The Mel Robbins PodcastHow to Build the Life You Want: Timeless Wisdom for More Happiness & Purpose
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
125 min read · 25,265 words- 0:00 – 5:51
Intro
- MRMel Robbins
(typing) (instrumental music) I'm Mel Robbins. I'm a New York Times bestselling author and one of the world's leading experts on confidence and motivation. Ooh. What was that? The camera just stopped. I think. What? It just went ber. Yeah, I heard that. Why? I don't know. I don't know either. (beep) He's also the New York Times bestselling author of eight, yep, you heard it, eight incredible books all about happiness, many of which are required reading in university course. (beep)
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
So that's the first thing that, that I learned. Now, things that I found-
- MRMel Robbins
(beep) What? (beep) Maybe we should put an iPhone right there just in case- (laughs)
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
... so we can keep going. (beep) Paradoxically, it actually leads to more happiness. (beep) (typing) (instrumental music) (clock ticking)
- MRMel Robbins
Hey, it's your friend, Mel, and thank you so much for spending some time with me today. And I also wanna thank you for making the decision to listen to something that could help you improve your life. I think that's pretty cool. Now, if you're new, I wanna welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. And by the way, thank you for making this one of the most popular podcasts in the entire world. My name's Mel Robbins. I'm a New York Times bestselling author and one of the world's leading experts on confidence and motivation. And I'm on a mission to inspire and empower you with the tools and expert resources that you need to create a better life. And you wanna know a very important component of creating a better life? That's happiness. And I know that this is a topic that you love hearing about. In fact, every single time that you and I talk about it together, you want more. And today, I'm gonna introduce you to somebody I deeply admire. He is one of the world's leading experts on happiness. His name, Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar. And that name, I bet you're like, "Wait a minute, I think I've heard that name before." Well, let me tell you where you may have heard it, because we did an episode just a little bit ago on the science of goals, and I'll link to that in the resources. I will link to everything we talk about in the resources. And at the very end of that episode, I shared some powerful research from none other than Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar. Remember that? It was the research about the Olympic medalists and how they felt happier as they were training for the Olympics, when they were pursuing that dream, way happier when they were pursuing it than when they actually won the medal. And that part of the episode about goals and how goals are critical to happiness, because your goals represent the pursuit of something that matters to you, you loved that. So you know what I did? I begged Tal to join us today, and he is here. He is here to unpack his research and share very specific takeaways with you. Now, Tal is very well-known for being Harvard University's most popular teacher, like, ever. He taught two of the most popular courses in Harvard's history, positive psychology and the psychology of leadership, and today, you are getting key takeaways. He's also the New York Times bestselling author of eight, yep, you heard it, eight incredible books all about happiness. And you know what I love about Tal? Even though I've only just met him in real life, I've been studying his work forever, but what I love about him is that he has this amazing ability to bridge the academic aspect of happiness with the insights that you need to apply it to your life, and today, Tal is sharing the five elements of happiness. So let's jump in. Tal, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Thank you, Mel. So good to be here.
- MRMel Robbins
I am so excited to talk to you. I wanna just start with the beginning of your story, because here you are, one of the world's leading experts on the topic of happiness, something we all wanna know more about, but when you got to college, you thought you were gonna study computer science. So, what happened in your life that created this big pivot?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Mm-hmm. So, I became interested in happiness because of my own unhappiness.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh. (laughs)
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
And, um, you know, it started off, uh, even before, uh, college, I was a, a squash player. My dream as a, as a young boy was to be a professional athlete. Uh, initially it was supposed to be basketball, but I stopped growing at about the age of five, six-
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
... so, uh, that didn't happen. Um, but squash was it for me. And I wasn't happy as a child, but I would always tell myself, "When I become a professional, when I win the national championship, then I'll be happy." And, uh, for years, I was quite miserable, and then I won the national championship, and I was not just happy, I was ecstatic-
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
... for about four hours, and then again, going back to where I was before, the same stress and unhappiness. And I thought something was wrong here with my model, but then I said, "Oh, no, it's when I become a world champion, then I'll be happy." And I continued towards that, and I played professionally for a few years, and, uh, then I got injured.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
And I went to college, and I said, "Okay, so I didn't make it in, uh, in, in, in athletics, but I'll do it academically."
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
And I went to Harvard, and, uh, I was a top student there, and I was miserable. And my sophomore year, very cold Boston morning, I went to my academic advisor, and I told her that "I'm switching majors." I was a computer science major, and she said, uh, "What to?" And I said, "Well, I'm leaving computer science and moving over to philosophy and psychology." And she said, "Why?" And I said, "Because I have two questions.
- 5:51 – 10:17
The two questions that ultimately led to Dr. Ben-Shahar’s career.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
First, why aren't I happy? Second, how can I become happier?" And it's with these two questions that I then went on to get my undergraduate degree, then went to graduate school in education and organizational behavior, all the time asking, "How can I help myself, individuals, couples, organizations, and ultimately nations increase their levels of happiness?" And that was, uh, 30 years ago.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow. That's quite a... You sound like a really intense dude.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
No, seriously, like you sound like somebody that was incredibly tightly wound, but that's not my experience of you right now. And so, I only say that because, to me, if somebody that is that driven, and that competitive, and that tightly wound can figure out, first of all, why you're not happy, and also then figure out how to become a happier person, and then translate that to everybody else, that's cool because that means the rest of us can probably do it too.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Um, there's no question on my mind, again, after 30 years of, uh, work, internal work, external work, research, that there is a lot that we can do to become happier.
- MRMel Robbins
So if you go back to that sophomore you at Harvard, and you're sitting there with your academic advisor and your advisor says, "Wait, what? You're gonna switch? Why would you switch?" And you say, "Because I wanna figure out why I'm so unhappy," what did you learn about why you were so unhappy that we might be able to apply to our own lives?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Yeah, so the first thing that I, that I learned, or that was, uh, you know, obvious to me at that time was that success doesn't lead to happiness.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
You know, we think there are certain boxes that we need to check, so for me, it was winning that championship, or later, getting into Harvard, or becoming a top student, or getting a good job and making a lot of money. And we know, you know, all of us know that the best that these achievements can do is lead to temporary happiness, a spike.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
But that high doesn't last. So that's the first thing that, that I learned. Now, the thing that amazed me is that while we all know that achievement, uh, attainment, reaching a goal will not lead to lasting happiness, we continue to live as if it will.
