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Are You Dealing with a Narcissist? Here’s How to Spot Them | The Mel Robbins Podcast

Order your copy of The Let Them Theory 👉 https://melrob.co/let-them-theory 👈 The #1 Best Selling Book of 2025 🔥 Discover how much power you truly have. It all begins with two simple words. Let Them. — #Narcissism is on the rise and you need to learn how to spot it in other people and have tools to protect yourself. We all know those people who constantly turn a conversation toward themselves, who only call you when they want something, and who have a way of making everything someone else’s fault. Well, guess what? Turns out narcissism goes far beyond that. I’m telling you right now, even if you THINK you know what a #narcissist is, you need to listen. I thought I knew, yet I’m still reeling from all my breakthrough moments. Do you have a narcissist in your life? Maybe you grew up with one. Maybe you work with one. Maybe you married one. Maybe you don’t know what the hell a narcissist is! Pull up a seat at the table with me because class is IN session. Narcissism is a term that gets thrown around a lot these days, so how do you know if you’re REALLY dealing with a narcissist? You have been blowing up my email and DMs about this topic, so @DoctorRamani is here to answer your questions. She’s the world’s leading expert on narcissism and someone I’ve followed and admired for years. I love how she breaks down the topic of narcissism in a way that’s understandable, simple, and packed with tools you can apply the second you learn them. Listen in as she shines a light on the REAL definition of a narcissist and the 5 warning signs you need to know if you’re dealing with one. This topic is so juicy – and so surprising – that you’re going to be shocked by what you learn. One part in particular will change how you approach narcissists in your life from this day forward. That’s exactly what happened to me. I have somebody in my life, a very prominent somebody, who absolutely displays narcissistic tendencies, and I have spent years in #therapy dealing with it. So I actually got out of my chair and hugged Dr. Ramani after everything she taught me and you in this amazing episode! If you get something out of this episode, or if you have a friend that has struggled with a narcissist in their life, please share this with them. And if you think a person is a narcissist, don't even bother sharing, because if there's one thing you're going to learn: you don't want to EVER call one out… That's just one of the many rules you're going to learn to follow in order to protect yourself from narcissistic behavior. This episode is jam-packed with teachable moments that will leave you seeing the narcissists in your life with 20-20 insight. You’ll learn how to not only deal with them but also end this episode with the tools to heal. And that, my friend, could be the takeaway that changes your life forever. Xo Mel In this episode, you will learn: - Where narcissism begins - How NOT to raise a narcissist - How social media changed the game for narcissists - How to tell if YOU are a narcissist 😯 - What “performative empathy” looks like - Whether or not narcissists can change - How to handle the narcissist in your life Time codes: 00:00 Intro 00:30 Meet Dr. Ramani 03:30 Metaphor: You can’t change the weather 04:13 WHY Narcissism is NOT a diagnosis 10:50 Key Concept: Mental flexibility 13:42 The definition of narcissism and common traits of a narcissist 19:03 Key Concept: Narcissists are made in childhood, NOT born 29:54 Key Concept: The 5 warning signs someone is a narcissist 37:15 The impact of a narcissistic parent figure on a child (into adulthood) 45:24 Key Concept: What you need to know if you have a narcissistic parent 50:25 Tool: You have two choices when you are required to interact with a narcissist 51:10 Why you should never confront a narcissist 52:22 Role play: How to interact with a narcissistic parent or family member 55:17 Tool: Live life following your True North to avoid guilt from a narcissist 56:47 Key Concept: How to protect yourself from narcissists 57:54 Tool: The power of authenticity — Follow Mel: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melrobbins/ TikTok: http://tiktok.com/@melrobbins Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melrobbins LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melrobbins Website: http://melrobbins.com​ — Sign up for Mel’s newsletter: https://melrob.co/sign-up-newsletter A note from Mel to you, twice a week, sharing simple, practical ways to build the life you want. — Subscribe to Mel’s channel here: https://www.youtube.com/melrobbins​?sub_confirmation=1 — Listen to The Mel Robbins Podcast 🎧 New episodes drop every Monday & Thursday! https://melrob.co/spotify https://melrob.co/applepodcasts https://melrob.co/amazonmusic — Looking for Mel’s books on Amazon? Find them here: The Let Them Theory: https://amzn.to/3IQ21Oe The Let Them Theory Audiobook: https://amzn.to/413SObp The High 5 Habit: https://amzn.to/3fMvfPQ The 5 Second Rule: https://amzn.to/4l54fah

Mel RobbinshostDr. Ramani Durvasulaguest
Oct 20, 20221h 17mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:30

    Intro

    1. MR

      (ticking sound) So, Dr. Ramani, (instrumental music plays) I'm so excited to be here with you.

    2. RD

      Narcissism is not a diagnosis, okay?

    3. MR

      Wait, what?

    4. RD

      The core of narcissism is a deep insecurity.

    5. MR

      You're not crazy. You're around somebody who's making you believe you are. I'm trying to pick my mouth up off the floor.

    6. RD

      If we only said one thing in this entire podcast episode, is, never ever call out a narcissist.

    7. MR

      Hey,

  2. 0:30 – 3:30

    Meet Dr. Ramani

    1. MR

      it's Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. Okay, I am so excited for today's episode because I've been waiting to introduce you to a friend of mine who has profoundly changed my life. She is the world's leading expert on narcissism. She is also the host of the hit podcast, Navigating Narcissism, which has just been renewed for its second season.

    2. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    3. MR

      She's a best-selling author. She has just left academia after several decades so that she can fulfill her mission to get information out into the world to help people understand narcissism, to protect themselves from narcissism, and more importantly, to heal-

    4. RD

      Yes.

    5. MR

      ... from the experiences of interacting, being raised by, or dating narcissists.

    6. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    7. MR

      So, so, Dr. Ramani, I'm so excited to be here with you.

    8. RD

      I'm so happy. It's so good to see you. It's been a while. The pandemic, you know, changed the game, right? We've been, we've been in touch electronically. Think I'd even done something with you electronically-

    9. MR

      Yes.

    10. RD

      ... over the pandemic. But it's, it's such a different game to be in person. It's so good to see you, and thank you.

    11. MR

      So, I mean it, you profoundly changed my life.

    12. RD

      Oh, thank you.

    13. MR

      And the reason why is because I have, like many people, had a lot of experience with folks that are narcissists, and you, what I learned from you about what narcissism is, what it isn't, the tools that you have taught me in order to spot narcissism and to protect myself from it, have just completely-

    14. RD

      Hmm.

    15. MR

      ... transformed my life. And so, I'm really excited to be able to introduce you to our audience and to have you do the same for them.

    16. RD

      Great.

    17. MR

      And so, narcissism I find to be an absolutely fascinating topic. And the reason why I don't think it's dark is because I believe that when you understand what it is and what it isn't-

    18. RD

      Hmm, hmm.

    19. MR

      ... and when you have tools-

    20. RD

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    21. MR

      ... all of a sudden, there is a light at the end of the tunnel-

    22. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    23. MR

      ... that you're walking down, and you realize, you're not crazy. You're around somebody who's making you believe you are.

