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Whitney Cummings: Comedy, Robotics, Neurology, and Love | Lex Fridman Podcast #55
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Whitney Cummings: Comedy, Robotics, Neurology, and Love | Lex Fridman Podcast #55

Lex Fridman and Whitney Cummings on whitney Cummings on robots, neurology, love, and human hypocrisy.

Lex FridmanhostWhitney Cummingsguest
Dec 5, 20191h 16mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:31

    Whitney Cummings & BearClaw: Why a comedian is thinking about robots

    1. LF

      The following is a conversation with Whitney Cummings. She's a stand-up comedian, actor, producer, writer, director, and recently, finally, the host of her very own podcast called Good For You. Her most recent Netflix special called Can I Touch It? features, in part, a robot she affectionately named BearClaw that is designed to be visually a replica of Whitney. It's exciting for me to see one of my favorite comedians explore the social aspects of robotics and AI in our society. She also has some fascinating ideas about human behavior, psychology, and urology, some of which she explores in her book called I'm Fine and Other Lies. It was truly a pleasure to meet Whitney and have this conversation with her, and even to continue it through texts afterwards. Every once in a while, late at night, I'll be programming over a cup of coffee and will get a text from Whitney saying something hilarious, or weirder yet, sending a video of Bryan Callen saying something hilarious. That's when I know the universe has a sense of humor, and it gifted me with one hell of an amazing journey. Then I put the phone down and go back to programming with a stupid, joyful smile on my face. If you enjoy this conversation, listen to Whitney's podcast, Good For You, and follow her on Twitter and Instagram. This is the Artificial Intelligence Podcast. If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube, give it five stars on Apple Podcasts, support it on Patreon, or simply connect with me on Twitter @lexfridman,

  2. 1:31 – 3:32

    Sponsors and setup before the conversation begins

    1. LF

      spelled F-R-I-D-M-A-N. This show is presented by Cash App, the number one finance app in the App Store. They regularly support Whitney's Good For You podcast as well. I personally use Cash App to send money to friends, but you can also use it to buy, sell, and deposit Bitcoin in just seconds. Cash App also has a new investing feature, you can buy fractions of a stock, say $1 worth, no matter what the stock price is. Broker services are provided by Cash App Investing, a subsidiary of Square and member SIPC. I'm excited to be working with Cash App to support one of my favorite organizations called FIRST, best known for their FIRST Robotics and LEGO competitions. They educate and inspire hundreds of thousands of students in over 110 countries, and have a perfect rating on Charity Navigator, which means the donated money is used to maximum effectiveness. When you get Cash App from the App Store or Google Play and use code LEXPODCAST, you'll get $10 and Cash App will also donate $10 to FIRST, which, again, is an organization that I've personally seen inspire girls and boys to dream of engineering a better world. This podcast is supported by ZipRecruiter. Hiring great people is hard, and to me, is the most important element of a successful mission-driven team. I've been fortunate to be a part of and to lead several great engineering teams. The hiring I've done in the past was mostly through tools that we built ourselves, but reinventing the wheel was painful. ZipRecruiter's a tool that's already available for you. It seeks to make hiring simple, fast, and smart. For example, Kodable co-founder Gretchen Hebner used ZipRecruiter to find a new game artist to join her education tech company. By using ZipRecruiter's screening questions to filter candidates, Gretchen found it easier to focus on the best candidates and finally hiring the perfect person for the role in less than two weeks from start to finish. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire.

  3. 3:32 – 4:42

    Eye contact, insecurity, and first hints of human social wiring

    1. LF

      See why ZipRecruiter is effective for businesses of all sizes by signing up, as I did, for free at ziprecruiter.com/lexpod. That's ziprecruiter.com/lexpod. And now here's my conversation with Whitney Cummings. I have trouble making eye contact, as you can tell, right?

    2. WC

      Me too. Do you know that I had to work on making eye contact-

    3. LF

      Oh, yeah.

    4. WC

      ... 'cause I used to look here? Do you see what I'm doing?

    5. LF

      That helps, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    6. WC

      Do you want me to do that?

    7. LF

      No.

    8. WC

      I'll do this way, I'll cheat the camera.

    9. LF

      Okay.

    10. WC

      But I used to do this, and finally people... Like, I'd be on dates and guys would be like, "Are you looking at my hair?" Like, they-

    11. LF

      Yeah.

    12. WC

      ... get, it would make people really insecure because I didn't really get a lot of eye contact-

    13. LF

      Sure.

    14. WC

      ... as a kid. It's, it's one to three years. Did you not get a lot of eye contact as a kid?

    15. LF

      I don't know. I haven't, uh, done the soul-searching.

    16. WC

      Right.

    17. LF

      So, uh, but there's definitely some psychological issues there.

    18. WC

      Makes you uncomfortable?

    19. LF

      Yeah. For some reason, when I connect eyes, I start to think, uh, I assume that you're judging me. (laughs)

    20. WC

      Oh. Well, I am.

    21. LF

      (laughs)

    22. WC

      That's why you assume that.

    23. LF

      Yeah.

    24. WC

      We all are.

    25. LF

      All right.

    26. WC

      This is perfect. The podcast will be me and you both staring-

    27. LF

      (laughs)

    28. WC

      ... at the table the whole time. (laughs)

  4. 4:42 – 6:01

    Should future robots have gender? Sex robots vs. caretakers and professionals

    1. LF

      Do you think robots of the future, ones with human-level intelligence, will be female, male, genderless, or another gender we have not yet created as a society?

    2. WC

      You're the expert at this. (laughs)

    3. LF

      Well, I'm gonna ask you-

    4. WC

      You know the answer. (laughs)

    5. LF

      I'm gonna ask you questions that maybe nobody knows the answer to, or-

    6. WC

      Okay.

    7. LF

      ... or, and then I just want you to hypothesize as a, as a imaginative author-

    8. WC

      (laughs) .

    9. LF

      ... director, comedian, and just intellectual.

    10. WC

      Can we just be very clear that you know a ton about this and I know nothing about this? But I have thought a lot about-

    11. LF

      Yes.

