6 Signs You Are Addicted to Stress, According to a Psychologist | The Mel Robbins Podcast

Mel Robbins 0:00 (ticking sound) You and I are digging into the fascinating science, research, and psychology of drama.

Dr. Scott Lyons 0:10 Do you use language like extremely, literally, always, very, really, never? Do you feel anxious or bored when things are calm? Do you end up gossiping and stirring things up? Drama's not about making sense, it's about making sensation.

Mel Robbins 0:25 Okay. I'm having a huge light bulb moment.

Dr. Scott Lyons 0:27 Oh. Tell me about it.

Mel Robbins 0:30 Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. So, you know that I believe in synchronicity, I believe in signs, I believe that you can open the portal to the universe, and I have the perfect example of how that happens, it happened to me just this morning. I'm here in Los Angeles at, uh, Sirius XM Studios, and I come out of the bathroom before I was about to step into this room behind the mic and talk to you today, and holy cow, there was all this commotion as I was walking toward the elevators, and boom, this entourage of people walk in, and the person that walked in is somebody that I recognized from a Bravo reality television show. And I didn't even know his name, I just know that he's on this show called Flipping Out, which is a show where he's flipping high-end houses and constantly flipping out at his staff and flipping out at clients. My kids love the show, and I thought, "Oh my God, of course I'm seeing this person right now," because I'm about to go interview one of the world's leading experts on the topic of being addicted to drama (laughs) , and here I am looking at somebody who is on television constantly being dramatic and flipping out, and I thought, "If this is not a sign from the universe that I am in the right place, at the right time, having the right conversation with the perfect expert, I don't know what could be more perfect." So, I came down the elevator, I walked into the studio, and I am so thrilled because I know that today's conversation is gonna change your life. I know that this is exactly what you need to hear, because today, you and I are digging into the fascinating science, research, and psychology of drama. Drama in your life, drama with other people, drama in your relationships, and more importantly, you're going to get the tools that you need to remove it. You're gonna get the tools that you need to be able to diffuse it with people in your life that are dramatic or annoying or constantly about themselves. I am so excited to introduce you to Dr. Scott Lyons. Dr. Scott Lyons is a medical doctor. He has a PhD in clinical psychology and mind/body medicine. He is a renowned expert on somatic healing and the connection between the mind and the body. He has a masters in clinical s- psychology, and he is a renowned body-based trauma expert. His book, Addicted to Drama, is filled with science and psychology and tools and strategies that will help you identify where there is unnecessary drama in your life. He's gonna explain why we create drama, and why we keep ourselves on edge, and why we find ourselves picking fights, gossiping, and staying in these relationships where drama is present. I cannot wait to dig in, so without further ado... Dr. Scott Lyons, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

Dr. Scott Lyons 3:52 Thanks, Mel. I'm so excited to be here.

Mel Robbins 3:55 I'm thrilled. And so I wanna start with-

Dr. Scott Lyons 3:58 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 3:58 ... the most obvious question, which is, what do you mean when you say "addicted to drama"? What does that even mean?

Dr. Scott Lyons 4:06 It's the unnecessary turmoil. It's the exaggeration, it's the performative aspect of the, the use of, eh, the dysregulated use of energy, action, emotion, and the dysfunctional way of adaptation. Like...

Mel Robbins 4:22 Okay, those were a lot of big words.

Dr. Scott Lyons 4:24 Those were a lot of big words, we can break 'em down.

Mel Robbins 4:25 But the most-

Dr. Scott Lyons 4:26 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 4:26 ... important word that I just heard-

Dr. Scott Lyons 4:28 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 4:28 ... was unnecessary.

Dr. Scott Lyons 4:29 Yeah. The unnecessary turmoil. The-

Mel Robbins 4:32 I-

Dr. Scott Lyons 4:32 ... unnecessary exaggeration, intensification.

Mel Robbins 4:36 Love that. Here's what I just got from that definition.

Dr. Scott Lyons 4:38 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 4:39 I think this is super easy to spot in other people.

Dr. Scott Lyons 4:41 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 4:42 It's the person who's like the bull in the china shop-

Dr. Scott Lyons 4:45 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 4:46 ... and everything's about them and they're-

Dr. Scott Lyons 4:48 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 4:48 ... very blustery.

Dr. Scott Lyons 4:49 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 4:49 But, you just included me in the definition when you said "unnecessary turmoil".

Dr. Scott Lyons 4:56 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 4:57 And, I never considered myself to be a person who is addicted to drama.

Dr. Scott Lyons 5:03 Mm.

Mel Robbins 5:04 But I can see and admit-

Dr. Scott Lyons 5:06 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 5:07 ... that there are many areas and examples in my life-

Dr. Scott Lyons 5:10 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 5:10 ... where I create unnecessary turmoil-

Dr. Scott Lyons 5:14 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 5:14 ... for myself. And so, for the person listening, can you-

Dr. Scott Lyons 5:18 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 5:18 ... just go even deeper?

Dr. Scott Lyons 5:20 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 5:20 Could you walk us through-

Dr. Scott Lyons 5:23 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 5:23 ... some of the questions that you might ask somebody?

Dr. Scott Lyons 5:26 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 5:26 To help them realize, "Wow, I am addicted to drama in my life."

Dr. Scott Lyons 5:31 Yeah. Absolutely. So, one of the questions you can ask is, "Do you use language like extremely, literally, always, very,

Dr. Scott Lyons 5:39 really, never, that sort of extreme language? Do you feel anxious or bored when things are calm?" And now I'm raising my hand (laughs) .

Mel Robbins 5:49 (laughs) Used to.

Dr. Scott Lyons 5:51 Used to, yeah. Same (laughs) . Um, "Do you end up gossiping and stirring things up?" Gossiping is so interesting because it makes us feel included.... but at a cost.

Mel Robbins 6:02 Right.

Dr. Scott Lyons 6:02 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 6:02 And the thing to think- remember about gossiping is if people do it with you-

Dr. Scott Lyons 6:06 (laughs) They're doing it about you.

Mel Robbins 6:06 ... they always do it about you.

Dr. Scott Lyons 6:08 Exactly. Uh, you crave extreme situations and sensations.

Mel Robbins 6:13 Hmm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 6:14 So that might be big feelings, it might be big actions like par- you know, like jumping out of an airplane and-

Mel Robbins 6:21 Or partying every night.

Dr. Scott Lyons 6:22 ... um, rollercoaster, partying.

Mel Robbins 6:22 Or lots of hookups or-

Dr. Scott Lyons 6:24 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 6:24 Yeah.

Dr. Scott Lyons 6:25 Absolutely. Uh, you pull people into your crisis.

Mel Robbins 6:29 Mmm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 6:30 Mmm.

Mel Robbins 6:30 This is the victim form of drama.

Dr. Scott Lyons 6:32 This is the victim, but it's also what we call drama bonding. So it's a way of feeling connection, so it's like, "Hey Mel, oh my god, you're not gonna believe who I saw in the lobby. He gave me this weird look." And all of a sudden you're saying, "Oh, tell me more," and then I'm pulling you in. I'm pulling you into my vortex.

Mel Robbins 6:50 Okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 6:50 So you're like an inclusive-

Mel Robbins 6:52 Thank you. Dramatic person. (laughs)

Dr. Scott Lyons 6:54 Drama- (laughs) If you find yourself generalizing one bad situation and making it universal, so it's that like, "Someone cut me off on the road today and ugh, what a terrible day it is." Like people-

Mel Robbins 7:05 Or, "Everybody that I've met is a loser. I'm not dating."

Dr. Scott Lyons 7:10 Yes. Yes.

Mel Robbins 7:10 "What's up with men? I can't handle this anymore." Yes, okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 7:13 Yes.

Mel Robbins 7:14 Okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 7:15 Have you said those lines before?

Mel Robbins 7:16 No, uh-uh.

Dr. Scott Lyons 7:17 Oh, okay. You just heard them in your ear. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 7:17 I hear a lot of my friends say them though.

Dr. Scott Lyons 7:20 Yes. Yeah. It's like, ooh. Yeah. Um, the- the catchphrase, "It's always something."

Mel Robbins 7:27 Always something.

Dr. Scott Lyons 7:27 "It's always something." You know? And I have other friends from like, "It's always something," and I go, "What's always something?"

Mel Robbins 7:35 And then she'd just look at you and be like, "You."

Dr. Scott Lyons 7:37 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 7:37 "You always have something."

Dr. Scott Lyons 7:39 That- that is true. Yeah. Um, you feel more alive under pressure, so like waiting to the deadline to get things done. You're preoccupied with fixing things.

Mel Robbins 7:51 Mmm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 7:53 Mmm. Uh, you play out a scenario or interaction over and over again in your head, even changing the storyline a little bit at each time, and then possibly venting it to your friends as well.

Mel Robbins 8:05 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 8:06 So if you find yourself retelling the same story more than twice, I would ask you, "What about it haven't you processed yet? Why do you need to retell it?" Because basically you're just spreading the drama.

Mel Robbins 8:20 It's sort of like the person that talks about the breakup and then how the person has moved on-

Dr. Scott Lyons 8:25 Yes.

Mel Robbins 8:25 ... and they've been doing it for months and months and months.

Dr. Scott Lyons 8:28 Mons.

Mel Robbins 8:28 And by talking about it and being dramatic about it and stirring it up, they keep it at the surface-

Dr. Scott Lyons 8:33 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 8:33 ... but they don't drop into the deeper feelings of-

Dr. Scott Lyons 8:37 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 8:37 ... loneliness-

Dr. Scott Lyons 8:38 Yes.

Mel Robbins 8:38 ... and inferiority and abandonment and fear.

Dr. Scott Lyons 8:42 Yes.

Mel Robbins 8:42 Got it.

Dr. Scott Lyons 8:42 And so you, it, replaying it keeps you out of being in contact with those vulnerable feelings.

Mel Robbins 8:47 What are some of the signs that you might feel internally?

Dr. Scott Lyons 8:50 And it's important, again, to recognize how we view someone addicted to drama on the outside is different than how people feel on the inside.

Mel Robbins 8:57 Okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 8:59 So from the inside, you might say things, "I don't feel like I can direct my own reality. I don't have control."

Mel Robbins 9:05 Hmm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 9:06 "And my internal world has a lot of pain and wounding in it." And from the outside, someone might be like, it feels like everything they're doing is being controlled, manipulated, and measured. You know? On the inside, it's intense. There's an intensity. There's a sensation that you're always kind of uneased and about to erupt and that everything in- is urgent, like everything is an emergency-

Mel Robbins 9:36 Hmm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 9:36 ... because that's how we're viewing it from the inside. And from the outside, it feels like they're bulldozing, overpowering, and like this frenetic ener- frenetic energy that just can't be contained.

Mel Robbins 9:48 Mmm. This topic, addicted to drama, is so critical is because without understanding where you or other people that you care about are addicted to this cycle of drama in their life, you will never experience peace and happiness.

