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The Mel Robbins PodcastThe Mel Robbins Podcast

#1 Dopamine Expert: Find Motivation, Increase Your Focus, and Learn the Science of Self-Control

In today’s episode, you’ll learn how to get motivated, even when you don’t feel like it. If you feel unmotivated, scatter brained, or exhausted… If you keep reaching for your phone, wine, or the remote even when you want to stop… If you’re frustrated with yourself for lacking discipline…. This conversation will help you stop wasting time and finally understand why it’s so hard to do the things you know you should do. Joining Mel today is Dr. Anna Lembke, MD, who is the world’s leading expert on dopamine and compulsive behavior. Dr. Lembke is a professor of psychiatry and addiction medicine at Stanford University, chief of Stanford’s Addiction Medicine Dual Diagnosis Clinic. But even with all of her knowledge, she will share with you: she also falls into the same traps you do! In this episode, Dr. Lembke explains the truth most people don’t understand: Modern life has trained your brain to chase constant dopamine hits, and that’s why motivation, focus, and joy feel harder than ever. But here’s the good news: you can reset your brain. Dr. Lembke walks you through the science of dopamine, pain, pleasure, and motivation, and shares a practical protocol for rebuilding focus, energy, and self-control in a world designed to hijack your attention. In this episode, you’ll learn: -The “pleasure–pain seesaw” that explains why you keep reaching for the thing you swear you’re done with -How dopamine really works (and why chasing pleasure backfires) -The hidden reason scrolling, snacking, and multitasking make you feel worse, not better -The simple but powerful way to rebalance pleasure and pain -What to do when you feel stuck in compulsive habits you “can’t quit” This is not a conversation about shame, addiction labels, or self-control. It’s about taking your brain back. If you want more energy, clarity, and motivation, and if you’re ready to stop fighting yourself and start working with your brain, this episode is for you. For more resources related to today’s episode, click here for the podcast episode page: https://www.melrobbins.com/episode/episode-363/ Follow The Mel Robbins Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/themelrobbinspodcast I’m just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is NOT intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I’ll see you in the next episode. In this episode: 00:00 Meet the Guest 02:40 Your Brain Is Addicted to Easy Pleasure 08:37 How the Brain Balances Pleasure and Pain 15:56 Understanding the Different Types of Addiction 27:49 We Are All Addicted To Something 41:12 Dopamine And The Pleasure Pain Balance 43:30 The Power of Discomfort 50:37 Guide to Creating a Dopamine Detox 01:12:47 The Power of Boredom — Follow Mel: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melrobbins/ TikTok: http://tiktok.com/@melrobbins Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melrobbins LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melrobbins Website: http://melrobbins.com​ — Sign up for Mel’s newsletter: https://melrob.co/sign-up-newsletter A note from Mel to you, twice a week, sharing simple, practical ways to build the life you want. — Subscribe to Mel’s channel here: https://www.youtube.com/melrobbins​?sub_confirmation=1 — Listen to The Mel Robbins Podcast 🎧 New episodes drop every Monday & Thursday! https://melrob.co/spotify https://melrob.co/applepodcasts https://melrob.co/amazonmusic — Looking for Mel’s books on Amazon? Find them here: The Let Them Theory: https://amzn.to/3IQ21Oe The Let Them Theory Audiobook: https://amzn.to/413SObp The High 5 Habit: https://amzn.to/3fMvfPQ The 5 Second Rule: https://amzn.to/4l54fah

Mel RobbinshostDr. Anna Lembkeguest
Jan 22, 20261h 19mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:40

    Meet the Guest

    1. MR

      Today, we're talking about how to get motivated even when you don't feel like it, with the world's number one expert on dopamine. Dr. Anna Lembke is a professor and the medical director of addiction medicine at Stanford University School of Medicine. What is dopamine, and why is it important?

    2. AL

      Dopamine is a chemical that we make in our brain. Dopamine has many different functions, but one of its most important functions is in pleasure, reward, and motivation. It makes us the ultimate seekers, never satisfied with what we have, always wanting more.

