The Mel Robbins PodcastBefore You Waste Time, Watch This with Dr. K (@HealthyGamerGG )
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
145 min read · 28,994 words- 0:00 – 2:59
Intro
- MRMel Robbins
What exactly is modern technology doing to our brains?
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
The short answer is, a lot. (instrumental music plays) Technology used to activate just one part of our brain, but then over time, people are adding more features to technology. Now, it's my identity is becoming virtual, my profession is becoming virtual, my relationships are becoming virtual. It does everything. When we use technology to suppress our emotions, our brain does not process emotions. Because what does technology offer you? It offers you an instant relief of boredom. It is your resistance to boredom that will allow you to resist technology. If you wanna get control of your technology, what you need to learn how to do is- (clock ticks)
- MRMel Robbins
Hey, it's your friend Mel. I am so glad you're here with me today. It is always such an honor to spend some time together, and I really wanna acknowledge you for choosing to listen to something that will help you create a better life. I mean, I just think it's really cool that you're taking time for yourself, and I just love spending that time with you. If you are a brand new listener to the Mel Robbins Podcast, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. I'm Mel Robbins. I'm on a mission to empower and inspire you with tools and expert resources that will help you create a more meaningful life. Now, a couple weeks ago, I heard a professor from NYU say that you and I are gonna spend 20 years of our life on our phone. 20 years. And when I heard him say that, it scared the hell out of me and I wanted to figure out what I could do to change that, 'cause I don't want 20 years to go by and I've just wasted it scrolling on social media. So I reached out to Dr. K, who is a Harvard-trained psychiatrist. He has a massive following on YouTube and also on Twitch. He has hopped on a plane and he is here today in our Boston studios to talk to you about how technology is changing your brain, your relationships, and your identity. And the fact is, technology is not going anywhere. So it's not a matter of getting rid of it, it's all about, how do you get control of it so it doesn't control you? I'm so excited to be able to share this episode with you, because I know it's gonna change your life. It's gonna change how you think about this very important topic, but it's also gonna be a resource that you're gonna wanna share with everyone that you know and love. Alrighty, let's jump into this with Dr. K. Dr. K.-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Well-
- MRMel Robbins
Thank you for jumping on a plane. Thank you for being-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
(laughs) .
- MRMel Robbins
... here in Boston. I have been dying to talk to you, and I cannot wait to dig into all things just brain and neuroscience and gaming and addiction and what tech is doing to us. But I wanna start by saying, could you tell the person that's listening right now what they might experience in terms of a change in their life if they really take to heart everything you're about to teach us today?
- 2:59 – 5:41
Do you feel like technology is consuming all your time?
- MRMel Robbins
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
(smacks lips) So I, I think the biggest thing that they're gonna learn is how to stop letting technology shape you. So technology is shaping all of us, whether we like it or not. If you're using technology, it is shaping the way that you think, it is shaping the way that you perceive the world, it is shaping your sense of identity, it is shaping what you want, and all without your knowledge or consent. And so, in order to turn yourself into the person that you want to be, you have to be aware of how technology is shaping you and counteract that influence. And then if you want it, if you wanna be that way, then go for it. But all of this is happening without our knowledge or awareness, and so that's what we really need to change.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh my G- I, now I'm really, like, in.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
It's crazy. So th- I mean, there are research studies on something called the Attention Marketplace-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
... which is like, people have started to realize that your thoughts and your mind are a commodity to be bought and sold. So there are like resur- there's research on something called neuroeconomics, which is like shaping things like purchasing behavior, what you wanna buy. It's not even advertising, it's gone deeper than that, because we're doing brain scans and stuff like that. Um, and so, like, people are like literally studying and competing for your attention. So all the big platforms are fighting for your attention, because the more of your attention they get, the more money they make. The problem is, it doesn't matter which platform wins, the one person who always loses is you, because you don't have control of your attention.
- MRMel Robbins
Holy cow. I wanna try to just extrapolate this for somebody who maybe has never thought about the way that technology is controlling your life and shaping you and-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... your brain and grabbing your attention. I think a lot of us are aware that there was a lot of science around the way a retail store is laid out. Like, when you walk in, a lot of stores use fragrance, there's a lot of ways that things are displayed, all in order to get you to stay in the store longer and to get you to be, feel enticed to buy something. And you're going to show us today how technology, and particularly a lot of the big social media platforms, are being actively designed to shape and control the way that you think, to shape and control how much time you're spending on it, and to grab your attention because they can sell you something and make money off of the amount of time that you are mindlessly giving to these platforms.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Absolutely. I mean, and, and, and the stories are wild. Like, o- one thing just pops into my head. So people don't realize,
- 5:41 – 12:14
This is how the stock market can be sneaky.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
so there is, um, there are allegations that there's one stock trading app that, see, it used to be that if you wanted to buy or sell a stock, you had to sell it or buy it during, like, trading hours.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
But now, you can buy or sell a s- stock 24 hours a day, and what we know about the human brain is the human brain gets fatigued....the later on in the day that you go. This is why people have trouble with midnight snacking, because you run out of willpower at, like, 11:00 PM, midnight, 1:00 AM. And so now what happens is that you can buy stock at, like, 1:00 in the morning when you're not thinking clearly. This is the wild thing. So there was allegations that one trading house basically had a strategy of, "Anyone who buys a stock at 1:00 AM, we're gonna take the opposite side of the bet," because people are not thinking clearly, and so they made so much money by just taking the opposite side of the bet of anyone who was mentally fatigued and chooses to buy stock. So there's all kinds of stuff going on that people are just not even remotely aware of about technology and how it's shaping us, and it's-it's scary.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, um, Dr. K, you've already mentioned this big word, neuroeconomics. One of the reasons why I was so excited that you were willing to fly here and spend some time with me today is because your work is this amazing just overlap of neuroscience and psychiatry. You also lecture at Harvard Medical School. You have a big practice. You are also looking at the effect of technology on the brain, and you have an incredible story for how you became fascinated with this and-in helping us take control back. Can you tell us a little bit about your story?
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Yeah. (laughs) So, um, you know, I was born here in the United States, and, uh, growing up, I was... I used to play a lot of video games. So I didn't realize this until later, but, um, I was one year ahead, so I skipped a grade.
