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Conquer Overwhelm: Your Ultimate Guide to Inner Peace [ENCORE] | The Mel Robbins Podcast

Order your copy of The Let Them Theory 👉 https://melrob.co/let-them-theory 👈 The #1 Best Selling Book of 2025 🔥 Discover how much power you truly have. It all begins with two simple words. Let Them. — In this episode, Dr. Thema Bryant gives you the tools to conquer overwhelm and unlock your inner peace. Dr. Thema Bryant is the current president of the American Psychological Association. She trained at both Duke and Harvard, teaches at Pepperdine University, has published multiple best-selling books, and has spent decades of her life researching how you can stay calm and centered in any situation. She calls this kind of peace “coming home” to yourself, and she will teach you how to do it, even if the world around you is in chaos. Dr. Thema is simply incredible. Just her presence alone will put you at ease. She has the unique gift of weaving together psychological strategies for healing with the deeper spiritual cornerstones of faith and trust. This is an encore episode with new insights from me at the top of the conversation. Given how overwhelming the world seems right now, I believe this profound and actionable conversation is exactly what you and I need to hear. With Dr. Thema's wisdom and tools, you can and will overcome the overwhelm, anxiety, and stress you are feeling right now. In this episode, you’ll learn: - 3 ways to combat overwhelm and external stress - 6 signs that you are disconnected from yourself - What it means to be "psychologically wandering" - How to handle people in your life who are chronically irritable and angry - The surprising signs of "irritable depression" - The 3 words to say to yourself before you can begin healing - Why self-care is critical if you are in a toxic workplace - Why you need to stop talking about your partner and your boss in therapy - Where to find therapy when you can’t afford it When the world feels dark, you and I must stay connected to our inner light. This episode will teach you how. Please share this with your loved ones because the world needs all of us to keep the light bright, and together we will. Xo Mel In this episode: 00:00 Intro 03:01 I got really emotional when I acknowledged how my life used to be. 07:07 The 6 signs that you’re disconnected from yourself and what that means. 08:18 Even if you’ve never felt it; you can learn to be “home” with yourself. 13:14 This is the first and most powerful step to your “homecoming.” 19:07 Do people with a bad attitude actually have depression? 26:20 How do we handle people who are irritable, frustrated, and angry? 27:58 It’s a big mistake if you wait for this before you start your own healing. 31:38 What does self-care actually mean? 36:33 Watching bedtime, high-crime TV? Then you need to hear this. 39:10 What is the definition of spirituality? 42:25 How do you heal from a lifetime of messaging that you’re not worthy? 44:00 This is how you handle being in a toxic work environment. 47:30 You are more than an employee or a partner. 49:32 Look to these resources if you can’t afford therapy. — Follow Mel: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melrobbins/ TikTok: http://tiktok.com/@melrobbins Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melrobbins LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melrobbins Website: http://melrobbins.com​ — Sign up for Mel’s newsletter: https://melrob.co/sign-up-newsletter A note from Mel to you, twice a week, sharing simple, practical ways to build the life you want. — Subscribe to Mel’s channel here: https://www.youtube.com/melrobbins​?sub_confirmation=1 — Listen to The Mel Robbins Podcast 🎧 New episodes drop every Monday & Thursday! https://melrob.co/spotify https://melrob.co/applepodcasts https://melrob.co/amazonmusic — Looking for Mel’s books on Amazon? Find them here: The Let Them Theory: https://amzn.to/3IQ21Oe The Let Them Theory Audiobook: https://amzn.to/413SObp The High 5 Habit: https://amzn.to/3fMvfPQ The 5 Second Rule: https://amzn.to/4l54fah

Mel RobbinshostDr. Thema Bryantguest
Oct 12, 20231h 1mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 3:01

