Zach Bitter: Ultramarathon Running | Lex Fridman Podcast #205

1. 0:00 – 1:58

   Introduction

   1. LFLex Fridman0:00

      The following is a conversation with Zach Bitter, ultra-marathon runner and coach who held multiple world records in the 100-mile run and other ultra-endurance events. He is currently training for a run across America, which for now is planned for September this year. Like many of the things Zach has done in the past, this is a big, fascinating challenge. Quick mention of our sponsors: Ladder, Belcampo, Noom, and BetterHelp. Check them out in the description to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say that Zach has been advising and coaching me on my own running journey. I wanna mention that Zach sent me some running shoes from ALTRA, which I think is a company that sponsors him. When I put those shoes on, I feel like Zach is watching me and I get that extra motivation to make him proud. And by that, I mean I wanna put a lot of miles on those shoes. Running is something that has always been difficult for me, but I love it because it is difficult. The hardest part is I'm left alone with my thoughts for one or two hours. Some thoughts are dark, like thinking about mortality, my own and that of others. Some are self-critical, like personal weaknesses or dreams not realized. Some are simply human feelings of loneliness, personal and existential. And yet, they're the moments during a run when all that fades and I'm left empty of negative thoughts, full of appreciation for the beauty of experience, of nature, life, the whole thing. This is why I returned to running, not to get in shape, but to face myself and to run through it. That's why I'm inspired by people like Zach and by David Goggins and others like them who seek to find the limits of their body and mind. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast, and here is my conversation with Zach Bitter.

2. 1:58 – 9:07

   The marathon mentality

   1. LFLex Fridman1:58

      Where does your mind go when you're running an ultra-marathon? Are there a lot of positive thoughts, negative thoughts, demons, inspirational things? Maybe no thoughts at all.

   2. ZBZach Bitter2:08

      Yeah, that's the really interesting part of the sport, I think, 'cause you can... Essentially what it is, when we're looking at like the 100-mile distance or anything that's like all day long, is you're gonna have the full range or the full spectrum of emotions, of mental processes, both kind of positive, negative, and in between. So it almost feels like you've lived multiple, multiple lives, or a- or a full life maybe is the best way to say it, in that one time period. So it's like a- it's almost like a simulation of what you may experience in a long period of time in a very condensed period of time. And I think that's just a weird mental process to reflect upon, and that's what kinda draws people back to it. But, I mean, it's a battle too, because if you're looking at it from a performance standpoint versus an experience, you obviously wanna minimize the negative mindset stuff. You wanna try to keep those emotions and those thought processes at a low, and I think when you can keep yourself from letting those thoughts creep in, they- you- you end up having better races. And it's- it can spiral in either direction, like I notice, like there's- there's kind of like this scenario that occurs where in the beginning, like a negative thing creeps into your mind, it's like super easy just to slap it down and say-

   3. LFLex Fridman3:19

      Mm-hmm.

   4. ZBZach Bitter3:19

      ... like get out of here, uh, you know, I've did the training, I'm fit, I'm feeling fresh still, you know, everything's going well at this point in time. And you get a little further along in the race, and you're starting to feel a bit of the fatigue and maybe a little bit of self-doubt creeps in. You start asking yourself, "Well, you know, maybe I should have done one more long run," or, "Did I- did I not quite taper long enough?" And those things can kind of spiral into a negative way, and if- if you let it keep going, it keeps going all the way to like, "Why am I here? Why am I doing this? This is stupid." (laughs)

   5. LFLex Fridman3:51

      (laughs) Yeah.

   6. ZBZach Bitter3:51

      All the way to like, "There's another one of these two weeks from now, I'm gonna drop out of this one (laughs) and sign up for that one instead," and then you just find yourself in the exact same situation. So you kind of have to go through the process, I think. Uh, it's why I think the- there's kind of a, I won't say it's a rule of thumb necessarily, but something I think is fairly valuable is if you do 100-miler the first time, make sure you get it done even if it means like, you know, death marching is what they'll call it in the ultra-running community-

   7. LFLex Fridman4:19

      (laughs)

   8. ZBZach Bitter4:19

      ... at the end of the race. Just to say like you got that full experience, you experienced the highs, the lows, the full thing, the starting, the crossing the finish line, that release of emotion when you're done and all that stuff, uh, so that when you go back to do it again, you have like a template to build off of and you know- or- or you just have some data to pull from about how your mind's gonna work as well as your body so that you can start practicing, "Well, what do I have to do to kind of keep my mind from spiraling in a negative direction?" Or, "How do I catch some positive momentum and kind of keep sending it that way?" And things like that, and that- that just, I think, you- you just add to that over a career of running them or a series of running them and it wo- it's- it sharpens. It's kind of like any sport with that where, you know, you always have this balance between the youthfulness that you may have earlier in your career versus the, uh, the wise intelligence that you have maybe near the end of your career.

   9. LFLex Fridman5:09

      So in terms of wisdom, is there mechanisms by which you kind of observe the negative thoughts and let them go? So you have, uh, people like the David Gogginses who kind of, they- he seems to almost like separate his mind into there's the weak David that he hates and then there's the stro- strong (laughs) one.

   10. ZBZach Bitter5:32

       (laughs) .

   11. LFLex Fridman5:32

       I mean, there's like a very contentious relationship there. Uh, so he basically says like, "I- I refuse to be that person." And he's almost like angry at that person. He's almost like sometimes literally yelling at that person, the weak version of themselves. And then there's another more sort of Sam Harris-y approach, (laughs) which is like just observe the thought and let it go, maybe knowing that this too shall pass. Like, no matter what, it- this moment will not last forever and kind of sort of accepting the natural flow of things and taking one step at a time and allowing...... whatever the negativity, whatever the pain you're experiencing just to pass-

   12. ZBZach Bitter6:11

       Mm-hmm.

   13. LFLex Fridman6:11

       ... even if it means a death march.

   14. ZBZach Bitter6:14

       Yeah.

   15. LFLex Fridman6:14

       Which one's more effective for you? Which one, like, would you say, generally speaking, to the population is more effective?

   16. ZBZach Bitter6:20

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a really good question. It, it, it's probably unique to the individual. I wouldn't argue that, you know, David is finding success with his approach. (laughs)

   17. LFLex Fridman6:30

       (laughs)

   18. ZBZach Bitter6:31

       Some may argue it's an extreme version. Uh, you know, Sam has obviously thought about these things and, and, uh, really probably, you know, I see those guys as kind of two ends of the spectrum in just the way that they kinda come across in general, where like, David's like really at you, a kind of high energy, and Sam's kind of this calming, soft presence, and he's just gonna slowly, methodically lay it all out there.

   19. LFLex Fridman6:54

       Mm-hmm.

   20. ZBZach Bitter6:54

       And I think there's value on, in both of those. I think most people are probably gonna get a benefit from pulling some from each. I mean, there's times where, where I (laughs) need a kick in the ass, and then it's like have the strong Zach tell the weak Zach to get moving. But there's also times where, you know, it's just like, you know, a subtle voice entering my head about, you know, "I don't know if I feel quite right now. Should I maybe pull back on the pace?"

   21. LFLex Fridman7:20

       Mm-hmm.

   22. ZBZach Bitter7:20

       And I think that little subtle voice is best approached with a subtle positive voice, where it's more like, "Okay, well, let's think this through here for a second. You're 40 miles into a 100-mile race. You spent four months preparing for it. Uh, you know from the workouts you did that you're ready for this. There really isn't any real reason for you to slow down or to fall off your goal, or your pace, or, you know, reassess what you're doing. Let's just give this another mile or two, and then we can reassess if we need to in, in order to kind of figure out if I'm doing the right things or not." And I think, like, in that situation, um, you definitely probably wanna lean more towards the Sam Harris approach with that-

   23. LFLex Fridman8:01

       Yeah.

