EVERY SPOKEN WORD
90 min read · 18,008 words- 0:00 – 1:28
Meet the Guest
- MRMel Robbins
Let's talk about failure.
- MRMark Rober
If you are not failing, that's a problem, right? Like, you need to be testing the limits to understand, like, if you're being so concerned around everything, you have no idea how much bigger and cooler this thing could be.
- MRMel Robbins
I gotta be honest with you, I'm not excited about failing, Mark.
- MRMark Rober
(laughs) I think we overestimate the negative impact on failure and underestimate our ability to handle it. This framework really does help. I call this the Super Mario Effect. But I have not really talked about this publicly, Mel, but can I give you a, a big bombshell here?
- MRMel Robbins
Sure.
- MRMark Rober
We're doing this thing, we're taking... It's gonna cost about $55 million to make, and then we're gonna make it free for all teachers.
- MRMel Robbins
Are you kidding me?
- MRMark Rober
I just feel like teachers... specifically, it's like, it's like such a, it's the most, I think, important profession and perhaps the most underappreciated or under-supported profession. So it's kinda like, "Hey, reinforcements are on the way. We got you."
- MRMel Robbins
Why does this bring up so much for you?
- MRMark Rober
You know, I, myself am product of great teachers. My mom, um, she, she, like, passed away, like, six months before I even made my first YouTube video. Regardless of what you believe about what happens when we die, I think we can all agree a successful life is one where you leave the world a better place than you found it.
- 1:28 – 6:54
The Framework That Makes Failure Exciting
- MRMel Robbins
Mark Rober in the house.
- MRMark Rober
I'm so excited to be here.
- MRMel Robbins
I am so excited to be here too.
- MRMark Rober
You're, you're like one of my heroes, like, you know, on like the digital front of like, I feel like we're kind of had similar stories, so I feel like I'm in the room with like a hero that's very relatable to me.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, I feel the same. And you've made a huge impact in a lot of my, uh, family members' lives. My nephew, my son is a monster fan.
- MRMark Rober
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
I would not let him, like, skip college for the day to come and meet you.
- MRMark Rober
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
I'm a mean mom. But I would love to start, Mark, by having you tell me, how could my life be different if I take everything to heart that you're about to share and teach us today about failure, about creativity, about really being true to yourself and knowing who you are at heart and I apply it to my life?
- MRMark Rober
Yeah, I think something that's helped me a lot in life is, like, valuable frameworks, especially when looking at challenges and when looking at failure. Like, viewing failure in a way that it, it's, doesn't mean you are a failure, but you can... It almost flips it where it's exciting. And, like that, approach to problems and challenges, seeing them as like exciting opportunities really is a framework thing that, that I've found has just been a, an incredible help in my life.
- MRMel Robbins
I personally love frameworks because it feels then like the things I need to do feel a little less arduous and it doesn't feel like the things I screwed up are so personal.
- MRMark Rober
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
And I love the idea that you have a framework to help make better decisions.
- MRMark Rober
My favorite feeling, truly, is when that aha moment when you, like, learn something new and you, you have a new framework and it allows you to kind of see the world. We've all read a book or listened to a podcast that sticks with you-
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- MRMark Rober
... and then changes. Heck, the book Let Them, right?
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- MRMark Rober
Is this for so many people.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- MRMark Rober
And I love that moment so much. The only thing I love more is giving that to someone else. I love to be that conduit.
- MRMel Robbins
H- how do you describe what you do? You know what I mean? For somebody who may be listening right now or watching right now and they're like, "I love this guy. Who's this guy? What's this guy do? Tell me more about this guy." How would you describe what you do?
- MRMark Rober
Yeah. So, you know, I'm, I'm a mechanical engineer. I got, my bachelor's and master's in mechanical engineering. I worked at NASA for a decade working on the Curiosity rover.
- MRMel Robbins
Wait, the thing that went to Mars?
- MRMark Rober
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Wait, w- what did you do with that?
- MRMark Rober
I was, uh, I worked on the jet pack that lowers you to the ground, and then some hardware on the top deck of the rover. So the arm digs in the dirt, dumps it into the belly of the rover, and my hardware, like, accepted the sample.