Dr. Scott Lyons 10:04 Yeah. It doesn't allow you to because peace, stillness, ease is unsafe.

Mel Robbins 10:11 What do you mean?

Dr. Scott Lyons 10:12 For those of us who have some propensity or have some addiction to drama, which is quite a few of us, getting to that point of stillness, ease, actually feels terrifying. It feels like death. Or we notice it in the reflex of our mind.

Mel Robbins 10:28 Okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 10:29 So if you've ever gone to a meditation class or been in a bath or just walking through a garden.

Mel Robbins 10:33 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 10:34 So you're in this peaceful place. The environment is right to find more ease and stillness-

Mel Robbins 10:40 Right.

Dr. Scott Lyons 10:40 ... and yet there's this moment where you drop down-

Mel Robbins 10:43 Uh-huh.

Dr. Scott Lyons 10:43 ... and then something happens, like an alarm goes off. We call that a revving reflex.

Mel Robbins 10:48 Revving reflex.

Dr. Scott Lyons 10:48 And you start thinking about the next day at work.

Mel Robbins 10:52 Yes.

Dr. Scott Lyons 10:52 You start thinking about that ex. You start getting on your phone-

Mel Robbins 10:55 (laughs)

Dr. Scott Lyons 10:55 ... you start looking at people, uh, your ex, whomever on the phone. You start doing things that interrupt that ease and that- that stillness.

Mel Robbins 11:03 Yeah.

Dr. Scott Lyons 11:04 Why? Why when we're sad do we go play even sadder music? Why are we rushing down the street when we have nowhere to go?

Mel Robbins 11:11 Why?

Dr. Scott Lyons 11:13 Well, part of it's this addiction to drama, this constant sense of dis-ease and urgency that is within us. And that

Dr. Scott Lyons 11:21 revving reflex helps us stay out of contact with the vulnerability of what hasn't been processed.

Mel Robbins 11:28 Okay. I'm having a huge light bulb moment.

Dr. Scott Lyons 11:30 Oh, tell me about it. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 11:31 Because, you know, Dr. Scott, I, when I think about being addicted to drama-

Dr. Scott Lyons 11:39 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 11:41 ... I hear that phrase-

Dr. Scott Lyons 11:43 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 11:43 ... and I think about external things, right?

Dr. Scott Lyons 11:47 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 11:47 When I heard addicted to drama-

Dr. Scott Lyons 11:49 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 11:51 ... and I- I s- I hear that phrase, I think about someone-

Dr. Scott Lyons 11:55 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 11:56 ... who on the surface is flipping out or annoying as hell.

Dr. Scott Lyons 12:00 Yeah. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 12:01 Or narcissistic-

Dr. Scott Lyons 12:02 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 12:02 ... or controlling-

Dr. Scott Lyons 12:03 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 12:03 ... or whatever.That's not actually what you're talking about. That's one aspect of it. Here's what I'm getting.

Dr. Scott Lyons 12:10 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 12:12 That an addiction to drama is a way to identify and label childhood trauma-

Dr. Scott Lyons 12:21 Yep.

Mel Robbins 12:21 ... the effect of growing up in a chaotic household-

Dr. Scott Lyons 12:24 Yep.

Mel Robbins 12:25 ... the effect of having sustained emotional abuse-

Dr. Scott Lyons 12:29 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 12:29 ... or sexual or physical abuse-

Dr. Scott Lyons 12:32 Yep.

Mel Robbins 12:32 ... or simply having this experience in your body where you feel on edge all the time.

Dr. Scott Lyons 12:38 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 12:39 And I've heard a lot of people in my work and in the research that we do talk about the fact that, you know, "I grew up with experiences where I felt like, 'When is the other shoe gonna drop?'"

Dr. Scott Lyons 12:50 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 12:51 "When is dad gonna come home drunk?"

Dr. Scott Lyons 12:52 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 12:52 "When is, you know, there gonna be another shooting on my block?"

Dr. Scott Lyons 12:56 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 12:56 "When is,

Mel Robbins 12:57 uh... When are we gonna run out of money? When..." And that your, you called it, what did you call it, a revving?

Dr. Scott Lyons 13:03 A revving reflex.

Mel Robbins 13:04 A revving f- reflex, that, that another way to think about this sense in your life that you have to always be ready-

Dr. Scott Lyons 13:11 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 13:11 ... for the next thing-

Dr. Scott Lyons 13:12 Yes.

Mel Robbins 13:13 ... that is the revving reflex going all the time, it sounds like.

Dr. Scott Lyons 13:16 Absolutely. It's the anticipation, the readiness for the next bad thing, for the next trauma. We trace the drama to avoid our traumas.

Mel Robbins 13:26 Okay. Let's unpack that-

Dr. Scott Lyons 13:27 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 13:27 ... because you're basically saying-

Dr. Scott Lyons 13:30 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 13:30 ... whether you are the annoying person in your friend group, in your family-

Dr. Scott Lyons 13:34 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 13:34 ... where it's all about you, all the time, you can't help it, you're even sick of your own stuff-

Dr. Scott Lyons 13:39 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 13:40 ... or you're the person who is sitting quietly in the corner-

Dr. Scott Lyons 13:46 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 13:47 ... with no external evidence that there is drama-

Dr. Scott Lyons 13:50 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 13:50 ... but you are so in your head-

Dr. Scott Lyons 13:52 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 13:53 ... and so either anxiety ridden or on edge or just bracing-

Dr. Scott Lyons 13:58 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 13:58 ... all the time-

Dr. Scott Lyons 14:00 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 14:00 ... that the drama is actually internal.

Dr. Scott Lyons 14:03 Yeah, that internal revving.

Mel Robbins 14:05 Got it. Oh, wow.

Dr. Scott Lyons 14:06 So that's the spectrum right there.

Mel Robbins 14:09 What, what, what made you wanna call this drama?

Dr. Scott Lyons 14:13 (laughs) Well, I mean, for one-

Mel Robbins 14:16 'Cause that feels a little bit more, um, accessible?

Dr. Scott Lyons 14:19 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 14:20 Like, it's, it, it, like, i- in some way, if I were to call that revving or that on edge sensation in my body-

Dr. Scott Lyons 14:27 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 14:27 ... and having been somebody

Mel Robbins 14:29 that really struggled with anxiety-

Dr. Scott Lyons 14:31 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 14:32 ... for 45 years-

Dr. Scott Lyons 14:34 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 14:34 ... until I really understood that it was in my body, not in my head-

Dr. Scott Lyons 14:37 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 14:40 ... calling it drama feels way nicer and actually more accessible than calling it something like childhood sexual trauma stored in my nervous system.

Dr. Scott Lyons 14:50 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 14:50 Like, I like the i- I kinda like the idea, okay, it's just drama in my nervous system.

Dr. Scott Lyons 14:55 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 14:55 Like, why did you start to study this? Why the word drama?

Dr. Scott Lyons 14:59 Yeah. I mean, drama is reclaiming. So we have these-

Mel Robbins 15:02 What does that mean?

Dr. Scott Lyons 15:02 ... like derogatory terms like drama queen.

Mel Robbins 15:04 Oh.

Dr. Scott Lyons 15:05 And when most people go, "They're such a drama queen or drama addict," it's usually in a very derogatory context.

Mel Robbins 15:11 That's true.

Dr. Scott Lyons 15:12 And I wanted to reclaim it. And I wanted to say, okay, so we have this familiar term that all of us, or most of us know. Someone walks in, they take the air out of the room, we know that person.

Mel Robbins 15:22 Yeah.

Dr. Scott Lyons 15:23 We know that they have some, like, proclivity towards drama-

Mel Robbins 15:26 Right.

Dr. Scott Lyons 15:26 ... some addiction to it.

Mel Robbins 15:27 Right. Or i- is this also-

Dr. Scott Lyons 15:29 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 15:30 ... the kind of person that they just can't get out of their own way?

Dr. Scott Lyons 15:32 Yes.

Mel Robbins 15:33 They get sober, then they relapse.

Dr. Scott Lyons 15:34 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 15:34 They, uh-

Dr. Scott Lyons 15:35 They keep dating the person that hurts them.

Mel Robbins 15:38 Yes.

Dr. Scott Lyons 15:38 Why? And it's, it's like, yeah, we can look at attachment patterns, but w- it all leads back to the same physiological process.

Mel Robbins 15:45 Which is what?

Dr. Scott Lyons 15:46 Which is that it helps you distract, it gives you energy, and it's a pain reliever. That is what drama does.

Mel Robbins 15:53 And drama-

Dr. Scott Lyons 15:55 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 15:55 ... is anything that what?

Dr. Scott Lyons 15:58 That r- gives you a stress response, basically, that raises those cortisol levels, that makes you f- revved up, and part of it is, when I talk about the exaggeration and the intensification of something, it, like, most people think of drama addicts as performative.

Mel Robbins 16:15 Right. Exactly.

Dr. Scott Lyons 16:16 Right?

Mel Robbins 16:16 This is what I'm getting at, that you're actually talking about a much larger pers- uh, spectrum.

Dr. Scott Lyons 16:21 Yeah. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 16:22 Like, what does it look like for somebody who is not, quote, "the drama queen," or doesn't, quote, "suck the air out of the room-"

Dr. Scott Lyons 16:30 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 16:30 ... but is suffering from an addiction to drama on the inside?

Dr. Scott Lyons 16:34 Yeah. Well, it all has the same physiological response.

Mel Robbins 16:38 Okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 16:38 It all gives you that revved up stress response.

Mel Robbins 16:41 Okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 16:41 And, and in that, it's, so that's one of the important things, is that th- this, whatever the behavior is, so whether we're over-scheduling ourselves, whether we're gossiping, whether we're getting into another fight with someone in order to feel closer to them, whatever it is that is the behavior, it all has the same physiological. It gives us that boost of energy. It gives us pain relief. It's an anesthesic. Drama is, stress is an anesthesic. Just like when you go running, do you run?

Mel Robbins 17:11 Used to.

Dr. Scott Lyons 17:12 Used to. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 17:12 Before bladder surgery-

Dr. Scott Lyons 17:13 (laughs) Okay.

Mel Robbins 17:13 ... yeah, and three children. (laughs)

Dr. Scott Lyons 17:15 (laughs) Or jumping into a cold pool.

Mel Robbins 17:18 Yeah.

Dr. Scott Lyons 17:19 I mean, those type of stress responses give us a flood of pain relief, horm- pain relief hormones, right?

Mel Robbins 17:26 You're right, but I don't think about it that way, because when you think about drama in your life-

Dr. Scott Lyons 17:31 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 17:32 ... it's, it causes a lot of pain.

Dr. Scott Lyons 17:33 Yeah. Drama's not about making sense, it's about making sensation, and that sensation gives you a sense of feeling alive when most of your internal experience is feeling numb.