   24. ZBZach Bitter8:01

       ... because there's really no reason to... It's almost like the same thing you see with like just training and even nutrition to a degree, where like some folks, they just wanna be like, kinda like drilled. They wanna be like yelled at and said, like, "Get going. Get doing this." And that helps them, that motivates them. That helps them stay accountable. Other people need some softer love with it, where it's like, "You know, this isn't necessarily your tho- your, your fault. You were put in this environment that kind of created an atmosphere of lethargy and maybe poor nutritional choices (laughs) and things like that, and, and like so f- but it's, it's correctable. So, we need to, we need to step away from that, and we need to kinda start heading in the direction that we know is gonna bear fruit down the road." And that person may respond better to that. So, I think both those guys have great value with their approaches. They're just probably polar ends of the, uh, of the spectrum. And I think most people are probably gonna benefit... Like anything, right? You get the polarizing ones, and those are gonna work great for the polarizing people, but then most people are gonna fit somewhere in the middle. So, they're probably gonna be able to kinda pull from both of those if they're able to sit down and kind of like assess which one's gonna work better in which situation.

3. 9:07 – 20:13

   The psychology of quitting

   1. ZBZach Bitter9:07

   2. LFLex Fridman9:07

      So, the quitting thing that you mentioned, the, like, the final stage, which actually I get to much quicker than you seem to-

   3. ZBZach Bitter9:14

      (laughs)

   4. LFLex Fridman9:14

      ... which is like, "Why am I doing this?" I get there with basically anything I do.

   5. ZBZach Bitter9:19

      Mm-hmm.

   6. LFLex Fridman9:20

      It's like wh- (laughs) this is, uh, this is probably the stupidest thing I've ever done, is the feeling I get often. And then immediately, you have these excuses that are like, "There's all these other better things you should be doing."

   7. ZBZach Bitter9:31

      Mm-hmm.

   8. LFLex Fridman9:33

      Or, uh, or the other alternative that, like you said, "I'm not prepared enough for this moment. I'll be much more prepared in two weeks for the next event, so like, why... L- let's try this again. Let's start over."

   9. ZBZach Bitter9:45

      Mm-hmm.

   10. LFLex Fridman9:45

       "Let's start over in two weeks." How do you deal with that quit? Uh, like, uh, so, uh, maybe do you still go through that process, and, uh, by way of advice for people that are more sort of amateurish like me, uh, how to deal with that quitting voice?

   11. ZBZach Bitter10:03

       I think a lot of times when the quitting voice kinda comes in, it... What it does is it kinda just n- It, it comes in with the added disadvantage, I guess, in this situation, of being kind of a narrow-scoped view, where you're looking at like, uh, what it's doing to you in the moment, or how you're feeling in the moment, versus how are you feeling about the whole process.

   12. LFLex Fridman10:26

       Yeah.

   13. ZBZach Bitter10:26

       So, one thing that I started doing in 2019, and I think, I don't think it's necessarily, uh... I think, I think, I think this was a big reason why I had one of my best racing seasons in 2019 that I'd had to that date. Uh, it was part of it was I started, I think, putting a little more emphasis on the big picture, versus putting emphasis on like, this is one opportunity or one day of work. Uh, and this is one, one emotional kind of flare up, but how does that actually relate to my general broader picture? So, when I decide to do a race or an event or something like that, it's often for six months out ahead of time. You're planning to like kinda do a series of workouts in a, uh, a flow of things where you're going through the process of getting fit, getting ready, preparing for the specifics of the day, and all that stuff. And then you get to the race itself or the event itself, and it's very easy to look at that and think that's an isolation. Like, "I'm gonna run 12 hours today," or, "I'm gonna run 100 miles today," or whatever it ends up being. And it's a lot easier to quit when you think to yourself, "I'm 40 miles into a 100-mile race. You know, that's just a 40-mile run," which sounds kinda silly (laughs) I think to most people.

   14. LFLex Fridman11:41

       Yeah.

   15. ZBZach Bitter11:42

       But, but in perspective, I mean, when we're talking about the ultra-marathon running community, you know, it's a lot easier just to say, "Well, you know, I'll scrap this 40 miles and try again." It's a lot harder to say, "I'm gonna scrap the entire last four months, the entire reason why I was doing it, the countless hours I spent in there." So, I think I just try to reposition it of like, "I'm in a bad place right now maybe in my head, or I'm at, I'm hitting a low point here, but I'm 99% of the way towards the goal I set out four months ago when I add in all the work I did leading up to that." So, I think it's important.... to ask yourself why. Because I mean, there are times when you're doing something and you ask yourself why, and you don't have a good reason. And then maybe it is advantageous to step back and s- and really reflect on that and decide, "Is this something I actually wanna invest time and energy into?" 'Cause-

   16. LFLex Fridman12:30

       Yeah.

   17. ZBZach Bitter12:30

       ... you know, someone like yourself who is very much into a variety of different things, it can be easy probably to overextend and get cu- I mean, I'm a very curious person, so there's like 100 things I would love to do if I wasn't doing what I'm doing.

   18. LFLex Fridman12:45

       Yeah.

   19. ZBZach Bitter12:45

       And I know I'd enjoy all of them. So, it... At a certain point though you have to say, "Okay, which one is gonna be the most meaningful for me?" And if the answer keeps coming back to saying like, "Yes, this is still the most meaningful to me out of that 100 things that I could otherwise be doing," then, then I know that I'm in the, in it for the right reason. Then I just need to identify some of the things, like, "Well, why did this one take the top spot out of the 100 things that I could have picked from?" And keeping like a list of those in your head so that when you get to that point where you start saying, "Why am I doing this? Why am I here?" You just have those kind of ready-loaded in your head to say, "Well, I already took inventory on that before I started this and I knew this voice was gonna come at some point, whether it's early, middle, or late." And, and then you just remind yourself kind of what you were thinking when you had a little more of a level head.

   20. LFLex Fridman13:30

       Well, there's something about the thing you mentioned when you mentioned the death march. It seems extremely valuable to just never quitting. Like in the moment, if you decide to do something, n- like never quitting, even if it- you do go through the process and realize that it's not, uh, it's not the wisest thing to be doing within the full context of your life. Like once you decide to do it, it seems like never quitting prevents you from-

   21. ZBZach Bitter13:58

       Mm-hmm.

   22. LFLex Fridman13:59

       ... sort of having that escape clause from other things in your life.

   23. ZBZach Bitter14:03

       Mm-hmm.

   24. LFLex Fridman14:04

       So I've, I've quit on a few things in my life and I think I still... I deeply regret that because it opened that door. (laughs) It's almost like a muscle.

   25. ZBZach Bitter14:14

       Yeah.

   26. LFLex Fridman14:14

       I don't know. So I, I... I think I'm... I don't know, maybe everyone is, but I, I think I'm kind of a quitter.

   27. ZBZach Bitter14:21

       (laughs)

   28. LFLex Fridman14:21

       You know what I mean? Like, um, like I'm really good at coming up with reasons to quit.

   29. ZBZach Bitter14:28

       Mm-hmm.

   30. LFLex Fridman14:28

       My mind is really good at that. And I, I... It feels like I have to come up with, uh, like really work hard to make sure that there's no quit. Uh, that I never allow myself to quit, no matter how stupid the thing I'm doing is. I don't know if that, any of that makes sense, but it just... M- maybe to rephrase this whole thing, do you think it's good to live life by the ethos of "never quit?"
4. 20:13 – 27:29

   Variety in ultramarathons

   1. ZBZach Bitter20:13

   2. LFLex Fridman20:13

      But life is short, Zach.

   3. ZBZach Bitter20:14

      (laughs)

   4. LFLex Fridman20:15

      Like, why... I mean, this is the problem I have. This is probably the programming thing too, is over-optimization is dangerous.