- MRMel Robbins
That's so cool.
- MRMark Rober
And it's still working to this day, so fingers crossed. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
Wow. Okay, so you worked at NASA.
- MRMark Rober
Yeah.
- 6:54 – 18:43
Mark’s Secret to Teaching Through Storytelling
- MRMark Rober
reactions.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow.
- MRMark Rober
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
So, you have 71 million subscribers on YouTube. Why do you think these experiments that you elaborately orchestrate, why do you think they connect so deeply, not just with kids, but with people of all ages and backgrounds around the world?
- MRMark Rober
You just have to evoke a visceral response. In other words, it has to make them laugh, they have to, you know, feel excited. They just have to feel something, right? I- for something to be remarkable, it has to be- you have to be able to be remarked about.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- MRMark Rober
And so, you don't fini- you don't share a video you don't finish watching, so if you could just make them feel something, then they are way more likely to actually take action and share it, and I think this is applicable in people's lives. If you want, you know, a lot of times we just wanna focus on the facts. Like, well, the facts are on my side so I'm just going to state the facts. But if you don't emotionally connect with someone, maybe you want to pitch something to your boss, like, th- this big idea, right? Maybe you, um, you want to apologize to your partner or your kid. Like, if you- if the emotion's not there, it doesn't cause that shift in the heart, and we survived long before written to tell stories to each other, and so it's in our DNA to resonate with stories.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- MRMark Rober
And, like, and I think this is very applicable for people's lives, of just, like, leaning into the story and the emotion of a thing j- just for interpersonal relationships. Like, your apologies will be accepted faster-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MRMark Rober
... and more earnestly. You will find that you can, you know, pitch, pitch ideas to coworkers, even just, like, "Where are we going to eat?" Right? You're more influential if you can remember that we are hardwired to tell stories.
- MRMel Robbins
So if you don't think you're a good storyteller, or you're, like, a really shy person, is there any advice that you have about how you can use this framework of thinking about the emotion? Or I love that thing that you said, to be remarkable, you have to have people remark about you.
- MRMark Rober
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And telling somebody a story or moving them emotionally or getting them excited about something is what makes people remark about you.
- MRMark Rober
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
So how could somebody think about storytelling as a tool to use to prepare for anything, whether it's a date or it's a job interview or it's having a hard conversation or it's trying to go viral making your next video?
- MRMark Rober
The biggest downside, especially as an engineer, uh, I get this, is, like, is to focus on the facts. Let's say you're selling a thing, it's like, "Well, you know, my processor has 20% more gigahertz." People don't care. It's just a spec sheet, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Yep.
- MRMark Rober
They wanna know how this will make them feel.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- MRMark Rober
So I think part of it is, like, empathizing with the other person you're talking to and putting yourself in their shoes and understanding, from their perspective, what would feel meaningful to them.
- MRMel Robbins
Hm. You only do one video a month.
- MRMark Rober
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
When you are sitting down to think of the idea, are there particular, like, checkboxes that you go through? Because one of them has to be, what emotion are we evoking, what story are we telling? Like, is there a framework you use that helps you architect the type of experiment that you're gonna do or how you're using kind of this, "How do I evoke something, how do I engineer a story that creates emotion for people?"
- MRMark Rober
Mm-hmm. W- what I do is I like to say, like, hide the vegetables. So e-
- MRMel Robbins
What does that mean? Oh, you mean, like, blend them? What are you talking about?
- MRMark Rober
No, no, no. Yes. I'll say. So, well, at the end of the day, my goal is to reach as many brains as possible with a story of, like, learning how to think critically, to be curious, to embrace failure, thinking like an engineer even if you're not an engineer, right? Like, that is my North Star. So the way I do that is hiding the vegetables. So I might have a video that's, like, a 15-ton Jell-O pool, which is very hard to do, by the way, Mel.
- MRMel Robbins
15-ton Jell-O pool?
- MRMark Rober
That's right.
- MRMel Robbins
Is that, like, a swimming pool full of Jell-O?