- MRMel Robbins
Why? Like why- why wouldn't it make you happy to achieve something that you've worked really hard to get?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Because our system is built for the pursuit, not for the outcome. So once there is the outcome, there is sort of like a, "Okay, check. Been there, done that. Now I need something else." And that's part of our nature, and you know, you may say, you know, "It's- it's terrible. It's awful." Why is it that it just is? You know, why is the law of gravity the law of gravity? And the question is, how do we accept nature? Just like we accept the law of gravity-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
... how do we accept our human nature and then build our life based on that?
- MRMel Robbins
So if I'm hearing you correctly, what you're saying is that one of the biggest things that somebody could take away from this conversation with you is that you are not hardwired to feel happy simply because you've achieved something, that happiness is tied to pursuing it, not the achieving of it?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Yes, and if you do live by the, uh, uh, belief that achievement will lead to happiness, that will cause you a great deal of unhappiness.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, that's a big one.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
In fact, that is one of the main causes for, uh, the levels of unhappiness that we see in our world, because people are focusing on, uh, on the wrong thing, you know? They're, they're climbing up the wrong mountain.
- MRMel Robbins
So can you break that down for us? 'Cause I wanna just stay on this point and highlight it, because if f- if thinking about happiness wrong creates unhappiness, like explain to us how you want us to think about happiness.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Mm. So, happiness is important. It matters. Just like we are, uh, hardwired, uh, not to celebrate successes forever, we're also hardwired to pursue happiness.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
So it's not that I'm saying, "Okay, forget about happiness." Happiness matters.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
However, there's also research, and this is, um, research done, uh, quite, quite recently by
- 10:17 – 13:22
The research that cautions about what you promise yourself in the morning.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
a Professor Maus, M-A-U-S, showing that if I wake up in the morning and say to myself, "I wanna be happy." Or, "Happiness is important for me." Or, um, "It's a value for me." I will actually become less happy.
- MRMel Robbins
What? (laughs)
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Which is-
- MRMel Robbins
Wait a minute.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Yeah. We-
- MRMel Robbins
Really?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
That, that was exactly my reaction. That's a problem, you know, and, you know, I read about this, you know, five years ago, and I said, "But, you know, that's what I'm dedicating my life to. Of course happiness is important for me," and yet what the research clearly shows is that, um, this will make you less happy. So does this mean we should, um, kid ourselves, you know, say to ourselves, "You know, I don't wanna be happy. Wink, wink. I actually do." You know, self-deception is certainly not the path to happiness. So what do we do about it? Well, let me use an analogy that was very helpful for me in thinking about happiness. Imagine you go outside. It's a, it's a beautiful sunny day.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
And you wanna enjoy the sun, so you look up at the sun directly. What happens? You hurt yourself. It burns. It hurts. You tear up. So looking at the sun directly hurts. However, what if you take a prism and you break the sunlight, and then you look at what has just been broken, in other words, the colors of the rainbow?
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Then you can look at the, the sunlight and enjoy it, but you're looking at it indirectly. It's the same with happiness. Pursuing it directly and saying, "I wanna be happy. Happiness is important for me." That, that will make us unhappy. But if I break down happiness into its metaphorical colors of the rainbow and then pursue it indirectly, that is when I can actually become happier.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay, so I'm gonna see if I can understand this, because you're saying, "I totally get the part that if you focus at something maniacally, right, you're gonna get the sun spots. You can't, you cannot hold that intent gaze at something, even if you want to." But when the sunlight hits a prism and it casts a rainbow-You're saying that the rainbow, uh, is the way that you indirectly enjoy the sun. I have so many questions. The first one I have is, what is the definition of happiness?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
There are five elements to happiness. There may be more, but five main elements to happiness-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
... which, uh, we call the SPIRE elements.
- MRMel Robbins
The SPIRE?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
S-P-I-R-E. S stands for spiritual wellbeing.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Spiritual wellbeing is about, uh, of course, we can attain it through religion, but we can also find it through, uh, doing something that is meaningful to us, purposeful, uh, by being mindful, by being present, we experience the, the spiritual. That's one of the colors of the rainbow. So if I wake up in the morning and say, "I want to be happy," I'll be less happy. But if I wake up in the morning and say, "I want to find something which is more meaningful to do."
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Or, "I'm gonna meditate for 10 minutes now." That is an indirect way of pursuing
- 13:22 – 18:22
The 5 major elements of happiness.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
happiness. That's one of the colors. So that's the S of SPIRE. The P of SPIRE, that's physical wellbeing. Physical wellbeing is about nutrition, it's about, um, about rest and recovery, sleep. It's about, uh, uh, touch, it's about, um, what we eat. That, of course, matters. So, if I start to exercise regularly, that's an indirect way of pursuing happiness.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
If I eat more healthfully, the same. Then we have the I of SPIRE. I stands for intellectual wellbeing. That's about, uh, curiosity, about asking questions, about constantly learning, about deep diving, whether it's into a text or a work of art, or nature. And these are, again, all indirect ways of pursuing happiness. The fourth color of the rainbow, the R of SPIRE, relational wellbeing. Number one predictor of happiness, quality time we spend with people we care about and who care about us. So if I spend more time with my loved ones, indirectly pursuing happiness. And finally the E of SPIRE, emotional wellbeing. Emotional wellbeing is, first of all, about giving ourselves the permission to be human. In other words, allowing the, um, embracing painful emotions that are natural part of any life, even a happy life, sadness, anger, frustration. Allowing these emotions to freely flow through us paradoxically actually leads to more happiness. So these five elements of happiness, spiritual, physical, intellectual, relational and emotional wellbeing, are the metaphorical colors of the rainbow. And when we pursue them, we are actually pursuing happiness indirectly, and becoming happier.
