A Powerful Mindset Makes You Unstoppable: How to Train Your Mind & Unlock Your Full Potential

1. 0:00 – 1:16

   Welcome

   1. MRMel Robbins0:00

      Wouldn't you just love to have a powerful mindset that makes you unstoppable? Today, on the Mel Robbins Podcast, Coach Steve Magness, who is one of the top performance and mindset coaches in the world, is here in our Boston studios to coach you. You're going to learn how to train your mind just like the world's top performers do, because when you change your mindset, you change the game.

   2. SMSteve Magness0:24

      Often you think, like, "Oh, these people have bulletproof mind." It's not true. This is why Simone Biles got the twisties. (camera clicking) It's still pressure.

   3. MRMel Robbins0:34

      You'll also hear the riveting story of how Steve turned whistleblower on a doping scandal at Nike's elite training camp.

   4. SMSteve Magness0:43

      I had the FBI show up as I was backing out of the garage, knock on the car window and show me some badges, like I'm in a movie. We've got to give our brain that information that reminds us, like, "Hey, I've been here before. You are capable of this and more." If we want to train discomfort, or train toughness, we've got to do the very small things that make us realize that the discomfort is just a signal. I think the most powerful thing you can do to develop mental resilience is... (clock ticking) Thanks

2. 1:16 – 14:49

   How to Win The Mental Game

   1. SMSteve Magness1:16

      so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

   2. MRMel Robbins1:18

      I'm thrilled that you're here. So, I want to read to you from your best-selling book, Do Hard Things: Win the Inside Game: How to Move From Surviving to Thriving and Free Yourself Up to Perform. And I'm reading this passage that really caught my attention on page 28. "We all get stuck. We don't reach our capabilities, we get in our own way, we feel trapped, like we can't take the action that deep down we know we should. This book is about freeing yourself up from whatever is preventing you from going on the journey to realizing your potential. It's allowing yourself to be courageous. For me, the journey started with realizing that everything I'd been taught about success was wrong." Steve, could you speak to the person who has made the time to be with us right now, who is so excited to learn how to win the inside game from you? Can you tell them what they might experience in their life that could be different, based on everything that you're about to share with us today?

   3. SMSteve Magness2:27

      The lesson that really astonished me in working with elite performers, first athletes and then across the board, is that all of us get in our own way, and all of us are capable of more, but we let fear, anxiety, self-doubt, that voice in our head tell us, "Hey, let's avoid this thing. Let's stop doing this thing." And what I promise you today is I'm not- I might not be able to fix all of your problems.

   4. MRMel Robbins3:01

      (laughs)

   5. SMSteve Magness3:02

      But I'm going to give you the tools to lighten the load, to be able to navigate that inner voice, to be able to switch stress from seeing it always as a threat, but as something that can challenge you and propel you forward, and how to work with your brain and body instead of fighting against it endlessly.

   6. MRMel Robbins3:26

      Coach, I believe you. I'm ready. I'm so glad that you're here. You know, the book is called Win the Inside Game. What does winning the inside game mean exactly, and why is it so important to know how to do this?

   7. SMSteve Magness3:39

      I think let's start with the opposite, which is the external.

   8. MRMel Robbins3:42

      Okay.

   9. SMSteve Magness3:43

      And I think the external is this, is when we tie our identity to our achievements. In fact, there was a meta-analysis, a study of studies, including 70,000 people, that shows that when we prioritize and emphasize the external-

   10. MRMel Robbins3:59

       Mm-hmm.

   11. SMSteve Magness3:59

       ... more than the internal, it is, and I quote, "universally detrimental to our wellbeing." So, the inside game is opposite of that. It's having clarity in who you are, why you're pursuing something. It's understanding that you get to define what success means. It means that instead of just fitting in, you find deep, genuine connection and belonging to those who you're going on this journey with. And when we find that, when we go towards that, what happens is, instead of insecurity driving the ship, we feel secure enough to take risks, to take on challenges, to see again what we're capable of and, you know, do the things that we want to pursue.

   12. MRMel Robbins4:47

       I, you know, I think I just got something out of that. So, I think we make the mistake of looking at people that achieve things on the outside and believe that it's those achievements that are what make them good risk-takers and make them able to go after these things that we, in our hearts, wish we would do for ourselves. But what you're actually saying is, based on all of your experience, coaching elite athletes, Olympians, studying this mindset, toughness, and being a coach for it in highly competitive settings, you're saying based on that and all the research it's actually the opposite. It's those people that have learned how to win this inside game and who are secure in themselves who are actually able to take more risks. Is that right?

   13. SMSteve Magness5:33

       Absolutely. I'll give you a story.

   14. MRMel Robbins5:35

       Okay, give me a story.

   15. SMSteve Magness5:36

       So, Sarah Hall is one of America's top marathoners.

   16. MRMel Robbins5:40

       Okay.

   17. SMSteve Magness5:40

       Okay? She's one of the best in the world. And she reached that level in, uh, later in her career than normally, in her late 30s, early 40s, is when she had her breakthrough. And I got to work with Sarah for a number of years, and what I learned from her is the- the race she had her ultimate breakthrough, where she set the American record in the half marathon, so fastest half marathon in American history for a woman...And leading up into that race, she had this, "I'm gonna set this record. I'm paying attention to the outcome. I'm going with the, the external thing." And about a month or two before the race, she said, "You know what? This is getting in the way. I need to leave this behind." And to quote her, she said, "It is stealing my peace. And instead, what I'm gonna focus on is I'm gonna focus on the feeling." And she defined the feeling as, "I wanna get in that race, be surrounded by a bunch of other women, not be threatened by them, but realize that we're all bringing out the best in each of us. And if I put myself in that spot and I enjoy that, great things are gonna happen." And to me, like, that's what it is. You're seeing one of the best in the world telling you that the way that you set the record isn't to obsess over the record, but to let go just enough and focus on that internal feeling and sensation, and that security knowing that you can take that risk. And if you fail, it's not gonna be the end of the world because you got to feel that experience, you got to go through that journey.

   18. MRMel Robbins7:16

       You know what I hear in that story that is so helpful? And I think we can all relate to that, whether we're like, "Okay, I gotta get into that nursing school." Or, "I've gotta meet the person by the time I turn 30." Or, "I gotta be making this kind of money." Like that external thing. When she made the switch, what I heard was actually the switch from pressure and performance to a sense of faith that if you put yourself in the right environment, and you tap into the energy of what it's gonna feel like to trust yourself there in that experience, that the rest of it takes care of itself. And a lot of that pressure that I would imagine can cause you to choke, and get up into your head, and kind of do things that you don't realize impact how you perform. But your ability to relax in and have faith in just being in the experience is what helps you win.