   5. ZBZach Bitter20:22

      Mm.

   6. LFLex Fridman20:23

      Uh, it's like every once in a while... I mean, you're... (laughs) You do this kind of stuff. You're not, for example, with 100-mile run, you're, I mean, you could just be doing that for the rest of your life and do, like, the most optimal 100-mile run ever. But you keep taking on, like, new challenges.

   7. ZBZach Bitter20:39

      Mm.

   8. LFLex Fridman20:39

      And there's a lot more chaos in that. And there, it feels like the muscle of never quit will be much more important than the optimality of your training.

   9. ZBZach Bitter20:47

      Yeah, so there's probably a couple sides to me with that kind of a thing where, for one, I think when we talked about the why, so, like, I think the why can kind of shift a bit, and it probably will if you do something long enough, or evolve maybe is a better way to call, to put it. And for me, like, one of my big drives and one of my big passions within ultra running is to first of all find an event that I really, really love to train for and participate in. So for me, I feel like I've kind of identified that to a degree, and that's kind of runnable 100-milers. So, once I found that, it became more of a driver for me to see, like, well, how fast can I run 100 miles in a very controlled environment? So let's eliminate weather, let's eliminate, you know, elevation, let's eliminate, like, having to wait extra long to get crew or support and that sort of thing. And that's how you find yourself on a 400-meter track- (laughs)

   10. LFLex Fridman21:44

       Yeah.

   11. ZBZach Bitter21:44

       ... running 100 miles. But for me, like, the, the important part of that is that I can control the environment enough where if I come back year after year, I can retest myself and have a decent ability to kind of say I improved or I regressed or I stayed stagnant. And I think that's a big driver for me. Um, but one thing I've recognized within that is if you just keep doing that, like if I could probably pick three flat runnable 100-milers a year and optimally prepare, race, recover, and repeat w- without, like, burning myself out. But one thing I think I learned also in 2019 was (laughs) , uh, that sometimes you kind of need to step away from some of these really, really kind of important markers in your, like, your performance or in whatever you're trying to do and take a step away from it and try, do something a little different, uh, in order to kind of hit the reset button on just like what I would call just like your mental energy to be able to continue to do it at a high level.

   12. LFLex Fridman22:45

       Got you.

   13. ZBZach Bitter22:46

       So-

   14. LFLex Fridman22:46

       Almost like happiness. (laughs)

   15. ZBZach Bitter22:47

       Exactly. Well, and here's the example. Like, I mean, I love running in trails too. Most people would consider me a flat road track runner, runnable ultra runner. Um, but I like to do trail runs too. So in... At the end of 2018, I recognized that I had been kind of pushing the gas pedal on trying to run fast 100-milers for quite a while without really a break in that where it was like, "Okay, I did one. Now I'm gonna, you know, take a brief off season, but then I'm gonna ultimately build up and peak for another one." I might introduce some fun trail races in the context, but they're gonna be B races, they're gonna be training races, time on feet type of stuff that are gonna kind of mimic like a long run essentially. And the... But the main focus, the... always in the back of my mind was like getting on the track and seeing how much faster I can run 100 miles. And that just kind of... that energy that it takes to continually think about that, that... I think the motivation to keep that sto- high enough to really meet your full potential fades if you don't step away from it for a little bit. So, I took essentially half a year away from runnable stuff and just decided I'm gonna prepare for the San Diego 100 Mile, which is like a much more elevation, uh, technical trail type of an event, and-

   16. LFLex Fridman23:58

       Is that a trail run or no?

   17. ZBZach Bitter23:59

       Yeah.

   18. LFLex Fridman23:59

       Mm-hmm.

   19. ZBZach Bitter24:00

       It's a trail 100-miler, uh, actually just kind of just outside of, uh, uh, San Diego. And yeah, it goes through... it goes over part of the Pacific Crest Trail and stuff. So it's, it's very different than running (laughs) on a runnable surface. So, to give you some context, like I ran, what was it? I think just under 17 hours for that race, whereas on a flat surface I can run 11 hours and 19 minutes. So just-

   20. LFLex Fridman24:21

       Wow.

   21. ZBZach Bitter24:21

       ... the environment alone added an extra, you know, five-plus hours to the day. So, um, it's just a different experience, different skill set. And what it did is it allowed me to kind of step away from kind of focusing on, like, splits on a track...... uh, running flat stuff, like preparing for things specifically for a flat environment, and start training for something that's more climbing and descending, more technical running skillsets and things like that. And the cool part about it was, uh, first of all, you know, when you step away from something and enter something a lot different, I mean, it's still running. There's still a, a huge advantage I had from the running I'd done in the past that was gonna put me in a good position to be successful.

   22. LFLex Fridman25:02

       Mm-hmm.

   23. ZBZach Bitter25:02

       But there was a much higher, uh, or a much bigger range of potential improvement for me. So through the like, you know, four-plus months I spent preparing for that race, you know, I noticed, "Oh, wow, I'm getting faster on this climb."

   24. LFLex Fridman25:16

       Mm-hmm.

   25. ZBZach Bitter25:16

       Or, "I'm getting better at descending this technical trail." It was one of the most fun races I've run actually, so it was kind of a cool experience. I ended up, uh, taking the lead at like 93 miles, so-

   26. LFLex Fridman25:26

       So you were racing-racing, like, you were trying to get first?

   27. ZBZach Bitter25:28

       Mm-hmm.

   28. LFLex Fridman25:28

       So still a race?

   29. ZBZach Bitter25:30

       Yeah, uh-huh. Yeah.

   30. LFLex Fridman25:30

       So what was the enjoyable aspect of it?
5. 27:29 – 32:52

   What does it take to run 100 miles?

   1. ZBZach Bitter27:29

   2. LFLex Fridman27:29

      So you mentioned the track. You've also ran a hundred miles on the treadmill and the, the trail hundred mile. Broadly, if we zoom out, what does it take to run a hundred miles? For, for most of the world-

   3. ZBZach Bitter27:43

      (laughs)

   4. LFLex Fridman27:43

      ... that seems like a crazy distance to run. So maybe it's interesting to ask, not only as you're setting the world record, but purely running, what does it take to run that far?

   5. ZBZach Bitter27:55

      Yeah, I mean, I think people probably overestimate what it takes in terms of just getting it done. I think this is consistent in just running in general. I think the marathon was always a big one with that where people thought like, "Well, you have to do this training or you just literally won't physically be able to complete a marathon." And then we got into an era of kind of like running as more of an enjoyment thing versus a performance thing, and then you'd have people running g- granted much slower. I think if you look at the Boston Marathon average finishing times, it g- goes from like... Or maybe it wasn't the Boston Marathon, it might've just been marathons in general, went from like three hours to five hours or something like that.

   6. LFLex Fridman28:31

      (laughs)

   7. ZBZach Bitter28:31

      So it's like people I think got past the fact that you can only do it if you're optimally prepared to, "Well, I can do it and maybe not meet my full potential if I'm gonna like not do much training," which I wouldn't necessarily advise, but, uh, I mean, I've, I've talked to people who've basically run a hundred miles sometimes almost off the couch-

   8. LFLex Fridman28:49

      Mm-hmm.

   9. ZBZach Bitter28:49

      ... and it's like, it's i- it, to me what that says is just the human body's incredible in what it can tolerate above and beyond what it's been exposed to if it has to or if it feels like it has to.

   10. LFLex Fridman28:58

       So that's the basic sort of getting from point A from the start to the finish.

   11. ZBZach Bitter29:03

       Mm-hmm.

   12. LFLex Fridman29:03

       It's the human body and the human mind is capable of doing it without much preparation.

   13. ZBZach Bitter29:08

       Mm-hmm.

