4 Signs of Emotionally Immature Parents & How to Heal

1. 0:00 – 6:44

   Welcome

   1. MRMel Robbins0:00

      I went on to our Instagram account, where we have 8.5 million followers, and I put up a poll: "Are your parents emotionally immature?" 91% of people said yes.

   2. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson0:14

      Wow.

   3. MRMel Robbins0:16

      This is an exercise on page 26 for assessing your parents' emotional immaturity. I want you to just listen. "My parents didn't express much empathy or emotional awareness. My parent was irritated by differences or different points of view. Even polite disagreement could make my parent very defensive." I was a very emotionally immature parent for a large part of my kids' life.

   4. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson0:41

      Mm-hmm.

   5. MRMel Robbins0:41

      And I can see the damage that it did, but I think as kids, you think (laughs) that there's something you can do to change this. And the fact is, you can't make somebody else emotionally mature. A person has to do that for themselves and they have to want to, because it's actually work. If somebody would love to start becoming more emotionally mature, what is one thing that you would want for them to do?

   6. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson1:09

      I'm a, a big advocate for... (clock ticking)

   7. MRMel Robbins1:14

      Hey, it's your friend Mel, and before we jump into this extraordinary episode, I just wanna ask you, if you're loving this channel and you love The Mel Robbins Podcast, take a moment and subscribe. It's a great way to support me and the show, and it helps us bring you world-renowned experts. All right, you ready to jump in? Let's do this. Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to The Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so excited that you are here. I am f- fired up about our conversation. I cannot wait to dig into this with you. It's always such an honor to spend time with you and to be together, and if you're a new listener, I just wanna take a moment and personally welcome you to The Mel Robbins Podcast family, and I'm glad that you made the time to listen to this particular episode, because here's what it tells me about you. It tells me that you're the type of person who values your time, and you're also interested in learning more about how your childhood experiences have impacted who you have become as an adult, and if somebody that you care about shared this with you. I want you to view this episode as an invitation to not only better understand yourself and improve your life, but also an invitation to discuss what you learned with the person who sent this to you, because if you do, it's gonna bring you even closer to them, and that's pretty cool. And if your parents sent this to you, it is an invitation to talk about a topic that is really hard to talk about in families, and that's the impact that your parents had on you. Look, it's easy to give them the credit. It's easy to talk about all the good stuff that happened, but nobody wants to talk about the things that weren't so great, that hurt, that were really confusing. And so, I'm gonna come right out and I'm gonna go first and I'm gonna say, I used to be an emotionally immature parent, and it took me far too long to recognize that my emotional outbursts, my inability to manage my emotions or my stress, my mood swings, that it had a negative impact on my kids. Look, I wish I had had the knowledge that you're about to gain today when I was in my 20s, both for myself and my own happiness, my own healing, and for my ability to be a more mature person in relationships. So today, here's what we're gonna do. You and I are gonna go there. We're gonna talk about this topic with the help of a world-renowned expert by the name of Dr. Lindsay C. Gibson. Dr. Gibson is a clinical psychologist and New York Times best-selling author with over 30 years of experience helping adult children heal from emotionally immature parents. Her work is truly life-changing. Dr. Gibson has helped millions of people around the world break free from the invisible emotional suffering that has held them back since childhood. She earned her Doctorate of Clinical Psychology from the Virginia Consortium Program. Her best-selling book is called Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents. It has sold over a million copies, and after we dig into her incredible research and the tools that she's gonna share with you today, you're gonna understand why her work is so life-changing. So please help me welcome Dr. Gibson to The Mel Robbins Podcast.

   8. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson4:20

      Oh, thank you. It's a, it's a joy to be here, Mel, truly.

   9. MRMel Robbins4:23

      When we knew that you were coming on, I went onto our Instagram account, where we have 8.5 million followers, and I put up a poll: "Are your parents emotionally immature? Maybe your parent has big, intense reactions to things, like having outbursts, punishing you for having feelings, relying on you for adult emotional support, or maybe they're emotionally unavailable, never demonstrating affection and only offering criticism, prioritizing their needs over yours. Can you relate?" 91% of people said yes.

   10. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson5:01

       Wow.

   11. MRMel Robbins5:02

       91% said yes, "My parents are emotionally immature." They could relate to a parent that has massive, intense reactions to things or are completely unavailable, and does that surprise you?

   12. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson5:19

       It doesn't surprise me, uh, because it's one of the, the, the foremost reasons, I think, why people look for help and validation from, you know, from accounts and programs like yours, Mel, because they get so much validation from hearing somebody, you know, put into words things that they've been feeling that they've been told aren't really happening.

   13. MRMel Robbins5:45

       Hm.

   14. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson5:46

       And this doesn't have to escalate to the, to the degree of gaslighting. It just has to be that, you know, the emotionally immature person just doesn't see it. They don't perceive it that way, and so they can't validate the person.

   15. MRMel Robbins5:59

       Dr. Gibson, what does it mean to be emotionally mature?

   16. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson6:04

       They can think about their b- own behavior conceptually a-...they remain objective, and they can also think objectively and still maintain a strong emotional connection with other people. So you've got a person who can handle their emotions, connect with other people, and think objectively.

   17. MRMel Robbins6:30

       Oh, that just put a giant yellow highlighter (laughs) on what it then means to be emotionally immature. You can't think objectively, you can't really handle your emotions, and you disconnect from other people.

