Yannis Pappas: History and Comedy | Lex Fridman Podcast #175

1. 0:00 – 2:25

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with Yannis Pappas, a comedian who co-hosted the podcast History Hyenas that I came across when I was researching the Battle of Crete from World War II. He and his co-host were hilarious in their rants about history and about life. The chemistry they have is probably the best of any co-hosted comedy podcast or even podcast in general that I've ever heard. As of a few weeks ago, unfortunately, History Hyenas is no more, at least for now, because all good things must come to an end. But Yannis hosts a new podcast called Long Days with Yannis Pappas plus he has a comedy special on YouTube for free. Quick mention of our sponsors: Wine Access, Blinkist, Magic Spoon, and Indeed. Check them out in the description to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say that some of you have noticed that I have not spoken with too many computer scientists, physicists, biologists, or engineers recently. The reason has to do mostly with the risk aversion of many of these folks in the time of COVID, especially as they get closer to taking the vaccine. I'm tested several times a week and still some people are just more willing than others to have an in-person conversation in these times. I only do these podcasts in person because I look for the possibility of a genuine human connection. I'm willing to sacrifice a lot for that. Maybe it's silly, but I look for the magic that, uh, Charles Bukowski writes about in his poem Nirvana, the magic that is somehow in the air on those rare occasions when two people meet, talk, and you notice that while on the surface you may be worlds apart, you're still somehow woven from the same fabric. I've had that with many guests. Jim Keller comes to mind, but many others as well. I'm an AI person. Machine learning, robotics, computer science is my passion. Trust me, I can't wait to be having more technical conversations again, but I will also continue to mix in comedians, musicians, historians, and of course wise, all-seeing sages like Yannis Pappas and Tim Dillon, just to keep it, as Tim likes to say, fun. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast, and here is my conversation with Yannis Pappas.

2. 2:25 – 9:47

   Tim Dillon and absolute power

   1. LFLex Fridman2:26

      You've co-hosted, until recently, an amazing history comedy podcast called, uh, the History Hyenas. So you're a bit of a student of history?

   2. YPYannis Pappas2:36

      Yeah. Uh, an F student of history.

   3. LFLex Fridman2:38

      F student?

   4. YPYannis Pappas2:38

      Yeah.

   5. LFLex Fridman2:39

      Okay, I thought it was more like a D minus.

   6. YPYannis Pappas2:40

      D minus, yeah.

   7. LFLex Fridman2:41

      Okay.

   8. YPYannis Pappas2:42

      Still got to repeat the grade if you get all D minuses. I actually had a 0.67 GPA average my freshman year and I had to do it again. This is, this podcast is going to be the spectrum of human intelligence. This- It runs the gamut-

   9. LFLex Fridman2:54

      The full spectrum.

   10. YPYannis Pappas2:54

       ... from there to here. Yeah.

   11. LFLex Fridman2:55

       So this is gonna set a low bar for anything-

   12. YPYannis Pappas2:57

       I'm barely sliding into human. I'm closer to chimp.

   13. LFLex Fridman3:00

       And I, uh, bring that up that you're also friends with, uh, the great, the powerful Tim Dillon, so let's talk about power and the corrupting effects of power. Sometimes I l- I look at Tim Dillon as he grows in power.

   14. YPYannis Pappas3:17

       Oh, I thought you meant in size.

   15. LFLex Fridman3:19

       Uh, well, size, I think they're correlated. (laughs)

   16. YPYannis Pappas3:21

       Yeah. I saw him, I've been in Austin a couple days, I saw him once, we had eight meals in one day.

   17. LFLex Fridman3:27

       Eight meals?

   18. YPYannis Pappas3:27

       Yeah. He'd- So I feel like I've been here longer than I have just because of the meals with Dillon. Kid likes biscuits and barbecue.

   19. LFLex Fridman3:34

       Okay. So he's more like... See, I was, I was imagining Putin or somebody like that, he's more like the North Korean, uh, dictator.

   20. YPYannis Pappas3:40

       Yeah. (laughs) Yeah.

   21. LFLex Fridman3:41

       All right.

   22. YPYannis Pappas3:42

       They'd get along great those two.

   23. LFLex Fridman3:44

       Yeah.

   24. YPYannis Pappas3:44

       They would get... I mean, Tim Dillon and Kim Jong-un would be like, they could make like a buddy cop movie.

   25. LFLex Fridman3:48

       Yeah.

   26. YPYannis Pappas3:48

       They would get along like Lethal Weapon.

   27. LFLex Fridman3:50

       Great-

   28. YPYannis Pappas3:50

       That would be a good pitch movie.

   29. LFLex Fridman3:52

       Great podcast.

   30. YPYannis Pappas3:52

       Yeah, that would be a great podcast. Yeah. (laughs)
3. 9:47 – 17:48

   Mortality

   1. LFLex Fridman9:47

      You mentioned your dad. He passed away, uh, two y- a year and a half ago.

   2. YPYannis Pappas9:53

      Yeah.

   3. LFLex Fridman9:54

      What did you learn from him?

   4. YPYannis Pappas9:56

      I love my dad. My dad... I would say my dad was my, my hero. He was just, uh... My dad really embodied those values, and I think, um, for better or worse, it's made me who I am. He's, he, uh, my dad w- was a painter, he was a lawyer, he was a, he was a, you know, a lieutenant in the military. He was-

   5. LFLex Fridman10:15

      New Yorker?

   6. YPYannis Pappas10:16

      New Yorker. Born and bred Brooklyn. His dad, his dad, you know, uh, surprise, owned a diner.

   7. LFLex Fridman10:21

      (laughs)

   8. YPYannis Pappas10:21

      So that's, that's sort of the Greek passport, uh, that's the immigration passport for Greeks into America. And, um, yeah, my dad played football. He just... My dad did what he wanted, he lived as he wanted at all costs, and I think I got that from him w- for better or worse. I think it's hurt me in my pursuits, uh, if, i- if you consider money and fame, uh, to be paramount. You know, I- I've always done what I wanted, and if I stopped wanting to do it, I just stopped doing it. I think I got that from my dad. So maybe for better or worse that's what I learned from him. But that's a real currency, you know, feeling like you're in love with what you're doing when you're doing it. Maybe perhaps that's worth more than money. I don't know.

