Yeonmi Park: North Korea | Lex Fridman Podcast #196

1. 0:00 – 3:58

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with Yeonmi Park, a North Korean defector, human rights activist, and author of the book In Order to Live. Quick mention of our sponsors: Belcampo, Gala Games, BetterHelp, and Eight Sleep. Check them out in the description to support this podcast. Let me say a few words about North Korea. From 1994 to '98, North Korea went through a famine, mass starvation caused primarily by Kim Jong Il, who at the time was the new leader of North Korea after his father's death in 1994. Somewhere between 600,000 and three million people died due to starvation. From all the stories of famine in history, including my own family history, I've come to understand that hunger tortures the human mind in a way that can break everything we stand for. In North Korea, during the '90s famine, many were driven to cannibalism. Imagine, more than 10 million people suffering starvation for months and years, always on the brink of death. We don't know the exact numbers of people who died because the suffering was done in silence, in darkness. Very little information in or out. Most people had to survive without electricity, without clean water, medical supplies, sanitation, and food. The North Korean propaganda machine called this The Arduous March or the March of Suffering, and words such as "famine" and "hunger" were banned because they implied government failure. And once again, now in 2021, Kim Jong-un, the current leader of North Korea, is calling for his country to prepare for another Arduous March or March of Suffering, another period of mass starvation as the country closes its borders. Looking at atrocities of the past decades and the encroaching atrocity there now, I think about the quiet suffering of millions of North Koreans. I think about the torture of the human spirit. I think about a North Korean child who could be a scientist, an artist, a writer, but who instead grows impossibly thin without food, their body slowly rotting away as their parents watch helplessly. I got emotional in this conversation with Yeonmi, in part because I remembered my grandmother who survived Holodomor, the famine in Ukraine intentionally created by Stalin where 4 to 10 million people died and many, many more suffered. Imagine knowing that if you don't engage in cannibalism, you will die before your children did, and then they will be eaten. Imagine because of this deciding to murder and eat your own children as many people did. Imagine the kind of desperation, torture that leads up to a decision like that. I'm not smart enough to know what evil is, know where to draw the line between good and evil, but Stalin, Kim Jong Il, Kim Jong Un are men who in the name of power are willing to make millions of people, of children suffer and die from starvation. I rarely have hate in my heart, but I hate these men. I hate that such men exist in this world. I hate that the beauty I love about this life exists amidst such unimaginable cruelty. I have been haunted by this conversation, by memories of my grandmother's pain, but I've also been warmed by memories of her love. Love gives me hope, hope for the perseverance of the human spirit even in the face of evil. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast, and here is my conversation with Yeonmi Park.

2. 3:58 – 9:22

   Growing up in North Korea

   1. LFLex Fridman3:58

      Can you tell your story from North Korea to today as you describe in your 2015 book and with the extra perspective on life, love, and freedom you've gained since then?

   2. YPYeonmi Park4:08

      Well, that's a long story. So I was born in the northern part of North Korea initially, and my father was a party member, and my mom was housewife. I had one older sister. And I remember born in that country, I never thought I was in a unusual country. (laughs) Now I'm thinking about it, it's, like, literally called the Hermit Kingdom. But I thought, I believed that I was living in the best country on earth. It was a socialist paradise and everybody in the rest of the world worshiped my dear leader, and there was nothing to envy for me. So I had this, like, enormous pride in my heart and grateful to be in that country.

   3. LFLex Fridman4:54

      So it was love for the leader, not fear?

   4. YPYeonmi Park4:57

      For me at least, it was love. Yeah. It was admiration and gratitude. It changed lately, but for me it was pure, pure, like, love.

   5. LFLex Fridman5:09

      Was there any, like, looking back with the perspective you have now, would you describe some of those moments growing up as full of happiness or was that delusion at the time? So not knowing the alternative, were you still be able to be happy?

   6. YPYeonmi Park5:28

      The fact that I did not know, like, in North Korea, this is the only country in this 21st century has no internet, and they don't even know the existence of internet. Not only that, we don't even have this 20 elec- like, you know, 24-hour electricity.

   7. LFLex Fridman5:45

      Yeah.

   8. YPYeonmi Park5:46

      So not knowing definitely helped, I think, to be sane.

   9. LFLex Fridman5:50

      So as a human being-... you're still able to find moments of happiness?

   10. YPYeonmi Park5:55

       I think my happiness was from family, nothing else. Even though those they would keep telling me that they were the, our source of meaning and happiness, I don't think I ever gotten happy by that. Maybe they're here and there in schools and, like, when I was learning propaganda, like, you know, the proud feeling, right?

   11. LFLex Fridman6:13

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   12. YPYeonmi Park6:14

       I'm in the greatest nation. Here and there, but, like, actually true happiness came from laughing with my family and my friends.

   13. LFLex Fridman6:21

       Are there any childhood memories, pleasant or painful ones, that stand out to you now?

   14. YPYeonmi Park6:28

       (sighs) I mean, like, you know, whenever I think about my North Korea, the interesting is there's no color. I mean, one is because North Korean country has no color, right? Most of things are unpaved and trees all cut down. We have no fear, so people cut down trees to make food. So, but only that, like, even what we are wearing was, like, no color. So, it's a interesting, like, memory to look back. (laughs)

   15. LFLex Fridman6:58

       What about fashion? I've noticed from sort of, uh, you now-

   16. YPYeonmi Park7:03

       Mm-hmm.

   17. LFLex Fridman7:03

       ... you're, you're, you have quite an incredible sense of fashion. So contrast that with your time in North Korea, how do you remember fashion? Just, or peop- ways that people could express themselves visually. Was it all bland?

   18. YPYeonmi Park7:16

       There was no word for fashion in North Korea.

   19. LFLex Fridman7:20

       (laughs)

   20. YPYeonmi Park7:20

       We didn't even know, it was not in our dictionary. So, of course, I did not know what Victoria's Secret models were. I didn't even know what models were. So when I came out, I learned model was a job.

   21. LFLex Fridman7:32

       (laughs)

   22. YPYeonmi Park7:32

       And like, "What is that?" And I'm still confused.

   23. LFLex Fridman7:35

       (laughs)

   24. YPYeonmi Park7:35

       So there's so many jobs that-

   25. LFLex Fridman7:37

       Yeah.

   26. YPYeonmi Park7:37

       ... we have here doesn't exist in North Korea.

   27. LFLex Fridman7:40

       What was life like in, uh, North Korea as compared to the rest of the world? So maybe you said there's no internet.

   28. YPYeonmi Park7:46

       Mm-hmm.

   29. LFLex Fridman7:47

       Uh, 24-hour electricity-

   30. YPYeonmi Park7:49

       Mm-hmm.
3. 9:22 – 15:37

   Animal Farm

   1. YPYeonmi Park9:22

      Yeah.

   2. LFLex Fridman9:23

      So you've, uh... I have to say, I often say that my favorite book-

   3. YPYeonmi Park9:28

      Mm-hmm.

   4. LFLex Fridman9:28

      ... is Animal Farm-

   5. YPYeonmi Park9:29

      Mm-hmm.

   6. LFLex Fridman9:29

      ... by George Orwell. I've, uh, read it, I don't know how many times. And so I was really happy to hear that-

   7. YPYeonmi Park9:36

      Mm-hmm.

   8. LFLex Fridman9:36

      ... that was, uh, of the many books, excellent books that you, that we'll hopefully talk about-

   9. YPYeonmi Park9:41

      Mm-hmm.