Mel Robbins 17:45 Hmm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 17:46 So it gives you enough, the decibel of volume of sensation is high enough to rise above the threshold of numbness to go, "I feel something," and that numbness comes from a trauma response that's protective, that survival response. Then we start to feel like we don't exist, we don't belong.

Mel Robbins 18:04 Hmm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 18:05 And, and so we start to crave sensation-We start to reach for it, we start to manifest it. We start to find ourselves in scenarios or even create scenarios in our head that give us some type of experience, give a sensation to go, "Oh, at least I feel something even if it's bad." And especially if that something gives me that heightened stress response, I feel energized because that's the first stage of a stress response as it releases energy into our body. And the second part is, is it releases a flood, a cascade of hormones that gives us some pain relief or disconnection from the underlying pain and trauma that we are hiding from, that we have to hide from as a means of survival.

Mel Robbins 18:50 Or that we don't even know is there.

Dr. Scott Lyons 18:51 Or that we don't even know is there, but is plaguing us.

Mel Robbins 18:55 Huh. This is so in- how did you, like, get into this?

Dr. Scott Lyons 19:00 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 19:00 Why did you decide to research this?

Dr. Scott Lyons 19:03 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 19:03 How did you discover that you had an addiction to drama?

Dr. Scott Lyons 19:07 Yeah. Well, I was always in the arts. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 19:10 Okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 19:10 And that, that was an indicator as I, I liked performing-

Mel Robbins 19:13 Right.

Dr. Scott Lyons 19:13 ... in front of thousands of people, it's like that moment where you feel like the, the rise of excitement and energy, I was like, "Oh my god, I feel alive.

Dr. Scott Lyons 19:22 And I don't feel that in the rest of my life. Interesting." And, um, I was going through a divorce in my late 20s, and I was depressed. I was at the lowest point of my life. I had to move in with my parents. I just couldn't function. And I found that when I called my ex or got into fights with my sister or watched Bravo, whatever it was that, uh, that created some type of tension, I felt alive again. And I started to reflect about back on then, I was like, "Wait, so these moments of tension, of angst, of anxiety, of anger, that's when I feel alive? That's not the life I wanna live." When I would watch the news and I would go call a friend and be like, "Did you see that?"

Mel Robbins 20:11 Right.

Dr. Scott Lyons 20:12 And I'd feel alive. I'd feel part of something. I'd feel like we were an in group and we had something to share and I felt belonging, and then the moment I hung up, I felt alone again. I was like, "Oh, so that's... I don't wanna live a life where the moments I actually feel relationship are either in fighting or in gossiping."

Mel Robbins 20:31 That's how a lot of people bond.

Dr. Scott Lyons 20:33 I know.

Mel Robbins 20:33 Is by complaining or gossiping about other people or complaining about their life or griping about what's wrong.

Dr. Scott Lyons 20:40 Yeah, we drama bond.

Mel Robbins 20:42 Drama bond.

Dr. Scott Lyons 20:42 We throw

Dr. Scott Lyons 20:43 logs on each other's fire, and we feel like we're part of something.

Mel Robbins 20:47 Yes.

Dr. Scott Lyons 20:47 And I bring you into my tornado of chaos, and all of a sudden, I feel a sense of connection because my internal world is matching the external world and you're in it. And that just isn't a sustainable form of relationship, and yet-

Mel Robbins 21:04 Is it true that you even faked your own suicide?

Dr. Scott Lyons 21:07 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 21:07 So tell me that story.

Dr. Scott Lyons 21:09 Yeah. I was in high school, um, and I, I was at my wit's end. I was being bullied by teachers. I was told I was stupid by teachers, that I would never pass high school. I was being shoved into lockers. And I needed an out, I needed a way of surviving, and I didn't want to end my life but I wanted people to feel the pain I was feeling-

Mel Robbins 21:35 Mm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 21:36 ... so that they could somehow empathize finally with me-

Mel Robbins 21:39 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 21:40 ... and, and save me. I wanted to be saved. And so I set the scene. I wrote the note, I put the pills on the ground, I created the performance of my death, and I... What I came to understand later is what I called weaponized empathy. Even though there were people in my life who could relate to me, letting my guard down was too painful, was too scary, and so I couldn't actually recognize that there were people who could empathize with me. The only way I could understand empathy was if they, uh, were in the same pain I was in-

Mel Robbins 22:18 Hmm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 22:18 ... or something in, close to it, proximity to it.

Mel Robbins 22:22 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 22:22 It's like an eye for an eye.

Mel Robbins 22:23 Right.

Dr. Scott Lyons 22:24 And so many of us do that. We see these fights with partners, like if you don't, uh, like, "You don't truly understand my pain," and so we, we bully them into being in the same sense of pain we are in, and so I did that as a, you know, as a young adult.

Mel Robbins 22:40 How old were you?

Dr. Scott Lyons 22:41 I was 16 the first time.

Mel Robbins 22:44 Wait, the first time?

Dr. Scott Lyons 22:46 Yeah, I didn't, I didn't, uh, I didn't get what I needed, and part of why I didn't get what I needed is because I wasn't safe enough in my own body to receive people's love and care, validation, and we see that with those who are addicted to drama and we say like, "I'm here for you," and they don't hear it because hearing it would mean they have to let the drawbridge down of relationship and that would also let the bad things in.

Mel Robbins 23:16 That makes a lot of sense. You know, my mom has osen- often said to me, "Why would I go to therapy at my age?"

Dr. Scott Lyons 23:22 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 23:22 "So I have to dig up all that stuff I don't wanna deal with? What if I find out I don't like my life?"

Dr. Scott Lyons 23:27 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 23:27 "What if I find out I don't like your father? What if I find out I don't like you?"

Dr. Scott Lyons 23:31 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 23:31 Like I don't want, I don't wanna, like, let that in-

Dr. Scott Lyons 23:33 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 23:33 ... and so there's a huge part-

Dr. Scott Lyons 23:36 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 23:36 ... of this that I can see as you're telling the story, what I see in myself-

Dr. Scott Lyons 23:41 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 23:41 ... is that same busyness-

Dr. Scott Lyons 23:44 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 23:45 ... that trying to outrun all the things that I did not

Mel Robbins 23:50 want to have to face-

Dr. Scott Lyons 23:52 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 23:52 ... and realizing when I finally slowed down these past couple years-

Dr. Scott Lyons 23:57 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 23:57 ... that I was actively blocking-

Dr. Scott Lyons 24:01 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 24:03 ... the love that people were trying to pour into me-

Dr. Scott Lyons 24:06 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 24:06 ... because I hadn't yet faced the stuff-

Dr. Scott Lyons 24:09 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 24:09 ... that needed healing.

Dr. Scott Lyons 24:11 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 24:11 And so, your first attempt was when you were 16.

Dr. Scott Lyons 24:16 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 24:17 And then, did they, like... W- how did your parents respond? What did they try to do to intervene? Like, did they send you to therapy? Did you go in-patient? Like, what happened?

Dr. Scott Lyons 24:26 Yeah, I did in-patient.

Mel Robbins 24:28 And did it help? Did it not? Did it-

Dr. Scott Lyons 24:30 Yeah, I loved it.

Mel Robbins 24:32 Okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 24:32 It was a place of safety.

Mel Robbins 24:35 Okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 24:35 And so, they would let me out because I was doing so well, and I'd have to go back to that school-

Mel Robbins 24:40 Oh.

Dr. Scott Lyons 24:40 ... where I was being bullied and, you know, harmed by faculty. I mean-

Mel Robbins 24:46 And were you out at this point in your life?

Dr. Scott Lyons 24:48 No, no.

Mel Robbins 24:49 Okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 24:50 So, it wasn't even part of the conversation as to... I actually got more bullied because I had such severe learning disabilities-

Mel Robbins 24:58 Oh.

Dr. Scott Lyons 24:58 ... than I did about my sexuality.

Mel Robbins 25:00 Gotcha.

Dr. Scott Lyons 25:01 Sometimes I'd be pushed into lockers because... and called fag or other names, but really, it was like, "That dumb kid."

Mel Robbins 25:07 Oh, and then they start to... That was the era where they would, like, take us out of class and put you in the special track?

Dr. Scott Lyons 25:13 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 25:13 And so, you just knew.

Dr. Scott Lyons 25:14 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 25:15 And so, this continued on.

Dr. Scott Lyons 25:17 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 25:17 This seeking attention and wanting to be seen but not feeling seen.

Dr. Scott Lyons 25:23 Yeah, seeking to be seen, not feeling seen, and not able to accept being seen. And that's the conflict right there, is because w-... even though it's something we want, it feels too dangerous to get it. You know, so many of us, to be seen means that we're also being seen in the things that we are trying to avoid, the things that are too painful to be in contact with. And so, one of the aspects of addiction to drama is to keep running away from that point of contact, which is ourselves. You know, when we have early traumas, we disconnect from ourself, we get a divorce from ourself. We call that dissociation.

Mel Robbins 26:01 Right.

Dr. Scott Lyons 26:02 And it leaves a void.

Mel Robbins 26:03 Okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 26:04 And when we start filling that void up with anything, we've become dependent on it, whether it's alcohol, whether it's drugs, whether it's sex, whether it's stress. And when we fill that void, what it's also doing is it's helping us stay away from what's underneath that void-

Mel Robbins 26:20 Hmm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 26:21 ... underneath that hole or at the pit of that hole, which is the root of so much suffering, which is our trauma.

Mel Robbins 26:27 How do you identify that it's drama that you're addicted to?

Dr. Scott Lyons 26:31 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 26:31 Keeping in mind that this might be the first time that the person listening-

Dr. Scott Lyons 26:37 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 26:38 ... is considering, "Wow, I'm always waiting for the next shoe to drop."

Dr. Scott Lyons 26:43 Yep.

Mel Robbins 26:44 "I'm always stirring something up."

Dr. Scott Lyons 26:46 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 26:46 "I do bitch with my partner."

Dr. Scott Lyons 26:49 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 26:49 "Or pick fights."

Dr. Scott Lyons 26:50 Or, "I feel closer to them after a fight than I do in moments of ease."

Mel Robbins 26:55 Yes.

Dr. Scott Lyons 26:56 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 26:56 So wait, you're saying that we pick fights to feel closer with somebody?

Dr. Scott Lyons 27:00 It's the places where we feel safer.

Mel Robbins 27:03 Why do we feel safer when we're fighting?

Dr. Scott Lyons 27:05 Well, one of the symptoms of an addiction to drama is there's always a sense of dis-ease.

Mel Robbins 27:10 Hmm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 27:10 There's a sense of constant urgency. And from the outside, it looks like someone with an addiction to drama is, like, bulldozing, but on the inside, they feel out of sync, that their own sense of timing feels disproportionate to the timing of other people, and their energy, their attention, their emotion are disproportionate to other people. And I can go into the physiology of that.