    Intro

    1. MR

      (ticking clock) (upbeat music) There's a lot going on right now, and so I've made the decision to switch up our programming this week. Our show is syndicated in 194 countries and right now, there is a lot of conflict going on in regions around the world. And there has never been a better time to provide tools that will help you tap back into the power, and light, and love, and connection inside of you. And Dr. Thema is the person who can teach you how to do it. Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. There's a lot going on right now, and so I've made the decision to switch up our programming this week and re-run an episode that we did back in May that was called Six Signs You're Disconnected From Your Power and How to Get It Back: Life-Changing Advice from the Remarkable Dr. Thema Bryant. Now, that episode was extraordinary. It's been one of our most shared episodes since launching the Mel Robbins podcast, and in it, Dr. Thema Bryant, who is literally a walking treasure of a human being, she is discussing in this episode the process of Homecoming, which is how you overcome fear and trauma to reclaim your whole authentic self. Her book, Homecoming, which is now out in paperback, is a must-read. And as far as I'm concerned, this conversation with Dr. Thema was one of the most important conversations we've had in the first year of the Mel Robbins podcast. The reason why I'm replaying it right now is because I think you need to hear it. There are so many tools that will help you tap back into the power, and light, and love, and connection inside of you, and I decided to re-release this episode because I think the world really would benefit from listening to this. Our show is syndicated in 194 countries and right now, there is a lot of conflict going on in regions around the world. And there has never been a better time to provide tools, and hope, and small ways that you as an individual can empower yourself, and live in the truth, and also stay connected to light, and to love, and to connection. And Dr. Thema is the person who can teach you how to do it. She's a psychologist, a minister, a tenured professor at Pepperdine University. She's a New York Times best-selling author. In 2023, she was named the very first Black female president of the American Psychological Association. She completed her doctorate in clinical psychology at Duke University, and her post-doctoral training at Harvard Medical School's Victims of Violence Program. She says that no matter what's going on around you, you can always come back home to yourself, and that's what we're gonna talk about today.

  2. 3:01 – 7:07

    I got really emotional when I acknowledged how my life used to be.

    1. MR

      The six signs that you're disconnected from yourself, and most importantly, how you can start to reconnect. I hope you love this conversation as much as I did. I just re-listened to it, and I know it's exactly what you need right now. Dr. Thema Bryant's brand-new book, Homecoming: Overcome Fear and Trauma to Reclaim Your Whole Authentic Self.

    2. TB

      Yeah.

    3. MR

      It is a must-read.

    4. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. MR

      Dr. Thema, I am so thrilled that you are here.

    6. TB

      I am thrilled to be here. I love you, I love your work, and, uh, I love getting the word out about the journey home because we need it.

    7. MR

      Oh, do we ever. You know, I was, I'm, I'm pretty emotional today-

    8. TB

      Yeah.

    9. MR

      ... because I'm here in Los Angeles because our, uh, one of our daughters is graduating from college-

    10. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. MR

      ... in a couple days, and I am going, after our interview, to hear her do her final senior performance.

    12. TB

      Ah, beautiful.

    13. MR

      And it's a full-circle moment 'cause I'm going to the theater where she got her invitation to audition-

    14. TB

      Wow.

    15. MR

      ... to even be admitted into the program.

    16. TB

      Wow.

    17. MR

      And I've been calling it a full-circle moment.

    18. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    19. MR

      But what I realize is, it's a homecoming.

    20. TB

      It is.

    21. MR

      And I guess-

    22. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    23. MR

      ... that's where I wanna start-

    24. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    25. MR

      ... because it makes me emotional to think about this because I lived for so long feeling what you would call psychologically homeless.

    26. TB

      Yes.

    27. MR

      Disconnected from my true self.

    28. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    29. MR

      And the feeling that you have when you finally feel whole, it is unlike anything I've ever experienced.

    30. TB

      Yes, and I appreciate the honesty and the transparency because we do get disconnected. You know, life disconnects us, and, you know, if you don't mind saying how could you tell you were disconnected or what was it like when you were psychologically wandering?

  3. 7:07 – 8:18

    The 6 signs that you’re disconnected from yourself and what that means.

    1. TB

      what I like to say, and I think I say it in the book is, can we get to the place where we can admit, "I miss myself"?

    2. MR

      Wow. Okay. I just wanna make sure-

    3. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    4. MR

      ... that you listening to us just got what Dr. Thema just said to you, "I miss myself."

    5. TB

      Yeah. Yeah.

    6. MR

      How does somebody who feels like they don't even know who they are-

    7. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    8. MR

      Like, you hear that a lot, "I don't even know who I am anymore."

