Will Sasso: Comedy, MADtv, AI, Friendship, Madness, and Pro Wrestling | Lex Fridman Podcast #323

1. 0:00 – 1:03

   Introduction

   1. WSWill Sasso0:00

      ... once this whole thing falls apart and we are climbing the kudzu vines, uh, that spiral up the Sears Tower, like they say in Fight Club, Bobby will go back to his gatherer form and be happy as a pig in shit. Just walking around in a loin cloth with his bird hanging out, cracking jokes to people and climbing up on them for a stool lap dance or whatever he does.

   2. LFLex Fridman0:18

      You think some level of crazy is required for comedy?

   3. WSWill Sasso0:22

      Yeah.

   4. LFLex Fridman0:22

      Like, at some point. (laughs)

   5. WSWill Sasso0:24

      Yes.

   6. LFLex Fridman0:25

      Have there been low points in your life?

   7. WSWill Sasso0:27

      Uh, yeah, you know. You know, hey, eh, eh?

   8. LFLex Fridman0:30

      Eh?

   9. WSWill Sasso0:31

      You know. (laughs)

   10. LFLex Fridman0:35

       The following is a conversation with Will Sasso, a comedian, actor, podcaster, and someone I've been a fan of for many years, since MAD TV in the late '90s to recently with The 10-Minute Podcast, and now the new podcast called Dudesy. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now, dear friends, here's Will Sasso.

2. 1:03 – 7:10

   Video games

   1. LFLex Fridman1:04

      So let's call it the elephant in the room. You wore a black suit in a recent episode of Dudesy.

   2. WSWill Sasso1:10

      Yes.

   3. LFLex Fridman1:12

      (laughs) You wore a black suit again today. Uh, Shakespeare then Mark Twain said clothes make the man. Uh, what kind of man does a suit make you?

   4. WSWill Sasso1:22

      Well, me in particular, it makes me a fellow who did not get this dry cleaned in between, 'cause that episode of the show as we sit here now was around a week ago. So that's-

   5. LFLex Fridman1:33

      Okay.

   6. WSWill Sasso1:33

      ... that's the kind of man it makes me.

   7. LFLex Fridman1:35

      Well, the, uh, the nice thing is you're wearing pants, I think. Yes.

   8. WSWill Sasso1:38

      Yeah. I am wearing pants.

   9. LFLex Fridman1:39

      I don't think you were wearing pants in the episode.

   10. WSWill Sasso1:41

       That's correct. I, I prefer to wear shorts, but this was a special occasion, so I'm wearing pants.

   11. LFLex Fridman1:46

       Thank you.

   12. WSWill Sasso1:46

       And I thought it fitting, obviously, to just wear, you know, the black tie. And, uh, clothes do make the man. And I'm a, I, I would not consider myself to be a man of leisure, but I do enjoy shorts.

   13. LFLex Fridman1:58

       Yeah.

   14. WSWill Sasso1:58

       'Cause I, my legs get hot. So that's what kind of man the shorts make me.

   15. LFLex Fridman2:02

       How often do you wear a suit?

   16. WSWill Sasso2:04

       I fucking hate wearing suits.

   17. LFLex Fridman2:05

       So what is this? A statement of, uh... Is it ironic or is it, are you honoring the gods of this particular podcast?

   18. WSWill Sasso2:12

       I'm honoring the gods of this particular podcast would be a good way to put it.

   19. LFLex Fridman2:15

       Yeah.

   20. WSWill Sasso2:15

       Yes. No, this is, this is in, in reverence of and in dedication to you and our newfound friendship here.

   21. LFLex Fridman2:21

       Yes.

   22. WSWill Sasso2:21

       Which we are, uh, making, uh, on the podcast. You and I just met.

   23. LFLex Fridman2:27

       Yeah.

   24. WSWill Sasso2:27

       Everything that we're saying here is the f- are the first things that we're saying to each other. So I'm meeting you on common ground, dressed like-

   25. LFLex Fridman2:33

       Well, I've been actually a one-way friend of yours for many, many years, since MAD TV.

   26. WSWill Sasso2:38

       Oh.

   27. LFLex Fridman2:38

       Um, when did you start on MAD TV? So that was ma- I mean, in '90s?

   28. WSWill Sasso2:42

       '97, yeah.

   29. LFLex Fridman2:43

       '97. So I was a huge fan of yours and the cast was incredible. It's one of the funniest shows ever created.

   30. WSWill Sasso2:49

       Oh, cool.
3. 7:10 – 9:19

   Bobby Lee

   1. LFLex Fridman7:10

      Another person, the two people I'm a huge fan of from that time in MAD TV is Bobby Lee. He's a-

   2. WSWill Sasso7:15

      He plays Skyrim?

   3. LFLex Fridman7:15

      He's a huge fan of Skyrim.

   4. WSWill Sasso7:16

      He plays every...

   5. LFLex Fridman7:18

      So what Bobby Lee loves to do is to grind, do the boring task over and over, gather mushroom, like in Skyrim, you can fight dragons, you can fight all kinds of things, but you can also gather mushrooms and different ingredients and make potions and all that kind of s- He loves the ingredients that, he's the, you know, in the hunter-gatherer world, he's the gatherer.

   6. WSWill Sasso7:38

      He's the gatherer. Yeah. I've heard him, uh, described that way. And, and he likes to describe himself that way. Uh, I worked with Bobby not too long ago. He came and did a couple days on this thing we were shooting, and, uh, I was looking forward to catching up with my old pal. And if you know anything about Bobby Lee, you'd probably be able to predict that he spent that entire time playing farming on his iPad.