Mel Robbins 27:33 Please, let's hear it.

Dr. Scott Lyons 27:35 Oh, okay. The best example I can give is... I was, uh, renting a Airbnb lately, recently, and you know those, uh, carbon monoxide detectors, when the battery's dead it goes beep-

Mel Robbins 27:46 Yes.

Dr. Scott Lyons 27:46 ... beep, and it doesn't stop?

Mel Robbins 27:47 Yes, it's so annoying.

Dr. Scott Lyons 27:49 (clears throat) So annoying. And they h- (laughs) somebody hid the carbon monoxide detector s-... in-... and I couldn't find it.

Mel Robbins 27:56 In this Airbnb rental?

Dr. Scott Lyons 27:57 (clears throat) In this Airbnb, and it was going, like, every s- 55 seconds. I timed it. And then I started to notice, "Oh my gosh,

Dr. Scott Lyons 28:07 I'm actually in an anticipation state." So, I'm- I'm already getting ready for the next beep. I feel my body tensing.

Mel Robbins 28:16 Yep.

Dr. Scott Lyons 28:16 I feel my attention zooming in onto where it could be, and that's what trauma does. So often we think trauma's just stored in the body.

Mel Robbins 28:24 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 28:25 But trauma is also about how we get ready for the next possible trauma.

Mel Robbins 28:30 Explain more about that.

Dr. Scott Lyons 28:31 So, all of our senses, the way we smell, the way we, uh, hear, uh, start to attune, like a TV channel, to the next possible danger.

Mel Robbins 28:42 Gotcha.

Dr. Scott Lyons 28:42 So, we're looking for it. That is the filter of our life, and-

Mel Robbins 28:45 Who... Like, it could be your boss, it could be-

Dr. Scott Lyons 28:47 Could be your boss, could be-

Mel Robbins 28:47 ... friends, could be all this stuff.

Dr. Scott Lyons 28:49 So, all of our senses are more attuned towards danger than safety. So, that is what we find. So, when those who are addicted to drama are, like, saying, "It's always something," it's because that is the channel to which they see the world. That's the channel that's on, the world that is dangerous, and so they constantly feel and are responding to that world of danger. They feel it in their whole nervous system. There's a sense of dis-ease. There's a... Uh, dis-ease is also because they feel disconnected to themselves.

Mel Robbins 29:22 Hmm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 29:22 There's so much suppression, repression, because they had to disconnect from the trauma that's stored in their body. And the symptom of that, that lets us know there's a disconnection, is dis-ease. We feel that sense of urgency because we're out of sync with the world as we know it. Our world, if we're addicted to drama, feels dangerous. The world that everyone else is in, who doesn't have that-

Mel Robbins 29:48 Looks easy. (laughs)

Dr. Scott Lyons 29:48 Looks easy.

Mel Robbins 29:48 Nice and simple.

Dr. Scott Lyons 29:49 And so, there's a sense of being in dissonance, out of sync with everyone.

Mel Robbins 29:52 So, can I ask you another question?

Dr. Scott Lyons 29:53 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 29:53 'Cause when you said-

Dr. Scott Lyons 29:55 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 29:55 ... that word, "It's always something-"

Dr. Scott Lyons 29:56 It's always something.

Mel Robbins 29:56 ... are there other catchphrases that people that have this addiction to drama... Like, I'm thinking about-

Dr. Scott Lyons 30:01 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 30:01 ... the fact that one of my daughters always says... and I used to say this too, "I always feel like I'm on the outside-

Dr. Scott Lyons 30:07 Yes.

Mel Robbins 30:07 ... looking in."

Dr. Scott Lyons 30:08 Yes.

Mel Robbins 30:08 "I always feel like everybody else has it figured out, but I don't." Like, are there... Is that, like, a catchphrase-

Dr. Scott Lyons 30:13 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 30:13 ... that you might say to yourself?

Dr. Scott Lyons 30:14 Yeah, "No one ever gets me."... no one's ever here for me. No one's got my back. And then someone next to you is like, "But I'm here with you." I, um- (laughs) My friend picked me up from the airport maybe a year ago, and she brought all my favorite food and my favorite water. And I had just gone through a breakup and I got in the car and I was like, she's like, "How are you?" And I was like, "Sad, I feel like no one will, no one loves me." And she's like, "I just brought you your favorite food. I picked you up from the airport." (laughs) And I was like, "Oh gosh, you're right. Thank you for breaking me out of that."

Mel Robbins 30:52 Yes.

Dr. Scott Lyons 30:52 It's such an old script that I replay sometimes when I'm not feeling well or not feeling, you know, secure in myself. But the reality is, I know there's love out there, but I can't be, I couldn't in my pa- in my childhood, I couldn't be with it. It wasn't safe.

Mel Robbins 31:08 You know, you're just helping me have a little-

Dr. Scott Lyons 31:11 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 31:11 ... bit of empathy for a friend of mine who-

Dr. Scott Lyons 31:13 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 31:13 ... I will not name, but this particular friend has this extremely annoying-

Dr. Scott Lyons 31:19 (laughs) Okay.

Mel Robbins 31:20 ... habit-

Dr. Scott Lyons 31:21 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 31:21 ... of texting in a passive-aggressive way.

Dr. Scott Lyons 31:24 Mm.

Mel Robbins 31:25 "When are we ever gonna see you?" Or heaven forbid, I am in the town that this person lives in.

Dr. Scott Lyons 31:31 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 31:31 Inevitably, if this person sees that I am in town, instead of getting a, "Hey, I see you're in town."

Dr. Scott Lyons 31:39 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 31:39 "Do you have time?"

Dr. Scott Lyons 31:39 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 31:39 "Let's hang out."

Dr. Scott Lyons 31:40 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 31:40 It's, "Oh, thanks a lot for not saying that you were coming." And I'm like, "Fuck you."

Dr. Scott Lyons 31:45 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 31:45 Like, why, why are you unloading this on me? And what you're making me see-

Dr. Scott Lyons 31:51 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 31:51 ... is that this person isn't a jerk. This person has an addiction to this drama, and they feel-

Dr. Scott Lyons 32:00 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 32:01 ... a sense of not being important.

Dr. Scott Lyons 32:03 A sense, there, there's a sense of not feeling important. There's a sense of not being seen, which is a chronic i- issue of the original trauma often.

Mel Robbins 32:11 Mm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 32:11 And I'm assuming they go from seeing something on the internet and creating a narrative or story-

Mel Robbins 32:17 Yes.

Dr. Scott Lyons 32:17 ... and then having an emotional response to the story, as opposed to what's actually happening.

Mel Robbins 32:22 Yes.

Dr. Scott Lyons 32:23 And so, what you could sometimes say is, "I hear the story you're creating is that I'm not here for you. But if we can take a step back, I'd love to get together and connect." Because it, and this is the hard part about being someone, being around someone who's addicted to drama, is often they're rolling down the hill of drama.

Mel Robbins 32:47 Yes.

Dr. Scott Lyons 32:47 That inertia, you cannot stop. I don't know about your friend, but if you were to say, like, "I'm here. Let's get together," they're like, "No, it's too late."

Mel Robbins 32:55 Yes.

Dr. Scott Lyons 32:56 "It's too late."

Mel Robbins 32:56 1000%.

Dr. Scott Lyons 32:57 "You've hurt me. I don't know what I can do."

Mel Robbins 32:59 Yes.

Dr. Scott Lyons 33:00 "Everyone hurts me." And they just keep pulling all these logs on and pu- (laughs) and to burn their fire higher-

Mel Robbins 33:06 Yes.

Dr. Scott Lyons 33:06 ... hotter-

Mel Robbins 33:07 Yes.

Dr. Scott Lyons 33:07 ... the drama fire.

Mel Robbins 33:08 Yes.

Dr. Scott Lyons 33:09 And you can't stop it.

Mel Robbins 33:10 Well, I was doing this to myself too.

Dr. Scott Lyons 33:13 Hm.

Mel Robbins 33:13 So that's an example of somebody on the external.

Dr. Scott Lyons 33:16 That's an external rever. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 33:17 Let me tell you the internal one-

Dr. Scott Lyons 33:18 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 33:19 ... is, um, when I would say, boy, probably five or six years ago, as I was really starting to feel lonely.

Dr. Scott Lyons 33:30 Hm.

Mel Robbins 33:30 I was, my kids were getting older, and I was no longer seeing a lot of friends 'cause we're all super busy and I'm working all the time.

Dr. Scott Lyons 33:40 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 33:40 And I started to tell myself a story that I have no friends.

Dr. Scott Lyons 33:44 Hm.

Mel Robbins 33:44 And I started to tell myself a story that all of my old friends were always getting together-

Dr. Scott Lyons 33:50 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 33:51 ... and they were getting together without me.

Dr. Scott Lyons 33:54 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 33:54 And I kept repeating this story, and it kept me isolated. It kept me feeling lonely.

Dr. Scott Lyons 34:02 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 34:02 It kept me feel, it kept me from reaching out to people.

Dr. Scott Lyons 34:06 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 34:06 It made me feel separate from everybody else. It actually made me miserable because I convinced myself that all of our old friends were having wonderful parties and enjoying life and everything was fantastic, and we were the losers that nobody liked or ever invited anywhere. And of course, now I know nobody was getting together with anybody. Everybody was busy as hell-

Dr. Scott Lyons 34:27 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 34:27 ... and starting to feel lonely.

Dr. Scott Lyons 34:28 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 34:29 And it was a complete dramatic scene-

Dr. Scott Lyons 34:34 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 34:34 ... that I had created and was the main character in.

Dr. Scott Lyons 34:37 Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that sounds so fucking painful.

Mel Robbins 34:41 Well, I think-

Dr. Scott Lyons 34:41 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 34:41 ... based on the number of comments and topic requests that we get-

Dr. Scott Lyons 34:49 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 34:50 ... I would be willing to put money-

Dr. Scott Lyons 34:52 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 34:52 ... on the fact that 90% of you listening can relate to that story.

Dr. Scott Lyons 34:59 Yeah. I think it's so common how we create, we internally rev, we create these stories that keep us, that reenact our childhood traumas, that keep us further

Dr. Scott Lyons 35:11 away.

Mel Robbins 35:11 Well, so for somebody who's never even considered this-

Dr. Scott Lyons 35:14 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 35:14 ... could you give us an example-

Dr. Scott Lyons 35:17 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 35:17 ... that is relatable-

Dr. Scott Lyons 35:19 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 35:19 ... to how some kind of trauma-

Dr. Scott Lyons 35:23 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 35:24 ... that a lot of people may have experienced-

Dr. Scott Lyons 35:27 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 35:27 ... in their childhood-

Dr. Scott Lyons 35:27 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 35:28 ... they might not even consider it to be trauma.

Dr. Scott Lyons 35:29 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 35:31 Can you give us an example of how that can create an addiction to drama as an adult?