   19. SMSteve Magness8:16

       It is. I mean, that's the essence of what we call flow in sports psychology, which is that feeling of, like, everything clicks.

   20. MRMel Robbins8:24

       Yeah.

   21. SMSteve Magness8:24

       You can't, you cannot pressure your way into flow. If you feel exceedingly amounts of pressure, you can't get in that state. So ironically, sometimes we try too hard and that trying, that wanting the thing is what is preventing us from actually getting that goal because we're trying to force it. I had a really good track coach who was a mentor, who was the track coach of Carl Lewis. And he told me one day, he said, "Steve, most people have the wrong concept of effort. They think effort means digging down, trying harder, and forcing yourself." And he said, "No, no, effort is like Carl." And what he meant by that is if you watch Carl Lewis sprint, or Usain Bolt, they are going all out, but their cheeks are bouncing up and down, sometimes they're smiling a little bit. They're relaxed doing it, because real effort is quiet. It's how do we get the most out of ourselves while being calm and relaxed doing it, and it's that, that kind of, like, paradox where we think we want to, like, try and dig, but whenever we do that, it backfires.

   22. MRMel Robbins9:37

       Completely. You know, it also, all of that pressure, for a lot of people, also results in procrastinating and getting so obsessed with how it's gonna turn out that you don't actually even do the damn thing. And I think that's a very interesting thing for us to talk about because, you know, ultimately, you create mental toughness in the athletes that you are coaching and in the companies that you go into and work with. How do you define mental tough- toughness, and what do you think some of the common misconceptions around mental toughness is?

   23. SMSteve Magness10:12

       So you mentioned that I have two under two. So our, our-

   24. MRMel Robbins10:16

       What's two under? Oh, two kids under two.

   25. SMSteve Magness10:18

       Two kids under two.

   26. MRMel Robbins10:18

       Okay.

   27. SMSteve Magness10:18

       So, my almost two-year-old has hit the stage where she's throwing tantrums. And my wife is also an element- elementary school teacher, so she's an expert on kids throwing tantrums. And if we look at, why do kids throw tantrums? Here's what occurs. Two-year-old maybe sees something that she wants, mom and dad say, "No, no, no." She doesn't quite grasp the concept of no, she wants it, she sees it, she gets frustrated or angry or mad. And because those emotions and feelings are overwhelming and kind of foreign for a two-year-old-

   28. MRMel Robbins10:52

       Yeah.

   29. SMSteve Magness10:52

       ... right? She goes into, like, freak out mode, which eventually runs its course and then she shuts down. Toughness is navigating that freak out. We experience the same thing as adults, except it has more layers. So we feel discomfort or stress or anxiety or fatigue or whatever it is, that emotion and that feeling, and then we bring in the layer of our voice tends to go with it. So our voice starts to get negative and spiral and talk, think about, "Oh, I can't do this. If I don't win this race or finish this or get this job, I'm gonna be embarrassed." We just spiral out of control. And what happens is your brain gets the message, it says, "Hey, we've got overwhelming emotions, we've got a negative voice that is spiraling. How do we escape this situation?" And our brain doesn't go, "How do we get the best result out of this situation?"

   30. MRMel Robbins11:46

       Right.
3. 14:49 – 24:25

   The Science-Backed Strategy to Bouncing Back from Failure

   1. SMSteve Magness14:49

      I think there is, it's handling rejection.

   2. MRMel Robbins14:52

      Mm.

   3. SMSteve Magness14:53

      It's... Because that feels personal.

   4. MRMel Robbins14:55

      Yeah.

   5. SMSteve Magness14:56

      Right? You apply for the job, you do everything that you, you can to put yourself in the best position, and someone essentially says, "You're not good enough," or, "We don't want you." And in that moment, that can hit deep. And toughness is realizing and, and figuring out how do I create the space between that almost failure in my identity and who I am to be able to say, "I get it, that person didn't select me, but that doesn't mean that I'm not worthy as a human being and that I'm not capable of doing this job. They just didn't see it. How do I get back on the horse?"

   6. MRMel Robbins15:36

      How do you do that with, like, let's say since you coach such elite athletes, you've got an athlete, and this is kind of part of your story too, which we're gonna get into, that just misses the Olympic team or just misses the world record. Intellectually, Coach, I get it, like I gotta have a little bit of space for the rejection and the pain of coming just so close, but then there's that mental toughness skill that is your expertise. What are some of the things that you would say to an athlete that you're coaching in those moments that feel similar to a job rejection, right? Same psychological thing.

   7. SMSteve Magness16:20

      Same thing.

   8. MRMel Robbins16:21

      Yeah.

   9. SMSteve Magness16:21

      So here, I'd take them through a process is first, you can't deny that it hurts. You have to accept and sit with it and live with it and realize that this thing you cared about, you fell short in, and that sucks. There's no getting around it. There's no faking it. It just sucks. So that's number one. Number two is you've got to get your brain and body out of what I call stress-and-protect mode-

   10. MRMel Robbins16:46

       Okay.

   11. SMSteve Magness16:47

       ... where you're feeling all these stress hormones, which pushes your brain to be like, "Protect myself, you know, avoid the thing, shut down," which is our acute response to failure, and you've got to get it into, "How do I almost get into, like, a learning and growing mode?"

   12. MRMel Robbins17:04

       Mm.

   13. SMSteve Magness17:04

       And the best way to do this is simply socializing with friends.

   14. MRMel Robbins17:08

       Really?

   15. SMSteve Magness17:09

       When we're around other people, there's research that shows that when you're socializing with other people, you produce a hormone called oxytocin.

   16. MRMel Robbins17:18

       Okay.

   17. SMSteve Magness17:19

       It's like a bonding hormone. And so it's actually produced when, you know, women have babies to help them bond with the child. Same thing occurs for us in adults. And what research tells us is it counteracts the kind of negative stress hormones that make us feel, like, worthless or alone or whatever have you after stress. So, the best thing you can do is, uh, with athletes, I always tell them, so after the game, if you lose, guess what? Go have pizza with your friends. Like, go eat. And what that does is it shifts you out of that mindset. And then the last part of this process is you gotta build yourself up.You got to give yourself evidence that you are worthy. And here, I like to do it in two different ways. There's o- one, I like to have people have what I call an evidence journal.