   18. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson6:43

       Yes.

   19. MRMel Robbins6:43

       Can you give

2. 6:44 – 15:29

   Real-Life Examples of Emotionally Immature Parenting

   1. MRMel Robbins6:44

      us a few examples of what emotional immaturity would look like, especially in a parent?

   2. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson6:49

      Sure. Uh, let's say that a teenage daughter goes to her mother because she's just, um, you know, had her boyfriend break up with her, and she's distraught and she's telling her mom about what happened. And the mother says, "I know exactly what you're talking about. Your father does that to me all the time." And then the mother derails the conversation because of her egocentrism, okay, because of her poor empathy, and makes it all about her, because there is that kind of childish, ravenous hunger for being the most important person in the relationship at the moment. They didn't get their needs met when they were little, for whatever reason, and now they're going to collect on their own children.

   3. MRMel Robbins7:41

      Can you give me another example?

   4. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson7:43

      Sure. Let's say that a, uh, a young man decides that he wants to go into writing or something in the creative arts, and maybe he has, you know, a lot of talent, but the parent hears this and it hits up against their goal that they have for what it would be to be a successful parent of a successful child, and that's something that they can't stand. And so, they might not come out and say that to the, to the young man, but they would, you know, make him start to feel bad about pursuing something that they didn't like, and they would start withholding approval for his, um, choices in order to get him on a path that would, again, align with their own egocentric view of, of who they want to be, which is the parent of a successful child, in their mind.

   5. MRMel Robbins8:42

      Is guilt trips around not being able to come home for the holidays or not being available to do something this weekend or not being available to drive you somewhere, is that an example of emotional immaturity too?

   6. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson8:54

      Oh, that's a, that's a great example, thank you. Yes, because it's using emotional coercion. It's using force on the other person to make them comply with something that they don't wanna do, and they have told you that, and you are disregarding their right, uh, to have their own needs or their own opinions and you're saying, in effect, "My needs are more important than yours, and you are being a bad person because you are morally obligated to give me what I want."

   7. MRMel Robbins9:31

      What about trashing other family members, like complaining to you about, you know, your siblings? You know, you're, you're, you're on the phone with one of your parents and they always have to bring up a criticism of somebody else in the family.

   8. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson9:43

      Great example, great example, because what that does is it creates a false sense of emotional intimacy when you triangle like that and you confide in somebody about a third party. That feels really good to the emotionally immature person, or the parent, because it's a way of kind of talking about deep stuff, but it's not intimate between you and the person you're talking to. It's sharing a secret about this third person. So it kind of hits a bunch of, um, uh, points simultaneously, but it's destructive to the relationship between, say, that child and that other family member, right?

   9. MRMel Robbins10:30

      Mm-hmm.

   10. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson10:30

       Because you're talking behind their back.

   11. MRMel Robbins10:31

       And it's uncomfortable.

   12. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson10:32

       And it's uncomfortable, right? You don't-

   13. MRMel Robbins10:34

       And then you don't know what to say-

   14. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson10:35

       Yeah.

   15. MRMel Robbins10:35

       ...'cause then they're gonna er- erupt and get all huffy if you-

   16. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson10:37

       They-

   17. MRMel Robbins10:37

       ...call 'em out on it.

   18. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson10:38

       Exactly. Or they might even say, uh, this is an example, um, uh, of a, of a woman who actually confronted her mother and said, you know, "Don't talk to me about Aunt So-and-so because it ruins my relationship with her. I can't be close to her after you've told me all these things that she's done."

   19. MRMel Robbins10:56

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

   20. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson10:56

       And the mother said, "I know that you've told me not to do this, but who else am I gonna talk to?" It's like, who cares? That's your problem.

   21. MRMel Robbins11:06

       "And so I'm just gonna keep on doing it."

   22. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson11:08

       "So I'm just gonna keep on doing it."

   23. MRMel Robbins11:09

       And, you know, that's one of the liberating things about your book, is you just keep coming back to this point, that the point isn't about shaming and blaming and all that stuff. It's about seeing the situation objectively and understanding this is who this person is, and expecting that this is gonna change magically on their own is setting you up for being frustrated in this dynamic. And recognizing that you're in the dynamic is actually what gives you power to change how you show up in it.

   24. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson11:35

       Yeah, exactly.

   25. MRMel Robbins11:36

       Could you tell the person who is with us right now what they could experience in their life that could be different if they really take to heart everything that you are about to share with us and teach to us today?

   26. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson11:51

       I really hope that when people listen to this, they'll come away from it feeling like, "Oh, I knew this all along. I just didn't know what to call it," or, "I, I knew I was right about that, but everybody was telling me that I was..."...off the mark, or crazy, or whatever. But this is what I experience. So, I, I hope that, um, that they will get that feeling of validation for their own experience, because we want people to be able to trust their own subjectivity-

   27. MRMel Robbins12:27

       Mm.

   28. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson12:27

       ...and their own inner life, uh, because that's one of the things that's taken away when you have an emotionally immature parent. You could live your life with a sense of trust for yourself as somebody who is worth being taken care of and protecting.

   29. MRMel Robbins12:45

       And what might change for the person listening about their relationship with their parents, as we start unpacking this topic of being raised by an emotionally immature person?

