The Mel Robbins PodcastFrom Chaos to Calm: 5 Easy Steps to Organize Your Life and Home
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,073 words- 0:00 – 13:17
Intro
- MRMel Robbins
(ticking clock) (upbeat music) I gotta start with a confessional because I booked the expert that you're about to meet today, because I need to talk to her. I struggle with this profoundly. I am talking about organization in your home. You may be the person that is super slobby, or you might be the one that is like almost OCD. This is a conversation for all of us. My guest today says, "You and I, we got this topic of organizing completely wrong." (upbeat music) Hey, it's your friend Mel, and today, I'm coming clean on the Mel Robbins Podcast. Today's episode is one of those episodes where I gotta start with a confessional because I booked the expert that you're about to meet today, because I need to talk to her. This is an area where I need coaching. I struggle with this profoundly. What am I talking about? I am talking about organization in your home. Yep, I'm super successful, but when it comes to my mud room, my bathroom, my kitchen, just basically anything in my house, I can't seem to keep it together. I got piles all over the place. I feel like I take hours to organize stuff, and then within a day, it's a disaster again. And you know, if I'm really being honest with you, 90% of the bickering that Chris and I do, it's over the messes that I make, the half-drunk cups of coffee that I leave on the counter, the Kleenexes that I don't quite make to the, the, the, whatever it's called, the trash bin. Like, this is an area where I need help. I feel like a failure, and you may relate to me. You may be the person, uh, that is super slobby or can't seem to stay organized, or you might be the one in your family or relationship that is like almost OCD. You are like a walking Excel spreadsheet. Regardless of which one you are, this is a conversation for all of us, because if you're the kind of person like me whose bathroom counter is covered with stuff, your closet is overflowing, you haven't seen your kitchen counter in days, I know it weighs on you. I know that you don't want people to come over to your house until you've cleaned it up, and it's not about how successful you are. It's about the fact that you just can't keep up with your living space, and it makes you feel like there's something wrong with you. And whether you're the neatnik and you're just so frustrated with your roommates, or family members, or your spouse, like Chris is with me, because you're the one picking up with him and it's driving you crazy, or you're the one that's driving yourself crazy, my guest today says, "You and I, we got this topic of organizing completely wrong." Her hit blog, A Slob Comes Clean, isn't that a great name? And her book, How to Manage Your Home Without Losing Your Mind, uh, this is the expert for me. I would like to know how to manage my stuff without losing my mind. She's got hundreds of thousands of followers that hang on her every bit of advice. You're gonna love her. Please help me welcome Dana White to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Hey, it's Mel, and I wanted to jump into the middle of that podcast episode you were watching to make sure you knew about a free opportunity that I created for you. It's a new three-part training called Take Control with Mel Robbins. It is packed with science. It is packed with action. It's exactly what you need right now. I know that you are tired of feeling like you're in survival mode. You're tired of merely coping, and it is time to tap back into your excellence and power again. Let me coach you. Let me guide you on the steps that you need to take in order to level up and start executing. It's gonna feel so great to start winning again. All you gotta do is click on the link right there in the caption. It's melrobbins.com/takecontrol. It is free. It is for you, and you need to be in it. Now, let's go back to the podcast. All right, well, welcome Dana White. I'm so excited that you're here.
- DWDana K. White
Thanks for having me on. This is fun.
- MRMel Robbins
Really fun. Um, although, I did notice, Dana, that as I was putting on some lipstick to dress up for this, sort of a metaphor for cleaning up your house before you have somebody over, I looked down at my T-shirt, and my cat, my rescue cat, Mr. Noodle, had been sitting on my lap. I am covered in cat hair right now. And so I think that is a fitting way-
- DWDana K. White
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... to open up a conversation about how you can manage your house without losing your mind and how you can actually take control of your life by taking control of clutter. And what I wanted to do was start with how this all happened, that you became a decluttering expert and an expert on helping people take control of this area of your life.
- DWDana K. White
I never would have thought that this is the thing that I would talk about. I would have laughed. My mother still laughs about it a lot. (laughs) Um, I, I wanted to be a writer. I mean, that's what it came down to. I wanted to be a writer, and I figured out what blogs were back in 2009, and, uh, didn't start one because my house was a disaster. So like, I knew my personality. I know that I throw myself into things. I knew this would be something I would throw myself into, and so I put off starting to write because my house was so bad, thinking, "Okay, this is a new motivation. I've been messy my entire life, but this is my new motivation," and yet, I still could not figure it out. So, I came up with a-... kind of a compromise. I thought I was gonna start a practice blog, it was anonymous in the beginning, where I would use that to stay focused, to figure out what's going on in my home, and that, uh, you know, then I would figure out my house, get it perfect, and then write about things I actually felt qualified to write about. The joke's on me 'cause it's now, what, 2023? And I am still writing about this. But also, I, you know, I-I now teach it to other people, but I teach it from the perspective of the person to whom this stuff does not come naturally. So, that's actually my, my superpower in the end, right? Is that I am speaking as someone who legitimately struggles with this. And so I'm sharing what I've figured out. So, that's how I've ended up in this space, but it still surprises me when I really think about it.
- MRMel Robbins
I want to stop right there and unpack that, because I think what you just said is so game-changing. And (clears throat) excuse me, I just got a cat hair in my mouth. (laughs)
- DWDana K. White
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
Holy smokes. And it went so far back in my throat that... You know when, like, something hits your throat and you feel like you have to sneeze?
- DWDana K. White
I have a German shepherd.
- MRMel Robbins
(coughs)
- DWDana K. White
I completely understand, so yes. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
I think what you just said is so profound, and I relate to it, and I bet you listening relate to this. So, I want to just slow it down real quick, because here we are, almost 20 years ago. She has aspirations to be a writer, and what kept her from starting was the clutter in her house. And how many projects have you put off, or dreams have you put on the shelf, because you keep saying to yourself, "Oh, when I get around to, like, clearing out my workspace, or clearing out the garage, or clearing out the back bedroom, or making, uh, my house look the right way, or my room look the right way, then, then I will be able to start this thing that I actually care about"? And so you're in this situation, and I tracked down your very first blog post, and I would love for you to read to everybody the words that you wrote on August 24th, 2009, as you were creating an anonymous blog as a way to hold yourself accountable for writing while you cleaned up your house so you could start writing. I mean, this is fabulous that this is how this started. So, read us a little bit of the parts that I, you know, pointed out to you.
- DWDana K. White
I will. And I just want to to say, I hadn't read this in a very long time, so it was fun to read for me. Uh, "I would be so afraid that if someone saw my house on the wrong day, translated, any day I'm not expecting company, I would feel like a fraud. My house is messy, really messy, and this is the area where I feel like a total failure. I'm constantly frustrated with it, and I know it affects all the other areas of my life, and the lives of each person in my family. Even the things I'm pretty good at could be so much better if it weren't for this problem. I wanted to finally get this thing conquered. I'm not doing a 30-day or even a 365-day plan to a cleaner house. I need to change my routine, my habits, and finally be consistent in this. My hope is that writing daily on this blog will make me keep my focus."
- MRMel Robbins
Wow. You know, Dana, I always say that you're one decision away from a different life, and the decision to just start writing as a practice to keep your feet to the fire on trying to change your behavior around clutter, that launched a whole business for you and an expertise for you. And you've helped people around the world conquer the same thing. And I'm really glad that you're here, because I profoundly struggle with clutter, and I know it might, um, surprise a lot of people that that is the case, but I would love to just unpack for everybody listening, how common is it for people to struggle in this area of their lives?