    3. MR

      You're saying that in modern life, especially with a phone, especially with so many things that give you a quick, little novel hit, boom, boom, boom, boom, we are so out of whack.

    4. AL

      Whether it's substances or behaviors or work or relationships, we've made it more accessible, more potent, more novel, such that now we're vulnerable to get addicted to just about anything: drugs and alcohol, all kinds of behaviors, gambling, social media, video games, online shopping. People can get addicted to other people.

    5. MR

      Really?

    6. AL

      Yes. To be happier, to experience more joy, we need to do the counterintuitive thing of moderating and greatly reducing our use of instantaneous, easy pleasures. By the end of the conversation, you can get out of the vortex of compulsive overconsumption and get to a place where you're not constantly seeking these rewards, but instead really showing up for your life.

    7. MR

      Okay, before we jump in with the number one dopamine expert in the world and talk all things motivation, my team was showing me something. Fifty-seven percent of you who watch the Mel Robbins Podcast here on YouTube are not subscribers, so it's my goal that we get that number to 50%, and I know you're the kind of person that loves supporting people who support you. So if that subscribe button is lit up, it means you're not a subscriber. Do me a favor, just hit Subscribe. That's how you can show your friend Mel Robbins and my team here that you are supporting us, and you love that we support you. By the way, it's free to hit Subscribe, and that way you don't miss a thing, and it tells me and the team, "Oh, my gosh, I love these experts, Mel. Tell me more about dopamine and motivation," and we will keep bringing them to you here. Thank you, thank you, thank you. All righty, you ready? Let's get motivated and jump in. Please help me welcome Dr. Anna Lembke to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

    8. AL

      Thank you for inviting me. I'm absolutely

  2. 2:40 – 8:37

    Your Brain Is Addicted to Easy Pleasure

    1. AL

      delighted to be here.

    2. MR

      Dr. Lembke, could you tell me, if I take everything to heart that you're about to teach me today, and I truly apply all this research about dopamine and motivation and happiness and pain and pleasure centers, and I apply it to my life, how could my life change?

    3. AL

      If you're like me, and you're like many of my patients, you are probably unconsciously organizing your entire life around reward and little dopamine hits. From the moment we wake up in the morning, we reach for our phones, we scroll, we go get our coffee with our caffeine. We get in the car, we're listening to our music. It's not interesting, we're flipping the stations. Then we get to work, and all of a sudden, we have to let go of those instantaneous pleasures. Now we're, like, bored, we're frustrated, we're restless, we're anxious. We can't concentrate. So then we're interrupting ourselves and saying, "Oh, I better check my phone," or, "Maybe I should look at that video," and we're doing that through the entirety of the day until we get to the end of the day where we go home. We can't wait till we get there to have a glass of wine, watch our shows, eat a cupcake, and then have difficulty falling asleep at night 'cause we're so wound up and restless. So what I'm saying to you is that I hope by the end of the conversation, you can get out of the vortex of compulsive overconsumption and get to a place where you're not constantly seeking these rewards, but instead really showing up for your life.

    4. MR

      Oh, my God! [chuckles] Dr. Lembke, this is why I've been so excited to talk to you, because you just explained every single one of us, and we're in it, and so we don't see how the constant distraction and reaching for all these things-

    5. AL

      Right

    6. MR

      ... and all, everything you just described. So what I got already so far is that a lot of your work centers around the fact that, as a human being, we have this kind of natural system inside us, that we will move right like a freight train towards what feels really good, but we reflexively move away from anything that might feel hard. Is that kind of what you're talking about?

    7. AL

      Yes, very nicely summarized.

    8. MR

      Okay, and your research in particular focuses on dopamine. So let's just start at the basics. What exactly is dopamine, and why is it important?

    9. AL

      Okay, so dopamine is a chemical that we make in our brain. It's what's called a neurotransmitter. Neurotransmitters are the molecules that bridge the gap between neurons. Neurons are these long, spindly cells that conduct electrical circuits. Our brains are fundamentally a bunch of wires.

    10. MR

      Okay.

    11. AL

      But those wires, the neurons, don't actually touch end to end. There's a little space between them. That space is called the synapse.