   30. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson12:59

       Yeah. It, it holds out the hope that you can be two adults together after all this time. You may not be able to change them, but you may be able to maintain your own sense of self and your own boundaries with them, adult to adult, in which both parties are, uh, just as important as the other. By doing this kind of work, um, within yourself, you have the option of creating a relationship after all this time where you can be you with your parent, and they can be allowed to deal with that themselves, which is the proper alignment of responsibility for emotional experience.
3. 15:29 – 18:38

   How Emotionally Immature Parents Affect You as a Child

   1. MRMel Robbins15:29

      guilt when we start to look at what we experienced in childhood and the emotional maturity of our parents?

   2. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson15:37

      Yeah. Well, part of the reason why we feel guilt is because we've been blamed, okay? (laughs)

   3. MRMel Robbins15:43

      (laughs)

   4. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson15:43

      That's pretty basic, but... (laughs)

   5. MRMel Robbins15:44

      Wait, what do you mean by that?

   6. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson15:46

      What I mean is that if you have been blamed a lot or someone has told you that what you're saying or what you're thinking is wrong or it's morally bad, you take on an exaggerated sense of guilt about your own self-expression, okay?

   7. MRMel Robbins16:05

      Mm.

   8. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson16:05

      And that, that is a profound impact on a person. And when somebody comes back and reflects to you that there's something wrong with you for having felt that, or having said that, and this is a person that you love and admire, that you look up to, your parent, you feel guilty because you don't want to hurt or embarrass somebody that you love, right? So, um, people have this sense of guilt, um, and it, it can really lean way too far over toward guilt and shame, the heavy self-criticism, because they've learned that that's the kind of feedback that they often get when they are just being themselves-

   9. MRMel Robbins16:52

      Right.

   10. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson16:53

       ...because emotionally immature people are very, very sensitive. Now, they will accuse you of being over-sensitive, and they will say, you know, "Why does this bother you? Why are you getting so upset?" But they are, like, the most emotionally sensitive people on this planet. Um, and when you get that kind of feedback, you begin to feel like, "Well, maybe there's something wrong." And you, so when you pick up on those things, that's the first thing that comes to my mind is, where did you learn to think like that, that your first go-to thought is, "I'm doing something wrong. I didn't, you know... Oh, it's my fault. I didn't notice soon enough, you know, that this was going to offend you," or, "I didn't, I wasn't sensitive enough to your needs, and now you're mad at me and not speaking to me for three days." But why does your mind go to, "What did I do?" like that. And one of the things that, that maintains that is they do this thing where you feel a moral obligation to give them what they want, even at great cost to yourself, even to the extent that it may harm your health or your mental health.I've seen this with so many of my clients.

   11. MRMel Robbins18:13

       So, what I would love to do is have you describe for a person who has never even considered or given themselves permission to look openly at their own childhood or their own parenting, uh, through the lens of emotional immaturity, and if you'd, uh, Dr. Gibson, if you could explain the traits associated

4. 18:38 – 25:36

   Traits of Emotionally Immature Parents

   1. MRMel Robbins18:38

      with emotional immaturity so that we can just highlight it, whether it is your parent or you're starting to have the courage to look at your own behavior. What is, what is the behavior that you see that are the hallmarks of emotional immaturity in a parent in particular?

   2. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson18:57

      Okay. Well, let's just start by saying overall, you might find them exhausting (laughs) . Dead giveaway (laughs) . Tiring, boring, um, because they, they tend to be quite superficial. They're very easily threatened. Um, their psychological defenses are not very sturdy, so they tend to keep things at a, at a kind of a superficial level as like, the how is the weather sort of thing, or you know, what is, uh, you know, Aunt so-and-so doing lately, because that's where they feel safe.

   3. MRMel Robbins19:37

      Mm.

   4. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson19:37

      Because emotional genuineness, emotional depth makes them very uneasy, and I'm not talking about a little bit nervous. I'm talking about destabilizing. You know, people keep trying to talk to their parent, um, and get them to understand how they're feeling. Well, this is like asking an emotionally immature parent to keep their hand on a hot stove. They cannot do it. It's not because they are bad or they don't want to help their child. It's because it is so painfully destabilizing that they can't stand it, okay? And that's something that I try to get across so that the person doesn't take it so personally.

   5. MRMel Robbins20:28

      Mm.

   6. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson20:29

      You know, that, that they, maybe they would if they could, but they can't, okay? They're gonna change the subject. They're gonna put it back on you. They're gonna give excuses. They're gonna not understand what the heck you're talking about. That difficulty in going into any kind of complexity or depth is something that ends up making people feel, you know, kind of bored, exhausted, and also because there's a constant expectation that you're going to be a certain way for them. So, you're gonna agree with them. You're going to, um, uh, see things the same way as they do, and that is very tiring because you're always feeling like you're having to play this role if you're gonna get along with them. All of this comes from their egocentrism, meaning all roads lead to them.