- MRMel Robbins
Uh-huh.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
And when... In my school and in many schools, you know, your social status is based on your athletic ability.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
But I was, like, a five-year-old competing against, like, six-year-olds or seven-year-olds-
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
...so I was just getting crushed. And so the only way that I could compete with my peers was, like, through video games. So I started playing a lot of video games, really became a problem in c- uh, in high school, um, and then I basically failed out of college. So I, I was on academic probation for... after my freshman year for having less than a 2.0 GPA. Um, so basically, the best grade I got all semester was a C, and I got a couple D's and F's. And so my parents tried kinda everything. They tried, you know, tough love. They tried supportive love. Um, but they're both doctors, but, eh, even back then, I mean, it... Today, we know more, but, eh, back then, games were not nearly as addictive, and I was still so addicted, and they had no idea what to do, and most parents don't know what to do. It's incredibly frustrating for them. Like, they just don't know how to get the kid there stop, um, how to get their kid to stop. So... And then my, my dad finally was like, "You gotta go to India." And I was like, "For what?" And he's like, "You just have to go." And so I went to an ashram or monastery, where I spent three months studying yoga and meditation. Decided at the end of that summer when I was (laughs) 21 to become a monk, um, that... Ultimately, I tried to take my vows. My teachers wouldn't have me right away, so-
- MRMel Robbins
Why?
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So the... It was... It's, it's really fascinating, but one of them said, you know... I was like, "I'm ready to give up my life." And he's like, "What are you giving up? You have nothing worth giving up." (laughs) So he said... He actually turned me down, and he said, "You can come back when you're 30, but you need to go back, finish your education, get a doctoral degree, and then if you still want to take your vows, you can take your vows when you're 30 years old." In the meantime, they were kind enough, so I basically visited every summer, stayed there every summer, learned, like, more advanced meditation techniques and things like that for about seven years, and then after about seven years, decided to give that up. My teachers were super wise. Met my wife, so the whole celibacy thing wasn't gonna work out.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Um, was a struggle for a little while, uh, but then ultimately decided to become a doctor, a medical doctor. And the big irony there was that, you know, I was pre-med, but I really didn't care about it, and then now I'd sort of decided that, okay, I was gonna become a doctor. And that was actually part of my spiritual practice. So, um, my teacher had also told me that anything that you do in the material world will be easier than what you have to do in the spiritual realm, so set a high target, and unless you can meet it, like, you're gonna fail spiritually. So I was like, "Okay, fine." So I, I really took that to heart. Um, ended up going to medical school, uh, became a psychiatrist, um, and I, I trained at Mass General, where I was faculty for a, a little while, um, and then started focusing on technology addiction. So when I was in residency, I went to some of the... my mentors, and these are, I mean, brilliant people, just leaders in the field of psychiatry, and I asked them, like, "Hey, what do y'all think about tech addiction, like video game addiction?" This was back in 2015, I had my first conversation, and that's when I sort of realized, they were like, "Oh, you know, like, it seems like it's a problem, but we don't really know too much about it." That's changed a lot in the last 10 years.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
And that's when it kinda hit me that, like, most of the leaders of fields, right? So if you look at medicine, like, the chief of psychiatry is gonna be in their 50s, 60s, or 70s, and so it's, uh, n- no shortcoming on their part. They're amazing humans and have studied a lot, but, like, they just don't know what it's like to play a video game. And so I had struggled with this, started to get interested in it clinically, and then really started working with gamers, um, and then sort of expanded to social media and all these other challenges that people face and really focused on combining... You know, uh, I had some great training, and people really taught me how to understand neuroscience, a lot of clinical experience in addiction, and then combining that with spirituality. And now what I try to do is help people develop healthy relationships with technology.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, I think that's really interesting way to look at it because, first of all, we don't understand how much technology is taking control of our brains and our lives, and we need to understand that. And then the second piece is, nobody's going to get rid of it completely, and so we gotta understand how to have a healthy relationship with it. And I absolutely am gonna dive deeper into more of the nuances around what to do when somebody is addicted to gaming or social media, how to talk to somebody who is, like, all of those specific things, but I kinda wanna stay.... a little bit more broad-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Sure.
- MRMel Robbins
... because I think it's fascinating that back in 2015, you had the insight to say tech addiction
- 12:14 – 15:32
Modern technology is doing THIS to our brains.
- MRMel Robbins
is a thing. And so I'd be curious, Dr. K, what exactly is technology, modern technology, doing to our brains?
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
The short answer is a lot. So, so here's the first thing that we have to understand. So when we look at most addictions-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
... we tend to think about substance use disorders.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So these are things like alcohol or opiates or marijuana. So this is a discrete biological chemical which travels to various parts of the brain and activates usually one res- one kind of receptor. So we have the GABA receptor for alcohol, we have opioid receptors, and so it's a very targeted effect. The thing with technology is if we look at the evolution of technology, technology used to activate just one part of our brain. So, originally with video games, you would activate the dopaminergic circuitry, which is what gives us pleasure. But then over time, people are adding more features to technology. Facebook used to be a way to stay in touch with people, but then with the like button, you could get some social validation. It's not just about an advanced form of, like, you know, a contact list. Now it's my identity is becoming virtual, my profession is becoming virtual, my relationships are becoming virtual. So, like, so many other parts of the brain are now being affected. It's basically like a whole brain effect at this point. It affects our sense of identity, it affects our sense of pleasure, it regulates our emotions, it alters our attention span. It, it does everything. And what, what people are basically discovering, what developers are discovering is that the more of the brain that I can affect, the more people will engage with me, because now I'm not just activating this one circuit. Now you can use technology for everything and your whole brain can get into it. And that may sound s- kind of confusing, but see, people who play video games, their relationships are online. Like, I had a friend that I started playing video games with when I was 15. I'd never met them before, but I invited them to my wedding, and, like, they c- they showed up. So this is someone who was my friend for, like, 13 years, and they're a real friend.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, I think one takeaway so far, Dr. K, that's already super helpful is that even just the reference to Facebook, when it first launched on the scene, it was a way to stay in touch with people. It was like, uh, you know, the, clearly the Facebook from college. It was a way to share pictures with people-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... a way to stay connected to your high school friends, to your first cousins, to your family members. And when you started to tick off all the ways that these platforms are now in our life, they... The like button makes it part of your identity. "Do people like me? Do they not like me?" The number of followers says something about you. It is a huge part of your professional life, like being-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Absolutely.
- MRMel Robbins
... on LinkedIn or on Zoom, or if you are a entrepreneur or you're, like, trying to launch some sort of business, it becomes a marketing platform. Everybody's on these dating apps, which are basically social media networks as well. And, and so our lives have slowly started to become wildly intertwined-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Beautifully said.
- MRMel Robbins
... with the technology. And this is why kind of our, our knee-jerk response is, "Just delete the app. Oh, just do this. Oh, ju- just stop playing the thing." And I think the genie's already out of the bottle-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... on this.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
I, I, I think, I think, so that, that's the challenge, is that... So, so I, I think w- I realized, it kind of dawned on me that, like, eh, technology
- 15:32 – 16:39
How technology has crept into every aspect of our lives.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
is kind of like i- introducing an invasive species in a new environment where there's no natural checks and balances and then the species just explodes. And technology is like an invasive species for our brain, so it starts to colonize different parts of our brain. And you'll see this if, if you struggle with technology or you, you know someone who's struggling with technology. That's just always literally where their mind goes. It's what they think about when they wake up in the morning. You know, first thing that we do is we pull out our phone, we browse Reddit or Instagram or whatever, right? It's the last thing that we do before we go to bed. We're thinking about it if we're in the elevator, we're doing it. If we're sitting in a cab, we're doing it. If we're on the toilet, we're doing it. You know, so, so it's, it's really invaded every corner of our life. It's really scary.