   18. MRMel Robbins18:12

       Okay.

   19. SMSteve Magness18:13

       Which is, write down things where you went through something tough and came out on the other side.

   20. MRMel Robbins18:19

       Coach, I'm picking up on the fact that your evidence journal is also part of the training.

   21. SMSteve Magness18:23

       It is.

   22. MRMel Robbins18:23

       It's sort of like the reps in a gym. So can you just tick off a couple examples of some of the little things that people start to write down as evidence, right, that they've survived other setbacks that the person listening might be able to relate to?

   23. SMSteve Magness18:37

       So, some of the things I like to do is, like, look at how consistent were you when you, you know, were preparing for this?

   24. MRMel Robbins18:45

       Mm.

   25. SMSteve Magness18:46

       Did you get your five days a week of training? And people can r- look back and say, "I did it. I did the training plan. I showed up." Did you prioritize yourself? Did you, the day before the, the job interview, did you get the sleep in that you, you wanted to, to prepare for the thing? You're looking for, "How do I give myself the evidence that I gave myself the best shot that I, I could?" And the other thing that I like to do is, like, look through past kind of experiences and moments where it's like, "Hey, I came through this thing." And the reason is pretty simple, is our brain often has a negativity bias-

   26. MRMel Robbins19:22

       Mm-hmm.

   27. SMSteve Magness19:23

       ... where we just latch onto and remember the times that it didn't go well.

   28. MRMel Robbins19:27

       Right.

   29. SMSteve Magness19:27

       Why? Because they sting. Like, we remember the things that sting more. We forget all the times where it's like, "Hey, we showed up for practice when it was raining," you know, "We showed up for the job even when we were tired the night before and we still got it done." Those things just go out the window. So we've got to give our brain that information that reminds us, like, "Hey, I've been here before. I've gone through some tough things." Like, "You are capable of this and more."

   30. MRMel Robbins19:53

       I think that's really important, 'cause I can say one of the things that I have to chronically work on is making sure that my relentless drive-
4. 24:25 – 30:42

   Train Your Brain to Win

   1. MRMel Robbins24:25

      there is a biology, there's something physical and probably neurochemical happening in your body that winners learn that they have to fight to gain resources and losers come up with a different strategy. You might think that winners keep winning simply because they're better fighters, but research found that relative skill didn't explain the winning and losing streaks. It's about what changes in the animal's biology when they either win or lose. Can you talk more about this?

   2. SMSteve Magness24:57

      This is some of the most fascinating research I've come across, and it's called the winner and loser effect. And what happens is we change our stress response based on, like, the outcome of the event, or even more so, our expectation of the event. What I mean by that is after you win, you tend to get a bump in testosterone, and this has been found in both men and women.

   3. MRMel Robbins25:26

      Okay.

   4. SMSteve Magness25:26

      You get a bump in testosterone. And that increase in testosterone makes you think, "Hey, I'm going to be more confident going into this next thing. I can take on this challenge." And what tends to happen is the next time you step into the arena, your brain goes, "Hey, remember last time? We got that bump in testosterone. Let's do that again." So, we're more likely to approach whatever it is we're taking with more challenge, more testosterone, and we have what psychologists call a challenge response. If on the flip side-

   5. MRMel Robbins25:55

      Yeah.

   6. SMSteve Magness25:56

      ... is if you lose-

   7. MRMel Robbins25:57

      Uh-huh.

   8. SMSteve Magness25:58

      ... and then especially if you stew in that loss-

   9. MRMel Robbins26:00

      Okay.

   10. SMSteve Magness26:01

       ... you think it is, like, overwhelming, "This is the end of the world. My life is over. I'm never going to be able to do this thing again," you have more cortisol. And what your brain learns is it says, "Hey, this, this, this place really sucks." So, next time we face something similar, before you even step into the arena, your brain defaults to producing more cortisol to try and convince you to avoid the situation you're getting in.

   11. MRMel Robbins26:26

       Okay, so hold on. Let me just unpack this.

   12. SMSteve Magness26:27

       Yeah.

   13. MRMel Robbins26:28

       Because I think this is so important. Okay, so in real life, not that athletics is not real life, if you've just been broken up with and then you're about to put yourself back out there, this is an example where cortisol might spike, and you might feel the uh-oh. If you've been laid off and you're now starting to go for interviews, it might be an uh-oh, right? If you didn't get into your dream school and now you're reapplying again, you're going, your body is wired because of the sting of that to actually feel that hesitation and protection. Is... Am I getting this right?

   14. SMSteve Magness27:06

       Absolutely. Spot on.

   15. MRMel Robbins27:07

       And what do you want to say to those of us, to the person listening, who is either feeling this way now or who has somebody in their life who now has this hesitation or feels defeated or is starting to really lose their edge? What do you want us to know, Coach, about these moments in our life and what to do about it?

   16. SMSteve Magness27:32

       Two things. One is we can influence this to a large degree based on our expectations.

   17. MRMel Robbins27:41

       What?

   18. SMSteve Magness27:42

       So, what research tells us-

   19. MRMel Robbins27:45

       Okay.

   20. SMSteve Magness27:46

       ... is if we set the expectations which are based on, essentially our brain goes, "What are the demands that we're facing? And what are we capable of?"

   21. MRMel Robbins27:58

       Okay. What are the demands that we're facing and what are we capable of?

   22. SMSteve Magness28:01

       So, if, if you're sitting there and you're saying, "I got broken up with. I'm putting myself back in the arena. I'm going on the date," the demands are, "I'm gonna have to talk to someone who I don't know very well and open up and put myself out there." Now, your capabilities, because last time it didn't go very well, your brain goes, like, "I don't know if you're capable of this."

   23. MRMel Robbins28:22

       Right.

   24. SMSteve Magness28:22

       "I don't know." So, what do you have to do in that situation? You have to... You have two options. You can say, "Okay, I'm going to set the expectations and sometimes lower them a little bit." Say, "Hey, this is my first date. I'm not trying to set the world on fire. I'm just going to put myself out there and go talk to them," right?

   25. MRMel Robbins28:39

       Okay.

   26. SMSteve Magness28:39

       Lower those expectations.

   27. MRMel Robbins28:40

       Okay, so that's step ni-

   28. SMSteve Magness28:41

       Yeah.

