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The Mel Robbins PodcastThe Mel Robbins Podcast

How to Create a Successful Mindset: The Science of Passion and Perseverance

Order your copy of The Let Them Theory 👉 https://melrob.co/let-them-theory 👈 The #1 Best Selling Book of 2025 🔥 Discover how much power you truly have. It all begins with two simple words. Let Them. — What if the one thing that matters most for your success isn’t talent, luck, or intelligence, but something you can build starting today? In this eye-opening conversation, renowned psychologist Dr. Angela Duckworth joins Mel to reveal the real science of success and what drives achievement – and it’s not what you’ve been told. You’ll learn why grit – the combination of passion and perseverance – matters more than talent, intelligence, or motivation alone. And today, you’ll learn exactly how to build it. Dr. Duckworth is a pioneering researcher in psychology, professor at The University of Pennsylvania, a MacArthur “Genius” Grant winner, and author of the #1 New York Times bestseller Grit, which has changed the way millions of people understand success. In this powerful, research-backed conversation, she unpacks the truth about what it really takes to succeed and how you and your family can tap into this research in your daily life. You’ll learn: -The four traits gritty people have (and how to build them) -Why most people quit too soon and how to stay motivated -How to develop a growth mindset at any age -What elite performers know about discipline that you don’t -Why your environment is quietly shaping your success Success isn’t reserved for the gifted, it’s built by those who refuse to give up. If you’re feeling stuck, unmotivated, or ready to give up, don’t. Not before you hear this. Because grit can be learned. And this episode shows you how. For more resources related to today’s episode, click here for the podcast episode page: https://www.melrobbins.com/episode/episode-333/ Follow The Mel Robbins Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/themelrobbinspodcast I’m just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is NOT intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I’ll see you in the next episode. In this episode: 00:00 Meet the Guest 05:43 Rewire Your Brain for Success 13:30 Inside the Mind of Top Performers 17:15 The Truth About Talent and Why It’s Not Enough 23:03 How to Figure Out What You’re Interested In 43:15 Why You’re Not Getting Better (Even Though You’re Trying) 01:00:58 The Step by Step Guide to Finding Your Passion 01:15:17 How to Achieve Your Most Ambitious Goals 01:25:02 How to Stop Letting Your Phone Run Your Life — Follow Mel: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melrobbins/ TikTok: http://tiktok.com/@melrobbins Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melrobbins LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melrobbins Website: http://melrobbins.com​ — Sign up for Mel’s newsletter: https://melrob.co/sign-up-newsletter A note from Mel to you, twice a week, sharing simple, practical ways to build the life you want. — Subscribe to Mel’s channel here: https://www.youtube.com/melrobbins​?sub_confirmation=1 — Listen to The Mel Robbins Podcast 🎧 New episodes drop every Monday & Thursday! https://melrob.co/spotify https://melrob.co/applepodcasts https://melrob.co/amazonmusic — Looking for Mel’s books on Amazon? Find them here: The Let Them Theory: https://amzn.to/3IQ21Oe The Let Them Theory Audiobook: https://amzn.to/413SObp The High 5 Habit: https://amzn.to/3fMvfPQ The 5 Second Rule: https://amzn.to/4l54fah

Mel RobbinshostDr. Angela Duckworthguest
Oct 13, 20251h 31mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 5:43

    Meet the Guest

    1. MR

      ... to the person who's listening right now. What could change about their life, or the life of somebody that they care about, if they take to heart everything that you're about to share with us today?

    2. AD

      If you take to heart what we have discovered, you will have one thing, which is the possibility of glimpsing excellence in your own life.

    3. MR

      Today on The Mel Robbins Podcast, how to create a successful mindset with world-renowned researcher, Dr. Angela Duckworth. Dr. Angela Duckworth is a pioneering researcher, a best-selling author, and a total powerhouse in the field of human performance. Get ready to learn the science of grit, perseverance, and passion.