- MRMel Robbins
And, you know, I think that is a very interesting point, because if you're ever standing in line at any kind of store, look around. Everybody is filling that time by looking at their phone. And so, you know, you've focused a lot of your earlier career as a psychiatrist on gaming addiction-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... but this is really about how it has invaded our brains and our lives in every single way.
- 16:39 – 21:00
If you scroll on social media or sit in front of a TV for hours, listen to this.
- MRMel Robbins
When I look at somebody who is spending hours just filing through videos and surfing online, they look like they're numbing.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So-
- MRMel Robbins
Is that, like-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
That-
- MRMel Robbins
... a thing?
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
That, it's li- literally what's happening, and it's happening in both cases. So one of the... Basically, a lot of studies show that one of the major effects on the brain is the suppression of our amygdala and our limbic system, so these are the negative emotional circuits of the brain. So if you kind of think about, like, if I'm... Everyone's kind of hung up on dopamine, and dopamine's there, but I think a lot of the addictive qualities are about pushing the negativity away. So when you're scrolling on your short form platform of choice, doesn't matter-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
... TikTok, YouTube, whatever, what happens is if you're having a bad day and you start scrolling, like, what happens? You're having a rough-
- MRMel Robbins
I feel relaxed.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Yeah. N- I wouldn't even say rel-
- MRMel Robbins
I do.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Yeah, so sometimes it can be relaxing. That-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
... I would say is actually good, but oftentimes what it does is distract us from the negativity.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So what happens is, is it is a relief from your anxiety, but I would not quite call it relaxing. It can be. Sometimes there is a... 'Cause I think about relaxation as a positive emotional thing, right?
- MRMel Robbins
That's true.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So, so what we really see is a lot of emotional numbing. And then what happens, we get stuck in this cycle because when we use technology to suppress our emotions, our brain does not process emotions. So if you, if you really, like, look at it, I mean, th- some of this is supported in, in science. Some of it is just my conjecture. But human beings used to have a lot of idle time in our brains. So if you look at, like, for the majority of evolution, we did rote tasks. We'd do things like churn butter-... or, like, make rope, right? And if you think about that, like, the mind is relatively free. So as I'm going throughout the day, something, I get worried about something, I go hunting with a buddy of mine, I miss my arrow, he hits his arrow, I feel inferior, we walk two hours back to camp. Over the course of that walking, my brain has time to process. Now what's happened is if you look at what goes on with our attention, we have zero idle time in the brain, and the problem is that chances are our brain has evolved to use that idle time. So we know, for example, even, like, with dreams, that the emotional content of dreams has to do with the emotional content of your life. And as we interfere with dreaming, as we have, you know, these different medications that will affect our sleep stages, the restfulness that we get changes. So our brain is actually... Even when you're not thinking about something, your brain is doing a ton of work. But now what we've stopped doing is giving our t- our brains time to process information, process emotions, because we're constantly externalizing our attention. And so the more that we externalize our attention, we reduce process times, uh, emotional processing in the brain. As we reduce emotional processing in the brain, what do we see? A rise in just about every mental illness characteristic.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, Dr. K, as I'm sitting here listening to you, and I had asked you about, (clears throat) you know, sort of this numbing effect-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... that being on a short form platform or playing a video game is having on our brains, and I said, "Oh, well, it can be relaxing," here's what I just realized when listening to you, that I definitely see that, you know, I've got this, like, busyness throughout the day. My brain is always engaged.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
I'm running from one thing to the next, and scrolling on social media is a lever that I pull to turn the busyness off, but what I'm... As I'm listening to you, I will be very honest, it's not relaxing. When I go outside for a walk and I don't have my phone on me, that is a very different state in my brain.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
100%.
- MRMel Robbins
And so even calling it that I'm relaxing is me kind of succumbing to what's happening with tech addiction and the casual numbing that you're doing all day long.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
All day long.
- MRMel Robbins
All day long.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
All day long. So, so, uh, I mean, that, uh, uh, it- it's, it's beautifully said. So this is where there's a difference between numbing our negativity and relaxing, right? And that's what technology is really good at. There are some times where you're on technology and you do get some positive, right? So if I'm watching, like, cat videos, like, I can genuinely laugh, right? So it does release dopamine. There can be some amount of relaxation. And I'm not anti-technology, by the way, y- you know? I think it's just we need to understand what effect it's having-
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
... so that we can compensate.
- 21:00 – 26:04
We all do this one thing before going to bed.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
absolutely, this is what we see, is a lot of numbing that goes on, and then what happens is people like... W- you'll notice that a lot of people who use technology have difficulty going to bed at night, because once you stop the technology, what happens? There's a flood of mental activity. There's a flood of emotion, and then I have difficulty going to sleep, and since I'm not sleeping because my mind is running a mile a minute, what do I do? I pull out my phone. And once I pull out my phone, now m- my mind is relaxed a little bit, right? At least it's focused. It's not running in a thousand different directions solving a thousand different problems that I can't actually solve right now anyway because it's 10:00 PM at night. What am I gonna do? So then I hop on my phone for half an hour, and I wait till my exhaustion becomes so profound that it overcomes that emotional flooding before I go to bed.
- MRMel Robbins
Holy smokes.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
It's crazy.
- MRMel Robbins
You just described every person that's listening-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
It- it's crazy. It's crazy.
- MRMel Robbins
... be- because I think we've all had that experience, and I will get a little bit later in our conversation, there's so many kind of foundational things I want to cover. I promise we will get to your recommendation for what-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... the evening routine should look like, but I personally understand exactly what you're saying. You turn off the... You shut the laptop down, you put your phone away, and there is that flooding of activity in your brain, and then it never fails. Calm yourself down by just scrolling back at your phone.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
A- absolutely, right? So I- I- I don't know if people are like this. I do this a lot where, like, even if I watch TV before bed, I will turn off the TV, and then I'll pull out my phone.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
And then I'll even sometimes pull out my phone while I'm watching TV, and then it's like, "Well, hold on a second. What are we doing here? Like, what's the point of this? Am I trying to enjoy this show? Like, what- what's happening?"
- MRMel Robbins
Well, Dr. K, what is happening? Like, what is happening in that moment? Because I do feel like there are so many of us that don't want to turn over two hours a night or more just to mindlessly scrolling. And, you know, we were talking with Professor Adam Alter, who was saying that we're gonna spend 20 years of our life on our phone, and when we hear that and we go, "Ugh," we wanna stop, but what's actually happening in your mind? Is this a sign that you're addicted?