    12. WC

      ... what I think robots can fix in our society. And, I mean, I'm a comedian. It's my job to, uh, study human nature, to make jokes about human nature, and to sometimes play devil's advocate. And I just see such a tremendous negativity around robots, or at least the idea of robots, that it was like, "Oh, I'm just gonna take the opposite side for fun, for jokes." And then I was like, "Oh, no, I really agree in this devil's advocate argument." So I, please correct me when I'm wrong about this stuff.

    13. LF

      So, so first of all, there's-

    14. WC

      Or-

    15. LF

      ... there's no right and wrong because we're all... I, I think most of the people working on robotics are really not actually even thinking about some of the big picture things that you've been exploring.

    16. WC

      Mm-hmm.

  5. 6:01 – 12:16

    BearClaw’s origin story and the power (and danger) of human likeness

    1. LF

      In fact, uh, your robot...What's her name, by the way? Uh-

    2. WC

      BearClaw.

    3. LF

      We'll go on with BearClaw?

    4. WC

      (laughs) Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    5. LF

      (laughs) What's the genesis of that name, by the way? What-

    6. WC

      BearClaw was, I, God, I don't even remember the joke 'cause I black out after I shoot specials. But I was writing something about like the pet names that men call women, like Cupcake, Sweetie, Honey, you know? Like, we're always named after desserts-

    7. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    8. WC

      ... or something. And I was just writing a joke about, um, if you want to call us a dessert, at least pick like a cool dessert, you know? Like BearClaw-

    9. LF

      Yeah.

    10. WC

      ... like something cool.

    11. LF

      Yeah.

    12. WC

      So I ended up calling her BearClaw.

    13. LF

      And she stuck. So do you think, uh, future robots of greater and greater intelligence, would you like to make them female, male? Would we like to assign them gender? Or would we like to move away from gender and say something more, uh, ambiguous?

    14. WC

      I think it depends on their purpose, you know? I feel like if it's a sex robot, it, people prefer certain genders, you know? And I also, you know, when I went down and, um, explored the robot factory, I was asking about the type of people that bought sex robots. And, um, I was very surprised at the answer, because of course, the stereotype was it's going to be a bunch of perverts. It ended up being a lot of, um, people that were handicapped, a lot of people with erectile dysfunction, and a lot of people that were exploring their sexuality. A lot of people that were, thought they were gay, but weren't sure, but didn't want to take the risk of trying on someone that could reject them and being embarrassed, or they were closeted, or in a city where maybe that's, you know, taboo and stigmatized, you know? So I think that a gendered sex robot, that would serve an important purpose for someone trying to explore their sexuality. Am I into men? Let me try on this thing first. Am I into women? Let me try on this thing first. So I think gendered robots would be important for that, but I think genderless robots in terms of emotional support robots, babysitters. I'm fine for a genderless babysitter (laughs) with my husband in the house. You know, there are places that I think that genderless makes a lot of sense-

    15. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    16. WC

      ... but obviously not in the sex area.

    17. LF

      What do you mean with your husband in the house? What does that have to do with the gender of the robot?

    18. WC

      Right. I mean, I don't have a husband, but hypothetically speaking, I think every woman's worst nightmare is like the hot babysitter. (laughs)

    19. LF

      (laughs)

    20. WC

      You know what I mean? So I think that there is a time and place, I think, for genderless, you know, teachers, doctors, all that kind of... It would be very awkward if the first robotic doctor was a guy, or the first robotic nurse was a woman, you know? It's sort of, there, that stuff is so loaded. Um, I think that genderless could just take the unnecessary, um, drama out of it and possibility to sexualize them or be triggered by any of that stuff.

    21. LF

      So there's, uh, two components to this, to BearClaw. So one is the voice and the talking and so on, and then there's the visual appearance. So on the topic of gender and genderless, in your experience, what has been the value of the physical appearance? So what, has it added much to the depth of the interaction?

    22. WC

      I mean, mine's kind of an extenuating circumstance 'cause she is supposed to look exactly like me.

    23. LF

      Yeah.

    24. WC

      I mean, I spent six months getting my face molded and having, you know... The idea was, I was exploring the concept of can robots replace us, because that's the big fear, but also the big dream in a lot of ways. And I wanted to dig into that area, because, you know, for a lot of people, it's like, "They're going to take our jobs and they're going to replace us." Legitimate fear. But then a lot of women I know are like, "I would love for a robot to replace me every now and then so it can go to baby showers for me, and it can pick up my kids at school, and it can cook dinner and whatever." Um, so I just think that was an interesting place to explore. So her looking like me was a big part of it. Now her looking like me just adds an unnecessary level of insecurity 'cause I got her a year ago and she already looks younger than me. So-

    25. LF

      (laughs)

    26. WC

      ... that's a weird problem.

    27. LF

      Yeah.

    28. WC

      But I think that her looking human was the idea. And I think that where we are now, please correct me if I'm wrong, a human robot resembling an actual human you know is going to feel more realistic than some generic face.

    29. LF

      Well, you're saying that, that, uh, robots that have some familiarity, like look similar to somebody that, that you actually know, you will be able to form a deeper connection with? That was the question?

    30. WC

      I think so, on some level, right?

  6. 12:16 – 14:47

    Uncanny valley, pathogen avoidance, and why humans fear “almost-human” things

    1. WC

      It gets tricky, and I think I'm... Again, I'm a comedian. Like, I'm obsessed with what makes us human and our human nature. And the nasty side of human nature tends to be where I've, you know, ended up exploring over and over again. And, um, I was just mostly fascinated by people's reactions. So, it's my job to get the biggest reaction from a group of strangers, the loudest possible reaction. And I just had this instinct, just when I started building her and people going, "Ah, ah," and scr- and people scream and they... I mean, I would bring her out on stage and people would scream. And I just... To me, that was the next level of entertainment. Getting a laugh, I've done that, I know how to do that. I think comedians are always trying to figure out what the next level is, and comedy is evolving so much. And, you know, Jordan Peele had just done, you know, these genius comedy horror movies, which feel like the next level of comedy to me, and this sort of funny horror-

    2. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    3. WC

      ... of a robot was fascinating to me. But I think the thing that I got the most obsessed with was people being freaked out and scared of her. And I started digging around with pathogen avoidance and the idea that we've essentially evolved to be repelled by anything that looks human but is off a little bit. Anything that could be sick or diseased or dead essentially is our reptilian brain's way to get us to not procre- try to have sex with it, basically.