   7. LFLex Fridman7:59

      Yeah. Well, humans are a source of anxiety and trouble, so sometimes it's good to escape human interaction through video games.

   8. WSWill Sasso8:06

      Totally. Totally.

   9. LFLex Fridman8:06

      I'm with him on that. He's, he's one of the funniest people ever.

   10. WSWill Sasso8:11

       Totally.

   11. LFLex Fridman8:11

       What, what, what do you think is, uh, what do you think makes him funny? Just all the times you've worked with him. The, the non-standard, non-sequitur way of his being.

   12. WSWill Sasso8:22

       Bobby Lee is one of the most raw people, raw performers, who lets it all hang out to the degree that he will even get naked in front of his audience, which is usually a metaphor for someone doing standup. I'm bearing all.

   13. LFLex Fridman8:36

       Yeah.

   14. WSWill Sasso8:37

       I'm showing you everything.

   15. LFLex Fridman8:38

       Yeah.

   16. WSWill Sasso8:38

       And Bobby will just, uh, pull his bird out of his pants. Yeah. I don't think he understands metaphor too much. Uh-

   17. LFLex Fridman8:43

       He embodies metaphor.

   18. WSWill Sasso8:44

       Yes. He embodies metaphor. He's the gather- we call him the, uh, gathering metaphor. Bobby, the gatherer metaphor.

   19. LFLex Fridman8:50

       He's a metaphor for something else, for somebody else's life. Someday he'll be in the dictionary.

   20. WSWill Sasso8:56

       Yeah.

   21. LFLex Fridman8:57

       Representing some kind of concept. Maybe the metaphor itself.

   22. WSWill Sasso9:00

       Yeah. Once, once this whole thing falls apart and we are climbing the kudzu vines, uh, that spiral up the Sears Tower, like they say in Fight Club, Bobby will go back to his gatherer form and be happy as a pig in shit. Just walking around in a loin cloth with his bird hanging out, cracking jokes to people and climbing up on them for a stool lap dance or whatever

4. 9:19 – 16:50

   Stand-up comedy

   1. WSWill Sasso9:19

      he does.

   2. LFLex Fridman9:19

      So, uh, I'd love to dig into something he, he did... You guys did a lot of great podcasts together. He asked you in a very uncomfortable process of why you don't do standup. So let me ask you, do you hate money?

   3. WSWill Sasso9:33

      (laughs) Well, I'm originally from Canada. Yeah.

   4. LFLex Fridman9:36

      Yes.

   5. WSWill Sasso9:36

      So I'm a, I'm, yeah, I'm a, I'm a fricking pinko, uh, socialist. Is that what, uh, where you come from? That's not a nice thing to say.

   6. LFLex Fridman9:44

      I, I thought the Soviet Union, that is a nice thing to say. Like comrade-

   7. WSWill Sasso9:48

      Could call someone a pinko (laughs) socialist.

   8. LFLex Fridman9:50

      Right? Comrade.

   9. WSWill Sasso9:51

      Yeah.

   10. LFLex Fridman9:51

       He's a, he is a good, he is a good socialist.

   11. WSWill Sasso9:53

       Yeah. Yeah.

   12. LFLex Fridman9:54

       Wears red.

   13. WSWill Sasso9:55

       (laughs) .

   14. LFLex Fridman9:56

       Likes some bold colors. Yeah.

   15. WSWill Sasso9:58

       Yeah.

   16. LFLex Fridman9:58

       There, there was an interesting tension in your voice and the way you talked about it. There's just not a source of happiness for you. You, you, you respect the art form, but it was not something that you were connected to. You, you felt connected to.

   17. WSWill Sasso10:09

       That's a good way to put it. Yeah. I, I respect the art form, uh, a lot. I, and I grew up with all the albums and stuff. I had an older brother and sister who, so I, you know, we had the, we had George Carlin, we had, uh, you know, Richard Pryor, we had Robert Klein, we had Gilda Live, the Gilda Radner, uh, concert. We had all, we had all sorts of stuff. But, you know, I don't know. There's a lot of, there's a lot of reasons. I, I do feel like a, a career in show business i- is, you know, they, it never goes the way you plan, uh, like most things. And I was fortunate enough to get started outside of my native Vancouver, or in my native Vancouver. I grew up in the burbs outside and there was a lot of industry there. So I was fortunate enough to get started as an actor when I was like 16. So there, there, yeah, there was, there were some times early on where I came up with some standup stuff and did it. But, uh, yeah, I quickly abandoned it. And then, you know, you go through, you do MAD TV and stuff, and then, and that's where my, and this is gonna sound weird. Do I sound as anxietal as I did when I was on Bobby's podcast trying to avoid his questions?

   18. LFLex Fridman11:18

       Well, he was giving you this face this whole time that was making the whole just atmosphere feel full of anxiety. So I'm trying not to give you the face. Um, the whole time I'm saying play cool, play cool.

   19. WSWill Sasso11:28

       Yeah. Okay. Uh-

   20. LFLex Fridman11:30

       Play it cool, Lex.

   21. WSWill Sasso11:31

       (laughs) Play it cool. You said it out loud a couple times.

   22. LFLex Fridman11:33

       I did.

   23. WSWill Sasso11:33

       Just so you know. You cut that out.

   24. LFLex Fridman11:34

       Play it cool.

   25. WSWill Sasso11:35

       Play it cool, dude.

   26. LFLex Fridman11:36

       Cut it out. Cut it out.