    9. TB

      Yes. Yeah. So I like to say even if you feel like you were never at home with yourself, you can still come home to yourself. And that is a reality for a lot of people who grew up with stress and trauma-

    10. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    11. TB

      ... who perhaps were born into families where there was a lot of stress and trauma, so you learned early to be in survival mode, or you learned to play small, or you learned to people please. And so, you never got to what I like to call unfold, right? You never got to connect with the truth of who you are. And so, even if you have never met you, you can come home

  4. 8:18 – 13:14

    Even if you’ve never felt it; you can learn to be “home” with yourself.

    1. TB

      to you, and that's kind of the good news of this process.

    2. MR

      Wow. There's a West African, uh, fable-

    3. TB

      Yeah.

    4. MR

      ... that you tell at the very beginning of the book-

    5. TB

      Yes.

    6. MR

      ... that I think will give us a visual-

    7. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    8. MR

      ... and a story to lock onto that we can keep coming back to-

    9. TB

      Yes.

    10. MR

      ... to help keep people in the conversation.

    11. TB

      Yes.

    12. MR

      So would you mind telling us that-

    13. TB

      Oh, I'll- I-

    14. MR

      Like, what is it? Is it a fable?

    15. TB

      Yes.

    16. MR

      What do you-

    17. TB

      Yeah, you can say it's a, a fable. I, um, I lived in Liberia, West Africa for high school, so I'm gonna do it in my version of Liberian English, but any Liberians who are listening will tell you-

    18. MR

      (laughs)

    19. TB

      ... "Ah, that's not the for true." (laughs)

    20. MR

      (laughs)

    21. TB

      Uh, so, um, once upon a time, once upon a time in West Africa, there was one animal expert, and this animal expert knew every animal that was in the bush. You people say forest, but the real word is bush. If he see giraffe, he know the thing giraffe. If he see lion, he know the thing lion. So this animal expert is walking one day, so, so, so, and he goes behind one farm. And he's passing the farm, and behind the farm, he see so, so, so chickens. In the middle of the chickens is one eagle. Eh, mm. He said, "What a eagle doing with these chickens?" He go to the front of farm and he say, "Bop, bop." You people say, "Knock, knock."

    22. MR

      (laughs)

    23. TB

      The real sound, that's bop, bop. He say, "Bop, bop." The man inside say, "Who that?" The man outside say, "That me. You might open the door and see." So he opens the door. He say, "What are your business here?" He say, "In the back of your farm, you got so, so, so chickens. But in the middle is one eagle." The farmer laugh. He said, "No, I only have chicken." The animal expert said, "I'll show you." They go to the back of the farm. He picks up the one he's calling a eagle. He puts it on his arm. He says, "Listen to me, you not chicken. Chickens can't fly. You can fly. Go ahead and fly." The eagle listened to him, but then he looked down at his chicken brothers and sisters eating their chicken food. He jumped down off the man's arm and he go back with the chickens. The farmer starts laughing at the animal expert. The animal expert is vexed, eh. He said, "I coming to go." He storm away. The next day, he come back. He come so soon in the morning, God himself was not awake yet, eh. He come and say what? "Bop, bop." The man inside say, "Who that?" The man outside say, "That me. Open the door and see." He opens the door. He takes him in. He says, "What are you doing here?" He said, "I came here because you have one eagle." This time he took the eagle and he climbed to the roof of the barn. They get to the top of the barn and at that moment, the sun started to rise. Eh. The animal expert says to the eagle, "All your life people told you you were a chicken. They told you talk like chicken, act like chicken, walk like chicken, but you're not a chicken. You're an eagle." Mm. The eagle said to himself, "I think if I don't try this thing, this man will come every day bothering me."

    24. MR

      (laughs)

    25. TB

      "Maybe today I will try it." So he spread his wings and he started to fly, and I tell you, my eyes could never see him again. And that's the whole reason why you and I are here today, because there are those who are listening who have been treated like chickens, dating like chickens, picking jobs like chickens, but you're not a chicken. You're an eagle, so fly.

    26. MR

      Oh. I just gotta do that right now.

    27. TB

      (laughs)

    28. MR

      Oh my gosh.

    29. TB

      Oh.

    30. MR

      That- that is why this book is required reading-

  5. 13:14 – 19:07

    This is the first and most powerful step to your “homecoming.”

    1. TB

      such a gift being able to get this out to people because so many of us are hungry for more. Like you have the sense, this can't be it.