- 18:43 – 26:36
Why Creative People Learn to Love Failure
- MRMark Rober
- MRMel Robbins
I, I wanna pause on this, because I think you actually just shared a story that has the absolute secret to success in it. And that is that if you focus on something that is truly tied to something you deeply care about-
- MRMark Rober
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... and you are also focused on the impact that it can have on somebody else, right?
- MRMark Rober
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And so you talked about evoking emotion and setting up a story. We're all like, "Oh, world's biggest Jell-O thing, this is cool," but you're hiding the vegetables in it. So, you've become a master at the craft of teaching science, but you have never lost focus on the one lesson in front of you.
- MRMark Rober
Mm.
- MRMel Robbins
The one rock, as you say. And that's the secret, because the second you pick your head up and go, "Two billion views-"
- MRMark Rober
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
"... and this, that, and the other thing-"
- MRMark Rober
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... you're now no longer looking at the actual thing that you loved doing.
- MRMark Rober
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
You're looking at the wrong data.
- MRMark Rober
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Let's talk about failure-
- MRMark Rober
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... because you've built your career on experiments.
- MRMark Rober
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And at the very beginning, you said that there is a framework-
- MRMark Rober
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... that you could teach us about failing-
- MRMark Rober
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... and getting excited about failing. And I gotta be honest with you, I'm not excited about failing, Mark.
- MRMark Rober
(laughs) Y- yeah. So, I think what I've found over time is like, you know, it had started... Uh, the first time I noticed this, I was trying to make a, a dart board where you get a bullseye every time, where you could throw a dart, it would track the dart through the air, it would predict where it would land, and then it would move the dart board in 400 milliseconds.
- MRMel Robbins
No way.
- MRMark Rober
That's less than, uh, a blink of an eye.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow.
- MRMark Rober
And that video took me three years to build that. And there were a lot of setbacks, Mel. There was a lot of moments where it's like, "Oh, we thought this would work, but it doesn't." And what I realized is, like, at no part in any of that was I like, "I'm a failure. This is the worst. I wanna give up." It's almost like with each setback, I was more and more determined. I learned one more way not to do it.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- 26:36 – 29:18
How to Get Over Your Fear of Failure
- MRMark Rober
thing.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, one of the things that I would love to have you speak to, for the person who's listening or watching who's scared to try something new because they don't wanna mess up, they don't wanna look cringy, you know, they're worried about what their friends are gonna think, like, what is your message to somebody who's, like, on that precipice, knowing they wanna grow and change, but are actively talking themselves out of it?
- MRMark Rober
I would say start small and make your goal to fail.
- MRMel Robbins
What do you mean make your goal to fail?
- MRMark Rober
I just, I just went through this myself, Mel, where it's like, I have, I like to play chess occasionally, and I found, like, I wasn't playing chess because I felt like if I lost, that somehow I would internalize it, something about me. This is like playing online. And I'm like, "What am I doing?" So, I made a goal that, "I wanna lose 10 games."
- MRMel Robbins
What? I love this.
- MRMark Rober
This was my goal.
- MRMel Robbins
Do you know I'm starting to learn chess?
- MRMark Rober
Oh, really?
- MRMel Robbins
And I feel really stupid. And so I played once with Oakley. He smashed me.
- MRMark Rober
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And then I'm like, "Okay, I, like, I don't wanna play with anybody else 'cause I don't wanna look d-" So, it's your goal to lose 10 times in a row?
- MRMark Rober
10 time- y- or just 10 times, like, in a, like, that's... It doesn't necessarily need to be in a row, but just like, "Hey, I'm gonna play these games, and like, I, I check a box. I win when I fail this many times." And that just resets everything, right? And it totally worked for me (laughs) 'cause now I, and then I exposed myself to losing more, and now I don't even think about it. And I love, I don't internalize it as a negative thing, and now I'm enjoying and playing way more chess. So like, if you're nervous about speaking up at work, you know, if you're, maybe it's public speaking, um, maybe it's-
- MRMel Robbins
Dating. An interview. It could be-
- MRMark Rober
Dating, an interview. Maybe you love to draw and you wanna make a YouTube video talking about it. Just make your goal, let's say for the YouTube case, just to make 10 videos. Don't think anything about views. Don't think anything about any sort of metrics. Your goal-
- MRMel Robbins
Go for zero views?