   7. MRMel Robbins21:25

      You have so many helpful quizzes in the book, and I wanna read some of them because I think that these questions, if you're somebody who's never considered this in yourself or in your parent or in your own experience, it's liberating to have somebody say, "Oh, no, no, no. Th- this is not behavior to excuse away. I realize you lived with it your entire childhood and your entire adult life with your parents, but this is not what you were supposed to get. You were supposed to be seen, and you're supposed to feel safe, and you're supposed to have your emotions validated." And some of the things on your list, this is an exercise on page 26 for assessing your parents' emotional immaturity. I want you to just listen to the work of Dr. Gibson. So here's a question. "My parents often overreacted to relatively minor things. My parents didn't express much empathy or emotional awareness. When it came to emotional closeness and feelings, my parents seemed uncomfortable. They didn't go there. My parent was irritated by differences or different points of view. When I was growing up, my parent would use me as a confidant, but wasn't a confidant for me. My parent often said and did things without thinking about people's feelings. I didn't get much attention or sympathy from my parent, except for maybe when I was sick. My parent was inconsistent. Sometimes wise, sometimes unreasonable. If they became upset, my parent either said something superficial or unhelpful or got angry and sarcastic. Conversations mostly centered on my parents' interests. Even polite disagreement could make my parent very defensive. It was deflating to tell my parent about my successes because it just didn't seem to matter. Facts and logic were no match for my parent's opinions. My parent wasn't self-reflective, rarely looked at his or her role in any problem, and my parent tended to be a black-and-white thinker and unreceptive to new ideas." And, you know, certainly as I read that list, I can see, check, check, check for myself. I think I was a very emotionally immature parent for a large part of my kids' life.

   8. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson23:38

      Mm-hmm.

   9. MRMel Robbins23:38

      And I can see the damage that it did. What do you want the person listening as they're sitting there going, "Oh, wow, never thought about it this way," what do you want the person who may be hearing this and feeling validated for the first time ever to know about the experience of being raised by an emotionally immature parent?

   10. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson24:02

       Yeah. I would want them to know that it's going to have an effect on them whether they've ever heard of this or not. Uh, because if we're treated like we are insignificant or that we're not real inside-We feel that. It's- it's like if somebody steps on your foot, you feel that. We do the same thing emotionally. When people, uh, disregard us or, um, treat us like we're not important, uh, that has an effect on us.

   11. MRMel Robbins24:36

       Mm-hmm.

   12. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson24:36

       And because, you know, such a huge amount of our learning is unconscious-

   13. MRMel Robbins24:41

       Mm-hmm.

   14. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson24:42

       ... in childhood, we carry it forward, um, and then we take it as, uh, you know, what we've learned and it's a part of us and we give it to our children.

   15. MRMel Robbins24:53

       One of the things that I found as I was reading your book and as the team here at one-four-three Studios and I were just poring over your work, is just how validating everything that you write is. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna read just a little bit more. "Emotionally immature parents can have devastating impacts on their children's self-esteem and relationships in adulthood. And while the effects can range from mild to severe, depending on the parents' level of immaturity, the net effect is the same. The children feel emotionally unseen and lonely, and this erodes their sense of their own lovability and can lead to excessive caution about emotional intimacy with other people." I think it would be very helpful to walk

5. 25:36 – 41:47

   The 4 Types of Emotionally Immature Parents

   1. MRMel Robbins25:36

      through the four types of emotionally immature parents because based on your research and your clinical practice, you have, uh, four very helpful buckets that help you see your parents objectively through the lens of these different buckets that emotionally immature parents can fall into, and I'll- I'll read them to you. This is on page 70 of your book. There are emotional parents who are run by their feelings, there are driven parents who are compulsively goal-oriented and super busy, there are passive parents who are just kinda checked out, and then there are rejecting parents that engage in behaviors that make you wonder why they have you in the family in the first place. And so, I'd love to have you unpack them one by one. What is the emotional parent that's run by their feelings? What is that parent like to be around?

   2. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson26:34

      Yeah. That- that's the parent that- that emotionally rules the roost with their moods, with their reactions. Everybody orbits them. Um, that's, uh, you know, when dad comes home, everybody be quiet, dad needs to relax. Um, mom's having a bad day, don't anybody upset her. Uh, mom's gone to bed for the week, uh, you know, nobody make any noise. Everything is geared toward helping that parent regulate their emotional state through controlling your behavior, suppressing yourself, inhibiting yourself. Everything ends up being in the service of helping that parent feel calmer or feel better. So, I call it the emotional parent because, you know, they tend to be very emotional and they can be, I mean, some of them can be extremely volatile, some of them can be violent. Uh, some of them can be even mentally ill, okay? But the emotional parent will make you feel like, you know, like, you gotta be vigilant. You gotta be checking every second, uh, how they're doing, taking- taking their temperature, so to speak. And the whole family does this. And often, the other parent colludes with this by being sort of the supporter and talking to the children as though it's the children's responsibility to make sure that mom or dad is staying calm.

   3. MRMel Robbins28:13

      Whose responsibility is it that mom or dad stay calm?

   4. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson28:16

      It's the emotional parent's responsibility. We all have the responsibility of managing our own emotions. That's how I look at it.

   5. MRMel Robbins28:25

      Same.

   6. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson28:26

      But lots of times, emotional parents, like, run right over their mate and end up with a, one of the passive parents that we'll talk about in a minute, uh, as someone who just doesn't protect the children from them.

   7. MRMel Robbins28:40

      How does being raised by this type of emotional immaturity in a parent, so you've got the erupter, you've got somebody whose mood dictates the house, how does that impact your development as the child and the types of patterns that you're struggling with in your adult relationships?