- DWDana K. White
It's very common. It's also very common for people to not know about it, because what I have found is that many times the people who are struggling with clutter tend to be very successful in other areas of their life.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh.
- DWDana K. White
And so, you just assume they have it together, they're organized. Honestly, one of the most transformative things for me as I started writing, believing... Like, I completely believed I was the only person who struggled the way that I did. I thought that if s- people started to read my blog, they were gonna say, "You're disgusting. Get off the internet. You're a horrible mother." I mean, really, like, that's... Those were the thoughts that went through my mind as I thought about, "I'm showing pictures." I wasn't showing my face, I wasn't using a real name, all that kind of stuff. But because I was anonymous, I was being very honest. But as I shared things and people did start to read my words, they would say, "These are my thoughts. These are my struggles. I see things exactly the same way that you do." Well, this was back in 2009, right? And back then, everybody was on Blogger, and you could, like, click on their name and go find their profile, right, when they left a comment.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana K. White
And so I would see who these people were that were saying, "I relate to what you're saying here." And I saw that they were poets and artists and theater teachers. I was a theater teacher. There are lots of theater teachers who struggle with this kind of stuff. Like, it... There is a direct link between creativity and struggling with clutter. We see the world differently, right? Like, that's... I love that about myself. But as I started to realize there was this link, I realized, "Oh, okay. Okay, so the things that make me me..."... also result in me struggling with clutter. And that helped me accept that, "Okay, this is part of who I am. This is how my brain works." And then I realized the reason I've always felt unsuccessful is that I have been trying to follow the advice of people who like talking about this stuff, right? Like, I've been following people who have been organized their whole life and think it's the most fun thing in the world to talk about. My brain is very different from their brains, and so I was lost on page three. I would look at their before pictures, and I would think, "That would be my dream after-picture."
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- DWDana K. White
Like, I- I didn't, I- I- I, it wasn't computing to me.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- DWDana K. White
Okay? So accepting that this is part of me actually is what gave me the freedom to say, "Okay, that may not work for me, but something is gonna work for me. I just have to figure out what does work for my personality in my home." And then that's when I really started to make a change.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, my God. I'm so excited to talk to you because I feel like the odd person
- 13:17 – 20:20
What my husband thinks about living with a slob. 😂
- MRMel Robbins
out when it comes to my husband, who has a brain like an Excel spreadsheet.
- DWDana K. White
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
The man can methodically just go through his list. He has so much discipline, it looks effortless, and I feel like the Tasmanian devil spinning around next to him, leaving things in my wake. And then we have a daughter who I think must be somewhere on the OCD spectrum because I have never met somebody whose brain is more structured or organized or who gets so, like, rattled when something's out of place. And I feel somehow like I'm inept, like I kept, like, is it, like, 'cause I would love for you to kinda help us understand. When you're a, a creative person or you have skills in areas of your life that don't have that sort of "Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do" organization gene, I resonated when you said, "I'm a failure." I resonated when you said, "I don't want anybody to come to my house 'cause they're gonna see what it looks like here." I feel shame, like there's something wrong with me when my husband or our daughter will walk past my closet and be like, "Oh, my God," you know, my closet. And I feel bad when they kinda jokingly tease me about, "Oh, she left that out. Oh, do this, oh, di-di-da." And so what is it that you might feel or say to yourself if you're somebody that does struggle with clutter because nobody has ever taught you how to get a handle on this if you have a creative brain?
- DWDana K. White
Right. And I just wanna point out something really quickly. Look at what you've done. I, I mean, look at what-
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- DWDana K. White
... you have built.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- DWDana K. White
So, there is such a disconnect there that you have created what you have created that has helped so many people, and yet you feel like, "I'm inept. I..." You know, you, you said the word failure. Like, like this, that is part of the disconnect, right? Because I was like, I am someone who when I see a problem, I tackle it, I figure it out, and I could not do that with my house. Like, I, I just couldn't. And so here, here's the thing. I viewed my house as a project because I am generally very successful with projects.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh.
- DWDana K. White
Like, that is something that I can do very well. Like, you give me a, a large-scale production, you know, I was a theater arts teacher, I will have that thing so organized, people will be amazed, right? Like, I mean, like, uh, you will know exactly when you're supposed to be at rehearsal, exactly what we're gonna be doing in that rehearsal. I mean, like, everything is planned out ahead of time. I love to do the planning phase. I love the execution of my plan. I love the applause at the end of all of that.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- DWDana K. White
Like, I love being done, and yet I would try to treat my house that way, right? Like, I would say, "Okay, this is where I'm successful. This is how I tackle things in life. I'm gonna apply that to my house. And so I am going to take an entire weekend or week-"
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- DWDana K. White
"... or all of summer vacation, when I was teaching," whatever.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, my God.
- DWDana K. White
"And I'm gonna change this place, and I am gonna get it under control." And then I would step back and go, "Oh, I'm done. Wow, this is great." And life would happen, it would go right back to being what it was. It's because I was treating it like a project. Well, your house is not a project, right? Like, a- all of this isn't. And so it's like you're taking where you excel and having to say, "That doesn't work in this situation," right? So, it is okay. You have gifts. You have talents. The world needs people like us, right? Like, they, the world needs creative people who are willing to throw themselves into a big project at the expense of their house. You know, I have a friend who is very meticulous. Her house is always great. She's great at spreadsheets, that kinda stuff. Um, and she will say, like, we'll be talking about something, she's like, "Oh, I can't take that on because how would I get my dishes done and my house, keep my house under control if I did all that?" And I'm like, "Literally, that never crosses my mind when I get excited about a big project." (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
Yes, yes.
- DWDana K. White
And so (laughs) yeah, like that- that's- that's it. So, so acknowledge you have so much to offer, so let's find a way, there is a way, okay, there is a way for you to make your house not hold you back. Right? It's not that you want to turn into these other people, right, because you wanna stay you. That's a big part of it for me. I'm like, "I like me. I like the stuff that I enjoy doing. I don't wanna spend all my time on my house. So, how can I do things in a way where I'm not just having to give all that up?"... in- instead I'm able to, uh, keep my house under control. And that allows me to do even more and have more fun.
- MRMel Robbins
That sounds incredible.
- DWDana K. White
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And here's where my mind went.
- DWDana K. White
Okay.
- MRMel Robbins
When you said that a lot of the ways that people that love organization work don't work for a creative brain or a brain that, that has genius in other areas, I took a giant exhale. And 'cause when I left the bathroom with cat hair all over my, uh, T-shirt, I noticed that my husband's bathroom counter was completely clear, nothing on it. And I looked back at my counter on my bathroom side, and it looked like somebody had taken a makeup bag and a dopp kit and shaken everything out upside down and it just splattered everywhere. And I was like, "Ugh," like another one of those... "See? I can't do this right."
- DWDana K. White
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And so I just like, okay, my brain doesn't work that way. So the self-acceptance thing and the acknowledgement that you have different gifts is super important. The second thing that happened for me though, and I'm sure it happened for, you know, the person listening, is that, you know, we live in this social media world where I personally love to follow home and organization sites. I know that's really weird given that I don't really organize very well when it comes to my home, but there is, it's almost like pornography for me to look at a pantry that is color-coded and, you know, all the clear things and everything's perfect. And I know intellectually, Dana, that that was styled by a production team, that that looked like that for one second for a photo shoot and that it's not real life, but I feel like I have this crazy expectation that I want my house to look like that.