    24. RD

      Correct. That's beautifully put, and I, I agree with you. In a way, what it is, is you're giving, you know, back in the day, we would have said a roadmap. Now, I like to think of it as GPS. I'm giving people a... I'm hoping to give people a guide to what they're dealing with, and not in an accusatory, "You're bad, I'm good," way, but in more of a, "This may not be good for me." And to not... The challenge in this space, in the narcissism space, is so many people invest themselves and will, "Can I get this person to change? Can I be better? Can I do different to pull something different out of them?" And it's to say, "Stop. That, that's not going to change," right? It's like trying to change the weather. There's nothing you can do to make Chicago w- warmer in February.

  3. 3:30 – 4:13

    Metaphor: You can’t change the weather

    1. RD

      It is going to be cold. Bundle up. Great city, but it's going to be cold.

    2. MR

      Okay.

    3. RD

      Right?

    4. MR

      I want to, I want to just, uh, go, there was a wake-up call right there. When you're done listening to this episode, and you understand what narcissism is, and you learn the signs to spot it, takeaway number one is, you cannot change the weather in Chicago-

    5. RD

      Mm-mm, no.

    6. MR

      ... and you cannot change the behavior of a narcissist.

    7. RD

      Nope.

    8. MR

      So, let's start at the beginning because people are fascinated by the topic of narcissism.

    9. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    10. MR

      The word is now thrown around-

    11. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    12. MR

      ... all the time.

    13. RD

      Hmm.

    14. MR

      What is the definition of a narcissist?

    15. RD

      Yeah. Okay, so let's get ac- I'm, I'm, I even want to go to step zero from step one here, is to say narcissism

  4. 4:13 – 10:50

    WHY Narcissism is NOT a diagnosis

    1. RD

      is not a diagnosis, okay?

    2. MR

      Wait, what?

    3. RD

      It's n- Everyone's like, "Don't diagnose people." I'm like, okay, I, I roll up to someone and I say, "If I called you stubborn, would you tell me I'm diagnosing you?" They're like, "No." "If I told you you were agreeable, would you tell me I'm diagnosing you?" "No." "Then why are you saying narcissism's a diagnosis when it's not?" It is a personality style-

    4. MR

      (laughs)

    5. RD

      ... just like agreeableness, just like introversion. All of those are personality styles. Nobody's getting themselves all the bee in the bonnet when we say those other things.

    6. MR

      Wait a minute.

    7. RD

      Yeah.

    8. MR

      I thought that this was like-

    9. RD

      Mm-mm.

    10. MR

      ... a diagnosis.

    11. RD

      Mm-mm.

    12. MR

      See, already I'm learning stuff from you.

    13. RD

      So, narcissistic personality disorder is a diagnosis, right? Okay, that is.

    14. MR

      Okay.

    15. RD

      That's a very spec- Three words, specific. It's like, if, let me put it this way. No one would get mad at you if you walked up and said, "Gosh, you're sad. You seem a little depressed." "Don't diagnose me!" We'd be okay with you saying, "Oh, you're sad. You, you seem a little depressed," right?

    16. MR

      Yes.

    17. RD

      Why? Depressed, actually, is a kind of a clinical term, right? Depression, it's actually called major depressive disorder, is a diagnosis. That's actually more on point, but this word has got people so worked up. "Don't diagnose me." It's interesting.It's a pattern that is rewarded by society, and yet people don't want to be called it. I'm like, pick a lane, folks.

    18. MR

      (laughs) .

    19. RD

      So, it's, so let's start here.

    20. MR

      Okay.

    21. RD

      It is a, it is a personality style. It is a maladaptive style. It is an antagonistic style, but it's a style, no different than any other personality style.

    22. MR

      Okay, so just so I make sure that I'm tracking and everybody's tracking.

    23. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    24. MR

      So, basically, we've collapsed two things when we talk about narcissism-

    25. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    26. MR

      ... in society. There is narcissists and narcissism, which is a personality-

    27. RD

      And style.

    28. MR

      ... style that is maladaptive-

    29. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    30. MR

      ... that we all might exhibit at some point?

  5. 10:50 – 13:42

    Key Concept: Mental flexibility

    1. RD

      the greater a person's flexibility, psychological and personality, the healthier the person is. It's almost like your body. The more flexible you are-

    2. MR

      Yeah.

    3. RD

      ... likely the more you work it out, the less likely you're gonna develop osteoporosis and break bones and all that. Flexibility is everything, but it, I would say it matters more psychologically than it even means physically, right? It's why people stretch before a workout.

    4. MR

      Oh, that's interesting because what I'm thinking about right now is there's a, there's a pretty, uh, well, there's a pretty famous TED Talk, by I think it's Dr. Schwartz talking about personality.

    5. RD

      Mm.

    6. MR

      And what he basically says, and now I'm realizing it's the flexibility you're talking about.

    7. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    8. MR

      He, like you, said, "I'm a professor."And I am very introverted.

    9. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    10. MR

      But when it matters-

    11. RD

      Yes.

    12. MR

      ... to me, I can be flexible. I can stand in front of-

    13. RD

      Yep.

    14. MR

      ... that, you know, that, that classroom-

    15. RD

      Yeah.

    16. MR

      ... and I can profess. But the second that lecture is over, I collapse.

    17. RD

      I'm done. That's it. That's it.

    18. MR

      So, so the flexibility you're talking about is that an extrovert like me can shut up and be alone-

    19. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    20. MR

      ... when it matters.

    21. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    22. MR

      An introvert like you can step in front of the mic, invite people into your home-

    23. RD

      Yep.

    24. MR

      ... when it matters.

    25. RD

      Yep. Yep.

    26. MR

      But that flexibility is very limited. It's tied to when it's important to you, but then you go back to your baseline. Is that what you're saying?

    27. RD

      Always.

    28. MR

      As a personality?

    29. RD

      And so, in fact, there is a theory, and I hope I credit it to the right person. I think it's Campbell is the one who writes about this, the idea of the rubber band theory of personality. And the idea of the rubber band is that you, we all have our personality, a rubber band's just sitting there in its state. That's who we are. But we can stretch it. Okay? We could stretch it a bit. But when back to baseline or even at times of stress, we go to our baseline personality, right? The challenge is, is that that person with a narcissistic personality not only has trouble stretching, it's not even the stretching as much as the changing. You see, here's the challenge with the narcissistic personality, which I still haven't described and I'm aware of it.

    30. MR

      Sorry.

  6. 13:42 – 19:03

    The definition of narcissism and common traits of a narcissist

    1. RD

      of narcissism, right?

    2. MR

      So, what is narcissism?