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Uh, sure. So- so let- let's define a couple of terms.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So the first is, like, what do we mean by addiction? So generally speaking, when we use the clinical term of addiction, we're talking about something that impairs your function, okay? So when we say someone is an alcoholic, how do I know if I have a problem? Basically, if it is causing problems in your professional life, in your personal life, social life, um, mental health or physical health, that's when we real- really think about this is an addiction. So the challenge right now is that we absolutely have things that are addicting which have not quite reached a threshold for many people of impairment of function. So everyone struggles with addiction to their phone, but they're not quite failing out of s- college, or they're not, you know, getting reprimanded at their job. They're able to have relationships, and that's what we're starting to see, is that technology is squeezing itself, because if there's actually, like, a really negative consequence, it's easier to stop. So there's all kinds of stuff that's going on. It's absolutely shaping our behavior and taking control away from us, and there are all kinds of, like, innovations that are designed to do that.
- MRMel Robbins
Like what?
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Um, so biometrics or face ID. So if you look at this, like, this is really important to understand. So when I was in college, this was like early 2000s, and I was studying-I would get distracted when I was reading a textbook, and my distraction would last maybe two minutes. And then since I didn't have a phone at the time, that distraction only cost me two minutes. Then my mind wanders away, and then it focuses back on the task at hand. Right now, if you get distracted, it will cost you an hour. So all you have to do is catch that impulse. If you just look at your phone and you have face ID enabled, boom. (fingers snap) So when you have that impulse, uh, to, uh... App developers are reducing the barrier between impulse and action. And they know that, uh, y- y- once you look at one post, you're stuck for 45 minutes. You will scroll. So now what they're trying to do is figure out, "How can I... If this person has a single impulse, how can I get them to the first video?" Because then we're... uh, we've got them hooked. Y- you know, they, they... the, the, the fish has taken the bait, they're on the line now. So that's where what we're seeing is that the price of an impulsive distraction is becoming way higher. So I think, um, teenagers spend, uh, somewhere between four and six hours a day on their cellphone. It's crazy, right? And how do you spend so much time-
- MRMel Robbins
I would think even more, honestly.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Yeah. How... That's average. (laughs) So how, how do you... How does that happen? It's because they hook you for a few minutes, and then you lose an hour.
- MRMel Robbins
And here's a question that I think would... It might sound dumb, but I really mean this. How do you know if you're addicted? And I say that because, you know, I can stand there as a parent, Dr. K, and look at my 25, 24, and 19-year-old, all of whom have their phones in their hands, all of whom are cranked down with their neck scrolling, and as I'm yelling, "Guys, get off your phone," I got my phone in my hand.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Absolutely. So, so in a weird way, I'd say it's the wrong question-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
... because I think we get caught up in whether we're addicted or not addicted-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay. What-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
... and how do you know?
- 26:04 – 29:00
Ask yourself this if you feel addicted to your phone.
- MRMel Robbins
What's the right question?
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
The question is, do you wanna use your cellphone... Are you intentionally using technology in the way that you want to? That's the question, right? So at the end of your day or at the end of your week, if you look back and you look at all of your technology use, are you happy with how that's working? Are you like, "Man, I'm so glad that I spent two hours and 10 minutes scrolling on TikTok at 11:00 PM on a Thursday"?
- MRMel Robbins
No, I'm not happy.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So that-
- MRMel Robbins
I feel like a fucking loser-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
That's-
- MRMel Robbins
... that I am turning all that time over to some dumbass app-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So I, I don't, I don't care if you're addicted or not. The question is, do you wanna change? Are you happy with your technology use, right? So we can ask, answer the question, right? So if it, if it impairs function, so if it's interfering with something, and it... fair enough. We won't talk about all those negative effects. So it is doing things like shortening our attention span. We're seeing a rise in the diagnosis of ADHD. We're also seeing a rise in the diag... uh, not diagnosis, but subclinical ADHD manifestations. So a lot of people, even if they don't have a diagnosis, they identify with having ADHD. And why is that? It's because technology does the attentional work for you. So this is where I, I know I'm k- going off on a tangent, but-
- MRMel Robbins
No, it's great.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So when I'm reading a textbook, I have to force my mind to pay attention, which means that I'm actually strengthening this capability in the mind. So the mind, whatever you stretch and whatever you exercise is what gets better, right? So if I spend a lot of time, you know, listening to music, my brain will actually due to neuroplasticity will get better at listening to music. So our brain requires the more we practice focusing our attention, the better our... we will be at focusing. Now what happens is with things like short form content, we see... We saw this a lot with short form content, they do all the hard work for you. Because if something doesn't hold your attention for 15 seconds, you scroll past it, right? So everyone is engineering content so that you are just like you're, you're sitting and someone else is driving. And so you're... you don't have to focus on your phone. You don't have to force yourself to focus. It does all the focusing for you. So what started to happen with our attention is instead of taking the stairs, we're taking the elevator all the time.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So we are deconditioning our minds, and then it becomes harder to focus.
- MRMel Robbins
Which is why you will stand in a grocery store line and instead of just enjoying a moment where you're not doing anything, you have to look at your phone-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Absolutely.
- MRMel Robbins
... because your brain is being programmed and conditioned to need attention, to need something, to need stimulation-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Yeah. W-
- MRMel Robbins
... and it's happening to you in real time. If you're sitting here and you're, you're contemplating the question, 'cause you just said, "Don't ask if you're addicted. Ask, am I satisfied and happy with the way that I'm using technology?"
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
That's the main question.
- MRMel Robbins
And if the answer is, "No, I am not, I am giving too much time, I'm spending too much money, I do not want to feel beholden to this thing,"
- 29:00 – 38:00
Dr.K’s top strategies to take control of the time you spend with technology.
- MRMel Robbins
what are some of your top habits or strategies, Dr. K, to take control of the amount of time you are spending on your phone or gaming or on social media?
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Great question. So I, I think there's two approaches.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So a lot of people will say, "Just uninstall."
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Oftentimes, people (laughs) will have this experience where it's like, "Okay, I uninstalled YouTube, and then I installed TikTok the next day," right? So, like, people will just swap out apps. So th- this is what, what I've sort of found is that there are underlying drivers of behavior, and then there are kind of environmental things.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So let's talk about the environmental things first. The first thing that I would recommend is that you don't use your cellphone for the first... or any technology for the first hour when you wake up.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Now, this is really important to understand.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So what, what a lot of people don't realize is that you have a certain capacity for pleasure and behavioral reinforcement when you wake up in the morning. You have only a certain number of units of pleasure and behavioral reinforcement.