   9. LFLex Fridman11:01

      You miss him?

   10. YPYannis Pappas11:02

       Yeah, every day. Every day. But I'm happy that, uh, he, he got 91 years.

   11. LFLex Fridman11:08

       To-

   12. YPYannis Pappas11:09

       Very rare. I mean, he smoked for 60 years. Talk about like a guy who was an outlier. I mean, he smoked like 60 years, like packs. I mean-

   13. LFLex Fridman11:16

       Yeah.

   14. YPYannis Pappas11:17

       ... and he didn't die from that. He died, he had, uh, prostate cancer, which is the way men should go. Your dick should give out. It should start from the dick. I mean, we focus so much of our life on the dick-

   15. LFLex Fridman11:26

       Yeah.

   16. YPYannis Pappas11:27

       ... that that's the way... That's a successful life, and that's why every man eventually gets prostate cancer, 'cause that is the universe's way of saying, like, "The thing you focused on the most is, you put the most energy into, is the thing that's spent."

   17. LFLex Fridman11:39

       (laughs)

   18. YPYannis Pappas11:39

       And it's gonna... Your, your rotting is gonna start there. So that's a successful life. And it just spread all over his body and he slowly died. I was with him when he died, and that meant a lot to me 'cause me and my brother weren't talking at the time 'cause we're Greeks.

   19. LFLex Fridman11:52

       (laughs)

   20. YPYannis Pappas11:52

       Uh, we're, we're talking again, but that's how it is.

   21. LFLex Fridman11:55

       You got a few brothers, right?

   22. YPYannis Pappas11:56

       I got two brothers. But I wanted to make sure I was with him, uh, when he died, and I got lucky and I was in the room with him when he died.

   23. LFLex Fridman12:03

       You were in the room with your brother-And you weren't...

   24. YPYannis Pappas12:06

       No, my brother wasn't there, we were kind of doing shifts. I was, I was there, I spent the night that Dad, my... The, the night my dad died. He died in the m- early in the morning, and I heard the d- the death rattle, the last breath, and it was just... I think it was, uh, I... He knew I was there, and, uh, I think that just probably meant something to him and, uh, I'm just glad I was there.

   25. LFLex Fridman12:25

       Does that make you sad? That, uh, life is ephemeral, like you said?

   26. YPYannis Pappas12:29

       Yeah.

   27. LFLex Fridman12:29

       Like, that, that you die?

   28. YPYannis Pappas12:30

       Yeah.

   29. LFLex Fridman12:31

       What do you think about your own death?

   30. YPYannis Pappas12:32

       Uh...
4. 17:48 – 25:34

   Immortality

   1. LFLex Fridman17:48

      mean?

   2. YPYannis Pappas17:49

      Maybe that's what gives everything meaning.

   3. LFLex Fridman17:51

      Yeah.

   4. YPYannis Pappas17:52

      Because if everything lasted forever, if, uh, if this went on ad infinitum, there would be no meaning to it. It'd be like, "Hey, if I don't see you tomorrow, I'll see you in a million years."

   5. LFLex Fridman18:00

      Yeah.

   6. YPYannis Pappas18:00

      There would have, be no meaning, there would be no urgency, there would be no feelings. There'd be no, uh, nothing of magnitude or superficiality. It would all just be this kind of... It would be torture. It would actually, that would actually be torture to be here forever. I mean, I'm already sick of this place and I'm just in my 40s.

   7. LFLex Fridman18:17

      (laughs)

   8. YPYannis Pappas18:17

      Like, I'm done.

   9. LFLex Fridman18:18

      Yeah, you know-

   10. YPYannis Pappas18:19

       I'm sick of me, I'm sick of everything.

   11. LFLex Fridman18:20

       (laughs) . You know, I... A lot of people-When they talk about immortality, they consider, they consider mortality appealing because you get a chance to do basically all these things you might not get a chance to do otherwise, like all the kinds of travel broadly, explore, read every book, explore every idea, do every hobby, all those kinds of things. Somebody I was- I was talking to mentioned, uh, the reality of being immortal would be m- l- look, more likely, I like this idea, more likely would be you just sitting there doing nothing because... and putting off all that travel and exploration till later because you'll always have time. And so what you're gonna have, what actual immortality would look like for a bunch of humans is people sitting there doing nothing.

   12. YPYannis Pappas19:09

       It'll be like a Greek cafenea, just sitting around-

   13. LFLex Fridman19:12

       (laughs) Yeah.

   14. YPYannis Pappas19:12

       ... drinking coffee watching. I love it.

   15. LFLex Fridman19:13

       Yeah. (laughs)

   16. YPYannis Pappas19:14

       I mean, it's a lazy man's paradise, yeah.

   17. LFLex Fridman19:17

       But it's so interesting 'cause that, that's, that rings true to me for what humans are like, is we'll basically just put off all those exciting adventures and just be lazy, become lazier and lazier and lazier 'cause you'll always have a chance to do all the exciting things, and we'll just get... we'll s- we'll basically become Tim Dillon.

   18. YPYannis Pappas19:33

       (laughs)

   19. LFLex Fridman19:33

       We'll just sit there and have a podcast, and that's it.

   20. YPYannis Pappas19:36

       He works hard. Um, yeah.

   21. LFLex Fridman19:38

       Yeah, he does.

   22. YPYannis Pappas19:38

       I mean, that sounds actually like heaven, dude. That's speaking to my heart, really.

   23. LFLex Fridman19:41

       (laughs)

   24. YPYannis Pappas19:42

       I mean, I'm, at heart, I'm a very lazy person. I always tr- try to find ways to lie down, like if I'm sitting, I'll figure out a way to kinda contort myself to lay down. That's an interesting thing to like inf... Yeah, if you can always push something off, yeah, that, I like that. I- I- I think that's heaven. And, um-

   25. LFLex Fridman20:01

       See, we, we just changed your mind. You kinda like the immortality.

   26. YPYannis Pappas20:05

       Yeah, I kinda like it. No, so there'll be no thirsts, no... You can always put it off, "Hey, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna have... I wanna bang this girl." You're like, "Ah, I'll put it off." But now I'm thinking about Muslim heaven, and they may be offering the best deal. I mean, if it was an expo and they had a booth, I may go with them because they offer, they offer 62 or 72, but then I'd get sick of them. I'd wanna... I don't know. I always wondered, like, are you given the 62 virgins?