   8. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson28:59

      You become very vigilant to how the other person is doing, so everything revolves around the feeling state of the other person. Uh, you will be very alert (laughs) , very vigilant, very tired (laughs) because you're always having to guess at what could upset them. You're always having to kind of keep them on an even keel. And, you know, if you live with someone, you know how to do this. You know when they need a little boost, you need, you know when not to bring the thing up, uh, that you need to talk to them about. So, it- it- it has a, um, it really does flow downstream so that in your dating relationships or your- your committed relationships, you're gonna just assume that they need a lot of help dealing with their emotions, even if they don't.

   9. MRMel Robbins29:56

      Or you're probably gonna be hyperreading every mood and every action for cues as to whether or not they like you or you're okay or things are going okay.

   10. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson30:06

       Yes. Yes.

   11. MRMel Robbins30:06

       Like, that hyper vigilance and that sense that something is going wrong or could go wrong or that you're somehow gonna be to blame. Like, I think that i- it sounds like is something that gets conditioned into you.

   12. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson30:19

       Yes. And- and the- and the, um, you know, the feeling is, did I do something wrong?

   13. MRMel Robbins30:25

       Yes.

   14. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson30:25

       Or have I been bad?

   15. MRMel Robbins30:26

       Yes.

   16. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson30:27

       Okay? That, that is, um, that gets conditioned in there in a, in a very deep way with parents like that.

   17. MRMel Robbins30:36

       Talk to us about the driven parents.

   18. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson30:38

       Yeah, the driven parent is, in many ways, one of the most, um, uh, popular versions of, uh, parenthood at least l- at least in our driven culture, right? (laughs) You know, where things are so materialistic and so, uh, measured in terms of success, the metrics of success. These parents look like paragons of parenting, and we can compare ourselves to them because, "Oh my gosh, we didn't, we didn't get our kid onto the right softball team," or, "They're not on travel soccer," or, you know, "This other parent did the, you know, the intensive language thing, you know, in preschool that we missed." And they're very on it in terms of, "What can we do to maximize our potential in terms of success?"

   19. MRMel Robbins31:32

       Mm.

   20. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson31:32

       Not in terms of heart stuff, not in terms of creativity or what... It's like, "Where can it take us?" It's very goal-driven.

   21. MRMel Robbins31:42

       Wait. So you're talking about the kind of parent that is driving their kids to get into the Ivy League and driving their kids to get into the, you know, division this and the sports that and, like, we, 'cause you just said we.

   22. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson31:59

       Mm-hmm.

   23. MRMel Robbins31:59

       So, the driven isn't that they're climbing a la- the corporate ladder or just completely goal-oriented in their own life. It's that they're goal-oriented and driven in terms of micromanaging what their kids are doing because it's an extension of them?

   24. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson32:14

       Exactly. It's the extension of them. It's an enmeshment.

   25. MRMel Robbins32:17

       That's a sign of emotional immaturity?

   26. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson32:20

       It can be. We have to l- the, the proof is in the pudding. Like, how does that affect the kid? It, d- does it dovetail with the kid in such a way that everybody's happy? Um, but I submit that, uh, nobody likes being treated like, eh, an object or like somebody's success object. I mean, uh, or having expectations put on you for what y- where, where you need to measure up to in order for Mom or Dad to be really proud of you-

   27. MRMel Robbins32:50

       Mm-hmm.

   28. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson32:50

       ... or happy with you.

   29. MRMel Robbins32:51

       Mm-hmm.

   30. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson32:52

       But I do, I do wanna say one thing about this though. It's not only, uh, the kind of, eh, th- success that would be, like, intellectual success, monetary success. I mean, tho- those are, you know, like, winning, scoring the goal, uh, winning the game, that kinda thing. We're very familiar with that. But sometimes that drivenness can be channeled into things like, uh, your religious beliefs or your social behavior or being the, uh, quote-unquote normal family on the block. What will the neighbors say? I mean, it doesn't have to be, um, when I say driven, a lot of these parents do do things, like they get, you know, like advanced degrees or they are on their kids about getting into, you know, certain colleges. But they can also be on their children about sort of perfecting their social role or their place in the church or, you know, it could be anything. It just has that quality of driving toward a goal.
6. 41:47 – 56:42

   Communication Challenges with Emotionally Immature Parents

   1. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson41:47

      the problem is not your problem with communication. It's their problem with being willing to process what you're telling them. If a person really wants to understand you, it doesn't matter how you say it. And if somebody doesn't wanna understand you, it doesn't matter how you say it. So, people get a very distorted idea about whether they make sense or not. They feel like they don't make sense because the emotionally immature person is not invested in trying to understand them. They're invested in getting off the hot seat as quickly as possible.

   2. MRMel Robbins42:34

      Which is why they erupt or they dismiss.

   3. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson42:37

      Yes.

   4. MRMel Robbins42:37

      Or they get, like, defensive, or they-...put it back on you, or, "I don't wanna talk about it."

   5. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson42:44

      Right.

   6. MRMel Robbins42:44

      And then that trains you to, like, walk on eggshells and use a different tone of voice and worry about whether or not this is the right time or kind of couch it in a certain way in order to manage somebody's emotional immaturity, and that just leaves you feeling like you're the problem.