    4. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    5. WC

      You know? So, I got really fascinated by how freaked out and scared. I mean, I would see grown men get upset, like, "Get that thing away from me. I don't like it."

    6. LF

      (laughs)

    7. WC

      I'm like, people would get angry. And it was like, you know the- what this is, you- you know.

    8. LF

      Yeah.

    9. WC

      But the sort of like, you know, amygdala getting activated by something that, to me, is just a fun toy, said a lot about our history as a species and what got us into trouble thousands of years ago.

    10. LF

      So- so it's that, it's the deep down stuff that's, uh, in our genetics, but also is it just, are people freaked out by the fact that there's a robot? So, it's not just the appearance, but there- there's an artificial human.

    11. WC

      Anything people, I think... And- and I'm just al- also fascinated by the blind spots humans have. So, the idea that you're afraid of that. I mean, how many robots have killed people? How many humans have died at the hands of other humans?

    12. LF

      Yeah, a- a few more.

    13. WC

      Millions? Hundreds of millions? (laughs)

    14. LF

      (laughs)

    15. WC

      Yet we're scared of that?

    16. LF

      Yeah.

    17. WC

      And we'll go to the grocery store and be around a bunch of humans who statistically the chances are much higher that you're gonna get killed by a human. So, I'm just fascinated by, without judgment, how irrational we are as- as a- a species.

  7. 14:47 – 17:42

    Algorithms, politics, and the real fear: runaway complexity and scale

    1. LF

      The- the worry is the exponential. So, it's, you know, you could say the same thing about nuclear weapons before we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. So, the worry that people have is the exponential growth. So-

    2. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    3. LF

      So, it's like, oh, it's fun and games right now, but, uh, you know, overnight, especially if a- if a robot provides value to society, we'll put one in every home.

    4. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    5. LF

      And then all of a sudden lose track of the actual large-scale impact it has on society-

    6. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    7. LF

      ... and then all of a sudden gain greater and greater control to where we'll all be... You know, affect our political system and then affect our decisions a lot.

    8. WC

      Didn't robots already ruin our political system? Didn't that just already happen?

    9. LF

      Which ones? Oh, Russia hacking-

    10. WC

      No offense.

    11. LF

      (laughs)

    12. WC

      But hasn't that already happened?

    13. LF

      None taken.

    14. WC

      I mean, that was like an algorithm of negative things being clicked on more.

    15. LF

      We like to tell stories and we like to demonize certain people. I think nobody understands our current political system, our discourse on Twitter-

    16. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    17. LF

      ... the Twitter mobs. Nobody has a sense... Not Twitter, not Facebook, the people running it, nobody understands the impact of these algorithms. They're trying their best.

    18. WC

      Yeah.

    19. LF

      Despite what people think, they're not, like, a bunch of lefties trying to make sure that Hillary Clinton gets elected. It's more that, uh, it's an incredibly complex system that we don't...

    20. WC

      Yeah.

    21. LF

      And that's the worry. It's so complex and moves so fast that, uh, nobody will be able to stop it once it happens.

    22. WC

      And let me ask a question. This is a very savage question.

    23. LF

      Yeah.

    24. WC

      Which is, is this just the next stage of evolution as humans? And people will die. Yes, some- I mean, that's always happened, you know? Is- this is just taking emotion out of it. Is this basically the next stage of survival of the fittest?

    25. LF

      Yeah. You have to think of organisms. You know, what is it mean to be a living organism? Like, is a smartphone part of your living organism or-

    26. WC

      We're at- we're in relationships with our phones.

    27. LF

      Yeah, but it-

    28. WC

      We have sex through them, with them. What's the difference between with them and through them?

    29. LF

      But it also expands your cognitive abilities, expands your memory, knowledge and so on. So, you're a much smarter person because you have a smartphone in your hand.

    30. WC

      But it won't- as soon as it's out of my hand- (laughs)

  8. 17:42 – 23:20

    Robots as hope: class, gender, safety, and medical access

    1. WC

      I'm gonna play devil's advocate. I just think that the fear of robots is wildly classist because... I mean, Facebook. Like, it's easy for us to say, "They're taking their data." Okay, well, a lot of people that get employment off of Facebook, they are able to get income off of Facebook. They don't care if you take their phone numbers and their emails and their data as long as it's free. They don't want to have to pay $5 a month for Facebook. Facebook is a wildly democratic thing. Forget about the election and all that kind of stuff.

    2. LF

      Yeah.

    3. WC

      You know, a lot of, you know, technology making people's lives easier, it- I find that w-... most elite people are more scared than lower income people, so-

    4. LF

      Yes.

    5. WC

      ... and women for the most part. So the idea of something that's stronger than us and that might eventually kill us, like women are used to that. (laughs) Like that's not... (laughs) I see a lot of, like really wi- rich men being like, "The robots are gonna kill us." We're like, "What's another thing that's gonna kill us?" You know. I tend to see like, oh, something can walk me to my car at night. Like something can help me cook dinner. Something, you know. Um, for, you know, people in underprivileged countries who can't afford eye surgery, like can a robot... Can we send a robot to underprivileged, you know, places to do surgery where they can't? I work with this, um, uh, organization called Operation Smile where they do cleft palate surgeries, and there's a lot of places that can't do a very simple surgery, um, because they can't afford doctors and medical care and such. So I just see... And this can be completely naive and should be completely wrong, but I feel like we're... a lot of people are going like, "The robots are gonna destroy us." Humans, we're destroying ourselves. We're self-destructing. Robots, to me, are the only hope to clean up all the messes that we've created. Even when we go try to clean up pollution in the ocean, we make it worse because of the oil that the tankers... (laughs) Like, it's like, to me, robots are the only solution. You know, firefighters are heroes but they're limited in how many times they can run into a fire. You know, so there's just something interesting to me. I'm not hearing a lot of like lower income, more vulnerable populations talking about robots.

    6. LF

      Maybe you can speak to it a little bit more. There's an idea, I think you've expressed it, of a herd... Actually, a few female writers and roboticists have talked to express this idea that, uh, exactly you, you just said, which is, uh, it just seems that, uh, being, being afraid of existential threats of artificial intelligence is, is a male issue.