   27. WSWill Sasso11:37

       Maintain, bro. Here's what I'll say. There's two ways to do it. I think it's lame when someone who's done one thing for a while goes and starts doing standup outta nowhere 'cause I think it's an art form that's, uh, under attack because it's not like anything else. You need... Although now you can of course, you know, make whatever you want. It's the era of self-publishing as far as making a product and putting it out there, which is getting easier of course, and I can't wait to talk to you about that with, with AI and how it's changing art. Um, but, uh, the, i- in standup, all you need is a, is a microphone and, you know, perhaps, uh, it would be good to have some mental illness and then you can just run up there and, uh, uh, talk forever. And I say this to f- to, you know, comedians, it's like, you guys have to deal with just an...... influx of people who aren't sure why they're doing comedy. I would ask comedians and, like... I mean, not good ones. Good ones, you know what they're doing. But everyone else, like, "What are you doing? Why? Why are you doing standup?" Having said that, I am allergic to money.

   28. LFLex Fridman12:40

       Yeah. Do you think they have a good answer for that, why they're doing it? 'Cause I actually, like, when I'm in Austin, I like going to open mics, just listening.

   29. WSWill Sasso12:47

       Mm-hmm.

   30. LFLex Fridman12:47

       It's inspiring to me, both the funny and the unfunny people, because they've been doing it for several years, sometimes over a decade.
5. 16:50 – 18:12

   Robin Williams

   1. LFLex Fridman16:50

      So, Nietzsche said that every profound spirit needs a mask. Uh, y-... like you say, you don't like to talk about s-... In your comedy, you don't like to talk about stuff that's personal to you.

   2. WSWill Sasso17:02

      Yeah, I do not-

   3. LFLex Fridman17:03

      Uh, what is that? What... If you were to psychoanalyze yourself-

   4. WSWill Sasso17:06

      (laughs)

   5. LFLex Fridman17:07

      ... do you think it's just not something you find funny or is it s-... are you running from something? Um, and, uh, it's not your fault, Will.

   6. WSWill Sasso17:16

      (laughs) "It's not your fault, Will." Um-

   7. LFLex Fridman17:18

      Speaking of another really great comedic actor who was also a serious actor, Robin Williams.

   8. WSWill Sasso17:23

      One of the best serious actors. I mean, I mean, I, I... And, you know, one of the funniest people of all time, but as great, as incredible as he was as a funny man, as a, as a standup and a performer, I almost like his, his serious stuff better.

   9. LFLex Fridman17:39

      Can I ask you a question about that? What, what do you make of the, that he committed suicide?

   10. WSWill Sasso17:43

       I think it's... (sighs) I think it's... I mean, it's super depressing. I, I, I've referred to him as, like, the Jesus Christ of, of, uh, depression. It's almost like he died for others' depression. You know what I mean? Like...

   11. LFLex Fridman17:55

       (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

   12. WSWill Sasso17:56

       You'd look at someone-

   13. LFLex Fridman17:57

       Yeah.

   14. WSWill Sasso17:57

       ... like that and go, "Wait a minute, you're a rock star." Like, you don't... You could just check out if you're not liking your life. And of course, something like suicide begs that you look a little deeper and, uh, realize how tortured (laughs) the human mind can, can

6. 18:12 – 26:33

   Loneliness and depression

   1. WSWill Sasso18:12

      make someone.

   2. LFLex Fridman18:13

      Is there some aspect to s-... You're, you know, we're in LA. Is there some aspect of celebrity that is isolating, that can make you feel really lonely?

   3. WSWill Sasso18:21

      Not me. I don't feel... No, not really. (laughs)

   4. LFLex Fridman18:24

      You feel the love?

   5. WSWill Sasso18:25

      No, I just feel like I'm not... I mean, it's like...... I don't know, I've always kind of had a small group of friends and those people don't... You know, it's like, I've known the same people for years and years.

   6. LFLex Fridman18:37

      You never really felt a celebrity, really?

   7. WSWill Sasso18:38

      Nah. In L.A. it's hard to, it's hard for people. Nobody cares. They see you and then the next minute they see so-and-so.

   8. LFLex Fridman18:45

      Yeah.

   9. WSWill Sasso18:45

      So, it's like, you know, I'm the guy from that... "Oh, are you that, uh, Mike and Molly, right?" No.

   10. LFLex Fridman18:52

       Yeah.

   11. WSWill Sasso18:52

       No. Close. King of, uh, King... You, you shave your head? You go bald? Are you a king of Queens? Nope. It's not me.

   12. LFLex Fridman18:58

       (laughs) .

   13. WSWill Sasso18:58

       So, close. "You're... Wow, shit."

   14. LFLex Fridman19:01

       Uh...

   15. WSWill Sasso19:01

       "You look, uh, you used to be the Mountain on, uh, Game-"

   16. LFLex Fridman19:04

       Yeah, exactly.

   17. WSWill Sasso19:04

       "... Game of Thrones. You look like shit. What happened?"

   18. LFLex Fridman19:05

       (laughs) .

   19. WSWill Sasso19:05

       "You been just eating fried dough?"

   20. LFLex Fridman19:08

       Yeah.

   21. WSWill Sasso19:09

       Um, yeah. That's what's up. Can't lift any weights anymore. I'm at the gym doing, like, 15 pounds with shoulder press, "Ah!" And people coming up to me, "You used to be a dragon killer, dude."

   22. LFLex Fridman19:20

       Half a man you used to be.

   23. WSWill Sasso19:22

       Yeah.

   24. LFLex Fridman19:23

       What's... Have there been low points in your life? Sorry to go there, but...

   25. WSWill Sasso19:27

       No. Uh, yeah, you know. Eh, you know. Hey. Eh?