   27. LFLex Fridman20:31

       If you choose.

   28. YPYannis Pappas20:31

       Or if you choose, can you create them like an avatar, like a video game or are you just given...

   29. LFLex Fridman20:36

       I don't know what the num- why it's important to have that high number. First of all, I think it's a mistranslation about the virgins, but outside-

   30. YPYannis Pappas20:44

       Probably.
5. 25:34 – 32:13

   Dogs

   1. YPYannis Pappas25:34

      Yeah. And you know what? Dogs is something I don't think people really understand enough about. It's one of my obsessions, so, um, they, uh, they... My dad always used to say, though, he goes, "Those things are, those things are basically human." And I mean, they dream, they have anxiety, uh, and what people often overlook about dogs is without dogs, we wouldn't be here. We would not have ever evolved from hunter-gatherer, to agrarian, to, you know, um, civi- civilization. We wouldn't have cities, we wouldn't have anything. I mean, they are our partner in survival, and they are a magical animal. There's no, there's no animal that was... It was like destiny, almost.

   2. LFLex Fridman26:14

      Mm-hmm.

   3. YPYannis Pappas26:14

      I mean, a malleable animal... There's no animal that's that malleable that in o- a few generations, you can tailor to a specific job that you need. And without that animal, without dogs doing that animal, protecting our crops from, from, uh, you know, uh, scavengers and stuff like that, you know, the list goes on, we wouldn't be here. So, we o-... That's an often overlooked fact, that human evolution was not, uh, done in a vacuum just with humans. I mean, without dogs, we would've never evolved. I mean, we weren't the apex predator for most of our existence. We weren't even the apex predator. I mean, we were getting eaten by hyenas, which my favorite animal. Um, and you know, that's kind of an injustice to h-... I mean, I'm kind of mad at dogs that... I, we deserve to get eaten by hyenas.

   4. LFLex Fridman26:55

      (laughs)

   5. YPYannis Pappas26:56

      But without dogs, we wouldn't be here. And dogs, dogs deserve the protection. So do horses. They fucking lugged us around for thousands of years, and now these fucking German psychopaths are eating 'em or whatever.

   6. LFLex Fridman27:07

      Yeah.

   7. YPYannis Pappas27:07

      We should not eat horse meat just unlike... Be a good dude, man. These things lugged us around for generations-

   8. LFLex Fridman27:13

      Yeah.

   9. YPYannis Pappas27:13

      ... and they're beautiful. You know, ride 'em, or I don't know. I don't know, but I, it, it rubs me the wrong way that we eat horses.

   10. LFLex Fridman27:20

       Yeah. The, the horses one is interesting, and one of my favorite books is Animal Farm by Orwell, and the horses don't get a good ending in that, uh... I kind of, uh, my spirit animal, I suppose, is the horse from Animal Farm, uh, Boxer, where he says, uh, "I will work harder." That's his motto. I, I work really hard, uh, at stupid things. That's, that's basically-

   11. YPYannis Pappas27:42

       (laughs)

   12. LFLex Fridman27:42

       ... what I do. I just hit my head against the wall for no reason whatsoever, 'cause-

   13. YPYannis Pappas27:45

       But that probably fulfills... You have a big brain, you were probably born with a big brain that kind of fulfills-

   14. LFLex Fridman27:49

       Mm-hmm, yeah, just killing neurons.

   15. YPYannis Pappas27:50

       It's exercise for you, kind of.

   16. LFLex Fridman27:51

       Yes.

   17. YPYannis Pappas27:52

       Yeah.

   18. LFLex Fridman27:52

       It's just-

   19. YPYannis Pappas27:52

       Don't you think some animals deserve to be eaten though? Kind of like-

   20. LFLex Fridman27:55

       Hyenas?

   21. YPYannis Pappas27:57

       Come on, dude. I mean, them, they, they, you gotta respect a hyena.

   22. LFLex Fridman28:00

       So, this is... Okay, so let's, let... First of all, let me just comment on the dog thing. There is, like, conferences on dog cognition. From a perspective of people that study psychology, cognitive science, neuroscience, dogs are fascinating. The way they move their eyes, they're able to... They're the only other animal besides humans that are able to communicate with their eyes. They can look at a thing, and look back at you, and look back at the thing to communicate that we're all, like, through our eyes, communicate that we're collaborating. So, uh, every other animal uses their eyes to actually look at things. The dogs use it to, like, communicate with u- with us humans. It's fascinating. There's a lot of other elements with dogs that are amazing.

   23. YPYannis Pappas28:38

       Yeah, I mean, if it wasn't for them, uh, we, that they are the ones... They were our first alarm system for predators. They would defend us. I mean, the Basenji is one of the most ancient dogs. I mean, they're tiny, but they're fearless.

   24. LFLex Fridman28:48

       Yeah.

   25. YPYannis Pappas28:48

       And they would chase off lions. Like, you know, there'd be packs of them and they'd chase off lions and protect the tribes. It's, it's, it's... I even get tingles, like, thinking about dogs-

   26. LFLex Fridman28:56

       Yeah.

   27. YPYannis Pappas28:56

       ... 'cause I, I have a dog, I love my dog. It's just... And there's something about when you're walking with your dog off leash in the woods it, like... There's something about it that's like, that, that tugs at that, uh, millions of years of evolution, like that gut, you know?

   28. LFLex Fridman29:10

       Yeah.

   29. YPYannis Pappas29:10

       It's like... I had a, a Finnish friend of mine, he's a comic, Tomi Valmies once told me, he was like, uh, he was like, "The gut." He's like, "I, I believe in that, like, that gut. You know when you have that feeling?" He's like, "Always trust that, because that is million... Those are all your ancestors. That's the survival instinct of all your ancestors at the beginning of time, you know, telling you, like, 'Hey, something's off here. Something's...' You know?" So, don't get in the car with Ted Bundy is what I'm saying, ladies.

   30. LFLex Fridman29:35

       (laughs)
6. 32:13 – 37:33

   Power

   1. YPYannis Pappas32:13

   2. LFLex Fridman32:13

      I think you mentioned when you were talking about Woody Allen separating the, the art from the artist, so that brings to mind Vladimir Putin.

