Communicate with Confidence: The Blueprint for Mastering Every Conversation

Jefferson Fisher 0:00 What you say is who you are. The power to communicate is that you compress your entire personality into just what they hear you say, because what is sent is not what is received. So what you thought you said is not what they heard.

Mel Robbins 0:19 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 0:19 The question is, what did you hear? People will admire you more. They will see you as somebody with more respect and more confidence every time when you say what you want to say fully.

Mel Robbins 0:30 No wonder so many people follow you. Hey, it's your friend, Mel. I am so excited that you're here. It's always such an honor to spend time with you and to be together. And if you're brand new, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. I also want to take a moment and just acknowledge you for taking time

Mel Robbins 0:48 to listen to something that can truly help you live a better life. I've been super stressed because I've got some big deadlines with my next book coming out. And look, I'm human. I can try my best, but there are days where I still take my stress out on my family. And when I snap at them, I'm always quick to apologize, and I'm always saying, "I'm really sorry. I didn't mean to be a jerk. I didn't mean to use that tone of voice." I was just so stressed. Well, according to Jefferson Fisher, who is in our Boston studios today, blaming your bad behavior on stress is a bad apology. There's a better way for you to communicate, and you and I are going to learn how to be a better communicator from Jefferson Fisher. Let me tell you a little about him. He's a trial lawyer who has millions of followers online who turn to him every single day for his powerful and poignant communication tips. Jefferson says, "What you say is who you are." You can learn how to be more articulate, confident, and persuasive. And you know what I love most about Jefferson, is that the videos that millions of people are watching every day, he's making them in the front seat of his car in between court cases and meetings with his clients. His advice is simple, packs a powerful punch. So I tracked him down, and Jefferson has put his cases on hold. He's flown here from Texas to be in our Boston studios to tell you and me exactly what to say and when you should say nothing at all. Jefferson, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

Jefferson Fisher 2:18 Mel Robbins. Thank you for having me.

Mel Robbins 2:19 Oh my gosh, I'm so thrilled that you are here. Where I would really love to start is, Jefferson, could you tell the person listening how their life might change if they take everything that you're about to share with us today to heart and they apply it in their life?

Jefferson Fisher 2:37 They will have the power to change everything they could want to about their life,

Jefferson Fisher 2:45 their relationships, and where they want to go, because for the vast majority of people, and especially any person who listens right now, what you say is who you are to people. That's the only time they will experience who you are. You can't be a kind person if you don't say kind things. When you hear somebody say, "Oh, that person was nice," well, what you mean is they said nice things to me. Same thing if somebody's rude. You, you hear something you don't like. So it's the power to communicate. And the tips that I give are short, concise, of how they can be better and improve the next conversation that they have.

Mel Robbins 3:30 I freaking love that. I've never heard anybody describe the power of your words in the way in which you communicate-

Jefferson Fisher 3:39 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 3:39 ... that the things that you say is who you are.

Jefferson Fisher 3:42 It, it's your entire ... It's the only way they'll experience you. Like, they might see that kind deed. The vast majority of the time, they're going to only hear what you say. So you find that the power to communicate is that you compress your entire personality into just what they hear you say.

Mel Robbins 4:03 Huh.

Jefferson Fisher 4:03 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 4:04 Now, I think everybody who is either, like, shy or a little insecure or feels maybe like they're an introvert-

Jefferson Fisher 4:13 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 4:13 ... is now like, "Oh, gosh."

Jefferson Fisher 4:14 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 4:15 "'Cause I keep my mouth shut." Can anybody learn to be a better communicator?

Jefferson Fisher 4:19 Anybody can. It, it doesn't matter if you say two words or 20 words. Often, you can say a lot with less than you can with more words. So it's, it's not about, "Oh, I'm an introvert. I'm too shy. I could never..." That's not the point. More words is not better communication.

Mel Robbins 4:38 Ooh, I love that too. I, I'm gonna learn a lot from you because I tend to be somebody who just vomits it all out, and I feel like I could learn how to say less.

Jefferson Fisher 4:48 Well, that's not a bad thing. And sometimes it's not, it's not bad to, to say more either.

Mel Robbins 4:52 We'll see what you think about my communication style. I'm curious, because I love following you online. Millions of people have discovered you and love watching you as you sit in the front seat of your car. You're squeezing this advice in in between cases that you're doing in court, in between meetings with clients. How did you get started doing this, and why do you think millions of people are

Mel Robbins 5:14 following you-

Jefferson Fisher 5:14 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 5:15 ... and loving your advice?

Jefferson Fisher 5:16 Well, thank you. I left a big defense firm-

Mel Robbins 5:20 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 5:20 ... that big law, and I s- just, I wasn't happy anymore. I was a partner there, and I went from having a team to just being by myself with my laptop in coffee shops. And I started thinking, "Well, I need to get on social media." And then that quickly turned into, "I feel like I'm selling myself." You see all these billboards with personal injury attorneys. I thought, "That's not who I want to be. What can I do to just be a light in the world? What, what's my legacy going to be?"

Mel Robbins 5:47 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 5:47 And I, I guide my principles on, "Is this something my kids would be proud of?" So that really hits home for me of, "What kind of legacy can I leave even if I'm not here?" And so I decided I was going to teach people on something that I feel I know better than anybody in my world, and that's how to communicate, the lessons that I've learned. So I got my phone in my car and made my first How to Argue Like a Lawyer video.

Mel Robbins 6:15 Wow. And the rest is history.

Jefferson Fisher 6:16 And the rest is history. So it's been almost two years.

Mel Robbins 6:20 And millions and millions of followers online.

Jefferson Fisher 6:22 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 6:23 And why do you think people follow you?

Jefferson Fisher 6:25 The videos are short.

Mel Robbins 6:26 Uh-huh.

Jefferson Fisher 6:27 Uh, they're very succinct.

Mel Robbins 6:29 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 6:29 And they give them that light bulb moment of, "Oh, I could do that." What I talk about's very practical. Uh, what I talk about is not hypothetical. It's not based on some study. It is in the trenches. It's real conflict that we deal with, from opposing attorneys to having to argue before judges. You have your own clients that may or may not agree with you. So it's communicating at all different levels that's very practical and relatable, and giving it to them in a way that they're like, "Hey, this guy's... He's an attorney, but yet he's in his car and he's-"

Mel Robbins 7:02 (laughs)

Jefferson Fisher 7:02 "... talking to me like I'm a real human." It's... Yeah, it's not that hard.

Mel Robbins 7:06 Well, what I love about what you're saying, and this is true, is that most of us, I believe, especially when we are either uncomfortable or we have to have a difficult conversation, we focus on this idea that you have to win.

Jefferson Fisher 7:22 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 7:23 And a lot of people see lawyers and they think, "Oh, it's all about arguing and winning," and you forget the fact that, no, you actually have to navigate judges, and juries, and court officers, and clerks-

Jefferson Fisher 7:34 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 7:34 ... and other attorneys that you're gonna see, and the ability to have people listen is just as important. What do you think

Mel Robbins 7:42 most of us get wrong about how we communicate?

Jefferson Fisher 7:48 That arguments are something to win, not something to unravel. I teach that arguments are, are knots in the conversation, and what gets worse is when you pull your way and I pull my way, versus looking at it and saying, "Help me with the knot. How can we unravel this? How can we smooth that out?" Never win an argument. If somebody's telling you, or teaching you, or you read some book on how to win every argument, they're just selling you something.