   29. MRMel Robbins28:41

       So, one thing you can do is lower, "I don't have to get this job."

   30. SMSteve Magness28:44

       I don't have to.
5. 30:42 – 37:42

   This Mindset Shift Creates Mental Toughness

   1. MRMel Robbins30:42

      is just practice. You have such a fascinating career and we're gonna get into it, um, but you've transitioned from a, my opinion, world-class athlete to an Olympic coach to a best-selling author of not one, not two, but literally five books, to now being a sought-after and world-renowned elite performance and mindset coach, both with, uh, elite athletes, with, you know, some of the world's leading brands. How has your personal journey, the twists and turns of your career and the people that you have been coaching shaped your understanding of mental toughness and how to build it?

   2. SMSteve Magness31:27

      I think I've had a diversity of experiences that you outlined, which has made me realize that my early on view of toughness, which was only through sport, was kinda wrong. Meaning, I grew up in the, like, you know, no pain, no gain, like just push, and that's what I thought. And the other thing that really, I think was an a-ha moment, which was during my, I think my first book, is I got to interview a guy named Matt Billingsley, who is a world-class drummer, who has, who is now the drummer for Taylor Swift. And it was one of my first big interviews where I'm like, "This is awesome. Let's, let's go." And I'm like, "Just tell me about what it's like to be on stage with, you know, 100,000 screaming people and you doing your thing." And he starts walking me through how he's preparing. And as I'm listening to this, I'm, all I'm thinking in my mind is like, "This is how I would mentally prepare for a race."

   3. MRMel Robbins32:34

      What was he saying?

   4. SMSteve Magness32:35

      E- well, the thing that struck me is he said, "I don't really drum much before the, you know, the concert." He said, "I already know how to drum. What I'm doing is, first I'm getting my body loose. I'm going through all these, like, you know, stretching and things to get my body feeling good. And then I'm getting my mind right, which is, like, just rehearsing the beginning of, of a couple of different songs so that I can get in that groove and the state of performance that I need to get in." And he walked me through all that, and I said, I said, "This is the same kinda stuff that I do for a race." And what it real- made me realize is that performance is performance.

   5. MRMel Robbins33:16

      So, performance is performance means the thing that you have to do is the thing that you have to do, whether it's an interview or a date or a presentation-

   6. SMSteve Magness33:26

      Yeah.

   7. MRMel Robbins33:26

      ... or work, or stepping onto a track and running in the state championship.

   8. SMSteve Magness33:31

      Yeah.

   9. MRMel Robbins33:31

      That's the thing you have to do. But the thing that comes before it, what is that, Coach?

   10. SMSteve Magness33:40

       It's setting up your environment well.

   11. MRMel Robbins33:42

       Okay.

   12. SMSteve Magness33:43

       So, what that means is, like, you prime yourself to perform. This is why athletes put on their special race day shoes, they put on their jersey. Matt had the drumsticks that he used for, you know, concert times. He's got everything lined up where this is what it, it's gonna be. I put myself in the environment that's going to invite the action that I wanna take.

   13. MRMel Robbins34:07

       Mm-hmm.

   14. SMSteve Magness34:07

       It's setting your mindset right. What am I trying to do? Am I seeing this as a opportunity to take on, or is this thing that is causing this overwhelming anxiety or feeling like a threat? And I think what I realized, it's not just from Matt's story, but also others, is it's the same stuff. As I said, my wife's a teacher. Early in her career, she was a world-class runner. She represented the US at a, at a half marathon world championships in-

   15. MRMel Robbins34:37

       No big deal.

   16. SMSteve Magness34:38

       No-

   17. MRMel Robbins34:38

       You know. (laughs)

   18. SMSteve Magness34:39

       She's, but that-

   19. MRMel Robbins34:40

       You two are gonna have really fast kids.

   20. SMSteve Magness34:41

       Yeah.

   21. MRMel Robbins34:42

       You know that?

   22. SMSteve Magness34:42

       Yeah. (laughs) Don't put the pressure on our two-year-old now.

   23. MRMel Robbins34:45

       (laughs) Sorry.

   24. SMSteve Magness34:45

       But what I realized is that, again, when she got into teaching, she's, takes the same mindset. She's like, "I wanna be great at this." And what you realize is, like, okay, what does that take? Consistently showing up, putting in the training, being prepared for the next day, and priming yourself, okay, how am I gonna get into the mindset where I am, like, enthusiastic and energetic because kindergartners, guess what? You gotta, they, you gotta keep their attention and you can't do that by just walking in the door and being like, "Okay, I'm here. Like, let's talk about our colors and ABCs," or what have you. You've gotta think about the tactics that you're going to use.

   25. MRMel Robbins35:30

       You know what I love about what you're saying, Coach? Is that I think we get so obsessed about the performance or the thing that we have to do at work, or the thing that we have to do at school, or the way that it's gonna turn out or the result, that we don't take the time to think about the environment or the steps leading up to the thing that actually allow you to step on the field of life and do the thing.

   26. SMSteve Magness35:56

       Who do you wanna be? Who do you wanna show up as? Like, that's, that's it.

   27. MRMel Robbins36:00

       Is that what you ask the people you coach, "Who do you wanna be?"

   28. SMSteve Magness36:02

       Uh, absolutely. Who do you... Because here's the thing, is, and this is something else that people often don't get, is if you look at some of the elite performers, is that who they are on game day when they step out on the field is a little bit different than who they are at home.

   29. MRMel Robbins36:21

       How so?

   30. SMSteve Magness36:23

       So, I'll give the example of Aaron Judge, the baseball player, uh, for the Yankees. Is he- he puts it like this, is, "On the field I want to be 99," which is his number. "Ninety-nine, and I'm paraphrasing, is aggressive. He plays hard. He wants to win. When I take that jersey off, I'm no longer 99, I'm Aaron. You know, Aaron gets along with his family. He doesn't need to be hyper competitive at everything. He can let things go." Again, I'm paraphrasing there, but you see that all the time with athletes because what happens is, like, we all have- we- we all- all have, like, kind of different states we can get into.
6. 37:42 – 45:55

   The Science of Mental Toughness

   1. SMSteve Magness37:42

   2. MRMel Robbins37:42

      When you were in high school, you as a elite runner came extremely close to breaking the four-minute mile, which is a goal that you had had forever. And the fact that you missed it, by a second (laughs) haunted you on one hand, but that failure also has fueled your life's work. What did not reaching that goal teach you about life and how you coach other people when it comes to mindset and performance?