- MRMel Robbins
As you were describing all five elements, you did keep saying the word wellbeing. And what I wonder as I'm listening, because it makes a lot of sense, right, that all of these components go into a, a, a whole look at how to elevate or experience happiness in your life. What do I got to achieve next to feel that thing that I wanna feel? How would you begin to explain to somebody like that what this actually means and how you pursue it? If you don't even know what happiness kind of feels like, you got the wrong definition.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Right. You know, so the first thing that I would do is I would take a step back and, um, explore models of happiness, because if you think about it, in our culture today, we have two major models of happiness. The one model of happiness which is mostly associated with the West is you become happier by achieving your goals.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
That's the most important thing. You get to the peak of the mountain, then you'll be happy.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
That's a model that I tried and that many people tried. It doesn't really work. The other model that people veer towards is, "Uh, okay, so the future doesn't get us happiness. Let's focus on the now. Let's just be in the present moment."
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
And that's an alternative model which is mostly, again, this is very broad brushstrokes, mostly associated with the East.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
You know, meditation, mindfulness, being the here and now. There are problems with both models. We know what the problem is with the future-oriented model, but there's also a problem with the present-oriented model, and that is human nature again, because we do want goals, we do, we are ambitious, we do want to achieve things, and, and, and, and whether you're living here or in, uh, in Vietnam. And the question is, can these two models be reconciled? In other words, can you draw on the best of both worlds? And the answer is yes. Goals matter, they're important. Whether it is to, you know, to win a championship in sports or whether it is to get into a college or whether it is to make X amount of money-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
... goals matter. We care about them.
- MRMel Robbins
Why do they matter in the context of happiness?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Well, they matter because, again, it's part of our nature. We want to improve, we want to get better, and that's a beautiful and wonderful part of our nature which we ought to celebrate, not, uh, not, not attack. So that's a good thing.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
However, what we also know is that the achievement of these goals will not make us happy. What will make us happy? Not the achievement of these goals, but the existence of these goals.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Whether or not I achieve them is actually less important. To have them matters. Why does it matter? Because think about it. You go on a road trip and you've no idea where you're going. So, you know, you turn left or right, you look over, "Am I falling over a, a, a cliff? What should I do today? Is this the right thing?" You know, it's, it's, you're
- 18:22 – 22:35
How having a goal makes you happier.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
meandering, you're not certain, you're not happy then.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
But if you know, "I'm going to the top of that mountain over there."... then you can, you know, go there with full energy, with motivation, especially if that mountaintop is meaningful to you, which is an important component of a goal, of course. So, you have a meaning go- full goal, you're going towards it, and what does having that goal do? What it does for you is it liberates you to enjoy the here and now. And that's-
- MRMel Robbins
That makes a lot of sense, actually.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
... and that's, and, and that's how the two of- the two of them are reconciled.
- MRMel Robbins
Because it gives your day-to-day life a sense of purpose and direction. And I can see how if you wake up in the morning and you're either just going through the motions, or you wake up in the morning and you're not quite sure what to do with your time because you're not quite sure what you want, how that lack of purpose then starts to probably make you think too much, and probably make you start to dwell on questions like, "Am I happy? Am I not happy? What should I be doing? I don't know. Am I lost? Am I stuck? Am I..." I mean, I've certainly been in those areas of my life, and so you're absolutely right about that. I see what you're saying.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
And then what that means is that that future goal is not an end, but rather a means. It's a means towards liberating you to enjoy the here and now.
- MRMel Robbins
Tal, thank you for explaining that. And this is a great moment to remind you as you're listening, that the episode that we did on the science of setting deeply personal goals, we're gonna link to that in the resources. It also is the episode that features some of Tal's research on goal setting. That's there for you. I want to hear a quick word from our sponsors who are bringing us this amazing, amazing information about happiness at zero cost. Do not go anywhere. You're gonna be happy you stuck around because when we come back, I'm going to ask Tal to walk you and I step-by-step through all five elements of happiness and give us a specific example of a simple action you could take in each area that will make you feel happier today. Stay with me. Hey, it's Mel. You know, I see you showing up here all the time on YouTube and I love inspiring you, but just imagine what would happen if for the next six months you took everything that you've been learning here on YouTube with me and you put it into action in your life. Let me help you do it. Let me give you the structure, the accountability, and the support that you deserve. I want you in my six-month exclusive coaching program called Launch. Registration is open right now. It closes on April 25th at 7:00 PM Eastern and then that's it. I'm not offering this coaching program again until 2025. You have no idea how successful you could be. Now's your chance to find out. Go to melrobbins.com/launch before another year of your life goes by or click the link below. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel, and boy, are you in for a treat today. I'm so excited. We are here with Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar. He is the most popular professor in history at Harvard, teaches positive psychology, the psychology of leadership, and we are going through 30 years of his work on happiness, and more importantly, how you can be a happier you. Now, we've already covered two important things. Let me just recap to make sure that you got this, that happiness is about wholeness and there are five elements to you being happier, spiritual, physical, your intellectual wellness, relationships, and emotional. And one of the things that I wanted to ask you, Tal, is... You're talking a lot about the things we can do to improve those areas of our life which impacts our happiness. For somebody listening that maybe has not grown up around happy people-
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... doesn't really
- 22:35 – 24:06
Where do you begin if you don’t even know what happiness feels like?
- MRMel Robbins
know if happiness is possible or even kinda what it feels like-
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... where do you even begin if you don't know what happiness looks like or feels like or how to achieve it?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Yeah. You know, um, one of, um, I, I always, um, tell my students that the best self-help books are biographies. Why? Because biographies give us, you know, the, the deep, uh, understanding of what a, a happy life or miserable or a successful life looks like. And, uh, one of my favorite biographies is, uh, Mahatma Gandhi's.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
The subtitle of his, uh, autobiography is My Experiments with Truth.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
It's not "My Finding Truth," it's not "The Ultimate Truth." It's My Experiments with Truth. And that, for me, is a guiding mantra, and I think it ought to be for many of us, because it is very much about experimentation. It's about trying things out. It's about trying different ways of being, living, and doing. And through experimentation, if we're not afraid of experimenting, of trying, if we're not afraid of falling down, then we'll get better, then we'll grow, then we will actually become happier, with an emphasis on happier. What do I mean by that? See, many people ask me, "Okay, Tal, you've been in this business for 30 years. 30 years ago you embarked on this journey. Are you finally happy today?"