    2. MR

      Mm.

    3. TB

      Right? Like this-

    4. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    5. TB

      This just can't be it, right? In whatever area of my life. And so, uh, to know that healing is work, but we're worth it.

    6. MR

      Mm.

    7. TB

      Right?

    8. MR

      Yeah.

    9. TB

      And when we are not at home, we're paying a cost anyway. How much has it cost me to live some other woman's life? Ah, I don't wanna pay it anymore.

    10. MR

      Yeah.

    11. TB

      Yeah. Yeah.

    12. MR

      It costs you your life.

    13. TB

      Right. It costs you your life, absolutely.

    14. MR

      So let's walk through the process of Homecoming.

    15. TB

      Okay. Yes.

    16. MR

      I'm an eagle in disguise-

    17. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    18. MR

      ... as a chicken.

    19. TB

      Right.

    20. MR

      I come in.

    21. TB

      Yeah.

    22. MR

      And I wanna begin this journey.

    23. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    24. MR

      And I have the honor of sitting down across from you-

    25. TB

      Yeah.

    26. MR

      ... Dr. Thema.

    27. TB

      Yes.

    28. MR

      But I don't know I'm an Eagle.

    29. TB

      Right.

    30. MR

      When every, when any patient comes in and sits down-

  6. 19:07 – 26:20

    Do people with a bad attitude actually have depression?

    1. TB

      say had a, had a bad attitude, right?

    2. MR

      Hmm.

    3. TB

      But I know attitude is despair. But, uh-

    4. MR

      Hold on a second.

    5. TB

      Uh-huh.

    6. MR

      Attitude is despair?

    7. TB

      Yeah. So a form of depression people often don't recognize is irritable depression, right? Yeah.

    8. MR

      Wow.

    9. TB

      And, and people don't respond to compassion, with compassion, to women with a, quote unquote, "bad attitude." But if we said, "When I see that woman, she's in despair," maybe then I would respond with compassion.

    10. MR

      Hmm.

    11. TB

      But some of us, by family, by culture, by religion were taught that sadness is weakness, so we mask our sadness with anger, with bitterness, with attitude, right? But underneath it is the despair.

    12. MR

      So true.

    13. TB

      Yeah.

    14. MR

      It's like an iceberg, you see the anger on the top-

    15. TB

      Uh-huh.

    16. MR

      ... but there's something so much deeper going on.

    17. TB

      So much deeper underneath.

    18. MR

      Wow.

    19. TB

      Yeah.

    20. MR

      So you could pick up on the attitude and the energy-

    21. TB

      Mm-hmm. But I know there's the story there.

    22. MR

      Yeah.

    23. TB

      Right? Especially because, well, you know you haven't done anything, right? (laughs)

    24. MR

      Hmm.

    25. TB

      So I am r- I am on, feeling on the receiving end of your upset, and I haven't done anything, so then I know there's a story.

    26. MR

      Yeah.

    27. TB

      So, you know, when it gets to be her place, uh, she's next in the line, and she says to me, with the attitude, um, "So you're a survivor?" And I said, "Look, I just gave a whole keynote on it," right?

    28. MR

      (laughs)

    29. TB

      I say, "Yes," and she says, "Well, you don't look like any survivor I've ever known." So the doubting can be triggering as we think about not being believed-

    30. MR

      Hmm.

  7. 26:20 – 27:58

    How do we handle people who are irritable, frustrated, and angry?

    1. MR

    2. TB

      Yeah. So, I like to say, "The reason you feel unsettled is because you're not supposed to settle."

    3. MR

      Say that again.

    4. TB

      "The reason you feel unsettled is because you're not supposed to settle. So what area of your life are you settling?"

    5. MR

      And I would imagine that any area where you feel unsettled.

    6. TB

      Mm-hmm. Right. (laughs)

    7. MR

      (laughs)

    8. TB

      There it is.

    9. MR

      It's there. You're- There it is.

    10. TB

      There it is. So, you know, what happens is often we are focused so much, uh, outwardly, if only. If only my spouse would do this, if only my kids would do this, if only my supervisor would do this. Um, and in this moment, we don't have the capacity to shift them. So how might you want to shift? Right?

    11. MR

      That's a big ask.