   3. YPYannis Pappas32:23

      (laughing)

   4. LFLex Fridman32:24

      (laughing) How about that transition? I don't know. (laughing) I'm so sorry.

   5. YPYannis Pappas32:29

      (laughing)

   6. LFLex Fridman32:29

      But if, if you... (laughing) If you look at just powerful leaders throughout history, Stalin, Hitler, but, uh, even modern ones like Putin and we're talking about power, how do you explain them? You said, uh, that power reveals not corrupt. But do you think there's some element to which power corrupted Hitler, power corrupted Stalin after he gained power? And the same with Putin. When Putin gained power in 2000, do you think the amount of power that he was in possession with for many years, do you think that corrupted him? I mean, we're joking about dictators get the job done, there is some sense in certain countries where a dictator is, um, the only thing they can stabilize a nation. The, the counter argument to that for democracies is like, yeah, but that's a short-term solution for a long-term problem, so you want to embrace chaos the democracy. That might be violent, there might be a lot of, uh, just constant changing of leadership, there might be a lot of corruption in the short term, but if you s- stay strong with, um, with the ideals of democracy, then you'll be, uh, ultimately create something that as beautiful and stable as the United States.

   7. YPYannis Pappas33:50

      (laughing)

   8. LFLex Fridman33:50

      (laughing)

   9. YPYannis Pappas33:51

      The, the sad thing is, is I don't know if that, if history tells that story. It's like I said, you look at Greece, you look at Rome, democracy kind of failed. The majority of Rome, the, the most successful empire, uh, that we've had, um, was a dictatorship for most of its run. So, um, but I do believe in a republic, which is sort of a limited democracy. I do believe in, in what we have here. I believe in common law. I believe, um, you know, in individual rights. Um, but yeah, I think you said it. I th- y- uh, ye- I couldn't have s- nobody could have said it better. Yeah, it's a, it's a short-term solution. You look at Saddam Hussein, he kinda, you know... When, when we took, took him out and there was a lot of infighting that, that happened that he was kind of keeping at bay, um, because, uh, he was a strongman dictator.

   10. LFLex Fridman34:43

       Well, here's an interesting one. Sorry to interrupt.

   11. YPYannis Pappas34:45

       No.

   12. LFLex Fridman34:46

       From my understanding, I'm sure people will correct me, but when, uh, Saddam Hussein first came to power, he was, uh, he was quite progressive. (laughing) So like, the dic- the... As far as I understand, the signs of an evil dictator weren't exactly there. So again, there's... I don't know if power revealed or power corrupted.

   13. YPYannis Pappas35:07

       Or that could have been the initial subterfuge to kind of get everybody... You know, Hitler also is like, you know, champion of the people, "Let's build some new roads."

   14. LFLex Fridman35:14

       Yeah.

   15. YPYannis Pappas35:14

       It's what psychopaths do. And that's why it's interesting to me. I'm not sure if power corrupts psychopaths. And now that we know that we can do these CAT scans and brain scans, uh, scans, we know that they're born that way. Eh, power definitely corrupts people who have the capacity, uh, to feel a- and for empathy. Power, I'm not sure. I don't think power corrupts people who were born, uh, psychopathic with that condition or sociopaths who had, who c- you know, who were closer to psychopath and then had some traumatic life ex- You know, I just think, um, you know, the best way to get away with whatever nefarious thing you want to do to feel, I guess the only thing psychopaths can feel is that excitement, is to pretend to be the opposite of what you are.

   16. LFLex Fridman35:58

       Yeah.

   17. YPYannis Pappas35:58

       That's what, that's what killers do. That's what the worst people do. Look at Bill Cosby. I mean, he was... What better way to hide, you know? I- it's like what wokeness is now. It's like, "I'm such a great person," and then you're like, "Are you?" It's a great... The best way to hide is to pretend to be the opposite of what you are. Just like Ted Bundy, "I'm, I'm just an innocent, helpful guy." And then boom, next thing you know, y- y- you're getting your tit bit off.

   18. LFLex Fridman36:21

       (laughing) It's really well said. It's, it's actually kind of funny because I talk about love a lot. And I think the people that kind of look at me with squinty eyes, they wonder-... like, how many bodies are in that closet?

   19. YPYannis Pappas36:34

       (laughs)

   20. LFLex Fridman36:34

       You know what I mean? Like, there's something about the duality of like, w- we're so skeptical as a culture. Like, if somebody is just like, seems to be kind of, sort of, uh, I don't know, positive and all that kinda, you know, w- h- how do I put it? Just simple, uh, simple-minded in the positivity they express.

   21. YPYannis Pappas36:55

       Mm-hmm.

   22. LFLex Fridman36:55

       They think like, "Ok- there's some demons in there."

   23. YPYannis Pappas36:58

       Yeah, especially if you're a New Yorker. We don't trust any- the nicer you are, the more skeptical we are.

   24. LFLex Fridman37:01

       Yeah. (laughs)

   25. YPYannis Pappas37:02

       I've struggled with that down here. I've been like, "What? What's your angle?" And they're like, "Nah, dude, just-"

   26. LFLex Fridman37:05

       (laughs)

   27. YPYannis Pappas37:05

       "... I wanted to show you the best tacos, man." And I'm like, "Did you really? What do you want?" 'Cause in New York, it's like, if anyone's nice to you, they want something.

   28. LFLex Fridman37:12

       Yeah.

   29. YPYannis Pappas37:13

       And that's, uh-

   30. LFLex Fridman37:15

       (laughs)
7. 37:33 – 42:47

   Hyenas

   1. LFLex Fridman37:33

      here?"

   2. YPYannis Pappas37:33

      Yeah.

   3. LFLex Fridman37:33

      You mentioned hyenas as your favorite animal.

   4. YPYannis Pappas37:35

      Yes.

   5. LFLex Fridman37:35

      I forgot to ask you, what the hell were you thinking? Why is hyenas your favorite animal?

   6. YPYannis Pappas37:41

      Yeah, it's, um, it's a fascinating animal and, uh-

   7. LFLex Fridman37:45

      Let, let's look at the whole animal kingdom. Like, why is like, where do you put... So, you like dogs.