   14. LFLex Fridman29:08

       But then you start to, uh, increase the, the goal of performance-

   15. ZBZach Bitter29:12

       Mm-hmm.

   16. LFLex Fridman29:12

       ... and you try to get, uh, actually a good, like, the most outta your body that you can. W- how does that start to change then?

   17. ZBZach Bitter29:19

       Yeah.

   18. LFLex Fridman29:19

       That's going from fun to performance.

   19. ZBZach Bitter29:22

       Yeah. I think, uh, once you start putting marks or goals on outside of just finishing, that's where it starts getting interesting 'cause now you could maybe go in with multiple goals where like if one falls off due to something that you didn't expect, then you have another one to target, but you can always build those up and try to think like, "Well, I wanna run faster than last time," or, "I wanna, you know, break a course record or an age group record," or something like that. And that, that I think is just gonna be a little bit of a different mindset 'cause now you're looking at every little thing from "What do I need to do to prepare?" as well as "What do I need to do to be efficient on the day itself?" So like transitioning aid stations and things like that, or, uh, "Do I want a pacer or not?" Or, "Does this race allow someone to, like, hand me a bottle at a certain spot or do I have to be in specific areas to get that type of stuff?" And, and, and what it ends up doing is it ends up bringing a lot more variables to the table. And I think it's, it's interesting because there's always gonna be more variables on the day, uh, than you are able to account for, so at a certain degree you have to kind of find yourself in a position where I'm gonna make sure I take care of the big ones or the ones that are like obviously I need to be ready for like-

   20. LFLex Fridman30:31

       Mm-hmm.

   21. ZBZach Bitter30:31

       ... my fueling strategy, my hydration strategy, my pacing strategy. You know, what workouts are gonna put me in a position to physiologically-... have this process go as well as possible? How am I gonna like, you know, hold myself accountable in the aid station transition so I'm not like having a ton of non-moving time, uh, versus moving time and things like that.

   22. LFLex Fridman30:50

       This is so cool. So there's these like big variables that you're aware of and you're trying to-

   23. ZBZach Bitter30:54

       Mm-hmm.

   24. LFLex Fridman30:54

       ... optimize over the space of variables.

   25. ZBZach Bitter30:56

       Yep.

   26. LFLex Fridman30:56

       So, so you get to start to play with that-

   27. ZBZach Bitter30:58

       Mm-hmm.

   28. LFLex Fridman30:58

       ... when you're looking for performance.

   29. ZBZach Bitter31:00

       It's almost like moving from checkers to chess. Right?

   30. LFLex Fridman31:02

       Yeah.
6. 32:52 – 36:33

   Leading ultramarathon events

   1. LFLex Fridman32:52

      there's a huge range of different kinds of ultra marathon events.

   2. ZBZach Bitter32:55

      Mm-hmm.

   3. LFLex Fridman32:55

      What are like the big ones in your mind? So marathon, we know the distance for a marathon. There's the 50K. What are different kinds-

   4. ZBZach Bitter33:04

      Mm-hmm.

   5. LFLex Fridman33:04

      There's the 100 mile, that in your mind like kinda these islands where, where people gather often?

   6. ZBZach Bitter33:10

      Yep. Yeah. So there's a few that really stand out. I would say the three biggest ultra marathons right now, even from a histo- uh, maybe not necessarily a historical standpoint but, uh, in- in modern day ultra running is gonna be the Western States 100. Uh, that's the biggest, most competitive 100 miler, it's on the trail side of things, uh, in the United States. Then there's Ultra-Trail Mont Blanc, which is probably the most competitive 100 miler on the planet right now. In previous years it's been debatable as to whether Western States or Ultra-Trail Mont Blanc's more competitive. I think in the most recent few years you're just seeing a lot more like of the bulk of international talent on the trail side of the sport heading over that way. And then you have the road running side of things where the Comrades Marathon, which is technically 56 miles but they call it the Comrades Marathon, uh, is gonna generally be the most competitive ultra marathon. The, the weird thing is the distance thing, right? 'Cause most people, when they think of endurance sports, they're thinking about s- precise distances-

   7. LFLex Fridman34:05

      Mm-hmm.

   8. ZBZach Bitter34:05

      ... like five kilometers, 10 kilometers, and all that stuff and then, then you get (laughs) into the ultra running world and it's like sometimes it's the event. So like the Western States-

   9. LFLex Fridman34:12

      The course itself is much more important than the distance.

   10. ZBZach Bitter34:14

       Right. Yeah. So the Western States 100 is actually 100.2 miles, which isn't that big of a deviation when you think about it, especially when you figure like tangents are gonna probably account for more than 0.2 miles on a 100-mile race. But the Ultra-Trail Mont Blanc, you know, that's listed as 100 miler but it's actually I think like 104, 105 miles. So, you know, it's more, it, there's different cultures too. So the United States is definitely more motivated, I think, to try to get as close to the exact distance. You're gonna hear maybe a little more grumbling if someone says, "I signed up for this 100 miler and it turned out to be 103 miles."

   11. LFLex Fridman34:45

       Yeah.

   12. ZBZach Bitter34:45

       Uh, versus like over in Europe they don't really care too much about the distance. They're more interested in like a specific route or a loop.

   13. LFLex Fridman34:52

       Is consistency important in terms of the exact length of the, uh, of the route so like you can compare performances from previous years? Or are they a little bit more flexible, like they redefine the trail from year to year?

   14. ZBZach Bitter35:03

       Yeah, I mean, it's definitely hard to compare. I mean, there's events that... Um, take for example, um, I would say the best ultra marathoner in the world today on the men's side is Jim Walmsley. Uh, the reason I think Jim Walmsley's the best is because he is the most versatile and not only (laughs) the most versatile but he's arguably the best at almost everything up to 100 miles. So, there's a race called the Angeles Crest 100 Miler. They, the, the trail has drastically changed from when they originally had that event and it's a different time of year so it's much warmer on that course. And Jim's not the kinda guy who (laughs) would, uh, sit back and say like, "I can't chase that record." But I think Angeles Crest when he looks at the segments and the pacing for that one, he's like, "That one is maybe not even the same event anymore."

   15. LFLex Fridman35:50

       Mm-hmm.

   16. ZBZach Bitter35:50

       So you have that. You have some that are a little more controlled and a little more kind of like preserved I guess you would say, but I think it gets really rare on the trail side. I mean, Comrades is gonna be very comparable from one year to the next 'cause that's a road race. And that's where you get, you maybe get like the split in the sport from people who really want that kind of like, "I wanna compare myself to someone who ran this course in 1970."

   17. LFLex Fridman36:11

       Yeah.

   18. ZBZach Bitter36:12

       Versus like someone who just says, "I wanna be competitive today and, you know, maybe the weather is gonna be 30 degrees different from one year to the next on this course but if I beat everyone on this day then I'm the champion of that big named race like Ultra-Trail Mont Blanc or Western States 100 and my legacy will be cemented because I won that big race and it doesn't matter when or how the course was or what the time even

7. 36:33 – 39:03

   Training and race strategy

   1. ZBZach Bitter36:33

      was to some degree."

   2. LFLex Fridman36:33

      When you were optimizing for trying to set the world record in the 100 miler, were you doing like analysis of-... maybe like, what, what were the variables you were looking at? Is it more in the realm of the actual race day, the track, what it looks like, versus like, the variables of the training leading up to the, to the race?

   3. ZBZach Bitter36:58

      I mean, it evolved a bit. Like, I think the ... as I learned more about just like what is required to kind of really do that stuff. So, there are some variables you can control for, uh, you know, I try to control for as many as I can. The big one that kind of stands out that you can't necessarily control for is, it's pretty rare where you get an event where they're just doing 100 miles on a track. It's usually like, uh, like an event of like a series of different events where there might be like some people out there doing 50K, some people out there doing 24, some doing ... (laughs) . Like, the event I did at, there was six-day folks out there. They're trying to see how far they could get in six days. So you have like this much wider range of pacing, just due to like the distance. So, you know, track protocol is always like, you pass on the outside.