Mel Robbins 8:16 Okay, then let me give you an example. You ready?

Jefferson Fisher 8:17 I'm ready.

Mel Robbins 8:18 Last night, we go out to dinner. It is my mother-in-law's 87th birthday.

Jefferson Fisher 8:21 Happy birthday.

Mel Robbins 8:22 Yes. Happy birthday to Judy. And so we're out with the family, and I, of course, have a conversation that happened at the table. I said something that I immediately wanted to take back. My husband and I are now leaving. We've all been there, right?

Jefferson Fisher 8:37 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 8:37 You have stuck foot in mouth. Your partner is now angry with you. We get into th- the car. I was not driving. Somebody else was driving. So we hop into the Uber, and Chris turns to me and he's like, "Why did you have to say that?"

Jefferson Fisher 8:52 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 8:52 And so can you explain, in this situation that I think we can all relate to, where now you are about to have an argument with somebody and you are describing that arguments are like a knot. So what do I do in this situation where I'm about to go into full-on defend me mode? How do I get out of this mess?

Jefferson Fisher 9:14 Yeah. (laughs) Well, sometimes it just takes a big shovel, but any time there's miscommunication, it is... Because what is sent is not what is received. So what you thought you said is not what they heard.

Mel Robbins 9:29 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 9:29 And often, you're just on different frequencies. If I were to turn my radio to '90s country-

Mel Robbins 9:36 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 9:36 ... which I love, and you turned it on, I don't know, let's say 2000s R&B-

Mel Robbins 9:41 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 9:42 ... you'd be going, "This sounds great." I'm like, "Uh, no, this sounds great." And we're still rocking to our own sounds, and we're not on the same channel. And so when you're in that back seat and you're talking

Jefferson Fisher 9:55 with Chris, and he's going, "Why'd you say that?" The question is, "What did you hear?"

Mel Robbins 10:00 Oh.

Jefferson Fisher 10:01 And so it's that understanding of, "What did you hear when I said that? Because I know what I meant, but what did you hear?" And so it's this pushing of, when it's only going how you say it in your head, nobody else is hearing that.

Mel Robbins 10:17 What did you hear?

Jefferson Fisher 10:19 Right.

Mel Robbins 10:19 That's amazing, because the second he said, "Why did you say that?" I felt attacked.

Jefferson Fisher 10:27 Of course.

Mel Robbins 10:28 And as I sit here in the, like, bright daylight, right-

Jefferson Fisher 10:33 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 10:33 ... and I've got distance from it, I don't actually think I put my foot in my mouth.

Jefferson Fisher 10:36 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 10:37 I know what my intention was.

Jefferson Fisher 10:38 You know.

Mel Robbins 10:39 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 10:40 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 10:40 And so the next time you're in an argument with somebody and that knot starts to build, and you can feel yourself yanking on it 'cause you go into a mode of defending yourself-

Jefferson Fisher 10:51 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 10:52 ... if somebody says to you, "Why did you say that?" or they attack you on something, your response is, "What did you hear?"

Jefferson Fisher 11:00 Exactly.

Mel Robbins 11:01 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 11:02 Well, and to... Your defense, to ask somebody, "Why you said that?", that why word puts everybody on the defense because it sounds like you're attacking... You're undermining their credibility.

Mel Robbins 11:13 Okay, so let's reverse the roles here.

Jefferson Fisher 11:15 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 11:15 Let's say my husband Chris says something really stupid or, like, you know, that I'm like, "Why would he say something like that?" If I'm now the one en- in the car with him-

Jefferson Fisher 11:25 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 11:25 ... and he has said something at a party or, like, around family that I just wanted to reach out and choke him. Obviously I wouldn't, but what would you say instead of, "Why would you say that?"

Jefferson Fisher 11:37 I would use the word what instead of starting with why-

Mel Robbins 11:40 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 11:40 ... which puts you on the defensive. 'Cause when you say why, well, the first thing you wanna say is, "Because I said so. That's why."

Mel Robbins 11:46 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 11:47 Uh, that autonomy that you feel. But instead, it's the, the what. "What was going through your head when that happened?" Or, "What made you say this?" It's that curiosity of-

Mel Robbins 11:57 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 11:57 ... "I'm just curious of, of how you got there." Instead of the pushing the why. "Why'd you do this? Why'd you do it that way?"

Mel Robbins 12:05 I love that, 'cause you're right. One is judgment-

Jefferson Fisher 12:08 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 12:08 ... and the other is curiosity.

Jefferson Fisher 12:10 Right.

Mel Robbins 12:10 One is poking and the other is leaning in.

Jefferson Fisher 12:13 It's the whole student versus, uh, teacher mentality. Instead of feeling like you're having to push...... you're having something to, to learn about it.

Mel Robbins 12:20 No wonder so many people follow you.

Jefferson Fisher 12:22 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 12:22 What, what do you... What is the secret to getting better to talking to people?

Jefferson Fisher 12:25 It's not really a secret as much it is a process of wanting to express yourself in a way of saying what you mean more. Because often you wanna say the thing, but you're hesitant about it. You're not sure exactly how you wanna put it across, so you feel like you need to kinda dance around it.

Mel Robbins 12:46 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 12:47 And often, you just need to jump right in.

Mel Robbins 12:49 That sounds scary for a lot of people.

Jefferson Fisher 12:51 It is scary. But I mean, you, you cold plunge.

Mel Robbins 12:54 (laughs)

Jefferson Fisher 12:54 Uh, you know, so... (laughs) Y- it's, it's worse when you go inch by inch.

Mel Robbins 12:58 So can you give us an example, especially as you're listening to Jefferson, if you have a conversation or there's something that you wish you could communicate more effectively, how do you do it?

Jefferson Fisher 13:11 Let's put it in terms of a difficult conversation for them. So whoever's listening, I want you to imagine you are about to walk into somebody's office, and there's gonna be that hard conversation in the room. And let's just say it's a topic of something that is, it's bad news. Put your mind wherever it is. You walk in and somebody goes, "So, uh, so how are you? How are you lately? You been good? Pickleball games? All right. Well, that's, that's good. Well, um, your family's good? Well, listen, uh, hey, uh, I, I have something that we've been talking about. And listen, I, I know it's not that big of a deal, and I, I want you to understand."

Mel Robbins 13:49 You're making me panicked-

Jefferson Fisher 13:50 Exactly.

Mel Robbins 13:50 ... as I'm listening to you, Jefferson.

Jefferson Fisher 13:51 Because it's that fear of the unknown, Mel, versus, let's say, the different

Jefferson Fisher 13:55 scenario.

Mel Robbins 13:55 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 13:55 You come in and say, "Thank you for meeting with me. Mel, I have bad news." You deliver that bad news. Versus, "This isn't gonna be a fun conversation," and you say that. "This isn't gonna be fun for us to talk about. This isn't my favorite conversation to have." You prepare them for it. Often, you're afraid to disappoint people.

Mel Robbins 14:18 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 14:18 And what that really is, is you don't believe that they have enough emotional resiliency to handle it. So you need to, to baby them, to tiptoe into the water instead of dipping right in. People will admire you more, they will see you as somebody with more respect and more confidence every time when you say what you wanna say fully.

Mel Robbins 14:39 Wow. Do you do that with your kids too?

Jefferson Fisher 14:42 As much as I can, but of course, I'm... in a very loving way.

Mel Robbins 14:46 Gotcha.