    3. RD

      So, narcissism is a person who has a lack of empathy. And I'm going to talk about more performative empathy, which I'm going to get to in a minute. Okay, so, but they have inconsistent or low empathy. They're very entitled. They're arrogant. They're egocentric. They are chronically validation and admiration-seeking. They need to be in control all the time. They are poorly emotionally regulated, prone to show strong shows of rage if they're frustrated or disappointed or aren't getting their way. They're very easily provoked and very thin-skinned. If anyone gives them feedback or criticism, they're, "Rah!" They just rage very quickly. They can't regulate themselves at those times. Um, they're very pretentious. They tend to be very superficial. Um, I mean, the list goes... it, it's, it's that kind of stuff. Now, the core of narcissism is a deep insecurity. And that's the piece we forget. These are not people actually who, at their most primal unconscious level, believe their hype. They are... the... all of this stuff is to create a- almost a suit of armor around that unprocessed insecurity. The narcissistic person is always fighting a battle against shame. And the shame is, at an unconscious level, people are going to see they ain't all that. So, if anything even pokes them, that like even someone makes a joke at their expense, they lash out to maintain dominance 'cause that's... the... you also want to know what motivates the narcissistic person. Power, dominance, control, and frankly, safety, 'cause all those things keep them safe. If they're in control, if they're the boss, if they have all the money, then they feel okay, though all the power, whatever, the fame, whatever it looks like, then they're okay. That's narcissism. What's tricky about narcissism is there's different... uh, I forgot to also say they're very grandiose. So, they live in a fantasy world. "I'm going to have the perfect love story. Look at my perfect life." You can see how social media took this grandiosity and blew it up into something that... I've been studying narcissism since before there was social media, and I was like, "What the holy hell just happened?"

    4. MR

      What have you seen?

    5. RD

      I mean, what happened was, b- narcissism's always been around as long as there were human beings. I mean, I'm guessing like Attila the Hun was probably a narcissist. Napoleon might have been a narcissist. I think if you go all the way back in the history books... In fact, when I helped my s- daughter with all of her ancient and m- you know, even modern European history, I'm like, "Narcissist, narcissist, narcissist." And I said, "Do you see how much they shaped history to this day?" So, I think that what... it's always been there.

    6. MR

      Yeah.

    7. RD

      Okay? The difference was, back in the day, if you needed validation... Okay, you and I are both old enough to know about rotary dial phones and no answering machines and no social media. Okay? So, there was a time, if you needed validation, you actually had to clean up and leave the house.

    8. MR

      True.

    9. RD

      Right?

    10. MR

      Yes.

    11. RD

      Like you actually had to get up and go. You couldn't become famous, right? Even if you wrote a letter to the editor of the newspaper on some kind of rant, the editor was gonna re- he'd get 100 of these, or she- they'd get 100 of these and pick one. So, there was no public place to do this. So, where narcissists really did their, their, their dirty work was they would harm the people around them. Very dominant, uh, probably cruel to spouses, cruel to children. I think if you look at family lines of this intergenerationally, they'll say like, yeah, really brutal father, really brutal grandfather, really brutal great-grandfather. And it often links to things like hierarchies, patriarchies, like things that are all very, very hierarchical. One person gets the final say-

    12. MR

      Mm.

    13. RD

      ... not because they're a good person-

    14. MR

      Right.

    15. RD

      ... but just because. So, these systems have always been there. And so what happened though is one day, I remember it so well, I, I remember the house I was living in. Somebody said to me, "Have you seen this thing called Facebook?" I'm like, "Facebook?" And I rem- I remember what a Facebook was.

    16. MR

      Right.

    17. RD

      A Facebook was-

    18. MR

      When you go to college.

    19. RD

      ... that group of pictures-

    20. MR

      Yep.

    21. RD

      ... that you'd get in your first year of college. Like I re- that's what it was called where I went to college.

    22. MR

      Yep, we had one at Dartmouth too.

    23. RD

      Right? Yep. So, there's a Facebook and I'm like, "What is this? A college thing?" And they're like, "No, you need to go check this out." They said, "Create an account." So, I did.And I was like, "Oh, this is what happened to all those people I went to high school with. Okay." But at the moment, I thought, "Oh, God. You just write stuff and people like it?" What went through my head in that moment? I remember my kids were really small at the time, and I- it's- the moment sticks in my mind. I thought, "This is going to be a disaster." You know, it must have been like being like a- like a pulmonologist or cardiologist when cigarettes were out. You're like, "What is happening?" And so, at that moment, I thought, "The game's about to change." I had no idea what was going to come with the Instagram, and the influencing, and all. I had no idea what was coming there. But I thought, "Wow, now nobody needs to leave the house." They can put forth a false version of themselves, the grandiose version, the fantasy version, and sit at home and let the validation come in. My concern was that this was going to make their narcissistic symptomatology worse overall, and I think that has been borne out.

    24. MR

      Wow.

    25. RD

      So-

    26. MR

      So, can I ask you a question? 'Cause this is one of the things that really changed my life. When you taught me that narcissists are not born, they're made-

    27. RD

      Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    28. MR

      What is it? Can you explain that to everybody? 'Cause this is- this is a game changer-

    29. RD

      Yeah.

    30. MR

      ... to understand

  7. 19:03 – 29:54

    Key Concept: Narcissists are made in childhood, NOT born

    1. MR

      this.

    2. RD

      So, nobody's born this way. Okay? I mean, I guess-

    3. MR

      So, even in a family structure where you have a grandfather, a father-

    4. RD

      No.

    5. MR

      ... like, these dominant, or mother person, it- you are not born a narcissist?

    6. RD

      Everyone listening to this, I will say, there are four kids in our family and I have a brother who's narcissistic, and the rest of us are really cool, and nice, and kind to each other. So, think of how many people out there who have siblings, they're like, "I'm, uh, my, or my sister's really kind, and my other sister's really, really narcissistic." So, it's- if that was the case, it should appear in all siblings, or at least- at least 50% of them. It's not that.

    7. MR

      So, how does it get made?

    8. RD

      It's- it's made ... So, here's the most likely explanation, is that there may very well be, and this has not been isolated yet, but there may very well be a biological vulnerability to it, and that would be probably delivered through something called a child's baby's temperament. Temperament is the genetic part of our personality. Anyone who's spent time around a baby will know some kids soothe really easily. Some kids are just- they're easy. They're easy, smiley, friendly babies. They're really sweet kids, right?

    9. MR

      Right.

    10. RD

      And as they grow up, they stay sweet, and the teachers like 'em and they have friends, and they're just sweet, sweet, sweet. Then there are those kids who will not stop crying, and they're demanding, and as they grow up, "Look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me." And they're always doing things for attention, and they're disruptive, and they won't sit still. And- and as they s- enter preschool and school, the teacher's always, "Shh. Sit down. Stop that." So, they're already starting to get kind of bad vibes from their constant attention-seeking behavior. It's probably an interaction effect. The kid may not be getting enough attention or attachment needs met. So, you have this biological temp- vulnerability.

    11. MR

      Yep.