   8. YPYannis Pappas37:50

      Love. My favorite.

   9. LFLex Fridman37:51

      Y- your favorite is dogs.

   10. YPYannis Pappas37:52

       Mm-hmm.

   11. LFLex Fridman37:52

       But they're kind of outside the animal kingdom 'cause you're thinking about wolves. So, the, the animal kingdom is in nature.

   12. YPYannis Pappas37:59

       Mm-hmm.

   13. LFLex Fridman37:59

       Dogs escaped nature.

   14. YPYannis Pappas38:01

       They kinda did, yeah. Uh, that's-

   15. LFLex Fridman38:02

       Uh, together with humans, like in a collaborative way.

   16. YPYannis Pappas38:04

       Yes.

   17. LFLex Fridman38:04

       Exactly. So within nature, within the animal kingdom-

   18. YPYannis Pappas38:08

       Yeah.

   19. LFLex Fridman38:09

       ... what, who's, uh, why not lions or bears?

   20. YPYannis Pappas38:11

       'Cause lions are predictable. Lions are just, you know, they're regal and kinda, like, boring. It's like the hot chick. It's like, we get it. You were born the best.

   21. LFLex Fridman38:22

       Yeah.

   22. YPYannis Pappas38:22

       You know? I like a scrappy, by any means necessary, intelligent, and cunning, uh-

   23. LFLex Fridman38:29

       But aren't they dishonest?

   24. YPYannis Pappas38:30

       Yeah.

   25. LFLex Fridman38:31

       (laughs)

   26. YPYannis Pappas38:31

       And that's why I like 'em. Yes, they're dishonest.

   27. LFLex Fridman38:34

       (laughs)

   28. YPYannis Pappas38:35

       They employ chicanery.

   29. LFLex Fridman38:37

       Yeah.

   30. YPYannis Pappas38:37

       They, uh, they're, and that's just a sign of how intelligent they are and how self-reliant they are and how brutal they are. Um, they're brutally honest in how much they lie.
8. 42:47 – 45:40

   Nature is metal

   1. LFLex Fridman42:47

      th- (sighs) I think that's, uh... I don't know if you, uh, follow the, the ch- the channel, um, Nature Is Metal. That-

   2. YPYannis Pappas42:53

      Yes, I do.

   3. LFLex Fridman42:54

      That one weighs heavy on me, um, (laughs) with the hyenas and the balls.

   4. YPYannis Pappas42:59

      (laughs)

   5. LFLex Fridman42:59

      I... It's tough to, to intellectualize it. It's tough to think that the entirety of life on Earth has this history of, um, predators being violent.

   6. YPYannis Pappas43:12

      Yeah.

   7. LFLex Fridman43:12

      Just, like, just the murder that we come from.

   8. YPYannis Pappas43:16

      Yeah.

   9. LFLex Fridman43:17

      It's crazy. Uh, i- i- it... Uh, just like ya... We were talking about meditating on death. I... I actually... I keep following and unfollowing that Instagram channel because, like, sometimes it's too much.

   10. YPYannis Pappas43:28

       It's brutal.

   11. LFLex Fridman43:28

       Like, I can't, I can't continue with the day after, like, seeing the brutality, the honest brutality of that.

   12. YPYannis Pappas43:34

       Yeah.

   13. LFLex Fridman43:34

       I don't know how to make sense of it.

   14. YPYannis Pappas43:36

       It's important to acknowledge, I think, 'cause that... It's real. Uh, we do come from that. We are... We evolve from that. It's important. We still do that, we're just hidden from it. You know, when you go to the supermarket and get your slab of meat and, you know... You're so disconnected from where that meat came from. It came from that. And often, uh, that's uglier to watch than... Because there's some honesty, you know? The, the, the, the nature channels only show... Uh, that's why we have so much sympathy with the prey and this is where I think... The same thing with mafia movies, they don't show what the mafia really does. They glorify the good parts.

   15. LFLex Fridman44:08

       Yeah.

   16. YPYannis Pappas44:08

       That's why I like State of Grace, 'cause it's really just shaking down old people and fucking being dicks.

   17. LFLex Fridman44:12

       (laughs)

   18. YPYannis Pappas44:12

       It's not driving nice cars-

   19. LFLex Fridman44:14

       Yeah.

   20. YPYannis Pappas44:14

       ... and being like... You know? So... And, and animal channels do the same thing. They only show when the cheetah gets it, because that's, that's the exciting part. But what most people don't know is that those predators strike out almost always. A majority of the time, the prey wins. And so if you saw that and put it in context, you might not hate it as much when the predator actually gets the little fawn or whatever, because it's... So many fawns got away. It's so hard to capture your prey and, you know, we, we don't have the, the, the... They... No, no documentary is gonna sit around and show you the 99 times-

   21. LFLex Fridman44:49

       Yeah.

   22. YPYannis Pappas44:49

       ... the cheetah, uh, didn't catch.

   23. LFLex Fridman44:51

       Let's... Thank you for this perspective, it's... Murder is difficult. So, like, this is the... They never talk about-

   24. YPYannis Pappas44:56

       No.

   25. LFLex Fridman44:56

       ... for people who murder, how difficult it is. Like, th-

   26. YPYannis Pappas45:00

       It's tough-

   27. LFLex Fridman45:01

       (laughs)

   28. YPYannis Pappas45:01

       ... you know?

   29. LFLex Fridman45:01

       ... to trap somebody, to convince them to come back to your place, to do all the-

   30. YPYannis Pappas45:04

       Give it some respect. Put some respect on Ted Bundy's name.
9. 45:40 – 53:08

   Battle of Crete

   1. LFLex Fridman45:40

      Uh, you got a little bit of Greek in you. Uh, one of the episodes on, on, uh, History Hyenas, you talked about the Battle of Crete, where the Greeks, your people, in, uh, uh, in 19, I guess, 41, in the early stages of the World War II, this is one of the most epic battles of the war. Uh, in fact, in 1941, in a speech made at, at the Reichstag, Hitler paid tribute to the bravery of the Greeks saying, "It must be said, uh, for the sake of historical truth, that amongst all our opponents, only the Greeks fought with an endless courage and defiance of death." So, okay, what do you make of this battle? What do you make of the spirit of the Greek people?