Jefferson Fisher 14:46 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 14:47 I mean, it makes sense because I think a lot of the advices, and I will admit, I think I've even given this advice in the past, is like, "Okay, well, make a sandwich. Gotta say something positive, and then you stick in the meat, which is the negative part-"

Jefferson Fisher 14:58 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 14:58 ... and people see it coming.

Jefferson Fisher 14:59 Yeah, I don't like the sandwich.

Mel Robbins 15:01 Okay, you just go right for the meat?

Jefferson Fisher 15:02 Well, you can put in some bread, but I feel like it's disingenuous to make them have to go, "Wh- what do you mean? What are you saying? What do you..." Y- you kinda have to just sit there and wait, and it's painful, rather than going right into it. I th- uh, there's still a place to be kind. There's still a place to be very direct. And, and how you talk to your kids depends on your kids' age. How I speak to my four- and six-year-old is different to how my father spoke to me when I was 16, when I would come to him and complain, and he'd, and he'd go, "You don't have to like it. You just need to understand it."

Mel Robbins 15:36 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 15:37 And it's that whole different mentality of, "I can deliver all the truth and still be kind."

Mel Robbins 15:45 I wanna pull that thread for a minute, because one of the reasons why we do not communicate directly with people is because we believe that if somebody can't handle the truth, or if they're gonna have a, an emotional reaction, or if they're gonna feel, like, upset or disappointed in themselves, that somehow it's kinder to avoid it or soft-pedal it or not be as direct. And what you teach in a very effective way is that it's actually one of the cruelest things you can do to somebody, to lead them on, to not tell them the truth, to lie to their face and treat them one way but then go behind closed doors and actually complain about what they're doing and not tell them.

Jefferson Fisher 16:38 Wholeheartedly.

Mel Robbins 16:39 And that somewhere along the line, we have confused kindness with actually lying to people. And that's actually cruel.

Jefferson Fisher 16:50 In one of the worst ways, especially for people that you love. Whenever you skirt around the truth, whenever you come at a conversation in a very indirect way, you are saying to them, "I don't believe you're emotionally strong enough to handle this." Versus me saying, "Mel, I'm telling you this because I know you can handle it."

Mel Robbins 17:11 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 17:12 Now you strengthen them. And often what you say, you, you, you're giving them th- the armor to handle it. You're giving them the backpack for the trip that they're about to be on.

Mel Robbins 17:22 Ooh, I love that. And you know what else I loved is I love that thing you added there. So you've... I, I wanna make sure that as you're listening, you are sticking these takeaways into that backpack that Jefferson just alluded to. And so you said, first of all, that you just go right in. Like, just jump right into the deep end of the pool. Don't be tap-dancing around the topic and delay getting to it. This

Mel Robbins 17:48 is not gonna be an easy conversation. But then you just added this thing that I loved, which is, "But I'm telling you this because I know you can handle it, and I want you to hear the truth," or, "I want you to know how I feel about this," or, "I... You don't have to like it, but you need to know this." And you just lifted me up a little bit when you said, "I'm telling you this because I think you can handle it." And that makes me go, "Yeah, I think I can too, so lay it on me, even though it's gonna suck."

Jefferson Fisher 18:15 Yeah, exactly. You have to... In many ways, what you say to them is going to give them the value that you want them to hold.So, I'm telling you this because I know you believe in transparency. I'm coming to you with this, and I know it's not fun to talk about. You're somebody who can handle it. I know you have big shoulders. You, you tell them the quality that you want them to have.

Mel Robbins 18:36 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 18:36 And they, and they will rise up to it. They'll stand up straight into it.

Mel Robbins 18:40 Oh, I love that. You tell someone the qualities that you want them to have, and people rise up into it.

Jefferson Fisher 18:48 E- every time. When you say something to them, for example, let's say, "Mel, I, I know that you're somebody that takes value in people's words, or that you value patience." They'll go, "Oh, yeah." And in their mind-

Mel Robbins 19:01 (laughs)

Jefferson Fisher 19:01 ... they're thinking, "Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm patient. Yeah."

Mel Robbins 19:03 (laughs)

Jefferson Fisher 19:04 "Hey, Greg. I'm telling you this because I know you, you have an open mind." All of a sudden, Greg's like, "I do have an open mind. Yes, I do."

Mel Robbins 19:10 (laughs)

Jefferson Fisher 19:11 And so-

Mel Robbins 19:12 (laughs)

Jefferson Fisher 19:12 ... you, it is. You, you, you tweak the... You can do that in, same thing when you walk into a room. So if you don't feel comfortable saying it directly about the person, you can-

Mel Robbins 19:19 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 19:19 ... say what this room is. I-

Mel Robbins 19:21 What do you mean? What does that mean?

Jefferson Fisher 19:22 You, you walk in and say, "I want to make sure that this room is one that I can be entirely truthful in."

Mel Robbins 19:27 So where would you use that? Like at work?

Jefferson Fisher 19:30 Yeah. Let's say you're in somebody's office.

Mel Robbins 19:32 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 19:32 It doesn't have to be like the room of truth. I'm just saying like it, wherever you are.

Mel Robbins 19:36 You say that to yourself or you say that-

Jefferson Fisher 19:37 Say that out loud.

Mel Robbins 19:38 Out loud.

Jefferson Fisher 19:38 "I want to make sure that this is a place of honesty. I want to make sure that I'm speaking in a place that's free to say what I need to say. Are we good with that?" And they go, "Yeah."

Mel Robbins 19:48 I love this because, you know, in, in lawyer speak, you're basically leading a witness.

Jefferson Fisher 19:53 Oh, yeah.

Mel Robbins 19:54 But it works like a charm, and I've never really thought about that as a strategy to tell people how I want you to react to something.

Jefferson Fisher 20:03 And you add that on to what I call a, a frame in the, in the conversation. So you, you tell somebody... You go a, a step further, and that is you tell them how you want the conversation to end.

Mel Robbins 20:14 Okay, so tell me this.

Jefferson Fisher 20:15 So let's say, uh, you made a comment at dinner-

Mel Robbins 20:20 Yes. Last night.

Jefferson Fisher 20:21 ... or something.

Mel Robbins 20:21 Okay, yes.

Jefferson Fisher 20:22 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 20:22 Okay. (laughs)

Jefferson Fisher 20:22 So... And, and it's this concept of you tell them what you want to talk about. You tell them how you want to feel after you end the conversation, and you get their agreement to it. You'd step into it and say, "I'd like to talk to you about a comment you made last night at dinner, and I want to walk away from that conversation knowing that this isn't a topic you're gonna bring up again in front of other people. That sound good?"

Mel Robbins 20:46 That, that sounds like I'm in trouble, Just-

Jefferson Fisher 20:47 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 20:47 ... Jefferson.

Jefferson Fisher 20:48 It could, it-

Mel Robbins 20:48 So now, I'm literally going-

Jefferson Fisher 20:49 It might be.

Mel Robbins 20:49 ... "I'm not gonna bring it up ever again."

Jefferson Fisher 20:50 Do it.

Mel Robbins 20:51 But-

Jefferson Fisher 20:51 But you get what I mean? Or-

Mel Robbins 20:52 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 20:53 Or let's say, um, "A comment that you made at a meeting last week, and I want to make sure that you and I are on the same wavelength the next meeting that we have. Does that work?" And they go, "That works." And now you have a frame, and now you know exactly what the conversation is about and what it's not about. Because if you talk about everything, then you, you really talk about nothing. You've had those meetings where, "All right, everybody. We got a, we got a lot to do today. We have a lot to talk about," and you leave those meetings feeling like you really didn't-

Mel Robbins 21:20 Like every meeting that I lead.