    12. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    13. MR

      'Cause it's easier to try to order everybody else-

    14. TB

      Oh, yes.

    15. MR

      ... around you in life.

    16. TB

      And frustrating and-

    17. MR

      Yes.

    18. TB

      ... annoying and-

    19. MR

      Yes.

    20. TB

      ... and draining. But it also, uh, lets me off the hook because I can keep waiting for their homecoming, right? I can come home to (laughs) myself when they come home to themselves. Well, everybody is on their own timing. And what I like to remind myself is I don't want to be... I don't wanna keep my healing hostage, waiting for the healing of those who harmed me.

    21. MR

      Oh. Wow.

    22. TB

      Mm-hmm. And that's what we're doing when we're like waiting for the apology.

    23. MR

      Yeah.

    24. TB

      It's like, "I can't heal 'til

  8. 27:58 – 31:38

    It’s a big mistake if you wait for this before you start your own healing.

    1. TB

      you see what you did to me."

    2. MR

      Yes.

    3. TB

      Like, that could be years.

    4. MR

      It might be your whole lifetime.

    5. TB

      It may be your whole life, right? They have gone on with their lives, they don't care, they're not thinking about it. And so I wanna take my healing out of their hands.

    6. MR

      Mm. And give it back to yourself.

    7. TB

      Yeah.

    8. MR

      And so the process of coming home and the homecoming is the act of self-healing.

    9. TB

      Yes. Yes.

    10. MR

      It's about joining back in with yourself.

    11. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    12. MR

      You know, because we have such a huge international audience and therapy can be very expensive-

    13. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    14. MR

      ... I would love for you to, um, read these six questions that you often ask patients-

    15. TB

      Yeah.

    16. MR

      ... that can be a sign of what you call psychological homelessness.

    17. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    18. MR

      And so, I would also love for you, Dr. Thema, to talk about what is psychological homelessness?

    19. TB

      Yeah.

    20. MR

      I've never heard that phrase before-

    21. TB

      Yeah.

    22. MR

      ... but it makes so much sense.

    23. TB

      Mm-hmm. So, uh, psychological homelessness is this sense of wandering, being ungrounded, unrooted, confused. And we can spend years saying, "I don't know, I'm not sure." And even when I'm waiting for other people to give me the answer, then they're my compass, but I need a compass.

    24. MR

      Hmm.

    25. TB

      'Cause that's what we talk about with therapy, is at some point people need to internalize it. So it's not just every week people coming and saying, "So Thema, what do you think?"

    26. MR

      Yeah.

    27. TB

      Right? They have to get to the point where, "I was having this conversation with my sister and I realized I was doing this and so I sh-" Well, there it is. Right now you have become your compass, right? So here are the questions. Does the state of your life internally or externally fall short of what you imagined? Did you attain what you thought you wanted, only to discover that you still feel empty and unfulfilled? Do you have a sense of powerlessness or hopelessness? Do you lack the energy or motivation to pursue the things that used to matter to you? Do you feel there are no words to capture the ache in your heart?

    28. MR

      Mm.

    29. TB

      Do you find yourself crying often or does it seem impossible to cry?

    30. MR

      If somebody resonates-

  9. 31:38 – 36:33

    What does self-care actually mean?

    1. TB

      uh, we neglect ourselves and we erase ourselves and that, those can have cultural messages and gender messages and religious messages where people will say, "Self-care is selfish."

    2. MR

      Right.

    3. TB

      You know? And so to say, uh, to myself, "I am not just a tool for other people's nourishing. I am not just a pathway for other people to get goodness in life, that I too am a living soul that is deserving of the goodness that I want other people to experience." And so, it is a sacred act to begin to care for ourselves, and the catch is, when we talk about behavioral psychology, with behavioral psychology, you start to do the action even if you don't feel it yet.

    4. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    5. TB

      Right?

    6. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    7. TB

      So if I say, like, "I'm gonna wait 'til I have high self-esteem and then take good care of myself," like, it's not gonna work.

    8. MR

      Right.

    9. TB

      So, I have to start doing it even when I don't feel it.

    10. MR

      Yes.

    11. TB

      Right?

    12. MR

      Yes. What do you... Like, I keep, the word that keeps coming to mind is purpose. So you hear a lot of people say, "I don't know what my purpose is. I, I, I need to find a purpose." Is that a code word for, "I am disconnected from myself"?