- MRMark Rober
Yeah, go for zero views (laughs) , right? Like, your W is just getting it up and starting to flex that muscle, and it's just like anything in life. It's exposure therapy. And the more you're, you're exposed to it, the better you get. You build those muscles, right? It's just like training in a gym. Those g- those muscles get stronger, you get more adapted to it, and then you look back at where you were a year ago, and you're like, "Oh, man, I can't believe I was ever worried about this."
- MRMel Robbins
Well, here's what's genius about that, Mark, is that I think there's a lot of talk about how failure should be the thing we go for, but what you just did with that framework is you said, "No, the goal is to fail."
- MRMark Rober
Yeah. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
I love that fra- it's so subtle, but it's a really genius way to do it.
- MRMark Rober
Just get the pressure off yourself, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- MRMark Rober
And, and understand that will happen, and don't try and avoid that
- 29:18 – 35:23
How to Make Science Actually Fun
- MRMark Rober
thing.
- MRMel Robbins
So, Mark, one of the things that is just your genius is that you make science and learning and failing so fun, and humor and silliness is kinda part of the formula.
- MRMark Rober
Sure.
- MRMel Robbins
I know that you brought something to show us, too.
- MRMark Rober
Oh, yeah. So here's an example of just a very simple demo. I'll, I'll pull up. It's down-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay. So he's reaching down right now, if you're not watching on YouTube, but you're probably gonna wanna w- watch this on YouTube at some point. You've got a, oh, you got a hair dryer.
- MRMark Rober
Yes, this is a simple hair dryer you'd have at home, and just... A ping pong ball.
- MRMel Robbins
Ping pong. Yeah, okay.
- MRMark Rober
Okay? So what I'm gonna do, Mel, I'm gonna turn this on (hair dryer blowing) and the ping pong ball is levitating in this hair dryer, but even as you twist it left and right, it, like-
- MRMel Robbins
(gasps) .
- MRMark Rober
... magically stays in the airflow, right? So this is a principle called the Coanda effect. Essentially what's happening is it's creating, like, a little low pressure bubble-
- MRMel Robbins
'Kay.
- MRMark Rober
... for the ball to float in. That's why even at a side angle like this, it's still floating. This is what the principle behind what makes curveballs curve in baseball.... it's, like, the same kind of principle of, like, air flowing around the side to create little bubbles-
- MRMel Robbins
Oh.
- MRMark Rober
... that move the ball.
- MRMel Robbins
'Cause, 'cause, 'cause the air is coming straight up and out of the hair dryer.
- MRMark Rober
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
But when it hits the mass of the ball, it goes up on the sides of it. So it's almost like cupping it with the fluid-
- MRMark Rober
That's right.
- MRMel Robbins
... that is air.
- MRMark Rober
Exactly.
- MRMel Robbins
I'm learning.
- MRMark Rober
That's exactly it. Now, wow, you explained that so well. But what's so great, like, that's, like, such a simple demo of, like, Harry Potter levitation, right? I mean, you literally, look. You know, like a wizard just, like-
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- MRMark Rober
... hovering this thing. And it's just, this is junk you have lying around your house. So it's, like, a demo that explains it that's really cool, that's very approachable, right? This isn't, this isn't some fancy scientific instrument. It's a-
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- MRMark Rober
... ping pong ball and a hair dryer.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- MRMark Rober
Here's another one that I think will work well on a podcast.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- 35:23 – 46:41
Engineering a More Fulfilling Life
- MRMark Rober
- MRMel Robbins
When we first sat down, you talked about frameworks for understanding yourself and what you value-
- MRMark Rober
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... and for really being happier, authentically happier. What, what have you learned about happiness?
- MRMark Rober
So in engineering, we call it first principles approach. Like, if you're trying to go to Mars, start from a very first principle. What are the basic fundamentals that you need to know? How much energy do you need to get there? Like, what are just basic building blocks? And I think for happiness, there's some basic building blocks that intuitively I've really tried to maintain as life has gotten crazier, and that comes down to, like, relationships and, like, living according to what my personal values are.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- MRMark Rober
Right? Um, being value-driven and, like, having a goal of, what is my impact in this world and what is the reason I'm here? So, like, being motivated intrinsically by, like, those types of things and not letting all this other stuff be a distraction. I think a lot of people have to buy the fancy things to realize, like, "Oh-"... that wasn't what actually brings happiness. And I have this, you know, MrBeast is a buddy of mine, he's another YouTuber, and him and I have this debate a lot. His thing is like, "Oh, you can either be really successful or you can be happy."