Dr. Scott Lyons 35:38 Yeah, absolutely. So most of us have some sense in, in our life of not being seen and heard.

Mel Robbins 35:43 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 35:44 That's a, a kind of a very familiar wound for many of us. And so, especially as young kids, what do we do? We don't have very many options. So we disconnect. We disconnect from the feeling, we focus on something else. And it's a suppression repression of it.

Mel Robbins 36:04 I think I have an example.

Dr. Scott Lyons 36:05 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 36:06 And it's one I did to my kids.

Dr. Scott Lyons 36:07 Okay, tell me. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 36:08 So, when our kids were in middle school-

Dr. Scott Lyons 36:13 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 36:14 ... I was starting to travel a lot, and my husband was the stay-at-home dad.

Dr. Scott Lyons 36:19 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 36:20 And one of the things that our daughters, in particular-... say that we did terribly as parents, is that my husband, because of how he was raised-

Dr. Scott Lyons 36:32 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 36:32 ... would always say to them, "Try to get a ride home."

Dr. Scott Lyons 36:35 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 36:35 (laughs) And-

Dr. Scott Lyons 36:37 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 36:37 I, meanwhile, I'm off traveling.

Dr. Scott Lyons 36:39 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 36:39 I have no idea this is happening.

Dr. Scott Lyons 36:41 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 36:41 I did not grow up in a family-

Dr. Scott Lyons 36:42 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 36:43 ... where anybody ever said, "Try to get a ride home."

Dr. Scott Lyons 36:45 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 36:46 I lived close enough to the school, I could walk home if worse came to worst, but our kids could not walk home from where they were.

Dr. Scott Lyons 36:52 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 36:52 And so Chris, because of his fricking childhood-

Dr. Scott Lyons 36:56 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 36:56 ... where nobody picked him up-

Dr. Scott Lyons 36:57 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 36:58 ... was constantly telling our middle school daughters, "See if you can't get a ride home."

Dr. Scott Lyons 37:02 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 37:03 And so they would be feeling, at the end of a soccer match, the panic-

Dr. Scott Lyons 37:08 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 37:09 ... that they're responsible for bumming a ride home with somebody.

Dr. Scott Lyons 37:12 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 37:14 Fast-

Dr. Scott Lyons 37:15 Or abandoned.

Mel Robbins 37:16 Or abandoned, all of it.

Dr. Scott Lyons 37:16 Oh.

Mel Robbins 37:17 And, and, and fast-forward now-

Dr. Scott Lyons 37:19 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 37:20 ... I realize-

Dr. Scott Lyons 37:21 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 37:22 ... that there is a lot of drama in our family-

Dr. Scott Lyons 37:25 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 37:25 ... around getting out of the house-

Dr. Scott Lyons 37:27 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 37:27 ... because it becomes this like, ah experience in our family-

Dr. Scott Lyons 37:31 Yeah. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 37:32 ... because they have this unresolved issue-

Dr. Scott Lyons 37:37 Yeah. Yep.

Mel Robbins 37:38 ... of feeling abandoned, and then it's getting triggered when we as a family are trying to go somewhere and they're starting to feel like nobody's gonna be there on time. We're not gonna be there on time. This is a very familiar experience, and that starts r- Is this an example of it?

Dr. Scott Lyons 37:53 Yeah, it's a beautiful example of the dish- disproportionate, like, response to a very basic stimulus.

Mel Robbins 38:00 Yes.

Dr. Scott Lyons 38:01 It's like blowing out a candle with a fire hose. It doesn't make sense.

Mel Robbins 38:07 (laughs)

Dr. Scott Lyons 38:07 It's like, "Oh, it's sprinkling outside. We better go into the bomb shelter." It's like, "We're going to leave the house. Come on, Mel. Mel, Mel, we gotta go. We're gonna be late. Everyone's gonna hate us."

Mel Robbins 38:17 You're 1,000% in our kitchen right now.

Dr. Scott Lyons 38:20 I... (laughs)

Mel Robbins 38:21 The, the blowing out a candle with a fire hose-

Dr. Scott Lyons 38:24 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 38:24 ... let's just pause on that phrase-

Dr. Scott Lyons 38:26 Sure.

Mel Robbins 38:27 ... because I think we all know a number of people in our lives-

Dr. Scott Lyons 38:33 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 38:34 ... that blow the candle out with a fire hose, that they get triggered and they completely tantrum.

Dr. Scott Lyons 38:42 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 38:44 Let's talk about what is it like, and how can you, in a healthy way-

Dr. Scott Lyons 38:51 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 38:51 ... be in a relationship with somebody-

Dr. Scott Lyons 38:54 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 38:54 ... who is addicted to drama?

Dr. Scott Lyons 38:56 Yeah. Because most of us know someone who is addicted drama.

Mel Robbins 39:01 Yeah.

Dr. Scott Lyons 39:01 It's important to recognize that a stress response, so if someone who's in cr- chronic stress response, like in, happens in addiction to drama, is that it's contagious. And, um, so y- let's say I'm... I was pretty nervous when I saw you today. I still am a little nervous.

Mel Robbins 39:17 You are?

Dr. Scott Lyons 39:18 Yes. Oh my god, Mel.

Mel Robbins 39:20 Why?

Dr. Scott Lyons 39:20 I don't know.

Mel Robbins 39:21 You're great.

Dr. Scott Lyons 39:21 You're great.

Mel Robbins 39:22 Thank you.

Dr. Scott Lyons 39:22 And it's intimidating.

Mel Robbins 39:23 Oh, please.

Dr. Scott Lyons 39:24 (laughs) And there, someone in this room, or even you, might start to pick it up on a level you wouldn't recognize.

Mel Robbins 39:32 Okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 39:33 Yeah, so subconsciously.

Mel Robbins 39:34 Yep.

Dr. Scott Lyons 39:35 Your physiology is responding to my physiology. That's evolutionarily designed. You know, I'm running into the house or into the studio because I just got chased by a snake, and I, you don't even have to know what's chasing me. Your physiology is gonna mirror mine in preparation to be responsive.

Mel Robbins 39:54 I would imagine this is even faster and more addictive in a family.

Dr. Scott Lyons 40:00 Yes, because you register the cues quicker.

Mel Robbins 40:02 I was shopping with our daughter this weekend-

Dr. Scott Lyons 40:04 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 40:05 ... and it happened to us.

Dr. Scott Lyons 40:06 Yeah?

Mel Robbins 40:06 Yeah. She's stressed about, you know, life after college-

Dr. Scott Lyons 40:10 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 40:10 ... and so she's already baseline, you can tell, starting to rev herself up-

Dr. Scott Lyons 40:16 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 40:16 ... to use the language of drama. We are out shopping and she comes out of this, uh, uh, dressing room-

Dr. Scott Lyons 40:25 Okay.

Mel Robbins 40:25 ... and she's got on a pair of motorcycle boots, and she's like, "What do you think?" And I said, "Those look just like the ones that I bought you five years ago." And she goes, "Well, I don't have those anymore." And the energy shifts-

Dr. Scott Lyons 40:38 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 40:39 ... and I immediately feel the drama.

Dr. Scott Lyons 40:42 Yep.

Mel Robbins 40:43 And she then spins on her heels and stomps back into the thing, and then I feel myself rev up because I'm thinking-

Dr. Scott Lyons 40:51 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 40:51 ... "Is she pissed at me because I'm not buying her a pair of boots?" Like-

Dr. Scott Lyons 40:55 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 40:55 ... and now I'm tense.

Dr. Scott Lyons 40:56 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 40:56 And it escalated from there.

Dr. Scott Lyons 40:59 Yeah. Absolutely.

Mel Robbins 41:00 And I'm realizing that the dynamic that you've described of somebody having that flood of emotion-

Dr. Scott Lyons 41:12 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 41:13 ... and then blowing out the candle with a fire hose-

Dr. Scott Lyons 41:16 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 41:16 ... and stomping into a dressing room-

Dr. Scott Lyons 41:18 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 41:19 ... she's feeling something deep in the moment, which is painful, which is, "I don't know what I'm doing with my life-

Dr. Scott Lyons 41:26 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 41:26 ... and I'm afraid I'm not gonna figure it out."

Dr. Scott Lyons 41:28 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 41:29 And these surface level fights-

Dr. Scott Lyons 41:31 Yep.

Mel Robbins 41:31 ... are her seeking that connection with me.

Dr. Scott Lyons 41:34 Yeah. She might not be able to be in contact with it.

Mel Robbins 41:37 It's too painful.

Dr. Scott Lyons 41:38 It's too painful, so what do we do? We distract ourselves from that pain by creating more sensation.

Mel Robbins 41:45 Well, so how do you deal with somebody who's constantly like this?

Dr. Scott Lyons 41:48 Yeah. So for one, recognize what's happening in your own body.

Mel Robbins 41:51 Okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 41:52 So the fact that you had that experience with your daughter, you started getting revved up from her revving.

Mel Robbins 41:58 Yes.

Dr. Scott Lyons 41:58 So you gotta m- find your anchor, find your ground, shake it off.

Mel Robbins 42:02 Oh my god, and then you wanna know what I did?

Dr. Scott Lyons 42:04 What'd you do? (laughs)

Mel Robbins 42:06 (laughs) Oh my god.

Dr. Scott Lyons 42:07 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 42:08 I texted somebody while she was in the dressing room-

Dr. Scott Lyons 42:11 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 42:11 ... as like... I don't remember what. I was responding to a text and I'm like, and I'm really, like, just deep breathing and using the let them theory because-

Dr. Scott Lyons 42:19 Ugh.

Mel Robbins 42:19 ... Kendall is in a mood. And then all of a sudden, Kendall responds back because she was in the group chat-

Dr. Scott Lyons 42:28 Oh shit, Mel.

Mel Robbins 42:29 ... and just said...... you know I'm in this group chat with you and Lynn.

Dr. Scott Lyons 42:33 (inhales deeply)

Mel Robbins 42:34 And then I wrote back, "Touche and you are in a mood. What do you need?"

Dr. Scott Lyons 42:41 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 42:43 (laughs)

Dr. Scott Lyons 42:43 And did that work?

Mel Robbins 42:44 Um, (sniffs) you know, we stayed in the drama cycle-

Dr. Scott Lyons 42:49 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 42:50 ... kind of for the rest of the day.

Dr. Scott Lyons 42:51 Yeah, it does-

Mel Robbins 42:52 And then the next morning-

Dr. Scott Lyons 42:54 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 42:56 ... I texted her and said, "I'm out here for two days. I really want to have today go well."

Dr. Scott Lyons 43:04 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 43:04 "What do you need from me?" And she said, "Well, why don't we talk," and then we get in the car and then the safety of the car, there's something about, I think, talking to somebody when you're side by side-

Dr. Scott Lyons 43:12 Yes.