    4. AD

      Grit is passion and perseverance for long-term goals. It is correlated zero with any measure of innate talent. Grit is working hard at something that you love. Doing something that you love and doing it at your greatest effort every single day, that is what grit is.

    5. MR

      If you're listening and there's an area of your life where you have basically said, "I've missed the window," or, "I'm too late," or, "I'm not capable of that," Professor Duckworth is gonna tell you you're wrong.

    6. AD

      It is the nature of human nature to grow. It is the nature of human nature to make mistakes, royally screw up, have a lot of regrets, and be smarter and stronger for the experience. Hope is the belief that the future can be better than the past, and it is the belief that you can h- in some way make that come to pass.

    7. MR

      Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to The Mel Robbins Podcast. Hey, it's Mel. My team was showing me that 57% of you who watch here on YouTube are not subscribed yet. Could you do me a quick favor? Hit subscribe. It's free. And that way, you don't miss any of the episodes that I post here on YouTube. It also lets me know that you're enjoying the guests and you love the content that I'm bringing you, because I wanna make sure you don't miss anything. So thank you, thank you, thank you for hitting subscribe. All right, you ready? I bet you are. So let's dive in. Angela Duckworth. Thank you, thank you, thank you for being here. I'm so excited to meet you.

    8. AD

      Mel, I think I might be more excited than you actually. No, I'm, I'm really thrilled. I feel like we have a similar mission. Like, a little bit of wisdom, make your life a lot better.

    9. MR

      Yes.

    10. AD

      Yeah.

    11. MR

      Yes. Well, your research has had a huge impact on my life, and your work has as well. So here's how I wanna start. Could you speak directly to the person who's listening right now, who has found the time and made the time to spend it together with you and me today to learn from you? What could change about their life, or the life of somebody that they care about, if they take to heart everything that you're about to share with us today?

    12. AD

      If you take to heart what we have discovered as a science about motivation and achievement, you will have one thing, which is the possibility of glimpsing excellence in your own life, to achieve what you are capable of achieving.

    13. MR

      That's a big promise.

    14. AD

      It is. You know, hunt the big game.

    15. MR

      (laughs)

    16. AD

      (laughs) Like, yeah. I, I really truly believe it. I think that when I first started as a psychologist, the question was, "You know, am I only gonna study this, like, tiny little sliver of the population who would self-identify as super ambitious?"

    17. MR

      Mm.

    18. AD

      And I discovered very quickly that everybody's ambitious. I mean, who doesn't want to be as great as they can be? So I study, I think, everyone.

    19. MR

      I love that answer. I love that answer because I choose to believe that everybody wants to do well-

    20. AD

      I-

    21. MR

      ... that everybody wants to thrive, you know? So Dr. Duckworth, your research is so fascinating because you have discovered this thing that all high achievers have in common. What is it?

    22. AD

      The common denominator of high achievers, no matter what they're achieving, is this special combination of passion and perseverance for really long-term goals, and in a word, it's grit.

    23. MR

      And how do you define grit?

    24. AD

      It's exactly that. It's these two parts, right, passion for long-term goals, like loving something and staying in love with it, not kind of wandering off and doing, you know, something else, and then something else again, and then something else again, but having a, a kind of North Star, sort of, you know, a devotion over years. That's the passion part. And then the perseverance part is, well, partly it's hard work, right? Partly it's, you know, practicing what you can't yet do, and- and partly it's resilience. So part of perseverance is, you know, on the really bad days, do you, you know, do you get up again? So- so if you marry passion for long-term goals with perseverance for long-term goals, well, then you have this quality that I find to be the common denominator of elite achievers in every field that I've studied.

    25. MR

      So is this just something you're born with, or is this an actual trait that anybody can develop?

    26. AD

      I think that absolutely anything that any psychologist tells you is a good thing to have is partly under your control. I am not saying there aren't genes that are at play, because every psychologist will tell you that that's also part of the story for- for everything, and grit included. But- but absolutely, you know, how gritty we are is very much a function of what we know, who we're around, and the places we go.