- MRMel Robbins
Got it. So if I have a cup of capacity for, uh, both pleasure and behavioral reinforcement, you're saying that when you wake up, that one cup is already full?
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So our dopaminergic circuitry in the brain, in this part called the nucleus accumbens, basically, this is what gives us a sense of pleasure and also reinforces our behavior.So the problem with dopamine is we wake up in the morning and our dopaminergic stores are full. So what happens is we have a, a reserve of dopamine, and if you want something with delayed gratification and your dopamine stores are high, you can work a lot, but then when you get the payoff, since you have a bunch of dopamine, you get a strong dopamine release, and then you feel really good. So th- the way that this works is, like, I want y'all to think about this. Let's say I wake up first thing in the morning, and then I work for four hours, and then what is the rew- the subjective reward that I feel after four hours of work? It's really positive.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Then if I use technology for four hours, it's kind of whatever. But if I use technology for the first four hours of the day and then I try to go and do work-
- MRMel Robbins
You're not going to.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
... you're not going to. And even if you finish the same amount of work, you will not experience the same level of pleasure, because your dopamine has literally been depleted.
- MRMel Robbins
Got it.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So the way that I kind of describe this is imagine that you have a lemon that is full of juice.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So at the very beginning, when it's full of juice, a small squeeze gets you a lot of juice. But by the end, you have to squeeze a lot to get very little juice. This is how dopamine is in our brain.
- MRMel Robbins
So, in other words, if you tap into technology and it invades your circuitry in your brain, it literally is like squeezing most of the juice out of the lemon first thing in the morning-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
First thing in the morning.
- MRMel Robbins
... and then that means that it's also-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
No.
- MRMel Robbins
... gonna impact your ability to do the work or to focus or to feel joy and all those things that, that normally, if you did those things first, you'd feel a sense of reward and joy for?
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Yes. So technology is like a hard squeeze. So if we use it first thing in the morning, we squeeze the lemon really hard and we get all the juice out, and then you have nothing left to feel good about because all of your dopamine stores have been depleted.
- MRMel Robbins
So is this also leading to this intense rise in what we're seeing and what so many experts have come on to talk about, which is this chronic feeling of being disconnected from yourself, this feeling of autopilot, this feeling of stress in your day-to-day life that, you know, the fact that you are squeezing the juice from your brain first thing in the morning, it leaves you with no reserves?
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So, so th- all of those things are true, and each one has a separate neuroscientific mechanism.
- 38:00 – 39:51
The real reason you feel like you’re living life on autopilot.
- MRMel Robbins
I, I, I feel like there's a massive, massive state of disconnection that people are feeling right now. They're not calling it that, but that's what I'm sensing-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... profoundly in my bones.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Yes, so let's understand that 'cause you mentioned autopilot and identity. So now, this is where autopilot comes in. So once I'm not connected with myself, what prompts my behavior? What prompts my motivation?
- MRMel Robbins
More numbing, like the same thing. You're just-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Well-
- MRMel Robbins
... sort of on this like, "Ugh, ugh, ugh, ugh, ugh, ugh."
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Absolutely, so that's why we, we become autopilot. Why do we become auto-
- MRMel Robbins
Oh my God-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Because there's no signals-
- MRMel Robbins
... I just got something.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
What?
- MRMel Robbins
And then on top of it, because you need some level of force or some action to be able to take a different type of action, put the phone down, get outside and go for a walk, because you have allowed technology to invade your brain and squeeze all the dopamine juice out of your brain, you don't actually have that will within you-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Absolutely.
- MRMel Robbins
... to take the action.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Perfect, right? So, so what happens is we numb ourselves to our identity. And what is it that prompts us to do something with our lives? It is our sense of identity. "I want to be a doctor. I wanna be a good person. I wanna empower other people. I want this," right? So we lose connection with our internal self, so then what happens is... Normally, what happens in, in a healthy identity is I have internal drivers, and that gets balanced with the outside world. The world expects this of me. "This is what I wanna do." There's a healthy conflict there. Now what's going on is we are numbing ourselves to the internal. There is no internal anymore, which means we become autopilot. What does autopilot mean? This means that my actions, my behaviors, my desires, my goals are actually being conditioned in my mind. "I watch this kind of social media. I think I need a thigh gap. I watch this kind of thing. I need to get this kinda thing. I need to have a side hustle," right?
- 39:51 – 41:28
Social media is making us lose this part of ourselves.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
"I, I need to do this now." So now what happens... And then we feel like we're not in control of our lives because we have all of these goals that social media's feeding us. And then we get super confused. "Should I do this, or should I do this, or should I do this?" The reason you're confused is because none of it is coming from you. One day, this person is telling you this thing. The next day, someone is telling you this thing. Everyone's saying, "Get this bag today. Use this supplement tomorrow." Right? This... A- a- and this is what autopilot means because we are not driving anymore. We are being driven.
- MRMel Robbins
I love you. I can feel the person listening right now, like literally either sitting in their car, or they've put the dishes down that they've loaded, or they've stepped off the treadmill at the gym, and they're like, "I don't wanna do this to myself anymore." So Dr. K, now that we sort of see the implication and the fact that technology is moving faster than our brains can catch up, and it is now designed to put you in this state because when you are in this state and you're on your phone all the time, other people are making money off of that attention. The longer that you stay on your phone, the more money people make. And when you understand this, you now have a choice about how you're going to use technology instead of being used by it.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Absolutely.
- MRMel Robbins
And I wanna get into a couple, like, tactical things.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Sure.
- MRMel Robbins
So you just gave us all a massive wake-up call.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So I, I'd say there's short, medium, and, like, long-term interventions.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay. So let's talk
- 41:28 – 45:00
This is what you should do right now to spend less time using technology.
- MRMel Robbins
about what do I do right now?
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Right now. So the first thing is that remove all of the things that make it easy for you to access your phone.
- MRMel Robbins
Like what?
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So remove face ID. Remove biometrics. You have to use your little login whatever every single time. Make it hard for you to access.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So what we wanna do is increase the time between an impulse to use your phone and access to your phone.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So practically, what I'll also tell people is, "Don't carry your phone around." (laughs) I know it sounds crazy, but when I go home, I set it in a different room. I don't keep it near me.
- MRMel Robbins
Same.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So create space.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Second thing is no access to addicting apps on your home screen. You gotta fucking go to the app section of your app, open up your whole panel of 800 apps, and find it that way. Reduce access.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So if you reduce access, there's a chance you can ride out the impulse, and what basically happens is the... See, anytime we give our brain instant gratification, it reinforces the behavior more. So you wanna make it difficult for you to access. If you wanna uninstall apps, go for it. So there's even stuff like you could save your logins in a, in a browser but don't have the native app. So if you really need to use the, the thing, you use the web app, and it's gonna be annoying and frustrating, yes, that's the point.So make it hard to access.