    12. MR

      Okay.

    13. AL

      And neurotransmitters bridge that gap between neurons to allow for fine-tune control of those electrical circuits. Dopamine has many different functions, but one of its most important functions is in-... pleasure, reward, and motivation.

    14. MR

      Okay.

    15. AL

      Now, it's not the only neurotransmitter involved in that process, but it has become a kind of common currency for neuroscientists to measure the reinforcing potential of different substances and behaviors. Fundamentally, the more dopamine that is released in the brain's reward pathway, and the faster that it's released, the more likely is that substance to be reinforcing or something that our brain recognizes as important for survival, something to approach, explore, and potentially exploit by doing it again and again.

    16. MR

      So let me just give this back to you to see if I'm understanding this. So your brain releases these chemicals, dopamine is one of them, and dopamine is related to motivation and pleasure?

    17. AL

      Yes. A more fundamental way to talk about it-

    18. MR

      Yeah

    19. AL

      ... is it's related to reinforcement.

    20. MR

      Okay.

    21. AL

      So something that I do-

    22. MR

      Yep

    23. AL

      ... that's often associated with pleasure-

    24. MR

      Yeah

    25. AL

      ... but not exclusively associated with pleasure, which then I want to do again and again-

    26. MR

      Okay

    27. AL

      ... because my brain recognizes it as potentially important for survival.

    28. MR

      How important is dopamine in terms of the role that it plays when you are trying to either break and replace bad habits or create new positive habits? You see what I mean? I can understand what you're talking about because the th- the thing I immediately thought of is, whenever I've heard anybody talk about something like heroin or OxyContin or something like that, that first time that somebody sadly-

    29. AL

      Right

    30. MR

      ... uses it, there's this boom! -

  3. 8:37 – 15:56

    How the Brain Balances Pleasure and Pain

    1. AL

      it again.

    2. MR

      Oh, okay, wait a minute. So I think that that leads us to something I saw that you covered very early in your book, which is there is this pleasure-pain system that you were born with. It is in your body, and there's something that you write about called the pleasure-pain balance.

    3. AL

      Yeah.

    4. MR

      Can you explain that a little bit?

    5. AL

      Yes. So this is an extended metaphor that I use to try to explain, at a very fundamental level-

    6. MR

      Yeah

    7. AL

      ... how we process pleasure and pain. And to me, one of the really interesting findings in neuroscience is that pain and pleasure are actually co-located in the brain. So the same parts of the brain that process pleasure also process pain, and they work through what's called an opponent process mechanism.

    8. MR

      Okay.

    9. AL

      Okay, so imagine that deep in your reward pathway, there is a scale or a balance, something like a, a teeter-totter in a kid's-

    10. MR

      Oh, like a seesaw.

    11. AL

      Like a seesaw.

    12. MR

      Yeah, okay.

    13. AL

      Um, and, and when it's at rest, it... That balance or that, that beam on the central fulcrum is level with the ground.

    14. MR

      Okay.

    15. AL

      When we experience pleasure, it tips one way; and pain, it tips the other. Now, again, this this is a vast oversimplification because, of course, we can experience pleasure and pain simultaneously, for example, when we eat spicy food, and the s- the brain is just much, much more complex than this pleasure-pain balance.

    16. MR

      Okay.

    17. AL

      But it's a useful framework for conceptualizing some fundamental concepts in neuroscience, like the concept of homeostasis and the concept of neuroadaptation, which I'm going to explain now.

    18. MR

      Okay.

    19. AL

      Okay. So let's say, um, you know, I do something pleasurable. We talked about potato chips. I also really like potato chips. Um, you know, I eat a potato chip. That gives me pleasure. My pleasure-pain balance tilts to the side of pleasure. But there are certain rules governing this balance, and the first and most important rule is that the balance wants to remain level with the ground. This is what neuroscientists call homeostasis, right? It's a range of baseline conditions that the organism must maintain in order to survive.

    20. MR

      Mm.

    21. AL

      So as soon as I've eaten that potato chip, and my pleasure-pain balance has tilted to the side of pleasure... I like how you tilt your head when I, when I say [chuckles] that.