    12. RD

      In the hands of a skilled, attached, warm, present, loving, consistent parent, that might be manageable, and that sort of, "Ah?" energy might get turned into athletic interests or creative interests, and that child won't feel pathologized for their style. But I hate to say it, probably for the majority of kids with that style, it's a lot of, "Stop that. Sit down. Can't you be more like your sister? You're going in the corner. You're- you're making a mess. You're going to the principal." So, that kid is getting invalidated every time they turn around. That invalidation, plus the temperament, plus the possibility that they don't have a- a- s- a- an environment where there's a possibility for secure attachment, plus the possibility of trauma, chaos, and neglect, that's one pathway to develop a narcissist.

    13. MR

      So- so, if I can just make sure I'm understanding-

    14. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    15. MR

      ... what you're basically saying is even regardless of temperament-

    16. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    17. MR

      ... if you're not getting your emotional-

    18. RD

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    19. MR

      ... needs met, if you do not feel safe-

    20. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    21. MR

      ... and secure in your house-

    22. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    23. MR

      ... if you have a parent-

    24. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    25. MR

      ... that abandons you, a parent that's abusive-

    26. RD

      Neglects you. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    27. MR

      ... you know, somebody with-

    28. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    29. MR

      ... mental illness and addiction, somebody who's unpredictable, that you as a child don't feel safe or you don't feel seen, all those emotional needs, and that's what leads to narcissism?

    30. RD

      But not always. In fact, I wouldn't say the vast majority of the time. Many, many, many, many people grew up in situations like that, of trauma, of neglect, of abuse, of chaos, and they do not go on to become narcissistic. They typically go on to become rather anxious adults with poor self-appraisal, um, who don't know their value and worth, a whole nother different burden to carry. But the narcissist-

  8. 29:54 – 37:15

    Key Concept: The 5 warning signs someone is a narcissist

    1. RD

      again.

    2. MR

      Well, let's talk about what are the five warning signs that someone's a narcissist?

    3. RD

      So, I would say number one would be that they're very reactive if they experience any form of feedback or criticism. So, if you say anything, even a- even like a really thoughtful cr- critique, like, "You know, I would consider rewriting this paragraph."... throw the paper in your face. "Really? Really? Oh, so you're James Joyce? You write a..." you know, that kind of thing. So, very reactive, very quick.

    4. MR

      Okay.

    5. RD

      Number two, oppositionality. If you tell them to do something, they w- they'll go out of their way t-... They don't like being told what to do. So, you might ask them, "Could you wear a mask?" That was a big one during the pandemic.

    6. MR

      Oh, yeah.

    7. RD

      "Could you wear a mask?" "How dare you tell me to do this." Um, "Could you not park there? That's reserved parking for the people who are coming to get th- uh, I don't know, coming to... for whatever reason." "How ca- these parks aren't... these spots aren't... you know, I'm parking right here." They- if you tell them to do something, it is as though they feel they're being dominated and controlled. They ain't having that. That's another thing is you see oppositionality. They are... Their empathy is very superficial. Some people say, "No, no, no, they had empathy." I'm like, "Talk to me about that empathy." And what you'll see is that it is very performative. It's very superficial, like-

    8. MR

      So, can you give us an example?

    9. RD

      An example might be, um, (smacks lips) "Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Your brother's sick? Oh, wow. That's got to be really, really hard. Are you okay? Are you okay?"

    10. MR

      That sounds nice.

    11. RD

      Okay.

    12. MR

      (laughs)

    13. RD

      Then-

    14. MR

      Yeah.

    15. RD

      ... very quickly, it'll be like, you're... And now you want to talk about it, like, you'll s- I'm the other person now. "Yeah, I know he's been sick, but it's brought up all this other stuff for me. You know, like, I'm really feeling, like, lost, and I'm realizing how much my brother is... how I..." And then the narcissist is going to be doing a lot of, like, this. They don't want to hear it. So, they'll, they'll come in with a... They'll, they'll s-... I always say this, narcissistic folks are great at thank you cards and thank you gifts, but they're really bad at, uh, true gratitude.

    16. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    17. RD

      So, they will be seemingly empathic, but as soon as you go in a little deeper, like you're actually really talking about how your brother's illness affected you-

    18. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    19. RD

      ... now, you'll see they'll tune out. Like, "Ooh, too much emotion coming their way, too much need." So, it's very quicksilver, uh, what I call thank you card empathy.

    20. MR

      Wow.

    21. RD

      Like, it'll seem so on point, but they're not really present with you. They'll cry at a movie, but when that same exact thing happens in their life, there's n- they're, they're actually treating the other person badly, and they don't even connect the two. Like, "You were just crying when those- that man beat someone in the, in the story, and then, yet you were threatening some-... Like, how do you not see?" And they don't see it.

    22. MR

      Wow.

    23. RD

      They do not see it. So, there is a performative quality to the empathy, and there's also a transactional quality to their empathy. They'll be really warm to you when they need something, but when they get it, they'll actually click out. And that's a really bad feeling, 'cause you recognize, oh, they were just nice to me (laughs) to get that thing. So, I'd say it's this inconsistent-

    24. MR

      Wow.

    25. RD

      ... performative, sort of pseudo-superficial empathy. That's another thing. Um, the fourth I would say is egocentricity. It's really hard for them to not hijack a conversation, interrupt people, and constantly make it about themselves. So, even when somebody might say, "I went abroad for my very first trip and it was amazing, and I went on an airplane, and I did this and I did that. I got my first passport." Like, really sweet. It's so beautiful to hear people, and you just sort of drink it all in. The narcissistic person, give them, like, three minutes, and they'll like, "What airline did you take? Yeah, no, I don't take that airline. It's not that great. Oh, what hotel did you stay in? Like, ugh, the hotel I'd recommend in Rome is this. It's, oh, uh, well, I went there. I went to that restaurant." And it just becomes now it's their travelogue, and they're yammering on. They just love to hold court, and ma-ma, ma-ma, ma-ma. It's always the conversation always steers back to them. They cannot simply be present with somebody else telling a story, or will interrupt, or will sort of be contemptuous and be like, "Ugh," like that. They'll be all, uh... I'll do that for the camera, like, like a lot of like, "Oh, my gosh. We're listening to this sort of, like, summer vacation story. Great. What a good use of my time." If anyone's ever watched Succession, I'd say the best contemptuous narcissist performance I've ever seen in my life is Roman, played by Kieran Culkin. It- it- he's n-... Never have I seen that narcissistic contempt so consistently played by a character. If anyone- if you want to know what that looks like, watch Succession.

    26. MR

      Is that the same thing as triangulation?

    27. RD

      No. So, triangulation is creating chaos in environments by-

    28. MR

      So, is that a fifth sign to look for a triangulation, or-

    29. RD

      I would say that it's hard to look for triangulation. You have to look for the soft signs of triangulation, which would be gossip, talking badly about other people, trying to get the goods on other people. So, they're always trying to, like, sort of tell- talk to me about this person, talk to me about that person, and then you'll come to find out they're doing the same thing about you to someone else. Yeah.

    30. MR

      Wow. And what is the fifth sign, if it's not that sort of soft triangulation thing?