    7. WC

      Yeah.

    8. LF

      It... And I wonder what that is. If it... Uh, because, because men have n- in certain positions, like you said, it's also a classes issue. They haven't been humbled by life and so you always look for the biggest problems to take on around you.

    9. WC

      It's a champagne problem to be afraid of robots. Most people like don't have health insurance, they're afraid they're not gonna be able to feed their kids, they can't afford a tutor for their kids. Like, I mean, I just think of, you know, the way I grew up and I had a mother who, you know, worked two jobs, had kids. We couldn't afford an SAT tutor. You know, like we... The idea of a robot coming in being able to tutor your kids, being able to provide childcare for your kids, you know, being able to come in with cameras for eyes and make sure... You know, surveillance. You know, I'm very pro-surveillance because, you know, I've had security problems and I've been, you know... We're generally in a little more danger than you guys are. So I think that robots are a little less scary to us 'cause we can see them maybe as like free assistance, help, and protection. And then there's sort of another element for me, personally, which is maybe more of a female problem, I don't know. I'm just gonna make a generalization. Happy to be wrong. But, you know, the emotional sort of component of robots and what they can provide in terms of... You know, there... I think there's a lot of people that aren't... don't have microphones that I just recently kind of stumbled upon in doing all my research on the sex robots for my standup special, which is there's a lot of very shy people that aren't good at dating. There's a lot of people who are scared of human beings, who, you know, have personality disorders or grew up in alcoholic homes or struggle with addiction or whatever it is where a robot can solve an emotional problem. And so we're largely having this conversation about like rich guys that are emotionally healthy and how scared of robots they are. (laughs)

    10. LF

      (laughs)

    11. WC

      We're forgetting about like a huge part of the population who maybe isn't as charming and effervescent-

    12. LF

      Yeah.

    13. WC

      ... and solvent as, you know, people like you and Elon Musk who these robots could solve very real problems i- in their life, emotional or financial.

    14. LF

      Well, that's a, in general, really interesting idea that most people in the world don't have a voice. It's a... You've talked about it. Sort of even the people on Twitter who are driving the conversation. You said comments, people who leave comments represent a very tiny percent of the population.

    15. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    16. LF

      And they're the ones... They... You know, we tend to think they speak for the population, but it's very possible on many topics they don't at all.

    17. WC

      And look, I, I... And I'm sure there's gotta be some kind of legal, you know, sort of structure in place for when the robots happen. You know way more about this than I do. But, you know, for me to just go, "The robots are bad," that's a wild generalization that I feel like is really inhumane in some way. You know, just after the research I've done, like you're gonna tell me that a man whose wife died suddenly and he feels guilty moving on with a human woman or can't get over the grief, he can't have a sex robot in his own house? Why, why not? Who cares? Why do you care?

    18. LF

      Well, there's a- an interesting aspect of human nature. So, you know, we all tend to as a, as a civilization to create a group that's the other in all kinds of ways.

    19. WC

      Right.

  9. 23:20 – 29:35

    Abusing robots, animal cruelty, and surveillance as behavior control

    1. LF

      And so you work with animals too. You've, you're especially sensitive to the suffering of animals. Now let me kind of ask, what's your... Do you think we'll abuse robots in the future? What... Do, do you think some of the darker aspects of human nature will come out with robots?

    2. WC

      I think some people will. But if we design them properly, the people that do it, we can put it on a record and they can... We, we can put them in jail. (laughs) We can find sociopaths more easily. You know, like-

    3. LF

      But why is that, why is that a sociopathic thing to harm a robot?

    4. WC

      I think... Look, I don't know as enough, enough about the consciousness and stuff as you do. It... I guess it would have to be when they're conscious, but it is, you know, the part of the brain that is, you know, responsible for compassion, the frontal lobe or whatever. Like people that abuse animals also abuse humans and commit other kinds of crimes. Like that's... It's all the same part of the brain. No one abuses animals and then is like awesome to women and children and awesome to underprivileged, you know, minorities. Like it's all... So, you know, we've been working really hard to, um, put a database together of all the people that have abused animals so when they commit another crime you go, "Okay, this is... You know, it's all the same stuff." And-... I think people probably think I'm nuts for the, a lot of the animal work I do, but because when animal abuse is present, another crime is always present, but the animal abuse is the most socially acceptable. You can kick a dog and there's nothing people can do, but then what they're doing behind closed doors, you can't see. So, there's always something else going on, which is why I never feel compunction about it. But I do think we'll start seeing the same thing with robots.

    5. LF

      Yes.

    6. WC

      Um, the person that kicks the... I- I felt compassion when the, the kicking the dog robot really pissed me off. (laughs)

    7. LF

      (laughs)

    8. WC

      I know that they're just trying to get the stability right and all that.

    9. LF

      Yeah.

    10. WC

      But I do think there will come a time where that will be a great way to be able to figure out if somebody is... has, like, you know, antisocial behaviors.

    11. LF

      You kind of mentioned surveillance.

    12. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    13. LF

      It's also a really interesting idea of yours that you just said, you know, a lot of people seem to be really uncomfortable with surveillance.

    14. WC

      Yeah.

    15. LF

      And you just said that, "You know what? For- for me s- you know, there's positives for surveillance."

    16. WC

      I think people behave better when they know they're being watched. And I know this is a very unpopular opinion. I'm talking about it on stage right now. I, we behave better when we know we're being watched. You and I had a very different conversation before we were recording. (laughs)

    17. LF

      (laughs)

    18. WC

      It, we behave different.

    19. LF

      Yeah, true.

    20. WC

      You sit up and you are in your best behavior-

    21. LF

      Yeah.

    22. WC

      ... and I'm trying to sound eloquent-

    23. LF

      Yeah.

    24. WC

      ... and I'm trying to not hurt anyone's feelings.

    25. LF

      Yeah.

    26. WC

      And, I mean, I have a camera right there.

    27. LF

      Yeah.

    28. WC

      I'm behaving totally different-

    29. LF

      Yeah.