   26. LFLex Fridman19:31

       Eh?

   27. WSWill Sasso19:31

       Yeah, eh?

   28. LFLex Fridman19:32

       (laughs) .

   29. WSWill Sasso19:34

       (laughs) Yeah, there's... Everybody has a low point in life. The operative-

   30. LFLex Fridman19:39

       Do you suffer from, like, depression, any of those kinds of things?
7. 26:33 – 33:22

   John Candy

   1. WSWill Sasso26:33

   2. LFLex Fridman26:33

      But you loved the idea of being a- an actor. Like who, um, you mentioned John Candy in, uh, Planes, Trains-

   3. WSWill Sasso26:40

      Planes, Trains, and Automobiles.

   4. LFLex Fridman26:42

      ... and Automobiles. Yeah.

   5. WSWill Sasso26:42

      Yeah.

   6. LFLex Fridman26:42

      It's one of my favorite movies.

   7. WSWill Sasso26:43

      Yeah.

   8. LFLex Fridman26:43

      You said it's one of yours. W- what do you think that makes that movie work? What, what do you, what, um, and when you, when you talk about enjoying that movie, do you enjoy just the raw comedy or do you enjoy, like, the friendship and, uh, and the love that's there even though on the surface it doesn't make any sense that there should be a friendship there?

   9. WSWill Sasso27:05

      I mean, that's such an important element to that film. But, uh, you know, as a kid I just loved the comedy.

   10. LFLex Fridman27:11

       Yeah.

   11. WSWill Sasso27:11

       And then I, it's been a nostalgic favorite of mine, like, it's my favorite movie. Uh, but it's also, uh, it's just legit my favorite movie because as you get older and you start watching it, you realize it's what, it's what John Hughes as the filmmaker and what John Candy particularly and, but also Steve Martin are doing in the film that makes it such a work of art, which is loneliness is there in every moment of that film. And John Candy is n- n- he embodies Del Griffith, his character in the film. He, he, Del Griffith is a lonely guy. And John Candy... But, but Del Griffith is also a very friendly guy and a, and a shower curtain ring salesman and-

   12. LFLex Fridman27:54

       (laughs)

   13. WSWill Sasso27:54

       ... knows everybody in the Midwest and runs around to motels and has meaningful conversations-

   14. LFLex Fridman27:59

       Yeah.

   15. WSWill Sasso27:59

       ... with the, uh, "Evening, Gus." You know, whoever-

   16. LFLex Fridman28:01

       Yeah.

   17. WSWill Sasso28:01

       ... he's talking to. Um, uh, but there's loneliness there all the time. And, uh, you know, this is a character, the, these, the film is filled with loneliness and it's not until, you know, the second last scene when he's at the train station, you know, "Del, what are you doing here? You thought, I thought you were going home. What are you doing here?" Um, that's a very good Neil, Neil Page from the movie. Thank you. Uh, it, that's when you realize how lonely he is.

   18. LFLex Fridman28:30

       We'll add applause in post, yeah.

   19. WSWill Sasso28:31

       (laughs) Cheers. That's when you realize how lonely he is. And I think that's the element from the film that... I mean, look, you know, nowadays I, I feel like, and I've been saying this for a long time, but John Candy would have won an Academy Award hands down for that film. It's just they didn't do that with comedies back then-

   20. LFLex Fridman28:48

       (exhales) Yeah.

   21. WSWill Sasso28:48

       ... until the year after that movie came out with A Fish Called Wanda.

   22. LFLex Fridman28:51

       Yeah. And then it's, I mean, still comedies don't get respected enough.

   23. WSWill Sasso28:55

       (laughs)

   24. LFLex Fridman28:55

       Robin Williams he got, I guess he got an Oscar for-

   25. WSWill Sasso28:59

       Good Will Hunting.

   26. LFLex Fridman28:59

       ... Good, Good Will Hunting. Um, Jim Carrey, did he ever get an Oscar?

   27. WSWill Sasso29:04

       I don't know. I don't believe so, no.

   28. LFLex Fridman29:06

       Yeah, they don't get... You don't... Well, but that's not even, if you did, it wouldn't be for comedies. It just, I mean, there's some things that are, um... Planes, Trains, and Automobiles, would you even put that as a com- I guess it's a comedy.

   29. WSWill Sasso29:21

       Yeah. I mean it-

   30. LFLex Fridman29:21

       But there's a, there is a loneliness and depth that permeates the whole movie.
8. 33:22 – 39:10

   Friendship

   1. LFLex Fridman33:22

      yeah. Uh, you have some weird friends, unorthodox friends. So, so at least in the public sphere.

   2. WSWill Sasso33:29

      Oh, yeah.

   3. LFLex Fridman33:30

      Uh, from Bobby Lee, Brian Callhan, all those kinds of folks from the MADtv days, I'm sure there's others. What does it mean to be a good friend?

   4. WSWill Sasso33:38

      Here in LA? Or just in general?

   5. LFLex Fridman33:40

      In the world. In the world.

   6. WSWill Sasso33:42

      In the world. Will Sasso-

   7. LFLex Fridman33:42

      Is LA somehow different?

   8. WSWill Sasso33:44

      ... world friend. I think it is different here. I think it is. I think people are-

   9. LFLex Fridman33:46

      I think there's a little bit of a career kind of, uh, negotiation shuffling around, that kinda stuff. Why is it different?

   10. WSWill Sasso33:52

       Not... Well, I, I just mean, I mean, I mean that it's just kinda hard here to, to make time-

   11. LFLex Fridman34:01

       Oh.