  9. 37:15 – 45:24

    The impact of a narcissistic parent figure on a child (into adulthood)

    1. RD

    2. MR

      ... what is the impact if you have a parent-

    3. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    4. MR

      ... that is like this? Like, as in, like, if you've been raised by somebody that exhibits all five of these or you're like, "Oh, my God, I think my mom or my dad was a freaking narcissist," like, check, check, check. How does that impact you now that you're an adult?

    5. RD

      So, it, it's not good. (laughs)

    6. MR

      Oh, God.

    7. RD

      That's the best answer I can give you. (laughs) It is not good. So, let's remember two things. First of all, I'm going to add a 5B to that list, look for entitlement, like that idea of they won't wait in line, they're, they're special, they expect special treatment, and they get really angry if they're not given special treatment. That's another sign to look for.

    8. MR

      Check.

    9. RD

      But let's remember this about narcissism. It's on a continuum. Not all narcissists are the same. So, a person who is dealing with more of what we call a milder, lighter narcissistic person is having a very different experience than somebody who's dealing with a rather severe narcissistic person. And I think that wha- that has sort of muddied the waters in this conversation, because if a person dealing with a milder narcissist hears the story of somebody who's dealing with a really severe narcissist, they're saying, "Well, maybe I'm not dealing with a narcissist 'cause I'm not living in terror, you know, I'm not isolated from all my friends," I still think that person dealing with a lighter narcissist is still feeling unseen, unheard, self-blaming, and all of that. It's just at a different level. The reason I bring this up is with the parents, right? I do think that any narcissism in a parent is never good for a child. Um, but at the more severe levels, it's absolutely devastating. What it does is it hijacks a child's sense of self, identity, autonomy. They s- they don't believe in themselves. They believe that their needs are not... In fact, they've been shamed for their needs their entire life. "How, wha- you want something from me?" You know, like, that's what the parent's attitude is. Maybe not that explicitly. But people who grow up with narcissistic parents, the vast majority become rather anxious adults who are not aware of their own self-worth, who have very inaccurate, um, self-appraisal, usually in the wrong direction. They d- they devalue themselves entirely. They don't trust themselves. They downsell themselves. They don't aspire to things that they actually could do, because in some ways they've so internalized the way they were shamed by that parent. But above all else, they sort of lose their entire sense of self because their parent never let them develop it, because in essence, the parent really experienced the child as an extension of themselves. When the ch-

    10. MR

      What does that mean-

    11. RD

      So-

    12. MR

      ... when, when the child's the extension of the parent?

    13. RD

      So, it means that the child should have no needs outside of that parent. So, if the child goes along, everyone gets along. If they're, "Mommy, Mommy, you're so pretty, and we'll do anything you want," and they eat the way the parent wants, and they do the sport the parent wants, and they excel at what the parent wants, and they, they just become literally the parent and have no identity or need outside of that, everything's gonna be just fine. But that's not how kids work. The whole point of being a child is to individuate and become autonomous. And once that happens, the parent is not interested in that, and they don't like it. So, the child will always feel that they're almost in psychological servitude to that parent. They're not allowed to have a reality outside of the parent.

    14. MR

      Wow. Let's talk a little bit about this sort of whiplash, because, you know, when you're dealing with a narcissistic parent, or spouse, or boss, it feels... Like, I keep reading these comments from our audience-

    15. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    16. MR

      ... about, like, on one hand, you're like, "Okay, there's the tantrum behavior," but you still feel responsible for them. You still feel guilty when you're mad at them.

    17. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    18. MR

      You still want to please them.

    19. RD

      Correct.

    20. MR

      Why?

    21. RD

      Because tha- that... Th- there's a guy named Daniel Shaw who writes about this brilliantly, and I want to credit him 'cause I'm m- gona use his language. He, he talks about s- and it's... And I'm gonna use a technical term, and then I'm gonna bring it down to what all of us, how we'd make sense of it. He calls having a narcissistic parent, he calls it a loss of intersubjectivity. That's a real fancy way of saying, "It's my reality. It's my way. You are n- y- you're almost like a nonentity here. You, everyone exists to serve me. I don't want you to have needs. I don't want you to be something separate." In a healthy parent, the child will be sad and the parent will sort of... Even if the ch- parent's in a good mood, the child will stop and be with their sad child and s- and listen to them and empathize, whereas a narcissistic parent will say, "Um, this is my birthday. What is happening here? Like, wait, you're not... Get this kid away from me. Like, w- how dare he cry on my birthday?" It's that kind of thing, right? So, you, the child is not allowed to have any sort of experience outside of that of the parent's, and then the ch- and the parent really expresses the resentment at the child having needs. Thus, the child internalizes the sense of shame and even guilt over having needs.So, when they go into adulthood, that shame and guilt persists, because that, that, that relationship, a lot of therapists don't address it that explicitly. It's not an easy cycle to end, because remember, unlike an adult narcissistic relationship, the child needs the parent. The child needs the parent for safety, for shelter, for food. It's not like you can divorce a parent and say, "I'm going to start dating again and see if I can find someone better." That is not how this works. The child knows the parent's the only game in town, and identity is very much shaped by that attachment relationship, by that caregiving parental relationship. So, what you're learning is that you're a pain in the neck, don't need so much. You're not good enough, 'cause if you were good enough, that parent would be regulated. That parent would be happy. So, you're doing something wrong, and the narcissistic parent explicitly and implicitly communicates that to them.

    22. MR

      Yes.

    23. RD

      "I wish you'd never been born." Uh, "You're so much trouble. I would have had such an amazing career if it weren't for you." The child shouldn't be hearing that. They'll shame a child's weight, like, "Oh, goodness, somebody's eating too much," 'cause you're a bad reflection on the parent if you don't look the way the parent wants. If you're not doing what the parent wants, "Ugh, my kid, he wants to play a violin, he won't even play sports." All of those things are, the child is supposed to be a functionary for the parent. And so, as that person goes into adulthood, I would actually say it's almost a three-part whiplash. There is the sense of, you know what the tantrum is, you see it coming.

    24. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    25. RD

      You then have the experience of, uh, is this my fault? I need to calm them down. I feel bad. And then you have the third experience that you may still have some good moments with that parent.

    26. MR

      Yes.

    27. RD

      That parent may be really smart, really interesting, really fun. I mean, in fact, a lot of people say, "As I got older, there were parts of my parent I enjoyed, 'cause I noticed there was something fun, but I still felt the shaming and the blaming." And it's very interesting for a lot of narcissistic parents, they like babies, because babies are sort of like an accessory, like a bag. You can kind of take them around, like, you know, and show them around town. Once they stop being baggable and carryable, not so interested anymore, not so cute on social media. Then there's this hu- long period where that child needs more than it can give back. Then the child gets into late adolescent and early adulthood, the parent's interested again. They can go out to dinner with them. They can go to a bar with them. They can go on an interesting vacation with them. They can bring them into the family business. And so now, they're interested in their kid. And for some kids who desperately wanted that love, they go all in on that.

    28. MR

      Right.

    29. RD

      They're like, "Oh, I'm going to play tennis with my dad," or, "I'm going to, I'm going to help my mom in her business, 'cause now, now, now I'm going to get, I'm going to get that love, the love you wanted when you were four and you couldn't quite work in the family business." So, now that, now, now that tr- and that's where we get to this idea of the trauma bond.