   3. SMSteve Magness38:26

      At that time, I think in the history of the US only five high schoolers had broken the four-minute barrier, so it's something that basically never happened. And I came just shy? And I still can picture it to this day. There's four laps around the track. Every lap needs to be under a minute, so you're literally watching the clock, and you're seeing it and you're like, "I'm still under, I'm still under, I'm still under." And going into that last 100 meters, I can see that clock and realizing, "Oh, no. I'm gonna be- I'm gonna be right at it or just shy." And then I remember crossing that line, there's like 30 seconds before the results come out. I'm staring at the results board, and then I see myself, four minutes and one second. And it's just devastating, because you see this thing that is your goal, it was literally written on the wall of my high school bedroom, where this is the thing that I'm gonna do that is gonna define myself. I didn't care about anything else in high school. Nothing. My parents couldn't get me to care about anything except running. And I fell short. And for a while, I think that got to me. I couldn't do it. I put everything into it and found out that I wasn't good enough. Everything I learned about performance came as a result of being like, "Okay, let's analyze this. Let's figure out how do we get on the other side of feeling this ultimate failure and making it into something worthwhile and good?" And that's where my search for understanding the mental side of sport came from. If I didn't let go and pull the other way just enough I wasn't gonna be able to fulfill my potential because every race was gonna feel like life or death, and it did. We all have our four-minute miles. We all have those things where we create that story in our head, where it's like, "Oh, this is what I care about deeply. This is what I'm obsessed with." And we can't because we care about it, we think that if we just let go a little bit, that that means, "Oh, that means I'm weak. That means I'm not all in. That means that I'm not actually striving for that." But what it actually means is it allows that inner game to flourish because our brain goes like, "Okay, yeah, yeah. Like, the four-minute mile matters. Like, getting that job, selling this many books, whatever, it matters. Like, let's be real." But it can't be the only thing. We've got to have something else pulling in the other direction.

   4. MRMel Robbins41:10

      I absolutely love this, 'cause you also say that the inner game is not about, like, checking boxes. That it's the process of chasing goals. And why does tying the achievement, or landing that job, or getting into that medical school, or- or being married by this date, or having that car that you drive, why does those things on the outside actually end up screwing you over?

   5. SMSteve Magness41:42

      What happens is when we tie our identity to that external pursuit, it makes us fragile instead of resilient. 'Cause our brain goes, "If I don't get this- this goal, then it literally is life or death. I am not worth anything."

   6. MRMel Robbins42:01

      Mm.

   7. SMSteve Magness42:01

      We don't perform best in that situation. We need to take a little bit of the pressure off. We need to have that robustness where you realize that I am secure in who I am, in win or lose, it might sting but I'm still who I am- am. I'm still surrounded by those who love and support me. They're still gonna be here. And that's where we perform best at, because we get to take those risks instead of feeling like, "Oh, gosh. Here it is. I'm (laughs) gonna fall short again." Brain freaks out.

   8. MRMel Robbins42:34

      You know, there's super fascinating research in your book that I think is really important to read right now, because I was really surprised by this. And it goes to this point, because again, I think it's super counterintuitive to think, okay, the world's top, top, top, top, top performers, whether it's in business who you're coaching, or it is the world's, like most elite athletes, they're maniacally focused, they're 1,000% disciplined. It's hustle, hustle, hustle. They're focused on the Super Bowl, they're focused on this thing. The research actually shows the opposite, and I'm reading from Win the Inside Game, page 90. This is research that you write about from Michigan State University. I was blown away with this, that they looked at over 100 years of Nobel Prize-winning scientists, and it turned out that what these Nobel Prize-winning scientists did in their downtime, away from the lab, may have proved vital. The distinguished scientists, check this out, were 22 times more likely to perform, sing, or act, 12 times more likely to pursue creative writing, and about seven times more likely to participate in crafts, like sculpting, painting, or glassblowing. Whereas their less accomplished peers were more likely to be entirely focused on their scientific research. And so, this research basically, you know, as you write in your book, is like that going all in and attaching who you are to one achievement or to the fact that you're the chief resident, or you're married to so-and-so, or you drive this k-... This singular focus actually hinders us.

   9. SMSteve Magness44:28

      It does, and it runs counter to just about everything we're told. We-

   10. MRMel Robbins44:33

       Completely.

   11. SMSteve Magness44:33

       Which is just go all in, be obsessed, you know, only care about this thing, and the research, as you s- said, on Nobel-winning scientists shows it's different. There's research on entrepreneurs, that the ones who are more likely to actually succeed don't quit their day job early on. There's research on athletes that show that they generally, those who make it to the top of the top, are, uh, more diversified in both their sports early on, and then their later interests, because what it does is it makes us resilient. Because if we fail at the one thing, and that's all that matters, comes back to that, our brain and the alarm. We produce a ton of cortisol, your brain says, "I'm losing, my identity is at stake. Like, shut down." If we have other things in our life that we care about, that give us something else to think about, give us other pursuit to kind of do interesting things on, then even though the loss stings, you still have that resilience in your life. And that's-

   12. MRMel Robbins45:45

       It's sort of like being like a stool.

   13. SMSteve Magness45:46

       Yeah.

   14. MRMel Robbins45:46

       So instead of being on a unicycle, you have like three wheels, a tricycle, various things that give you grounding and foundation in your life.

7. 45:55 – 50:11

   The #1 Habit of Mentally Tough People

   1. MRMel Robbins45:55

      You know, in your experience, Coach, especially with Olympic athletes, elite performers, what habits do mentally tough people tend to have?

   2. SMSteve Magness46:03

      What you see is they prioritize consistency over intensity, meaning they don't just shoot for, like the magic day where everything aligns. They're like, "Hey, I've got to figure out how to show up day after day, even on the bad days," right? Even on the days when things aren't going well, where maybe we don't get the full workout in, but we get something in, because they know that if they stack enough solid days after days, then that is what leads to greatness. In fact, way back when I was a college coach, I tracked this. I tracked how many times did people show up to practice and workouts, and how many times did they miss them? And then I ran a correlation between improvement in who showed up, and guess what? Strong correlation. The people who showed up and didn't miss days performed better. In fact, the person who showed up the most during that period was this young lady who came in, and I kid you not, her freshman year, in a race of 100-plus people, I think she was 99th out of like 101. By her senior year, she was a, uh, qualified for the first round of the national championships.