Mel Robbins 43:13 ... versus looking them in the eye. She just burst into tears.

Dr. Scott Lyons 43:16 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 43:17 And she's like, "You think I have it all figured out. I, I don't. Like, I'm, I, I, I, I'm afraid I'm not gonna make it. I don't, I don't know what to do. I don't even-"

Dr. Scott Lyons 43:25 Hmmm.

Mel Robbins 43:25 "... know why I'm out here. I don't know how to get into..."

Dr. Scott Lyons 43:27 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 43:27 Like, and it all came pouring out. And all I did was ap- and then I just apologized and I said, "I'm really sorry. You're right."

Dr. Scott Lyons 43:37 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 43:37 "I th- I look at you and see an accomplished, put together, confident young woman-"

Dr. Scott Lyons 43:44 Hmmm.

Mel Robbins 43:44 "... who is doing the work."

Dr. Scott Lyons 43:45 Hmmm.

Mel Robbins 43:46 "I don't ask you if you're okay because I assume you are and I'm sorry."

Dr. Scott Lyons 43:49 Wow.

Mel Robbins 43:50 It was a, it was a deep level of fear and pain-

Dr. Scott Lyons 43:57 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 43:59 ... that a lot of us experience when we're going through a major life change which she is. Those, those first years out of college or out of high school or out of a relationship or out of a marriage are scary-

Dr. Scott Lyons 44:12 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 44:12 ... as you're finding your way. And I forget that.

Dr. Scott Lyons 44:15 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 44:15 And so, I can see that, (clears throat) in that example that I just lived in the last 48 hours, the drama-

Dr. Scott Lyons 44:24 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 44:25 ... escalated-

Dr. Scott Lyons 44:26 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 44:26 ... because she didn't know how to talk about-

Dr. Scott Lyons 44:28 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 44:29 ... the painful thing which is, "I'm lonely out here and I feel lost and I don't know if I'm gonna make it-"

Dr. Scott Lyons 44:36 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 44:37 "... in this big world as a singer/songwriter."

Dr. Scott Lyons 44:40 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 44:40 And that's a lot.

Dr. Scott Lyons 44:41 Hm.

Mel Robbins 44:42 And so instead, we started fighting about the motorcycle boots and that led us to this existential beautiful conversation.

Dr. Scott Lyons 44:48 It's such a prime example of how this little thing over here that's blown so out of proportion, that's so disproportionate to what's actually underneath the hood.

Mel Robbins 44:58 Yeah.

Dr. Scott Lyons 44:59 And if we can get underneath the hood, the drama often, like, settles and metabolizes because we can get-

Mel Robbins 45:06 How do we do that, Dr. Scott Tom?

Dr. Scott Lyons 45:08 Yeah. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 45:08 No, seriously because-

Dr. Scott Lyons 45:09 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 45:09 ... I think, like, I can think, I s- I see this everywhere.

Dr. Scott Lyons 45:12 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 45:13 I see the fact that when my parents came to visit me in Vermont-

Dr. Scott Lyons 45:16 Yeah. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 45:16 ... it's the first time they've, they've visited us since we moved there three years ago.

Dr. Scott Lyons 45:20 Wow, yeah.

Mel Robbins 45:21 And they came, it was a beautiful visit, but as soon as my parents were leaving, my mom started to go, "Well, I guess we'll do Thanksgiving in Florida," when the plan had been for all of us and extended family to come. And she started just saying it and saying it and saying it and saying it-

Dr. Scott Lyons 45:36 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 45:37 ... and the old me-

Dr. Scott Lyons 45:39 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 45:39 ... would have gotten pissed off.

Dr. Scott Lyons 45:40 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 45:42 I would have felt controlled.

Dr. Scott Lyons 45:43 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 45:45 I would have been angry about the campaigning to change a plan.

Dr. Scott Lyons 45:49 Yep.

Mel Robbins 45:50 And I would have felt offended when she said, "Well, you and your brother can get together." That, that might, the fact that I'm going to Florida doesn't mean that, you know, you can't do what you're doing.

Dr. Scott Lyons 45:59 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 45:59 All I've ever said is I want our family to do Thanksgiving together. And so, like, I see, I see you s-

Dr. Scott Lyons 46:05 She created a bind in that moment.

Mel Robbins 46:07 Yeah.

Dr. Scott Lyons 46:07 Oh.

Mel Robbins 46:07 And so here's the thing though. When I really unhooked myself-

Dr. Scott Lyons 46:12 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 46:13 ... and I went under the hood, here's what I thought. "When was the last time that we were all together?"

Dr. Scott Lyons 46:19 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 46:20 When was the last time we actually did all travel to them?

Dr. Scott Lyons 46:22 Hmmm.

Mel Robbins 46:23 And it was quite a while ago. And so when I didn't get into the drama cycle and-

Dr. Scott Lyons 46:30 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 46:30 ... I just took a deep breath and I was like, "Well, what's actually going on under here?"

Dr. Scott Lyons 46:34 That's exactly the question that needs to be asked, Mel.

Mel Robbins 46:37 Okay, so that's the technique if you're, you're dealing with the friend that texts you, "I see you're in town. Oh, now it's too late, we're not getting together," or the fight about shopping or the-

Dr. Scott Lyons 46:45 Yeah. Part of it is, we can use what, like, functional reframes. So we go, "What's, what do we imagine the story underneath their story, the feelings underneath their story? What is the unspoken needs that are actually present?" And that takes a fair amount of empathy, but it's a skill set for ourselves too. It's like, so well, we don't get involved in their drama cycle.

Mel Robbins 47:07 Okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 47:08 That's part of a boundary.

Mel Robbins 47:09 Okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 47:10 So, you know, again, recognizing what's happening in your own body, settling yourself. Do not attempt to take them off the rolling hill.

Mel Robbins 47:19 Okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 47:20 That is never gonna work. It's like, "Hey, what's going on with you?"

Mel Robbins 47:25 (screams) Yes.

Dr. Scott Lyons 47:26 Ah! That just is a fucking log on their fire.

Mel Robbins 47:28 Yes.

Dr. Scott Lyons 47:28 You are squeezing... (laughs)

Mel Robbins 47:29 So do you just, like, quietly put your hand on your heart and take a breath and, like, literally go, "Let them."

Dr. Scott Lyons 47:36 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 47:36 "Let them spiral. Let them blow the candle out with the fire hose."

Dr. Scott Lyons 47:40 Yep. Sometimes you have to let them run their cycle-

Mel Robbins 47:43 Okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 47:43 ... so that you can then enter in, and usually the cycle ends with a collapse-

Mel Robbins 47:48 Yes.

Dr. Scott Lyons 47:48 ... in the drama cycle. S-

Mel Robbins 47:49 Well, a lot of times what I saw from the listeners that wrote in is that there's the eruption-

Dr. Scott Lyons 47:58 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 47:59 ... and then there's the silent treatment-

Dr. Scott Lyons 48:01 (sighs)

Mel Robbins 48:02 ... because the person doesn't know or doesn't want to-

Dr. Scott Lyons 48:06 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 48:06 ... or isn't emotionally mature enough-

Dr. Scott Lyons 48:09 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 48:09 ... to repair-

Dr. Scott Lyons 48:10 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 48:11 ... the situation. So what do you do when you get the eruption-

Dr. Scott Lyons 48:15 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 48:16 ... and then the ice silent treatment or the pretending like nothing ever even happened?

Dr. Scott Lyons 48:21 Yeah, that's-

Mel Robbins 48:22 How do you handle that?

Dr. Scott Lyons 48:25 Go talk to a friend, a therapist to validate your experience.

Mel Robbins 48:28 Okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 48:29 You know, don't rely on their sense of reality to match yours. The more you try to p- put that pressure on yourself or them to have that mutual reality, the more...... challenging you will find it to be in your own sense of peace. The Venn diagram of where the overlap of realities happen is small in those moments.

Mel Robbins 48:50 Okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 48:51 Because they are pulling in the past and the future, as opposed to the present.

Mel Robbins 48:56 What's helped me a lot is understanding that when somebody does that-

Dr. Scott Lyons 49:00 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 49:01 ... they are having an experience in their bodies where they're experience some wave of emotion that they literally can't tolerate it.

Dr. Scott Lyons 49:10 Yep.

Mel Robbins 49:10 So they puke it out at you.

Dr. Scott Lyons 49:12 Yep. The- you become the, or the relationships become the depository for the o- emotions.

Mel Robbins 49:18 So, is the reason why this is an addiction-

Dr. Scott Lyons 49:20 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 49:21 ... is because emotional outbursts or creating this revved up state in your body, or keeping yourself in a loop where you're like, "Nobody gets me. Nobody gets me."

Dr. Scott Lyons 49:34 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 49:34 "Nobody loves me. Nobody takes care of me."

Dr. Scott Lyons 49:36 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 49:37 It's an addiction because it's w- why is it an addiction? Like how is it classified as an addiction-

Dr. Scott Lyons 49:43 Yes.

Mel Robbins 49:43 ... Doctor Scott?

Dr. Scott Lyons 49:44 (laughs) So addiction typically has at least five characteristics to it.

Mel Robbins 49:47 Okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 49:48 Including you build up a tolerance level to it. Um, you have withdrawal symptoms. You don't care about the social consequences of the action or the behavior. You, it occupies a lot of your energy and attention.

Mel Robbins 50:02 Hmm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 50:02 And all of these things really fit into an addiction to drama. An example of tolerance is, you need more to feel more. You need more to get drunk.

Mel Robbins 50:13 Hmm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 50:13 And the same is true with stress. That we start to need more stress, or more of anything in that regard, to feel more. So, I used to get confused with, I thought I was super toler- like capable of dealing with stress. I had just built up a tolerance level for it, which meant that I needed more th- o- over-scheduling. I needed to be in more grad programs at the same time. I needed more intense relationships to get that high, to get that hit that then gives me a sensation of feeling alive, it gives me a sense of energy, gives me that pain relief. I needed more to feel more. So, that's tolerance.

Mel Robbins 50:53 Yep.

Dr. Scott Lyons 50:54 Uh, withdrawal symptoms shows up as things like anxiety and boredom. It's part of the collapse. It's like, "Oh, I'm so bored," and we start getting that itch. You know that itch of like, "I gotta do something."

Mel Robbins 51:05 Yes.

Dr. Scott Lyons 51:05 "Gotta go get a tattoo," or, "I gotta..." I don't know what it is, but I feel like that itch gets met if I get into a little friction with a friend, or I go watch the news, or I go doom scrolling. Something feels stimulating, takes me out of that boredom. And more importantly, out of the anxiety, because at the base of, or the bottom of the anxiety is all the things I am trying to avoid. All the feelings that have been tucked down, or haven't had the space, time, permission, support to process.

Mel Robbins 51:33 Well, what's interesting about what you're saying is-

Dr. Scott Lyons 51:35 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 51:35 ... if you're bored-

Dr. Scott Lyons 51:36 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 51:37 ... you could pick up a book of Mary Oliver poems.