    30. WC

      ... than when we first started talking, you know? When you know there's a camera, you behave differently. I mean, there's cameras all over LA at stoplights, so that people don't run stoplights. But there's not even film in it. They don't even use them anymore-

  10. 29:35 – 34:29

    Factory farming and the ethics we’ll be embarrassed about later

    1. LF

      On the topic of animals, so c- can we just linger on it a little bit? Like, w- what do you think... Wh- what does it say about our society, of the society-wide abuse of animals that, that we see in general? Sort of factory farming, just, just in general, just the way we treat animals of different categories. Like what (sighs) what do you think of that? What does a better world look like? What's, um, what should people think about it in general?

    2. WC

      I think, um, I think the most interesting thing I can probably say around this that's the least emotional, 'cause I'm actually a very non-emotional animal person because it's... I think everyone's an animal person, it's just a matter of it's, if it's yours or if you've, you know, been conditioned to go numb, you know? Um, I think it's really a testament to what, as a species, we are able to be in denial about. Mass denial and mass delusion, and how we're able to dehumanize and debase groups. Um, you know-... World War II, um, in a way, in order to conform and find protection in the conforming. So, we are also a species who used to go to coliseums and watch elephants and tigers fight to the death. We used to watch human beings be pulled apart in br- the c- it wasn't that long ago. We're also a species who had slaves, and it was socially acceptable by a lot of pe- people didn't see anything wrong with it. So, we're a species that is able to go numb and that is able to dehumanize very quickly and make it the norm. Child labor wasn't that long ago (laughs) . Like, the-

    3. LF

      Yeah.

    4. WC

      ... idea that now we look back and go, "Oh, yeah, kids were losing fingers in factories making shoes." Like, someone had to come in and make that s- you know? So, I think it just says a lot about the fact that, you know, we are animals and we are self-serving, and, um, one of the most success- the most successful species, because we are able to debase and degrade and essentially exploit anything that benefits us. I think the pendulum's gonna swing, as being, let's say-

    5. LF

      Which way?

    6. WC

      Like, I think we're Rome now, kind of (laughs) .

    7. LF

      (laughs)

    8. WC

      I think we're on the verge of collapse because we, our dopamine receptors, like, we are just... I think we're all kind of addicts when it comes to this stuff.

    9. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    10. WC

      Like, we don't know, um, when to stop. It's always the buffet. Like, we're... The thing that used to keep us alive, which is killing animals and eating them, now killing animals and eating them is what's killing us, in a way. So, it's like we just can't... We don't know when to call it, and we don't... Moderation is not really something that humans have evolved to have yet. So, I think it's really just a flaw in our wiring.

    11. LF

      Do you think we'll look back at this time as, uh, uh, uh, at our society as being deeply unethical?

    12. WC

      Yeah. Yeah. I think we'll be embarrassed.

    13. LF

      Which are the worst parts right now going on? Is it, is it-

    14. WC

      In terms of animal... Well, I think the-

    15. LF

      No, in terms of anything, what's the unethical thing? If we... And it's very hard just to take a step out of it, but, uh, you just said we used to watch, you know-

    16. WC

      Yeah.

    17. LF

      Uh, there's been a lot of cruelty throughout history.

    18. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    19. LF

      What's the cruelty going on now?

    20. WC

      I think it's gonna be pigs. I think it's gonna be... I mean, pigs are one of the most emotionally intelligent animals, and they have the intelligence of, like, a three-year-old, and I think we'll look back and be really gr- they're s- they use tools. I mean, they're, um... I think we have this narrative that they're pigs and they're pigs and they're, they're disgusting and they're dirty and their bacon is so g- I think that we'll look back one day and be really embarrassed about that.

    21. LF

      Is this for just, um, what's it called? The factory farming?

    22. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    23. LF

      So, basically mass-

    24. WC

      'Cause we don't see it. If you saw it-

    25. LF

      Yeah.

    26. WC

      I mean, we do have... I mean, this is probably an evolutionary advantage. We do have the ability to completely pretend something's not... something that is so horrific that it overwhelms us, and we are able to essentially deny that it's happening. I think if people were to see-

    27. LF

      Yeah.

    28. WC

      ... what goes on in factory farming, and also were really to take in, um, how bad it is for us. You know, we're hurting ourselves first and foremost with what, what we eat, but that's also a very elitist argument. You know? Um, it's a luxury to be able to complain about meat. It's a luxury to be able to not eat meat, you know? There's very few people because of, you know, how the corporations have set up meat being cheap, you know? It's $2 to buy a Big Mac. It's $10 to buy a healthy meal. You know, that's... I think a lot of people don't have the luxury to even think that way. But I do think that animals in captivity, I think we're gonna look back and be pretty grossed out about, mammals in captivity, whales, dolphins. I mean, that's already starting to dismantle. Circuses, um, we're gonna be pretty embarrassed about. But I think it's really more a testament to, you know, there's just such a, a ability to go, like, "That thing is different-

    29. LF

      Yeah.

    30. WC

      ... than me, and we're better." It's the ego. I mean, it's just... We have the species with the biggest ego, ultimately.

  11. 34:29 – 36:36

    Can robots teach empathy? Safe spaces, non-judgment, and emotional utility

    1. LF

      Well, that's what I think. Uh, that, that's my hope for robots, is they'll... You mentioned consciousness before. Nobody knows, uh, what consciousness is, but, uh, I'm hoping, um, robots will help us empathize and understand that, um, that there's other creatures out besides ourselves that can suffer, that can, um, that can experience the world-

    2. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    3. LF

      ... and that we can torture by our actions. And robots can explicitly teach us that, I think, better than animals can.

    4. WC

      I have never seen such compassion from a lot of people in my life toward any human, animal, child, as I have a lot of people and the way they interact with the robot. 'Cause I think there's-

    5. LF

      Compassion. Interesting.

    6. WC

      ... compa- I think there's something of... I, I mean, I was on the robot owners chat boards for-

    7. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    8. WC

      ... a good eight months. And the main emotional benefit is she's never gonna cheat on you.

    9. LF

      Oh, wow.

    10. WC

      She's never gonna hurt you. She's never gonna lie to you. She doesn't judge you. You know, I think that robots h- help people, and this is part of the work I do with animals, like I do equine therapy and train dogs and stuff, because there is this safe space to be authentic. You're with-

    11. LF

      Hmm.