    22. MR

      Like a dog. [chuckles]

    23. AL

      Right. [chuckles]

    24. MR

      Is she gonna give me a treat?

    25. AL

      Right. [chuckles] Right. My brain is going to react by working very hard to bring that balance level again, and that process is called neuroadaptation, and I like to imagine that as these little neuroadaptation gremlins hopping on the pain side of the balance, 'cause that's the level at which I understand it. But the thing about those gremlins is that they don't get off as soon as I'm level. I wish they did. But they stay on until the balance is tilted an equal and opposite amount to the side of pain. That's the come down, the craving, the hangover, or just that moment of wanting to have one more potato chip, drink one more glass of wine, you know, wa- watch one more TikTok video.

    26. MR

      Oh, wait, hold on a second.

    27. AL

      Okay.

    28. MR

      Okay, I think I might have gotten this, but let me see.

    29. AL

      [chuckles]

    30. MR

      So takeaway number one, as I was listening, is that you are designed with this pleasure-pain balance, and we're imagining a seesaw in life between the things that are easy, that you love, pleasurable; the things that are very hard, that you need to do, that you avoid, pain, right? But you're-... brain is not only able to tilt toward pleasure or tilt toward pain, so you can experience it, but it's always gonna wanna get itself back to that seesaw being level. But you also said another word: craving. Is craving part of this pain thing, which then tries to get you to get more pleasure? Is that, like, what- where does craving come into this?

  4. 15:56 – 27:49

    Understanding the Different Types of Addiction

    1. AL

      Great question. So, so first of all, let's define addiction.

    2. MR

      Okay.

    3. AL

      Okay, it, it is a brain disease, but we don't have a brain scan or a blood test to diagnose it. We base it on patterns of behavior. It is the continued compulsive use of a substance or a behavior, despite harm to self and/or others. You could have a range of addictions to mild, moderate, and severe, and you could have pre-addicted states, right? Where you haven't quite yet crossed over into addiction, but now you've got a compulsive, habitual behavior, where you've lost some agency, but not all agency, and you know it's not good for you, you have regret about doing it-

    4. MR

      Mm.

    5. AL

      ... you have some difficulty stopping, but if you really set your mind to it, you, you can. Okay, so that- let's just frame that as kind of what we're talking about. It's really a spectrum or a continuum.

    6. MR

      What immediately came to mind for me-

    7. AL

      Yeah

    8. MR

      ... is just constantly being on your phone.

    9. AL

      Yes.

    10. MR

      And this sense of, "I wish I weren't on my phone-

    11. AL

      Yes

    12. MR

      ... enough or as much," and that feeling that every one of us has after you blow through two hours mindlessly scrolling-

    13. AL

      Yes

    14. MR

      ... and wishing that you hadn't. So is that an example of what you're talking about in this range?

    15. AL

      That is a great example.

    16. MR

      Okay.

    17. AL

      And digital media, social media, short-form videos activate the same reward pathway as drugs and alcohol. They're highly reinforcing. We do see, in clinical care, people who are getting addicted to many different forms of digital media.

    18. MR

      Okay.

    19. AL

      Um, and just looking around, you can see that people are overly engaged with their phones. Now, maybe they're not meeting threshold criteria for a clinical addiction, but it's getting in the way, in many instances, um, you know, with their, their goals and even their values.

    20. MR

      Yeah.

    21. AL

      So that initial exposure to whatever our drug of choice is, and we're all wired a little differently-

    22. MR

      Yep

    23. AL

      ... so for, for one person, it might be potato chips; for another, cigarettes; for another, you know, short-form video on their phone. That is reinforcing, rewarding, releases dopamine in the reward pathway, at least initially. And eventually, when we become addicted or we're in this compulsive overconsumptive loop, now I'm using... not to actually solve the initial problem or even to have fun, but because I'm trying to get back to homeostasis.

    24. MR

      Sure.

    25. AL

      And the reason this is important is because in the immediate aftermath of using our drug of choice-... it typically feels good, because it's moving our pleasure-pain balance back to homeostasis.

    26. MR

      Mm.