Dr. Scott Lyons 51:40 (laughs) As I often do.

Mel Robbins 51:41 You could pick up a book of, like, fabulous fiction.

Dr. Scott Lyons 51:45 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 51:46 But if what you stimulate boredom with-

Dr. Scott Lyons 51:49 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 51:50 ... is doom scrolling-

Dr. Scott Lyons 51:52 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 51:52 ... or turning on, uh, some crime junkie thing.

Dr. Scott Lyons 51:56 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 51:56 I remember when

Mel Robbins 51:57 we had the extraordinary Dr. Thema Bryant-

Dr. Scott Lyons 51:59 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 52:00 ... on the podcast, and she said something that really struck a nerve and has gone crazy viral. And it's this idea of, you know, if you have trauma in your background-

Dr. Scott Lyons 52:11 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 52:12 ... you really wanna examine why you watch-

Dr. Scott Lyons 52:17 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 52:17 ... these crime shows-

Dr. Scott Lyons 52:19 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 52:19 ... or these horror shows-

Dr. Scott Lyons 52:20 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 52:20 ... or these violent entertainment shows at night.

Dr. Scott Lyons 52:23 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 52:24 And she was saying that that is because it's familiar to you.

Dr. Scott Lyons 52:30 I would go a little further.

Mel Robbins 52:32 Okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 52:32 It's familiar so we're in the reenactment pattern, but what does that do for you?

Mel Robbins 52:36 What does it do for you? I don't know.

Dr. Scott Lyons 52:37 It gives you, it goes back to the three things. It gives you pain relief, it gives you distraction, and it gives you energy.

Mel Robbins 52:45 How does it give you pain relief? I still don't understand that.

Dr. Scott Lyons 52:47 Yeah. So, we have two main natural pain relievers-

Mel Robbins 52:51 Okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 52:51 ... in our body. We get it from connection-

Mel Robbins 52:54 Yeah.

Dr. Scott Lyons 52:54 ... the heart, and we get it from stress. So, let's say-

Mel Robbins 52:59 How is stress a pain reliever? 'Cause I hear the word stress and I'm like-

Dr. Scott Lyons 53:02 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 53:02 ... "That's pain."

Dr. Scott Lyons 53:03 So, it's in preparation for what we do as part of a stress response. You're gonna get into a fight, you already need the pain relief, the cascade of hormones that gives you the pain relief, in preparation to deal with and adapt to the circumstances. So, also, in, in love it bl- like, it releases the hormones that then blocks the pain. It, it essentially gives us a distraction technique.

Mel Robbins 53:33 Gotcha. So you're basically feet up, on the couch. You're watching, uh, you know, some sort of like dramatic-

Dr. Scott Lyons 53:41 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 53:42 ... violent kind of thing.

Dr. Scott Lyons 53:43 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 53:43 You're calling it entertainment.

Dr. Scott Lyons 53:45 Calling it whatever you want.

Mel Robbins 53:46 Yeah, and the stress is rising-

Dr. Scott Lyons 53:48 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 53:48 ... but because you're distracted-

Dr. Scott Lyons 53:50 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 53:51 ... and the, the stress is flooding your body-

Dr. Scott Lyons 53:52 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 53:53 ... it relieves you of that boredom and of the restlessness that you felt-

Dr. Scott Lyons 53:59 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 53:59 ... which made you not wanna sit with a book of poems or historical fiction.

Dr. Scott Lyons 54:03 Yeah. What is it that we're not attending to in ourselves when our- we're attending to something on the outside that is stressful?

Mel Robbins 54:11 I wanna further break this down-

Dr. Scott Lyons 54:12 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 54:12 ... because I think it's really important what you just taught us.

Dr. Scott Lyons 54:15 Okay.

Mel Robbins 54:16 So, if I were still in a space in my life-

Dr. Scott Lyons 54:24 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 54:25 ... where I was frustrated-

Dr. Scott Lyons 54:28 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 54:28 ... with my inability to control my emotions.

Dr. Scott Lyons 54:31 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 54:31 That used to be me.

Dr. Scott Lyons 54:32 Yeah. Me too.

Mel Robbins 54:33 Outbursts.

Dr. Scott Lyons 54:34 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 54:34 Nasty tone of voice. Um, unloading-

Dr. Scott Lyons 54:38 Yep.

Mel Robbins 54:38 ... on my family when I had a stressful day at work.

Dr. Scott Lyons 54:41 Yep.

Mel Robbins 54:41 Venting, all of it.If you had told me-

Dr. Scott Lyons 54:45 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 54:45 ... to just take in my self-awareness-

Dr. Scott Lyons 54:47 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 54:48 ... I would have thought for a second, "Okay, I'm taking in-

Dr. Scott Lyons 54:53 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 54:54 "... that I am not in control of my emotions and I'm taking in that I want to change this and that's a good thing."

Dr. Scott Lyons 55:01 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 55:02 And a millisecond later I would go, "Dr. Scott, that's not enough."

Dr. Scott Lyons 55:07 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 55:07 "What do I need to do?" ƒI- uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, and, and-

Dr. Scott Lyons 55:10 Mel, are you revving yourself up out of the contact with yourself?

Mel Robbins 55:14 Yes.

Dr. Scott Lyons 55:14 Oh my goodness.

Mel Robbins 55:14 And so, even the reaction-

Dr. Scott Lyons 55:17 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 55:17 ... that, "Well, that's not gonna work"-

Dr. Scott Lyons 55:19 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 55:19 ... is you revving up-

Dr. Scott Lyons 55:21 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 55:22 ... those old negative pathways.

Dr. Scott Lyons 55:25 Yes. It's-

Mel Robbins 55:26 Holy shit, okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 55:27 It's you staying out of relationship with yourself at any cost, including blaming me or creating a narrative, or whatever other form of revving you use to stay out of relationship with what feels vulnerable.

Mel Robbins 55:41 How long do I have to just sit with it before I'm doing something else?

Dr. Scott Lyons 55:44 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 55:44 Like that's ... Seriously, because I-

Dr. Scott Lyons 55:47 We build up a tolerance, we titrate it.

Mel Robbins 55:49 Okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 55:49 So maybe it's a second.

Mel Robbins 55:51 Okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 55:51 Maybe it's literally one second, and then we build it up to five seconds, 10 seconds. It doesn't have to all be at once.

Mel Robbins 55:58 What's a good way to ask for help?

Dr. Scott Lyons 56:00 So, we build awareness, we build acceptance, and, and in that acceptance or that validation is also a bit of starting to open up to be seen. Because underlying the explosion is something that isn't being seen. So, s- "I don't feel like anyone's got my back in the family."

Mel Robbins 56:19 Mm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 56:20 "I don't feel like anyone helps me clean."

Mel Robbins 56:22 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 56:22 "So I feel all alone. And that reminds me of...", dot dot dot-

Mel Robbins 56:26 Being five.

Dr. Scott Lyons 56:26 "... my past-"

Mel Robbins 56:27 Yeah.

Dr. Scott Lyons 56:27 "... when I didn't get picked up from soccer practice."

Mel Robbins 56:30 Thanks for that. Okay.

Dr. Scott Lyons 56:31 Yeah. Just-

Mel Robbins 56:32 (laughs)

Dr. Scott Lyons 56:32 ... rubbin' it on in. Uh, and so we're starting to build enough space between the reflexive response, like, i- (fingers snap) because it goes like that, right? It's in the blink of an eye when we get into the drama cycle. So we start to recognize, "Okay, can I build enough space between when I start to rev and when I go into that total catharsis-"

Mel Robbins 56:55 Mm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 56:56 "... where I blow up like a volcano?"

Mel Robbins 56:57 And then you're in a shame cycle, and then you're apologizing.

Dr. Scott Lyons 57:00 And then you're in a shame cycle.

Mel Robbins 57:01 I, I have li-

Dr. Scott Lyons 57:01 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 57:01 I lived that for so long.

Dr. Scott Lyons 57:03 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 57:03 And one of the things that helped me a lot, and it's a very hard way to ask for help-

Dr. Scott Lyons 57:09 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 57:09 ... but I s- at one point sat with my family and just said, "I don't want to be like this."

Dr. Scott Lyons 57:14 Mm.

Mel Robbins 57:15 "And I need your help. I need you to tell me-"

Dr. Scott Lyons 57:19 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 57:19 "... when my tone of voice is demeaning. I need you to tell me when I am venting."

Dr. Scott Lyons 57:26 Yep.

Mel Robbins 57:26 "Because it's gotten to be such a lever that I pull reflexively."

Dr. Scott Lyons 57:31 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 57:31 And what was interesting is that the more they would be like, "Mom, watch your tone," the more I would then have to practice feeling the engine rev up. But here's what happened that was really interesting-

Dr. Scott Lyons 57:45 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 57:45 ... is that it forced me, when I no longer could get away with unloading my stress and drama on my family-

Dr. Scott Lyons 57:55 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 57:57 ... it forced me to focus on the reality-

Dr. Scott Lyons 58:01 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 58:01 ... that I was profoundly overwhelmed at work-

Dr. Scott Lyons 58:06 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 58:06 ... and had not prioritized building an exceptional team.

Dr. Scott Lyons 58:11 Yeah. Mm.

Mel Robbins 58:12 And I felt very alone-

Dr. Scott Lyons 58:14 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 58:14 ... and I felt unseen, and I felt like nobody got it.

Dr. Scott Lyons 58:17 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 58:18 And the drama-

Dr. Scott Lyons 58:22 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 58:22 ... was keeping me trapped in a broken system-

Dr. Scott Lyons 58:27 Yep.

Mel Robbins 58:27 ... in my own business and in communicating with my family. And so I, I think what ultimately happens when you have the courage to look at where you're revving yourself up-

Dr. Scott Lyons 58:39 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 58:40 ... or where you're in this cycle of picking fights-

Dr. Scott Lyons 58:42 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 58:42 ... or exploding on people and then you know it's not working-

Dr. Scott Lyons 58:47 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 58:47 ... I think that there's the potential that this unravels something incredibly beautiful and deep that you didn't even realize was the issue in the first place.

Dr. Scott Lyons 58:57 Absolutely.

Mel Robbins 58:58 I, um, love what you're teaching us. I have, I have another question I want to ask you.

Dr. Scott Lyons 59:03 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 59:03 Uh, this one from Shawna. "My oldest is 30 and constantly blames me for things."

Dr. Scott Lyons 59:10 Hm.

Mel Robbins 59:10 "And then when I get upset with her she likes to label me and call me an abuser because she can't get her own way, whether it be for-"

Dr. Scott Lyons 59:17 (sighs)

Mel Robbins 59:17 "... a ride somewhere or a new cell phone. And we have tried the, 'No, you're not getting it,' to just giving in and giving her what she wants. Her father and I are very passive people. We do not like confrontation. What do you suggest for changing this dynamic with our daughter?"