- DWDana K. White
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Why?
- DWDana K. White
I mean, it's... You're where you are. You have the makeup products all over the counter.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- DWDana K. White
And you think, "That, that's what I want."
- 20:20 – 26:44
Wait. Organizing and decluttering are NOT the same thing?
- MRMel Robbins
- DWDana K. White
Are we ready for me to tell you what the difference is?
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DWDana K. White
(laughs) I'm like, here, here's the reality.
- MRMel Robbins
Hit me. Hit me.
- DWDana K. White
That is organizing. You need to declutter. Organizing and decluttering are separate things. They are not the same thing, but I always thought they were the same thing. I would look around at my mess and I would think, "I have got to get organized."
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DWDana K. White
Because that logically makes sense, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DWDana K. White
Besides, organizing is a project. Surely I should be able to do that. But the problem was as long as I was trying to organize... First of all, first thing I would do is sit down and make a list, right? Of all the things that I was gonna change and-
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- DWDana K. White
... blah, blah, blah, and figure out how the future was gonna go, you know? And, uh, a-anyway. And I would do that, work on a space or buy a bunch of products, bring them into my house, be... The in- organizing energy was gone by the time I got home and I just dropped them by the back door and they turned into more clutter. You know? So it never-
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- DWDana K. White
... made a real impact on my house. I was at such a rock bottom point that I, I honestly thought I was giving up by saying, "I don't even have it in me to get organized. I am just gonna declutter." I... Wow. Like, like in my mind I thought, "That's how bad I am. I've just got to declutter. I can't even think about organizing yet." Decluttering changed everything in my home. So the beauty of realizing that organizing and decluttering are not the same thing and that you can just declutter and that just decluttering will change everything is that there is literally nothing to do before you get started. There is nothing. I mean, there is no planning. There's nothing. It's just starting to get stuff out of your house. Now, I have a process that I follow to kind of work me through that feeling of overwhelm when I'm looking at the mess. But decluttering is everything because when I decluttered then I knew what I had, which is what I had always wanted when I thought I needed to get organized, right? I knew where it was. I could get to it easily. I could access it easily because I'd gotten rid of all that extra stuff so that when I opened the cabinet, I just saw what I needed and I could get to it without moving 15 things, right? And so decluttering made my house look better, function better, feel better. It was the thing I had been needing that I didn't know I needed. I thought I needed to get organized.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow. Okay. So what is the difference between decluttering and organizing if you had to boil it down?
- DWDana K. White
Organizing is problem-solving. Like organizing is let me think how this space is going to work tomorrow and in the future. Now, an organized person might be like, "No, no. This is..." But I'm saying from my perspective, when I thought I needed to get organized, I thought, "Well, you know, how's, how's this all gonna go? How is this gonna function from now for the next 10 years?" And in my mind it was bins and boxes-
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DWDana K. White
... and, uh, systems and all these things that I would look at wha- which is what you're talking about when you look at those images on Instagram of the color-coded things and all that.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DWDana K. White
You look at that and you think, "That's it. I need the colors." And so you bring the colors in and then you're trying to fit all the stuff in there. But in reality, I realized, and I named it, that I have a clutter threshold. Everyone has a clutter threshold. What that means is it's the point at which you personally can keep the things in your home under control. Okay? It's the amount of stuff that you personally can keep under control. It's the reason why you and your friend can go shopping together, buy the exact same things.She puts it in her house, it looks like a magazine. You put it in your house, it looks like a thrift store. Right? Like-
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- DWDana K. White
... that, that difference between like she can handle this stuff, and that was part of that self-acceptance, right? Was realizing I brought all this stuff into my house because I wanted it, I saw potential in it, I'm a lovely person who sees value in things that no one else sees value in, right? Like that's a great quality, except that I was bringing it into my house and I couldn't handle it. Like it was not possible for me to keep my house under control with the amount of stuff that I had in my house. So it's not a-
- MRMel Robbins
Wow.
- DWDana K. White
... it's not aesthetics. Some people hear clutter threshold and they're like, "Oh, yeah, this drives me..." No, I'm talking about what can you handle? What's easy for you to keep under control? So if a space is continually getting out of control, get rid of more stuff. Oh, it's still getting out of control? Get rid of more stuff. Get rid of... Until you realize at some point, this is what happened to me is I was like, "Wait a minute. I can do this. Like I can keep this under control." And that's where I realized there's this point, this level of stuff that I can handle.
- MRMel Robbins
You are a genius.
- DWDana K. White
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
I, when I hear the word organization, I think it looks pretty. That's what I, that, and I, and you're, you're exactly right. I'm like, okay, I get, I just have to get the bins that line up and the labeler that has the nice font, and the little tags in my laundry room. And then I take all the shit that I have and I stack it all in there, and then I make it look nice, and if I spend six hours in one space and I bought all the crap, and I actually have enough energy to focus and get it all looking pretty, which in my mind is the baskets match, and it looks like a photo shoot, and everything's in its place. You're right. I'm managing shit that I can't manage because the second that our son walks in the laundry room and pulls out the thing and puts it in a different place, then everything's out of whack again, and I got no energy and it doesn't look like how it's supposed to look, and I feel unorganized again, and it all spills out from there, and then I go buy a different basket because it needs to be a bigger basket so that... Like I am driving myself and my husband crazy. And how do you know what your clutter threshold is? Like how, what is the test?
- 26:44 – 30:10
How do you know what your “clutter threshold” is?
- MRMel Robbins
- DWDana K. White
I hate to tell you this-
- MRMel Robbins
Uh-oh.
- DWDana K. White
... but there is literally no way to know other than to declutter. There's not a, there's not a quiz that you can take. Uh, you can just know if my house feels overwhelming, I'm over my clutter threshold. If my house is consistently getting out of control and I feel bewildered by that, then I'm over my clutter threshold. So declutter, the only way to find your clutter threshold is to declutter.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh my god.
- DWDana K. White
And then the maintenance for that is a five-minute pick up, okay? So this also, it does give you a gauge for am I at my clutter threshold? It doesn't mean that everything is always going to be in its place. That is just not how I roll. I do not realize when something's leaving my hand. Like it-
- MRMel Robbins
Me either.
- DWDana K. White
... there's no awareness. Things just randomly-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- DWDana K. White
... end up on surfaces, okay?
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DWDana K. White
I could beat myself up, right? Like I could be like, "Ugh, why? Why am I this way?" And it's not that I never still think those things, right? But that didn't help, right? Me saying, "Why do I do this? I've got to change. I've got to be a different person," that never helped, but what does help is for me to say, "Okay, I'm going to take five minutes. I'm going to set a timer. I'm going to pick stuff up and put it away." If five minutes gets my space or my home, my goal is my whole home, to be under control again from picking stuff up and putting it away about once a day-ish, uh, then I'm under my clutter threshold. Okay? So it's not that it stays perfect. It's that it stays manageable.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay, so can we get super tactical?
- DWDana K. White
Sure.
- MRMel Robbins
Because the second you started to talk about clutter threshold, and I started imagining my version of organization, which for the past, for my entire life has been make it look pretty. Take all the shit that I have everywhere and arrange it to look nice. Um, it's more like staging. I'm like staging shit, right? You know, everywhere. I immediately thought of my kitchen counters (laughs) which drive me fucking crazy because stuff accumulates there, and then I thought about the base of the stairs, both the stairs upstairs where everyone dumps things that need to get taken upstairs, and I thought about the stairs down to the garage, which is where we put cardboard boxes. Like I just like have stacks of shit everywhere.