- MRMel Robbins
Are you?
- 24:06 – 25:47
The shocking but honest answer Dr. Ben-Shahar gave about happiness.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Good question. My answer is, I don't know.
- MRMel Robbins
What? That is not-
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
I re-
- MRMel Robbins
... acceptable, Tal.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
I- I'm sorry.
- MRMel Robbins
You're supposed to be here-
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... and tell us to be happy, how to be happy, and you don't know if you're happy?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
I'm here to tell you how to be happier, not happy.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Because I don't know what being happy is or means in the sense that I don't think there is a binary zero-one. "Okay, so yesterday I was unhappy. Today I am, I'm happy." Rather than a binary zero-one...It is a continuum. So I can certainly tell you that I'm a lot happier today than I was 30 years ago.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
But I hope that five years from now, I'll be happier than I am today. And that-
- MRMel Robbins
How will you know?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
How do I know that I will be happier? Or how do I know how to measure that I'm-
- MRMel Robbins
Both.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Both.
- MRMel Robbins
Uh, uh, h- how, l- like, I know this is a-
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... kind of a basic question, but happiness eludes so many people. There are so many people that write in about feeling stuck or-
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... a lack of purpose or devastated with grief, that I know when you look in the rear view mirror, you can say-
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... "Oh, I'm happier than I was 10 years ago." I feel, in your definition that you've presented to us that you really like, a sense of wholeness, right? A- a- an access to it. But for somebody that really feels like, whether it's because of depression or they're just been miserable their whole life-
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... or their life has been really hard.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Yeah. So I would go for, uh, you know, small changes.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
You know, the Kaizen change that the Japanese
- 25:47 – 32:12
Try one of these 5 one-minute activities when you’re feeling depressed.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
talk about, which is, "How can I become 1% happier?" Not, "How can I become happy?" Not, "How can I, you know, find, you know, the, uh, the, um, the answer?" Just, "How can I become 1% happier?" And then, if you look at, ask this question and look at the five SPIRE elements-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
... and you can look at all five and you could look at one of them. How can I introduce a small change? Experiment with a small truth and then see how that works. And then, if it does, great, do more of it. If it doesn't, try something else. But the key is to continue moving, because as we know, one of the- the major characteristics of depression is, uh, helplessness, which means doing nothing.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm. Mm-hmm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
So counter that with doing something. And again, that something doesn't have to be major. You know, one of the things that I'm, um, working on a lot now is how small changes can make a big difference-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
... when consistently applied.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
And I know that you are, uh, you know, you know, doing work in that area as well, when you talk about, you know, take that one minute to, uh, to breathe. And those small changes make a big difference. And, you know, I've- I've coined, uh, a term. So I don't know if you're familiar with, um, the term MVP, not from sports, from, um, from, uh, business. MVP, minimum viable product.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Now, this is something a company, you know, brings out as sort of a beta version, a test case, and, um, you know, it's not perfect, it's not ready, it's not ideal, but it's good enough. So based on this MVP, minimum viable product idea, I coined the term MVI, minimum viable intervention.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Minimum viable intervention, these are the small changes that you can introduce that actually make a difference over time. And this is what I would urge, the MVIs, is what I would urge that someone who's feeling stuck or down, or someone who just lacks motivation-
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
... introduces in their lives.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
What are these MVIs?
- MRMel Robbins
Tell me.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
For example, um, you know what? Actually, let me go over the SPIRE elements and- and provide an MVI for each one-
- MRMel Robbins
Ooh, I love you. Yes.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
... of them. All right. So spiritual wellbeing. Spiritual wellbeing is about purpose and presence.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Let's say we, for, uh, one minute, breathe deeply, focusing on the air going in and out. That's meditation. You know, it's not 30 minutes, but it's one minute. And we know, and there's a lot of research showing that, that one minute can make a huge difference. You know, there are so many things we can do in one minute while being present, and that will enhance, and we know that, and there's a lot o- lot of data on this, will enhance your spiritual wellbeing as well as your physical wellbeing. But let's g- Let- let's move to the P of SPIRE for a second.
- MRMel Robbins
Please.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
So, um, going to the gym, working out for an hour, great. You know, doing high-intensity interval training for 15 minutes, amazing.
- MRMel Robbins
Sounds horrible, honestly. (laughs)
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
(laughs) But you will become happier as a result-
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
... subsequently. But what about taking 30 seconds or 45 seconds for a burst of energy, running on the spot or doing your push-ups or sit-ups? 45 seconds, that's all. Now, we know, again, there is research on it showing that if you do it three times during the day, you will actually, um, y- have the equivalent of a workout. So it doesn't have to be all at once, meaning you can do it, you know, now for 45 seconds, and then in two hours, another 45 second climbing up and down the stairs, which you can do in the office. You know, you don't sweat, you don't need to, you know, shower after. And then five hours later, you do it again when you- when- when you get home. 45 seconds, minimum viable intervention. It's cumulative.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- 32:12 – 34:58
How can you be happier if you feel lonely?
- MRMel Robbins
m- your relationships and wellbeing in that area, um, what does the research say in terms of how many friends?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
Is it deep? Is it tons? Like, for somebody that's just feeling isolated and lonely or that sense like, "Where are all my friends?" and feels disconnection, what does the research say-
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... in terms of happiness?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Number one predictor of happiness is quality time we spend with people we care about and who care about us. Now, we also know that, um, the number one predictor of unhappiness in our world today is loneliness.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
And this, um, was, uh, exacerbated as a result of COVID, of course, because what loneliness does is it very often gets us into this downward spiral where I feel lonely and I feel, you know, incompetent in the social realm. And what we need to do in order to get out of it is get out of it. There has to be focused action and intention, in other words, single-tasking rather than multitasking, because one of the main causes of loneliness is not the fact that we're not around people.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
It's the fact that when we're around people, we're also doing 20 other things.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
You know, Daniel Goleman calls our age the age of distraction.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
So, you know, if I'm with friends but at the same time I'm texting and doing something else and they're doing, we're not really together.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
You know, it's, um- i- th- the, the example that I like, so imagine, imagine you're listening to your favorite piece of music, and, um, can I share with you what mine is?