   4. LFLex Fridman37:41

      Mm-hmm.

   5. ZBZach Bitter37:41

      So, if you're running one of the faster paces of the day, um, which when you're going up to six days, you're gonna ... and you're doing 100 miles-

   6. LFLex Fridman37:49

      Mm-hmm.

   7. ZBZach Bitter37:49

      ... you're probably gonna be running faster than most people out there. Then, you know, you just end up running more, because you end up running in lane two around the turns, then sometimes lane three around the turns.

   8. LFLex Fridman37:57

      Wow, so it's down to those little details-

   9. ZBZach Bitter37:59

      Mm-hmm.

   10. LFLex Fridman37:59

       ... that have a big impact.

   11. ZBZach Bitter38:00

       Yep. So I had to build that into my pacing strategy. I also have to build into the pacing strategy, like relative non-moving time.

   12. LFLex Fridman38:06

       Wow.

   13. ZBZach Bitter38:06

       Uh, you know, I did a race just recently, uh, it was the US Track and Field 100 Mile Road Championships, and I did not stop once other than like ... I guess I technically stopped like in the aid station for like a few seconds to like grab bottles and get myself wet, 'cause it was like 94 degrees that day. But I didn't like stop at all during that race from like what I would say is like a long period of time, where we're getting up to like a minute. But that's pretty rare, even on the track. Like, when I ran 11 hours and 19 minutes, uh, I think I stopped three times for maybe a total of like, I believe ... I'd have to look back for sure, but I think it was like three to four minutes or something like that.

   14. LFLex Fridman38:42

       Mm-hmm.

   15. ZBZach Bitter38:42

       So you gotta, you gotta figure that into your pacing strategy, especially if you're chasing a specific time. 'Cause you know, if I'm pacing for ... you know, at the time, the world record was 11:28, um, so if I'm pacing for, say, 11:27:30 or something like that-

   16. LFLex Fridman38:56

       Mm-hmm.

   17. ZBZach Bitter38:57

       ... and I don't account for that three minutes of stoppage, then I might run the exact pace I had planned on, but then I'm a minute off of

8. 39:03 – 43:05

   100 Mile world record

   1. ZBZach Bitter39:03

      the world record.

   2. LFLex Fridman39:03

      Yeah.

   3. ZBZach Bitter39:03

      So ...

   4. LFLex Fridman39:04

      Uh, 11:28, we're talking about 11 hours, we're talking about 100 miles. Can you mention what the world record was, what, uh, what kind of world record you set? Can you tell your own story here of, uh, of what you were able to accomplish?

   5. ZBZach Bitter39:18

      That world record that I broke actually just recently got re-broke-

   6. LFLex Fridman39:20

      (laughs)

   7. ZBZach Bitter39:21

      ... um, by a guy, um, over in Lithuania, uh, Alex, uh, Sorkine. Um, phenomenal race. I mean, he's, he's won the 24 Hour World Championships, he's won the Spartathlon, which is another big historic ultra-marathon race. It's 153 miles, so it's getting a little more lengthy than some of the stuff that I've traditionally done. Um, he ran 11:14, I believe it was '56 or '57. Um, so his pace was 6:45 per mile, mine was 6:47 and a half, in terms of just like the pacing strategy. And it, it's, it's just really cool, because for me, the motivation with chasing the world record was, it was multifaceted. I think there was ... as I kind of moved through, 'cause I mean, it took me almost six years from the day I decided I wanted to chase that time to the day (laughs) I actually did it. Uh, and through that five to six years, I think I merged from just like my m- number one goal was to try to break the world record to my number one goal is, how fast can I run this thing? And then ultimately, um, what needs to be done for a human to break 11 hours in 100 miles? 'Cause I think that's gonna be, I think that's gonna happen-

   8. LFLex Fridman40:26

      Wow.

   9. ZBZach Bitter40:27

      ... soon.

   10. LFLex Fridman40:28

       Yeah.

   11. ZBZach Bitter40:28

       I think it's gonna happen in the next few years.

   12. LFLex Fridman40:29

       W- what pace would that be?

   13. ZBZach Bitter40:31

       Um, sub 11 would be, I think like, I think it's like 6:35, right about, per mile. You're moving quick, but not so quick that like you're, you're, you know, void of being able to think about everything as it's happening. (laughs)

   14. LFLex Fridman40:44

       So what's the pace in terms of if you look for each of the one-mile segments for the 100 miles, is it pretty steady, six ... like, in order to break 11 hours-

   15. ZBZach Bitter40:55

       Mm-hmm.

   16. LFLex Fridman40:56

       ... would it be pretty steady, 6:35? Does it go up and down?

   17. ZBZach Bitter41:00

       Mm-hmm.

   18. LFLex Fridman41:00

       Do you speed up at the very end? Like, what's, what's the pacing? If you were to ... and maybe how much variability is there in the pacing-

   19. ZBZach Bitter41:07

       Mm-hmm, yep.

   20. LFLex Fridman41:07

       ... for an optimum performance here?

   21. ZBZach Bitter41:09

       Yeah, so if you're talking about someone, let's say that there is someone ... well, let's just take me, for example. Let's say that we could just like ... we had this infinite knowledge, and we knew for a fact a perfect performance from me would produce a 10:59, but I'm not going a second faster, and I need to do everything right in order to run a 10:59. Uh, I would definitely want to either have a slight negative or a slight positive split. So when, um ... and I think there's, I think there's a, there's a range in there, where like being a little bit faster the first half than the second half isn't gonna necessarily change your outcome, or being a little bit slower the first half and a little bit faster the second half isn't gonna drastically change your outcome.

   22. LFLex Fridman41:52

       So that's where you're referring to the split, is you're looking at the first 50 miles and the second 50 miles?

   23. ZBZach Bitter41:56

       Mm-hmm. And you can break it down as, as tiny as you want. Like, I think, uh, when you take out the outlier laps where I stop to use the bathroom, which would've been that like three to four minute non-moving time that I talked about before, my splits were really tight. Um, I had a couple that were, um ... it was weird, 'cause that, that track that I did that on was actually like 400 and ... it was some weird number, like 400 and like 38 meters or something like that. So, I actually like ran like my numbers based on that, so they're, they're ... normally, I'm dealing with 400 meters, and then it's a little more like clean as to like what my lap splits are gonna range from one event to the next.

   24. LFLex Fridman42:30

       So we're talking about running 100 miles on a track?

   25. ZBZach Bitter42:32

       Mm-hmm, yeah.

   26. LFLex Fridman42:34

       (sighs) And so then you can be really scientific about-

   27. ZBZach Bitter42:36

       Yes.

   28. LFLex Fridman42:36

       ... getting the s- the, the, the sp- the, um, the pacing right. And, uh, you're, you're running on the inside lane, or, uh, is there some kind of tricks to this? Like, are you alternating directions?

   29. ZBZach Bitter42:49

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, they'll switch directions in most events every four hours. So, you'll do four hours one way, and then they usually put a cone out, and once it hits like-... like, let's say it hits four hours. You finish the lap you're on and then you do a loop around and then you start the next, your next lap,

9. 43:05 – 45:54

   Foot strike variability and cadence

   1. ZBZach Bitter43:05

      uh-

   2. LFLex Fridman43:05

      Would you say you take the exact same number of steps? Like, wh- when you're really in the groove, when you're taking the pacing, are we talking about that level of precision or is it a little bit more feel?

   3. ZBZach Bitter43:16

      You mean like foot strike frequency or ...

   4. LFLex Fridman43:18

      Yeah, like frequency then over the distance of a lap.

   5. ZBZach Bitter43:22

      Oh.

