aggression of however many million artillery rounds, and that sheet of paper, you don't need a sheet of paper of protection.

   4. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:40:41

      Ah, that's you, you, um... Well, when you speak-

   5. LSLex Fridman (English monologue segment)1:40:47

      In English.

   6. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:40:47

      ... in English, yeah, you don't even need, um, answers because when you now were talking, you already answered on all the questions. The first one is that, uh, during this time, you need just cooperation, a lot of money for, for this military industry. In Ukraine or in Europe, um, with India, Saudi Arabia, Saudi and the United States, you need a lot of money. So the question is where you will get it. So my answer was to Trump, I said, "This is one of the security guarantees. Take 300 billions of frozen Russian assets. We will take it. Take money, what we need for our interior production, and we will buy all the weapons from the United States. We don't need gifts from the United States. It will be very good for your industry, for the United States. We will put money there, Russian money. Not Ukrainian, not European, Russian money, Russian assets. They have to pay for this." We will put it, and we will make it. This is one of security guarantees. Yes, of course, because this is a military g- guarantee, yes. But then the second you said that energy price and a lot of, uh, sanctions on products and the Russian shadow fleet and et cetera. That is the second answer we spoke about before. Yes, put more sanctions on them. More sanctions, it's okay. Not... but-

   7. LSLex Fridman (English monologue segment)1:42:18

      Well, that's okay-

   8. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:42:19

      ... not to take off sanctions.

   9. LSLex Fridman (English monologue segment)1:42:20

      That's okay with you, but it's not a g- be, going to be okay with the president of Russia.

   10. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:42:24

       Yes, but I'm not thinking how it will be very good for him. He's still a killer.

   11. LSLex Fridman (English monologue segment)1:42:29

       I understand, but unfortunately, the reality is that a compromise is needed in order to reach an agreement.

   12. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:42:35

       So in your understanding, the fact that he is no in jailed after all the murders, he is not in jailed assuming all the murders, and no one in the world is able to put him in his place, send him to prison, do you think this is a small compromise?

   13. LSLex Fridman (English monologue segment)1:42:50

       This is not a small compromise, and to forgive him will not be a small compromise.

   14. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:42:55

       To forgive? No one will forgive. This is absolutely impossible to forgive him. We cannot get into the head and soul of a person who lost their family. Nobody never will accept this. Absolutely impossible. I don't know. Do you have children?

   15. LSLex Fridman (English monologue segment)1:43:09

       No, not yet.

   16. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:43:10

       Okay.

   17. LSLex Fridman (English monologue segment)1:43:10

       But I would like to.

   18. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:43:12

       Yes. God bless. And this is the most important thing in life, and they simply took away the most precious thing from you. Will you ask who ruined your life before going to rip their head off? I'm just curious. They took your child away. Are you going to ask who did this? And they will answer that, "That dude did this." You will say, "Oh, well, then there are no questions." No, no, no. You will go fucking hell and bite their head off, and it will be fair. Can murderers be forgiven? That's why-You make security guarantees. What I told you, for those who are here and what we control and what will not happen, and that those who lost, we will, we will, we will never forget in a matter of time. But when you gave us NATO, I just said this means that after a while, everything I said about NATO, after a while, Ukraine will not go against Russia, and Russia will not go against Ukraine because you are in NATO. I am just saying, is not that a compromise? So NATO is a compromise. This is not just a security guarantee, in my opinion. Look, when rockets were attacking Israel, and Israel is not in NATO, NATO countries' aircrafts were deployed. Air defense. The air defense worked, operated by different Middle Eastern countries. These are also security guarantees. And, by the way, Israel has nuclear weapons. So why do they need NATO when in fact they have more than NATO has? The American, British and French aviation stepped in. There was ADA, I don't remember from, from Jordan. Uh, listen, thousands of missiles were shot down that way. This is, this is... What is this?

10. 1:45:15 – 1:55:07

    Putin and Russia

    1. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:45:15

       So it's a guarantee of safety, it's just that it's not called NATO. Is some Uncle Vova irritated by the word NATO? There's a problem with the word? And I think he's simply irritated by people who, who are alive and living here.

    2. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:45:34

       If you believe this, it will be very difficult to negotiate. If you think that the president of a country is completely crazy, it is really hard to come to an agreement with him. You have to look at him as a serious person who loves his country and loves the people in his country, and he conducts, yes-

    3. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:45:52

       Who are you?

    4. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:45:52

       ... destructive military actions-

    5. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:45:53

       Who are you talking about now? Who loves his country?

    6. LILex Fridman (English voice-over / interpreter)1:45:56

       Putin. Do you think he doesn't love his country?

    7. VZVolodymyr Zelenskyy1:45:59

       (laughs) No. What is his country? He happened to consider Ukraine his country. What is his country? Explain it. Tomorrow, he will say that it's America. No pity for the Chechens? Do they look like Russians? Do they speak Russian? Of, of course, of course they learn in schools, like anywhere there's been Russification. Who are the Chechens? A different people. Another faith, other people, another language. A million eliminated. And eliminated how? How did he kill them? With love? I know, fuck. By hugging. In Ukrainian, as we, as we say, strangling by hugging. "I love you so, so much. I love you so much that I want to kill you." That's his love, and that's not love. You're mistaken. He does not love his people. He loves his inner circle. It's only a small part of the people. He doesn't love them. Why? I'll explain. You cannot send your people to another land to die knowing that they will die. Children, my, my daughter, my daughter, she is, she is 20 years old. For me, this is a child. She is already an adult, of course. But she is, she is a child. The boys, the boys he sends are 18 years old. 18 years old. They are children. He sends them. It's not that fascists came to his land and he needs to defend it. He, he came to ours, and he sent them. Chechnya, he sent them. Syria, he sent them. Africa, he sent them. Georgia, he sent them. Moldova, Transnistria, that was before him. Fine, we can leave that aside, he has enough sins of his own. And, and then there's Ukraine, the largest part. 7... 100... 80,000... 788,000 killed or, or wounded. Russians. He calls them all Russians, even those who don't know, who don't know how to speak Russian. On his territory of Russia, everything they've enslaved. Yes, proud Varangians. So I wonder, is that love? What love is this, and for what? Does he love his people? No. Does he love his land? His country is bigger than America. How much land do you need? America is huge. America is simply an outstanding country. Outstanding country. Russia is bigger. Well, just bigger. So, so ask yourself, does he love them? What is he doing? And what does he love? Do you think he's been everywhere in his Russia? It's impossible to get around it. He hasn't been everywhere. He just hasn't.

Episode duration: 3:06:39