    12. WC

      ... this being that doesn't care what you do for a living, doesn't care how much money you have, doesn't care who you're dating, doesn't care what you look like, doesn't care if you have cellulite, whatever. You feel safe to be able to truly, you know, be present without being defensive and worrying about eye contact-

    13. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    14. WC

      ... and being triggered by, you know, needing to be perfect and fear of judgment and all that. And robots really can't judge you yet. Uh (laughs) , but they can't judge you, and I think it really puts people at their, um, at ease and at their most authentic.

    15. LF

      Do you think you can have a deep connection with a robot that's not judging or ... Y- do you think you can really have a relationship with a robot or a human being that's a safe space? Or is attention, mystery, danger necessary for a deep connection?

  12. 36:36 – 44:45

    Codependency, passion vs. addiction, and defining “healthy” relationships

    1. WC

      I'm gonna speak for myself and say that...... I grew up an alcohol comb. I identify as a codependent. Talked about this stuff before, but for me, it's very hard to be in a relationship with a human being without feeling like I need to perform in some way-

    2. LF

      Yeah.

    3. WC

      ... or deliver in some way, and I don't know if that's just the people I've been in a relationship with or, or me, or my brokenness, but I do think th- this is going to sound really, um, negative, uh, and pessimistic, but I do think a lot of our relationships are a projection, and a lot of our relationships are performance. And I don't think I really understood that until I worked with horses. And most communication that's human is non-verbal, right?

    4. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    5. WC

      I can say, like, "I love you"-

    6. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    7. WC

      ... but th- you're not, you don't think I love you.

    8. LF

      Yeah.

    9. WC

      Right? Whereas, is, with animals, it's very direct. It's all physical. It's all energy. I feel like that with robots too. It feels very, um, uh, what, uh, how I say something doesn't matter. My inflection doesn't really matter.

    10. LF

      Yeah.

    11. WC

      And you thinking that my tone is disrespectful, like, you're not filtering it through all-

    12. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    13. WC

      ... of the bad relationships you've been in. You're not filtering it through the way your mom talked to you. You're not getting triggered, you know? I find that, for the most part, people don't always receive things the way that you intend them to, or the way it's intended, and that makes relationships really murky.

    14. LF

      So the relationships with animals and relationship with the robots as they are now, you kind of implied that that's more healthy? Uh, uh, th- can you have a healthy relationship with other humans? Or not healthy. I don't like that word, but shouldn't it be... You've talked about codependency. Maybe you can talk about what is codependency, but is that, is the, the challenges of that, the complexity of that necessary for passion, for, for love between humans?

    15. WC

      That's right. You love passion. (laughs) That's a good thing.

    16. LF

      I thought this would be a safe space.

    17. WC

      (laughs) All right.

    18. LF

      I got trolled, I got trolled, I got, I got trolled by Rogan-

    19. WC

      No, I think-

    20. LF

      ... for hours on this. (laughs)

    21. WC

      I, look, I am not anti-passion. I think that I've just maybe been around long enough to know that sometimes it's ephemeral-

    22. LF

      (laughs)

    23. WC

      ... and that passion is a mixture of a lot of different things, adrenaline, which turns into dopamine, cortisol. It's a lot of neurochemicals. It's a lot of projection. It's a lot of what we've seen in movies. It's a lot of... You know, it's, it's...

    24. LF

      Sure.

    25. WC

      I identify as an addict, so for me, sometimes passion is like, "Uh-oh, this could be bad." And I think we've been so conditioned to believe that passion means, like, your soulmates, and I mean, how many times have you had a passionate connection with someone and then it was a total train wreck? Passion-

    26. LF

      The train wreck is interesting-

    27. WC

      How many times exactly? (laughs)

    28. LF

      Exactly. What's, what's a train wreck?

    29. WC

      You just did a lot of math in your head-

    30. LF

      (laughs) Yeah.

  13. 44:45 – 50:20

    Neurology as liberation: migraines, strokes, addiction, and compassion

    1. WC

      I mean, there's people that speak much better about this than I do. Um, but I just, I'm obsessed with neurology and I'm just obsessed with sort of the lies we tell ourselves in order to justify getting neurochemicals.

    2. LF

      You've, uh, you've done actually quite, done a lot of thinking and talking about neurology and just kinda look at human behavior through the lens of, uh, of looking at how our actually chemically our brain works. So what... First of all, h- why did you connect with that idea and what have you... How has your view of the world changed by considering the, the brain as just a machine?

    3. WC

      You know, I know it probably sounds really nihilistic, but I, for me, it's very liberating to know a lot about neurochemicals because you don't have to... It's like the same thing with, like, like critics, like critical reviews.

    4. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    5. WC

      If you believe the good, you have to believe the bad kind of thing. Like, you know, if you believe that your bad choices were because of your moral integrity, or whatever, you have to believe your good ones. I just think there's something really liberating in going like, "Oh, that was just adrenaline."

    6. LF

      Yeah.

    7. WC

      "I just said that thing 'cause I was adrenalized and I was scared-

    8. LF

      Yeah.

    9. WC

      ... and my amygdala was activated, and that's why I said you're an asshole and get out." And that's, you know, I think, I just think it's important to delineate what's nature and what's nurture, what is your choice and what is just your brain trying to keep you safe. I think we forget that even though we have security systems in homes and locks on our doors, that our brain for the most part is just trying to keep us safe all the time. It's why we hold grudges, it's why we get angry, it's why we get road rage, it's why we do a lot of things. And it's also, when I started learning about neurology, I started having so much more compassion for other people.

    10. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    11. WC

      You know? If someone yelled at me, being like, "Fuck you!" on the road, I'd be like, "Okay, he's producing adrenaline right now-

    12. LF

      (laughs)

    13. WC

      ... because we're all going 65 miles an hour-

    14. LF

      Yeah.

    15. WC

      ... and our brains aren't really designed-

    16. LF

      Yeah.

    17. WC

      ... for this type of stress, and he's scared." He was scar- You know, so that really helped me to have more love for people in my everyday life, um, instead of being in fight or flight mode. But, um, the, I think, more interesting answer to your question is that I've had migraines my whole life. Like, I've suffered with really intense migraines. Um, ocular migraines, ones where my arm would go numb, and I just started (laughs) having to go to so many doctors to learn about it. And I started, you know, learning that we don't really know that much.