   6. LFLex Fridman43:22

      Would you say it's so precise that you're like, you get in this groove where it's like perfect?

   7. ZBZach Bitter43:26

      Yeah. Gosh, I, you're making me wish I would have strapped more like a foot pod to my... (laughs)

   8. LFLex Fridman43:31

      (laughs)

   9. ZBZach Bitter43:31

      But like yeah, so I think like, my guess is it's pretty precise, like it's-

   10. LFLex Fridman43:34

       Is there a video of this? Sorry, I keep interrupting. Is there a video of this? 'Cause I, I've actually, this is now three years ago, built a computer vision algorithm that counts foot strikes.

   11. ZBZach Bitter43:45

       Oh, really?

   12. LFLex Fridman43:46

       Yeah, for fun. (laughs)

   13. ZBZach Bitter43:47

       Yeah. (laughs)

   14. LFLex Fridman43:49

       'Cause I was trying to understand, uh, we'll talk about this ...

   15. ZBZach Bitter43:51

       We, we have the same definition of fun when you, I've, I've got my, find myself on a track for, all day and you find yourself counting foot strikes. (laughs)

   16. LFLex Fridman43:58

       (laughs) I was trying to understand if, if there's, how much variability there is in, uh, extreme like, elite performers-

   17. ZBZach Bitter44:05

       Oh.

   18. LFLex Fridman44:06

       ... within a particular race, but also across races. It was just interesting to me from a robotics perspective if like, how much variability there is in the human body in, in the way they use legs to move quickly.

   19. ZBZach Bitter44:19

       Mm-hmm. I think my guess would be that at the individual level, it's gonna be pretty precise, assuming the pacing is consistent so you get s- ... So, my pacing on that day, I ran two minutes faster the second 50 miles than I did the first 50 miles, so my splits were very even most of the day. I actually ran some of my fastest miles at the end. Uh, so there's gonna be probably a slight variance, w- from my fastest mile to my slowest mile in like your cadence or your foot strike. Uh, but probably not by a huge margin, but you might have a pretty big variance from one person to the next. So-

   20. LFLex Fridman44:51

       Mm.

   21. ZBZach Bitter44:52

       ... you get someone whose gait is just a little bit different, so like for me, I supinate, which means I kinda come down on the outside of my foot and I'm kind of more of a mid forefoot striker. So that's gonna kind of impact my cadence to a degree, whereas you might have someone who is kind of more mid to rear their foot or heel striker and they might pronate, where their foot kind of rolls in. Uh, so that person may have a little bit of a different cadence as well. So you get someone... And I think you see this in elite marathoning too, which is gonna probably just be a much larger data pool, uh, much, much more probably precise from just like a number of opportunities to study this. And I think even their ranges from one person to the next can be, I wouldn't say drastic but, you know, to the degree of like 10 to maybe even 20 steps per minute or something like that from one person to the next. But most people, the faster they go, the higher their cadence is gonna be. The slower they go, the lower their cadence is gonna be. But there's gonna be probably a range of optimal lowness and I don't know what op- probably an optimal highness too-

   22. LFLex Fridman45:53

       Mm.

   23. ZBZach Bitter45:53

       ... than that.

10. 45:54 – 49:21

    The 11 hour barrier

    1. ZBZach Bitter45:54

    2. LFLex Fridman45:54

       If you can just linger on the 11 hours, the person... First of all, would you like to be a, the person that breaks 11 hours? And second of all, the person that does break 11 hours, like what would, what would it take? A- and third question is, is it even possible in your intu- (laughs)

    3. ZBZach Bitter46:10

       Yeah. (laughs)

    4. LFLex Fridman46:11

       ... intuition.

    5. ZBZach Bitter46:12

       I mean, I would def- I would be lying to you if I said I didn't want to be the first person to break 11 hours (laughs) in 100 miles. I think that'll be, um, would be a cool like barrier to be the one to usher that in. But with that said, I think I'm much more motivated in seeing it done from the sense that like, I think I s- when I, when I'm, when we're talking about records, it's something that is inevitable that it's gonna get broken. So, I mean, we were talking about happiness before this, right? So, I've contemplated this in the past, um, where I was thinking to myself, like, uh, if my motivation is to break a world record, or any record for that matter, course record, and have that be my defining reason or my defining motivator, I probably need to do an assessment of what I'm kind of, where my mind is at and where my focus is at, uh, and just reflect on w- how I'm behaving in life because it's gonna get broken, right? I mean, I could run 10:50 tomorrow and in 10 years, chances are that's no longer gonna be my, the world record any more. Someone's gonna run faster than that. So if you're living to hold on to a record versus living to try to move the sport forward, which any time you break a world record, you're moving the sport forward, then, then you have to look at that as like, that was my contribution, and whether I contribute again or not is kind of besides the point. What you want is that your performance, your contribution brings new people into the sport who are excited, motivated, and they can make their contribution and then we can ultimately see, well, how fast can someone run a controlled environment 100 miler? And that's what I really want to see, uh, 'cause I think I've gotten so much enjoyment from this sport. I mean, I've gotten so much enjoyment from this sport I've been able to turn it into a career. And I think there's, there's other people who can do the same thing and it's not necessarily gonna come at the expense of my career, uh, but it's gonna bring more attention to the sport. It's gonna bring more interest in the sport. It's gonna open the sport up to people who maybe otherwise would have never thought about it, seen it, considered it. And to me I think that's like a much more rewarding goal-

    6. LFLex Fridman48:21

       Mm-hmm.

    7. ZBZach Bitter48:21

       ... than saying I want to break this record and I want to hold it for decades or I want to die with this record so I never have to see someone go faster than me. (laughs)

    8. LFLex Fridman48:29

       Well, that's the progress of human civilization. We're standing on the shoulders of giants and we keep creating cool stuff. (laughs)

    9. ZBZach Bitter48:34

       Mm-hmm. Well, and it's, it's, the other thing is just like, if you're honest with yourself too, it's, uh, I mean, we're seeing this right now in the running world where, you know, new innovations come in, new technologies come in. New nutritional approaches come in. And then we see, like the new crop of folks have advantages that the old crop didn't have. And it can be easy to look back on that and say like, "Hey, well, um, you know, if I would had had that product or if I would have done that, I would have run this." But then you're getting into that negative, you know, thought process again, which I generally try to stay out of. (laughs)

    10. LFLex Fridman49:03

        (laughs) ... I think they came and if, if I had fire, I would have done way better with this.

    11. ZBZach Bitter49:08

        Right, yeah.

    12. LFLex Fridman49:08

        (laughs)

    13. ZBZach Bitter49:08

        Look at, look at these idiots up there with their cars. If I would have had a car back then, I would have been-

    14. LFLex Fridman49:11

        Yeah. (laughs)

    15. ZBZach Bitter49:11

        ... ruled the world. (laughs)

    16. LFLex Fridman49:13

        Um, let, let me just zoom out j- briefly and ask you about kind of beauty and love.

11. 49:21 – 55:43

    The most beautiful thing about running

    1. LFLex Fridman49:21

       What's the most beautiful thing about running to you? Why do you love it?

    2. ZBZach Bitter49:25

       I think, uh, there's kind of a couple of directions to look at it through, or lenses to look at it through. There's like the in the moment, right? There's always gonna be that run where, uh, you're clicking along and things just feel great, you get some endorphins and you get the, the, you know, the, the "runner's high" and that sort of stuff. And that's like, just like this great feeling that you can kind of tap into on the like, real, like, like, in the moment type of level. Uh, you know, you've... uh, my wife and I talk about this 'cause she's a competitive ultra runner as well, and, um, y- y- we'll, you'll, we'll have a day where, you know, we'll take a forced day off or something like that and it's necessary, right? It's gonna allow the enjoyment to continue but you get into this, like, routine of I wake up in the morning, I do this run and that kind of gets my day started, that gets my, my energies up, I get that runner's high afterwards. You remove that from the equation for a rest day and you just sort of like, "Oh, man, I don't-"

    3. LFLex Fridman50:18

       (laughs)

    4. ZBZach Bitter50:18

       "... feel like I never got started today." Like-

    5. LFLex Fridman50:20

       Yeah.