- MRMel Robbins
Absolutely.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
All right. Don't tell anyone though.
- MRMel Robbins
Drake?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
No.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Close. Whitney Houston, And I Will Always Love You.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh my God.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
My favorite song-
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs) Okay.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
... of all time. So, imagine you're listening to that or whatever your favorite is.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
And, you know, you close your eyes, you focus, and you rate it on a scale of one to 10. You know, it's your favorite, a 10.
- MRMel Robbins
It's a 10.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
And then you listen to your second-most favorite, and you know my second-most favorite is, uh, Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. Ba-ba-ba-bum. You listen to that, and you rate it on a scale of one to 10, and you know it's not quite Whitney Houston, but he's pretty good. It's a nine and a half.
- 34:58 – 40:55
Research finds doing this for just 2 minutes makes you happier and healthier.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
and you can't do it all. Well, y- you can do a lot, but you certainly can't enjoy it all.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
And much of our sense of loneliness comes because when we're with other people, we're not really with other people. And what we need to do is put down a s- uh, put time aside. And it doesn't have to be seven hours, you know, even if it's an hour twice a week or that text that you commit yourself to mindfully. These small, committed, focused activities can get us out of the sense of loneliness or unhappiness.
- MRMel Robbins
Beautiful. Beautiful. What a beautiful metaphor. It makes so much sense.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
And finally, emotional wellbeing, that's about, you know, the gratitude journal. Take a minute to write three things that you're grateful for. You know, close your eyes and savor, savor what, what you have, uh, right now. Or write a journal about what's hurting you for two minutes. There's research-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
... showing that even two-minute journaling, whether it's about difficult experiences or about ecstatic experiences, two minutes actually make us happier and healthier. Better to write it in a journal or to talk about it than to just ruminate over it.
- MRMel Robbins
Why? Why is it better to write in a journal than to talk about it?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Okay. So, so, so here I'm drawing on research by Sonja Lyubomirsky, who's a professor at UC Riverside, and what she shows is that when we are dealing with, um, uh, painful emotions-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
... or difficult experiences, we can either talk about it, write about it, or think about it. People who think about it, it actually gets worse. We ruminate. We go down the rabbit hole, downward spiral.And we can stay there for, for hours or sometimes weeks.
- MRMel Robbins
Or decades, in some people, right?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
(laughs) E- exactly. Whereas if we write about it or talk about it, there's a much higher likelihood that we'll emerge stronger. Why? Because what we're doing when we're writing and talking about it, we're actually making sense of it. You know, so often, and you know, this is work on journaling, Jamie Pennebaker and others, showing that when we write about something, very often we reach a aha moment or, "Oh, now I see what- what- what's happening," or, "Now I see what I need to do." And then it becomes more manageable. It becomes more coherent, more clear, and we're ready to move on, and we know what we ought to do. So writing and talking about it rather than ruminating about it is very important. And then after we have, uh, written about, talked about it, just do it. What is it? It could be an MVI, a minimum viable intervention.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
It could be, you know, go to the gym. I- i- doing it could be, you know, go out with friends, even if you don't really feel like it, but keep on experimenting with truths rather than sitting down and trying to figure out the meaning of life or, or the- the- the ultimate answer to the universe.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, I have something to share that, um, happened with my sister-in-law, business partner, and friend, Christine. She had been, uh, somebody that really loved going to church, and then like many of us, life gets busy with your kids, especially if they're in these sports teams and everything else, and something happened at the church. And so they kind of stopped going, and for a number of years, she thought about it and thought about it and thought about it. And recently, let's talk MVI, a minimum viable intervention, she just got up off her rear end. She didn't wait for her husband and sons to go with her, and she just, one Sunday went back to one service. And I will tell you that there is something, if we go back to the rainbow analogy, and you think about happiness being an indirect thing in your life that you feel in multiple ways, that one small action of no longer thinking about it but going back-
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Exactly.
- MRMel Robbins
... it has created more... It's almost like if, if you think about a rainbow, there is a hue there, there's a vibrancy there. And I love this word wholeness, because it is part of her wellbeing to have a spiritual practice.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And it does create a vibrancy and a wholeness in that area of her life. It is one simple change. It is an hour every week. She... It is not dependent on anybody else in her family doing it. And to me, that is a very clear example of what you're talking about in terms of how it relates to these five elements of happiness and how you can just, in very small ways, experience what you're talking about.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, so I love that story, and I love it because of what you brought up saying that it's one small action. Experiment with these small truths.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, I'm wondering, as one of the world's most respected and leading experts on happiness, what do you do every day to be happier?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Mm-hmm. Um, you know, I do the basics. Uh, I wake up in the morning and I do my meditation.
- MRMel Robbins
Now, do you lay in bed? Do you get up?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
No.
- MRMel Robbins
Do you... Like, do you... How do you do your meditation?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Yeah and no, I l- I l- I lay in bed. And again, I'm a morning-
- MRMel Robbins
Is that technically, like, just sort of snoozing? Like, what are you doing? Like, you literally are like-
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... you wake up and then you meditate while you lie there?
- 40:55 – 43:07
What does a morning look like for a happiness researcher?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
But meditation is, uh, is where I start. And then, um, I read, and I, and I... I love reading in bed, and I read quality stuff. I don't look at the news. Uh, that's very important.
- MRMel Robbins
You're not looking at TMZ on your phone? (laughs)
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
No. (laughs) No.