   10. LFLex Fridman9:41

       ... you mentioned that Ani- Animal Farm had a big impact on you. It was the book that kind of, uh, led to a, a kind of awakening for you. Maybe can you describe what impact it had?

   11. YPYeonmi Park9:55

       So after going through what I went through, right, and I arrived in South Korea after many years of journey, they were saying, "So Kims were dictators and South Korea is now colonized by American ambassadors. And Americans, first of all, not bastards, they're good people." And then they said, "Everything that you believed in North Korea was a lie. It was a propaganda." Then at 15, I was thinking, "So if everything that I believe was a lie, how do I know what you are telling me is not lie?"

   12. LFLex Fridman10:23

       (laughs)

   13. YPYeonmi Park10:24

       That was so hard. How do I trust ever again? And I just, it was chaos in belief, right? I did not know what was true anymore. And that's the moment, few years later, I read this book, like Animal Farm, just by mistake. It was a very short book in the library. I was like, "Okay, I can finish that quickly." And when they're ending that, like last chapter, right, they could not see between the pigs and humans anymore, right? That sentence. I just understood everything what happened. I just under- it made every sense to me, what happened to me, my people, and to my country.

   14. LFLex Fridman11:03

       Yeah. That there's, uh, there's so many things I could say about that book. But, uh-

   15. YPYeonmi Park11:07

       (laughs)

   16. LFLex Fridman11:08

       Yeah, there's a haunting nature to the end. And I guess spoiler alert, but you should have read this already-

   17. YPYeonmi Park11:14

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   18. LFLex Fridman11:14

       ... if you're listening to this. Um, at the end, the animals were looking to the humans-

   19. YPYeonmi Park11:20

       Mm-hmm.

   20. LFLex Fridman11:21

       ... and to the pigs and they couldn't see the difference. And then there's this kind of gradual transition from the initial revolutionary steps-

   21. YPYeonmi Park11:32

       Mm-hmm.

   22. LFLex Fridman11:32

       ... of animals fighting for their freedom to slowly, uh, the pigs gaining control went from four legs good, two legs bad-

   23. YPYeonmi Park11:42

       Mm-hmm.

   24. LFLex Fridman11:42

       ... to, uh, four legs good, two legs better, I believe.

   25. YPYeonmi Park11:47

       Two legs even better, I think.

   26. LFLex Fridman11:49

       Yeah.

   27. YPYeonmi Park11:49

       Something like that. They were... (laughs)

   28. LFLex Fridman11:50

       So, like, gradually transitioning-

   29. YPYeonmi Park11:52

       Yeah.

   30. LFLex Fridman11:53

       ... the ideology under which the farm operates.
4. 15:37 – 20:25

   Search for meaning

   1. LFLex Fridman15:37

   2. YPYeonmi Park15:37

      Right.

   3. LFLex Fridman15:37

      So you mentioned anger. When I watch your interviews, you're really calm and collected. Not just your interviews-

   4. YPYeonmi Park15:46

      Mm-hmm.

   5. LFLex Fridman15:46

      ... you know, Instagram, the way you present yourself.

   6. YPYeonmi Park15:49

      Mm-hmm.

   7. LFLex Fridman15:49

      You, um, I don't know, it seems like you're almost at peace with the world.

   8. YPYeonmi Park15:56

      (laughs)

   9. LFLex Fridman15:56

      Um, is there in private times when you're just angry? Do you feel fear? Do you go to dark places, depression, all those kinds of things? Are y- are you able to put that world that you were in behind you?

   10. YPYeonmi Park16:11

       It's a joke because I talk about North Korea every single day.

   11. LFLex Fridman16:15

       Mm-hmm.

   12. YPYeonmi Park16:15

       And I used to rescue people like from China and Russia and other countries, right? And sometimes our rescue mission fails and they get captured and sent back. I used to have, uh, people in North Korea report to me. So like when I talk to my sister who chose to not be in this life, activist life, she forgot most of things. And like for the other hand I like remember everything. So-

   13. LFLex Fridman16:43

       (sighs)

   14. YPYeonmi Park16:43

       ... sometimes it's, uh, it's, it's a blessing to keep reminded of how... 'cause it's, you know, they say happiness is a relative thing. It is sometimes. I mean, and the thing is also people say because nobody was following you when you were growing up, everybody was suffering, you should have been okay, right? But no, like if you are suffering that degree, no matter even if there is no comparison, like if you were in Nazi Germany in the Holocaust, right, in the, in the concentration camp, I'm sure nobody was better than them, I'm sure they were suffering. It's the same thing. I suffered, but now because I'm in this place I can compare easily, right? Getting that perspective. But it is true, like I still have days that I cannot get out of bed-

   15. LFLex Fridman17:28

       (sighs)

   16. YPYeonmi Park17:28

       ... and I'm really hoping like that where was it, Elon Musk talking about downloading your brain, blah, blah.

   17. LFLex Fridman17:34

       (laughing) Yeah.

   18. YPYeonmi Park17:34

       It's like if maybe technology develops that I can download some part of my memory and then I can erase your... (laughs) like remember they delete it, and that would be so much better.

   19. LFLex Fridman17:44

       Would I... this is a... sorry for the tough question.

   20. YPYeonmi Park17:48

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   21. LFLex Fridman17:48

       But if I came to you... if Elon came to you and said-

   22. YPYeonmi Park17:52

       Mm-hmm.

   23. LFLex Fridman17:52

       ... "We can erase that part of your memory," would you do it?

   24. YPYeonmi Park17:57

       Some days I would do it for sure and my mom would do it 100%. My sister would do it. All other defectors know, they do it 100%. For me I re- hesitated because I'm a witness.... so if I delete that part, I don't know how real that can be, but it is painful. Like, after I talk, give a speech, right, I mean, I'm fine, but somehow I'm depressed. Sometimes if the talk was very intense, I'm, like, depressed for three weeks.

   25. LFLex Fridman18:25

       Mm-hmm.

   26. YPYeonmi Park18:26

       It takes a while for me to be recharged. But I don't know why it is, you know?

   27. LFLex Fridman18:30

       Yeah.

   28. YPYeonmi Park18:31

       I, I just don't know. (laughs)

   29. LFLex Fridman18:33

       (laughs)

   30. YPYeonmi Park18:33

       Yeah. (laughs)
5. 20:25 – 22:42

   Love

   1. YPYeonmi Park20:25

      Yeah.

   2. LFLex Fridman20:25

      So I talk, uh, about love quite a bit. (laughs)

   3. YPYeonmi Park20:28

      Yeah. (laughs)

   4. LFLex Fridman20:28

      And you mentioned that romantic love, uh-

   5. YPYeonmi Park20:31

      Mm-hmm.

   6. LFLex Fridman20:31

      Well, I'm fascinated about love in many aspects.

   7. YPYeonmi Park20:34

      Mm-hmm.

   8. LFLex Fridman20:35

      Um, but you s- you mentioned romantic love was forbidden in North Korea.

   9. YPYeonmi Park20:39

      Yeah.

   10. LFLex Fridman20:41

       What do you think about love now that you've kind of discovered it? What's the role of love in life? Why was it-

   11. YPYeonmi Park20:51

       Mm-hmm.

   12. LFLex Fridman20:51

       ... so f- why do you think it was forbidden in North Korea?

   13. YPYeonmi Park20:54

       So the tragic thing about North Korea is not only just banning Shakespeare, like we don't even know what Romeo and Juliet is, right?