   12. WSWill Sasso34:01

       ... for everybody. There's so, there's, it's always been a city to me that is like, will keep you so busy. And every time I go home to Vancouver, after a few days I start to get a little stir crazy. And I think that being here in, in LA, I go to sleep with 100 things that I still have to do. And you never, you're never out of stuff to do. And if you, um, you know, when you ask about are you nuts or whatever, if you're crazy, I mean, look, every, all the weirdest people from every high school in the United States is like, "Oh, I'm gonna make it in LA," you know? Everyone just comes here. And, uh, "Just another freak in the freak kingdom," as they say at the end of, uh, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

   13. LFLex Fridman34:41

       (laughs)

   14. WSWill Sasso34:41

       That was a very good Robin Williams impersonation. That was my-

   15. LFLex Fridman34:44

       Yeah.

   16. WSWill Sasso34:44

       ... Robin Williams as Johnny Depp as Hunter S. Thompson.

   17. LFLex Fridman34:47

       Yeah.

   18. WSWill Sasso34:47

       "It's not your fault, Will."

   19. LFLex Fridman34:49

       Good. It's pretty good.

   20. WSWill Sasso34:50

       Thank you.

   21. LFLex Fridman34:50

       Could have been you, Fear and Loathing. Would that be interesting?

   22. WSWill Sasso34:52

       In Fear and Loathing?

   23. LFLex Fridman34:53

       Yeah, it'd be interesting.

   24. WSWill Sasso34:54

       I would have liked to play his attorney, the, the role that, um, that-

   25. LFLex Fridman34:58

       Oh, yeah.

   26. WSWill Sasso34:58

       ... Benicio del Toro gained weight for.

   27. LFLex Fridman35:00

       Yeah. Yeah.

   28. WSWill Sasso35:00

       That would have been cool. He's just say- he's just, "One stroke over the line."

   29. LFLex Fridman35:04

       Yeah.

   30. WSWill Sasso35:04

       Like, uh, chewing his face off. I could have done that. Um. (laughs)
9. 39:10 – 44:09

   Ten Minute Podcast

   1. WSWill Sasso39:10

   2. LFLex Fridman39:10

      Uh, so you've done a couple podcasts.

   3. WSWill Sasso39:13

      Yeah.

   4. LFLex Fridman39:13

      Do- Done, so w- we gotta talk about Dudesy a little bit. But first, you did for several years, you did the 10-minute podcast.

   5. WSWill Sasso39:20

      Yeah.

   6. LFLex Fridman39:21

      (laughs) I mean, everything is hilarious about that podcast, including the fact that it's 10 minutes.

   7. WSWill Sasso39:26

      (laughs) Right.

   8. LFLex Fridman39:27

      I mean, every- every- it's ridiculous, it's absurd. The dynamic is hilarious. It's you, Bryan Callen, Chris D'Elia. There, I, I don't, I don't know exactly why it's, why it works so well, but it did, it worked really well. I think it's because the, yeah, you were having fun probably. I mean, that's, that would really came through, uh, that it was friends just talking shit, and the tension, the beautiful tension, and the absurdity that came out.

   9. WSWill Sasso39:53

      Yeah.

   10. LFLex Fridman39:53

       Uh, what-

   11. WSWill Sasso39:54

       Sure.

   12. LFLex Fridman39:54

       (laughs)

   13. WSWill Sasso39:55

       (sniffs)

   14. LFLex Fridman39:55

       What, what was the story of making that podcast? What, how did that came to be? Uh, why do you think it was as good as it was?

   15. WSWill Sasso40:02

       I don't know. I feel like that podcast was like, it was our, our, who we kind of are but on steroids or something?

   16. LFLex Fridman40:12

       Yeah, yeah.

   17. WSWill Sasso40:12

       Like, you know, uh, each person, you know, Bryan's gonna be like extra manly and, and, uh-

   18. LFLex Fridman40:19

       Can you get any more manly than he already is?

   19. WSWill Sasso40:21

       No, yeah. No, it's-

   20. LFLex Fridman40:21

       It's very difficult to imagine.

   21. WSWill Sasso40:22

       ... he reaches though. Uh, and yeah, we just kinda, it's, I- I feel like as goofballs, we knew each other's line.

   22. LFLex Fridman40:30

       Yeah.

   23. WSWill Sasso40:31

       Like, here's the line you don't cross. I feel like those guys don't really have one.

   24. LFLex Fridman40:35

       Yeah.

   25. WSWill Sasso40:35

       Uh, but at least they knew mine. Um, and, and yeah, we were able to just-

   26. LFLex Fridman40:40

       Yeah.

   27. WSWill Sasso40:41

       ... goof around. And I did it with them for three years. And then Chad, who I'm doing Dudesy with, and my pal Tommy Blaccio, who's a, another writer/producer like Chad, they came on. And yeah, all, all told, we did, I did like, uh, seven years of that thing? Six, five, six, seven? I don't remember.

   28. LFLex Fridman41:02

       Do you think it ever comes back in some s- small form, as, as a 20-minute podcast or something like that?

   29. WSWill Sasso41:08

       (laughs)

   30. LFLex Fridman41:09

       I mean, is there, uh, 'cause it's one of the most requested. I mean, there's, you, you have a huge fan base.
10. 44:09 – 52:28

    Dudesy podcast

    1. LFLex Fridman44:09

       All right. Uh, how did Dudesy come to be?

    2. WSWill Sasso44:12

       Dudesy?

    3. LFLex Fridman44:13

       And what the hell is Dudesy?