Jefferson Fisher 21:21 ... you didn't talk about anything.

Mel Robbins 21:22 Yes. That-

Jefferson Fisher 21:23 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 21:23 ... that's every meeting that

Mel Robbins 21:24 I lead. So-

Jefferson Fisher 21:24 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 21:24 ... now I'm gonna use your technique. Um, question for you. How do you talk to somebody that you don't like?

Jefferson Fisher 21:32 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 21:33 Nobody wants to feel fake, but what do you do?

Jefferson Fisher 21:39 Well, if you're in a position where you have to talk to somebody you don't like-

Mel Robbins 21:44 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 21:45 ... that does not give you any reason to be less likable. It's that mentality of, you know, "Don't argue with a fool because on- onlookers won't know the difference." Um, I forgot who said that quote, but it's that idea of if you're talking to somebody you don't like, well, you're going to talk to them as if you do.

Mel Robbins 22:03 How do you do that?

Jefferson Fisher 22:04 You just be who you are. Understand that you're not trying to convince the other person to like you.

Mel Robbins 22:09 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 22:09 Or convince yourself to like the other person. You're convincing the people around you because they're watching you. They're watching how you talk to somebody. They're watching how you treat other people. And if you need to, just, just go neutral. Just, just stick with basic facts instead of trying to get cute and make these offhand comments and roll your eyes and cross your arms. Instead, just be very neutral in the conversation. They ask you what time it is. Instead of going, "Well, you know, uh, if you were here, or..."

Mel Robbins 22:36 (laughs)

Jefferson Fisher 22:36 Or, or you... It's obvi- so you don't got a watch? Okay. (laughs) Uh, instead of doing that, you just tell them the time. Be very quick with it. Get in, get out. You don't need to have more conversation than you need to, but you never want to give somebody a reason, especially somebody who's not in the conversation, not to like you.

Mel Robbins 22:52 How do you handle somebody that kind of belittles you? They're like picking on your weight, or they're-

Jefferson Fisher 22:59 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 22:59 ... constantly like, "Are you still single?"

Jefferson Fisher 23:02 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 23:02 Like, you know like, you know like, you know how people like, especially people-

Jefferson Fisher 23:04 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 23:05 ... that you're close with have a way of belittling you?

Jefferson Fisher 23:07 Right.

Mel Robbins 23:08 What do you do in those situations?

Jefferson Fisher 23:10 When somebody is belittling you or giving you a insult and that hurtful comment, you make them say it again, because what they're hoping to do in that belittling comment is get that reaction out of you. And instead, you find a way to take all the fun out of it. So when you ask them to repeat what they said, you're not giving them that hit of dopamine that they're expecting from your reaction. They're not getting that, that response time from you. Instead, you're delaying that gratification for them. Then it's just not worth it. Then it's just not fun. And so when you ask them to repeat it, just say, "I need you to say that again."

Mel Robbins 23:48 I- we need to role play this.

Jefferson Fisher 23:50 Sure.

Mel Robbins 23:51 Um, I'm trying to think of a scenario.

Jefferson Fisher 23:52 Like you just said right there, um, "You're still single."

Mel Robbins 23:56 I need you to repeat that.

Jefferson Fisher 23:57 Yeah. You, so-

Mel Robbins 23:58 (laughs)

Jefferson Fisher 23:59 Exactly. Now I'm not gonna want to say that again, because now that spotlight is on me. Then also what you'd lead up with that is you ask questions of intent. For example, "Did you say that to hurt me?" And now it's this mirror that they feel like, "Why did I say that? Oh, okay." And then they start to backtrack. Then you don't have to say anything. So if y- uh, somebody says to you, uh, "Oh, so you're still single?"... "I need you to say that again." Most likely, they're not going to say that again. But if they do, then you can even repeat what they said. "I'm still single. That's what you asked me?" And all of a sudden they realize, "This isn't fun." They're not gonna ask that kind of thing again.

Mel Robbins 24:46 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 24:46 Or you just ask that question of, "Did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to offend me?" "Oh, no, no, no, no. I didn't say that. I, w- well, what I meant was..." And all of a sudden they're backing away, because they know you're gonna stand your ground.

Mel Robbins 24:57 Wow. This is, like, very eye-opening, because I can see both situations where I need to use it, and I can see situations where I probably say things, and I'm thinking particularly to my adult kids-

Jefferson Fisher 25:15 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 25:15 ... that probably feels belittling. I can think about, like, our daughter out in Los Angeles, and every time I see her, she's wearing a piece of clothing-

Jefferson Fisher 25:24 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 25:24 ... that I (laughs) don't recognize. And so, I think to myself, and oftentimes I will say, "Is that new?" And I'm thinking in my mind, "Where, w- where, where do you get the money for this," you know?

Jefferson Fisher 25:37 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 25:38 Like that kind of thing? And then she's literally like, "Yeah, I thrifted it," and there's this little tiff thing. But if she were to say to me-

Jefferson Fisher 25:43 Yeah. If, if, if she were to ask you the question-

Mel Robbins 25:45 ... "Are you trying to embarrass me, like?"

Jefferson Fisher 25:46 Yeah, exactly.

Mel Robbins 25:47 Or, or like-

Jefferson Fisher 25:48 "Are you, are you trying to insinuate something? Uh, are you trying to say something that you're not wanting to tell me?"

Mel Robbins 25:53 'Cause you're right. The question is what I'm saying on the surface, but-

Jefferson Fisher 25:58 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 25:58 ... what I'm actually accusing her of is not being responsible with her money.

Jefferson Fisher 26:03 It's that mirror.

Mel Robbins 26:04 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 26:04 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 26:05 Yes. So-

Jefferson Fisher 26:05 And so, it takes away the power of their insult-

Mel Robbins 26:08 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 26:09 ... when you can take all the fun out of it. You take all the oxygen out of their room when they realize that they are not gonna be able to control you with that reaction that they were hoping to get from you.

Mel Robbins 26:19 How do you respond to disrespect?

Jefferson Fisher 26:22 A lot of silence. So often, if you just wait 10 seconds, you're gonna add distance between what they said and how you're going to respond. 'Cause what they're wanting when somebody's disrespectful is, same way with belittling, they're saying this to get something out of you, 'cause in that moment, they're feeling something. Whether it's a fear, an insecurity, whatever it is, you're not going to deliver on that same plane that they are. You're not gonna be on that same level. So if somebody says something disrespectful, you give enough silence to make sure that it's a little awkward, and then you're going to say something to the effect of, "That's below my standard for a response." And then all of a sudden, they feel like the, the dynamic has been flipped. Something as simple as that. All of a sudden you're now making it clear that, "What you just said was beneath me, and I don't respond to things that are beneath me in that way." And so now you're taking control of it. Now you're leaning into it. What they thought was meant as a disrespect, they're now understanding that they're in the wrong place.

Mel Robbins 27:29 I was with somebody yesterday who had just visited their mother.

Jefferson Fisher 27:33 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 27:34 And I said to her, you know, like, "How did it go?" And she said, "Well, it was fine, but it's my mother. And the thing that drives me crazy is she is extremely disrespectful-"

Jefferson Fisher 27:45 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 27:46 "... to anybody that is waiting on us at a restaurant. Like, so much so that the owner came over and said something to her." Is there a way to respond when someone else is throwing a fit or is being disrespectful? Is there something that you can say to somebody in that situation?