   14. LFLex Fridman21:00

       Mm-hmm.

   15. YPYeonmi Park21:01

       Our movies is never about love stories. But then also they ban the love between mother and daughter, wife and husband, and you know-

   16. LFLex Fridman21:11

       (sighs) Yeah.

   17. YPYeonmi Park21:11

       ... and y- between your friends, they deny you being a human. So only love that I knew was when I described my feeling towards the leader and in a written form, that was the only p- love that people know in North Korea. And now, I mean, like, there are many loves you can experience. I mean, I think you definitely love science, right? But imagine that if you're being denied that.

   18. LFLex Fridman21:35

       Yeah.

   19. YPYeonmi Park21:35

       So there's so many loves in life, but in North Korea all of those things are denied. And I think for me is love m- what makes you tick, like, you know, love for your child, love for your parents, love for your friends, love for even yourself, that is denied. So, I mean, many people say like love is an option, but, like, then why do you live? I think we live to love and it doesn't have to be romantic love, it can be anything, but finding love any, in any person or, you know, any subject, I think that's a goal, I think that's when people find the meaning in something.

   20. LFLex Fridman22:12

       Yeah, I think love, romantic love, is just one sort of-

   21. YPYeonmi Park22:15

       Part of it.

   22. LFLex Fridman22:16

       ... yeah, one echo of the-

   23. YPYeonmi Park22:18

       Yeah.

   24. LFLex Fridman22:18

       ... some core thing. Yeah, science, I love science, I love robots, all of those things and-

   25. YPYeonmi Park22:22

       Mm-hmm.

   26. LFLex Fridman22:22

       ... it sounds like deliberately or not, the North Korean regime wants to channel that very deep aspect of the human spirit-

   27. YPYeonmi Park22:33

       Mm-hmm.

   28. LFLex Fridman22:34

       ... all towards the leader.

   29. YPYeonmi Park22:35

       Yeah. That's it.

   30. LFLex Fridman22:38

       (sighs)
6. 22:42 – 27:06

   Language

   1. YPYeonmi Park22:42

      I mean, you read 1984 by George Orwell, it talks about doublethink and doublespeak, who controls language, who controls thoughts, and why he does talk about... as they go, they, like, eliminate a lot of words, right? Now, like, later one word can represent 10 different things. And, like, what fascinates me is, like, how many vocabulary meaning people can have. And, like, when I literally came out, I remember I went, I went to San Francisco and someone (laughs) came to me and hugged me and then he was a guy, he's like, "Oh, baby don't worry, I'm gay." I was like, "What the heck is gay? I don't know." Right? (laughs)

   2. LFLex Fridman23:21

      (laughs)

   3. YPYeonmi Park23:21

      And then literally had to go to a hotel room and Google "gay" and I was like, "Oh, that's what you meant." (laughs)

   4. LFLex Fridman23:26

      (laughs)

   5. YPYeonmi Park23:26

      And like that, like, they deny what that is. I'm sure there are gays in North Korea.

   6. LFLex Fridman23:31

      Yeah.

   7. YPYeonmi Park23:31

      I'm sure there is, but you don't know what it is.

   8. LFLex Fridman23:35

      Yeah.

   9. YPYeonmi Park23:35

      And like that they eliminate words, so the fact that you know the concept, that is... stays much better than... And that, that's the thing a lot of people, like, when you're born you somehow know what justice is-

   10. LFLex Fridman23:47

       Yeah.

   11. YPYeonmi Park23:47

       ... what liberty is, and it's all somebody taught you that.

   12. LFLex Fridman23:51

       (laughs)

   13. YPYeonmi Park23:51

       And, like, that's the thing why people is like, "Oh, humans, uh, inherently know what is right, what is wrong, what is oppression." And like, no, that's, like, BS. You gotta learn. (laughs)

   14. LFLex Fridman24:02

       That's fascinating that words give, uh, rise to ideas.

   15. YPYeonmi Park24:07

       Yeah.

   16. LFLex Fridman24:07

       So, like, as a child-... one of the ways to learn about justice and freedom is to first learn the word.

   17. YPYeonmi Park24:14

       Yeah.

   18. LFLex Fridman24:14

       And then to ask, "Well, what is it?" (laughs)

   19. YPYeonmi Park24:16

       Yeah, (laughs) the concepts, yeah.

   20. LFLex Fridman24:18

       And if, and if you don't have the word for it-

   21. YPYeonmi Park24:19

       Mm-hmm.

   22. LFLex Fridman24:20

       ... then you never have the kind of first spark that leads to you trying to be curious about it. That's interesting, controlling the words and then, yeah, I mean-

   23. YPYeonmi Park24:28

       Controlling your thoughts, right?

   24. LFLex Fridman24:29

       And can, con- you control the thoughts.

   25. YPYeonmi Park24:31

       Yeah.

   26. LFLex Fridman24:31

       There's so many echoes. I mean, I have, uh, it's a v- it's a very different but perhaps a very similar experience, which is the journey of my family through the Soviet Union.

   27. YPYeonmi Park24:42

       Mm-hmm.

   28. LFLex Fridman24:44

       Because there is a love of country, there is a pride of the people.

   29. YPYeonmi Park24:48

       Yeah.

   30. LFLex Fridman24:48

       Like, you are proud of your family-
7. 27:06 – 29:07

   Yeonmi's dad

   1. YPYeonmi Park27:06

   2. LFLex Fridman27:06

      Your, your dad, uh, can you tell the story of, um, of his struggle, um, uh, of his death?

   3. YPYeonmi Park27:16

      Mm-hmm.

   4. LFLex Fridman27:17

      I mean, first, do you miss him? Do you think about him?

   5. YPYeonmi Park27:20

      Oh, man, all the time. Like, I had a son when I was 22 and I had IVF three times and I'm not, as you see, I'm like 80 pounds, but back then I was like 75 pounds. And because of my severe malnutrition, somehow my body's very different. And so after three (laughs) times of AVF, IVF after 23, I was still wanting family. And the reason I wanted him is because I felt so guilty for my father that he never seen this world. I somehow, like when you're so desperate you become illogical, like, I want to believe in the reincarnat- like, Buddhist idea, right, you come back to life. And I prayed, "Please come to me, like, as my son so I will take care of you. Like, come back." And when I was pregnant with my son, even though I planned to, pregnant with a girl, (laughs) doctor made a mistake, it became a boy. (laughs)

   6. LFLex Fridman28:20

      (laughs)

   7. YPYeonmi Park28:20

      So I made his middle name like my father's name, Jin-sick. I think he's the only North, American got North Korean name. (laughs)

   8. LFLex Fridman28:28

      (laughs)

   9. YPYeonmi Park28:29

      (laughs) I know. It is.

   10. LFLex Fridman28:30

       So he's, so part of your father is in your son?

   11. YPYeonmi Park28:33

       Yeah. That's how I, that's how I make the sense of it and that's how I move forward. Like, if I, like, as a logical human being, you, you, you know when you're dead, you're dead. Maybe, like, that's what I at least used to think. But then, life's become too unbearable. And somehow, that's the thing, like, we tell ourselves stories in order to live. And that's how I came with the, my title of the book, In Order To Live. I had to tell myself a lot of stories to overcome a lot of things. I think obviously it was part of it.

8. 29:07 – 34:24

   Escaping North Korea

   1. LFLex Fridman29:07

      Can you tell the story of, um, you escaping North Korea to China?