    27. MR

      I love that you already taught us something right out of the gate. I knew you would.

    28. AD

      (laughs)

    29. MR

      There's gonna be a bazillion takeaways, but just this sense that it's something that you actually really enjoy

  2. 5:43 – 13:30

    Rewire Your Brain for Success

    1. MR

      doing, and that even that aspect of grit is something that you have a lot to teach us about, that even those of us that feel like we haven't found our thing, that we're not quite sure what we should be doing with our lives, that it is... there's very clear ways to figure it out, and that's part of the equation that we're gonna learn today. You know, also in your work, you talk a lot about, and I'm sure we're gonna hear the term growth mindset.

    2. AD

      Mm-hmm.

    3. MR

      You know, in case the person who's listening right now has never heard that term or they're gonna share this episode with somebody who's never heard that term, what is it and why does it matter?

    4. AD

      Growth mindset is a theory.

    5. MR

      Okay.

    6. AD

      It's a, it's a theory that you have. You know, you don't have to be a philosopher or professor to have a theory, 'cause guess what? All of us have theories, you know? Theories about people. Growth mindset is a theory about human ability. If you have a growth mindset, your theory is that human ability fundamentally is changeable. If you have a fixed mindset, you have a different theory. It is a belief that fundamentally, human ability is fixed. It is something that you can't change with effort and experience. If you believe fundamentally that human ability can change and grow, you look at that failure, you look at that setback, and you say, "What can I learn here? How can I get smarter?" And then you move on. If you have a fixed mindset, fundamentally, you think that the nature of human nature is that you can't change or grow. Well, then you avoid failure, you, you know, shove things under the rug, and you live your whole life actually contracting rather than expanding.

    7. MR

      Mm. Wow. So for the person listening, because I, I think when you hear growth mindset and you hear fixed mindset, so I either have this fixed belief that I am who I am and there's nothing I can do to change. If I'm terrible with money, I'm always gonna be terrible with money.

    8. AD

      I'm not a math person.

    9. MR

      Yes.

    10. AD

      You know, you know, uh, like hide me in the closet, I'm a terrible-

    11. MR

      Yes.

    12. AD

      ... singer.

    13. MR

      Yes. Or I'm not lu-

    14. AD

      Yeah, I'm not a natural athlete.

    15. MR

      Yeah, I'm not a natural athlete.

    16. AD

      Yeah.

    17. MR

      I'm unlucky in love.

    18. AD

      Yeah. Yeah.

    19. MR

      Like I, I have a slow metabolism.

    20. AD

      Yeah.

    21. MR

      I have all these-

    22. AD

      I have a hot temper. It's just who I am.

    23. MR

      Correct.

    24. AD

      Yeah.

    25. MR

      When you say those kinds of blanket statements, it develops this fixed mindset that you're just stuck as you are, and what you're here to say is, no, no, no, no, no. That you are capable of changing, and a lot of what can help you change are the things that we're gonna talk about today that you've discovered in your research. But first, you, you have to entertain the possibility that change is possible for you even though you may have a lot of evidence when you look in the rear view mirror and say, "Well, based on my life history, that's not true for me." So what do you want to say to that person who's like, "Well, I'm not ... I, I, I don't think I can change. It's too late."?

    26. AD

      You can find the evidence that you look for. It's what psychologists call self-fulfilling prophecy, and mindsets are absolutely this sort of thing. If you are looking for evidence that you can't change, if you are looking for evidence that you're unlucky in love, that you, you know, will always be flying off the handle, trust me, you will find that evidence. But if you are looking for evidence that you can change, if you are looking for evidence that you can grow, sure enough, you will also find that evidence. And I think this idea that the mindset that you have is a self-fulfilling prophecy is the beginning of understanding how you might get out of one mindset and into another, and something that we share with ninth graders, but honestly, I think it's useful if you're in ninth grade or if you're 99. Um, when we are trying to open a mind to this idea that human nature is malleable, we show them evidence from neuroscience that the brain is growing. In fact, there's not a era in your life, doesn't matter how old you are, where you're not literally creating new brain cells, and even more importantly, the connections between your brain cells, between your neurons are, are remodeling, right?