- MRMel Robbins
'kay. And by the way, I want you to consider that it's not just you're making it hard for you to access it. I want you-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Brilliant.
- MRMel Robbins
... to really absorb what Dr. K is saying. You wanna make it hard for all of the social media apps to access you.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Well said. Brilliant. I- I- I knew you were going there, and that's exactly it, right? So what- what- what we wanna do is... See, these apps are not designed to have you have a healthy relationship with them. They are designed to increase your unhealthy relationship with them. So whatever game they want to play, we want to try to tug of war in the opposite direction. So first thing is, remove your impulsive access to whatever this stuff is. So this is also where, like, I'll- I'll- I won't keep a lot of stuff on my phone. I'll keep it, like, logged into my desktop.
- MRMel Robbins
I like that idea a lot.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So here's another thing that I think will really get people insane. So I try to work minimally on my phone and try to almost never work on my phone at all. So there's a huge problem where everyone's like, "Okay, we're checking email on our phone. We're doing this, we're doing this." The problem is once you're in your phone, how many times do you just do work and don't do anything else?
- MRMel Robbins
Never.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So this creates a problem, because now you have a good reason to be on your phone. But the good reason then turns into bad reason, because it's easy to switch from your email to something like TikTok, so easy. So that's where, like, work is for work and fun is for fun, and separate th- these- those two things.
- MRMel Robbins
Great.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Now, a lot of people will push back and they'll say, "But I need my phone for work."
- MRMel Robbins
Right. "I'm in real estate. I'm in this, I'm in that. I'm in the other thing."
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So if- if- if you need it, need it, then that's a different story, but oftentimes it is... Convenient is different. Like, you can sit your ass at your computer and check your email, like, four times a day and, like, you could probably be okay there. You don't need it-
- MRMel Robbins
Well, here's another thing you could do. If you truly have a job that you are tethered to your phone 'cause people need to text you, email you, and call you, great. Have a work phone-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
... and don't have any social media-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Yes.
- 45:00 – 46:32
Dr. K’s morning routine for getting off your phone.
- MRMel Robbins
talk about that. Dr. K, what is your morning routine that you recommend if I really want to get control of my use of technology and not allow social media and all these apps and everything on it to get access to me? What is the morning routine that you would recommend?
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
What I would recommend is for the first hour, just no technology. So this starts with even things like an alarm where, um, uh, y- you know, so I'll sometimes set an alarm, but I tend to find that my biological clock... And this comes with meditation. You just wake up when you- you tell your mind when to wake up and it can wake up. Um, and- and so, uh, you know... But if you have to start with an alarm, that's fine. So one thing I would say is, like, keep your phone, like, at distance from you.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
And then do... 'Cause here's the thing. We have a lot of stuff to do, right? That we never get around to. Just do all that stuff. Take out the trash. Just wake up, make a cup of coffee, and then do whatever else you need to do. So I'll meditate in the morning, for example, for about 21 minutes. So I'll- I'll do all of that kind of stuff, and then, like, I'll shower and I'll get ready. And an hour gets eaten up very quickly. You'll also find that, like, your day starts way better, right? Because you don't waste that 28 minutes, and then 12 minutes on the toilet, and then five minutes here. So- so just start off trying to avoid using your phone.
- MRMel Robbins
So neurologically speaking, or from a mental, like, m- hein- or from, like, a mindset standpoint, Dr. K, what will you likely experience if you take control of the first hour of your day and you do not let technology consume and enter your mind?
- 46:32 – 51:46
This is why you need to start tolerating boredom.
- MRMel Robbins
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
The enemy that you need to conquer is boredom. So- so boredom... This is really important to understand. A lot of people think... Uh, th- people don't understand what bor- don't understand what boredom is. Boredom is your brain's way of punishing you for not giving it dopamine. So we have to understand this. So what-
- MRMel Robbins
What does that mean? I don't know-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Are-
- MRMel Robbins
... what that means. It punishes you for-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Yes. 100%. So let's understand this. So if I'm addicted to opiates-
- MRMel Robbins
'Kay.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
... and I don't get opiates, what hap-
- MRMel Robbins
I have withdrawal.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
I... Yeah. And do you know what that withdrawal feels like?
- MRMel Robbins
No, thank God.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So it is-
- MRMel Robbins
I don't-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
It is pain.
- MRMel Robbins
... wish that on anybody.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So we get hypersensitivity of our nociceptors, which are- which is our pain receptors. So our brain and our body punish us. They say, "Hey, we need this stuff. I'm going to punish you as a signal to give me what I want." This is true of opiates. This is also true of calories and hydration. Hunger and thirst are negative experiences that are used to drive behavior. So our body punishes us all the time if we are not doing good things.
- MRMel Robbins
'Kay.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Now, the problem is that this gets hijacked by things like Twinkies, where the hunger signal was evolved when we didn't have Twinkies, when we had, like, roots and tubers that we had to eat. And in the same way, boredom is- i- has all kinds of healthy reasons why we have it, but now it's gotten hijacked by technology. So when our brain is craving dopamine, it will make you feel bored. And your antidote to boredom is to give it what it needs. It's like it's jonesing for this, right? It's kinda crazy. So we have to understand that boredom is not, like, something to be avoided. Boredom is your- your brain's way of taking control of you. Because then, "Oh," like, "I'm bored." So what do you do?
- MRMel Robbins
You reach for your phone.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Absolutely, right? And then the brain is satisfied. It's like, "Yeah, thanks for giving me a hit of this. By the way, dumbass-
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
... you only did this for 15 minutes." And now you ha- now you have this thought, "Oh, I have stuff to do." So you close the phone, and then your brain is like, "Uh-uh. I'm bored. I don't wanna do that. Pull out the phone again." So you- so the main thing that you have to tolerate is boredom. You don't have to conquer it. You just have to tolerate it. Because eventually, if you don't give in to the thing, that- that signal will subside. So our brain has this principle of homeostasis where it never sends us signals forever.So even if you're hungry, right, you missed lunch, you feel hungry for a while and then your brain acclimatizes to the signal. You stop feeling hungry for an hour or two, and then the brain reminds you again. Same thing will happen.
- MRMel Robbins
It's true.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So what we want to do with technology We don't need to conquer anything. We need endurance. We need actually to lean into inaction. We don't have to be positive, we don't have to be motivated, we don't have to work on our resume. All we need to do is endurance. Just tolerate the negativity, tolerate the boredom.
- MRMel Robbins
Got it.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
That's going to be your main enemy.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay, great. So, put the phone out of reach, fill the first hour with all the kinds of things you can't get to. It'll go super fast. You will notice a boost in your mood. You will notice that you've-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
No, no, no, no.
- MRMel Robbins
What are you gonna notice?
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
No, uh, you're gonna suffer.