   2. YPYeonmi Park29:14

      Yeah. I think it's, it's a thing, it's amazing, uh, even though I was like 13, right, like, life outside of North Korea is almost like it went by like one second and my life till that point was like eternity.

   3. LFLex Fridman29:33

      Wow.

   4. YPYeonmi Park29:33

      I remember being in China, I arrived there at the end of March at 13, and by October, it was six months passed and I literally felt like I lived eternity. And one day living in China felt like living one year. One day was war, like, surviving through one day was so hard. Every night I was like, "I cannot believe I got through one day today."

   5. LFLex Fridman30:01

      (laughs)

   6. YPYeonmi Park30:02

      (laughs) That was the thing why I was grateful for before I went to bed, "Okay, I survived, I didn't get captured and I made it another day on earth."

   7. LFLex Fridman30:11

      So, the experience of the minutes is, is what, fear? Fear of being captured?

   8. YPYeonmi Park30:17

      (sighs) ... fear, loss, everything. It's, um, because, I mean, I sold my own mom in China to survive, like to... So, it was even more than that and it's not feeling, I think that's the thing. In China, I learned not to feel, and after my escape was, uh, challenging, I didn't feel anything and it was hard. Not feeling anything is a torture. It's the biggest torture you can ever feel. Like even you feel sadness, that's better than not feeling anything. And I felt something when I had my son, that's when I started healing. So he was a miracle to save me. But yeah, in China it wasn't even fear, like it was numb.

   9. LFLex Fridman31:08

      You were numb?

   10. YPYeonmi Park31:09

       Yeah.

   11. LFLex Fridman31:09

       So it's like paralysis?

   12. YPYeonmi Park31:11

       Yeah.

   13. LFLex Fridman31:12

       Just overwhelming. Un- the uncertainty of your future, did you have a sense what your future h- held at the time?

   14. YPYeonmi Park31:19

       Like, what do you mean even future? I don't even know that word, right? Like, a lot of times I was looking at myself like I left my body and like just looking at me, and just not feeling anything. It's not like I'm scared for her, I'm not sad for her, just looking at me like, huh, that's interesting.

   15. LFLex Fridman31:37

       Wow.

   16. YPYeonmi Park31:38

       Not feeling anything.

   17. LFLex Fridman31:40

       Yeah.

   18. YPYeonmi Park31:40

       And meaning, like being raped, going through every emotion of life to survive, right? Like, but like, like somehow s- I don't know you say soul or something, like looking at it just like, you feel nothing.

   19. LFLex Fridman31:54

       Yeah.

   20. YPYeonmi Park31:54

       You don't feel anything for that person.

   21. LFLex Fridman31:57

       So even with your mom, like what was ... Was there some, I don't know, some warmth that you were able to extract from the connection with your mom?

   22. YPYeonmi Park32:10

       Yeah. Of course, I think that made me survive. I had a very strong connection with my family and I think that's what kept me going to do all of that. I think, as you said, I escaped at 13. My sister, at the age of 16, escaped with her friend first.

   23. LFLex Fridman32:29

       Mm-hmm.

   24. YPYeonmi Park32:29

       And (coughs) I was going to escape with her but one day, I got like really bad stomach ache and my parents took me to hospital. In North Korean hospital, they don't have like X-ray machines, like they don't even have electric X-ray. They're like literally using one needle to inject everybody.

   25. LFLex Fridman32:45

       Yeah.

   26. YPYeonmi Park32:46

       And people don't die from cancer in North Korea, you die from infection and fever and-

   27. LFLex Fridman32:50

       Yeah.

   28. YPYeonmi Park32:50

       ... hunger, right? So most likely you're gonna die more by being treated by a doctor than not being treated. I think I was lucky. Even though they thought I had appendix, they, they operate on me without any painkiller and I didn't get infection. (laughs) I survived. So that's how I got delayed to escape with my sister, and she left me a note in my bedside saying like, "Follow this lady." And this is like another trick about human trafficking, right? She sold me to China as a sexual slave and she executed for it later. And she had-

   29. LFLex Fridman33:27

       She was executed for that later?

   30. YPYeonmi Park33:29

       She had five daughters and she sold all her children to China. And we can now sitting here judging her like, "How heartless you are selling your own children to China." And as a sexual slave they were like, her children were like seven, 10 years old, but that was the only way for her to save her children. And if she didn't sell me that day, I would be dead right now. So I'm grateful that she sold me, and I think that's the thing is like life is so crazy you cannot judge. It's just so complex and, yeah, that's how she changed my life by selling me. She sold my mom and myself in 2007 to China.
9. 34:24 – 46:26

   The world is ignoring the genocide in North Korea

   1. LFLex Fridman34:25

      What do you make of the other suffering in the world today? The people there in North Korea?

   2. YPYeonmi Park34:30

      Mm-hmm.

   3. LFLex Fridman34:31

      So that is part of the, uh, your, of your life's work-

   4. YPYeonmi Park34:36

      Yeah.

   5. LFLex Fridman34:36

      ... is helping those people.

   6. YPYeonmi Park34:38

      Mm-hmm.

   7. LFLex Fridman34:39

      What, what do you think about them? What should people know about them?

   8. YPYeonmi Park34:42

      I think that's when I get angry-

   9. LFLex Fridman34:44

      (laughs)

   10. YPYeonmi Park34:44

       ... whenever I think about them. Like, I know-

   11. LFLex Fridman34:47

       Who's your anger directed at?

   12. YPYeonmi Park34:49

       At the heartlessness of people, the ignorance of people. Like, so when I got out of North Korea, right, going through all of that and I went to South Korea one day, I was watching television and this like famous Korean K-pop stars and s- crying and doing some fundraising concert. And I literally thought, I was like, "Oh my god, something is horribly going wrong in this country. Why are these people crying?" It was cheery like campaign and then later it was showing that (laughs) it was an animal rights campaign. They're helping out cats and puppies in the shelters.

   13. LFLex Fridman35:31

       Yeah.

   14. YPYeonmi Park35:33

       Do you know anybody who sheds their tears like that to another human being right now? Like, no. Right? People rather give a million dollars to save some dolphins than saving these children right now being raped in China. And I think... I love Elon Musk. I read his story. I love these people wanna like go the moon, Mars. And like people told him like, "Yeah, you went, we went into the moon." Like, I did not know in North Korea. But I think that's what upsets me. Like why there's not even one single human with that kind of brilliance in their brain. They, they can save so much suffering but nobody does anything. I think that's when I, I feel like hard to find hope in humanity, and that's when I get so upset.... because think about like even Biden or Trump or Obama, they know what's happening in North Korea exactly, right? I mean, if we- we see satellite photos, there's public executions. I mean, the UN says this is a holocaust happening again and it's happening. If the holocaust is happening again, how- why- how are you okay doing nothing about it? But somehow humans are able to okay nothing anything. And this is like- this is hard, like when people say, "I wanna change the world, I wanna make a difference," like it's hard to believe it, you know.

   15. LFLex Fridman36:58

       Yeah, that we can turn our back to human suffering at scale when it's right in front of us. I mean, that makes me think about the holocaust. Is this- just (laughs) everybody was looking the other way.

   16. YPYeonmi Park37:09

       Yeah.

   17. LFLex Fridman37:09

       Because it was almost too hard to look at it.

   18. YPYeonmi Park37:12

       No, it's not. It's an easier thing, like that's the thing. I was like here to speak at the South by Southwest a few years ago and like they're everywhere talking about Elon Musk project going to the moon, right?