    27. MR

      Mm.

    28. AD

      So, um, when I was in college, I went to college from 1988 to 1992. My major was neurobiology. What I learned was that the brain is very, very, uh, much a work in progress when you are in preschool.

    29. MR

      Okay.

    30. AD

      And maybe a little bit in elementary school. And then, you know, things start to slow down after adolescence. Like, now you are who you are, who you are, who you are, who y- you will always be. That is completely outdated. Now we teach students in neurobiology and neuroscience that plasticity is the name of the game. You know, what makes human beings so special is not that we're born smart, it's just that we, you know, become smarter and smarter for, you know, throughout our whole lives.

  3. 13:30 – 17:15

    Inside the Mind of Top Performers

    1. MR

      what I'm now hearing, based on what you just said, is that consistency is not doing it every day in a row. Consistency is doing it more days than not, or at least doing it the day after you didn't do it-

    2. AD

      So, you gotta figure out-

    3. MR

      ... like what? Okay.

    4. AD

      Okay, so like, Michael Phelps did actually (laughs) spend apparently, like, 10 years with 365 days a year without taking a day off for Christmas, without taking a day off for his birthday or New Year's or New Year's Eve. That's unusual, and I think any athletic trainer would tell you that days off are a good thing.

    5. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    6. AD

      So, I don't wanna say that there's anything magic about seven out of seven or-

    7. MR

      Right.

    8. AD

      ... 365 out of 365. But most of us can look at the project that we're trying to do-

    9. MR

      Uh-huh.

    10. AD

      ... and, and tell ourselves, like, "This is what consistency is." Maybe it's five days a week. I mean, let's take physical therapy, something I do a lot of, um, 'cause I (laughs) have scoliosis and I've got lots of orthopedic issues, so I get to experience, um, you know, behavior change, which is what I study as a scientist through my own just, like, personal life and trying to get... So, so I have to do my physical therapy, and there's, like, different exercises that I have to do, but not all of them are seven days a week exercises.

    11. MR

      Mm.

    12. AD

      There is a routine. Whatever it is that you want to do, whatever consistency means to you, write it down and aim for that. And that's what the goal is. But, but what I mean by it not being intensity is, it's not like, "I'm gonna go do my physical therapy and I'm gonna do 11 out of 10 on intensity. Like, I'm gonna kill it," and like, no. Just do your physical therapy (laughs) the way your physical therapist said you should do it, and then do it again the next day as your physical therapist rec-, and then do it again, and then do it again. That's consistency.

    13. MR

      Eh, y- this conversation reminds me a bit of that famous Jay-Z quote, "The genius thing we did is we didn't quit."

    14. AD

      Oh, I didn't know that. Wait-

    15. MR

      And-

    16. AD

      ... what?

    17. MR

      Yes.

    18. AD

      I have not heard that quote.

    19. MR

      Yes. And I, I do really believe-

    20. AD

      I love that.

    21. MR

      ... it's you against you.

    22. AD

      Yeah.

    23. MR

      And that, you, you started talking about talent, and I wanna come back to talent because so many people believe that success comes down to talent, and your work really proves otherwise, that there's a different component that is really important. Can you unpack talent versus hard work?

    24. AD

      I'm gonna define talent, because it's this word-

    25. MR

      Oh, good. What is it?