   7. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson43:02

      Exactly, and you also, uh, identify the wrong problem. You think that you need to learn better communication skills. Uh, that's not the problem because of what I just said. If someone wants to understand you, they will knock themselves out trying to understand you.

   8. MRMel Robbins43:21

      So, is the problem that your work helps us highlight is recognizing when you're dealing with somebody who's emotionally immature?

   9. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson43:30

      Yes. And one of the most telltale, uh, qualities of that is when you experience what a, what a, um, a colleague of mine, uh, Jenny Walters, she's a, a coach out in the West Coast, calls brain scramble. So, you get around people who are emotionally immature, and you're trying to explain yourself or you're trying to communicate, and all of a sudden, it's like, "I don't feel like I'm making any sense. I don't... I can't find the right words. I start to say it, and then I can't remember what I was gonna say." It... Brain scramble. Because when we're talking, the other person's responsiveness actually helps our brain organize itself and stay on a track of thought because communication is not only intellectual and verbal, it's emotional. The whole time we're talking, right, our hearts are going, "Mm, is there a connection there?" Our right hemisphere of our brain is saying, "Is there resonance? Are we on the same wavelength?" That, that's being assessed the whole time we're yammering away with our words. If that's not there, it is an incredibly unsafe experience. You're getting a contradictory signal. They're looking at you, they appear to be listening, but they're not processing it, and then it's like, whoa, the mismatch really pulls you off your, off your game. You, really pulls you away from the point that you're trying to make. And then it's like you can't remember even what you're trying to do.

   10. MRMel Robbins45:10

       I actually love that you just said mismatch, and I love this brain scramble because I feel like one of the most important things about your work is giving words to a extraordinarily common experience. If 91% of people, of 8.5 million followers that we polled, asked, you know, or, "Were you raised by somebody who was emotionally immature?" You'll say, "Yes, this rings true," that experience of I'm trying to connect and communicate with you, and then all of a sudden, the person's mood shifts, or their body language turns hostile, or their facial expression just looks blank and rejecting, there is a complete mismatch, and you do start to scramble in your mind because the signaling from the other person is very clearly, "Shut up. I'm not interested. You're annoying me. I don't care about this." And you can pick up on it immediately.

   11. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson46:04

       Absolutely.

   12. MRMel Robbins46:05

       And it is true. You start to think, "I'm the problem." And I love that you just said, "No, no, no, no, that's the wrong problem." It's not how you're communicating. It's that you're trying to communicate with somebody who is either too emotionally immature to be able to communicate like a mature person, or that has no interest in communicating with you, and that's an important thing to understand because from the very beginning, you've been saying, "This isn't about blaming anybody." It's about seeing the situation objectively so you can change how you show up in this relationship and what you expect of this person. Because I think, you know, if I'm speaking from my own experience, whether it's the child-parent relationship, or it's me as a parent to my child and being able to look and see at how my own emotional immaturity, being overly emotional, big erupter. I'm sure my kids would tell you that they never knew what kinda mood I was gonna be in when I woke up. My husband, definitely. We are the classic, "I'm the emotional one. He's the passive one." You know, I'm the one that is probably a little bit scarier, or at least I used to be until I started working on myself and developing the skill of emotional maturity, but I think as kids, you think (laughs) that there's something you can do to change this, and the fact is, n- you can't make somebody else emotionally mature. A person has to do that for themselves, and they have to want to because it's actually work to f- to want to learn about your emotions and learn how to process them, and I found a part of your book so fascinating, Dr. Gibson. It's on page 84. You talk all about this thing called healing fantasies-

   13. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson47:50

       Mm-hmm.

   14. MRMel Robbins47:50

       ...and how these healing fantasies that we have about our parents, in particular, that you've noticed that one thing that all children who have been raised by emotionally immature parents, which, you know, you also say that means they've been emotionally deprived children, one thing they have in common is they come up with a fantasy about how they are going to eventually get what they need. And as you're listening to Dr. Gibson, this might absolutely just hit you like a sledgehammer, that children often think the cure for their childhood pain and emotional loneliness lies in finding a way to change themselves and other people into something other than who they really are. Healing fantasies have one theme, if only.People may think they'd be loved if only they were more selfless or more attractive, or they may think that their life would be healed if only they became more famous or rich, that there are all these things we make up in our mind that help us get through these situations where we're not getting our needs met, but the problem is they affect us as adults. So, Dr. Gibson, can you unpack what a healing fantasy is?

   15. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson49:08

       It's the idea that the parent does change, and does develop empathy, and does stop sort of distorting and dismissing realities that they don't like-

   16. MRMel Robbins49:20

       Mm.

   17. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson49:21

       ... and starts to be willing to listen to how it- it- it has been for the child. The fantasy is that the parent will be capable of doing that at some point, you know, maybe when they get older, maybe when they don't have so much stress, um, "Maybe when I have children, as grandma, they will do this," or, you know, whatever. And so, we might say, "Well, you know, where do they get this from?" Like, "Why- what would make them think that?" Well, it's because sometimes emotionally immature parents can do better and do do better. They can be fun. They can be loving. They can be available. They're especially good if you're hurt, sick, need something, you know, some material thing. Um, they can be really Johnny on the spot with that stuff, but it's the emotional, um, comforting and the emotional validation that they have trouble with.