   2. YPYannis Pappas46:27

      This is one of the closest things to me because my mother was actually on the island of Crete during this, the first aerial invasion in history. A lot of people don't know that, so this is a very significant battle. Um, first time there was an invasion from the sky. Um, and, uh, my mother was a little girl and she lived through four years of, uh, Nazi occupation there. So my mother was a human rights lawyer and everything, but she just always hated Germans. It's just what it is. She hated Germans and j- and she never got over it. So the most progressive, open-minded woman just could not get over this. Um, it's a monumental battle that a lot of historians in retrospect have now looked back on and said because the Nazis... First off, you gotta take it back to when Hitler instructed Mussolini, 'cause let's be honest, Mussolini was Hitler's bitch, you know what I mean? It was like-

   3. LFLex Fridman47:14

      (laughs)

   4. YPYannis Pappas47:14

      ... if it w- you know, if it was Fantasy Island, Hitler was the fucking... And the, uh, and Mussolini was Boss, the plane guy.

   5. LFLex Fridman47:19

      Mussolini ever say no to Hitler or me- even maybe? It's always like, "Yes."

   6. YPYannis Pappas47:23

      Yes.

   7. LFLex Fridman47:24

      (laughs)

   8. YPYannis Pappas47:24

      Yes, we will do it. And, uh-

   9. LFLex Fridman47:27

      (laughs)

   10. YPYannis Pappas47:27

       ... it's like, "You gotta take... You have to take Greece."

   11. LFLex Fridman47:29

       (laughs)

   12. YPYannis Pappas47:29

       And so, um, yeah. So Italy being, uh, uh, much bigger than Greece... Greece is a tiny country, nine, 10 million.

   13. LFLex Fridman47:37

       Yeah.

   14. YPYannis Pappas47:37

       So Italy invaded Greece, um, you know, f- um, and Oxi Day's a big... It's a big holiday for Greeks and this speaks to the spirit. Greeks infight until we have a common enemy and then we unite. You see it throughout history, Sparta and Athens. You see it in Greek families-

   15. LFLex Fridman47:58

       (laughs)

   16. YPYannis Pappas47:58

       ... (laughs) where the brothers will fight, but then as soon as we have a common enemy, we unite. And maybe it's an overactive brain, we think too much. Our, our tradition's philosophy and we overthink things and we fight with each other and take things personally, we're ultra-passionate. But when Italy said, "Hey, we're gonna move troops through," you know, uh, uh, Greek said, "Oxi," which means no, and that was... Um, and then Italy attacked and, uh, we beat the shit out of 'em. A much bigger country, much, uh, more well-equipped country, Greece beat the shit out of 'em, kicked 'em back into Albania. Actually, not only repelled them, actually, like, conquered some ground in Albania, pushed 'em back, and then Hitler was like, "Fuck, you know, I was planning my march to Russia."... uh, but I have to go down beca-" He basically said to Mussolini, like, you know, "You're fu-" B- basically bitch-slapped him like Fredo.

   17. LFLex Fridman48:46

       (laughs)

   18. YPYannis Pappas48:46

       Like, "I gotta do this myself-"

   19. LFLex Fridman48:47

       Yeah.

   20. YPYannis Pappas48:47

       "... 'cause you're such a fucking bitch."

   21. LFLex Fridman48:49

       Yeah.

   22. YPYannis Pappas48:49

       So then the Nazis invaded Greece. Obviously they took the mainland with fight and shot out... The Greeks never give credit to the British and New Zealand and Australian troops that were there, you know, they were a large part of this, the majority of it. But the Greeks fight, dude. Civilians, I mean, they fought, you know? The Ottomans were there 400 years. You go to Greece now, there's no evidence, there's virtually no evidence of them ever being there. That's the Greek spirit. Kick 'em out and we kicked out hummus too.

   23. LFLex Fridman49:17

       (laughs)

   24. YPYannis Pappas49:17

       So it's like their culture's gone, you're gone.

   25. LFLex Fridman49:19

       Yeah.

   26. YPYannis Pappas49:19

       'Cause Greeks are s- uh, it's philotimo. It's called philotimo, and it's a real thing. Philotimo is a, a very little trans- you can't translate it, but it's kind of like honor, loyalty, friendship, uh, altruism. It's a, it's, you can't define it, but Greeks know it and were taught it from our, from our, uh, families. It's a vibe, man. It's a Greek cultural thing, and we're an old culture and philotimo is what it's called. Philotimo, and it's, um, it's love, it's passion, and it comes out, and it comes out. And so, um, so Hitler had to postpone his invasion of, um, of, uh, Russia. Went down. The island of Crete took 10 days to conquer. It's an island.

   27. LFLex Fridman50:01

       Mm-hmm.

   28. YPYannis Pappas50:02

       To put that in perspective, the country of France fell in three or four days. I can't even remember 'cause they fucking just rolled over, so what does, what, what does a couple of hours matter when you're that much of a fucking pussy?

   29. LFLex Fridman50:13

       Yeah. (laughs)

   30. YPYannis Pappas50:13

       Okay? What does a couple hour, 12 hour, fucking three or four days?
10. 53:08 – 57:56

    History is written by the victors

    1. YPYannis Pappas53:08

       either.

    2. LFLex Fridman53:08

       Yeah, the stories are written by the victors. That's really interesting. I- I, just looking at the h- at history, you wonder what's missing.

    3. YPYannis Pappas53:16

       I'll tell you what's missing that I know for a fact, 'cause my dad told, my dad w- uh, told me combat's hell and he would tell me the reality of what it's really like. Guys pissing themselves, calling for their mother, the, the fog of war obviously. Fratricide happens all the time, it's pandemonium. I mean, there's skill involved but I mean, there's no, like, it's, a lot of it is just luck. My dad said he, my dad won three, he got, you know, medals, brea, uh, purple hearts, all that shit, and he said the reason was is 'cause he can't, he always said, this is another thing he told me, "You can't pin a medal on a dead guy." So he's like, "Those are the guys who deserve it, but you can't pin a medal. You can't do the pomp and s-"

    4. LFLex Fridman53:50

       Yeah.

    5. YPYannis Pappas53:50

       "... with..." And, um, I'll tell you one thing is that, uh, it is written by the victors, and all these leaders they say were in the front were not in the front, were not lead- whenever the history books say, "He led his troops into battle," it's like, did he really?