Jefferson Fisher 28:09 Depends

Jefferson Fisher 28:11 h- how your relationship is with that person. I would advise that whoever they're disrespecting, you don't join in it and you make it clear that that is not your behavior. So you're gonna be the person that is kind to this person. So I've had it before. My grandfather came with me to Walmart. This was a terrible time. Uh, and (laughs) he was, he was in a bad mood, and he was crotchety to everybody we talked to. But I was the one that was, "Thank you so much for helping us. I appreciate it. Thank you so much," being overly, "Hey, I understand. Thank you." And then you have that conversation. I had to have that conversation with my grandfather, and I-

Mel Robbins 28:46 How did you do that?

Jefferson Fisher 28:47 I had to put a boundary, uh, a very firm boundary of, "If this is the way you're gonna talk to people, I can't come with you. If you don't change the tone in which you're talking to people, Pop, I c- I can't, I can't come." And so it very was, uh, "Wh- what, what, what am I saying?" "Uh, you're not being s- respectful to people." "Yes, I am." "I would not be telling you this if you had been respectful to people." It's the people you love, often you have to be their biggest mirror of protecting them also for how other people see them. And so, I love my grandfather. I want other people to love him. And that means I also have to make sure that I need to prepare him in a loving way of being very direct of, "This is how you're talking to people."

Mel Robbins 29:31 Has he changed?

Jefferson Fisher 29:32 He has.

Mel Robbins 29:33 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 29:33 We also just don't go to Walmart, so. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 29:36 (laughs) Oh, my gosh.

Jefferson Fisher 29:37 It's just saying, "I feel," instead of, "I think," it is, "I feel," if that is a feeling that you actually have. In other words, um, separating the person from the problem. For example, let's say you need to criticize a proposal that somebody had, or a presentation.

Mel Robbins 29:55 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 29:55 Instead of using the word you with it, "Your presentation," that's gonna get them defensive. Instead, make it a third person, "The proposal, the presentation. The presentation could benefit from a few changes," instead of, "Your proposal wasn't that great." So you find ways of objectifying the... You're separating the person from the problem itself. So that's a way of expressing how you feel about a certain thing, but-

Mel Robbins 30:19 Can I stop you right there?

Jefferson Fisher 30:20 Of course.

Mel Robbins 30:21 'Cause I immediately see an application as a parent-

Jefferson Fisher 30:24 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 30:25 ... or as a roommate, where, as a parent, personally, I will throw myself under the bus here-

Jefferson Fisher 30:31 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 30:32 ... I have never done that.Your room is a mess. Your stuff is everywhere. It's accusation, accusation, accusation. So how would you use this-

Jefferson Fisher 30:43 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 30:44 ... technique to be more effective at communicating when you're talking to kids or you're talking to somebody that you live with and you want to use the strategy of removing the kind of, "You're wrong"-

Jefferson Fisher 30:58 Right.

Mel Robbins 30:59 ... from the thing that

Mel Robbins 31:00 you want them to do?

Jefferson Fisher 31:01 Can I give the listeners a thought?

Mel Robbins 31:02 Absolutely.

Jefferson Fisher 31:03 And that is-

Mel Robbins 31:03 You can do whatever you want.

Jefferson Fisher 31:04 So let's say... Well, you and I are at a table, right now.

Mel Robbins 31:08 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 31:08 And let's say you and I are disagreeing about something.

Mel Robbins 31:10 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 31:11 And in the middle of the room, let's just put this as the problem.

Mel Robbins 31:14 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 31:14 This is the problem.

Mel Robbins 31:15 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 31:15 This is how I see the problem.

Mel Robbins 31:17 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 31:17 And you're gonna argue, this is how you see the problem.

Mel Robbins 31:19 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 31:19 Great. Now, the issue between us is not each other. It's the problem. But in the real conversation, it's hard to get out of that. Instead, it's me pulling my chair and saying, "Mel, come over here. Come sit next to me. Let's talk about this problem. What are we going to do about this?" So instead of, "Your room's not clean," "I see that the room is, still isn't clean. What should we do about it?" It's that idea of trying to get them to, "Let's look at the problem together." Uh, how do you find ways to... That- that's what I mean by separating the person from the problem. Instead of getting onto you and saying how, "You're lazy, you don't understand, you're so stupid. You're such an idiot," instead of that, the problem is the problem on the table. "Come sit next to me and let's talk about the problem." And now, instead of opponents, we're teammates.

Mel Robbins 32:09 Your kids are screwed.

Jefferson Fisher 32:11 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 32:11 I mean, I, you are... I- I had this whole visual, as you were saying this, of me, like frustrated, yelling or stressed or exacerbated about, like the pile of laundry or the-

Jefferson Fisher 32:24 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 32:25 ... state of the room or whatever it is, and then making a fuss about the problem-

Jefferson Fisher 32:30 Right.

Mel Robbins 32:30 ... which only puts somebody on the defensive.

Jefferson Fisher 32:33 Every time.

Mel Robbins 32:33 Versus, like imagine if you're standing in front of the kitchen sink with your family, or you're standing in front of the living room with your roommate, right? And you're like, "This room's pretty messy."

Jefferson Fisher 32:46 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 32:47 "What should we do about it?"

Jefferson Fisher 32:49 Exactly.

Mel Robbins 32:49 Completely different approach.

Jefferson Fisher 32:51 Uh, without a doubt. And it's this idea of having kind of a need check, of saying, "Let's take a timeout. I want to make sure that I have time with y'all to do X activities. We also have a need to do the dishes. I need help with that." Or, "I have a need for your room to be clean. I have a need for this house to be clean. What's your need? How can we help with that?" So when you use the word help, people love to be helpful.

Mel Robbins 33:20 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 33:21 This ability to, instead of just attacking them, that, "You don't understand, you don't get it, you're lazy or you don't care," those are all words that just cut for no reason when your problem is not them, the problem is the issue.

Mel Robbins 33:36 Wow. You could use this with anything.

Jefferson Fisher 33:38 Anything.

Mel Robbins 33:38 You could use this if, if somebody's playing too much video games. You could use this if somebody's not taking care of themselves. The problem isn't the person, it's the issue that is bothering you, and this need that you have to see somebody either doing better or to see the house picked up or to see, like people helping out. That's fricking genius. I'm a little concerned because given that I'm a talker, it's easy for me to take this advice and just go blah blah. Like, I can apply it immediately, because I am not uncomfortable talking to other people. And I haven't had social anxiety since law school. But there are a ton of people that listen who do. And I can think of a particular friend of mine who is so amazing, and the second she's around other people, she just kind of clams up. Do you have s- any specific strategies or advice for somebody who would like to be better about just speaking and feeling more confident about it, or feeling like, "I can display authority a certain way"?

Jefferson Fisher 34:56 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 34:57 If there are certain phrases or strategies,

Mel Robbins 35:01 like what, how do you coach people in becoming more comfortable in that regard?

Jefferson Fisher 35:06 I coach people the same way I coach my legal clients.

