How To Handle Difficult People & Take Back Your Peace and Power

1. 0:00 – 4:38

   Welcome

   1. MRMel Robbins0:00

      It is really unsettling to have to deal with somebody that is a difficult personality.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher0:08

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MRMel Robbins0:09

      Who, whenever they get overwhelmed or upset, they're like, "Nobody ever listens to me," like, "Ra-ra-ra-ra-ra." How do you respond to that?

   4. JFJefferson Fisher0:15

      (laughs) You're going to pose questions for them. "I never listen to you." I, I wanna make sure I understood it, "I never listen to you"? Is it that you feel that I never listen to you? Or is it that I actually objectively never listen?

   5. MRMel Robbins0:30

      Holy cow. How do you respond to disrespect?

   6. JFJefferson Fisher0:33

      A lot of silence. They're wanting a reaction. So if somebody says something disrespectful, you give enough silence to make sure that it's a little awkward, and then you're going to say something to the effect of, "That's below my standard for a response."

   7. MRMel Robbins0:50

      How do you handle someone who's gaslighting you?

   8. JFJefferson Fisher0:53

      There is one simple phrase that I use that whoever's listening can use over and over.

   9. NANarrator0:59

      (clock ticking)

   10. MRMel Robbins1:01

       Hey, it's Mel. I am so excited that you're here. It is always such an honor to spend time with you and to be together. And if you're brand new, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. I also wanna take a moment and acknowledge you for taking time to listen to something that could truly help you live a better life, and I love what you and I are gonna be talking about on today's episode, because we're gonna get to spend some time today with the incredible trial lawyer Jefferson Fisher. I wouldn't be surprised if you've actually seen him online, because every single day, millions of people watch the videos that Jefferson makes from the front seat of his car in between his court cases and meetings with his clients. Jefferson's strategies for handling belittlement, gaslighting, fake apologies, toxic behavior, and difficult conversations are game changers. Boom. He is so good. I'm so excited. So let's get into it. Jefferson Fisher, I am so thrilled you're back on the Mel Robbins Podcast.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher2:00

       Thank you for having me.

   12. MRMel Robbins2:00

       And congratulations on your new book, The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More.

   13. JFJefferson Fisher2:06

       Thank you very much. I'm, uh, very proud of it, very excited to, to help a lot of people.

   14. MRMel Robbins2:10

       Well, I can't wait to dig in to the topic of how you can communicate effectively and hold onto your power, particularly when you're dealing with difficult people, challenging situations. But before we get into the tactics, can you just talk to the person listening? And if they take everything that you're about to teach them from your new book and they put it to use in their life, what are they gonna experience?

   15. JFJefferson Fisher2:41

       They're going to experience a sense of control in knowing who they are and who they want to be, and by that, I mean they will have a sense of control if they can stand their ground in that next conversation. They can handle that difficult, toxic person in their next conversation. And even more so, they'll be able to navigate who they want to be and where they want to go in their life simply by the words that they say next.

   16. MRMel Robbins3:07

       What I love about your work, and the reason why I'm so excited about your book, is because it is really unsettling to have to deal with somebody that is a difficult personality.

   17. JFJefferson Fisher3:23

       Mm-hmm.

   18. MRMel Robbins3:24

       And I wanna invite you as you're listening to the conversation today and getting to spend some time learning from Jefferson, I want you to think about someone in your life that is really difficult. It might be an ex-spouse, and you had a contentious breakup or divorce, and you have to deal with them because of the kids. Maybe it's your mom or your father-in-law or brother-in-law. Maybe you have a issue with a child or a boss at work, just like tension, frustration, grudges, like all these things that can really make the dynamic challenging, because I know that everything that you're gonna learn from Jefferson today is going to help you hold onto your power whenever you are going to need to deal with this person. And one of the things I'd love for you to just explain is how did the experience of being a trial lawyer really prime you and your expertise in being able to deal effectively with somebody who has a challenging personality or is argumentative? Like, how did that shape you in the way that you approach this?

   19. JFJefferson Fisher4:37

       Hmm.

2. 4:38 – 9:10

   Understanding Difficult Personalities

   1. JFJefferson Fisher4:38

      I love that. Well, this is something, uh, you know very well about, that is these difficult personalities, when you talk to them, it's often they're only difficult because they have a, a fear, an insecurity, a need. So instead of seeing it as a conflict, you see it as a bid for connection. They are wanting to feel like they can be heard, that they're important, what they say is, somebody can acknowledge and care about it, versus always having to poke and prod. So when I'm cross-examining somebody, a lot of these techniques that I use has to do with, one, I understand that just because they say something doesn't mean I have to swing at it. Just because they throw a ball doesn't mean I have to swing. You just let the pitch go by. Nobody can make me say anything that I don't want to say. The same way, I don't have to respond even if they send a zinger at me. So there's that sense of control of, "Yeah, you can say what you need to say. That doesn't mean I need to say what I wanna say." So there's this, uh, confidence that you can have from questioning people in the courtroom. Another would be understanding that that conflict, that argument is simply a window into another person's struggle. When I'm representing a client and you're representing another client, a lot of the time, it's a weird occupation, though, if you think about it. You know, I, people hire me to have beef with somebody I don't have...... beef with.