    6. LFLex Fridman54:03

       Hmm. Yeah.

    7. YPYannis Pappas54:04

       Did he ... So then how did he live? 'Cause they put, like, kids in the front, you know? It's like, nobody limps back from the front with like a injury, you know? That's, that's Army PR i- you know, uh, whenever you read, uh, you know, "For 27 soldiers died, 14 were injured," the, the word injured is PR.

    8. LFLex Fridman54:21

       Mm-hmm.

    9. YPYannis Pappas54:21

       That's like, injured was he? Did he sprain his ankle?

    10. LFLex Fridman54:24

        (laughs)

    11. YPYannis Pappas54:25

        Did he need, yeah, did he get carried off the court or, you know, he was maimed.

    12. LFLex Fridman54:29

        Yeah.

    13. YPYannis Pappas54:29

        I mean, he was like his leg was blown off, you know? It's like-

    14. LFLex Fridman54:32

        Yeah.

    15. YPYannis Pappas54:32

        So, uh, I think that, you know, Alexander the Great was just kind of in the back on his horse and just kind of-

    16. LFLex Fridman54:37

        (laughs)

    17. YPYannis Pappas54:37

        ... he had his eunuch blow him a few times and he was like, "Is it bad up there?"

    18. LFLex Fridman54:40

        (laughs)

    19. YPYannis Pappas54:40

        And then, like, after the, he was like, "Okay, when, my scribe, give me my scribe. Okay, when you write this down can you put me in the front? Yeah, and I was just, make me a big hero and I was in there," and then he, you know, he just blew his un- y- you know, he had sex with his eunich and rode off into the sunset, because there's just no way you survive in the front, especially warfare back then. I mean, it's like brutal.

    20. LFLex Fridman54:59

        Then again, you have like, uh, Genghis Khan. The sense I got that he was a little bit up on the front, at least at first.

    21. YPYannis Pappas55:07

        Yeah.

    22. LFLex Fridman55:07

        Or is that also ... Is he a little bit Alexander the Great?

    23. YPYannis Pappas55:09

        I think it's... Give me my scribe. Yeah, it's all lore. I mean, you ever play the game of Telephone? You know, it's like, you know, there's no video cameras back then so shit just ge- turns into myth, you know? And, uh, there's no way he was in the front. There's no way. He wouldn't have lived. You know, he was probably good on horseback 'cause those, those dudes were good on horseback but it was like Game of Thrones back then. You had all these different people and they kind of ... Yeah, the, the, the Mongols were wild, dude. They are actually said like, um, they started like, they were more adaptable to the horse because they were so good on horseback that kids started to be born like kind of bowlegged-

    24. LFLex Fridman55:43

        Yeah.

    25. YPYannis Pappas55:43

        ... like to fit the hor- It's wild. And they would stretch their heads and shit like that. They'd wrap them and stretch their heads so they find like Mongol skulls in the ... They look like cone heads and they were brutal and vicious. And they would maraud and rape and all the fun stuff that-

    26. LFLex Fridman55:59

        (laughs)

    27. YPYannis Pappas55:59

        ... you know? When, you know, when you visit other places back then, there's no tchotchke stops and souvenir shops. What you do is you take women and those are the tokens, you know? You burn a few huts. Different. Tourism was different back then. (laughs)

    28. LFLex Fridman56:13

        (laughs) Yeah. That's another difficult thing. Just so we're, we're talking about nature and predators, to think about the long stretch of history where it was just murder.

    29. YPYannis Pappas56:22

        Yeah.

    30. LFLex Fridman56:23

        And we made so much progress, I guess, in the past couple of centuries. The United States is a shining example of that.
11. 57:56 – 1:10:05

    History Hyenas podcast

    1. YPYannis Pappas57:56

    2. LFLex Fridman57:56

       No. No. Uh, (laughs)

    3. YPYannis Pappas57:59

       (laughs)

    4. LFLex Fridman57:59

       So you're, uh, History Hyenas, that unfortunately has come to an end.

    5. YPYannis Pappas58:03

       Yeah.

    6. LFLex Fridman58:03

       We were talking about empires coming to an end, all empires fall.

    7. YPYannis Pappas58:06

       Yeah.

    8. LFLex Fridman58:07

       Um, that one, um, well, it may rise again. Empires might rise ag- who knows? Who knows? I, I'm obviously a fan, so I hope it does ri- rise again. But you've, uh, seemed to develop your own language. Can you, uh, you know, "It's what it is."

    9. YPYannis Pappas58:26

       (laughs)

    10. LFLex Fridman58:26

        What is, what is that? What, w- w- what the hell, um-

    11. YPYannis Pappas58:29

        I think-

    12. LFLex Fridman58:30

        Is, is this some kind of medical condition or can you, can you explain like the linguistic essentials that, uh, uh, catch us up to the linguistic essentials that people need to know to understand-

    13. YPYannis Pappas58:41

        Yeah.

    14. LFLex Fridman58:41

        ... the way you speak? Uh-

    15. YPYannis Pappas58:42

        Do you ever, you know Leopold and Loeb? You know the story of those two gu- they murdered that kid and they had this weird relationship? Uh, anyway, it's an interesting thing to Google, Leopold and Loeb, these two guys who ended up murdering a kid because they developed their own language with each other and, uh, this whole reality and this weird thing, and they wanted to know what it's like to murder a kid and they murdered a kid. It's a famous story in American lore and history or whatever, a famous case. Um, but this phenomenon, yeah, me and Chris got together. I, there, uh, uh, it wasn't as dark as Leopold and Loeb. We didn't murder a kid.

    16. LFLex Fridman59:13

        Yeah.

    17. YPYannis Pappas59:13

        But, uh, we murdered a podcast, uh. (laughs)

    18. LFLex Fridman59:16

        (laughs)

    19. YPYannis Pappas59:16

        (laughs)

    20. LFLex Fridman59:17

        Or at least stabbed it a few times.

    21. YPYannis Pappas59:18

        Yeah, it's, um, it was something in the organic chemistry of me and Chris that I think we'll both end up, uh, appreciating even probably more than we do now that, uh, it's mysterious. I gotta be honest with you, it's, um, it was a thing that, uh, uh, it wasn't conscious, uh, wasn't intentional. It was something that happened in the music of our energies-

    22. LFLex Fridman59:43

        Yeah.