- MRMel Robbins
No? (laughs) I'm just kidding.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Yeah. Th- th- that, yes, but not the other news. Um, so, uh, so I do quality stuff in the morning. Then, you know, I'm... I, I'm- I'm responsible for taking the kids to, uh, to s- to school. Um-
- MRMel Robbins
I love that.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Yeah. And then I-
- MRMel Robbins
They might... I bet they love that too.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Uh, they do, and, and I do, and, and, and alwa- ... And we have a sort of a, a ritual around, uh, aro- around that, you know, where, where, where we, where we talk and then they ask me, "Okay, Dad, one message for the day." And it could be something like, um, "Be generous, be kind," or, "Appreciate," or whatev- whatever it is, and they go with it and, and they also share it with their friends. Uh-
- MRMel Robbins
That's pretty cool.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Yeah. So, so we have that, and then, and then I go home, and I... and, and I work. Mornings are my, my productive hours. And then I do yoga in the, in the afternoon, um, almost every day, you know, have, uh, have lunch with, uh, with my wife and, um, and then sometimes work in the afternoon, you know, do sports. I do a lot of sports, you know, play s-
- MRMel Robbins
Do you still play squash?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
I play squash. I h- I didn't play squash for 25 years, and I always said, "If one of my kids plays, then I'll take it up again." And our little one, our 14-year-old plays squash, so I play with him.
- MRMel Robbins
I bet you're a monster on the pickleball court.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
I've never played pickleball-
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, I bet you would destroy it.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
... but I want to. I want to. So you just... Yeah. Yeah. And, um, so yeah, and then, you know, I, I love movies. I love, you know, reading, hanging out with friends, uh, family.
- MRMel Robbins
I want to reflect on something, because what you're describing sounds like a happy life.And if you're not watching this on YouTube, you can probably hear in Tal's voice that he's smiling as he's reflecting on this. And it is true that so many of us make ourselves
- 43:07 – 46:43
One essential truth to know about happiness.
- MRMel Robbins
unhappy because we think that the answer to it is something out there-
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... that national championship, the getting into the right school, the right grades, the right this, the right that, and what you just described is the little things you do every day that make you feel whole.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Mm-hmm. There's something very important, Mel, that I want to add. You know, it may sound, you know, fairytale, "Oh, he's always happy and always smiling." Far from it. I have my bad day-
- MRMel Robbins
Well, I asked your kids, they said some days you're a real jerk. (laughs)
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs) I'm just kidding.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
They don't say, they don't say jerk, but they say, "Daddy, chill."
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah, chill. (laughs)
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Chill, yeah. Um, and, um, and- and- and it's- it's important to- to understand, you know, not every morning when I get up I wa- I want to write. You know, some mornings I get up and I want to stay in bed and do nothing. What is most important is what we do rather than what we feel. You know, I do what I, what I do, whether it's the yoga, whether it's the writing, whether it's spending time with- with family and friends, I do it even if I don't feel like it. And over time, what we do affects us, it also affects our feelings.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, Tal, when I was researching, uh, your work to get ready for this conversation today, I came across a video that you did that has seven million views where you say, "Stop chasing happiness," and you want us to focus on something else instead. I'm gonna ask you to tell us what we're supposed to be focused on after a short word from our sponsors, so stay with us, you'll be happy you did. Hey, it's your buddy Mel, and I made this video because I am constantly asked by fans of the Mel Robbins podcast, "Mel, how can, how can I work with you? Mel, like how can I get more support from you?" And there's one way you can do that. Once a year, I offer a six-month-long program called Launch. I lead it, I designed it, it is extraordinary, and it is open for registration right now. I am not doing this again until 2025. I am leading the trainings, I put you through a six-month experience where you get to pick a project in your personal, your professional, your business life, and for six months, you are in a coaching container led by me where you get the structure, the accountability, the research-backed tools that you need in order to take something from here to real life. This is your chance. Registration is open. Go to melrobbins.com/launch to get all the details and see if it's for you. And if it's for you, get yourself in this. You deserve it, and you're gonna shock yourself by what you create when you have the support from Mel Robbins that you deserve. (instrumental music plays) Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. I'm so happy you're here with me today, because we are getting to spend time with Tal Ben-Shahar. He's one of the most respected and prolific experts on happiness in the world, and he is the most popular professor to ever teach at Harvard. He taught positive psychology. And we're digging into 30 years of research and what research says about how you can be happier. We've already covered the definition of happiness as this sense of wholeness, we've talked about the five elements of happiness, he's made it very clear that this is not about checking boxes, it's not about achieving goals, it's about pursuing small, 1% changes in these five areas of your life. And one of the most popular things you've ever put out online, has seven million views in less than a year, don't chase happiness, become antifragile. What- what does antifragile mean?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Yeah, you know, that's one of those concepts that really
- 46:43 – 52:21
What does it mean to be “anti-fragile?”
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
made a difference in my life. It's, uh, it's an idea that I read about through the work of Nassim Taleb, who's a professor at, uh, New York University. And what is antifragility? The opposite of fragility, or I've come to look at it as resilience 2.0.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
So let's begin with 1.0.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Resilience-
- MRMel Robbins
Please. (laughs)
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
(laughs) Resilience 1.0 is actually a term that comes from engineering. It simply means that-
- MRMel Robbins
Resilience 1.0 comes from engineering?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Resilience as a term comes from engineering.
- MRMel Robbins
See, that computer science, the classes you took, they helped.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Stands him in good stead.
- MRMel Robbins
There you go.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Absolutely. (laughs) So what- what- what it means is that if you have certain material and you put pressure on it-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
... if it's resilient, it goes back to its original form.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Uh, you squish, you know, a piece of, uh, rubber, resilient, it returns to where it was before.
- MRMel Robbins
Yep.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
A ball, you drop it, if it's resilient, it bounces back up to where it was before. So that's 1.0. What's resilience 2.0, or antifragility? You take material, you put pressure and stress on it. As a result of the pressure and stress, it actually grows stronger, bigger, healthier. Or you drop a ball, resilience 1.0 it simply bounces back, 2.0, antifragility, it bounces back higher-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
... as a result. So that's antifragility, and it turns out that there are antifragile systems all around us and within us. I mean, think about it, for example, our muscular system. You go to the gym-
- MRMel Robbins
It's true.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
... you're putting stress on your muscles. What happens as a result of it? If you persist, you actually grow stronger, bigger, healthier as a result of that stress. We're antifragile systems, not just physiologically, also psychologically, and that's important. You know, I- m- most of the students in my class, not all, but most of them were psychology majors. And I would always ask them two questions. The first question was, "Put your hand up if you know what PTSD is." Just about everyone in the class put their hand up, they've heard of post-traumatic stress disorder, they've read about it, studied it in psych one, newspaper.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
People know what it is. Then I said, "Okay, put your hands down, and now put your hands up if you've heard of the term PTG."Hardly anyone put their hand up. And again, these are psychology majors. PTG stands for post-traumatic growth. So, whereas PTSD is breaking down-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
... being fragile, PTG, post-traumatic growth, is being anti-fragile, growing as a result of trauma or hardship or difficulty.