   18. MRMel Robbins50:20

       Well, the way that I look at it is this way, and tell me if this feels like a good way to think about it, because I think it's very confronting when you start to look at your parents objectively, and you feel bad, and you feel a lot of grief, and it's also very validating to be able to see behavior that was a complete mismatch for what you needed and to understand that oftentimes, you know, according to your work, Dr. Gibson, that the immature- the emotionally immature person does not even realize that this is what they're doing and this is the impact it's having on you. The more work I've done on myself, the more that I realize this isn't about always being emotionally mature, because there are gonna be times where you're exhausted and life is testing you or your child is, frankly, so fricking trying and annoying and taxing that you're gonna freaking scream at them. Like, "Just do what I'm saying." (laughs) It's the ability to calm yourself down and repair what just happened-

   19. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson51:22

       Right.

   20. MRMel Robbins51:22

       ... that, in my mind, is the sign of an emotionally mature person, the awareness that the eruption happened or the withdraw happened or the dismissing happened or you didn't show up in a way that maybe was as supportive as you would've liked, and to be able to talk about it in a way where you can take ownership for your side of it and actually be genuinely interested in making sure the other person's okay and that that relationship and that safety's repaired. That, to me, is the thing that feels like the hallmark of somebody who's emotionally mature versus somebody who's not.

   21. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson52:03

       Yes, because you've got the self-reflection going on.

   22. MRMel Robbins52:07

       Yes.

   23. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson52:07

       You- you have the- the em- and you have the empathy going on, because, you know, when we lose our cool or we- we have, um, you know, been too egocentric with our kids or whatever it is, it hurts us. We realize it almost immediately. We feel that altruistic need to go back in and repair it.

   24. MRMel Robbins52:29

       Mm.

   25. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson52:30

       And that's- I mean, that is a, uh, huge part of being adequately emotionally mature.

   26. MRMel Robbins52:38

       You know, I think that there's a lot of people that are gonna s- listen to this and actually share this with their adult children as a way to open up a conversation-

   27. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson52:45

       Mm-hmm.

   28. MRMel Robbins52:46

       ... about apologizing, because-

   29. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson52:48

       Mm-hmm.

   30. MRMel Robbins52:48

       ... as blunt as I am about the things that I regret and as much as I can own the fact that when I was a young parent and my kids were younger, I was emotionally immature and very overwhelmed by my life and very overwhelmed by past issues of trauma that I had never dealt with and things just going on in my life that I took out on them that they didn't deserve. And I can speak very black and white about it, but I would give anything to go back in time and to change the parent that I was and be better for them. But being able to apologize and to see it in myself has been this enormous gift in my relationship with my kids and bringing us even closer in our relationship. And so, I don't think it's ever too late to apologize for the things that you didn't know about yourself, and I would imagine you have much more experience with this than me, that I would think a lot of people are very receptive to that apology if it's coming from a very earnest place and you're also working on changing how you show up now.
7. 56:42 – 1:00:30

   Grieving and Accepting Growing Up with Emotionally Immature Parents

   1. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson56:42

      of their self-empathy. They've been trained not to take seriously how they feel or how they react. Once we notice the reality of what has happened to us, the grief will help solidify this new understanding or this new reality of what we grew up in, which will give us a solid sense of, um, uh, security. Okay? 'Cause now we got something to put our feet on. We understand that. And the grief comes in when we realize what that did to us-

   2. MRMel Robbins57:18

      Mm.

   3. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson57:19

      What that did to the child we were, and how impossible it was for us to understand why this was happening, other than to blame ourselves. And that, that understanding is poignant. It, um, it tugs at your heartstrings to realize that, you know, this little kid that you were was stuck in this situation. None of us likes to feel that we're stuck or that we were out of control or that, even that something bad happened to us. It's amazing to me that one of the, you know, predominant reactions to trauma is shame.

   4. MRMel Robbins58:01

      Mm.

   5. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson58:02

      Uh, it just seems to go with it. You, you don't have to have somebody even actively shaming you about it. It's almost as though if this bad thing happened to me, somehow that means something bad about who I am. And don't, don't ask me how (laughs) or why that is, but it seems to be the human condition. So, when you feel the grief about it, it's like acknowledging the shame, the pain, uh, that you got, um, some, uh, you got the short end of the stick, you didn't get what you need. All of those things in the unconscious psyche tend to equate with, "I didn't deserve it," or, or something along those lines. So it's often hard for us to get to the grief, because we have to pass through the shame that it happened-

   6. MRMel Robbins58:59

      Mm-hmm.

   7. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson59:00

      ... to us in the first place.

   8. MRMel Robbins59:02

      How can you maintain (laughs) a relationship with a parent who is emotionally immature without getting drained?

   9. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson59:12

      I'm not entirely sure that's possible (laughs) . The drained part (laughs) . Not, not, not the, not the having a relationship part.

   10. MRMel Robbins59:19

       Well, say more about that.

   11. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson59:20

       Yeah.

   12. MRMel Robbins59:20

       I, I appreciate you saying that.

   13. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson59:21

       Yeah, because I think they're tiring. Um, and I think that they're often emotionally exhausting. So we have to realize that, um, that's gonna be their experience and to not expect it to be any better than that. So one of the things that we wanna do in therapy, for instance, is we wanna lower people's expectations.

   14. MRMel Robbins59:45

       (laughs) That sounds so-

   15. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson59:46

       (laughs)

   16. MRMel Robbins59:46

       ... depressing, but I agree.