   19. LFLex Fridman37:23

       Mm-hmm.

   20. YPYeonmi Park37:23

       We're gonna be multi-spe- like species. I was like (gasps) back then I did not even know who he was. I was, "So if you guys are trying to go outside this earth, you haven't even explored our earth yet."

   21. LFLex Fridman37:35

       Mm-hmm.

   22. YPYeonmi Park37:35

       "You cannot go to North Korea right now. You haven't explored that part of our- our like planet. Can we do that first and then move on?" (laughs)

   23. LFLex Fridman37:44

       (laughs) Explore the landscape of human suffering, like alleviate suffering in the world. There's, um, there's a lot of suffering happening in Africa that has to do with disease.

   24. YPYeonmi Park37:53

       Mm-hmm.

   25. LFLex Fridman37:54

       And for some reason it's e- even though we turn our back to that kind of suffering too, we still can try to do something about it and there's still efforts, uh, in terms of, uh, healthcare, in terms of medicine, in terms of bioengineering, in terms of like all these efforts to help people from disease. But like, that's almost like converting it into an engineering problem and trying to solve it, that somehow is easier for us humans.

   26. YPYeonmi Park38:20

       Mm-hmm.

   27. LFLex Fridman38:20

       But when there's obvious sort of non-disease related-

   28. YPYeonmi Park38:25

       (laughs)

   29. LFLex Fridman38:26

       ... torture of humans, we look the other way.

   30. YPYeonmi Park38:30

       Yeah.
10. 46:26 – 49:17

    Evil

    1. YPYeonmi Park46:27

    2. LFLex Fridman46:27

       Would you say that the evil comes from a tiny minority of people, or does it permeate much larger parts of the population? Like if we look at sex trafficking-

    3. YPYeonmi Park46:35

       Mm-hmm.

    4. LFLex Fridman46:37

       ... how many people... Like is it 99.9% of the people are s- are, um, (sighs) longing to do good in the world? Or is there, is it, uh... or do we all have the capacity for evil in certain kind of environments, certain kind of, uh, governmental structures inspire a large po- percent of the population to do bad things?

    5. YPYeonmi Park47:05

       I think humans are capable of anything. There's no exception. I don't think there's any saint who are born with immorality. I think in North Korea you can say initially that there's few guys in the top wanted the power, and then doing this. But eventually it made a society where people don't even know what com- compassion is.

    6. LFLex Fridman47:27

       Yeah.

    7. YPYeonmi Park47:27

       We don't know the concept of... We don't know that you need to feel bad for another human being when they're suffering.

    8. LFLex Fridman47:33

       Yeah.

    9. YPYeonmi Park47:33

       The fact that you know compassion is in your knowledge, that's why you do that. Humans need to learn. It's not anything bad about human nature, it's just saying humans are capable of everything. We are the most adaptable species on the planet. That's why we created internet, like talking this way, right? No other animals have done it, because we are so adaptable. That is a good thing and that's a bad thing. So in that adaptive situation, they all can be... I mean, during the Holocaust, right, those people, they could have been capable of good too if they were exposed to different system.

    10. LFLex Fridman48:08

        Yeah.

    11. YPYeonmi Park48:09

        And that's why when people underestimate evil, that's what scares me. Evil is evil. It's a different thing. It's a completely different thing. And of course, I clearly get your idea, we don't wanna isolate 1.3 billion human beings (laughs) in, on Earth via Chinese. But the thing is, we are talking about this regime, not the people. I love Chinese people, I speak Chinese, I love like all about that country. But the system does promote evil.

    12. LFLex Fridman48:40

        Well, that's an optimistic view actually because we can fix systems.

    13. YPYeonmi Park48:44

        Yeah.

    14. LFLex Fridman48:45

        Uh, it's harder to fix people. So if we fix systems and the people are adaptable-

    15. YPYeonmi Park48:49

        Absolutely.

    16. LFLex Fridman48:49

        ... as you said. I mean that, and then the question is, uh, first of all you have to talk about it just as you're doing.

    17. YPYeonmi Park48:56

        Yeah.

    18. LFLex Fridman48:56

        You're right now like this little flame that burns bright-

    19. YPYeonmi Park48:58

        (laughs)

    20. LFLex Fridman48:58

        ... and it's really important for North Korea. But just keep talking about it-

    21. YPYeonmi Park49:04

        Mm-hmm.

    22. LFLex Fridman49:04

        ... until there's a (sighs) ... Until hopefully it leads to at the highest levels of power-

    23. YPYeonmi Park49:11

        Mm-hmm.

    24. LFLex Fridman49:11

        ... re- revolutionizing the systems in the world. And then, uh, in China and, and in North

11. 49:17 – 50:07

    Nuclear war

    1. LFLex Fridman49:17

       Korea. Do you see North Korea being a potential instigator of a nuclear war?

    2. YPYeonmi Park49:23

       They will not start a nuclear war as long as they can do whatever they want right now, right? North Korea's army not designed to fight the enemy, they designed to prevent their own people, the coup d'etat and the revolution with their own citizens.

    3. LFLex Fridman49:40

       Yeah.

    4. YPYeonmi Park49:40

       That is 1.6 million or so. North Korea with a tiny country, the fourth largest armies in the world. (laughs) So this, this country designed to fight with their own citizens.

    5. LFLex Fridman49:53

       And the army, the fourth largest in the world, is designed to basically fight its own people.

    6. YPYeonmi Park50:00

       People. Oppress their own people, that's what-

    7. LFLex Fridman50:01

       Oppress their own people.

    8. YPYeonmi Park50:01

       ... North Korean military is about.

    9. LFLex Fridman50:05

       (sighs)

12. 50:07 – 55:20

    Marxist origins of North Korea

    1. LFLex Fridman50:07

       Okay. Let me, uh, ask you some aspects about North Korean life.

    2. YPYeonmi Park50:12

       Mm-hmm.

    3. LFLex Fridman50:12

       Can you describe the Songbun system of, uh, ascribed status used in North Korea?

    4. YPYeonmi Park50:18

       Yeah. So that's a very interesting thing, right? Right now there are a lot of people playing with this ideology of like democratic socialism, socialism, communism, whatever you call, Marxism, Leninism, right? They have all like this similar features where we give collective power to a certain entity.

    5. LFLex Fridman50:35

       Mm-hmm.

    6. YPYeonmi Park50:36

       And they will make the decision for the bigger good, right?

    7. LFLex Fridman50:39

       Mm-hmm.

    8. YPYeonmi Park50:40

       And North Korea came up with the idea that Kim Il-sung, he was the Leninist, he was Marxist, saying, "I'm gonna create the most equal society on human face." So it was a communist North Korea. And then they came up with this Songbun system, it's like family caste system.

    9. LFLex Fridman50:58

       Mm-hmm.

    10. YPYeonmi Park50:59

        Three big categories; warrior, wavering, and hostile. And that in building three classes, they divide into 50 different classes. So a lot of people don't even know which exact class you belong to, that's a secret government document and that's how they decide your future. So in a way in North Korea before you're born (laughs) your life is determined for you. And this is almost joke, right, they dreamed of creating the most equal society, they ended up with, became most unequal society in the face of humanity. So there are 50 different classes and where the one guy on the top became a god. So when this animal farm as we keep saying, like there's so many... all the animals are equal and some of animals more-

    11. LFLex Fridman51:42

        More equal than others?

    12. YPYeonmi Park51:43

        Exactly. But-

    13. LFLex Fridman51:44

        Oh boy.