- MRMel Robbins
How do you do that?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
So here is the thing. This is, this amazed me about the rese- and there's a lot of research by Tedeschi, Calhoun, and others. Merely knowing about the existence of PTG, of post-traumatic growth, of anti-fragility, actually makes it more likely to happen.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow.
- 52:21 – 55:26
How to have more hope when you’re going through a hard time.
- MRMel Robbins
that is what allows you to grow through it. And you're here to say that no matter what the traumatic experience, or the heaviness of the emotion, or the very real life experience that you may be living through right now, that just like a sun can shine through a prism and cast a rainbow, so too hope can shine through this experience, and you can grow stronger. And even just knowing that, in your definition of being a whole human being who takes care of self, that hope is a critical ingredient to you getting better. That's... Is that what you're saying?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Absolutely, and it's a critical period for you as an individual getting better. It's a critical element of a relationship, as you pointed out. It's also a critical element of national growth.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes, that's exactly what happened. I realize I didn't complete the whole thing, is that in working through it, and having the really hard conversations, and, and really exploring ourselves, and sticking through the very hard, painful times, I have a profound sense of, in your definition that you are giving us, Tal, a sense of wholeness in the relationship, and also a sense of wholeness with self. And it's true. If you really are listening to what Tal's saying, and you reflect on your own life, and you think about any moment in your life that was crazy painful, notice whether or not, as you moved through it, and you really are honest with yourself, that there was that bounce-up effect that happens after it. As you move through the grief, or the disappointment, or the heartbreak, that all of a sudden you wake up one day, and you weren't staring at the sun directly going, "I'm gonna be happy now." You were just slowly working on your wellbeing, and you felt different. And it- it... As I really listen closely to what you're teaching us, I think that's what I'm starting to take away.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Mm-hmm. And, and I will add to that. And, and, you know, you mentioned earlier about how knowing that you can grow from it-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
... contributes to your, uh, to your wellbeing. Just knowing that a gridlock or hardships, these are all natural parts of our evolution of life, you know. No, no one is exempt from these. No relationship, it could be the best, you know, fairy tale relationship. They'll have their gridlocks. Just knowing that it's a natural part of a relationship, that is, uh, you know, uplifting, because it's liberating.... because you're saying, "Oh, okay, it's normal." And that's exactly what I felt after reading Schnarch, and going through a gridlock with my amazing wife, saying, "Okay, so, so, so it's fine. That too shall pass." And that's what gives hope.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- 55:26 – 1:04:43
The key to systems thinking and why it matters.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
And that is what becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, because through that hope, you actually grow within the relationship or in another context.
- MRMel Robbins
It's so true. You know, with the 30 years that you have spent researching this topic, is there anything that bubbles up from the research that is top predictors of whether or not you're going to have that sense of wholeness and happiness in your life?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Um, the number one would be the belief that you can make a difference. You know, ma- many people ask me, um, "So w- what is the, uh, the content of, uh, the, the course?" You know, whether it's the, the, the MA or the certificate program, and they're always surprised that I say that at the beginning we start learning about systems thinking.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, really?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
And, yeah, and systems thinking, you know, you, you know-
- MRMel Robbins
For somebody who has no idea what that is, what the hell-
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... is systems thinking? No seriously-
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
So-
- MRMel Robbins
... like, for somebody who's-
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... like, "What's systems thinking?"
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Yeah, so, so systems thinking is, um, about looking at things as wholes. So looking at the system rather than the symptom.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
So looking at the system, whether it's, uh, an organization is a system.
- MRMel Robbins
Yep.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
The human body is a system. It's a system of, you know, cells and organs. Um, a system is all about interconnectedness.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
And the key in a system is to find leverage points.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Where do I press? Where do I touch to affect the entire system? You know, it's what Charles Duhigg talks about, you know, keystone habits.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah, yeah.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
What is that place, one thing that if you do will, will impact another part of the system, and another part? Is it exercising daily? Is it, you know, starting your day, you know, zone one of the day with, uh, deep breaths-
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
... and meditation? Is it, um, you know, leaving home and, you know, hugging your, your, your loved one? What is that one thing? And when everything is interconnected, it actually doesn't matter that much where you enter the system, because it will affect everyone else. This is why the emphasis on that one small action is so critical, because you can literally sit down and think for years about how I'm gonna change my life, or you can just do it.
- MRMel Robbins
You know what is so cool about this, is that visually speaking, between the rainbow example and this idea of systems and wholeness and everything being interconnected, in this model, traumatic experiences are connected to happiness. Sadness and grief are connected to happiness. Struggles and periods of feeling lost are profoundly connected to happiness. Why?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Painful experiences, difficult experiences are inevitable.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Again, there is no life exempting. But let- let's play a, a game.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- 1:04:43 – 1:06:07
What does the research say about LASTING change?
- MRMel Robbins
you for sharing that. Like, I, I was trying to put myself in your shoes, because I think in the depths of that moment, I'd probably be like, "Fuck you. You know, I don't want to hear that. I'm not getting over this." (laughs) You know what I'm saying? But it, it is true that we do get through the things that we never think that it's possible to get through. I'm also really curious, since you're constantly researching something, and clearly writing a book, and you've got an academy, and you're teaching people around the world, is there a particular piece of research or new kind of finding around happiness that really excites you?
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Mm-hmm. So, what I think about a lot is, how do you bring about lasting change?