    26. AD

      ... we use it in so many ways, and this is how I think we are really defining it, even if we don't, you know, have a dictionary at our side. Talent is the rate at which you improve at something when you try. You're a really talented person, you improve a lot for every hour of practice. If you are a less talented person, you improve only a very little bit with every hour of practice. There is no shame or fear, I think, in acknowledging that we may be more talented at some things than others. I'm pretty talented at psychology. When I started my PhD at age 32, I was pregnant with my second daughter, I was still nursing the first, and when I would read a psychology article, I, you know, of course knew nothing, I didn't know the vocabulary, I didn't know where to start. But when I would read about motivation, about beliefs, about mindsets, about practice, I, I ascended a learning curve relatively steeply.

    27. MR

      Mm.

    28. AD

      But I'm very, very untalented when it comes to history, when it comes to, um, politics, current events. Um, I, um, terrible ... Umm, I th- I teach at the Wharton School of Business, and every year, I have to ask my students again, I'm like, "Wait, remind me what a hedge fund is, just one more time, tell me what (laughs) ... And how's it different from private equity? Uh, write it down this time." And then the next year, I have to ask again. I'm not very good at learning some things,

  4. 17:15 – 23:03

    The Truth About Talent and Why It’s Not Enough

    1. AD

      but I am very agile at learning others. And I think that's really the heart of what we mean when we say, like, somebody's innately talented-

    2. MR

      Huh.

    3. AD

      ... right? That somebody's gifted at basketball or gifted at soccer or gifted at math or anything else.

    4. MR

      And that it's the rate you improve at something.

    5. AD

      I think that's what it... Uh, to me, that's th- what th- that's, like, the, the, the gist of what we really mean.

    6. MR

      Well, that's a nice thing, 'cause I normally, like, would define it as something deficient in me.

    7. AD

      (laughs)

    8. MR

      You know what I'm saying? Like, I would see talent-

    9. AD

      Well, what are you talented at?

    10. MR

      ... as somebody... Well, well, look, I don't know, like, you know, that, that, that somebody can step on a stage and sing a perfect tune-

    11. AD

      Mm-hmm.

    12. MR

      ... and that in relation to me, that somebody can shoot-

    13. AD

      Yeah, 'cause you see somebody else and you're like, "Oh, they're more talented."

    14. MR

      But I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, I'm born that way." Well, and of course I got better.

    15. AD

      But, but what do you think your greatest talents are though?

    16. MR

      Me?

    17. AD

      Yeah.

    18. MR

      Um, I think my greatest talent is probably taking a massive amount of information and distilling it down (snaps fingers) like that into something-

    19. AD

      (sighs)

    20. MR

      ... super simple.

    21. AD

      And, and being able to communicate it too-

    22. MR

      Yes.

    23. AD

      ... right?

    24. MR

      Right. Yes.

    25. AD

      And I bet when you started, you didn't know everything you know now, but my guess is that you learned fast.

    26. MR

      Yeah. I also am really talented at cooking, I'm talented-

    27. AD

      Mm-hmm.

    28. MR

      ... at, like, arranging flowers, like-

    29. AD

      Yeah.

    30. MR

      So I s- but I, I realized I had a very limited...... definition of talent.

  5. 23:03 – 43:15

    How to Figure Out What You’re Interested In

    1. AD

      you're interested-"

    2. MR

      Hmm.

    3. AD

      "... in cooking." And she looked at me like I was, you know, from planet Mars. I was just like, "Oh, what do you mean?" (laughs) I was like, "What do you mean, what do I mean?" So, I will say, the first stage of grit is interest, and you don't always even know that you're interested in something until a passerby or a loved one says, "Hey, by the way, you spend a lot of time thinking about X, Y or Z." So that is the first psychological asset of grit. I don't believe that you can grow passion without the seed of, of interest.

    4. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AD

      And I, I genuinely believe that though we may not all be equal in IQ, though we may have different talents that, that when we begin to notice where our mind lives, when we begin to notice what attracts our attention spontaneously, that is the beginning of discovering the interests that can make us something of a genius about, about what we do.

    6. MR

      I'm so glad we're starting with interest, because if you're listening right now and you're not really sure what you're interested in, which I think a lot of people have that experience. In fact, in your book, you address this. You write about a Reddit post.