    30. MR

      Okay, let's talk about this, because I, I, I, I know that what's happening as you're listening to this, is you're probably going ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, and we're focusing on parents right now, but we are going to get into romantic relationships. But I think it's an important distinction, that with the parent/child relationship-

  10. 45:24 – 50:25

    Key Concept: What you need to know if you have a narcissistic parent

    1. MR

      w- so what do you do now? If you're sitting there listening to this, and you're going, "Oh, my God, that's me, and I do keep jumping back into the fire."

    2. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    3. MR

      It's like this, are they super hostile or, you know, are they loving me? Did I get it right and now I'm getting affection, or, um, are they trying to annihilate me because they're not getting what they need from me and I'm not behaving?

    4. RD

      Right.

    5. MR

      So, as an, as an adult now, if you're going, "This is me," what do you do?

    6. RD

      So, a couple of things. All right, number one, I am not going to sugarcoat this and say, "There's like, three easy steps to pushing back from a narcissistic parent." This ain't TikTok, folks. Like, this is hard work. Okay? There is no three-step, five-step, 10-step, or even 172-step plan here.

    7. MR

      Okay.

    8. RD

      It is-

    9. MR

      I'm going to take a deep breath (laughs) because I-

    10. RD

      (laughs)

    11. MR

      ... I need everybo- one of you to hear, this is not TikTok.

    12. RD

      Okay, yeah.

    13. MR

      You need to wake up and realize that first of all, you're not changing the weather in Chicago.

    14. RD

      Mm-mm.

    15. MR

      And you're not going to change the personality type if your parent is a narcissist or you are in love with one.

    16. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    17. MR

      Okay.

    18. RD

      Mm-hmm. It's okay. So, number one is the acknowledgement, and this is the hardest part of all. Although you're this person's child, y- narcissistic people view all the people around them as objects, like my coffee maker or my tea maker. This morning, I made a cup of tea. I don't think about my tea maker unless I want a cup of tea. When I want a cup of tea, me and my tea maker interact. The rest of the day, don't think about it once.

    19. MR

      At all?

    20. RD

      At all. Why would I? I don't need a cup of tea. Right? And that's how a narcissistic person reso- thinks about other people, "Do I need something from you?"

    21. MR

      Really?

    22. RD

      Yeah. "Do I need something from you? Oh, yeah, I do need something from you. Now you're my central focus. I'm thinking about only you." But just like, if that tea maker waddled over to me and said, "Hey, could you listen to me?" I'd be like, "What? You're a tea maker." Like, "Go away. This is not Beauty and the Beast. Appliances do not talk. Get the hell away from me. You are a tea maker. Learn your place." So, for a narcissistic person, we all serve a function for them, whether it's your, their lover, whether you're their accountant, whether you're their cleaner. That's why narcissistic people always have like, a team around them. It's always about the team. I'm like, "Of course you have a team around you, because everyone serves a function for you."

    23. MR

      I'm trying to pick my mouth up off the floor, because this is a revolutionary idea for me. That a narcissistic person isn't ever thinking about you unless they need something from you.

    24. RD

      Exactly. Exactly.

    25. MR

      And yet, if you have ever been in a serious relationship with a narcissist-

    26. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    27. MR

      ... or you were raised by one-You think about them all the time.

    28. RD

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. All the time. All the... You're ruminating them. They're not thinking about you, unless they need something from you or you're a blockade to something they need. Right? Like, you're not signing the deal, or you're, because you're sick they can't go to something. Now they're thinking about you 'cause they're mad at you. Right? But it's, it's... So it's, going back to your parents-

    29. MR

      Oh, I'm s- I'm sorry. I'm like-

    30. RD

      Going back to that parenting issue. So, as you get into adulthood, you are an object to them. So like, "What can I do? What can I this?" Ah, you, you're never gonna be able to read their mind and give them everything they want. There is noth- there, you will never be able to... None of us are mind readers. You're never gonna be able to fully anticipate. And what's so sad is, people who are all in with narcissistic parents, or even narcissistic partners will, will literally try to devote their lives to anticipating the narcissistic person's every need so they can finally, finally win them over, that they could do it just right. So, that's not possible, 'cause none of us are mind readers. Remember that.

  11. 50:25 – 51:10

    Tool: You have two choices when you are required to interact with a narcissist

    1. RD

      So, I say to people, "You got two options here. Either be with the, the guilt of saying no, or go to the dinner with realistic expectations. That when you s-" and almost make it a game, like a personal bingo. You know, it's not quite a drinking game, 'cause if you took a shot every time they invalidated you-

    2. MR

      (laughs) You're wasted.

    3. RD

      ... it'd be loaded before the main course came. But if you... I, I literally have done this where I'm like, "Okay, I'm gonna collect points at this dinner. For every five invalidations, I'm going to go, like, I'm gonna get a scoop of ice cream." All right? And then like, and then it's like a little thing that pays out during the week. Like, "Tuesday, I'm going to get ice cream, and on Thursday I might get a massage." Like, 15 invalidations is usually a massage for me. So, I'm like, I'm-

    4. MR

      And that keeps you objective too.

    5. RD

      Yeah, and I'm like, I'm going in. I'm like, "Do it again. Do it again. Do it again. We're at 13. I really want the

  12. 51:10 – 52:22

    Why you should never confront a narcissist

    1. RD

      massage." So-

    2. MR

      So, so let me ask you this question. So, should you ever confront a narcissist? Like, somebody's gonna come listen to this podcast and be like, "All right, that's it. I'm calling Dad."

    3. RD

      Nope. Nope. I can't... If we on- if we only said one thing in this entire podcast episode, is never ever call out a narcissist. We, we would be giving the single most brilliant piece of advice.

    4. MR

      Why do you never call out a narcissist?

    5. RD

      Uh, I should... I'm gonna temper that with, it depends on what you want. If you're doing this because you wanna say, it's like a gotcha moment, "Ha ha, I see you." Okay. And they're gonna rage at you, and they're going to scream at you, and there might be a smear campaign now. And they may be telling everybody out there that not only are you an ungrateful kid, but you are the narcissist, and you're the one who's harmful, and everybody needs to keep their distance from you. And, and, uh, I mean, they will really do such a number on you that... And they're not gonna change. So, if all it is for you to say, "I see you," I think the better way to do, to play that is you see them, now change your behavior. Stop being supply for them. Stop engaging with them. Stop taking the bait.

  13. 52:22 – 55:17

    Role play: How to interact with a narcissistic parent or family member

    1. RD

    2. MR

      So, are you saying if you call home and the first thing out of somebody's mouth is, "Haven't heard from you in a long time," you should not say, "You know, the phone works both ways"?

    3. RD

      No way. No. If you know this person's narcissistic, absolutely not. So, they say, "Haven't heard from you in a long time," and you'd say, "No, you haven't."

    4. MR

      Oh.