    4. WSWill Sasso44:14

       Dudesy is the first podcast, and this is exciting that you've asked me to come here today, uh, because to hear what you would have to say about it or what you would ask about it. It is the first podcast that has been, that is run completely by and essentially, I like to say, curated by an AI. Um, we were approached by a company that had this proprietary AI that wants to develop the podcast into the future and figure out exactly what it takes to make the best podcast ever. And it was, all we, all we, we knew from the top and what they really wanted was two people who were actually friends and could be meaningful in the podcast space based on whatever information they had.

    5. LFLex Fridman44:57

       Is the company CIA and are they testing technology to control the populous through chatbots?

    6. WSWill Sasso45:03

       I'm sorry. I'm not at liberty to share that information.

    7. LFLex Fridman45:05

       You are, yeah, who gave you the suit?

    8. WSWill Sasso45:08

       (laughs)

    9. LFLex Fridman45:08

       Where did you get the suit? Where did you get the suit, Will?

    10. WSWill Sasso45:11

        Yeah. Well, the C-

    11. LFLex Fridman45:11

        JC Penney?

    12. WSWill Sasso45:12

        CIA stands for something different in here.

    13. LFLex Fridman45:14

        Okay.

    14. WSWill Sasso45:14

        I mean, you know, it doesn't mean like, you know-

    15. LFLex Fridman45:16

        All right.

    16. WSWill Sasso45:16

        ... Central Intelligence Agency.

    17. LFLex Fridman45:17

        Okay.

    18. WSWill Sasso45:17

        And probably it's just-

    19. LFLex Fridman45:18

        It's a different, it's a-

    20. WSWill Sasso45:19

        Yeah, it's a-

    21. LFLex Fridman45:20

        ... Canadian, uh, information-

    22. WSWill Sasso45:22

        Canadian International Apparel.

    23. LFLex Fridman45:24

        Yeah.

    24. WSWill Sasso45:24

        Yeah, the Canadian International Apparel company hit us up.

    25. LFLex Fridman45:27

        Yeah.

    26. WSWill Sasso45:27

        Chad and I. Um, well Chad's a super weirdo.

    27. LFLex Fridman45:31

        Yeah.

    28. WSWill Sasso45:31

        You would get a kick outta him, I know. You guys, you, you, you strike me as very similar in some ways. And-

    29. LFLex Fridman45:36

        I'll take that as a compliment by the way.

    30. WSWill Sasso45:37

        It is, and it is.
11. 52:28 – 1:03:47

    Acting

    1. WSWill Sasso52:28

       been a hoot.

    2. LFLex Fridman52:29

       (sighs) So from the acting perspective, um, you know, a lot of people like Daniel Day-Lewis will- will see acting just like as you described, which is you have your roles, you embrace those roles and then you disappear. You don't, um, you don't- you don't do podcasts, you don't do any of that kind of stuff. Your art is your art. So is that- does that part of you feels that way?

    3. WSWill Sasso52:51

       I think so.

    4. LFLex Fridman52:53

       Is that the actor side of you?

    5. WSWill Sasso52:54

       Yeah. Any time I get to do something that I don't get a chance to do much of or something that people haven't seen me do much of or that I've done on some scale that isn't- hasn't been very wide and not a lot of people have seen it, that's the stuff that I get really excited about. Um, I don't know why I'm... I don't know wha- I don't know why necessarily (laughs) . I haven't answered that question yet in my life, like, what it is about being an actor that I love so much because it's not like I don't like to... It's not like I'm trying to get away from myself and play other characters and stuff and not be myself. Um, but it is, it has always been fun to- to just be other people and escape.

    6. LFLex Fridman53:37

       Yeah, is there some aspect to The Impressions where you become that person? Is that, like... What- what- what's that like to, um... I- I suppose acting is a full-on version of that, you really, at its best, become the character. Is there some fun in that?

    7. WSWill Sasso53:55

       Yeah, absolutely. If you can play a character for long enough, um, and then jump out of it, uh, that's a lot of fun.

    8. LFLex Fridman54:05

       Mm-hmm.

    9. WSWill Sasso54:05

       Like, I did this movie, like, uh, four or five years ago called The Inside Game about the NBA gambling scandal that, there- there's a Netflix documentary arou- about it right now. And that character, I played, uh, Jimmy Batista, Baa-Baa the Sheep, uh, who's, you know, this guy who's this bookie and ra-ra-ra. And it's a very... He's... There's a lot going on with him. He's- he's, you know, he's running numbers with the mob and stuff and there's a lot of money changing hands. That character was so... I got to be, get so deep into that character that coming out of it was- was a little odd. Or as weird as this sounds, The Three Stooges was hard for me to g-... I found that I had, uh, some of Curly's mannerisms just automatically. I could not stop them. When people, when I- when I would talk to people, they would- they would come ou-... I wasn't... I'm not doing it on purpose, but I don't wanna do that. Like, I'm ready to shed it 'cause I've been-

    10. LFLex Fridman55:05

        (laughs)

    11. WSWill Sasso55:06

        ... working on it for months and months at that point as far as getting the thing down and then you- then you gotta shoot. And then, uh, for me it's always- I always wanna change the stuff I did the day before. I'm like that where I'm like, "I could have done it better," and this and that, and uh...

    12. LFLex Fridman55:21

        That stayed with you, that character stayed with you a little bit.

    13. WSWill Sasso55:23

        Totally, yeah.

    14. LFLex Fridman55:24

        I just feel like with actors-... sometimes when you listen to interviews, they have spent so much time sort of living inside other characters that they-

    15. WSWill Sasso55:35

        Yeah.