    13. TB

      That is definitely a code word, and the name came back to me of the life coach I quoted (laughs) . So I just wanna give-

    14. MR

      Sure.

    15. TB

      ... Shannon Evette-

    16. MR

      Okay. Great.

    17. TB

      ... is the one who, who gave the quote I said earlier. But, uh, when people don't have a sense of their purpose, uh, that's, uh, an indication of disconnection. I also want to say, when we are in unhealthy relationships and on toxic jobs, in order to survive those, you have to disconnect.

    18. MR

      Hmm.

    19. TB

      It's impossible to be at home with yourself and stay in relationship with someone who is dishonoring you perpetually.

    20. MR

      Wow.

    21. TB

      Yeah.

    22. MR

      So for somebody that just had, like, pow!

    23. TB

      Yes.

    24. MR

      A wake-up call.

    25. TB

      Mm-hmm. Then you can have compassion for yourself because people will judge you and say, like, "Why'd you stay so long?"

    26. MR

      Right.

    27. TB

      But you weren't connected to you. You had been disconnected from yourself, so you don't even feel the capacity to dream again, to imagine, to believe that better is possible for you and that you are deserving of it and worthy of it.

    28. MR

      I s-... We see this both in relationships and jobs all the time.

    29. TB

      All the time.

    30. MR

      In fact, you have a whole chapter-

  10. 36:33 – 39:10

    Watching bedtime, high-crime TV? Then you need to hear this.

    1. TB

      idea of relaxing before you go to sleep is watching three episodes of Law & Order, I would encourage you to think about, why is trauma relaxing to me?

    2. MR

      Oh.

    3. TB

      That's what it is. I mean, it's h- harm, crime, violation, attacks, and that's what is gonna soothe me into my bedtime.

    4. MR

      So what is the answer-

    5. TB

      Yeah.

    6. MR

      ... that a lot of people give you when they do go into therapy about that connection?

    7. TB

      Is that it's normal and familiar. Some of us grew up in high stress, so we think calmness is either fake or boring.

    8. MR

      Wow.

    9. TB

      Right? People mistake peace for boring. (laughs) And it's like, to come home to yourself, you have to lean into the discomfort 'cause it's, because it's gonna feel unfamiliar. I was working with a client, uh, an adult woman and her mom, and they had been disconnected, um, because the mother dealt with addiction and didn't raise her, but they are reconnected now and living together, and the adult daughter really wanted her mom to say she loves her. And the mother, uh, just said, uh, to me, "That just seems fake." So she had not grown up with that, had not heard it. To her it's like something people do on TV. And so I said to her, "If you mean it, it's not fake. It just feels like it 'cause you're not used to saying it."

    10. MR

      Mm. It is amazing how many people-

    11. TB

      Right.

    12. MR

      ... don't tell the people that they love-

    13. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    14. MR

      ... that they don't... that they love them.

    15. TB

      Right.

    16. MR

      And I... Hadn't occurred to me it's because they never were told that themselves.

    17. TB

      Yeah.

    18. MR

      And that it might feel forced-

    19. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    20. MR

      ... or not authentic.

    21. TB

      Yes.

    22. MR

      Whoa.

    23. TB

      Yeah. And that's the importance of us learning the... each other's love languages, because, you know, her response was the response of probably many of her generation, which was you had food on the table, or you have a roof over your head.

    24. MR

      Yes. Yes, what more do you want from me?

    25. TB

      Right. What more?

    26. MR

      What more? Um, I love also that Homecoming is not only therapy.

    27. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    28. MR

      That there is a deeply spiritual aspect to this.

    29. TB

      Yes.

    30. MR

      So what is

  11. 39:10 – 42:25

    What is the definition of spirituality?

    1. MR

      sort of the... How would you describe the difference between therapy-

    2. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. MR

      ... and spirituality-

    4. TB

      Yeah.

    5. MR

      ... and the work that you need to do in both areas?

    6. TB

      That's right. So unfortunately, many people who are in the mental health field did not get trained to incorporate spirituality.

    7. MR

      Mm.

    8. TB

      And so, uh, there's research that shows, on average, mental health professionals endorse a lower level of spirituality or religiosity than the general public.