Mel Robbins 35:08 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 35:09 And I walk them through a series of steps, 'cause you know as well as I do, when we send somebody out to be cross-examined, we're giving them up to the wolves-

Mel Robbins 35:19 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 35:19 ... in many ways. I mean, their credibility, uh, you have somebody who wants to hurt their credibility. There's somebody who wants to prove them wrong, call them a liar. So how do you equip them with the armor to, to take that on? Some of the basics of what I talk about is I want them to feel that they can say things very succinctly, meaning, often people who are nervous to talk have that social anxiety. They say too much, then they felt like they didn't say anything at all afterwards.

Mel Robbins 35:48 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 35:49 And that just means they're watering down what they're saying.

Mel Robbins 35:52 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 35:53 "Let's put this in a scenario. Okay, so, hey, sorry to bother you, Mel, uh, but I have this... Well, I mean, it's not really this thing, but it's... Uh, okay, so essentially, what I, what I really want to say is this isn't really something I- I'm too, too comfortable with," you know? But I mean, that is what you see the 99% of.

Mel Robbins 36:13 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 36:13 The 1% says, takes a breath, lets their breath be the first word that they say, and says, "This is not something I'm comfortable with." Period. You see how different it is?

Mel Robbins 36:25 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 36:25 The same thing, same bull- I mean, it's the same objective. One is watered down, the other is served to you straight.And so, you find ways to eliminate the water from, uh, your drink, so to speak. You gotta get rid of all the ice cubes, the over-apologizing, the, uh, putting your words down before you even get them out. That's where you experience real growth and real change in your sentences.

Mel Robbins 36:53 I wanna make sure that as you were listening to Jefferson, you actually heard that. Because the single most important thing that you said was, "Taking a breath-"

Jefferson Fisher 37:04 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 37:04 "... is the first word."

Jefferson Fisher 37:06 Exactly.

Mel Robbins 37:06 And so if you're somebody that just opens your mouth and all kinds of stuff starts coming out, and then you start to, of course, feel more anxious 'cause you've lost control of what you're saying, and then that just makes you keep going, and then you get flustered, and then your face turns red-

Jefferson Fisher 37:23 Right.

Mel Robbins 37:23 ... and then now you're like, "I'm never talking again."

Jefferson Fisher 37:26 (laughs) Yeah.

Mel Robbins 37:26 "And I didn't even say what I meant to say."

Jefferson Fisher 37:28 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 37:29 Your breath is the first word.

Jefferson Fisher 37:32 Exactly.

Mel Robbins 37:32 And then you're coaching us to really think about, what do you actually wanna say?

Jefferson Fisher 37:39 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 37:39 And so for somebody that has a hard time in a social setting, and you are walking into a party, you don't know a lot of people, you're walking into a networking meeting, you don't know a lot of people, and you want to prepare yourself to be able to say something, is there an opening line or a way that you recommend that people start to just practice the art of just talking to other people? 'Cause a lot of people find it very challenging to just strike up a conversation

Mel Robbins 38:11 with someone.

Jefferson Fisher 38:13 Yeah. That, that is difficult. I would say that, just focus on one person.

Mel Robbins 38:17 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 38:18 Even though it's a room of plenty, you can be in a room and feel like you talk to everybody, but you just scratched the surface.

Mel Robbins 38:25 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 38:25 Trade that for a real conversation with just one person. So, there's plenty of times where you've left a meeting, or you've left an event and you go, "Man, I really liked this person who I got to spend-"

Mel Robbins 38:37 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 38:37 "... a quality six minutes with."

Mel Robbins 38:40 Yep.

Jefferson Fisher 38:40 Versus just a bunch of pleasantries of, "Oh, hey. How you doing? How's your kids? We should get together," and you never get together.

Mel Robbins 38:45 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 38:46 Um, so I would tell them, one, quantity does not equal quality when it comes to networking or any big rooms like that. It's, it's not how it should work. Just focus on one person. Two, if you wanna break the ice about something, you can always start with something of just how they're doing in their life, what they're excited about, what they're looking forward to.

Mel Robbins 39:09 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 39:10 When you ask the just, "How are you?" people talk about the past. They rarely talk about the future. The future's a lot more exciting, because then you can go a- about something. People typically tend to speak ill of what's been going on. They're bad on it. They're more negative on it. They're typically more positive about the future.

Mel Robbins 39:30 Oh. That's a great tip. So you take a breath, and then you ask somebody, "So what are you excited about?" Or, "Why are you here?" Or what, what would you say if you were walking into a networking meeting?

Jefferson Fisher 39:40 I would say, "What are you most excited about today?" Something as simple as that.

Mel Robbins 39:44 Wow. Well, I'm most excited about talking to you, Jefferson.

Jefferson Fisher 39:46 Yeah. Same here.

Mel Robbins 39:48 Jefferson, one of my favorite videos of yours is where you give advice about answering the question, "How are

Mel Robbins 39:53 you?"

Jefferson Fisher 39:53 I mean, you hear it every day. It's the first thing we tend to ask anybody. You can handle that question a lot better if instead of answering that question talking about the past, in other words, uh, typically people like to say, "I'm good. I'm fine. And it's been okay today," or the another day in paradise kind of-

Mel Robbins 40:11 (laughs)

Jefferson Fisher 40:12 ... thing that you hear and they're living the dream. Uh, it's to talk about what you're excited about. Instead of being backward looking, look forward. You tell them what you're looking forward to. "I'm looking forward to seeing my kids today. I'm excited about the game on Friday." If you talk about the future, it's always a lot more exciting. And also, don't be afraid to be truthful. So, if somebody's asking you how you are, instead of just saying, "Oh, I'm actually doing really bad," it's okay to say, "I'm just feeling a little overcast today." You put it in terms of the weather.

Mel Robbins 40:42 Oh.

Jefferson Fisher 40:42 And it's, it's, uh, it's a lot easier for people that you don't have to worry about the little details. You don't have to worry about the little complexities of, do I need to explain to them everything that's happening that day? Just put it in terms of the weather. "Ah, it's kind of an overcast day for me." "It's a sunny day." "Bad thunderstorms for me today." Find different ways to talk about the weather, and instantly they know how you're doing.

Mel Robbins 41:02 That's really cool. I'm realizing that I'm a massive oversharer.

Jefferson Fisher 41:05 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 41:06 So when somebody asks me, "How are you?" I go into a diatribe of information that they don't need.

Jefferson Fisher 41:12 Well, it's not that they don't need, it's just oversharing can be a hindrance in the long term. It often stems, from what I've seen with clients, is this need to feel believed. Uh, in other words, uh, you feel like they're not buying all what you're saying, so you need to say more, so that they-

Mel Robbins 41:29 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 41:30 ... know how knowledgeable you are, you know how much you know. But the weird thing about that is typically the more you say something, the less it appears you know about it. So, the more words it takes to tell the truth, the more it sounds like a lie. And so, you have to be careful about oversharing, and what I like to tell my clients is, "Instead of being a waterfall, be a well." You know? H- h- be the place that they can draw information from, rather than feeling like you have to overwhelm them and put them on the life raft.

Mel Robbins 42:06 Jefferson, you just changed my life.

Jefferson Fisher 42:07 Oh, good. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 42:09 'Cause I am an avalanche and a waterfall.

Jefferson Fisher 42:12 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 42:13 And I love this idea that you could be a well and keep it closer to the chest-

Jefferson Fisher 42:18 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 42:18 ... and people can dip in and get the information-

Jefferson Fisher 42:23 Exactly.

Mel Robbins 42:24 ... that you wanna give them.

Jefferson Fisher 42:25 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 42:25 A bucket full instead of just barfing all the information out.

Jefferson Fisher 42:29 (laughs) Th- that's another way to put it.