- DWDana K. White
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And it drives me crazy. And so I bet as you're listening to Dana talk and you're nodding your head going, "Oh my God, this is me," and you can think about those places where, that's a place where my clutter threshold is already through the roof. Walking into the mud room, everything's everywhere. Kitchen counters, everything's everywhere. Base of the stairs, pile of stuff that somebody believes that there's like some magical fairy that lives in our house that picks it up and flies it up to the second floor and puts it in place. Where do you start? Like take us to one spot and can you walk us through the process of what decluttering actually means in that spot?
- DWDana K. White
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And how you do it?
- DWDana K. White
Uh, before we do that, let me just say the less stuff you have, the less stuff that can pile. Right? Like that was... No,
- 30:10 – 32:34
Use “the visibility rule” before you do anything.
- DWDana K. White
anyway.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- DWDana K. White
I'll move on. So here, where, where I would start. I recommend what I call the visibility rule. I recommend that you go to the place that visitors to your home will see when they either come inside or are standing at the door and you're trying to keep them from coming inside, right, because it's a mess, whatever.That is the place to start, and we're going to go through the decluttering process there. I'll, I'll explain that. But the reason why you want to start in a visible space is that you will see the progress that you're making. You-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- DWDana K. White
... will see your house getting better. The people who live with you will start to see your house getting better. You'll experience that it is easier to live in a space with less stuff, okay?
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- DWDana K. White
And so when you start there, becau- 'cause here's the thing, so many times when we get that desire to declutter, we go to the pantry, we go to the linen closet-
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs) .
- DWDana K. White
... we go to the top shelf of the master bedroom closet.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DWDana K. White
We do those spaces 'cause we think, "Okay, if I will work really hard on this, we really don't use this space that much, and so maybe it'll actually stay that way," right?
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DWDana K. White
When in reality, you can work really hard on that. You talked about, like, you know, all the color coding and blah, blah, blah in this random closet, and then at the end of the day, your husband, you know, is like, "So what'd you do today?" And you're like, "Oh, I have been organizing all day."
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- DWDana K. White
And I don't know about you, I'm not going to project this on you, but in my experience, I've had that exact scenario happen, and my husband would be like, "Really?"
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- DWDana K. White
Like, "O- okay." Well, what is more defeating than that, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DWDana K. White
Like, is to feel like I have been organizing all day and I'm still embarrassed to open my front door.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DWDana K. White
But if you work on visible spaces first, then you see the progress that you're making and you inspire yourself to keep going 'cause you're like, "Oh wow, that looks good. I may not have noticed when it was messy, but I notice now when it looks great," and then that inspires me to keep going. Okay, do you want me to talk about the actual process?
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DWDana K. White
Okay. (laughs) I know. See, I have to have, like, real steps because I have to remind myself still. I still look at a space and go, "Uh," and I'm like, "Nope, I have steps," okay? All right, so the first step is trash. Grab a black trash bag or whatever you have
- 32:34 – 36:39
This is why you begin with a BLACK trash bag.
- DWDana K. White
available. Ideally, it's black just because then you can't see what you just put inside of it. Your family can't see-
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, my God.
- DWDana K. White
... what you're putting inside of it, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Can I just confess something?
- DWDana K. White
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs) I'm almost embarrassed to tell you this. So Oakley, who is super creative, he's our 18-year-old son, his room is a profound disaster. We got into, I didn't get in an argument with him 'cause I don't live in the room so I don't really care, and I don't clean his room. Like, that's, like, you want to live like a sty? That's fine, I don't care, that's your space. But Chris was like, "What the hell, dude? Like, we built all these drawers for you to throw, and they're even big drawers so you don't have to fold things, everything's on the floor." So Oakley cleaned his room Sunday, okay? And he put all kinds of clothes in a bag that no longer fit him so we could donate them. This morning, they were sitting in the mudroom, which has profoundly passed my clutter threshold, in a clear, whitish-colored kitchen garbage bag. In the middle, I spotted a flannel shirt that I paid a lot of money for-
- DWDana K. White
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... for Christmas, that he has outgrown, and I tore open the bag, 'cause I could see it, and I pulled it out of the bag. Just this morning. So-
- DWDana K. White
It happens, right? (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
Yes, I under... No, what, what do I, and you know what I'm going to do with that? I'm going to hang it in my closet 'cause I can wear it but I don't even want it. What the fuck is-
- DWDana K. White
That's hilarious.
- MRMel Robbins
... wrong with me, Dana?
- DWDana K. White
(laughs) Nothing's wrong with you. This is normal. (laughs) Okay.
- MRMel Robbins
So is that why you have a black bag, so you can't see the stuff that you're throwing out?
- DWDana K. White
Yes, yes, that's exactly why. Now, with that, if you're like, "I don't have black trash bags," start with whatever. Start with a paper sack. I, it doesn't matter, okay?
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- DWDana K. White
But if you have a black trash bag, use that for-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- DWDana K. White
... exactly the reason that you're talking about. But I'm talking about trash, not necessarily donations at this point.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- DWDana K. White
Like, when I, when I start with trash, the reason I start with trash is it is literally the easiest of the easy stuff. I am not talking about deciding whether this item is trash. I'm talking about just saying, "That's trash, put it in the bag. That's trash, put it in the bag." It starts the movement, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- DWDana K. White
Like, there are literally no decisions to be made, no emotions to be felt. It is just the action, and that immediately makes the space less overwhelming because there's less stuff in it than there was before.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- DWDana K. White
But it also helps my brain start to adjust to what's actually there, because when I look at it as a big pile, it's like, it's a pile. The pile is overwhelming. There's important stuff in there, I'm sure, and so it feels like the whole pile is full of important decisions, difficult decisions to make. But as I'm looking for trash, I'm seeing what's actually there, which then helps me be ready to move into the next steps of the process, okay?
- MRMel Robbins
Okay. So we start with trash in a black bag.
- DWDana K. White
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
And anything that is trash. Now, I know this is a technical question-
- DWDana K. White
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... but I am mentally in a mudroom.
- 36:39 – 39:08
Focus this way on organizing, and it will change your life.
- DWDana K. White
better."
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- DWDana K. White
That means I can literally throw away two pieces of trash, one piece of trash, get distracted, step away, step away 'cause I'm just, don't wanna do this right now, and I've still made it better, which means I have been successful. Like, if I do anything, I have achieved better. Okay?
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- DWDana K. White
So, all right. Sorry, that was a little preachy break there.
- MRMel Robbins
No, I think it's, I think it's perfect because your, your, your point about us attacking this like a project that then spills out of control is part of the problem.
- DWDana K. White
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
And really leaning into this concept of decluttering as an ongoing way of life, and removing things that you have to manage is genius.
- DWDana K. White
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
'Cause I don't feel successful in this area. What's the-
- DWDana K. White
But you are successful with every piece of trash. It is better because my goal is better. My goal is to have less in this space. If you have less in this space than you did when you started, you have successfully decluttered. You're not done, but you have successfully decluttered. It's just stuff leaving your house, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Yep.
- DWDana K. White
Okay, so let's move to step two. Step two is the easy stuff. So trash was the easiest of the easy stuff 'cause it's just going straight into the trash bag.
- MRMel Robbins
Yep.
- DWDana K. White
Or the recycling bin if you have one available and accessible and established, bring it with you along with that trash bag, okay?