    9. MR

      Really?

    10. TB

      Yes.

    11. MR

      Why do you think that is?

    12. TB

      Well, I think, uh, a part of that can go with, uh, higher levels of education.

    13. MR

      Huh.

    14. TB

      That a lot of times, uh, people can disconnect a- as with education can feel like they need to prove everything.

    15. MR

      Mm.

    16. TB

      And spirituality is beyond our proving or our being able to, um, to, to manipulate it, right? So it's like, it's, it's not concrete.

    17. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    18. TB

      Right? And so that's w- In the field of psychology, the actual, you know, the founders in the field were often people of faith, but then there was this move in the field where we wanted to prove we're a science.

    19. MR

      Mm.

    20. TB

      So we, we're not... If we wanna prove that we're a science, then we can't talk about anything people find spooky or soft or- (laughs) ... you know, in some other realm. And so, uh, then there has been a neglect from it, from that area, and then I think the other part of it has been, um, the recognition that some people have been harmed in spiritual spaces.

    21. MR

      Mm.

    22. TB

      So then some therapists will over-generalize and think that it is all harmful, as opposed to whenever you get people together, you're gonna have some good and some bad, some things that are healthy or unhealthy.

    23. MR

      What is your definition of spirituality?

    24. TB

      It is an awareness of the sacred beyond what we can see.

    25. MR

      Ooh, I love that definition.

    26. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    27. MR

      And now that we're on this topic-

    28. TB

      Yeah.

    29. MR

      ... it occurs to me, how could you possibly heal-

    30. TB

      Mm-hmm.

  12. 42:25 – 44:00

    How do you heal from a lifetime of messaging that you’re not worthy?

    1. MR

      as you say, re-parent yourself-

    2. TB

      Yeah.

    3. MR

      ... in the physical space?

    4. TB

      That's right. So a part of it is what gives us the motivation to do the work, because a lot of times we're operating based on evidence, which is what we've seen.

    5. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    6. TB

      So if I've only had bad experiences, my parents abandoned me, this person left me, this person mistreated me, if I believe that is all that exists, then the conclusion would be I am unworthy. Right? That's the only possible, right, conclusion, because, you know, this idea, this, you know, s- victim blaming, self-blaming of if I deserved better, I would have received better.And you will hear people blaming other people for being mistreated. You know, they'll say, "Oh, well, you must have allowed it." And so, uh, in order for me to come to a different conclusion that I am worthy of what I have not yet experienced, I have to have the belief of the more.

    7. MR

      How the heck do you do that?

    8. TB

      Yes.

    9. MR

      When your whole life-

    10. TB

      Yeah.

    11. MR

      ... you have experienced-

    12. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    13. MR

      ... either abuse, or mistreatment, or discrimination-

    14. TB

      Yes.

    15. MR

      ... or violence.

    16. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    17. MR

      How do you, when you have evidence-

    18. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    19. MR

      ... that does make you feel unworthy, because I'm sure you get these DMs and these emails-

    20. TB

      Yes.

    21. MR

      ... all day long, so do we-

    22. TB

      Yeah, yeah.

    23. MR

      ... of people who so want to believe-

    24. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    25. MR

      ... that they are worthy, that something is better, that they can change their life for the better.

    26. TB

      Yeah.

    27. MR

      And you and I can sit where

  13. 44:00 – 47:30

    This is how you handle being in a toxic work environment.

    1. MR

      we are and go, "Of course, you can."

    2. TB

      Right.

    3. MR

      "I have just way... I have so much evidence that it's possible."

    4. TB

      Yeah, yeah.

    5. MR

      "It's both spiritual-"

    6. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. MR

      "... and I could argue the case."

    8. TB

      Yes, yes. (laughs)

    9. MR

      But for somebody-

    10. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. MR

      ... who is sitting in the disbelief-

    12. TB

      Yeah.

    13. MR

      ... how do you cross over-

    14. TB

      Right.

    15. MR

      ... to belief?

    16. TB

      Yeah. So, it's a couple of levels. One of them is to get people to reflect on what do they believe all human beings deserve?

    17. MR

      Well, I believe I'm a chicken.

    18. TB

      Right.

    19. MR

      And all I see are chickens.