    23. YPYannis Pappas59:44

        ... that just went.

    24. LFLex Fridman59:45

        It's fascinating, yeah.

    25. YPYannis Pappas59:45

        Like when you hear someone sing or, uh, when a jazz band hits a rhythm, or even when I'm on stage and I just catch a rhythm. It's like, d- d- dude, I didn't make a choice there. I don't know what that is, I don't know how to explain it, but it comes from somewhere else. And, uh, I don't know what it is. It's beyond my comprehension but, uh, with Chris, uh, there was this magical chemistry that, uh, uh, you know, I have chemistry with a lot of people and, uh, it can be funny and I enjoy p-

    26. LFLex Fridman1:00:10

        I feel zero chemistry here, by the way.

    27. YPYannis Pappas1:00:11

        No, this is great.

    28. LFLex Fridman1:00:12

        Oh, because it's (laughs)

    29. YPYannis Pappas1:00:12

        This is great. Yeah, it's a little bit more intelligent than what me and Chris did.

    30. LFLex Fridman1:00:15

        (laughs)
12. 1:10:05 – 1:13:10

    Bernie Madoff

    1. LFLex Fridman1:10:05

       Can you, uh... I don't know much about Bernie Madoff, as a small tangent.

    2. YPYannis Pappas1:10:08

       Oh, for sure.

    3. LFLex Fridman1:10:08

       Can you, can you tell me who the hell is Bernie Madoff?

    4. YPYannis Pappas1:10:10

       Oh, Bernie Madoff is the GOAT.

    5. LFLex Fridman1:10:13

       (laughs)

    6. YPYannis Pappas1:10:13

       The greatest thief of all time, dude. Um, hedge fund guy, ran a hedge fund and, uh, pulled, uh, ro- stole the most money in the history of America. I mean, a con artist. And, um, he does, uh, uh, people, obviously he's become, he's a household name because of the magnitude of his crime, but you got to apprec- again, you got to appreciate what went into this and how long he was able to pull it off, uh, by tricking the smartest and richest people in the world, and a brilliant scam. The con man, uh, con man is short for confidence man, and it, it came from... Yeah, a con man basically they, they exude confidence, and they trick people by playing on their ego and, and blind spots. And it, uh, the, the word comes from a guy, I can't remember where, but what he, what he used to do, I, I can't remember the guy's name, uh, you know, whatever, you can Google it, con man, but it's very interesting, the, the first con man that is on record, what he would do, he'd just go to very rich people and he'd be very well-dressed, right? And he'd go, uh, he's be like, "I bet you, you, you don't have the confidence to give me your watch."

    7. LFLex Fridman1:11:16

       Mm-hmm.

    8. YPYannis Pappas1:11:16

       And he would play on the egos of these very powerful and rich people, and they would give him the watch for some reason, some sort of reverse psychology bullshit, and he'd take the watch and he would just steal it. (laughs)

    9. LFLex Fridman1:11:25

       (laughs)

    10. YPYannis Pappas1:11:26

        So 'cause basically he's saying like, "I don't, you don't have the confidence to give me the watch 'cause you don't, I don't know, you don't think I'm gonna give it back." And he would just take it.

    11. LFLex Fridman1:11:31

        Yeah.

    12. YPYannis Pappas1:11:31

        So Bernie Madoff was a very sophistifa-, sophisticated con man. And again, we were talking about people pretending to be the opposite of what they are. Bernie hid his, uh, thievery in how available he was to his clients, how he would show up at every bar mitzvah, every birthday, he was always available for their phone calls, and he, uh, played on their egos. He made it so people w- wanted to invest in him.

    13. LFLex Fridman1:11:55

        Mm-hmm.

    14. YPYannis Pappas1:11:55

        Like, they were competing. He made it very exclusive. N- he, he wouldn't just take anyone. And there was a method behind that madness because he wanted the whales that wouldn't notice that he was s- he was, had this pyramid scheme going. And so what he would do is he would just rob from the richer and he just kept, it was like he'd pay back the richer with the guy who was a little le- and it was a pyramid scheme. And, um, he was able to do it for so long and steal so much money, and he would win people over with the scheme because with that scheme, he was the only guy who could provide, who could guarantee like a 1% return even during times of recession. And because he was such a good con man, eh, he hijacked people's reasoning with his charm.

    15. LFLex Fridman1:12:35

        Yeah.

    16. YPYannis Pappas1:12:35

        And that's what con artists do. That's what psychopaths do. They're so fucking charming.

    17. LFLex Fridman1:12:39

        Yeah.

    18. YPYannis Pappas1:12:39

        They get you in that Volkswagen Beetle. Because if they used their reasoning for one second, they'd go, "Hey, nobody can provide 1% returns during recessions."

    19. LFLex Fridman1:12:46

        Yeah.

    20. YPYannis Pappas1:12:46

        "How the fuck is this guy doing it?" I'll tell you how he's doing it. He's stealing from another guy to pay you.

    21. LFLex Fridman1:12:51

        (laughs)

    22. YPYannis Pappas1:12:51

        You fucking idiot.

    23. LFLex Fridman1:12:52

        So charisma is essential to that. You know, maybe you can-... help explain something to me, something I have been affected by-

    24. YPYannis Pappas1:13:00

        I'm going to be way too loud for your listeners. There's going to be comments like, "Tell this guy to calm down."

    25. LFLex Fridman1:13:03

        Just tr-

    26. YPYannis Pappas1:13:03

        I'm sorry I'm Greek. (imitates someone yelling)

    27. LFLex Fridman1:13:07

        (laughs) .

    28. YPYannis Pappas1:13:07

        (laughs) .

    29. LFLex Fridman1:13:07

        Yeah. Would... (laughs) . No, that's beautiful. I love

13. 1:13:10 – 1:18:03

    Jeffrey Epstein

    1. LFLex Fridman1:13:10

       it. Th- something that I have been thinking about and have encountered indirectly is Jeffrey Epstein and I have a sense, be- because of MIT, because of all the other people that have been, uh, touched, the wrong term, by Jeffrey Epstein, in the sense that-

Episode duration: 1:50:48