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- DWDana K. White
But the second step is the easy stuff. Easy stuff I define as anything that already has an established home. It's just not there for whatever reason. Like, I'm not gonna agonize over, "Why is this in the mudroom?" It's just, oh, this goes into its already-established home in the kitchen or whatever. I'm gonna take those things to their already-established homes immediately. I can take as many as my hands will hold, but I can't take any more than that. Like, I'm not gonna put them in a box. I'm not going to, um, set them in, set them aside and do it later. I'm gonna go everything that comes into my hands that I pick up that I identified as easy, having an established home, no decision to make, no emotions to be felt, I am just gonna go ahead and I'm gonna take it there now. Okay? So again, I am making this space better. I can step away at any time 'cause I'm making progress and only progress, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Got it.
- DWDana K. White
Then the third step is, duh, donations. Okay? This can happen at any point
- 39:08 – 43:48
Here’s why you don’t want a fancy “donate” box.
- DWDana K. White
in the process. It just gives me an excuse to stick stuff in my donate box immediately without asking any decluttering questions because there are things that obviously need to be put in there, but when you are someone who feels, uh, who hasn't felt successful at decluttering before, it feels like all decluttering decisions are gonna be difficult.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- DWDana K. White
So we wanna narrow down the ones that you really have to make decisions about-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- DWDana K. White
... and go ahead and just stick stuff in the donate box. The key with the donate box, like the black trash bag, is that the box itself needs to be donatable. So don't stencil the word donate on the outside of a cute wooden box. Like, that's not what we're doing, right? Because if it's-
- MRMel Robbins
That's organization. (laughs)
- DWDana K. White
Well, yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Right?
- DWDana K. White
And, and two, it just sets myself up to have to go back through that box again, right? Like, and then I'm gonna second-guess myself. And if I know that I'm gonna go through it again, then I might put things in there that I haven't actually made a real decision about, right? Because I'm like, "Future me is gonna have it all together." You know, that's what I always thought. "Someday I'm gonna be organized. How could I not be," right? So I'm gonna put this in this box because I'll know what to do with it later, and instead, I'm just putting off decisions, and then I know that that box actually has decisions to be made. So then I put off dealing with that, and that's, you know, that's what people on... I'm not on TikTok, but I hear from a lot of people who call them DOOM boxes, and they're like, "Oh, DOOM boxes. Your process works for DOOM boxes." And I'm like, "I don't..." I think it's Didn't Organize, Only Moved is what it stands for, but just the word DOOM-
- MRMel Robbins
Well, that makes sense.
- DWDana K. White
... I was like, "Oh, I know what that is." Yeah, I've had a lot of those over the years. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
Well, I'm glad that you got very granular because the second you said a donate box, I immediately imagined a plastic or a cardboard box, and I immediately imagined me taking a Sharpie and writing the word donate on a piece of paper and taping it to the side, and then I would fill it up and then, like, have more questions about what's in that box. So you're basically just saying, no, have a box that's already gonna get donated to.
- DWDana K. White
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
Some bin that you can also drop off your basket and just-
- DWDana K. White
Or Amazon boxes, whatever, yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Or Amazon boxes.
- DWDana K. White
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
Do not write the word donate. Just know that this is going.
- DWDana K. White
Do write the word donate so that you remember that was a donate box.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay, so write the word donate.
- DWDana K. White
But, right, but don't decorate it. Don't make it something you're gonna wanna reuse.
- MRMel Robbins
Got it.
- DWDana K. White
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Now, when you do this, do you recommend that you just take that box in this session and just put it in the back of your car 'cause you're done with this decluttering moment, or do we leave it somewhere?
- DWDana K. White
You know, it's really up to you. It depends on how full it is. Uh, the, the decision-making is over once the thing is in the box. The action of taking it somewhere to be donated or making the phone call to have a pickup scheduled or whatever, that, uh, is a valid use of your decluttering time, but I don't want you to not declutter because you're not gonna be able to go drop it off today. Okay?
- MRMel Robbins
Got it, okay.
- DWDana K. White
So, like, I will often have some donate bo- My husband would hear this and go, "You always have," you know?
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- DWDana K. White
I always have a donate box or two or three in a spot in our garage-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- 43:48 – 48:31
The decluttering question you’ve never heard before.
- DWDana K. White
if I needed this item, where would I look for it first?
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- DWDana K. White
Okay? It's really important that you ask exactly that question, "Where would I look for it first?" Does not allow for analysis. It is an instinct question. Okay? The word would is the key word. That means, because this item was not easy, it doesn't have an established home in my house, okay? But I pick it up and I say, okay, I've got these other, I mean, I have a prop here.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana K. White
I decided not to wear these, you know?
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana K. White
Anyway. (laughs) But if I needed my headphones, where would I look for them first? It is literally the first drawer or cabinet that I would open, even if I had no confidence they would be there. It is-
- MRMel Robbins
Got it.
- DWDana K. White
... because something, it needs a home, right? Like the whole a place for everything and everything in its place that organized people say and think is so obvious, I was always like, "What are y'all talking about?"
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- DWDana K. White
Like, I don't have places for things. Like what?
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- DWDana K. White
Like, it just didn't make any sense in my brain. And so, I had to come up with a place for things, and this is how I do that. Where would I look for it first? Because here's the thing, the beauty of putting something in the place where you would look for it first is that when you look for it, you find it in the first place where you would look for it. W- and you find it in the first place where you look for it. Isn't that the goal that you've had all along wanting to be organized?
- MRMel Robbins
It's so true, and well, no, the g- I, what I'm realizing my goal is that I just want shit to look pretty.
- DWDana K. White
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
I've never even thought about, like, organization as a way to make my life easier, and it's a genius question because I've put things in cabinets and drawers because I didn't know where else to put it.
- DWDana K. White
Yes. This is how you establish the home. You do not... What I used to do was think about where my grandma kept hers.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- DWDana K. White
And think, okay, well she, her house was always great. So, I should put mine in the place, or call my best friend who's way more organized than me and say, "Hey, where do you keep your..." whatever it is.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- DWDana K. White
And, uh, but how many people say, as a joke, or there's a Facebook meme or something that says, "I got organized and now I can't find anything."
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DWDana K. White
Right? Like, this doesn't allow for that to happen. I am putting it in the pla- and it's, it, it's hard in the beginning because you don't trust yourself, right? You're like... But what is the first place that pops in your mind where you would frantically look if you needed this item and had no idea where it was? Where's the first place where you would look? Okay?
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana K. White
And this also is part of that accepting how I actually function, as opposed to how organized people function, and I wish I was like them.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- DWDana K. White
And instead saying, okay, you know, uh, uh, fingernail clippers were the thing when I came up with this question, is I was like, everybody else in the whole wide world surely would put their fingernail clippers in the bathroom drawer because that's where they're supposed to go, right? But in my family, whenever somebody is looking for fingernail clippers, they look in this junk drawer that's like on the edge of the kitchen. That is just our reality. And I said, "You know what? I would rather have things be in the first place where we look than try to be like other people and never be able to find anything in my house."
- MRMel Robbins
That's amazing.
- DWDana K. White
So.
- MRMel Robbins
That's amazing. See, I don't know where to put, uh, uh, cl- n- nail clippers, so I just look in Chris's top drawer of the bathroom (laughs) 'cause that's where-
- 48:31 – 49:35
Here’s what REALLY happens with those organized piles.