    14. YPYeonmi Park51:45

        ... but it's not only it's just more equal. One guy in North Korea became a god.

    15. LFLex Fridman51:49

        So North Korea was born out of, uh, Marxist ideals.

    16. YPYeonmi Park51:55

        Yeah.

    17. LFLex Fridman51:55

        Can you-

    18. YPYeonmi Park51:55

        From Stalin.

    19. LFLex Fridman51:57

        Can you comment on, uh, Juche ideology which seems to be (laughs) -

    20. YPYeonmi Park52:03

        (laughs)

    21. LFLex Fridman52:04

        ... its own kind of socialism.

    22. YPYeonmi Park52:07

        Yeah.

    23. LFLex Fridman52:07

        But, um, with unique aspects here.

    24. YPYeonmi Park52:11

        Mm-hmm.

    25. LFLex Fridman52:11

        It really does ideologically says the importance of having a great leader.

    26. YPYeonmi Park52:16

        Yeah.

    27. LFLex Fridman52:17

        Um, is there some interesting similarities or differences that you can comment on between other implementations of communism throughout history?

    28. YPYeonmi Park52:25

        Right.

    29. LFLex Fridman52:25

        The Soviet Union, China, elsewhere.

    30. YPYeonmi Park52:29

        So Juche is very unique. It came on around the 90s after Soviet Union collapsed. So before that North Korea was very still loyal to the Marxism and Leninism, which is state takes care of you.
13. 55:20 – 1:00:07

    Famine

    1. YPYeonmi Park55:20

       can do.

    2. LFLex Fridman55:20

       The, there's something about famine, you know, that, um, is another, is another level of evil-

    3. YPYeonmi Park55:34

       Mm-hmm.

    4. LFLex Fridman55:35

       ... to me. You know, what Stalin did in Ukraine in the '30s-

    5. YPYeonmi Park55:40

       Yeah.

    6. LFLex Fridman55:43

       ... fuck 'em.

    7. YPYeonmi Park55:44

       Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    8. LFLex Fridman55:46

       This is what torture is. Cannibalism.

    9. YPYeonmi Park55:49

       Yeah.

    10. LFLex Fridman55:50

        And, um-

    11. YPYeonmi Park55:52

        North Korea too, they eat humans right now in 21st century. Seven billion people on this earth right now, you make the, enough food for 10 billion people. Nobody should be starving right now. It's worrisome to me that humanity is moving forward with technological advance, blah, blah. We are going so fast in, in advancement and we are leaving this like 25 millions human beings in the cage, completely leaving them behind. And North Koreans are living like 16th centuries. I never... Like this morning I was taking a shower, beautiful shower, like one never knew what a shower was. I was bathing few y- few times a year going to the like river. How do they even know what shampoo is? And this is how human beings in 21st is living and it doesn't bother us, and rather most people are obsessed with being a vegan. (laughs) And like how, how do you reconcile this?

    12. LFLex Fridman56:49

        I think we get used to stuff very quickly. We get used to comforts. That's just the way of human life. You, you take the beautiful things for granted. Um, so I try to appreciate everything I have so whether it's, uh, like the food I have now or like the luxury to have a diet and, and be struggling with that-

    13. YPYeonmi Park57:06

        Yeah.

    14. LFLex Fridman57:06

        ... or just the basic simple moments of being alive with the people I love, or actually I get like... I feel-

    15. YPYeonmi Park57:12

        (laughs)

    16. LFLex Fridman57:12

        I think I'm on drugs all the time because-

    17. YPYeonmi Park57:14

        (laughs)

    18. LFLex Fridman57:14

        ... I feel like just even like, uh, this mug, everything on this table-

    19. YPYeonmi Park57:18

        Mm-hmm.

    20. LFLex Fridman57:18

        ... just brings me joy.

    21. YPYeonmi Park57:19

        Mm-hmm.

    22. LFLex Fridman57:20

        Uh, but it's y- like filling your life with joy in the full capitalistic American way, you can still at the same time, uh, not feel too bad about yourself-

    23. YPYeonmi Park57:31

        No.

    24. LFLex Fridman57:32

        ... and still focus on the, the suffering in the world. And I think there's some way that in trying to build a better world in America-

    25. YPYeonmi Park57:45

        Mm-hmm.

    26. LFLex Fridman57:45

        ... it has ripple effects elsewhere.

    27. YPYeonmi Park57:48

        Yeah.

    28. LFLex Fridman57:48

        Sort of like... So I'm a fan of rockets in space.

    29. YPYeonmi Park57:53

        Mm-hmm.

    30. LFLex Fridman57:54

        It's, it sounds perhaps counterintuitive but sending rockets to space will help solve the North Korea, uh, uh, problem-
14. 1:00:07 – 1:06:43

    Kim Jong-un is pure evil

    1. LFLex Fridman1:00:07

       What about, uh, Kim Jong-un?

    2. YPYeonmi Park1:00:10

       Kim Jong-un, yeah.

    3. LFLex Fridman1:00:12

       Is he intentionally evil or is he mindla- mindlessly propagating an evil system created by his ancestors? What's your sense of the man?

    4. YPYeonmi Park1:00:23

       So, with Kim Il-sung, I can give him more benefit of the doubt. He was a initial true believer of communism but then as later he gained the power, he realizing, I think, I guess back then he thought most of people are dumb, right? Individuals dumb so therefore I need to make the decision for all of you.

    5. LFLex Fridman1:00:42

       Yeah.

    6. YPYeonmi Park1:00:43

       That pure arrogance came from out of him. Even that I can tolerate. Okay, fine.... and Kim Jong-il, who never like... Yeah, fine, he grew up in that system too, but Kim Jong-un is very unique. This guy was educated in Switzerland, in the heart of democracy. He knew how human beings should be treated. As a child, he went. When you're a child, your brain is very susceptible.

    7. LFLex Fridman1:01:11

       Yeah.

    8. YPYeonmi Park1:01:11

       Right? You change anybody. Like why the Mao was so obsessed with changing young people's minds. Like that's every revolutionary, they do, right? They go change young people's minds first. This guy was so obsessed with power, him being a god. Even studying in Switzerland didn't change him, and that's why I think that's a pure evil. You know, I can give more benefit of the doubt to his grandfather and father, but when it comes to Kim Jong-un, this is like what pure evil looks like, pure selfish being.

    9. LFLex Fridman1:01:43

       Yeah.

    10. YPYeonmi Park1:01:44

        That's what he looks like.

    11. LFLex Fridman1:01:46

        Is there, is there some sense where he's justifying everything he's doing to himself or do you think there's a psychopathic aspect to where he enjoys the suffering?

    12. YPYeonmi Park1:01:57

        I think in his life, right, I read a lot about like North Korea, (laughs) a lot of CIA documents, a lot of intelligence people worked there and even like worked in North Korean type elites and escaped. I l- like, hear about them. So Kim Jong-un, when he- they are born, they treat like gods. So they never have a sense of them being a human.

    13. LFLex Fridman1:02:19

        Mm.

    14. YPYeonmi Park1:02:20

        They're like equal with the others. For them, like, we are just any kind of tool. Like that what Napoleon, uh, like, thing does, right? Anybody's a tool. Like once boxer dies, get him slaughtered for my cause.

    15. LFLex Fridman1:02:32

        Mm-hmm.

    16. YPYeonmi Park1:02:33

        And they do not even feel guilty about it because they don't view us that you deserve- you're worthy of it.