   17. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson59:48

       Yep. Um, it may be depressing, but it, it, it's reality, um-

   18. MRMel Robbins59:52

       Well, 'cause you're living in a fantasy. If you've, if you've known somebody your whole life, and they're basically checking every box on Dr. Gibson's list here, and you recognize that you're dealing with somebody who is emotionally immature, then you live in a fantasy world if you actually expect them to magically change. And so lowering expectations, Dr. Gibson, basically just means accepting reality.

   19. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson1:00:20

       Y- yes, and it, and it also takes the onus off of you for being able to somehow change this reality-

   20. MRMel Robbins1:00:28

       Mm.

   21. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson1:00:29

       ... that you

8. 1:00:30 – 1:11:12

   Maintaining Relationships with Emotionally Immature Parents

   1. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson1:00:30

      should be... You know, if you find the right communication style, if you find the right approach. Uh, but really what I encourage people to do is, if you, if you're going to have contact with the emotionally immature person, try to be, try to go into it aware-... try to stay objective, pretend you're an anthropologist and you're there to investigate this, you know, this, uh, new tribe of people and how they conduct themselves and whatever. So, you get your intellect in the foreground and you try to stay objective in a way that keeps you from being sucked in emotionally into what I call the emotionally, um, immature relationship system, which is, the deal is, you are responsible for my emotional stability and for my self-esteem. Okay? That's the deal. If you go in aware that that's what you're dealing with and that's what's going to happen, you have a chance of avoiding it.

   2. MRMel Robbins1:01:34

      What are tools that you can use when you recognize this? Do not get sucked into that.

   3. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson1:01:40

      Yeah. I- I suggest a- a little mantra-

   4. MRMel Robbins1:01:43

      Okay.

   5. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson1:01:44

      ... which is detach, detach, detach.

   6. MRMel Robbins1:01:46

      (laughs)

   7. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson1:01:47

      (laughs) I mean, every time you get the urge to explain yourself further or, "Maybe this is the time that, you know, Dad will listen to my political views," or whatever, just like, detach, detach, detach, because that's where your power is, is in how you're going to s- like out of your book, you know-

   8. MRMel Robbins1:02:09

      Let them.

   9. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson1:02:09

      Yes, exactly, is- is how you're going to behave or how you're going to approach the situation. That is your point of power because there's no way that you're gonna find this secret method of turning an emotionally immature person into someone who cares what you think, okay, or cares how you feel. So, I suggest that technique and the anthropologist fantasy. Also, to stay very connected to yourself, and by that I mean, we tend to dissociate when we're with difficult people. We just kinda zone out, you know? Because it's too hard. Um, so, when I tell people to, you know, maintain their self-connection, it's like, keep up a running dialogue with yourself, keep up a- an active commentary. Um, rub your arm, uh, cross your arms, squeeze yourself, something to bring you back into your body so that you exist just as surely as they do, because you will feel erased, okay, when you get pulled too far into their orbit. The other thing is to find the optimal distance for visits or social contact that allows you to stay in yourself.

   10. MRMel Robbins1:03:38

       Mm. Like a two-day rule or a-

   11. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson1:03:41

       Yes, uh-

   12. MRMel Robbins1:03:41

       ... no overnights or-

   13. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson1:03:43

       Exactly.

   14. MRMel Robbins1:03:44

       Got it.

   15. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson1:03:44

       I mean, when you go back-

   16. MRMel Robbins1:03:45

       Neutral territory.

   17. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson1:03:46

       Yes. When you go back into your parents' home, I'm sorry, you've just stepped into a time machine, okay? And you're going back to your childhood self whether you want to or not. So, (laughs) we have to be aware of that susceptibility, that vulnerability-

   18. MRMel Robbins1:04:03

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

   19. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson1:04:03

       ... and create for ourselves a s- a- a set of boundaries or circumstances that we are willing to engage in because we know we can stay in touch with ourselves.

   20. MRMel Robbins1:04:16

       If somebody was would love to take this conversation and start becoming more emotionally mature, what is one thing that you would want for them to do?

   21. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson1:04:28

       I'm a- a big advocate for, uh, journaling.

   22. MRMel Robbins1:04:32

       Mm-hmm.

   23. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson1:04:32

       Now, that's, you know, an introverted solution. (laughs)

   24. MRMel Robbins1:04:36

       It's okay. It's free. That's why I like it.

   25. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson1:04:38

       It's, it's free.

   26. MRMel Robbins1:04:38

       So, is there a prompt that you would give to the person listening?

   27. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson1:04:42

       Yeah. What do I wish I hadn't done today?

   28. MRMel Robbins1:04:45

       Oh, I love that.

   29. LGDr. Lindsay C. Gibson1:04:47

       Yeah. What do I wish I... If I had a do-over, what would I change? Y- now, you don't have to know what the preferable behavior is yet, okay, 'cause not all of us know what that is, but we do have a little thing, a little bell that rings inside when we do or say something to someone that we love that really matters to us that is off or wrong or hurtful to that person. That is there, um, so, if we ask ourself that simple question, "What do I wish I hadn't done today?" And then we think about, "What could I do next that would make that slightly better?"

   30. MRMel Robbins1:05:32

       Hmm.

Episode duration: 1:11:12