    16. LFLex Fridman55:35

        ... they almost don't have a depth of personality themselves. Like, a depth. Like, I, I don't mean that as a negative thing. It's just, like, it feels like the art form at its best is pretending to be other people. O- or, like, I d- and even pretending sounds negative, but, like-

    17. WSWill Sasso55:49

        No, pretending.

    18. LFLex Fridman55:50

        ... bringing certain characters to life.

    19. WSWill Sasso55:52

        Yeah. Yeah. Embodying.

    20. LFLex Fridman55:54

        That's the art form. Embodying.

    21. WSWill Sasso55:55

        Look, a weird thing happened while we were doing Stooges, 'cause you've got a very heavy blueprint.

    22. LFLex Fridman55:59

        Yeah.

    23. WSWill Sasso55:59

        We're following this very clear blueprint that the Stooges left for everybody. And it, for Stooge fans and people enjoying the movie, it's gotta be this. You take your toolbox that you're used to bringing to a comedy movie, you leave it, you leave it behind. The only tools I'm bringing are the ones that he used. And a weird thing started happening where I would... I always saw the whole thing happening with the real Stooges in black and white. So I, if we're about to shoot a scene, I would just m- you know, think about... I mean, aside from all the other preparation, you know, you know everything and what you're supposed to do, and I've been watching so much of it. And the three of us are, we're pretty much left to come up with a lot of the, the, the striking combinations and all the stuff, which is all real smack and, and all this crap. And the stuff that we were doing that was very Stooge-y, uh, you're preparing all that stuff. But something else was happening before you jump into a scene and the unknown of now we're shooting it and here are these, uh, parameters w- within to shoot this scene, I could still see it as them doing it. So much so that when I saw the movie at the premiere, I was like, "Who's this big fuck doing..." 'Cause I'm not Curly to me. Curly is Curly. But I feel like-

    24. LFLex Fridman57:09

        So you're seeing yourself in black and white almost.

    25. WSWill Sasso57:11

        I was seeing him. I wasn't-

    26. LFLex Fridman57:12

        Him?

    27. WSWill Sasso57:12

        Yeah. I was only seeing him. I c-

    28. LFLex Fridman57:14

        You were just channeling in some fundamental way.

    29. WSWill Sasso57:16

        I- in some weird way, you're channeling him-

    30. LFLex Fridman57:19

        (laughs) Yeah.
12. 1:03:47 – 1:09:15

    Impressions

    1. LFLex Fridman1:03:47

       what about im- impressions? Is there similarity between that and acting? Do you... Is there some fundamental way in which you become the person?

    2. WSWill Sasso1:03:59

       If you have a couple of the things, you can just fill in the blanks. And I think the illusion is that people think that that person would say that and do that. And that's where the illusion of, oh, he really embodies the character.

    3. LFLex Fridman1:04:12

       Mm-hmm.

    4. WSWill Sasso1:04:12

       It's like, once you know someone's mannerisms, you can essentially portray a person from the outside in.

    5. LFLex Fridman1:04:20

       Yeah.

    6. WSWill Sasso1:04:20

       'Cause you have all the stuff on the outside, and you can do it and complete the illusion.

    7. LFLex Fridman1:04:25

       And if it's for humor's sake, you're gonna caricature it-

    8. WSWill Sasso1:04:28

       Totally.

    9. LFLex Fridman1:04:28

       ... therefore making the whole illusion s- s- stronger.

    10. WSWill Sasso1:04:32

        And also weirder. Like, I like to-

    11. LFLex Fridman1:04:35

        Yeah.

    12. WSWill Sasso1:04:35

        On MAD TV, if I did something two or three times, I'd get bored of it and I'd start changing it and, you know. Now he talks like this. And it's like, "What are you doing?" I'm like, "I don't know. It's, fuckin', no one's... It's late at night, do whatever you want."

    13. LFLex Fridman1:04:46

        But people still kinda know (laughs) that it's that character. Is- es- especially if you just call it out. Yeah.

    14. WSWill Sasso1:04:52

        There aren't many impersonations that I listen to myself do and go, "Ooh, that's a good one." You know? Like, a lot of people, like... Like, I think Frank Caliendo is, like-

    15. LFLex Fridman1:05:03

        Yeah.

    16. WSWill Sasso1:05:04

        ... the greatest impersonator of all ti- he's the best, period.

    17. LFLex Fridman1:05:07

        It's ridiculous.

    18. WSWill Sasso1:05:08

        It's ridiculous.

    19. LFLex Fridman1:05:08

        Yeah.

    20. WSWill Sasso1:05:08

        And he's got a record button and a broadcast ability that nobody has. I- I really tru- there's... He's cracked impersonations that I'm like, "How is he... How does he find... He's got such an ear, but then he's got all the other tools." Uh, I remember actually, my last season of MAD TV was also his first season.

    21. LFLex Fridman1:05:31

        Hmm.

    22. WSWill Sasso1:05:31

        And he comes up to me when I met him, and we're just up there in the writer's offices, and he goes, "Hey, nice to meet you." And he goes, "Is this Louie Anderson?" 'Cause I was doing a Louie on the show, and he goes, "Louie Anderson." And I go, "Yeah?" He goes, "Hey, you're doing it wrong." And I was like, "Oh, am I, junior?" You know? And he goes, he goes, "Yeah, you know, 'cause you do this, but you gotta throw it up here sometimes." I was like, "Oh my God, can I use that?" "Of course." And then we became, you know, we became fast friends, but-

    23. LFLex Fridman1:05:54

        His John Madden is amazing.

    24. WSWill Sasso1:05:56

        Ridiculous.