    17. LFLex Fridman1:02:38

        Yeah, that's right.

    18. YPYeonmi Park1:02:39

        So it's not like he even feels... He doesn't even recognize that's a suffering. Like, of course you s- you... This is, this is what you do, serving me because-

    19. LFLex Fridman1:02:48

        Right.

    20. YPYeonmi Park1:02:49

        ... I am, I am this. So I think that's like beyond that. Like he's not... Like suffering enters his mind. He doesn't even think what we go through.

    21. LFLex Fridman1:02:58

        So he thinks of himself as a, as a god-

    22. YPYeonmi Park1:03:00

        Yeah.

    23. LFLex Fridman1:03:00

        ... and then everybody else is just, uh, tools that, that are disposable.

    24. YPYeonmi Park1:03:04

        Right.

    25. LFLex Fridman1:03:05

        There was rumors several times of him dying.

    26. YPYeonmi Park1:03:08

        Yeah.

    27. LFLex Fridman1:03:09

        Do you think he is, um... O- obviously his health is not good.

    28. YPYeonmi Park1:03:14

        Mm.

    29. LFLex Fridman1:03:14

        Do you think he will die soon? What happens if Kim Jong-un dies?

    30. YPYeonmi Park1:03:21

        Well, it... When it comes to North Korea, anybody knows what they are going... (laughs) What Kim Jong-un does is lie, right? Nobody knows. I'm sure CIA knows, but they may- never reveal that. CIA has enough intelligence to- can tell where Kim Jong-un is, what he's doing. They just don't assassinate him because they don't see the means of it right now 'cause it's-
15. 1:06:43 – 1:09:55

    Freedom

    1. YPYeonmi Park1:06:43

    2. LFLex Fridman1:06:43

       Can we talk a little bit about freedom? What, what does it mean to you?

    3. YPYeonmi Park1:06:47

       Mm.

    4. LFLex Fridman1:06:47

       Having had... We talked about love-

    5. YPYeonmi Park1:06:50

       Mm-hmm.

    6. LFLex Fridman1:06:51

       ... in th- in that same way, about freedom.

    7. YPYeonmi Park1:06:52

       Mm-hmm.

    8. LFLex Fridman1:06:53

       ... having sort of discovered it later in life. (laughs)

    9. YPYeonmi Park1:06:56

       Mm-hmm.

    10. LFLex Fridman1:06:56

        Uh, what does it mean to you?

    11. YPYeonmi Park1:07:00

        I think every day I, I get new definition of freedom.

    12. LFLex Fridman1:07:04

        (laughs)

    13. YPYeonmi Park1:07:04

        It is, it's a, it's a never-ending journey, having this relationship with being free and what it means to be free, right? I think, I think, uh, you definitely can live life without being free and also happy life too. I saw a lot of North Korean elites who are, who are fed and have power but didn't have freedom or have very happy, in a way, happier than the people that I found in New York were like investment bankers and consultants in Manhattan, and 70% of them go like to a talk to a therapist.

    14. LFLex Fridman1:07:38

        Mm-hmm.

    15. YPYeonmi Park1:07:39

        I was very confused. I remember writing my book in New York, like my editor was saying, "Yeonmi, you know, like you're traumatized, you need to go talk to a therapist."

    16. LFLex Fridman1:07:48

        Mm-hmm.

    17. YPYeonmi Park1:07:49

        And I was like, "What is therapy?" (laughs)

    18. LFLex Fridman1:07:50

        (laughs)

    19. YPYeonmi Park1:07:50

        Right? What is trauma? Because in North Korea they don't have word for stress or trauma, because how can you be stressed in a socialist paradise?

    20. LFLex Fridman1:07:59

        Mm-hmm.

    21. YPYeonmi Park1:07:59

        So they don't let you be knowing what that is. (laughs)

    22. LFLex Fridman1:08:01

        Yes.

    23. YPYeonmi Park1:08:02

        So, and then they were like, "Yeah, here in people having problems, go talk to therapist." And I was like, like, "How much is it?" They're like, "$200 per hour and it's a discounted rate too." I was like, "No, thank you." (laughs)

    24. LFLex Fridman1:08:17

        (laughs)

    25. YPYeonmi Park1:08:17

        You know, I was like, no.

    26. LFLex Fridman1:08:18

        Yeah.

    27. YPYeonmi Park1:08:19

        And, we know that freedom comes with responsibility, and in a way it's not that easy to be free, thinking for yourself constantly. Like when you... In a way I understand, like, let's give government every power we have, let them decide what education that I get, let them decide where I live, like, you know, let someone figure that out for me. And that's how North Korea began, hoping the government gonna represent my own interest, believing that they were good. And with that benefit of doubt and good faith it began the nightmare, right?

    28. LFLex Fridman1:08:54

        Yeah.

    29. YPYeonmi Park1:08:55

        So, freedom is not like a gateway to be happy at all; in a way it can make life a lot more complex. But then it's fun-

    30. LFLex Fridman1:09:04

        Mm-hmm.
16. 1:09:55 – 1:13:35

    Michael Malice

    1. LFLex Fridman1:09:55

       that.

    2. YPYeonmi Park1:09:55

       Mm-hmm.

    3. LFLex Fridman1:09:56

       So you talked, you're friends with, uh, Michael Malice.

    4. YPYeonmi Park1:09:58

       Mm-hmm.

    5. LFLex Fridman1:10:00

       He believes... And so I wanna kind of ask you about government.

    6. YPYeonmi Park1:10:03

       Mm-hmm.

    7. LFLex Fridman1:10:03

       Uh, (laughs) he believes... He's an anarchist-

    8. YPYeonmi Park1:10:06

       Yeah.

    9. LFLex Fridman1:10:06

       ... and, and he believes kind of in freedom fully implemented in, in human societies, meaning that humans should, uh, uh, all be free to choose how they, um, you know, transact with each other, how they live together.

    10. YPYeonmi Park1:10:25

        Mm-hmm.

    11. LFLex Fridman1:10:25

        There shouldn't be a centralized force that tells you what to do.

    12. YPYeonmi Park1:10:29

        Mm-hmm.

    13. LFLex Fridman1:10:30

        Do you think there's some role for government in, um, in a healthy society?

    14. YPYeonmi Park1:10:36

        Yeah.

    15. LFLex Fridman1:10:36

        So, y- y- w- if we look at North Korea-

    16. YPYeonmi Park1:10:38

        Mm-hmm.

    17. LFLex Fridman1:10:38

        ... there's th- the most horrible implementation of government.

    18. YPYeonmi Park1:10:42

        Mm-hmm.

    19. LFLex Fridman1:10:42

        But then if we look at what the United States strives to be, at least in principle, there's, um, there's an ideal of a government that represents the people and helps the people. Like is there, is there a place for that kind of ideal or is government always gonna get us into trouble?

    20. YPYeonmi Park1:11:00

        I am not... I mean, I've spoke to Michael Malice, I kept asking why, why he's anarchist, right? And he doesn't believe in military, none of it. (laughs)

    21. LFLex Fridman1:11:09

        (laughs)

    22. YPYeonmi Park1:11:10

        And it's, I was like, I was like, "I don't think I wanna be in that world (laughs) you're describing, right?"