    7. AD

      (laughs)

    8. MR

      And I wanna read this because I personally think if you don't relate to this, what this person wrote on Reddit-You are related to somebody who is living this right now. "I'm in my early 30s, and I have no idea what to do with myself career-wise. All my life, I've been one of those people who has been told how smart I am, how much potential I have. I'm interested in so much stuff that I'm paralyzed to try anything. It seems like every job requires a specialized certificate or designation that requires long-term time and financial investment before you can even try the job, which is a bit of a drag. What do I do?"

    9. AD

      (laughs)

    10. MR

      I don't know what I'm interested in. Dr. Duckworth, what do I do?

    11. AD

      I have collected data on, I don't know, tens of thousands, maybe 50,000, maybe 100,000 people. I can tell you, Mel, that when I study passion and perseverance for long-term goals, and I can give you a sub-score on my questionnaire for passion, which is, you know, this consistency of interest over time, but really an abiding kind of love, and perseverance, which is resilience, you know, "I wanna do the practice, I wanna do the hard work," reliably, people score higher in perseverance than they do for passion. I think discovering and developing interests is a lot harder than it sounds, right? It sounds like the hard part is the work. No, no, no. Figuring out the direction is, for most people, including myself, like the real torturous part. So, one of the things that you should know about interests is that, it is in some ways voluntary, but it is in some ways involuntary. Like, you cannot force yourself to be interested in things.

    12. MR

      Well, anyone's who's a parent knows you can't force...

    13. AD

      (laughs) Yeah.

    14. MR

      And, and, everyone...

    15. AD

      You might try, but yeah.

    16. MR

      Well, anyone who's a human being has, has had a parent try to force them to-

    17. AD

      Absolutely.

    18. MR

      ... do something they're not interested in.

    19. AD

      All those little kids playing piano and violin, like, how many of them are actually (laughs) interested in it?

    20. MR

      It's true.

    21. AD

      Like, very few, right?

    22. MR

      It's true. But-

    23. AD

      And it's really foolish.

    24. MR

      But what questions should you ask yourself if you're not sure what you're interested in?

    25. AD

      I wanna say something really provocative. I think maybe instead of asking yourself another question, you should just go and do something, right? Like my Pilates teacher would say, like, "Don't think it, just do it. Don't think it, just do it." Stop writing in your journal. Stop asking yourself questions. Like, literally go out and do something. You know, interests are like food, you gotta taste it to know whether you like it or not, and that to me is the number one mistake I see people making. They, like, think about it and they think about it, and then they wanna talk to their friends about it, or... Okay, there's a limited amount of good that that does, but one of the things about interest is they, they really do emerge from experience, and you can't predict. I remember teaching these three triplets, these, um, you know, adorable, uh, boys, and they were all very fine students, and you know, like so many young adults, they were like, thinking about what they were wanting to do with their career. But all it took was one summer internship to be sitting behind a desk in a terminal and to realize, like, "I am going to go crazy. Why? Because I don't like sitting down this much." Well, (laughs) you probably can rule out the job that you just interned for, right? And now that person became, like, a fitness instructor, right? So how would he know that? No amount of journaling, no amount of reflecting, and no amount of conversing with friends is going to substitute for one hour of actual experience. So, in science, the science of interest, the science of, uh, motivation, we call this sampling.

    26. MR

      Okay.