Dr. Scott Lyons 59:33 It's imperative that you put a boundary up.

Mel Robbins 59:36 And how do you do that?

Dr. Scott Lyons 59:37 So, it's saying, what are you actually willing to say yes and no to? And so it's like, "Okay, abuser is not a word we allow in the family." That can be a boundary. It's like, "Hey, when you call me that, it shuts me down. It doesn't get me closer to you, it doesn't m- get me closer to what your needs are. And what I care about most is this relationship."

Mel Robbins 1:00:01 What I hear in this dynamic-

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:00:03 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:00:03 ... is a child using their parent like a blankie.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:00:06 Yep.

Mel Robbins 1:00:07 "Uh, life is hard-"

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:00:09 Yep.

Mel Robbins 1:00:09 "... so I'm gonna call and vomit on you-"

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:00:11 Yep.

Mel Robbins 1:00:11 "... and demand a new cell phone because I think a new cell phone is the way-"

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:00:15 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:00:15 "... to solve all my other problems in life."

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:00:17 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:00:18 "And if you're still making your parents buy your cell phone plan at the age of 30, you got bigger problems than needing a new cell phone." And so-

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:00:26 It's true too.

Mel Robbins 1:00:27 ... I, I, like that's what I hear-

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:00:29 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:00:29 ... that there is a dynamic where the dramatic person is in control of the relationship-

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:00:34 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:00:35 ... and the drama is what makes everybody jump.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:00:38 Yes.

Mel Robbins 1:00:38 And so it just dials up-

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:00:40 Yep.

Mel Robbins 1:00:40 ... and up and up and up.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:00:42 Yep. And when we say, like avoids...... confrontation avoids conflict, that's a, like, that's a flag to me, where I go, "Ooh, we gotta, we gotta peak under what's under the hood in that."

Mel Robbins 1:00:53 Well, here's the other thing.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:00:54 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:00:56 If you are in a situation with somebody who's dramatic-

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:01:00 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:01:02 ... you're always in conflict.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:01:03 Mm-hmm. That-

Mel Robbins 1:01:04 Because not saying what you feel and not calling people out on their shit-

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:01:08 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:01:09 ... causes a ton of agita and engine revving-

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:01:12 Yep.

Mel Robbins 1:01:12 ... for the person who's passive.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:01:14 Absolutely. If you are the person who is enabling someone addicted to drama, guess what? So are you.

Mel Robbins 1:01:22 Oh my god. Say that again.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:01:24 (laughs) Like, I would get into the fight, the space between my parents and referee their fights.

Mel Robbins 1:01:30 Right.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:01:31 Being in that position, look, it's, it, it creates safety for me, but I found that I was a referee in my entire life. I bec- I did it as a profession, doing couples work (laughs) , working with people, and I realized that I am getting something, a physiological revving response by being the martyr.

Mel Robbins 1:01:51 Well, I think actually for you-

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:01:53 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:01:53 ... if, if you're listening to this and you're the passive one-

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:01:56 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:01:56 ... or you don't want confrontation or you think it's just easier to let it slide, uh, Dr. Scott is here to tell you that recognizing-

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:02:05 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:02:05 ... that getting kind of trampled by somebody else's drama-

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:02:09 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:02:10 ... is your own issue with drama.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:02:12 Yes. You, when you recognize you have choice and agency, when you have power again to say, "No," or walk away, then you can actually be in relationship with someone who's addicted to drama. When you are being trampled on, when you have no choices, even for yourself, then you are part of it. And I'm not trying to victim blame. That's not what is happening here, but to recognize our own contribution to our suffering is imperative.

Mel Robbins 1:02:40 Well, it reminds me of what, uh, Dr. Russell Kennedy said-

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:02:43 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:02:43 ... when we interviewed him, which is his research and belief is that all anxiety stems from your unmet need to be loved when you were little.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:02:56 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:02:56 It's the little you-

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:02:57 It's the little you.

Mel Robbins 1:02:58 ... saying, "I need help right now."

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:03:00 Yeah. I always think of anxiety as the telephone ringing, as the sound of the ring of the telephone. And so, when I feel anxiety, I go, "Okay, I can either participate in the anxiety-"

Mel Robbins 1:03:11 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:03:11 "... and worry about worrying, or I can pick up the phone and see what's present in my body."

Mel Robbins 1:03:16 That's a beautiful image.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:03:18 Healing addiction to drama is not about being zen. That's-

Mel Robbins 1:03:20 What is it about?

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:03:20 That is some bullshit.

Mel Robbins 1:03:21 (laughs) What is it about?

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:03:23 (laughs) It's truly about being able to be, okay, I can accurately use the right amount of energy, emotion, attention to ride and surf. I can be in flow. I can be involved. I can belong to myself. I can belong to community. I can be a part of this world and feel in sync and adapt, functionally adapt.

Mel Robbins 1:03:44 And this is why I'm, I'm so happy that you have spent time with us today.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:03:49 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:03:49 Because I think what you're talking about is a game changer, and it makes it accessible for somebody.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:03:56 Thanks.

Mel Robbins 1:03:56 Because you can spot drama a mile away.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:03:58 Yep.

Mel Robbins 1:03:58 You can feel the revving up in your own body.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:04:01 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:04:03 And it is very hard-

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:04:05 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:04:05 ... to cycle down the drama in someone else.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:04:07 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:04:08 But if you want to, the best way to do it is to create more peace in yourself, because if somebody else is getting all dramatic or triggered or they're blowing out the candles with the fricking fire hose filled with sewage-

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:04:23 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:04:24 ... if you can stay-

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:04:26 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:04:27 ... in your centered place of peace-

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:04:29 Yes.

Mel Robbins 1:04:30 ... because you have trained yourself-

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:04:33 Yes.

Mel Robbins 1:04:33 ... to not join in with somebody else's stress and drama, which you are capable of doing. It is a fricking superpower.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:04:40 It's a superpower. I would go the next step and ask you, what can you do with that piece? You can function in so many environments. You can be around someone who's addicted to drama and be un- te- untethered to them.

Mel Robbins 1:04:55 Amazing. So Dr. Scott, are there... Can you give us just a couple very simple things-

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:05:02 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:05:02 ... that someone can do today to start to break the addiction to drama or remove unnecessary turmoil from their life?

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:05:11 Yeah. Coin a phrase. Create a safety word with your family, with those you trust and you love, of them signaling back to you, like, "Hey, you're starting to rev up."

Mel Robbins 1:05:21 I like rev up.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:05:21 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:05:21 I think rev up sounds good. Like, that feels right.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:05:24 Yeah. Start to recognize, what are the things that rev you up? I, I always, I'd say take a media fast. Yeah. Part of recognizing the job of the media is to get and gain your attention and to capture it, and they use the devices of drama to do it.

Mel Robbins 1:05:41 Yeah.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:05:41 They use awe, angst, and anger as the three main devices to capture you and to get you to share what they are sharing.

Mel Robbins 1:05:50 I don't even watch news because I figure if there's something-

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:05:53 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:05:54 ... very significant going on-

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:05:56 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:05:56 ... everybody will be talking about it.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:05:58 Yeah. Do you remember the Boston marathon, the bombing?

Mel Robbins 1:06:00 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:06:01 They found that those who watched the news from it showed s- more significant signs of PTSD than those who were there at present at the bombing.

Mel Robbins 1:06:12 Wow.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:06:12 Because of the massive repetition, over and over again showing, and the added language that they threw on top of that. So, take a media break, is a big one. Choose your words wisely. Recognize that the words you use have impact, not only on other people but yourself. So, if I'm using the word, like, "Ugh, Mel, when you said that, I just feel like you're a total abuser," can I step back and choose my words more wisely that feel aligned, not to the dramatic, to the intensification of things, but to what is true? It's like, "Ooh, when you said that, I felt kind of p- pained."So just stepping back, choose your words wisely. Uh, forgive yourself is a big one. If you're listening to this and you're like, "Oh, shit."

Mel Robbins 1:07:03 This is me.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:07:03 "This is me," (laughs) or, "This is everyone else I know-"

Mel Robbins 1:07:07 Yeah.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:07:07 ... "and maybe, maybe it's me. Who knows?" Forgive yourself. This, this is not your fault. There are a certain conditions, there are certain conditions that created this, this survival mechanism, this way of needing drama to avoid the underlying trauma.

Mel Robbins 1:07:24 Mm.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:07:25 Forgive yourself for the actions you've done and take responsibility for them at the same time, for the change that you can make as part of your own healing.

Mel Robbins 1:07:34 Great. Well, Dr. Scott Lyons, thank you.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:07:38 Thank you.

Mel Robbins 1:07:39 Thank you, thank you for being here with us and for giving us not only this really interesting insight, but also specific things that we can do to end the unnecessary turmoil that we create for ourselves-

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:07:54 Mm.

Mel Robbins 1:07:54 ... when we become addicted to drama.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:07:57 Thank you, Mel, for being such a beautiful support and so vulnerable all the time to share your own life experiences to make this so much more accessible to people.

Mel Robbins 1:08:06 My pleasure. I got a lotta drama.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:08:08 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:08:09 (laughs) Or I did. Oh my gosh. I got more out of that than I thought I would, and I also found it so helpful to use the framework that we were just learning in real time to really unpack what happened with my daughter, Kendall, this weekend. And I hope you found it helpful too, because you deserve to protect your peace. You deserve to get rid of all of this drama that is not serving you, and when you do that, you will create a better life. And one more thing, I wanna make sure I remind you that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to do just that. Alrighty, I'll talk to you in a few days. (beep) We're rolling, right? (beep) (singing)

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:08:56 (singing)

Mel Robbins 1:08:57 Did you fold this? Yeah. Oh my god. Look at you. (beep) Okay, here we go. (beep)

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:09:01 So if you say the word stress, and then notice what happens to your breath.

Mel Robbins 1:09:05 (laughs) I don't wanna say the word stress.

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:09:05 I don't wanna say it.

Mel Robbins 1:09:06 'Cause I literally felt kinda calm-

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:09:08 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:09:08 ... and then you said, "Say the word stress," and I'm like, "If I say the word stress-"

Dr. Scott Lyons 1:09:11 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:09:12 ... "I think, like, stress." (beep) Ah. (laughs) Oh my god. You have a lot of degrees. (beep) I think we got it. All right. Yeah. (clapping) Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Scott Lyons. (clapping) (beep) All right. Let's go. Oh, and one more thing, and no, this is not a blooper. (laughs) This is the legal language, you know, what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode. (uplifting music) . Hey, YouTube. Thank you so much for being here, and if you loved that, which I know you did, I want you to share it with people that need to hear it. But for you, go watch this next. I referred to Dr. Russell Kennedy. This is a 101 on anxiety, and you're gonna love it.