    5. RD

      And well, and then, but where are they gonna go with that? 'Cause what you've done is you've taken away the volley. They're playing tennis. You need to play solitaire.

    6. MR

      Can you give us some other role plays?

    7. RD

      Um, so put s- put another conversation starter out there for me.

    8. MR

      Um, uh, why don't you come to Thanksgiving?

    9. RD

      O- uh, and you, and your, and the assumption in this one is, why don't you come to Thanksgiving, is this person's committed s- fully to not going this year.

    10. MR

      Yeah, they were- ev- every, they, uh, you gotta come to me.

    11. RD

      Okay. So, you go... This is where, and I'm gonna step back before I role play that. I'm going to introduce the concept of true north. Okay? The true, true north.

    12. MR

      True north. Okay.

    13. RD

      True north is a big healing, what we call healing technique for folks. Or at least it's a more of a management technique than healing, I should say. True north is that you need to figure out what in your life is worth fighting for. So, maybe you're not going to Thanksgiving this year, not only 'cause you don't want to see them, but it's your, your, your kid's playing football that day.

    14. MR

      Yeah.

    15. RD

      All right? And you do not want to miss that football game. Or you have, you do actually have a big deadline at work the Monday after Thanksgiving, and you wanna get it done. Or you said, "To heck with it. This is the year we're actually gonna go to, uh, uh, we're gonna go camping, or we're gonna go to Hawaii for Thanksgiving, okay?"

    16. MR

      Yep.

    17. RD

      "Y- because that's what my family has always wanted to do." My, you know, your, whatever. Your friends. You're, you've decided to take a trip with your friends. Your true north is, what is healthy for you? Okay? So, you've got to be clear on that.

    18. MR

      It sounds like it's a balance between how much guilt can you tolerate, right?

    19. RD

      Kind of. It is and it isn't. Because the guilt is-

    20. MR

      Self-imposed.

    21. RD

      ... people feel guilt, people feel guilt when they believe they're doing something wrong.

    22. MR

      Oh.

    23. RD

      So, to which I'd say, "What did you do wrong?" You feel guilt if you committed a crime, feel guilt if you stole something, you feel guilt if you cheated on someone. So, when people, my clients tell me all the time, "I feel guilty," I'm like, "Tell me what you did wrong." And that's when I get the pause. They're like, "I don't want to go to Thanksgiving." I'm like, "Where's... I'm, I'm sorry. So help me understand where that's wrong." "Well, that's what they want." I'm like, "I hear that, but how is that wrong?" Because the axiom to that is not doing what they want is wrong.

    24. MR

      Okay, everybody, did you hear that? This is a huge takeaway. So, if the lights are going off in your head and you're, and you're starting to go, "Wait a minute, I definitely either had a parent that had some narcissistic personality, or I'm in a relationship with somebody like this," the reason why you feel guilty is because if you don't do what they say, that's wrong.

    25. RD

      Correct. That's exactly... You think, you were-

    26. MR

      And that's what you were trained to believe.

    27. RD

      You were trained

  14. 55:17 – 56:47

    Tool: Live life following your True North to avoid guilt from a narcissist

    1. RD

      to believe that is, and if you had a parent like that, and let's say this is even happening in your, your committed relationship or your marriage, then that's another time when you were, you're almost indoctrinated into believing not doing what another person wants is wrong. And I, I, like, make the argument about it for me.

    2. MR

      This is foundational.

    3. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    4. MR

      Like, uh, because what happens is the tantrum throwing.

    5. RD

      Yes.

    6. MR

      The shaming.

    7. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    8. MR

      The gas. "I didn't say that." Like, all the adolescent-

    9. RD

      Uh-huh.

    10. MR

      ... tantrum behavior.

    11. RD

      Correct. Adolescent, toddler.

    12. MR

      Yeah, is what actually has trained you-

    13. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    14. MR

      ... to believe that not doing something that that person wants is wrong. That's why you feel guilty.

    15. RD

      That's why you feel guilty.

    16. MR

      Holy shit.

    17. RD

      Yeah.

    18. MR

      Wow.

    19. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    20. MR

      How the hell do you get rid of that programming?

    21. RD

      Well, first of, first of all is, one of the only paths forward to healing is getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. Right? That's a-

    22. MR

      I don't like that answer.

    23. RD

      And I know people don't like the answer, and I'll tell you why. Everyone goes to the damn gym, and they lift the weights and they do the this, and they're CrossFitting that, and, and they're in pain? 'Cause they want a hot ass, or they want abs, or they want arms, and they wanna look good. Why are you willing to tolerate pain there, and you're not willing to tolerate pain here? Pain's pain, folks.

    24. MR

      Oh, okay. I, I mean, I'm, I'm, I, I thought I had learned everything there was to learn about narcissism from you, but I'm having major breakthroughs right now, and insights. Uh, so

  15. 56:47 – 57:54

    Key Concept: How to protect yourself from narcissists

    1. MR

      should authentic or empathetic people... how do we protect ourselves from narcissists in life?

    2. RD

      It's a tough one. I, I think that it's every so often, Mel, every so often, and they're like that perfect seashell that's not cracked you find on the beach. I find these people who have actually never encountered narcis- (clears throat) I find these people who have never encountered narcissism. They had two loving parents. They grew up in a happy home. They love all their siblings. They met someone in college. They fell in love. They both got good jobs.

    3. MR

      I hate these people, don't you?

    4. RD

      I... No, I'm just kidding.

    5. MR

      (laughs)

    6. RD

      I, well, I, I, I do.

    7. MR

      I wish this was everybody, honestly.

    8. RD

      I, I'm happy for them. I'm happy for them. And those people just, like, you talk about narcissism to them, and I could be talking about, like, the, you know, uh, like, just some sort of, like, they think I have a tinfoil hat on. They really do. And I get it. I get it, because they have absolutely no schema for that. But going back to the world of the authentic and the empathic, that's also, especially the authentic folks,

  16. 57:54 – 1:15:40

    Tool: The power of authenticity

    1. RD

      it's a rare group. Being authen- Here's the thing about authenticity, Mel, and something we lose, and I think it really gets brought into stark relief when we're talking about narcissism. People talk about authenticity like it's an easy thing. The hardest thing in the world is to be authentic, because to be authentic is to be unpopular. To be authentic is to blaze your own trail, even when other people are cluck-clucking at you and stigmatizing you, and looking, giving you the side-eye. What are you doing? Like, people don't do that. You know, you're supposed to do the sort of missionary position, follow the rules kind of life. And authentic people say, "No, that's not who I am. That's not what I'm about." Authentic people are very clear on their values, what they stand for, what matters for them. And so, I'm not saying that authentic people don't feel guilt. They'll feel tremendous guilt, but they'll also feel committed to the potential within them and the people they care about, and to say, ultimately, giving into this person's abuse is not doing, honestly, me any favors, for sure. It's not doing my kids any favors. It's not doing the people I care about any favors, and it's actually not doing them any favors, 'cause it's reinforcing them in this sick cycle, and I don't want to be part of this. So, we've got to get away from the idea that authenticity is easy. Authenticity, authentic people, actually, often have smaller social networks than other people-

    2. MR

      Why?