    27. AL

      But the long-term effect is to actually drive our balance more to the side of pain, and that is a fundamental key concept, that the more we use our drug of choice, the more we go into this pleasure-pain balance that is tilted to the side of pain, where whenever then we're not using, we lose our ability to take joy in other more modest rewards.

    28. MR

      Mm.

    29. AL

      We're in the vortex of compulsive overconsumption and craving. We've narrowed our focus to just wanting to get to where we can use our drug of choice again, to bring it balance to the, you know, to that homeostatic position.

    30. MR

      And you also- and also behavior of choice.

  5. 27:49 – 41:12

    We Are All Addicted To Something

    1. AL

      their vulnerability to addiction.

    2. MR

      You know, one other thing that I see a really big connection to is anxiety-

    3. AL

      Mm

    4. MR

      ... and dopamine.

    5. AL

      Yeah.

    6. MR

      And I'll share this because I think it might be helpful. One of the things that my daughter and I are working on right now, uh, 'cause we definitely have a relationship where we're- where I'm like her blankie, and she has no problem with me talking about this. And it's something that I noticed that I've struggled with in relationships, too, which is, whenever life gets stressful or whenever I get flooded with emotion-

    7. AL

      Yeah

    8. MR

      ... whether I feel a little homesick, or I, I, I nervous about what's about to happen, or I just am on edge, or I wake up feeling like sick, that there is almost this reflexive need to quickly reach out and touch base and quickly reach out and get assurance from somebody else.

    9. AL

      Yes.

    10. MR

      And I have, as I've gotten older, really noticed this propensity, whether it was with my husband or with my business partner, and taught myself to just ask, "Wait, am I reaching out 'cause I wanna connect, or am I reaching out because I, myself, am feeling something that's difficult and uncomfortable?" And instead of just standing in this moment and holding myself here and going, "Okay, I can get through this. It's okay-

    11. AL

      Yeah.

    12. MR

      ... This, this emotion's gonna pass. I'm capable of handling this difficult thing I'm about to do. I'm capable of feeling these emotions," I would reach out and borrow the s- the, the confidence or whatever-

    13. AL

      Mm

    14. MR

      ... from somebody else. And it's like a simple, quick hit that immediately resolves the anxiety you're feeling. And now I'm- my daughter is working on this with me, that any time-

    15. AL

      Yeah

    16. MR

      ... she feels this flood-

    17. AL

      Mm-hmm

    18. MR

      ... and it's painful when you feel that. And obviously, every expert out there says, "When you're anxious, the worst thing you can do is avoid the painful thing." But seeking reassurance, I just realized, is pleasurable, and that's why the anxiety gets worse. That's why you start to become addicted in those moments. "Oh, gotta reach out to Mom."

    19. AL

      Yeah.

    20. MR

      "Gotta check in with Mom."

    21. AL

      Right.

    22. MR

      "Gotta make sure my spot..." Like, that, that is part of this mechanism of pain, pleasure, dopamine, and not forcing yourself to do the small, uncomfortable things. Is that... Can you explain a little bit? Like, what are you- 'cause I see you nodding and smiling.

    23. AL

      Oh, yeah, I, I absolutely love this, a- and this is why I think we're sisters from another mother. [laughing] Because th- that's essentially my drug of choice, is attachment. Let me start by saying-... it is wonderful to have emotional intimacy-

    24. MR

      Yes

    25. AL

      -and people in your life-

    26. MR

      Yes

    27. AL

      -you can reach to, and interdependency, and, and that we need each other and, and love each other, and, and wanna reach out to each other. So, like, that, that's obviously the wonderful starting point. But what you're getting at is really, really important, and it's that moment that we cross from sort of mutual love and respect to, "I'm actually using you to..." A- as a drug, essentially. "I'm using you to kind of, um, help me modulate, you know, my emotions."

    28. MR

      Yes.

    29. AL

      Which again, in and of itself, is not necessarily bad because-

    30. MR

      Well, if everyone's well, of course!

  6. 41:12 – 43:30

    Dopamine And The Pleasure Pain Balance

    1. AL

      Yeah

    2. MR

      ... and haven't found it.