   3. MRMel Robbins47:21

      Wow.

   4. SMSteve Magness47:23

      Huge jump. And if you looked at the data, out of everybody on the team throughout that period, she missed the least amount of practice. She missed the least amount of workouts.

   5. MRMel Robbins47:32

      I mean, it's incredible.

   6. SMSteve Magness47:33

      Yeah.

   7. MRMel Robbins47:34

      And that is what mental toughness creates, is the ability to meet those moments and process what happened and learn from it, right? And step back on the track and grow.

   8. SMSteve Magness47:46

      And so much of it is the story that we tell ourselves in our head, because we get locked in these, these negative stories that, again, define us as, "I'm not good at this thing." And if you talk to, again, elite performers, could be athletes, whoever it is, what you realize is they start to tell themselves stories that are about, like growth and agency, meaning taking control of the situation, "What can I do about it?" versus stories that are, you know, kind of push us down, and where we can't do things about it, where there is no path forward. So it's all about figuring out how to tell yourself that story.

   9. MRMel Robbins48:25

      It's such...Great advice. And as a coach, you're already using their name and talking to them that way. But we can do that to ourselves by using, "Hey, Mel, you can handle this. Hey, Mel, it's, it, it, shake it off." Like, what- what are some of the, you, things that you would say, just reflexively, to one of your athletes if you're trying to boost a shift in their mindset?

   10. SMSteve Magness48:48

       So, number one is I tend to give them an action.

   11. MRMel Robbins48:51

       Okay.

   12. SMSteve Magness48:51

       Actions work better.

   13. MRMel Robbins48:52

       Okay.

   14. SMSteve Magness48:53

       So, instead of telling someone, "Hey, hey, Mel, you need to relax," like, in the history of the world, I don't think telling someone to rela- lax has ever worked.

   15. MRMel Robbins49:01

       Yep.

   16. SMSteve Magness49:01

       So, instead, I say, "Hey, Mel, shake out your arms, you know, get a little loose." And what happens is your body goes like, "Okay, I'm gonna let go of some of this tension. Therefore, I'm gonna relax." Action is number one. Number two is, what do they need to be focused on?

   17. MRMel Robbins49:18

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SMSteve Magness49:19

       Because generally what happens is, is stress, like, either we narrowly focus on the negative-

   19. MRMel Robbins49:24

       Yep.

   20. SMSteve Magness49:24

       ... see all the bad things, or our brain goes, like, scattershot, and it's, like, all over the freaking place. So, what we have to do is say, "Okay, what matters? I'm gonna focus on that." There's research on this. If you're a field goal kicker, and you're feeling pressure and your mind's all over the place, what you literally do is say, "Focus on that spot right there, stare at it, and kick it there." And that will help you perform. And we can do that in our other aspects o- o- of life, which is, like, give it a narrow goal or narrow thing to latch onto and tell yourself to focus on that.

   21. MRMel Robbins50:00

       In the third person.

   22. SMSteve Magness50:01

       In the third person.

   23. MRMel Robbins50:02

       "Mel, just focus on the next right move. Mel, just focus on the phone call you need to make. We'll worry about that other thing later."

   24. SMSteve Magness50:10

       Bingo.

   25. MRMel Robbins50:10

       Wow.

8. 50:11 – 59:51

   How to Build Your Mental Toughness

   1. MRMel Robbins50:11

      So, Coach, how do you train yourself to handle, like, hard tasks? Like, you know, you find yourself not that motivated. You got something that you need to do. Can you train yourself? I mean, you're an elite runner, so I, I'm sure you can push through just about anything. But for the rest of us mere mortals who are having trouble getting up the stairs without feeling winded, like, how do you hack this? Like, let's say you're somebody who's, all right, a goal is, "I really want to get my finances under control. I need to create a budget. I need to, like, kind of cut some expenses. I need to get serious about what I want to save. Like, it's time for me to stop jerking around about this," okay? So, that's your goal. But then you go, "I don't want to face my, like, horrible spending habits. I don't want to look at the fact that I literally have no savings." How does it work in this scenario?

   2. SMSteve Magness51:06

      Start with the smallest step forward where you can make progress.

   3. MRMel Robbins51:11

      Okay.

   4. SMSteve Magness51:12

      So, in this example-

   5. MRMel Robbins51:14

      Yep.

   6. SMSteve Magness51:14

      ... it might be take the thing that is staring you in the face that you spend money on that you know you shouldn't and just focus first on that. Maybe it's every morning you go get your special foam latte at Starbucks, and you say, "This is what I need d- this spending habit is, I know I shouldn't do it every day, so I need to fix this." That's it. Narrow in on that one. And you've minimum viable progress. So, maybe it's instead of every day I say, "I'm gonna, you know what? Next week, I'm gonna go two days a week, and that's what I'm gonna allow myself to do." And what happens is you make progress, and you get these small wins. And small wins give us a, a bump in this, like, feel-good hormones that say, "Hey, look, Steve, you're making progress." And if we can stack enough small wins, then that allows us to take the next step and the next big thing. And that's all it is (laughs) . It sounds almost ridiculously simple. But what prevents us from taking on the hard things is we only see the hard things.

   7. MRMel Robbins52:21

      Hmm.

   8. SMSteve Magness52:22

      Right? Again, I love running, so too many running examples. But if someone who had never run came up to me and said, "Hey, I want to go to a marathon," I wouldn't say, "Great! We're gonna tackle a marathon," I'd be like, "No, no. We're gonna go on walks. And then when you get to your street, I want you to jog the street home." Because all you're trying to do is, say, simple, small progress. And if you can stack that day after day, that is what creates that mental muscle and gives your brain evidence of like, "Okay, I've, I've made progress," and it stokes that motivational fire.

   9. MRMel Robbins52:57

      So, Coach, makes perfect sense, and you and I both know that the second you even do the small thing, that you're going to face discomfort. And even if we just keep it in the lane of personal changes, whether somebody, you know, just heard you say, "walk" and they're like, "You know, I do need to start to take better care of myself. I do need to move my body more consistently, and that's a goal of mine to really make that a priority." And so you can break it down and say, "Okay, I'm gonna go for a walk. After a week of that, I'm gonna jog back down my block to my house." But you're going to face tremendous discomfort because you've never done it before. And you say that discomfort is an opportunity to train your mental muscle.