    27. AD

      So, before you specialize in being a- an author or a podcast host or a psychologist like me, you have to sample broadly. So, the paradox of, of specialization is that it's preceded by a breadth of sampling. So, before you become a, you know, jack of one trade, you know, to some extent, you have to try a lot of trades, right? And, and so with children, what you see, you know, very wise and, and certainly very privileged parents, right? Because it sometimes costs money to do this. You know, they're cycling their kids through a variety of pursuits so they can sample, so they can taste things and spit 'em out if they don't like them, you know? My daughter, Lucy, the one who I mentioned with great fondness, uh, uh, was not prodigiously gr- you know, gritty when she was growing up. We cycled her through, uh, ballet, through pottery. She did track one year. She, um, played the viola. I mean, one thing after the other. We had, in our family, the hard thing rule. Families have their rules. We, in the Duckworth family, raised our kids by the hard thing rule. It had three parts, and it was all really about the philosophy of interest and sampling. So, the first part was, well, it has to be something that requires your hard thing, 'cause everyone has to do the hard thing, right? So, you can choose a hard thing, but the hard thing has to have an element of deliberate practice. So, it has to have goals and, you know, effort and feedback, okay? So, viola counted, right? But, like, that little studio down the street where you basically just ate Goldfish crackers and, like, hung out, like, that, that doesn't count, 'cause there are no goals. (laughs) There's no effort. There's no feedback. Okay, that was rule, part one. The second part was you were not allowed to quit in the middle.

    28. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    29. AD

      So, when Lucy came home from her very first track meet, she actually came up to the bleachers, and she was like, "Mom, I don't wanna run track anymore." And I was like, "Okay, you don't have to run track anymore. You only have eight more weeks to go." So, we did not let our kids quit in the middle...

    30. MR

      I love that rule.

  6. 43:15 – 1:00:58

    Why You’re Not Getting Better (Even Though You’re Trying)

    1. AD

      know, if I tabulate all the hours I had jogged in my life, I was like, "I should be Usain Bolt." And he was like, "Well, do you have a goal?" And I was like, "Never." (laughs) He was like, "Do you practice with complete effort and concentration," like, um, like, when I'm running? "No, I'm listening to podcasts." And then he said, "Do you get immediate feedback on things that you could improve before you go out for your next run?" And I was (laughs) like, "Are you kidding? Who would give me that?" So, I was doing low-quality practice. So, the 10,000-hour rule is this: If you want to become great at what you do, you have to do thousands of hours, maybe not the exact number, 10,000, but yes, thousands of hours, of the highest-quality practice that you can do. And what Anders and I found together is that when you are really passionate and persevering about a long-term goal, you are the sort of person who puts in more of those high-quality hours.

    2. MR

      And in listening to you, it also sounds like there are three things that determine what makes up high-quality hours. And in the words, you used the words "deliberate practice," that you're doing the thing with a goal in mind-

    3. AD

      Mm-hmm.

    4. MR

      ... that you are giving it your all, and that you get immediate feedback afterwards.

    5. AD

      Exactly right. I mean, it's so simple, isn't it? Like Mel, it's free.

    6. MR

      It sounds painful, honestly.

    7. AD

      Okay, it's painful.

    8. MR

      (laughs)

    9. AD

      It's painful, but there's no patent. Like, you don't have to pay anybody, right? I mean, you know?

    10. MR

      I'm joking, but I-

    11. AD

      It's psychologically costly, but you know, it's financially available to all of us.

    12. MR

      Well, I love how honest you are when you basically said, "I've, I, I've basically jogged for 10,000 hours-"

    13. AD

      Yeah. (laughs)

    14. MR

      "... so why am I not winning the Olympics?"

    15. AD

      Yeah.

    16. MR

      And you also admitted, "Well, I don't really have a goal."

    17. AD

      Right.

    18. MR

      "I'm out there doing this thing."

    19. AD

      Yeah.

    20. MR

      And maybe the goal is-

    21. AD

      "And I'm not trying that hard."

    22. MR

      "And I'm not trying that hard, and then I don't really take any feedback at all."

    23. AD

      Yeah, none.

    24. MR

      "Not for my watch."

    25. AD

      Zero.

    26. MR

      "Not," yeah, "zero-"

    27. AD

      Yeah.

    28. MR

      "... 'cause I'm not wearing a watch."

    29. AD

      Yeah.