Mel Robbins 42:31 Can you give us advice on how you stand up for yourself?

Jefferson Fisher 42:34 Hmm. So one is, uh, like we talked about, let your breath be the first word that you say, because what that does is tell people that you heard them.... and that you're acknowledging. There's a difference between if you just ask me a question, you say, "Hey, h- how are you doing, Jefferson?" I go, "Good. Good. Real good. Real good," I didn't really listen. Versus, if you ask me that question again, "How are you doing, Jefferson?" And I said, "I'm good. I'm real good." Now it feels like you've stepped into it. Often, when it comes to standing your ground, it is just slowing down your words, not feeling like you have to rush anything. Nobody can make you say anything that you don't want to say. If you just find ways to give it a beat and figure it out, you're gonna be a whole lot better off. Too often, people wait till they're talking to figure out what they want to say.

Mel Robbins 43:24 Oh my God, that's me.

Jefferson Fisher 43:25 They take off... It's like going to the airport and just flying and getting on a plane, and you go, "Where are you landing?" "I have no idea."

Mel Robbins 43:32 (laughs)

Jefferson Fisher 43:32 "I'm just, I just got on the plane. I don't know." You get in the car and they're like, "Where, where are you going?" "Who knows? I'm just going." I say all that to say, like, they finally kinda... They're just going in circles on their plane and they're waiting. You gotta help people land the runway often.

Mel Robbins 43:48 I feel like that is me at work and in life.

Jefferson Fisher 43:50 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 43:50 That I'm one of these people that needs to talk it out, and where I start is never where I land. And I'm realizing, as I'm listening to you, that there's a lot of pre-work-

Jefferson Fisher 44:01 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 44:01 ... that I could do before I walk into a meeting, or before I just start blabbing with my family.

Jefferson Fisher 44:08 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 44:09 And it would be way more effective and helpful for people if I actually knew where I was going

Mel Robbins 44:15 before I opened my mouth.

Jefferson Fisher 44:16 It always helps to have a goal in the conversation. It helps to have conversational values. It helps to have conversational goals.

Mel Robbins 44:22 So talk to me about that. What does, what does that mean to have a conversational goal and a conversational value? If you go back to the original thing that you teach us, which is you get to choose what kind of person you are based on the things that you say and how you say them.

Jefferson Fisher 44:36 Conversational goals is simply where you want to end the conversation. You wanna make sure you understand, uh, what this person meant by this comment. That's your goal. Often, we start talking and then we lose track of where we're going because we're listening to respond, we're not listening to understand. Often, when you go to trial and you're listening to a witness and their direct examination, where bad attorneys go wrong is they just start planning out their next question regardless of what the witness says, versus waiting to hear that whole answer and adapting to it. So conversational goals is just simply where you're headed. It's the destination of where you're going. Conversational values are how you feel authentic to yourself to get there. So, I have conversational values that I use in every conversation that I have to make sure that no matter what happens in the conversation, I can't control anything else but myself, it's my values that drive my response. For example, one of my key conversational values is, if I can't be a bridge, be a lighthouse. In other words, if we can't meet in the middle, if we can't connect in some way, I'm still gonna be a lighthouse for them. I'm still gonna be a source of light that-

Mel Robbins 45:46 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 45:47 ... if they need to come back, they know where I'm at. I have another one that I use, and that is, if there's room for kindness, I will use it. I get that from my mama. I come to her with a complaint and she'd say, "Well, were you kind?" (laughs) I'd say, "Well, mom, y- you don't understand. This person, this person, this person." She'd go, "Well, I still think you should be kind." (laughs) And it's like, you know what? If there's always room for kindness, if there's any room at all, that's a chance to use it. The last one I use is, uh, tell them who I am without telling them my name. So that's that idea of letting my words inform them of who I am without anything of my identification or my status or-

Mel Robbins 46:28 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 46:28 ... you know, where I am. It's the value of how I make people feel in my words. So how do you apply those values? I'm having a conversation with the opposing attorney. He says something that he's, you know, some of them do. They tell you how great their case is.

Mel Robbins 46:42 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 46:43 I mean, every case they have is full of sunshine, no bruises. So you have that chance to say, "Well, could I just give them a piece of my mind and tell them how bad their case is and how I'm gonna railroad over them? Or is there any room for kindness in this conversation? And if there is any room at all, then I'm gonna use it." That gives me the chance to say, "You know what, Howard? I gotta tell you, you're great at your job and you really care about your clients, I can tell. I can really tell you care about your clients." And he goes, "Oh, yeah, yeah, I, uh, you know, I do. I really do, and I feel great about that." And all of a sudden, he goes, "You know what? In that room, loving you wanted, that's, I think we can agree to that. That's no problem." If I can inject my values, I don't have to worry about what to say. I don't have to worry about some zinger I have to s- to, to send. If there's room for kindness, I'll use it. So you find ways to use values to control the conversation.

Mel Robbins 47:28 Well, you never regret not being kind.

Jefferson Fisher 47:31 It's d- that's a great one, yeah.

Mel Robbins 47:33 And I always regret when I'm not.

Jefferson Fisher 47:35 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 47:36 And so one of the huge takeaways that I have is that a lot of us don't stop and think about what the intention is of a conversation and how we wanna be perceived and what we want to demonstrate about ourselves by being in it. And it's everywhere, from-

Jefferson Fisher 47:59 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 47:59 ... how you walk into a meeting. If you think about what you wanna get out of it or how you wanna be perceived, then that actually dictates how you're gonna show up. It's like-

Jefferson Fisher 48:08 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 48:08 ... you can use this in absolutely any area of your life. And I think most of us are just sort of going through the day and surviving. And there's a completely different way to think about the way that you communicate.

Jefferson Fisher 48:24 I 100% agree in that, if you look at where you are in life, from your romantic relationships to where you are at work, there is a large percentage of that that is solely based upon what you said to that person. That just meant there are thoughts that came from your brain that, to your mouth...... that you spoke out loud that have influenced where you are. You said something to that person and they liked it, and now they want to date you. And they said something you liked, and there it is, that you- you met over coffee at, you know, the airport, or where you are at work, or that promotion that you want. You have ways of just simply using the power of your words to influence everything. And it can change. Even if you said things in the past that you regret, or things you wish you would have said better, you can change everything about your life by what you say next.

Mel Robbins 49:18 Are there a couple steps that somebody could take to just walk themselves through the kind of person that they want to be through their words? Because I feel like there's this step, Jefferson, that we don't really take with intention of getting clear that I want to be this kind of person. And it's one thing to kind of use kind words. It's a whole nother thing to have a reckoning with yourself where you say, "This is an area of my life that I want to take control of, and I can take control of it." Are there particular questions that somebody could ask themselves that help them get to what their values might be, in terms of how they want to change the way they communicate, what they want the world to think about them? Like I often think, when I go into a meeting, "What do I want people to say when I leave?" And it's a trick that I learned when I was a public defender working for legal aid, which is, "What do I want the jury to say the second that they get out of this courtroom and they get into that meeting with one another? What do I want them to say?" And I use that now before I go into a meeting. What do I want them to think about me?

Jefferson Fisher 50:41 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 50:41 And then I align the way that I show up based on the impact that I want to create in that room.