   10. SMSteve Magness53:45

       If we wanna train discomfort or train toughness, we've got to do the very small things that make us realize that, hey, the discomfort is just a signal. And sometimes that signal is, like, accurate, meaning we've got, you know, you sprain your ankle, and you need to listen to that discomfort, right? It's the pain signal that's like, "Fix this. Get off of your foot. Like, take care of it." So, here's a non-athletic example is we are all, all are kind of addicted to our phones.

   11. MRMel Robbins54:17

       Yes.

   12. SMSteve Magness54:18

       Okay? And what happens is, I bet you the listener have experienced this, is that you feel...... in your pocket, your phone vibrate. And you're like, "Oop, there's that buzz." And you reach for your phone, you pick it up, and there's no notification. It's called phantom vibration. It occurs in about 90% of us.

   13. MRMel Robbins54:43

       Huh. Wait, literally, the phone didn't vibrate?

   14. SMSteve Magness54:46

       No.

   15. MRMel Robbins54:46

       You're kidding me.

   16. SMSteve Magness54:47

       Yeah.

   17. MRMel Robbins54:48

       90% of people experience-

   18. SMSteve Magness54:50

       Yeah.

   19. MRMel Robbins54:50

       ... a phantom vibration?

   20. SMSteve Magness54:51

       Depending on the research, but yes, about 90% of people feel it. And the reason is because your brain is saying like, "Hey, here's this thing you give a lot of attention to and, like, you feel good when it buzzes and beeps and you get a notification." So we're essentially, like, almost mistakenly going to predict that because that's what we're locked onto, okay? Now, if I take that phone away, what happens is you probably feel a little bit of discomfort.

   21. MRMel Robbins55:22

       Oh, yeah. You get fidgety-

   22. SMSteve Magness55:23

       You get fidgety, right?

   23. MRMel Robbins55:23

       ... you're like, "Where is the thing?" You're worried, you start thinking that something might be wrong with somebody and, "What if they can't reach me?" And, "What am I missing?" And, "I'm going to get trouble at work." And, "Where did the thing go?" And, "Oh my God."

   24. SMSteve Magness55:34

       Your brain catastrophizes.

   25. MRMel Robbins55:35

       Yeah.

   26. SMSteve Magness55:36

       Your brain, your inner voice goes crazy.

   27. MRMel Robbins55:38

       Yes.

   28. SMSteve Magness55:39

       I s- I experience it, we all experience it.

   29. MRMel Robbins55:41

       Okay.

   30. SMSteve Magness55:41

       Okay? If we wanted to turn down that alarm, what would we do? We'd take our phone for a small bit and we'd say, "Okay, I'm going to, for an hour, I'm going to leave it in the other room." And at first, what would happen? Your brain would go crazy, "I'm spiraling out of control. What if someone's getting at me?" But if you left it for that hour, at some point, your brain would let go and say, "You know what? I'm going to see it at an hour. The world isn't going to end." And if... and that right there is training toughness for discomfort.
9. 59:51 – 1:11:35

   The Whistleblower Who Shook Nike’s Empire

   1. SMSteve Magness59:51

   2. MRMel Robbins59:51

      You know, we've talked a lot about not only how maniacally focusing on outer success and achievement and all the things that we chase can backfire on you, and you have given us tool after tool after tool and all the research on how we can not only win the inside game but we can build the skill of mental toughness. And there was a time in your life where all of the things that you were chasing on the outside just blew up in your face,And I would love for you to take us back to what was probably one of the hardest moments of your entire life. You were 26 years old, you had your dream job, and absolutely everything just flipped on its head. Can you just describe what the job was and what happened?

   3. SMSteve Magness1:00:56

      I got the job for what was then called the Nike Oregon Project, which was essentially, Nike sponsored an elite track and field team where literally the goal was to w- win Olympic championships.

   4. MRMel Robbins1:01:10

      And you land this at 26, you're one of the coaches?

   5. SMSteve Magness1:01:13

      I was the assistant coach, 26, the youngest professional coach in the sport, fresh out of graduate school. I thought I had hit the freaking lottery. And I was told, I was like, "You know what? This goes well, you're gonna be... This program is going to be yours. You're going to lead these professional athletes." And let me tell you, in running, this is really rare because there's only a handful of professional teams that do this at this level, and it was with the premier, you know, sporting goods company in the world. And I thought I had my dream job. I told everyone I had my dream job. My parents were like, "Oh, thank God." Like-

   6. MRMel Robbins1:01:56

      (laughs)

   7. SMSteve Magness1:01:56

      ... "We are set." Like, "Steve is killing it." And then months into it I started to see things that raised some red flags. Or I started to see some documents that suggested, from the sports scientists at Nike, that suggested, like, there were some cheating going on, some nefarious things going on that didn't fit the rules of the sport. And at first, I remember calling my parents in, in the stairwell at Nike and saying, "Hey, I just saw this document that mentioned testosterone medication, which is a banned substance in sport." And they're like, "Oh, no." (laughs) And at first you rationalize it because you're like, "This is where I wanna be. This is it." But eventually what happened is it just gnawed at me and going back to asking that question, "Who do you want to be?" I have a clear view of how I see myself in terms of ethics and morals and what I want out of sport. Especially a sport like running where no one gets in it to become a millionaire. You get in it for the love of the competition itself, to try and make that Olympic dream that you have as a kid. And I came face to face where I had a decision where, do I keep going and keep my "dream job" or do I stick to my ethics and morals and values and quit, and essentially blow the whistle?

   8. MRMel Robbins1:03:45

      You know what's interesting is you write about this moment, because as you started to tell people, and you write about this moment in the stairwell, that, you know, you risked your career and your livelihood and you ignored advice from friends and lawyers and even a prominent judge who told you at this time, "It may be the right thing to blow the whistle on this. But whistleblowers seldom come out on top. You're risking your career before it even gets started." And you go on to write, "After all, I was at my dream job. I was the heir apparent to the best-funded professional track team in the country. One with a future Olympic champion and medalists. It was everything I ever wanted professionally. The advice family members kept repeating was, 'Can you just stick it out through the Olympics?' I was there for a year and a half before I'd had enough. We like our stories simple. The hero who overcomes adversity, the woman who values are hard-earned and firmly held who prevails against all odds. We think of ourselves in similar ways, crafting a personal narrative where we are the hero of the story. We even have a psychological immune system, a protective mechanism to thwart negative self-evaluations. We want to think of ourselves as good, moral, decent people. We shove away the messiness. As you read this story, you probably believe you would have done the right thing immediately if thrust into that same position." What happened? Like how long were you wrestling with what to do?