    3. RD

      ... because they, they've culled away all the dead weight. They've cleared away all the branches that are, uh, that are dead. Like, they, they said, "No, I will not have people around me that are unhealthy, that are invalidating." I mean, it's, it's, it is a brave stand, and it's not an ev- easy stand. And some people say authentic people are selfish, they're cold, they're, um, uppity. They'll, you know, that they'll, they'll really paint them in, like, "Oh, who do you think you are that you get to do that?" And all the authentic person is doing is trying to draw boundary against unhealthy people. It is not easy to do, because a lot of people feel like you gotta go, you have to, you have to put up with the unhealthy people. That's what we do. Families stick together, and all that kind of stuff. And to which I say, "No." I mean, why would we punish a person for, again, genetic bad luck for the rest of their lives?

    4. MR

      Mm. Is it normal for people to listen to you and start to worry, "Am I a narcissist?" 'Cause I'm also sitting here going, "Oh, my God." That, like, uh, uh, uh, do I... I kind of sound like this sometimes, like when I'm frustrated. Like, is this me? Like, now I'm starting to worry. Like, did this get, like, "Aah," is this my personality?

    5. RD

      So, here's the thing. No- all of us-... all of us, and sometimes even every day, have moments when we're not graceful. What we need to look at is how quickly and how authentically we make amends. So, if you snap at someone at work, that you catch that, and within, you know, very quickly say, "Uh, that was not okay. I am s- I, I, I take responsibility for that. You, you were not responsible for that. I was having a bad day, but that's not your problem, and so I apologize." That we- when we, when we do those things. Now, no narcissistic person in the world is ever gonna do that, unless a publicist makes them.

    6. MR

      (laughs)

    7. RD

      Or, if-

    8. MR

      And then you can tell-

    9. RD

      And then you can tell-

    10. MR

      ... that they don't wanna do it.

    11. RD

      Or, or, um, because they're trying to save face, or they'll say, my favorite, the, the narcissistic apology, which is, "I'm sorry you feel that way." That's how narcissists apologize. "I'm sorry you feel that way." Oh, I'm like, oh, hell no. The minute I s- I hear that, I'm like, this conversation's done. And I don't storm off. I usually, I'm very... You gotta learn your sort of, like, nod, Mona Lisa smile and say, you know, "I gotta jump." Now some people say that's passive-aggressive. Well, there's no, there's no path forward.

    12. MR

      Right.

    13. RD

      And if I'm not in the mood for a fight, you'll say, you know, "Okay, you know, I, I gotta, I, I gotta jump. Thanks again. Are we..." And then close off the conversation or whatever else needs to get done.

    14. MR

      Now, before we jump into the dynamics of romantic relationships-

    15. RD

      Mm-hmm.

    16. MR

      ... and narcissism, and how to s- how to know whether or not you're dating one or you're married to one, although I'd suppose if you're married to one you probably know it. But can you talk a little bit about family roles where there are narcissistic parents? I found that to be fascinating.

    17. RD

      Yeah. So in a narcissistic family, and, and is assuming there's more than one child, and even if there's not, that child could still be placed in a role, we have some sort of classical roles that kids fall into. And roles are never healthy in a family system, because in a way you can see that each of these childs, children are either being put in the role or have taken on this role as a survival need, versus a child just getting to be a child, right?

    18. MR

      Mm.

    19. RD

      So, the number one classical role is sort of the golden child, right? This is the child who has been anointed by the narcissistic parent. It could be that that child is, resembles the parent. The child is, um, getting a lot of validation from the world. They may be good at something, and so that they're, they're the one who is, you know, always, you know, I don't know, doing well at sports, or k- people like them, or they sing well, or whatever it may be that the parent is, like, getting a lot of validation. So, they make that child the golden child. Now, usually w- to have a golden child, you need another sibling to sort of create that dynamic, because that other child's not the golden child, right? So it's clear there's sort of a chosen child in the household. Gold- do golden children remain golden children permanently? Not necessarily. If there's a point at which the golden child decides to step out of ranks or do something that aggravates the narcissistic parent, they will... The crown shall be removed from their head. The other, the other pr- primary role in these families is the scapegoat.

    20. MR

      Mm.

    21. RD

      Now, the scapegoat gets the worst of it, and I would say in some cases, the scapegoats get it so terribly in narcissistic families, they come out of childhood l- with something that looks like complex trauma. They are constantly criticized, compared to other kids. They're literally not given... One kid's tuition will be paid for and the scapegoats will not. The scapegoat will be expected to get a summer job to help the family, the golden child will get to go to some special camp. Like, it's, it's a stark market difference. The scapegoat will endure abuse that other siblings in the family don't, um, don't endure. Why is the scapegoat the scapegoat? It's hard to know.

    22. MR

      Mm.

    23. RD

      It's, it, I've heard every reason in the book. The scapegoat simply knows they're the scapegoat. And it is actually a... 'Cause the scapegoat is a terrible legacy to take into adulthood, 'cause they will forever wonder, "Why? What was it about me?" So-

    24. MR

      What do you have to say to somebody who's listening saying, "That was me"?

    25. RD

      You know, I would s- I, we, we do, we, well, we'll start with trauma work. You know, validation of their experience, 'cause for a lot of scapegoats, they were told, "You were treated no differently." So, uh, we, we start with straight-up, "You were treated differently. What, that happened." And that's the foundation, and you, you kind of jump, you keep, grow from there. And that this was real, and, and that, then you explain to them how narcissistic families work and how narcissistic personalities work, 'cause ultimately it wasn't their fault.

    26. MR

      Hm.

    27. RD

      It wasn't the scapegoat's fault. Um, the next type is what I call sort of the helper. You know, the helper child is almost like a, sort of a personal assistant. They are constantly exhausting themselves to do things for the parent. They may watch younger siblings. They might try to keep the house clean. They'll... And they'll feel like they have to do this not to be, like, a responsible player in the household, like everyone doing their part, but because they feel that this is the only way to get n- seen, recognized, or avoid the narcissistic parent's abuse. Another type of child we see is the fixer. The fixer is k- is almost like this mini-diplomat who's trying to insert themselves in at all times, trying to make sure... Like, for example, if you have a narcissistic parent and a non-narcissistic parent, there can be really terrible verbal abuse, sometimes even violence, but more verbal/emotional abuse, and that fixer child will constantly be inserting themselves, and they're almost like a court jester, to keep the, um, parents from fighting. They will be up, they will stay up l- later than they want to to make sure that the parents don't argue. They'll try to... They'll often sometimes even fall on the grenade so that there's not, they'll, they'll sometimes try to protect the, uh, scapegoat. So that's the fixer.

    28. MR

      One thing that really struck me in what you're saying is, having one parent versus two. I guess I just assumed there was always one.

    29. RD

      Oh, there can be two. Two narcissists can get together-

    30. MR

      Two narcissists are attracted to each other?

Episode duration: 1:17:03

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