    18. LF

      Right.

    19. WC

      We know a lot, but it's wild to go into one of the best neurologists in the world who's like, "Yeah, we don't know."

    20. LF

      "We don't know."

    21. WC

      "We don't know." And that fascinated me. I was like-

    22. LF

      That's like one of the worst pains you can probably have, all that stuff, and we don't know the source.

    23. WC

      We don't know the source, and there is something really fascinating about when your left arm starts going numb and you start not being able to see out of the left side of both your eyes. And I remember when the migraines get really bad, they're, it's like a mini-stroke almost, and you're able to see words on a page-

    24. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    25. WC

      ... but I can't read them. They just look like symbols to me.

    26. LF

      Oh, wow.

    27. WC

      So there's something just really fascinating to me about your brain just being able to stop functioning. And I, so I just wanted to learn about it, study about it. Um, I did all these weird alternative treatments. I got this piercing in here that actually works. I've tried everything. And then both my parents had strokes. So when both of my parents had strokes, I became sort of the person who had to decide what (laughs) was gonna happen with their recovery-

    28. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    29. WC

      ... which is just a wild thing to have to deal with at, you know, 28 years old, um, when it happened. And I started spending basically all day every day in ICUs with neurologists learning about what happened to my dad's brain and why he can't move his left arm but he can move his right leg, but he can't see out of the... You know. And then my mom had another stroke, um, in a different part of the brain. So I started having to learn what parts of the brain did what, and so that I wouldn't take their behavior so personally and so that I would be able to manage my expectations in terms of their recovery.

    30. LF

      Mm-hmm.

  14. 50:20 – 56:38

    Mind over matter, 12-step mechanics, and how reward systems reshape behavior

    1. LF

      I- I want to be careful with this question, but how much-

    2. WC

      Money do you have?

    3. LF

      How much-

    4. WC

      (laughs)

    5. LF

      Can I borrow $10?

    6. WC

      (laughs)

    7. LF

      (laughs) Okay. Uh, no, uh, is how much control... How much, despite the chemical imbalances or the biological limitations that each of our individual brains have, how much mind over matter is there? So, through things, and I've- I've known people with- with, uh, clinical depression. And so it's- it's always a- a touchy subject to say how much they can really help, but-

    8. WC

      Very.

    9. LF

      Uh, what can you... Yeah, what- what can you... 'Cause you've- you've- you've talked about codependency, you've talked about issues that you're struggled through, and nevertheless you choose to take a journey of healing and so on, and so that's your choice, that's your actions. So, how much can you do to help fight the limitations of the neurochemicals in your brain?

    10. WC

      That's such a interesting question, and I don't think I'm at all qualified to answer it. But I'll say what I do know. Um, and really quick, just, the definition of codependency, I think a lot of people think of codependency as, like, two people that can't stop hanging out, you know?

    11. LF

      Yeah.

    12. WC

      Or, like, you know... That's not totally off, but I think for the most part, my favorite definition of codependency is the inability to tolerate the discomfort of others. You grow up in an alcoholic home, you grow up around mental illness, you grow up in chaos, you have a parent that's a narcissist, you basically are wired to just people please, worry about others, be perfect, walk on eggshells, shape-shift to accommodate other people. So, codependency is a very active, um, wiring issue that, you know, doesn't just affect your romantic relationships. It affects you being a boss. It affects you-

    13. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    14. WC

      ... um, in the world online. You know, you get one negative comment, and it throws you for two weeks, or, you know, it also is linked to eating disorders and other kinds of addictions. So it's- it's- it's a very big thing, and I think a lot of people sometimes only think that it's in romantic relationships, so I always feel the need to say that. And also, one of the reasons I love the idea of robots so much, because you don't have to walk on eggshells around them, you don't have to worry they're going to get mad at you yet. But you- there's no... Codependents are hypersensitive to the needs and moods of others, and it's very exhausting. It's depleting. Just a, well, one conversation about where we're gonna go to dinner is like, "Do you want to go get Chinese food?" "We just had Chinese food." "Well, wait, are you mad?" "Well, no, I didn't mean to..." And it's just like that codependents live in this everything means something, and humans can be very emotionally exhausting. Um, "Why did you look at me that way? What are you thinking about? What was that? Why'd you check your phone?" It's just this- it's a hypersensitivity that can be incredibly time-consuming, which is why I love the idea of robots just subbing in. Even- I've had a hard time running TV shows and stuff, because even asking someone to do something, I don't want to come off like a bitch.

    15. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    16. WC

      I'm very concerned about what other people think of me, how I'm perceived, um, which is why I think robots will be very beneficial for- for codependents.

    17. LF

      By the way, just a real quick tangent, that skill or flaw, whatever you want to call it, is actually really useful for if you ever do start your own podcast for interviewing, because you're now kind of obsessed about the mindset of others.

    18. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    19. LF

      And it makes you a good sort of listener and talker with... So, I- I think, uh, um, what's her name, from NPR, t- talked about-

    20. WC

      Terry Gross?

    21. LF

      Terry Gross talked about having that. So-

    22. WC

      I don't feel like she has that at all.

    23. LF

      (laughs) Was...

    24. WC

      What?

    25. LF

      Uh, but-

    26. WC

      She worries about other people's feelings?

    27. LF

      Yeah, absolutely.

    28. WC

      Oh. I don't get that at all.

    29. LF

      I mean, you have to put yourself in the mind of the person-

    30. WC

      You must-

  15. 56:38 – 1:04:40

    Social media as addiction: ranking anxiety, feedback loops, and boundary-setting

    1. LF

      So, talking about a, a pack that's not at all healthy or good, but in fact is often toxic, social media. (object thuds) So, you're one of my favorite people on Twitter and Instagram to, uh, s- sort of just both the comedy and the insight and just fun. How do you prevent social media from destroying your mental health?

    2. WC

      I haven't.

    3. LF

      (laughs)

    4. WC

      I haven't. It's the next big epidemic, isn't it? I don't think I have. I don't, I don't think I-

    5. LF

      Is moderation the answer? What, uh-

    6. WC

      Maybe, but you can do a lot of damage in a moderate way. (laughs) I mean, I guess, again, it depends on your goals, you know? And, and I think for me, the way that my addiction to social media, I'm happy to call it an addiction. I mean, and I define it as an addiction because it stops being a choice. There are times I just reach over-

    7. LF

      Yeah.