    23. LFLex Fridman1:11:14

        (laughs)

    24. YPYeonmi Park1:11:14

        "That's pretty scary." I want the law enforcement, I want like... I don't... The, in a way that... So, why equality makes no sense is that the fact that when you and I were born, we were born in a very different capability of thinking, different intelligence, different capability in our physics, right? So equality is nonsense, you can never achieve that, (laughs) right? So to me, that's when it's very scary and-

    25. LFLex Fridman1:11:43

        When the government tries to enforce-

    26. YPYeonmi Park1:11:44

        ... to make e- equality on everybody. That is, uh, impossible. That's-

    27. LFLex Fridman1:11:48

        Specifically equality of outcome. So like-

    28. YPYeonmi Park1:11:51

        Yeah.

    29. LFLex Fridman1:11:51

        So d- given that we all start at different places, enforce, uh, like measure in some kind of way where people stand and-

    30. YPYeonmi Park1:11:58

        Mm-hmm.
17. 1:13:35 – 1:20:55

    Diversity

    1. YPYeonmi Park1:13:35

    2. LFLex Fridman1:13:35

       Are there things that you see in the United States and the current culture-

    3. YPYeonmi Park1:13:39

       Mm-hmm.

    4. LFLex Fridman1:13:39

       ... that kind of has echoes of the same things you saw in North Korea that, that worry you?

    5. YPYeonmi Park1:13:47

       So-

    6. LFLex Fridman1:13:47

       That like-

    7. YPYeonmi Park1:13:47

       ... much. Absolutely. It's, it's, um, it's in America now, the meritocracy doesn't matter, right? It's evil. The white man's idea of like talking about if you're competent enough, they say, "Oh, if you're coming from rich white family, you are gonna be competent," so other people don't have a chance. But look at Asians who came from nothing as competent and go to like Harvard Law School and medical school.

    8. LFLex Fridman1:14:13

       Yeah.

    9. YPYeonmi Park1:14:13

       So, it doesn't almost is like there's no incentive for you to work hard anymore in the system right now. That is North Korea. There's no incentive because you're born with your class already. So, no matter what you do, you can never... So, the horrible thing about North Korean system is that there's nothing even holding marry up.

    10. LFLex Fridman1:14:33

        Mm-hmm.

    11. YPYeonmi Park1:14:33

        So, if you're coming from other cultures that like Meghan Markle joined the royal family and she became a royal, you go up.

    12. LFLex Fridman1:14:40

        Mm-hmm.

    13. YPYeonmi Park1:14:40

        But in North Korea, if someone from high class is gonna marry somebody down, you only go down with them.

    14. LFLex Fridman1:14:46

        Mm-hmm.

    15. YPYeonmi Park1:14:46

        That's how they prevent class mix.

    16. LFLex Fridman1:14:49

        Right. The, the, they, that kind of enforces the separation 'cause there's a huge disincentives to g- go, uh, to marry, to, uh, to-

    17. YPYeonmi Park1:14:56

        Some of the-

    18. LFLex Fridman1:14:56

        ... integrate between classes.

    19. YPYeonmi Park1:14:58

        Yeah.

    20. LFLex Fridman1:15:00

        What do you do about this kind of, um, you know, especially in universities but in companies-

    21. YPYeonmi Park1:15:05

        Mm-hmm.

    22. LFLex Fridman1:15:06

        ... I'm thinking about starting a company so I'm looking at this very carefully. There's these ideas of diversity-

    23. YPYeonmi Park1:15:12

        Ugh. (laughs)

    24. LFLex Fridman1:15:14

        ... and, and meritocracy that's a tension.

    25. YPYeonmi Park1:15:16

        Yeah.

    26. LFLex Fridman1:15:17

        So, I think there's, there's a big way in which diversity broadly defined-

    27. YPYeonmi Park1:15:23

        Mm.

    28. LFLex Fridman1:15:23

        ... is not at all in, in, uh, tension with meritocracy.

    29. YPYeonmi Park1:15:27

        Yeah.

    30. LFLex Fridman1:15:27

        So, having a variety of people, b- backgrounds, way of thinking, all those kinds of things is a huge benefit to, to any, uh, group. But the way diversity is often defined is by sort of very crude classes-
18. 1:20:55 – 1:30:27

    Political correctness

    1. LFLex Fridman1:20:55

    2. YPYeonmi Park1:20:55

       Mm-hmm.

    3. LFLex Fridman1:20:55

       When you talked to Jordan Peterson recently and people should listen to that conversation, it was a fascinating one, I think, um, he, he, he almost got, uh, emotional-

    4. YPYeonmi Park1:21:07

       Yeah.

    5. LFLex Fridman1:21:07

       ... on the discussion about universities and your experience with Columbia because he, like myself, for perhaps different reasons, have a hope for our academic institutions. Some of the most incredible people, some of the most incredible engineering and i- idea development, innovation happens in universities. And so we both deeply care about them. Um, is there something... (laughs) So, the reason he got emotional, the reason he was kind of hurt is the, the fact that you did not, you were not deeply inspired by your experience in Columbia.

    6. YPYeonmi Park1:21:45

       It's not even deeply. It made me dumber.

    7. LFLex Fridman1:21:48

       It made you du-

    8. YPYeonmi Park1:21:48

       It made me scared, it made me terrified that I had to censor myself in America. Like, like are you seriously telling me that you don't ever censor yourself and when you talk, do you, can you truly say whatever you want about race, about anything, gender? We all censor ourselves. Let's be honest, right?

    9. LFLex Fridman1:22:09

       Yeah.

    10. YPYeonmi Park1:22:10

        We are all doing that. And that's what I learned, like I thought I was coming to a country where never need to say, like first thing my mom taught me growing up in North Korea was, "Don't even whisper because the birds and mice could hear you." And I thought, okay, now America is, uh, truly the land of the free, home of the brave. You can say anything you want. And then you have freedom to ch- change your mind and evolve, right?

    11. LFLex Fridman1:22:37

        Mm-hmm.

    12. YPYeonmi Park1:22:37

        But the people now demand you to be the perfect version they demand you to be.

    13. LFLex Fridman1:22:41

        Mm-hmm.

    14. YPYeonmi Park1:22:41

        You cannot change your mind. And then what is the meaning of life if you cannot grow?

    15. LFLex Fridman1:22:46

        Mm-hmm.

    16. YPYeonmi Park1:22:47

        Right? You should be f- feel safe to talk about anything and then later, "Okay, I was wrong."

    17. LFLex Fridman1:22:51

        Mm-hmm.

    18. YPYeonmi Park1:22:51

        But now if you do that you got to like get penalized for it.

    19. LFLex Fridman1:22:55

        I mean, censorship is a funny thing 'cause you probably should not say dumb things. (laughs)

    20. YPYeonmi Park1:23:00

        Yeah.

    21. LFLex Fridman1:23:00

        You should try to say things you want to say in the most eloquent, the most effective way you can.

    22. YPYeonmi Park1:23:05

        Mm-hmm.

    23. LFLex Fridman1:23:06

        So, I mean, that's what editing is, right?

    24. YPYeonmi Park1:23:07

        Yeah.

    25. LFLex Fridman1:23:08

        So there's some level of like being careful with what you say, not because you're afraid...

    26. YPYeonmi Park1:23:15

        Mm-hmm.

    27. LFLex Fridman1:23:15

        ... of some overarching kind of group of bullies, but you want to be the best version of you, of yourself when you express stuff. But there's some sense where in the university setting-

    28. YPYeonmi Park1:23:24

        Mm-hmm.

    29. LFLex Fridman1:23:25

        ... you can put that self-censorship like level down more-

    30. YPYeonmi Park1:23:29

        Yeah.

Episode duration: 2:00:48