   9. SMSteve Magness1:05:27

      Months. Yeah, I mean, it took me months at first to decide to quit, and then once I left, it took me months to actually blow the whistle and tell somebody. There was this deep inner feeling, this gnawing away that just kept occurring where I was like, "Gosh, I can't live with this feeling. This isn't who I am." And then more so I'd see other people who were, like me, young and probably were sitting there thinking, "I got the dream job," and were headed out there and I couldn't help myself but thinking, "Oh my gosh, they have no idea what they're getting into. They have no idea what decisions they're gonna face or what the environment is like." And those feelings were what eventually pushed me to say, "Okay, what can I live with?" Like, "Who do..." Again, "Who do I want to be? Do I want my values to be slogans?"... or do I want them to be things that I can look at and say, deep down, "This is, this... They mean something"? And eventually what happened, again, I didn't, didn't even tell anybody this. I just said, "You know what? I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna blow the whistle." I wrote a long email to US Anti-Doping, who is a regulatory body, and said, "Here's everything I know. Let's, let's talk, let's start that process." And it was the most scared I'd ever (laughs) been in my life.

   10. MRMel Robbins1:07:06

       What was it like to hit send on that?

   11. SMSteve Magness1:07:11

       It was just this experience where you're like, "I kind of know what I'm getting into, but I have no idea. And my life is about to turn upside down, and I'm gonna lose a little bit of control over my life because this other thing is going to potentially dominate it." And again, I'm some shy introvert who just wants to (laughs) , you know, coach some people, help people perform well, and then go home and like, you know, sit at home and read a good book. And I was like, "I'm about... That's, that's not gonna be possible," and it wasn't. I had reporters who s- you know, came to my house and stalked it, uh, followed me at work. I had the FBI show up as I was backing out of the garage of my house and knock on the, the car window and sh- f- show me some badges like I'm in a movie. And it was just stuff that I was like, I, I couldn't even imagine, but you just... There was no other possibility except I had to figure out how to navigate it.

   12. MRMel Robbins1:08:19

       What happened?

   13. SMSteve Magness1:08:21

       The, uh, head coach and the head doctor of the program were banned f- uh, had a ban from the sport. Um, and positive change came out of it, where people, A, understood, and then I think some, i- increased safety a- and guards to make sure that that didn't happen in the future occurred, but it took 10 years to go from hitting send on that email essentially to when the final appeal happened because like there were lawyers and all sorts of things and evidence, and I had to turn over my computer and phone and have everyone go through everything I'd ever written. It was the (laughs) most trying, more than any s- experience I'd had in sport or life. Like, it pushed me to the max of, how do I keep my sanity and not lose who I am and not let that kind of negativity spiral take over? Because there were absolutely points where I'm like, "I don't... I've, I've lost control of my life."

   14. MRMel Robbins1:09:24

       What did it teach you?

   15. SMSteve Magness1:09:25

       If you would've outlined everything that I w- would have ha- had to go through before I hit send on that email, I would have said, "No way in hell," 'cause it was tough. But it taught me that, like, we're always capable of more. And the other thing that I think it really brought home is that... Two things, is that we get to write our own story. So, even though it felt like I'd lost control of my life, I was in charge. I got to say, "You know what? Whatever. Who cares what the external world sees? What matters to me? How am I judging myself on this? How am I defining my life based on this? How do I want to integrate this experience into the story I'm telling about myself?" And the last thing, and I think most important thing is, is that I realized that toughness is not the stoic individual pursuit that we often portray it as. It is not the individual hero in the movie. It takes a village and it takes support. And if you don't have loved ones and the support and the friends who are gonna say, "You know what, Steve? I see you're struggling. Like, I'm here for you, whatever that means." I'd get those texts, I'd get those calls, and sometimes it, I'd take them up on it, and sometimes (laughs) just seeing that text reminds you, like, "Okay, I'm not alone. I've got people in my corner," and I think that's what it is. Is, is that when we talk about doing tough things, is maybe the answer is... We talked about a lot of tools and tips, but it's making sure that you have genuine people who love and support you surrounding you. 'Cause if you do, like they're gonna be the people who allow you to handle the challenges and who are there when you can't use any of the tips and tricks. You just need a shoulder literally (laughs) to cry on or a, a hug to support you through and make you realize that, like, it's going to be okay.

10. 1:11:35 – 1:13:53

    The Mindset Shift that Makes Mental Toughness Simple

    1. SMSteve Magness1:11:35

       Life will work out.

    2. MRMel Robbins1:11:37

       What are your parting words?

    3. SMSteve Magness1:11:38

       My parting words for you, the listener, is that you can do this. You've got this. You're capable of more, and that capability doesn't mean doing something heroic. It just means taking the next small step towards the challenge that, that you want to embrace. That's what it is. It's consistency over intensity. And if you can take that small step, then you're gonna build the momentum to change, you know, who you are and what your pursuit is.

    4. MRMel Robbins1:12:12

       Coach Steve Magnus, you absolutely showed up and just dusted this thing. I mean, i- i- in the rankings of podcast interviews, I would say you broke the four-minute mile.

    5. SMSteve Magness1:12:30

       (laughs) Thank you. I, I... That's... Uh, I try to do the best that I can and show up who I am and help people in who, how I can, so...

    6. MRMel Robbins1:12:40

       Well, I appreciate how you got into that chair, and it was very clear that you asked yourself the question, "Who do I want to be?" And you put on the coach, and "I'm gonna speak power into the person that's listening," and you delivered. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And I also want to thank you. Thank you for taking the time to listen to something that will absolutely improve your life. Like, this is a life-changing conversation. I'm so thrilled you are listening and watching all the way to the end. Thank you for sharing this with everybody in your life that you care about, because we all need to know how to win The Inside Game, and I am so blown away by what we learned today. I can't wait to see how it changes your life, because I know that it's going to. And in case no one else tells you, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you. I love you for listening and watching this. I believe in you. I believe in your ability to create a better life, and you got a roadmap and tools today, so go use them. Alrighty, I'll see you in the next episode. I'll be waiting for you the moment you hit play. And the next episode that I want you to go to is this one.

Episode duration: 1:13:53