    3. AL

      Yeah.

    4. MR

      And so when you have... Can you, uh, use that to explain just the cycle of pleasure, pain-

    5. AL

      Yeah

    6. MR

      ... and how dopamine is involved?

    7. AL

      Yeah.

    8. MR

      Just, like, in the begin- so the first one you realize, "Oh, my God!"

    9. AL

      Right.

    10. MR

      So it's novel. Dopamine gets released because of why?

    11. AL

      Again, dopamine is our reward neurotransmitter.

    12. MR

      Okay.

    13. AL

      It, it, it, it is what signals to us that something in the environment is important for our survival. We should approach it, explore it, and potentially exploit it.

    14. MR

      Got it.

    15. AL

      It... Dopamine evolved to bring us to the natural rewards that we need to live: food, clothing, shelter, finding a mate. What happens in addiction is that that dopamine signal and the reward pathway gets hijacked by this drug that resembles a natural reward and works through that similar mechanism but is not, in fact, uh, a natural reward and is not-- and is actually adverse or contrary to our well-being. But we no longer recognize it as such.... in part, because over time, our brain adapts to that increased dopamine firing. Eventually, we end up in this chronic dopamine deficit state, and now we're needing to use, not to get pleasure, but actually just to bring ourselves back up to baseline and stop feeling pain. But we don't see that!

    16. MR

      Right.

    17. AL

      We don't see that.

    18. MR

      Okay, so let me see if I can give this back to you. So the fact that you keep looking for another novel, the fact that you keep going back to the novel, that's a sign that you're in a dopamine deficit state because you're chasing something like that?

    19. AL

      Even more importantly-

    20. MR

      Yeah

    21. AL

      ... when you, you, that you lose some agency around your use-

    22. MR

      Hmm

    23. AL

      ... and that even when you or others recognize it's problematic, you have trouble stopping.

    24. MR

      Okay.

    25. AL

      And when you're not using, you experience a lot of craving to use and a compulsion driven by that craving to want to do it again, even when you committed to

  7. 43:30 – 50:37

    The Power of Discomfort

    1. AL

      not doing it.

    2. MR

      Got it. Okay. You've said that in today's world, every single one of us is vulnerable to addiction, even if we don't realize it. Can you explain what you mean by that?

    3. AL

      Yeah. So we talked about these technological affordances-

    4. MR

      Yeah

    5. AL

      ... that make digital media more addictive. And w- you know, kind of the big idea in Dopamine Nation is that we've essentially drugified everything, whether it's substances or behaviors or work or relationships. We've made it more accessible, more potent, um, you know, more novel, such that now we're vulnerable to get addicted to just about anything, including things that we typically think of as healthy.

    6. MR

      Like what?

    7. AL

      Like reading, right?

    8. MR

      Yeah.

    9. AL

      Now we're like: "Oh, great, my kid's reading a book. That's awesome!" But I can tell you, I and many of my patients have gotten addicted to various forms of reading.

    10. MR

      Huh.

    11. AL

      But also things like human connection, as we talked about, right? Like, that's super healthy. We need each other. We, we need human connection. But now we have these devices that are so reinforcing because of their dynamic design features, that they create the illusion of connection, even when there's no real connection happening. And more importantly, they hijack our reward system so that we don't want to disengage, even when we've exhausted their utility, right? So these, these digital media are great when we use them as a tool, not great when we use them-

    12. MR

      Hmm

    13. AL

      ... as a drug to change the way we feel.

    14. MR

      Why is it so damn hard to do the simplest things, like going to the gym, eating healthy, or just getting started on that project or on studying? You know you need to do it, but you can't seem to get the get up and go to do it.

    15. AL

      We evolve to reflexively approach pleasure and avoid pain-

    16. MR

      Gotcha

    17. AL

      ... in a world of scarcity-

    18. MR

      Okay

    19. AL

      ... where we would have to do a lot of upfront work for a tiny little bit of reward.

    20. MR

      Got it.

    21. AL

      Okay.