- DWDana K. White
I used to, because I'm kind of obsessed with efficiency, which would never show with the way my house used to look, right? But I would make all these piles. I would be like, okay, this is the stuff that goes to the kids' room, this goes to the garage.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes. Yes.
- DWDana K. White
This, this goes to the bathroom.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DWDana K. White
And when I'm done...
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DWDana K. White
I will go deliver all these things through the house, and that makes so much more sense than taking it there right now.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DWDana K. White
But that's how things work in an ideal world, where I don't get distracted in the midst of a project, I don't stop halfway through, nobody starts bleeding, right? Like, I just-
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, my God.
- DWDana K. White
That's the ideal world. I don't live in an ideal world, okay? So, I decided I'm going to go ahead and take it there right now. No piles. Because before, I would step away for an hour, or three weeks, or whatever-
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- DWDana K. White
... and those neat little piles, where I had totally made all these decisions, those neat little piles now morph
- 49:35 – 50:50
No piles. Here’s what you do instead.
- DWDana K. White
into one big pile outside the space that I was initially decluttering, so my house looks worse than it did before.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DWDana K. White
That's the whole "make a bigger mess whenever you try to declutter."
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, my gosh.
- DWDana K. White
And so I said, "I'm going to go ahead, I'm going to take it there right now." And then when I do that, I can stop. I'm accepting the fact that I will get distracted or life will happen. I can stop at some point and this space is only better. It is never worse. I have never created a bigger mess. I'm taking one item at a time, making a final decision on it, and I'm acting on that final decision. So it's either gone in the trash bag, it's gone to its already established home, it has gone in the donate box, or I have established a home by asking myself, "Where would I look for this first?" And then I take it there now. Okay? So that's the key to all of this. And people will resist it-
- MRMel Robbins
Wow.
- DWDana K. White
... and then I'll say, "Just try it," and then they will try it, and then they will email me and say, "I cannot believe the difference. I cannot believe I have actually made real progress decluttering for the first time in my life. It, it's working, like, it's changing my house because of that 'Go ahead and take it there right now.'" But people don't like it-
- MRMel Robbins
Wow.
- DWDana K. White
But it still (laughs)
- 50:50 – 57:24
This is why we always put off organizing in the first place.
- DWDana K. White
it works, I'm just telling you.
- MRMel Robbins
I think it's genius because, you know, I, I, I completely related to moving and sorting and organizing things into piles and then running out of energy or time or getting distracted and not actually taking those piles anywhere.
- DWDana K. White
Well, and then you come back to the space-
- MRMel Robbins
And then you're right, and it makes it worse.
- DWDana K. White
Yes, you come back to the space and you have to make all those decisions again, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Oh my God, I, I feel like I do this every weekend.
- DWDana K. White
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
That every weekend, it is me on that hamster wheel of making piles and running things around and pulling apart stuff and holy smokes, this is revolutionary.
- DWDana K. White
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
What do you do about finding things that, like, how do you determine if you're keeping it? Because I feel like I get very paralyzed when I have an item and I've spent a lot of money for it, or somebody's given it to me, or what, or I might need it some point 10 years from now. Wh- at what point do you actually take it to the junkyard? Like, not, don-
- DWDana K. White
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Like, what's the difference between, "I'm throwing this out," versus, "I'm donating"?
- DWDana K. White
So, all of those questions that you have in your mind, or that you just stated-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- DWDana K. White
Uh, those are the natural questions that people think they need to ask when they're decluttering. I don't ask those questions. I stick to the facts. Okay? And so my process leads me through and helps me make those decisions, but without all of the emotions, because I brought all this stuff into my house because I saw the value in it, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- DWDana K. White
And so before, when I would declutter, I would make value decision after value decision, which is exhausting, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DWDana K. White
And then it's so emotionally exhausting, and I know it is that then I would put off decluttering because I was like, "I don't have it in me to make those kind of decisions today," right? Like, so instead, I say, "Okay, if I needed this item, where would I look for it first?" And then I take it there now, and then I look at that space, and sometimes, this is a common question people have is like, "What do I do when that space is its own big decluttered mess?" All I'm gonna do is I'm gonna not leave that space any worse, and I'm gonna say, "What am I willing to get rid of from this messy space where I would look for this item first-"
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana K. White
"... what am I willing to get rid of from here that will create the space that I need for this item that I answered I would look for it first here?" Okay? So, it might be trash. Ideally, it's going to be trash or dead donations 'cause then my trash bag and my donate box are back at the space I was initially decluttering, and that'll take me back there, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- DWDana K. White
But, so I'm just gonna say, "What in here trash," because it needs to be decluttered, right? Like I just said, it's a total mess, there's no room for this, so it's gonna be decluttered, but I'm not doing that right now. I'm sticking with this initial space, and so I'm like, "What in here am I willing to get rid of in order to make room for this?" And so it helps me, instead of saying, "Does this thing have value?" I say, "Is there a space for it?" Which is a very, um... What's the word? Uh, it's, it's leaving my brain right now, but it's a very fact-based-
- MRMel Robbins
I don't know, I'm hanging on every single word. Well, what do you do if you have like a basement or garage? There's like space in there. Can I, can I just give you an example?
- DWDana K. White
Sure.
- MRMel Robbins
I'm starting to realize how nuts I am about this stuff.
- DWDana K. White
You are not nuts.
- MRMel Robbins
No, but I, but I literally am realizing I, I, and I don't know if you listening to us are feeling the same sort of energy drain, but I'm realizing how much noise and, and, and just how much drama I add to the process of what I thought was organizing.
- DWDana K. White
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And so I'll give you an example. So, I've talked about how our son, Oakley, who is very creative, who will love this process, who spent half of his Sunday organizing his room to make his dad happy, and then-He did the big thing of clothes. I've admitted that I ripped through it and pulled two things out. I don't know where I'm going to put that stuff 'cause I guess it would go in my... I don't even know why I kept it. I kept it because it's, it was something that I bought him for Christmas that was rather expensive. And then there's a jacket that's, like, a fall jacket that, because I bought it for him when he was 15, he literally wore it for about a minute before he grew out of it, and it was expensive. And so, I see this jacket, I grab it. I'm like, "Okay, we live in Vermont. People visit. Should I hold on to this in case somebody visits and they didn't pack a jacket? Maybe this would fit me and it would fit this." And then I... Like, I literally attach all this meaning, and I create these stories about why I need to keep the thing and the value of the thing. And if I ask myself, "If I needed this item, where would I look for it?" I'm even stalled because I go, "Well, I don't really need it in the mudroom. Maybe I should create a place in the basement for extra clothes for guests who forgot clothes that you need when you visit Vermont." What the fuck is going on? Like, I donate, duh.
- 57:24 – 1:00:21
The second decluttering question you’ve never heard before.
- DWDana K. White
myself if my first response to, "Where would I look for this first?" whether it's about the jacket, whether it's about a stapler, whatever. If I look at the item and I'm like, "Where would I look for this first?" and my answer is, "Uh," you know? Like, okay? Then I ask myself the question, "If I needed this item, would it ever occur to me that I already had one?" Okay? I can think about this being in your scenario that you were talking about with the... But we're not going to bring the scenario into it. We're just going to ask the fact-based question. If I needed this jacket, would it occur to me that we already had one? And it's tough because you're holding it in your hand, right? Like, it's there. It's in front of you. And then how many of us are like, "Well, I just decluttered something and then I ended up needing it"? But I had to make progress in my home.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah, yeah.