    25. LFLex Fridman1:05:56

        I forget. It's just, it's ridiculous.

    26. WSWill Sasso1:05:59

        Ridiculous.

    27. LFLex Fridman1:05:59

        He really, really, really embodies the person. And sometimes not even with a c- caricature. It's like it becomes the person. So strange.

    28. WSWill Sasso1:06:06

        Totally.

    29. LFLex Fridman1:06:07

        Yeah.

    30. WSWill Sasso1:06:08

        I- I- I kinda feel like, you know, do the impersonation and then for- not forget you're doing it, but forget everything else.
13. 1:09:15 – 1:40:43

    Artificial intelligence

    1. LFLex Fridman1:09:15

       there is, I mean speaking of Dudesy, is, is, is it, is it possible to capture the essence... How difficult is it to capture the essence of a human being when you're doing impressions? You know, that we are moving towards the future when AI potentially... This kind of avatar world where we're goi- going to have AI representatives of who we are. The really interesting one is after we pass away, sort of, um, our relatives may want us to stick around in some form.

    2. WSWill Sasso1:09:44

       Yeah.

    3. LFLex Fridman1:09:44

       And, you know, at one sense that might be scary, but in one sense it's kind of beautiful because the, the essence of the human being persists so you can still bring joy to the, to the people that love you and that kind of stuff. How difficult is it to capture that? Like, if you were to try to capture yourself, you think... How difficult would it be to, for an AI system to create a Will Sasso avatar that persists?

    4. WSWill Sasso1:10:07

       Well, I think it's impossible. I think it's absolutely impossible. I'll get into co- a- arguments about this stuff with Chad on the show almost every episode. Um, lately with, you know, Midjourney and DALL·E and all this, all the art-

    5. LFLex Fridman1:10:22

       And the other stuff.

    6. WSWill Sasso1:10:23

       ... AIs, and now it's moving into video and, and Chad would maintain, "Hey, pretty soon we're not gonna need Netflix. You're just gonna go, 'I want to see Stallone do this movie and it's about this,'" and he plays that and then here it comes and you watch it.

    7. LFLex Fridman1:10:36

       Hmm.

    8. WSWill Sasso1:10:37

       I don't think that that crosses over to the human experience. Uh, this is also a guy I like to bug Chad and say that, uh, he wears a tag around his neck 'cause he wants to be cryogenically frozen and it's all set up. He's at the, it's somewhere in Arizona or something?

    9. LFLex Fridman1:10:54

       Yeah.

    10. WSWill Sasso1:10:54

        Like, it's, I forget what it's called.

    11. LFLex Fridman1:10:56

        All the, all the fun things are in Arizona.

    12. WSWill Sasso1:10:57

        Yeah. And he's got literally the tag around his neck, which I say, "If you're, if I'm around when you die, I will rip that off for you. I'll put you in my garage freezer and then 24 hours later I'll saw your head off with a bread knife."

    13. LFLex Fridman1:11:09

        Yeah.

    14. WSWill Sasso1:11:09

        "And I'll deliver that to whomever. And it's not, you're not gonna, you're not coming back, okay?" He's like, "Yes, we are living forever whether we like it or not," and I disagree. I don't think you can find... (laughs) If I did stand up, then, uh, there would be enough information for an AI to completely duplicate me 'cause I'm up on stage just clearing my throat all over people doing therapy that way.

    15. LFLex Fridman1:11:34

        Yeah.

    16. WSWill Sasso1:11:34

        And, uh, so, and people paying a two drink minimum to hear it. But as it stands, unless it's something like Dudesy, an AI that literally has access to everything that I've shared, um, everything that is observable, even the stuff where our phones are, or the NSA or whatever it is listening to us, uh, finding out what algo to punch us into and what shoes to buy on Instagram, I still don't think it's gonna have enough information to duplicate me, especially to my family or my friends. It's gonna be like that Black Mirror episode where the gal brings her, her guy back and then after a while he gets pretty creepy. Uh, you know? They have-

    17. LFLex Fridman1:12:13

        But it's also possible that if you interviewed your friends and family what they love about you, the things they would list is, is pretty, it's a small list. They love you deeply but the list is small. Like, the thing that really we appreciate about each other is pretty small. That said, to deliver on that small quirks and uniqueness, it might require some deep intelligence that only humans currently possess.

    18. WSWill Sasso1:12:41

        That's a really good point.

    19. LFLex Fridman1:12:42

        Yeah. I-

    20. WSWill Sasso1:12:42

        Do you think that it's gonna be possible to keep a person around?

    21. LFLex Fridman1:12:47

        Yes, I, I think, um, I think, I think there'll be definitely possible to keep the essence of a person in a digital world pretty soon, yeah.

    22. WSWill Sasso1:12:56

        Wow.

    23. LFLex Fridman1:12:57

        And I think they're gonna start to have questions about what are the ethics of that, what are the rules around that?

    24. WSWill Sasso1:13:03

        Yeah.

    25. LFLex Fridman1:13:04

        Because if you can have digital forms of Will Sasso, the kind of things that people would want to do with their Will Sasso-

    26. WSWill Sasso1:13:09

        Right.

    27. LFLex Fridman1:13:09

        ... in the vir- virtual world, I can only imagine.

    28. WSWill Sasso1:13:11

        Sure.

    29. LFLex Fridman1:13:12

        Uh, probably porn and sexual kinds of things.

    30. WSWill Sasso1:13:16

        Yeah, my stuff tha- then that's just 'cause I'm an international sex symbol so I'm okay with it.

Episode duration: 2:21:55