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Because, you know, people are listening to us now, and they're thinking, "Oh, yeah, you know, I want to do it," or, you know, "I would give a lecture," and, you know, the audience would think, "Yeah, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm gonna implement it." But most times, nothing happens.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Most change efforts, you know, y- you talk about it, you know, coming into 2024. So, you have a, a goal, and, you know, a 30-day challenge-
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
... you know, in January, February. What happens with that? Usually not much.
- MRMel Robbins
Yep.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
So, what I think about constantly, and what I'm researching is, how can you increase the likelihood, not guarantee, but increase the likelihood that you will enjoy lasting change? And, um,
- 1:06:07 – 1:10:07
The 3 Rs of Change that should be at the core of all habit changes.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
you know, I love acronyms, as you figured out, you know, the SPIRE, MVI. So, here's a third acronym.
- MRMel Robbins
Give it to us.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
The three Rs of change.
- MRMel Robbins
The three Rs, okay.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Okay.
- MRMel Robbins
And we can use this with everything that you've taught us today, in terms of making ha- being happier a lasting change in your life.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
E- exactly.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
So, that's why the three R- that, that's why it's so important for me to, to think about it, write about it, talk about it. The three Rs of change are essentially the, um, you know, should be the intel inside, so to speak, of every, uh, change effort.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
So, what are they? It's not reading, writing, and arithmetic, other three Rs. It's, the first R is reminder. I mean, think about it, Mel. So, if I asked you this, um, "Tell me, is it important for you to, um, appreciate the good people in your life? Um, to, uh, to appreciate whatever works in your life? Or do you prefer to take it all for granted?"
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs) Appreciated.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Exactly, exactly. So, you know, no one would say, "You know, I've had enough of appreciating my loved ones. It's time to take them for granted for a, for a while."
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
No one would say that.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs) Except for my husband in therapy. (laughs)
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
That too shall pass. So, and yet, and yet, even though everyone would say it's important for me to appreciate, most people, this is an empirical fact, most people, most of the time, take the good things in their lives for granted.
- MRMel Robbins
True.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Do not appreciate their loved ones, most of the time.
- MRMel Robbins
True.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Most people, most of the time. Now, it's not because they are bad people. It's not because they are not smart. It's not because they don't have the desire to appreciate. All these things are in place. The problem is that we forget.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Which is why the first antidote to forgetfulness, or the first antidote to the absence of change, is reminders.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
And Mel, you talk about it, you talk about your Post-its.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
I love that. Create reminders around you, whether it's Post-its, whether it's, um, you know, walking around with a, with a bracelet that reminds you of so- of something specific.
- MRMel Robbins
Or a rainbow. Like I keep thinking about how much you've poured into us and how actionable everything is, and understandable, that even if you were to write on a Post-it "spire," and it's a reminder of the five elements every morning, and you pop it on your mirror at your computer at work.
- 1:10:07 – 1:14:54
Two essays that Dr. Beh-Shahar recommends if you want to be happier.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
them. Now, to many people, this, this sounds like, you know, the absence of spontaneity, you know, if you ritualize things. I'm not against spontaneity. It's great. But if you want to bring about lasting change, the only reliable way that we know about is by cultivating rituals, and you do that through reminders and repetition.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, and there's a fourth R-
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Do tell.
- MRMel Robbins
... which is the fact that it's not about the fact that you're removing spontaneity. You're removing something else, your resistance-
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... to doing something new, and if I bring this full circle to, um, the topic of being a happier you, and the fact that in your definition of wholeness and the five elements of happiness which all tie to wellbeing, that you could apply the reminder, the repetition over and over and over in each of those five elements, going to church or to temple or to mosque, or if your church version is taking a walk in the woods, making that something that you repeat so that it becomes a ritual, that these things, and I, I, I'm, I'm sus- I'm, I'm suspecting that this is why you are an unwavering optimist in people's ability, absolutely anyone's ability, to be happier.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Mm-hmm. You know, Helen Keller, who's one of my teachers, has an essay on optimism, which I highly recommend, uh, that, that, that you read. And, um, in it she says, "My religion is optimism." And she says, "I look around," metaphorically, "I look around the world, and, um, and what I see is a lot of hardship and difficulty. What I also see is the overcoming-"
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
"... of it." And she was a consummate optimist. I mean, how could she have not been, you know, given the hand that she was, uh, dealt? And she still lived a, a happy life, a full and fulfilling life. And I think there is a very important lesson that we can, uh, learn from her. And if I may, I just want to recommend something else by Helen Keller.
- MRMel Robbins
Please.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
So the essay on optimism, the second one is an essay that she wrote called Three Days to See. In it, she reflects on what she would do if, you know, having been, um, blind and deaf for most of her life, what would she do if she were to regain her hearing or vision? What would she do, for three days? And she talks about it, and she talks about how important it is to appreciate, not take for granted, the things that we have, and I have Helen Keller's essay next to me as a reminder, a reminder, A, to appreciate, and as a reminder, uh, of the religion of optimism.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow. Wow. Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar, thank you, thank you, thank you. You made a huge difference in my life, and I know that you just made an enormous difference in s- helping people around the world be happier.
- TBTal Ben-Shahar
Thank you, Mel, and what I'm most grateful for in terms of your work is that you create a bridge between evidence-based, uh, academic ideas and you make them accessible.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, that's a massive compliment coming from you. I accept that. Thank you. Thank you. And for you listening, I just wanted to be sure in case nobody else tells you that I tell you that I love you and I believe in you, and I know I speak for both of us when I say we believe in your ability to take action and do the little things every single day that will bring more happiness into your life. Now go do it. I'll talk to you in a few days. (instrumental music) Don't you love him? I love you. Thank you, thank you, thank you for being here with us and me on YouTube. It makes me so happy that you're here. It also makes me happy that you share what you're learning, so thank you for sharing this episode. Thank you for subscribing. It just takes a second. It's a small thing you can do to support me in bringing you this amazing content. And I know what you're thinking now, “Mel, what do I watch next?” Well, you're gonna wanna watch this. This is an episode that we did about the formula for happiness, and it's with Shawn Achor, and what's super cool about this is that he was a student of Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar. How cool is that? Check it out.
Episode duration: 1:14:59
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