- 51:46 – 53:20
The reason why we have “shower thoughts.”
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
a while, I don't know if you're familiar with this concept of shower thoughts, but a lot of people have very profound thoughts-
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
... in the shower.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
And the question is why? The only reason is because this is the time where you are with yourself. It's the one last bastion that is protected from technology because water is damaging to technology. So it's the only time we're with ourselves. And when we are with ourselves, remember that the problem with technology is it numbs us out to ourselves. The other mechanism it uses is it literally externalizes my attention. So what my mind is thinking about is what I see, what I hear, instead of like what I feel.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, out there.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Yes. Our mind is outside of us.
- MRMel Robbins
Which is why the FOMO and the constant comparison is so amplified-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
It's t- It's terrible.
- MRMel Robbins
... because technology has trained you to have an external focus. And if you're never allowing yourself to be alone with your own thoughts, alone with your own feelings, moments of boredom, idleness, stillness, to allow your mind to wander, to feel connected to yourself, of course you're gonna think all the answers are out there.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Absolutely, right? So we have a huge problem of externalizing our attention. So if I take a human being and I stick them on an island for a day-
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
... and I'm like, just like, "There's food and stuff," right, like, they'll be okay. Like, you can experience your life on a given day, and most people's lives are not that bad, thankfully. I mean, maybe they, they can be, but the moment that you externalize your attention, you are not paying attention to the positive and negative signals in here, then you lose touch with yourself. So
- 53:20 – 54:25
Do this one thing while you’re bored to stimulate your brain.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
after the boredom comes something super cool. So one of the things that I strongly recommend people do is if you're feeling bored, pace. So-
- MRMel Robbins
What do you mean? Like walk around?
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Yes. So I do this all the time, where when I take a break, I will pace, I will go for walks, and then what you'll notice is that there is this like flooding of mental activity, but if you do that throughout the day, that's your brain like processing.
- MRMel Robbins
So I actually dare you, as you're listening to Dr. K do this today.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
I dare you to put your phone in your kitchen or in your car or somewhere off your person, and I dare you to simply literally either pace around, or even better, go for a walk for 10 minutes.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And you will notice the flooding of the brain and-
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Yes. So, so there's all kinds of suppressed stuff that will come up.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
It's not gonna be productive at the beginning, but then over time you will notice that your mind will settle down and you will feel calmer. So like when, when we give our brain idle time, it's kind of like sorting through the mail. Like we have all this mail that's piled up that we haven't dealt with and we keep pushing it away, keep pushing it away, keep pushing it away, so y- your brain needs time for it.
- MRMel Robbins
Another question,
- 54:25 – 56:28
Dr.K’s recommendation for using your phone before bed.
- MRMel Robbins
um, nighttime. What is your recommendation if, you know, we're listening and we're like, "Uh, I have to do this"? I, I hear, often hear people say an hour beforehand, no screens. What do you recommend, Dr. K?
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Yeah, so I don't recommend screens an hour before bed as well, so I think that's good.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So, so, so, and, and that's where like, you know, we have to structure our environment to be... Keep the phone away from you. So like I will keep my phone, um, n- usually not within like hand distance.... uh, you can, like, and that, too, people, like, an hour can feel like a really long time. But I find that if I just don't accompany my, or if I don't let my phone accompany me, when I just do the things that I'm supposed to do, I'll even be on my computer, so sometimes I'll, like, you know, look at, like, my schedule for the next day or things like that.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
But I try to use my computer a lot more than my phone.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, there's a very different experience.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
Like, you're basically intaking versus giving your attention.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Well, there's a boundary.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
There's a boundary, right? So you're, we don't want our phone to invade the other corners of our life. We want to have technology be where it belongs and not have it be anywhere else.
- MRMel Robbins
If you are someone who is worried about a person in your life that is playing video games or is on social media, but, you know, your work really has focused on video games, how do you, A, know it's a problem? Especially if you have a kid or a partner who's social life is really about gaming, and they're really good at it, so they feel good about themselves when they're doing. So how do you know it's a part, it's a problem? And two, how do you help the person other than sending them this episode to listen to?
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So oftentimes, we all struggle with technology, but oftentimes, we'll have people in our lives who struggle more than we do. And we can really see the impact in their lives. And the challenge that a lot of people face, um, that you may face is that when you try to do something about it, you get pushback.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Right? You can see it's a problem, but for whatever reason, they're like, their head is in the sand, they're in denial, whatever.
- 56:28 – 57:50
These are the 2 surprising signs of technology addiction.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So the first question is how do you know if it's a problem? So if there's an impairment of function, it's impacting their professional career, their academic life, social life which includes family relationships, mental health, or physical health. That's usually what we're looking for for the threshold of addiction.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Second thing, though, is that I'd say especially for parents or loved ones, trust your instinct, because I think that half the problem that we're facing in the world today is we're saying if it's an addiction, we should do something about it, and if it's not an addiction, then it's okay. That's absurd. Even if it isn't a problem, or even if their life isn't falling apart.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, you kind of know.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
You're like, "My instinct... This is bothering me, and I don't know what to do about it."
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Yes. So I would say for most parents, I'll tell them, I don't, I mean, even if they're not addicted, I don't think that that's important. The, the main thing is trust your instinct if you think it's a problem, right, and it could get better. And that's the thing is I don't want to set a standard that is, okay, your life isn't falling apart. There are so many people that I work with who have loved ones who are just like kind of stuck in neutral.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
They go to their nine to five job. They're not really in really engaging relationships. You know, they'll go to birthday parties and stuff. They kind of show up for life, but they don't live life. So I don't like this emphasis on impairment of function and it being addiction for us to intervene. We should be living fulfilling lives, and if someone that you know is not living a fulfilling life, you should absolutely intervene.
- MRMel Robbins
And
- 57:50 – 1:05:41
How to approach someone who can’t stop scrolling on their phone.
- MRMel Robbins
what is the opening line? Because it is human nature when somebody comes to you and says, "I'm worried about you." Push back. "I'm fine."
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Like, block it out. "I'm not listening."
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So we're going to give you a couple of opening lines that make assumptions. So the first thing is, "Hey, I'm concerned about your technology use." So just own what you're concerned about.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Second line is, "I'm sorry for judging you, and I recognize that I've been pushy without really understanding, and, like, I'm going to take a step back." So acknowledge your concern. Oftentimes apologize because this is not the first time you're having this conversation, right, where you've tried to explain to them, convince them, whatever. So you want to open them up to it, and if you kind of open up by saying, "Hey, I'm sorry for judging you," or whatever, that goes a long way in terms-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
... of their cognitive flexibility and their willingness to listen. Third thing is, "Help me understand what you think about technology," or whatever the thing is. So, "Help me understand. Like, can you just tell me about your social media use? Can you tell me a little bit... Help me understand." So what we really want to do is, is start by, you know, 'cause if we don't say that first line, let's, like, unpack a little bit. If we don't say the first line, oftentimes what people will do is they'll detect that I really have these views and you're not really just asking an open-ended question.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
They're going to feel like you're trying to trap them.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Right?