    6. ZBZach Bitter50:21

       ... you know, it's just this weird thing. It's almost, it, I think it's, it's funny because non-runners don't always, like, necessarily recognize it 'cause for them it's the complete opposite. They're like-

    7. LFLex Fridman50:29

       Mm-hmm.

    8. ZBZach Bitter50:29

       ... "If I can get away from not having to run today, that's going to be a good day." Versus... (laughs)

    9. LFLex Fridman50:35

       (laughs) Yeah.

    10. ZBZach Bitter50:35

        But it's one of those things that I think gets more addictive the more you do it. So, uh...

    11. LFLex Fridman50:38

        So, that's purely from the running perspective, there's this joy-

    12. ZBZach Bitter50:41

        Mm-hmm.

    13. LFLex Fridman50:42

        ... of, uh, of the runner's high, of the post after the run you feel like you can take on the world, that kind of thing?

    14. ZBZach Bitter50:47

        Yes. And I think that's one of the drivers from just a quality of life standpoint. Uh, just a, you know, an in the moment immediate gratification, uh, standpoint. But then there's like, I think the bigger picture stuff or the longer term stuff and for me that enjoyment is, like, just the process, like, of, uh, okay, I'm starting at this fitness level and I'm gonna do these workouts and by doing these workouts, I'm gonna see incremental progress from them. And then that's another kind of like, kind of short term gratification that's maybe a little longer than the day-to-day but, um, still, like, shorter than, like, a career or a s- or a build up for a particular race where you're saying, you're seeing yourself like, okay, maybe I'm focusing on short intervals right now and on week one, I covered this much distance in three minutes but by week four, I'm covering this much distance and you can just see that progress.

    15. LFLex Fridman51:37

        Mm-hmm.

    16. ZBZach Bitter51:37

        It is almost like, uh, in elementary school when you get the gold star for reading a book. It's like, did that gold star really mean anything? I don't know but it felt great when they gave it to me.

    17. LFLex Fridman51:45

        Yeah.

    18. ZBZach Bitter51:46

        (laughs)

    19. LFLex Fridman51:47

        Yeah.

    20. ZBZach Bitter51:47

        There's something about just finding improvement. And people love to see improvement, I think. So that's where, uh, I think you can also get some value in it by saying, "Look, I started here and I got there."

    21. LFLex Fridman51:57

        Mm-hmm.

    22. ZBZach Bitter51:57

        Um, and then I think there's also just, like, uh, what I would call this maybe more the cherry on top, which is, like, where you express your work, which is the race itself, where that's gonna be kind of the thing that kind of, like, uh, shows up on the end result and where it kind of identifies whether you did things right or wrong.

    23. LFLex Fridman52:15

        Yeah. So there's a sense which, in, in which training is a kind of, uh, preparation towards race day, and race day being the thing where you get to be the artist. You get to create-

    24. ZBZach Bitter52:27

        Mm-hmm.

    25. LFLex Fridman52:27

        ... this, this piece of art and it might suck, it might be beautiful. Uh, I mean, I, I, I see in the grappling world, I see competition in that same way when I feel the best about it, which is like, it sounds pretentious to say but like, I'm trying to be the best version of myself in this particular-

    26. ZBZach Bitter52:44

        Mm-hmm.

    27. LFLex Fridman52:45

        ... day of competition and to do something that I'll be proud of in, in a, in an artist way. Not in a kind of, some kind of numerical way but, like, as a wh- holistic sense, like, do something cool. Like, in grappling that means, for me, that means, like, not stalling, like, taking big risks and trying to dominate another person in, in the, in the context of grappling. And, and do it... like, push myself to the limit both cardio wise and technique wise and just play, play beautifully. I mean, you see this in kind of chess. There's systematic chess players and there's people that allow themselves to have those moments of genius where they take the big risk that e- eventually pays off or doesn't. And that to me is art. That-

    28. ZBZach Bitter53:32

        Mm-hmm.

    29. LFLex Fridman53:32

        I mean, there's art within running, there's art within chess, there's art within grappling and you get a chan-... Like, all the training is more like science and then it feels like the competition day is art.

    30. ZBZach Bitter53:43

        Yeah, I think that that, that's a really cool, cool way to look at it and I think it's when you really open up the perspective of that too, it's like even the... Obviously, you know, having a great day like winning the tournament or, you know, getting further than you were expected to or beating someone who you've never beaten before or something like that, uh, or in the running perspective, like achieving that goal time, uh, that sort of stuff. Obviously those are kind of like the ones you, you, if when you're honest with yourself, you really want and you're gonna probably get the most satisfaction out of but even when they don't go wrong, like maybe, like with your grappling tournament, uh, analogy, the, you know, maybe the guy you're grappling against does a move on you and you're like, "I was not prepared for that move."
12. 55:43 – 1:00:30

    Zach's training regime

    1. ZBZach Bitter55:44

    2. LFLex Fridman55:44

       What does your, uh, training look like year round, day to day, hour to hour? Like, optimal, maybe, uh, maybe you wanna pick a race w- in the context of which you wanna discuss that. But ... And also, people should follow you on Instagram. You have a lot of kind of interesting, um, like little glances into your training process and into your training thinking, which is quite fascinating. But if you look at an optimal training process, what does that look like?

    3. ZBZach Bitter56:12

       Yeah. So I think, uh, the ... if we're looking at it from like a philosophical level or like an approach level, I think there's some things that carry over from ... regardless of the distance.

    4. LFLex Fridman56:21

       Mm-hmm.

    5. ZBZach Bitter56:22

       So, I think working on your weaknesses and things that are least specific to what you're gonna do on race day but are still gonna be important things in terms of improving your ability to perform on race day or maximizing your potential, uh, with the things that are specific, you do first.

    6. LFLex Fridman56:41

       Mm-hmm.

    7. ZBZach Bitter56:42

       I say that, but (laughs) the, the, there's a caveat with endurance sport and I think maybe even more specifically with things like our ultra-marathons, our 100-milers where you want a really strong aerobic foundation, or like a base before you really start, I think, structuring things towards a specific one. So for me, I think like, a target for me is oftentimes like, uh, you know, getting really fit at, like, what my pace would be at like my aerobic threshold or what a lot of people maybe call like a maximum aerobic function. Um, I mean, the running world is kinda weird where we have like these terminologies where there's sometimes multiple words that essentially mean the same thing, but one is from like a, just an ac- an actual physiological reaction and one is just like a feeling and stuff like that. So ... (laughs)

    8. LFLex Fridman57:26

       You mentioned time on feet versus time in optimal physiological state. Like how important is it just to get, like, running done-

    9. ZBZach Bitter57:35

       Mm.

    10. LFLex Fridman57:35

        ... versus like running in a particular pace?

    11. ZBZach Bitter57:39

        That would depend on the event, I would say to a degree.

    12. LFLex Fridman57:41

        I see.

    13. ZBZach Bitter57:41

        And, and there's contra- uh, conflicting ideas about like, kinda how to structure it. I think a lotta times like, uh, you do wanna ... Like, time on feet in most cases is just gonna be like, "I'm running easy, whatever feels easy that day." And that can be different from one day to the next. Like, I might feel great and, you know, that produces a much faster pace than if I, you know, feel really miserable or something like that. Um, so that's why I think a lotta times running, well they'll, they'll do, they'll, they'll call it perceived, perceived effort or perceived-

    14. LFLex Fridman58:11

        Mm-hmm.