    22. MR

      So we are designed to move toward what's easy now, towards what's pleasurable now, and we are designed to move away from the gym or away from the project that we don't want to do.

    23. AL

      Yes, and again, th- that is a great built-in mechanism-

    24. MR

      Uh-huh

    25. AL

      ... to keep us alive in a world of scarcity. But in this world of overwhelming overabundance, it, it's a very bad mechanism, because now we're exposing our brains to this fire hose of dopamine. We're getting into this dopamine deficit state. Now we've narrowed our focus. All we want to do is keep pursuing pleasure to bring ourselves back up to baseline, and the, the prospect of getting up off the couch and actually going out the door, much less going to the gym, has become kind of a Mount Everest for us, right? Because we've reset our hedonic or joy set point. Plus, we are embedded in a culture that tells us that pain is dangerous, that if we're uncomfortable, then we're potentially creating a psychic scar that's gonna set us, set us up for future pain in the form of post-traumatic stress disorder. That what we need is to pursue comfort, to be happy, to be relaxed, that any kind of distress is actually going to harm our brains. And in fact, the opposite is true, that when an organism is exposed to right-sized pain, that actually triggers our body's own reregulating healing mechanisms, and we start to upregulate our feel-good neurotransmitters, like dopamine, like serotonin, like our endogenous opioids, like our endogenous cannabinoids. So we get our dopamine indirectly by paying for it upfront, which is the way that we evolved to get it. Again, we evolved to have to do work to get a little bit of reward. So the message here is, to be happier, to experience more joy, we need to do the counterintuitive thing of moderating and greatly reducing our use of instantaneous, easy pleasures, and intentionally leaning into right-sized pain in order to reset our pleasure-pain balance.

    26. MR

      That makes so much sense. The way that a human being is designed is we need moments of pain all day long, and what you're talking about is shoving yourself out of bed. You're talking about getting out the door for a walk. You're talking about how painful it can be to just get yourself out of that lull, turn off the TV-

    27. AL

      Right

    28. MR

      ... stand up, and go fold the laundry. You're talking about picking up the phone and having the hard conversation.

    29. AL

      Right.

    30. MR

      You're talking about working on your resume or taking that AI skills class-

  8. 50:37 – 1:12:47

    Guide to Creating a Dopamine Detox

    1. AL

      so many people are, are finding helpful.

    2. MR

      One thing I want to ask before we talk about what the hell do we do, Dr. Lembke- [laughing]

    3. AL

      [laughing]

    4. MR

      ... is how does over-rewarding yourself with these small, little, cheap dopamine pleasure, easy, easy, easy, do the easy thing, how does that mess up our motivation in the long term?

    5. AL

      It messes up our motivation because we become narrowly focused on short-term rewards-

    6. MR

      Mm

    7. AL

      ... and we lose the ability to see the longer-term rewards that require the upfront work, that are actually better for our wellbeing, you know, over months to years.

    8. MR

      So does the pain also feel bigger? So if you have constant pleasure, easy distraction around you, "I'll just do the easy thing," "I'll just order the-

    9. AL

      Yeah

    10. MR

      ... Uber Eats," "I'll just do this," "I'll just do that"-

    11. AL

      Yeah

    12. MR

      ... does it feel harder over the long run to get off the couch-

    13. AL

      Ab-

    14. MR

      ... or to go for that walk?

    15. AL

      Absolutely, and again, by changing our hedonic or joy set point-

    16. MR

      Yep

    17. AL

      ... what it means is that we need bigger pleasures to feel any pleasure at all.

    18. MR

      Oh.

    19. AL

      And even the merest pain is incredibly painful. And we see this now in clinical care, where, you know, people talk about really quite ordinary things that they struggle to do. You know, simply paying a bill or getting off the couch and going and meeting with people or doing the dishes. Now, these are, you know, kind of, e- everyday things that, you know, nobody really likes or generally we don't like, but they're even more painful than in prior generations.