Jefferson Fisher 50:48 I love that. I do, um, very similar, that's the, what energy am I bringing to the room? If everybody's at a table and you walk in, and you're s- coming in, what do you want the feeling to be? "Oh, this person's here." What's that energy that you're bringing? Because every one of us has a different energy that affects the room that they're in. Is it, "Oh, no, somebody's here," or, "Oh, great, somebody's here"? Or is it the, "Oh, man, somebody's here." Everyone's a little bit different. The biggest tool that somebody can use is to ask the question to themselves and also to the person that loves them the most, more than anybody, is, "Who do my words say that I am? Who do my words say that I am?" And that is a great question to ask yourself, or you ask somebody else, "Who do my words say that I am?" Because often what you say isn't- doesn't match exactly with who you want to be. I would encourage somebody to ask, uh, a friend, a spouse, or, "What- the way that I speak, what kind of energy does that give? Does that give anxiety? Do I rush my words? Do I speak too-"

Mel Robbins 51:52 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 51:52 "... fast? Do I speak too slow?" H- how do you want to tweak the room to understand how you want to communicate with that next person? So, I would encourage, in terms of action steps, it's the question that you need to answer of yourself of, uh, who do you want to be with your words, and then what words are you going to use? I think what you have to say is awesome, of think long-term of just kind of call your shot. "I want to leave that room feeling like I am somebody who's confident."

Mel Robbins 52:19 Right. I- I think it's such an important point, because you do have so much power over your reputation.

Jefferson Fisher 52:26 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 52:27 You do have power over the impact that you make with other people. And taking a beat before you walk in the room, or you walk in the meeting, or you walk into the party, or you walk up to the sidelines at your kid's soccer game-

Jefferson Fisher 52:40 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 52:40 ... to really remind yourself, "What kind of person do I want to be? And now let me align what I say and the energy that I bring to represent that."

Jefferson Fisher 52:49 That's the crazy part about it. It's also the most simple part about it, and that is, it is simply within your control. When you walk away from an interaction from somebody and you go, "I really liked that person," what was it? What was it that you liked? "Uh, they said something nice about me. They, uh, they smiled. They didn't criticize other people." It is all has to do with your communication. Their experience of you is going to be almost entirely the words that you use right in front of them.

Mel Robbins 53:20 And how they made that person feel.

Jefferson Fisher 53:21 How you made that person feel right then and there.

Mel Robbins 53:25 Love this. What are your best tips to be more effective at communicating at work?

Jefferson Fisher 53:34 Tip number one would be, have something to learn, not something to prove. So anytime you're in an argument, and it's not just work, really anything, when you're in a conversation with somebody, have something to learn from them rather than something to prove. Even if you want to prove yourself, "I want to prove who I am," that doesn't come from you pushing your own agenda. It comes from you being curious about other people.

Mel Robbins 53:59 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 54:00 And so, if you want to be known as somebody who's respectful in the workplace, or somebody who's kind, you use kind words. If you want to be known as somebody who's respectful, you use respectful words. So it- that means if you talk about somebody and gossip and do something negative, that's what people are going to associate you with, because it goes even wider than that. Then if other people associate with you, that bad person, well then you- people are gonna think differently about them. So it's these circles of communication of what you said, "Oh, well, you're friends with so-and-so, you're friends with so-and-so," that are going to influence that. If you want to be more respected at work, use words that show more authority. You can use words like direction. "I like to set the direction of this conversation. I don't like the direction of where this is going." All of a sudden, it sounds like you're captain of the ship.

Mel Robbins 54:46 (laughs) Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 54:47 So you're just using the word direction. So you find ways that can influence who you want to be for good.

Mel Robbins 54:54 What's one change somebody can make starting today

Mel Robbins 54:57 to communicate more effectively with their family?

Jefferson Fisher 55:02 When you need to have this hard conversation, at all times, show them that you love them, that you care. And you do that with the words, meaning you tell them that. "I'm telling you this because I love you." Often, I know people, and you know people, that they had really hard childhoods, and they just never heard that from a parent-

Mel Robbins 55:18 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 55:18 ... that "I'm proud of you," that "I love you." So you find ways to inject that into the conversation. "I'm talking to you right now 'cause I want us to learn from this conversation." Or, "I'm learning too." When you're having that, you need to deescalate an argument with a spouse or a kid, "Hey, I'm learning too." This is my first time to be a parent, this is your first time to be a kid. "I'm learning too." Don't be afraid to apologize. Don't be afraid to own that. I think from a position of strength, you can really, really own that apology when you need to.

Mel Robbins 55:50 I am stealing that. I often say, "I'm doing the best I can," but I like "I'm learning too."

Jefferson Fisher 55:55 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 55:56 That's a beautiful thing.

Jefferson Fisher 55:58 It's good for spouses too.

Mel Robbins 55:59 (laughs)

Jefferson Fisher 55:59 You know, I mean, you can be dating forever, but as soon as you get married and live together, I mean, it's, it's a whole new world.

Mel Robbins 56:04 It is. I once, I just recently heard somebody say that, uh, second marriages are amazing, particularly if it's with the same person.

Jefferson Fisher 56:13 (laughs) I bet.

Mel Robbins 56:13 And this idea that any moment, you can change a relationship because you can change yourself-

Jefferson Fisher 56:19 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 56:19 ... and how you communicate.

Jefferson Fisher 56:21 And that's the only thing you can control. You know, I can't control the other person. You can only control how you respond to it.

Mel Robbins 56:27 I am gonna steal everything that you just taught me. And I'm so excited that you get to listen and be here and learn from Jefferson too. We're gonna be leaving here going direction, kindness-

Jefferson Fisher 56:38 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 56:38 ... and I gotta tell you this. What are your parting words?

Jefferson Fisher 56:43 To anybody who's listening, my parting words to you are this. You have a power that you haven't tapped into yet, and that is just the power of your words. If you wanna be seen as somebody who's strong, you use stronger words. You wanna s- be somebody who is seen to be more decisive, somebody who stands up for themselves, it is not a course you have to take, it is not a book you have to read, it is simply how you need to change the next word that comes out of your mouth. It is something that can be learned at any point. It doesn't matter how young you are to how old you are. What you say next has the power to change anything. And if you use it for good and you use it for light, you're always gonna go right.

Mel Robbins 57:27 Oh my god, Jefferson.

Jefferson Fisher 57:28 I didn't mean for that to rhyme, but...

Mel Robbins 57:30 I love, I, like, love you. I, I, I know that sounds, like, creepy, but-

Jefferson Fisher 57:34 No, I love you too.

Mel Robbins 57:34 ... you are a huge light.

Jefferson Fisher 57:35 Thank you.

Mel Robbins 57:36 Thank you. And my parting words to you, I hope you take absolutely everything that Jefferson just shared with us and you use it. You use it to create better relationships, to speak with authority, to have your words reflect the kind of person that you really want to be. And in case no one else tells you this, I wanted to be sure to tell you, I love you and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And as Jefferson just taught you, it's all in the power of your words. You get to say. How cool is that? I'll see you in the next episode. And I wanna thank you for being here on YouTube and making it all the way to the end of this incredible episode. And if you made it this far, do me a favor, please click here. I know that you're the kinda person that wants to support people that wanna help you, so that's one way that you could do it. Just click Subscribe. We good? Awesome. Because it's the one way that I know that you're actually enjoying the content that we're creating for you. And if you loved watching this episode with Jefferson Fisher on how you can communicate better, you're really gonna love this next episode. This one is with Vanessa Van Edwards, and you're gonna learn all about body language and how you can use it to be more confident. I cannot wait to see you there.