    15. ZBZach Bitter58:11

        ... exertion and they're r- you're, you're looking at kind of understanding the response your body has to a certain effort level. And you're supposed to target a certain effort level in order to like, get a certain response.

    16. LFLex Fridman58:24

        Yeah.

    17. ZBZach Bitter58:24

        So, to maybe simplify that a little bit or make it a little clearer like, I think I focus on essentially like short intervals. I focus on longer intervals or tempo runs. Uh, I focus on, um, like race pace intensity, which is a lotta times what I'll build my long run around. Um, but I'll also ... Like, those are kinda like the small pieces to the puzzle.

    18. LFLex Fridman58:46

        Those are the options you're working with?

    19. ZBZach Bitter58:47

        Yeah. But I'm gonna always try to work with those options on top of a massive aerobic base, which is gonna probably be like 80% of the work.

    20. LFLex Fridman58:54

        So how do you build that massive aerobic base? What are we talking about?

    21. ZBZach Bitter58:56

        Mm-hmm.

    22. LFLex Fridman58:56

        Just distance?

    23. ZBZach Bitter58:58

        Distance and essentially ... So, I like to call it micro stressing because you're gonna always start at a different spot depending on where your fitness level's at-

    24. LFLex Fridman59:04

        Right.

    25. ZBZach Bitter59:04

        ... and depending on where you're at as an individual. I'm gonna be targeting my aerobic threshold. I'm gonna get right up to it, but not necessarily cross over it. Um, it's, it, you know, it's, it's been popularized as maximum aerobic function as kind of a training philosophy. That philosophy in itself, I think maybe is a little more like holistic where they're saying, "Do this basically all the time and by doing so, you're gonna like, you're gonna raise your aerobic potential by so much that, you know, you can kind of like race yourself into shape at that point." And this would be maybe more specific for like shorter distance all- or endurance runs where you're not gonna really race yourself into shape with 100-milers. (laughs)

    26. LFLex Fridman59:42

        Yeah.

    27. ZBZach Bitter59:42

        But for 5Ks you might. You might do like a huge base building phase where you're going up to that maximum aerobic function or that aerobic threshold and you're watching your pace come down at that. So the rule there is basically like, if you're seeing improvement, that's the sign you're looking for or- or which would just be your pace dropping at that heart rate or at that intensity. And, uh, if you're seeing that continually go down, you're heading in the right direction. If you start seeing it go the r- opposite way, you're, you're probably overreaching where you're trying to do too much of it. So that's kinda dictates how much, the do- the dose, I guess you'd say.

    28. LFLex Fridman1:00:16

        When we talk about max aerobic function, are we talking about heart rate as the ultimate, as the really important metric here? So maintaining a particular heart rate during the run?

    29. ZBZach Bitter1:00:25

        Uh, y-

    30. LFLex Fridman1:00:26

        Is, is that the measure that ... Like how-
13. 1:00:30 – 1:10:55

    MAF 180 Formula

    1. ZBZach Bitter1:00:30

       a little tricky because like unless you go into a lab and get your aerobic threshold tested, it's really hard to have like an exact number on it. Um, you know, Dr. Phil Maffetone with the maximum aerobic function process, he'll say, "180 minus your age is gonna give you your-"

    2. LFLex Fridman1:00:42

       Yeah, that's the Maff 180 formula that I thought was just fascinating.

    3. ZBZach Bitter1:00:46

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    4. LFLex Fridman1:00:46

       For, it's like, uh, in the same way E equals m- E equals MC squared is fascinating, that there could be a formula that captures like optimal running.

    5. ZBZach Bitter1:00:53

       Yeah. (laughs)

    6. LFLex Fridman1:00:54

       So that, for people who don't know, that's 180 minus your age. If you train at that heart rate, if you run at that heart rate, you're going to progress a lot.

    7. ZBZach Bitter1:01:02

       And here's the advantage of that. I think like with any of these things, you wanna look at it through where are the advantages here and I need to account for those, and then where are the potential disadvantages-

    8. LFLex Fridman1:01:11

       Mm-hmm.

    9. ZBZach Bitter1:01:11

       ... and then decide, for me as an individual, do these advantages outweigh the disadvantages? And what's the alternative approach and is that gonna produce more advantages or less? So with, with maximum aerobic function, uh, here's some advantages. Like it is low enough intensity where you can train a-... pretty consistently at a fairly high volume, with a very low injury risk, with a very low, like, things that are gonna be of lower quality of life like muscle damage and things like that. Um, it's a more efficient way in the sense that you're gonna be, like, prioritizing, like, fat metabolization which, um, I mean if you're looking at like Jeff Volek and, or Dr. Jeff Volek and Dr. Dominic D'Agostino, some of their research and things like that. Like, they're gonna show that, you know, that's gonna be a little cleaner way to go about things from just a recovery standpoint, a breakdown standpoint. Um-

    10. LFLex Fridman1:02:01

        So then you could be like a, what they call like a fat adapted athlete so you can-

    11. ZBZach Bitter1:02:05

        Mm-hmm.

    12. LFLex Fridman1:02:05

        ... go to your fat stores for energy if you're-

    13. ZBZach Bitter1:02:08

        Yeah.

    14. LFLex Fridman1:02:08

        ... applying this ma- wha- what is it called by the way? MAF 180?

    15. ZBZach Bitter1:02:12

        Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    16. LFLex Fridman1:02:12

        Is that, is that a good, is that ... But what, what are your thoughts about in general for yourself and for the broader population?

    17. ZBZach Bitter1:02:19

        I think the MAF 180 formula is about as good of a formula as you're gonna find in terms of capturing as many people as you can get away with capturing with a-

    18. LFLex Fridman1:02:28

        Mm-hmm.

    19. ZBZach Bitter1:02:28

        ... kind of a universal thing. Uh, like any of these things, I mean, i- it's, it's more likely kind of on a Bell curve where, like, the bulk of that, mm, 180 minus your age is probably gonna be a pretty good at least starting point to kind of figure out where that is. There's some other things you can like maybe use to kind of check it that I like to do. If I'm, uh, let's say I did, I did 180 minus my age and I went out and I started running and it was like, I'm running along and I'm just like, my, my breathing is labored. I'm, you know, I'm struggling to get a sentence out without gasping for breath.

    20. LFLex Fridman1:02:59

        Mm-hmm.

    21. ZBZach Bitter1:02:59

        Well, that's my body telling me I'm probably not actually at my true, like, MAF number or my true, like, underneath-

    22. LFLex Fridman1:03:05

        Mm-hmm.

    23. ZBZach Bitter1:03:05

        ... my true aerobic threshold. Like, aerobic threshold and maximum aerobic function, you should be able to do that for hours, and you should be able to breathe pretty efficiently.

    24. LFLex Fridman1:03:12

        And talk?

    25. ZBZach Bitter1:03:12

        Yep. Carry a conversation. Um, other people will say like, you, another way to kinda gauge it if you can breathe in your nose and out your mouth. That's not necessarily the best way to do on a per- from a performance standpoint but it can be a good kind of governor that will allow you to like, if you can, if you can no longer breathe in your nose and out your mouth, you're probably going too fast to actually technically be at your MAF pace or under your MAF pace.

    26. LFLex Fridman1:03:33

        Yeah, I had a actually, when I was in, in, in better shape, I had trouble getting to that MAF number. I, I found myself like, uh, that I would be doing way too much work, like-

    27. ZBZach Bitter1:03:45

        It was too hard to do it?

    28. LFLex Fridman1:03:45

        ... it was too hard to get-

    29. ZBZach Bitter1:03:47

        Mm-hmm.

    30. LFLex Fridman1:03:47

        ... to that number. I was running a much lower heart rate, like 10 to 20, what do you call that, beats lower.

Episode duration: 3:01:47