    20. MR

      Well, you know, one example that I can point to, to kind of broaden this out to a normal person who's just really struggling with motivation-

    21. AL

      Yeah

    22. MR

      ... you know, doesn't, who's like, "Well, I'm not really addicted to anything," but-

    23. AL

      Right

    24. MR

      ... has really leaned in to say, "But I've really screwed up the pain pleasure-"

    25. AL

      Yes

    26. MR

      "... uh, balance in my body. I am finding it harder and harder to concentrate or to do the little hard things, or to be motivated, to do the things that I needed to do." If you've ever had an experience, or you had an experience as a parent, where your kids go to, like, a school sleepaway camp, or they go on a field trip, and they take their phones away, and they are forced to tolerate that-

    27. AL

      Yeah

    28. MR

      ... they are so much happier.

    29. AL

      Yes.

    30. MR

      And so it's an example of how your body naturally resets-

  9. 1:12:47 – 1:19:23

    The Power of Boredom

    1. AL

      using our drug of choice.

    2. MR

      What is so powerful, Dr. Lembke, about boring movements? Taking a walk-

    3. AL

      Stretching, yes.

    4. MR

      Rolling.

    5. AL

      Yeah.

    6. MR

      What, what it... W- why is that a powerful thing to do?

    7. AL

      ... Well, essentially, you know, boredom is a really fascinating emotion because, um, number one, it's painful because it's boring, right?

    8. MR

      Yes.

    9. AL

      And, and we're really used to being overstimulated. But also boredom is kind of terrifying, because when we are bored, we are then confronted with kind of fundamental questions about life, like, "Why am I doing this?" or, "What is my purpose anyway?" And when we wade into those existential areas, it can really, you know, cause us to feel some degree of terror, especially since we don't tend to think about those things 'cause we're always distracting us-

    10. MR

      Mm

    11. AL

      ... ourselves with, with our drugs. But, but boredom is really, really necessary, because it's only when we allow ourselves to be bored and to sort of quiet our minds, that number one, we become acquainted with our own thoughts and feelings, you know, and, and, and, and sort of acquire the mindfulness that we need in order to move at the pace of mindfulness, which is this peaceful and grounding place. But also, boredom really is, um, kind of the, the midwife of invention, right? It, it's only when we're bored enough to allow ourselves to explore a new idea and not interrupt ourselves in the middle of that thought, that we get to a place where we have a new idea, right? Or an inspiration, or something that we want to move toward, or even know what we want to move toward. You know, what is it that I really do like to do? Like, what actually gives me deep joy? And we can't know those things if we're constantly distracting ourselves and never allowing ourselves to be bored.

    12. MR

      Well, it feels almost like boredom is when you're probably in homeostasis. [chuckles]

    13. AL

      Yeah.

    14. MR

      And you, and, and you just gave me-

    15. AL

      Yeah

    16. MR

      ... a little bit of an insight-

    17. AL

      Right

    18. MR

      ... because I have no problem taking a walk, because I find it visually stunning in nature, and the dogs are running around, and I'm good about, you know, not looking at my phone at all, but I cannot stretch to save my life. [laughing]

    19. AL

      [laughing]

    20. MR

      I literally roll out a mat, and I get down, and I'm like, "Okay, we're done." And like, my, my, my brain is like ping pong, ping pong, ping-

    21. AL

      Yeah.

    22. MR

      And so I'm realizing that's an area where I could step on the pain intentionally and start to build a bit of tolerance there, that would probably bring more happiness into my life. [chuckles] Dr. Lembke, if you could speak directly to the person listening, if they take just one action, out of everything that you have taught us today, what do you think the most important thing to do is?

    23. AL

      I think the most important thing is just to recognize how resilient we actually are-

    24. MR

      Mm

    25. AL

      ... and how we really are wired for pain, and lean into it. N- not, not in a way, again, that's harmful, like we're not talking about over-exercising, right?

    26. MR

      Right.

    27. AL

      Like, people can get addicted to exercise.

    28. MR

      Right.

    29. AL

      But just, just recognizing that we, we can do these hard things, and in the process, reset our reward pathways, and that i- slowly over time, things will get better.

    30. MR

      Oh, my gosh! I, I learned so much from you today. I'm so excited. The connection between intentional moments of discomfort and pain-

Episode duration: 1:19:23

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