    8. WC

      ... and I'm like, "That was..."

    9. LF

      "Yeah, that was weird."

    10. WC

      "That was weird."

    11. LF

      (laughs)

    12. WC

      I'll be driving sometimes and I'll be like, "Oh my God-

    13. LF

      Yeah.

    14. WC

      ... my arm just went to my phone."

    15. LF

      Yeah.

    16. WC

      You know? I can put it down, I can take time away from it, but when I do, I get antsy.

    17. LF

      Yeah.

    18. WC

      I get restless, irritable and discontent. I mean, that's kind of-

    19. LF

      Yeah.

    20. WC

      ... the definition, isn't it? So, I think by no means do I have a healthy relationship with social media. I'm sure there's a way to, but I think I'm especially a weirdo in this space because it's easy to conflate, "Is this work? Is this-"

    21. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    22. WC

      "... not?" I can always say that it's for work-

    23. LF

      Right.

    24. WC

      ... you know?

    25. LF

      But I mean, you're, don't, don't you get the same kind of thing as you get from when a, a room full of people laugh at your jokes? 'Cause you're, I mean, I see, especially the way you do Twitter, it's an extension of your comedy in a way, so-

    26. WC

      I took a big break from Twitter, though. A really big break. I took like six months off or something for a while, because it was just like, it seemed like it was all kind of politics and it was just a little bit, it wasn't giving me dopamine (laughs) because there was like this weird, a lot of feedback. So, I had to take a break from it and then go back to it, 'cause I felt like I didn't have a healthy relationship.

    27. LF

      Have you ever tried, uh, I don't know if I believe him, but Joe Rogan seems to not read comments. Have you... And he's one of the only people at the scale, like at your level, who at least claims not to read. So, like, 'cause you and him swim in this, uh-

    28. WC

      Yeah.

    29. LF

      ... space of tense ideas-

    30. WC

      Yeah.

  16. 1:04:40 – 1:14:00

    Love, robots, and meaning: conditional love, business decisions, and terror management

    1. LF

      Yeah, what is it? Uh, well, first, an engineering question. I know, I know. You're, you're not an engineer, but how difficult do you think is it to build an AI system that you can have a deep, fulfilling, monogamous relationship with, sort of replace the human-to-human relationships that we value?

    2. WC

      I think anyone can fall in love with anything, you know. Like, how often have you looked back and someone ... Like, I ran into someone the other day that I was in love with, and I was like, "Hey." It was like, there was nothing there.

    3. LF

      Yeah.

    4. WC

      There was nothing there. Like, do you ... You know? Like, where you're able to go, like, "Oh, that was weird. Oh, right." You know?

    5. LF

      Uh-huh.

    6. WC

      I, I... We're able-

    7. LF

      You mean, it's from a distant past or something like that.

    8. WC

      Kind-

    9. LF

      Yeah.

    10. WC

      Yeah. When you're able to go, like, "I can't believe we had an incredible connection and now it's just ..." I do think that people will be in love with robots probably even more deeply with humans, because it's like when people mourn their animals when their animals die.

    11. LF

      Mm-hmm.

    12. WC

      They're always ... It's, uh, sometimes harder than mourning a human, because you can't go, "Well, he was kind of an asshole, but, like, he didn't pick me up from school." You know?

    13. LF

      Yeah.

    14. WC

      It's like you're able to get out of your grief a little bit. You're able to kind of be, "Oh, he was kind of judgmental," or, "She was kind..." You know. With a robot, it's there's something so pure about, and innocent and impish and childlike about it, that I think it probably will be much more conducive to a narcissistic love, for sure, at that. But it's not like, "Well, he cheated." No, she can't cheat. She can't leave you. She can't, you know?

    15. LF

      Well, if, if Bear Claw leaves your life, and maybe a new version-

    16. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    17. LF

      ... or somebody else will enter-

    18. WC

      There are-

    19. LF

      ... will you miss Bear Claw?

    20. WC

      For guys that have these sex robots, they're building a nursing home for the bodies-

    21. LF

      Wow.

    22. WC

      ... that are now rusting, 'cause they don't want to part with the bodies, 'cause they have such an intense emotional connection to it. I mean, it's kind of like a car club a little bit, you know?

    23. LF

      (laughs)

    24. WC

      Like, it's, it ... You know. But I'm not saying this is right. I'm not saying it's cool. It's weird. It's creepy. But we do anthropomorphize things with faces, and we do develop emotional connections to things. I mean, we're, there's certain ... Have you ever tried to, like, throw away ... I can't even throw away my teddy bear from when I was a kid. It's a piece of trash-... and it's upstairs. (laughs) Like, it's just, like, why can't I throw that away? It's bizarre. You know, and there's something kind of beautiful about that. There's something, it gives me hope in, in humans because I see humans do such horrific things all the time, and maybe I'm too, I see too much of it, frankly. But there's something kind of beautiful about the way we're able to, um, have emotional connections to objects, um, which, you know, a lot of, I mean, it's, I can't, kind of specifically, I think, Western, right, that we don't see objects as having souls. Like, that's kind of specifically us. But, um, I don't think it's so much that we're objectifying humans with these sex robots. We're kind of humanizing objects, right? So there's something kind of fascinating in our ability to do that because a lot of us don't humanize humans. So it's just a weird little place to play in, and I think a lot of people... I mean, a lot of people will be marrying these things is my guess.

    25. LF

      So you've asked the question, let me ask it of you. So what is love? You have a bit of a brilliant definition of love as being willing to die for someone who you, who you yourself want to kill.

    26. WC

      (laughs)

    27. LF

      So that's, that's, uh, that's kind of fun. First of all, that's brilliant. That's a really good definition. I think it'll stick with me for a long time.

    28. WC

      This is how little of a romantic I am. A plane went by when you said that, and my brain is like, "You're going to need to re-record that."

    29. LF

      (laughs)

    30. WC

      I don't want you to get into post and then not be able to use that. (laughs)

Episode duration: 1:16:57

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