- DWDana K. White
I had to get stuff out of my house, right? So I had to make these hard calls and say, "I'm going to be honest. If I needed this, would it occur to me that I already had one?" Because I didn't have a place where I would look for it first, which means I would not have even gone looking for it. Instead, I would have done without. You know, we would have said, "Hey, here's six sweatshirts, kid who forgot your coat," right? Or, "Hey, let's run by the store and grab one," you know, or whatever. But those are both valid options, but the thing is, if I didn't get rid of this item, and I wouldn't have looked for it if I needed it, it's just sitting in my house, and I'm adding more to it as I go and grab what I need because it doesn't occur to me that I already have one.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- DWDana K. White
Okay? So, so that right there is, is me saying, "This is my reality check. I'm going to stick it in the donate box." If I insist that I would know that I had it, then I have to go back to that first question and say, "Where would I actually look for this first?" Not that I think it's going to be there, but literally, if I know for sure that I have this, then there has to be a first place where I would look, right? And I need to be honest with myself about that too.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow. You know, this is fascinating because it is a whole new way to think about this, because again, just to come back to this example, it wasn't even like I saw it in the mudroom. I came out of my bedroom, and I don't know if anybody else's family members do this, but somehow our staircase upstairs is the garbage and laundry chute, where people just chuck things over the banister and they land up, like, at the bottom of the stairs, and so there was the donate, like, trash bag with the flannel shirts that I ripped out, and then laying a couple stairs above was this jacket that no longer fits him. And you can do this process, is what I'm realizing, in that moment, because I think that's also the reality. The reality of the decluttering
- 1:00:21 – 1:05:57
Stop making organizing seem so big!
- MRMel Robbins
process, if I'm tracking, is not that you go, "Okay, this Sunday, I'm doing this in the mudroom." It's that you walk out of your bedroom and you're like, "What the fuck?" Okay, so I've thrown all this stuff down. It's 7:15 in the morning. There's now a giant mess in front of me at the base of the stairs. And you're saying you can do this process right now.
- DWDana K. White
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
I see the jacket. It doesn't belong there. I have a choice in that moment to say, "If I needed this item, where would I look for this first?" And if it's not immediate, and if, if I... the answer is the mudroom, I walk to the mudroom and hang it up.If the answer is, "Ooh, no, it doesn't fit him anymore, and do we even need to keep it? No, no, no," and I go to the second question, which is if... What was the second question? If I-
- DWDana K. White
If I needed this item, would it ever occur to me that I already had one?
- MRMel Robbins
If I needed this item, would it occur to me that I already had one? And the answer's yes, 'cause I have the exact same size in a jacket for me, uh, by the same company. So yes, I have one.
- DWDana K. White
Would you, would it occur to you that you had the second one?
- MRMel Robbins
Um-
- DWDana K. White
That you had your son's jacket? Because if it would, then it's, it's fine-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah. Yeah.
- DWDana K. White
...to go take it with the place where you would look for it first, because we're also gonna address the reality of that space as we get into the last step of the process, but-
- MRMel Robbins
Got it.
- DWDana K. White
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
So let's just say, let's indulge my psychoness, okay?
- DWDana K. White
Okay. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
'Cause I think we all have that.
- DWDana K. White
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
If you're a creative mind, you're also thinking, "Huh, someday, 15 years from now, there might be a scenario where I wish I had this," right?
- DWDana K. White
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
So let's just say I go, "Okay, I, um, where am I gonna look for this first?" And I make a snap decision, this goes in my guest closet, right? And I have a little rack in the basement. I-
- DWDana K. White
No, no, you, you didn't make a decision.
- MRMel Robbins
Uh-oh.
- DWDana K. White
You asked yourself a question that revealed your instinct of where you would look for it first. Sorry, I just had to-
- MRMel Robbins
If I... No, no, no. Great, great, great.
- DWDana K. White
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
If I needed this item, where would I look for it first? And my instinct would be, it would be in the basement in a little area I've created for extra stuff in case somebody needs to borrow something.
- DWDana K. White
Okay.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs) Which I don't know why I need this, but I had it. So I would then go downstairs to the basement to this place that has not been created yet, and I would put the sh- the jacket there?
- DWDana K. White
Yeah. If that's the place where you would look for it first, then you'd put it there. But if there is no thing there, like there's no place for it, but there's a pile of other stuff, okay, I'm not gonna leave that any worse, so what am I willing to get rid of in order to make room for this jacket?
- MRMel Robbins
Oh.
- DWDana K. White
Which often... Which means something is leaving your house, right? So you are decluttering. But often, it will help you realize, "Oh, wait, there's not actually a good place for this here." Or, "Wait, I'm not willing to get rid of any of this stuff in order for this jacket to stay." And it will help you realize, "Oh, I can just donate this item."
- 1:05:57 – 1:07:55
Why doesn’t it work to buy all those organizing containers?
- DWDana K. White
that containers were for putting things in, right? Organized people love containers. They buy containers. Their house looks great. I must need more containers. And so I would bring containers into my house. So here's my little, my little scenario that I give. Let's say my friend whose kids were the same age as mine, you know, her little craft area looked amazing. Mine was this huge pile disaster spilling out of the cabinet, okay? And I would look and say, "Oh, she has her crayons in a red bucket."
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DWDana K. White
That's the difference between her and me, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DWDana K. White
Like, she has a red bucket. I don't have a red bucket. That's why my space is a disaster. So I would go and buy a red bucket, and I would dump crayons in there, and I would realize, "Oh, I've still got 700 crayons left over. (sighs) Why does this not work for me the way it works for her?" So I would go out and buy two more red buckets, and then I would put the rest of my crayons in those red buckets. I'd go to put the red buckets on the shelf, and my shelf wouldn't fit three red buckets. And I would think, "Are you kidding me? Why is this so hard for me?"
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- DWDana K. White
Like, "Why does this not work for me?" And then eventually I would be like, "Well, obviously I need more shelves."... so I'd buy more shelves and then at some point I would think, "Well, I don't have any room for more shelves. Obviously, I need a new house, and we can't afford a new house right now, so I am doomed to be disorganized." That is just how my brain worked. I just thought that if I, you know, ran out of space in a container, I bought another container. And in reality, her space, I mean, her house was smaller than mine. But in my mind, my issue was that my house was too small. Right?
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- DWDana K. White
Like which doesn't make sense, but it made total sense-
- MRMel Robbins
Makes sense.
- DWDana K. White
... to my brain before.
- MRMel Robbins
Yep, yep.
- DWDana K. White
Right. So, when I was working, I was talking to myself, 'cause that's what I do, it's how I've been able to build what I've built, you know? (laughs) Um, but I was talking and I was saying, "Container," c- and I went, "Container.
- 1:07:55 – 1:16:55
We’ve gotten the purpose of containers all wrong!
- DWDana K. White
Contain." Like the word contain is in there. Serve as a limit, set a boundary. You know, like firefighters contain a fire, they create a boundary, and as long as the fire stays inside the boundary, they can keep it under control. But if it goes outside the boundary, bad things happen, right? So like their whole goal is to keep it within this boundary. And I realized, oh, a container is not for putting things in. A container is meant to serve as a limit, to serve as a boundary.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow.