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So you want to own that apology and own, like, "I know I've been concerned in the past. I realize, like, I've been pushing you, and that's not fair to you."
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
"I'm sorry for that."
- MRMel Robbins
Thank you.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Help me understand.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
You know, like, "How do you see this? 'Cause, like, I see this, and it's a problem to me, but, like, anytime I talk to you about it, it doesn't seem to go well. So help me understand. How do you feel about it?" Right? And that's when they'll, sometimes they'll say, "Oh, you know, it's not a problem," um, or something like that. And that's where we al- also want to use the second technique, and we, we lay these out. There's a t- ton of sample dialogue in How to Raise a Healthy Gamer, which by the way has been useful for not people who are parents, but just anyone who wants to have a conversation with someone about changing their behavior.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So we see a lot of benefit from spouses. So we have a lot of husbands who game too much. I'm guilty of that. Um, you know, so, so we'll, there's a lot of really useful conversations. Even people have used the book for conversations with their parents. So it, it's just a real- really solid set of evidence-based, like, conversational techniques.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Um, and the next thing that we want to do is something called reflectively listen. So if we start with a question, but then I ask you, you say something, and then I ask you another question, I ask you another question, it's going to feel like an interrogation. So we don't want to do that. You start with one question, and then aft- whatever they say, they say, "Oh, it's fine. Like, I don't think it's a problem." What you actually want to do is repeat back to them what they said. Meet them where they're at, and you can say, "Okay, that's totally fine. So I'm hearing y- you say that it's not a problem. So I guess the conversation is over." And then-
- MRMel Robbins
Not really. Uh, y- you say that?
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Yeah, sure. And then what do they say?
- MRMel Robbins
I don't know. I guess they... Well, you know what? I, I'm thinking about how we would use this with my daughters and TikTok.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And I think if I were to say, "What do you think about this?" They'd probably say, "I spend too much time on it."
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Okay, right. So, so that- that- that's, that's what we're... So a couple of things. One is if someone doesn't want to have the conversation, you can acknowledge that and exit the conversation. The first thing that it'll do is it'll confuse them.So instead of going into this pattern of-
- 1:05:41 – 1:11:03
The one thing Dr.K wants you to do today.
- MRMel Robbins
Dr. K, speaking directly to the person listening, if there were one thing that you would want them to take away as an imperative, like something to do from this, other than forwarding this conversation to everybody that they know and love because every person needs to hear exactly how you just framed this, what do you want the person listening to act on today?
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
The most important thing for them to do is nothing. So when it comes to technology, if you want to get control of your technology, what you need to learn how to do is nothing. Technology can only invade your life if you let it by acting, by picking up the phone, by taking it to the bathroom, by pulling it out in the elevator. Do nothing. Get better at doing absolutely nothing. Pace. Sit. Get bored. We have this great exercise we do in our community that is transformative for about half of the people who do it, which is stare at a blank wall for one hour. Some people-
- MRMel Robbins
One hour?
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
One hour, absolutely. Oh my God, one hour. We spend four to six hours a day on our cell phone doing absolutely nothing. One hour, it's, it's like shocking. Everyone's like, "Oh my God, one hour." That's even the, the junior version. The senior version is take a flight without any entertainment, without anything to distract your mind. Just take a flight.... and be bored for six hours, go for it.
- MRMel Robbins
And what happens when somebody takes this invitation and just sits in a room and stares at a wall for an hour?
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
So, some people will have catharsis. Like, all kind of they'll get bored for the first 15 minutes, their mind will start to think about things, they'll sometimes engage with their thoughts. Sometimes people start crying. There's just so much suppressed emotion that everything starts coming up. Some people are just bored for an hour and their mind wanders and it's, like, not that big of a cathartic journey, but even then, that's a win because now you've tolerated boredom for an hour. You are increasing your resistance to boredom. It is your resistance to boredom that will allow you to resist technology. Because what does technology offer you? It offers you an instant relief of boredom.
- MRMel Robbins
What are your parting words, Dr. K?
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
The only reason we're losing this war is because we haven't been fighting it. So a lot of people will look at this and think, "Oh, my God. Like, everything we're saying, it's gonna get more invasive. Everything is getting worse, everything is getting worse." But we haven't been concertedly fighting it. I'm not talking about regulation in Congress and... Like, all that stuff is great, you should do that. But, uh, you know, I, I'm a clinician, so my, my target is one person and how do I help this person? And what I have found is once you start trying to fight this and you equip yourself with some knowledge of how it works, you will be amazed at how easy it is, actually. It'll be difficult for a while, but then you will get good at it. The problem is that y- we've been fighting this war with our blindfolds on. We don't know how our brains work, we don't know how technology, we don't know how any of this stuff works. So, there's a lot of hope, and we just need to start fighting it in relatively the right way. You don't have to do it perfect. And you'll be amazed at how much things can cascade in the right direction.
- MRMel Robbins
I, I feel, Dr. K, this might be one of the most important conversations we have had ever on the Mel Robbins podcast, because it impacts absolutely every single human being. And you have so eloquently and visually painted the war we're actually fighting and why it matters. I cannot thank you enough for being here today.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Thank you so much for having me. I mean, I, I, I think it's high praise coming from such a high impact podcast where you guys have some so much impactful stuff.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, it's, it's... This impacts absolutely... If you've got a phone in your hand, it is changing your brain and it is time to take control of this relationship with technology. Thank you for teaching us how and why and what.
- KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)
Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
- MRMel Robbins
You're welcome. And thank you for being here with us today. And in case no one else tells you, I wanted to tell you that I love you, I believe in you, and this really matters. I, I, I, I do not want this to be an episode that you kinda watch and then you forget. This really will change the rest of your life. It'll change your brain. It'll change how meaningful your life could be. If you struggle with putting yourself first, if you feel disconnected, this is actually the solution that you need to take s- first and take it seriously. Alrighty. I will talk to you in a few days. Didn't you fricking love Dr. K? I mean, holy cow. So, I just am kind of in awe of what we just did and I wanna take a moment and thank you so much for your time and attention today. And I also wanna thank you for being here and choosing to watch us today. I mean, we just learned about how important your time and attention is, so thank you for giving that to me. It's a real honor. If you have not subscribed yet, hit subscribe right here. And if you loved this conversation with the incredible Dr. K, you are going to, uh, like, heartbreaking open amazing, gonna love, love, love this episode that I did with Dr. Robert Waldinger. He talks about what makes for a good life and what he said might shock you. I cannot wait to see you there.
Episode duration: 1:11:03
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