    30. MR

      But if you really look at it, if you want to get better at somebo- som- something, there's the three-part formula.

  7. 1:00:58 – 1:15:17

    The Step by Step Guide to Finding Your Passion

    1. MR

    2. AD

      Life.

    3. MR

      But, so it just naturally brings me alive.

    4. AD

      Yeah.

    5. MR

      My kids tease me 'cause we can walk through a city park. I can name every flower. I can talk about it.

    6. AD

      (laughs) .

    7. MR

      I'm just super interested in it. There we go, right?

    8. AD

      Yeah, there you go.

    9. MR

      And I heard about a woman in our community who had gotten very sick, and she's a, a flower farmer.

    10. AD

      Mm.

    11. MR

      And I organized a bunch of friends to go help her while she was in the hospital.

    12. AD

      Yeah.

    13. MR

      And it gave me a deep sense-

    14. AD

      Mm-hmm.

    15. MR

      ... of meaning and purpose.

    16. AD

      Mm-hmm.

    17. MR

      And so, that's an example-

    18. AD

      Yes.

    19. MR

      ... not in career-

    20. AD

      Mm-hmm.

    21. MR

      ... of how you can infuse day-to-day life with things that you're interested in, and then also find ways to make it part of...... purposeful living, just like your husband, who's like, "Wait a minute. I, it bothers me-"

    22. AD

      Yeah.

    23. MR

      "... that there's trash on my walk." And I'm glad you shared that because the last time I walked the loop by my house-

    24. AD

      (laughs)

    25. MR

      ... I noticed an uptick in trash, and I thought, "I need-"

    26. AD

      There's a lot of trash going on.

    27. MR

      But I w- but I-

    28. AD

      Yeah.

    29. MR

      ... I immediately thought, "This will give you..."

    30. AD

      Yeah.

  8. 1:15:17 – 1:25:02

    How to Achieve Your Most Ambitious Goals

    1. AD

      think like pep talks, right? You know, you're kinda down, you're thinking like, "Oh, I don't think I can do this," and someone comes along, maybe somebody who cares about you, and says, "No. You can do it. I've seen you do it before." And Al Bandura didn't wanna dismiss that. He said that is a very powerful source of agency, but not as good as a third thing, which is that a person comes along and they don't give you a pep talk, they give you a model. They show you what's possible by example.

    2. MR

      Mm. Mm-hmm.

    3. AD

      So, he would run these studies and l- little girls and boys would watch an adult do something, like play with a toy, and they would watch behind this like plate glass, um, divider. And then when you let them into the room, and they could do whatever they want, they just did exactly the same thing with the toy as the grownup did. We learn through modeling, and when we're not confident that we can do something and we see a model who-

    4. MR

      Mm.

    5. AD

      ... maybe looks like us, maybe doesn't look like us, but we vibe with, in some other way, we identify with them, that creates agency in us. And I've heard that from my own students. They'll tell me like, "Oh, you know, you're an Asian female and I have found y- you to be an example for me." And I say to them like, "Wow, I don't even think about (laughs) being Asian female." But, but clearly they could see what was possible through that. But what I really wanna dwell on is the fourth thing. The fourth thing was the most important thing. More important than your physiological state, more important than pep talks, and even more important than having a model, and that was what he called a mastery experience. I call it a small win. You want someone to have agency? They need a small win. Every Olympic coach knows this. You have an athlete that loses a race, and then another race, and all of a sudden they're in a rut, you know what they need? They need a small win. They, they need it in some way, like they are trying to do something in practice and they did it in practice. They tried to adjust their elbow by a little, they, they did it. So, I think that when we find a person in our lives, maybe ourselves (laughs) , you know, where there's a real lack of hope-

    6. MR

      Mm.

    7. AD

      ... to me, the most important thing is to find something that can be that little victory that gives you hard evidence that you can do something if you try. And that's what I try to remember but don't always enact, uh, with myself and, of course, with my children.

Episode duration: 1:31:46

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