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- MRMark Rober
Like, you can't, you can't (laughs) be both. And there's many decisions I've made that sort of would have helped me have more reach, or would have meant that I could have more money or have more whatever, but I don't wanna just have this flash in the pan and go really hard and just totally burn out. If you do that, then you spike back down to nothing.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MRMark Rober
But if you just sort of build one step at a time, happiness is found by just, like, incremental level ups.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- MRMark Rober
Just little hits of dopamine, right? Of just like, "Oh, I got a little bit better. Oh, I got a little bit better." And I think in life, like, I've really tried to, like... You know, we could have 500 employees and have all this venture capital and do all this stuff, but, like, I've pushed against all that and I'm just like, I just, if I wanna reach as many brains as possible, the wi- right way to do it is just, we're just, little by little, we're gonna creep up to this thing. And as a result, like, I have never gotten burnt out on YouTube, and I would say, like, I'm more stoked now than I have been in 15 years.
- MRMel Robbins
I think the way that I would relate to it is there were periods of my life, especially when we were struggling financially-
- MRMark Rober
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... where I thought the secret to happiness was going to be a different car-
- MRMark Rober
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... or a nicer handbag, or the ability to go on a nicer vacation with my kids. You might be, as you're listening or watching, in this moment in your life where you're so focused on chasing the weight on the scale, or the figure in the bank account, or the house in a certain neighborhood because you think that solves all your problems, and I actually thought it would.
- MRMark Rober
Mm-hmm. I think the good news is, like, if you, this is something that resonates and you struggle with, there is a very good solution for it, and the anecdote to this feeling of, like, needing and chasing that dopamine, getting the next thing, is gratitude. So, you know, this is why sometimes you hear, like, having a gratitude journal, or like, before you go to bed each night, like, literally writing down three things that happened that day that you were grateful for, because at any, at any one time, incredible amounts of both b- abundance and scarcity exist in our world.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MRMark Rober
It just depends on which, which one you wanna focus on, right? You know, and so, I, when I find myself in this thing and feeling down, that like, "Agh, I should be doing better, I should be having more," the, the reset is like, "Man, look at what I have in my life." And almost a hack for this, if you're still struggling to be grateful, imagine, take something away, say like a partner or s- someone that means a lot to you, me- how would you feel? And like that is a good reset of like, zhh, "Why am I worrying about what I'm going to bring to the potluck on Friday (laughs) r- and stressing over this in my life? That is such a small problem compared to what it could be," right? And I think it's a reset then of like when you come home, and at the end of the day, I think relationships do matter, and I think the research bears this out, right? Happiness is correlated to, like, the quality of the relationships in your life.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MRMark Rober
And for me, I find that to be as true as well. So then it's like, "Well, then I shouldn't be on my phone when I come home." And if at, at work I'm in this hyper-optimization mode and I get stuff done and I have people around me that... When you get home, you need to flip that and you just need to not be efficient with your kids. Like, the phone goes down and your goal should be flipped. "I need to be as inefficient as possible." Right? "I'm gonna read this book four times. I'm not gonna skip the pages. I'm gonna sit here and play this thing with them." Your goal when you get home should be, be as inefficient as you possibly can, and like that will yield the best results for fostering a child that feels like, you know, they're being raised in this loving environment, especially with all the distractions we have today.
- MRMel Robbins
I think that's the best parenting advice I've heard in a very long time.
- MRMark Rober
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
No, I mean it, because part of why we're so stressed out, I'll just speak for myself-
- MRMark Rober
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... is we're optimizing for efficiency and productivity as parents-
- MRMark Rober
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... and we need to do the opposite, because kids need your presence and your attention. They don't need to jam 50,000 things into the next 15 minutes.
Episode duration: 46:41
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