- DWDana K. White
And that changed everything for me, because I was able to say, "Okay, here's the red bucket. It's not gonna fit everything, but it's the boundary. So I'm gonna put my favorite crayons in first," and when it's full, something happens in my brain and I realize, oh, maybe I don't need 1,000 crayons.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- DWDana K. White
Oh, okay. And I haven't had to make value decisions. Remember we were talking about this thing, but what about when I might use it, and what about, you know, and it was expensive and blah, blah, blah. Before, I would pick up every single crayon, I mean, this is all hypothetical, right? But not really. Uh, but I would pick up every crayon and be like, "Well, I mean, I know it's broken, but broken crayons still color, right?"
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, yes, that's right.
- DWDana K. White
Right. I mean, there's Facebook memes about that, right? So-
- MRMel Robbins
Oh my God.
- DWDana K. White
So, I would make all these... And it took forever for me to analyze every single one. And instead it's just I'm gonna put my favorite ones in first, and I'm gonna l- let the container make the hard decision for me.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow.
- DWDana K. White
And then when I go to put the, uh, the red bucket on the shelf, I have to acknowledge that the shelf is also a container. The shelf is a limit, and it determines how many red buckets I can have.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh my God.
- DWDana K. White
And the size of the room determines how many shelves I can have. And the size of my house is the size of my house. Remember, it's that reality acceptance, right? So I'm like, the size of my house is the size of my house, and if I'm gonna put my favorite things in first, and I'm gonna realize my house is a container, my house is a limit, what's my favorite thing in my house? It's the people who live in it, right? So like, we deserve space first, which means I can't just keep putting in more shelves that make it hard for me to move around and make it hard for me to get to where I need to get. And so that just shifted everything, and I said, "Does it have space in the container?" It actually doesn't matter how valuable something is, how much sentimental, you know, feelings I have toward it. It's, does it have space? I can keep anything, but I can't keep everything.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- DWDana K. White
And my house ever have a chance of being under control. Okay?
- MRMel Robbins
Wow.
- DWDana K. White
So, that's the container concept which changes how you look at your house and how you look at your stuff, and lets me let go of things, because I'm like, "It's not me. I see the value. It's the container."
- MRMel Robbins
Wow.
- DWDana K. White
I don't have the space for it.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow.
- DWDana K. White
And that is very freeing.
- MRMel Robbins
Jessie, could you go grab me those two Mason jars in the back with the pencils on 'em, on our little caddy full of shit in the office?
- DWDana K. White
(laughs) I hope not. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, it's this one. It just depends. It's this one.
- DWDana K. White
Yeah, yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay. So this one's good because we use... I'm, I've got Mason jars that have Sharpies, which we use, right?
- DWDana K. White
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
But you know, I've gotta point out here that this right here are watercolor pencils that Chris's mother gave to one of our kids probably 10 Christmases ago.
- DWDana K. White
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And I've never used them. I don't want them. I, uh, tried to organize them by putting them in this jar, and then I thought, "Okay, I'll just put 'em in the office in case we ever decide we'd like to watercolor someday as an art project."
- 1:16:55 – 1:22:13
So how DO you live with a partner who’s a slob
- NANarrator
What do you do if your spouse is a sloppy person but you're not? I feel like I am constantly trying to organize our house and keep it clean, but my husband has such a difficult time keeping it that way. I am constantly picking up after him. Anyone that comes over knows my side of the room versus his side. We are childless by choice, but sometimes I feel like I have a house full of them. Help. Thank you.
- MRMel Robbins
Dana?
- DWDana K. White
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
Please help us 'cause I am her husband.
- DWDana K. White
Right. And I think that's where I come in into this scenario is I always say, "Just so you know, I'm speaking from the perspective of her husband." I am not... There is not a way to change other people, right? Like, it's, uh, and nobody likes to be changed-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- DWDana K. White
... especially in a relationship, you know? I mean, it just, right? Like, it often makes you hold on tighter to your stuff when you're like, you're just criticizing or whatever. So not saying that that's what she's doing at all. But here are the things to remember that we've talked about. Clutter threshold, okay?
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana K. White
Your husband has a different clutter threshold than you do.
- MRMel Robbins
Hm.
- DWDana K. White
In common spaces, declutter down to the lowest common clutter threshold. Now, I am not a math person, but I do sort of remember what lowest common denominators were, right? (laughs) You know? And so it's like you go, you just go down more and more and more until you hit that lowest common clutter threshold in shared spaces. That doesn't mean you can't have elaborate systems in your spaces that are, like, yours to be in charge of, or, you know, we all have different spaces within our home, but in those common spaces, it is likely never going to w- be satisfactory for you if you just create an elaborate system that would work for you and then try to push him into that system. Instead, remember the value of decluttering. If something does not exist in your home, it cannot end up all over the place.
- MRMel Robbins
Hm.
- DWDana K. White
Right? Okay?
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- DWDana K. White
Now-... along with that, I'm not saying get rid of his stuff so that it can't get out of control. That's not what I'm saying at all. All right?
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- DWDana K. White
But when we go back to the container concept, as far as, like, things that are his, give him a space. Okay? And I don't mean like, "This is your space," but I mean, honor the fact that he has things that he's into that are different from yours, you have things that you're into as well, and say, "Okay, I am going to clear out this closet, or this shelf, or whatever space we have available. I'm gonna clear this out and say, 'Hey, this is for you.'" This is what I did for my husband who also, I mean, I'm very thankful that he's not super neat because he's, but he's way neater than me, you know? (laughs) So he's always been very, very patient with all of my issues, you know. Uh, but what I did was I s- I cleaned out something where I had thought I needed to have a place for, I think it's where I kept my kids' out-of-season clothes. And I said, "No, I'm gonna clear that out. I'm gonna empty it out and I'm gonna say, 'Hey, this is your s- space for all of your 1980s memorabilia collectibles that you have, you know, collected over the years.'" Because he loves that kind of stuff. But he didn't really do anything with it and so it was just kind of there, and it would just get shifted all around. So I'm like, "This is the space for this." Uh, and he was like, "Oh. Oh. Wow. Okay." You know, I mean, because I was saying, it's not, I'm not gonna have this argument over, "Why do you have that stuff?" Like that, the word why will shut people down immediately.
- MRMel Robbins
Right. Right. Right.
- DWDana K. White
So instead say, "Okay, this is the place that I have created for you, um, so yeah, put your favorite things in there first. And then, you know, I mean, whatever doesn't fit, you know, we'll get rid of that." But that worked so well. And it's so funny because, um, my husband has come on my podcast, like, whenever I hit 100 episodes, and so on the 100th episode, it was his first time on there and somebody had asked a question for him. And, uh, you know, "How does Dana help you declutter?" And he was like, "Well, you know, she gave me, she cleared out this, this thing that, and then she told me, 'Hey, put your favorite, you know, memorabilia stuff in there first,' and then w- I was, and then she was like, 'Whatever doesn't fit, get rid of that.'" And he was like, "And that just made it really easy for me to, you know, determine what I loved and what I didn't love as much." And I said, "Oh, yeah, the container concept." And he was like, "What?" You know, like, you don't have to explain the container concept to them. Give them a space and say, "Hey, this is your space." And then the key there is to not judge what they put in it. Like, let them just put their favorite things in first and there is no criticism over that. You're gonna, I mean, like, and this happens a lot with kids, right? Like is, you say, "Okay, this is, put your favorite stuffed animals in here first," and then they don't keep the one that you spent a lot of money on and that, you know, you thought was gonna be highly sentimental, and instead they keep the one that the neighbor gave them that they won at Six Flags and, you know, it's leaking little white-
Episode duration: 1:42:40
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