    20. TB

      Well-

    21. MR

      And I believe I'm on the gr-

    22. TB

      Yes.

    23. MR

      You know what I'm saying?

    24. TB

      Yes, yes, yes.

    25. MR

      Like we go back to this.

    26. TB

      Yes.

    27. MR

      How do you possibly convince yourself-

    28. TB

      Right.

    29. MR

      ... that you could be an eagle if you've never seen one?

    30. TB

      Yes, yes. So, what we, uh, connect with is disrupting what we call the cognitive distortions. So, it's not just-

  14. 47:30 – 49:32

    You are more than an employee or a partner.

    1. MR

      go back into their life?

    2. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. MR

      Like, you're- let's just say it's a relationship.

    4. TB

      Yeah.

    5. MR

      Where you have somebody that you're dating.

    6. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. MR

      Or in relationship with.

    8. TB

      Yep.

    9. MR

      And there's alcohol or drugs.

    10. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. MR

      You've had the conversation, you've gone around and around and around.

    12. TB

      Yeah.

    13. MR

      And you're the one that's not saying anything.

    14. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    15. MR

      So, you're keeping the peace for them.

    16. TB

      Right.

    17. MR

      How do you handle, like, that sort of disruption in your life-

    18. TB

      Yeah.

    19. MR

      ... now that you're starting to... 'Cause it- it's scary.

    20. TB

      Yes, it is.

    21. MR

      The homecoming process can also be scary-

    22. TB

      Yes.

    23. MR

      ... 'cause you're gonna have to confront things.

    24. TB

      And it's gonna require some losses, and some people are not gonna be happy with the new you. People like the silent you.

    25. MR

      Mm.

    26. TB

      They like the compliant you, they like the doormat you. Who wouldn't like that, right? (laughs)

    27. MR

      (laughs)

    28. TB

      So, when you start getting some opinions and start getting your voice and not wanting to do some of the unhealthy things you've been doing, uh, not everyone is gonna celebrate. And that will be important for you to see, "Who wants me whole and who prefers me broken?" And then I will have to start making some adjustments. And there are a range of ways we can do it. So, like at- in the work chapter, we say there's one path for if I want to stay on this job and how do I restore myself, and there's another path where I need to leave this job. And in relationship with people, whether romantic or otherwise, uh, some I will have to end, and some it will have to be different because I'm different. And, uh, there's- there can be a grieving there.

    29. MR

      Wow. You know, in your new role-

    30. TB

      Mm-hmm.

  15. 49:32 – 1:01:26

    Look to these resources if you can’t afford therapy.

    1. MR

      process of a homecoming for people-

    2. TB

      Yeah.

    3. MR

      ... um, to as many people as possible.

    4. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. MR

      So, why is ther- what is therapy and why is it important?

    6. TB

      Yeah. So, therapy is when you have a trained, licensed facilitator who understands how to journey with you from where you are back home to yourself-

    7. MR

      Mm.

    8. TB

      ... without judgment and with compassion and without needing you to take care of them.

    9. MR

      Oh. That last part-

    10. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. MR

      ... was the big one.

    12. TB

      That's the big one. That's why your friend is not the same thing. Your family member is not the same thing.

    13. MR

      Wow.

    14. TB

      Yeah.

    15. MR

      I had always said objective and licensed-

    16. TB

      Mm-hmm.

    17. MR

      ... but the fact that you just said-

    18. TB

      Yeah.

    19. MR

      ... you don't have to take care of them.

    20. TB

      That's right.

    21. MR

      Wow.

    22. TB

      Yeah. That's the huge part, especially for those of us who have tendencies toward taking care of people, right?

    23. MR

      Yeah.

    24. TB

      So, then in your other relationships, you'll say, "I don't wanna burden people," or, "I know they have a lot going on, so let me just pour into them." Well, this is a space where you don't have to give, you don't have to be on, you don't have to, you don't have to do that, you know? I tell my clients, "I'm good." (laughs)

    25. MR

      (laughs)

    26. TB

      "I have spaces outside of here that are for me, so you don't have to worry. I, I have the capacity to hold it." And, and that's what we need.

    27. MR

      And you also have the tools-

    28. TB

      Yes.

    29. MR

      ... to help us recognize-

    30. TB

      Right.

Episode duration: 1:01:26

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