   2. MRMel Robbins6:07

      (laughs)

   3. JFJefferson Fisher6:07

      And then what makes it even harder is they hire somebody to have beef with me. So when you're arguing with that opposing attorney, he and I or she and I, we- we don't have any problems really. We're just taking on the problems of somebody else, and you can't... Arguments aren't something to- to win, and especially in a courtroom. You just give the evidence and the facts a voice. You advocate for those facts under the given law. So it's very different in that sense, but the same rules apply, that the less you say, the more powerful you sound, the more, uh, confident you express yourself, the more you seem more confident in yourself. So it's these little tips that I like to give from the courtroom that, um, help me understand that difficult people are just people. We can all be difficult.

   4. MRMel Robbins6:58

      So the thing that I'm already taking away is that even viewing someone as being super difficult or being narcissistic in their personality type-

   5. JFJefferson Fisher7:11

      Mm-hmm.

   6. MRMel Robbins7:11

      ... or holding grudges or negative or whatever label you wanna put, that right there is already a problem, because you already flipped it on its head and said, "This is just a person that wants attention. This is a person who wants to be understood, and they don't feel understood, which is why you're getting all that negativity on the surface." And so if you, number one, if I'm listening and hearing you correctly, if you even just flip your viewpoint about this person to, "Hey, this is just another human being who has not the best way of trying to get themselves understood," that right there already lowers the intensity of the interaction.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher7:52

      Mm-hmm. Yeah. It- it is that mindset. If you go into it knowing, or telling and convincing yourself that this person is difficult, well, you've... All of a sudden, you've made it difficult for you.

   8. MRMel Robbins8:04

      Hmm.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher8:06

      W- what's to stop you from thinking, "This person is somebody I need to make sure I listen to"? Sometimes, the goal is too high. If your goal is, "They need to believe everything that I say, they need to do everything that I do," you're never gonna get that. Instead, if you can go into the conversation with a much smaller goal, like, "I wanna make sure that they understand me. I wanna make sure that I understand them. I wanna make sure that I listen to them without interrupting. I wanna make sure that I listen to the end of their sentences..." That's very rare for people to listen to the end of somebody's sentence. So you find that often, when it's a difficult conversation, you're the one that's called it difficult. You're the one who's made it difficult from the outset for yourself. You haven't had the conversation yet. Now, you might know that person to be- tend to have personalities or behaviors that can be seen objectively as difficult, but often, when you hear that person say, "You don't listen to me," what they're saying on the inside is, "I want to feel heard. I want you to connect with me. I want to be understood."

3. 9:10 – 23:27

   Techniques for Dealing with Conflict

   1. MRMel Robbins9:10

      How do you deal with somebody who's- who, whenever they get overwhelmed or upset, they're like, "Nobody ever listens to me." Like (imitates growling sound) 　 . How do you respond to that?

   2. JFJefferson Fisher9:19

      (laughs) If they come in hot and heavy like that-

   3. MRMel Robbins9:22

      Yeah.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher9:22

      ... and nobody ever listens to me, well, then you're gonna be the opposite of that. Meaning, you're going to pose questions for them, I mean, for example, that never, that's one word that's an extreme you're going to attach. "I never listen to you. I- I wanna make sure I understood that. I never listen to you." Typically, they'll draw back from that because then you use an extreme. They know you have to listen to them. Then you go pull at another layer. "All right, is it that you feel that I never listen to you, or is it that I actually objectively never listen?" You go it again. "Okay. So I- you feel like I don't listen to that. Well, let's- let's talk about it. Let's- let's keep going. That's helpful to know. I'm here. I'm listening. I'd like to change that." You- you just find ways to go at it- go at it again.

   5. MRMel Robbins10:13

      That was masterful.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher10:16

      Well, thank you.

   7. MRMel Robbins10:16

      And I know I'm not the only one, Jefferson, who is now going to take that script and start using it with people in their life, and I- I'm thinking of some- one person in particular-

   8. JFJefferson Fisher10:28

      (laughs)

   9. MRMel Robbins10:28

      ... who, whenever they get upset, that's 1,000% what they say.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher10:33

       Mm-hmm.

   11. MRMel Robbins10:34

       And I now know, 'cause I'm learning from you, listen to the end of the sentence, take a beat. You also did this- this technique that I noticed, where you lowered when I raised my voice.

   12. JFJefferson Fisher10:52

       Hmm.

   13. MRMel Robbins10:53

       And you slowed the conversation down by simply slowing the pace of the question, and you're asking the question not like a jerk, like, "Oh, so I never listen to you?" 'Cause that's the other thing that people do.

   14. JFJefferson Fisher11:06

       Right.

   15. MRMel Robbins11:07

       Versus saying, "I never listen to you?"

   16. JFJefferson Fisher11:13

       Yeah. It's powerful stuff. If you can, anytime when somebody is going super high-

   17. MRMel Robbins11:18

       Yeah.

   18. JFJefferson Fisher11:18

       ... they're yelling, you go even slower. Even lower your voice, because then you're the one who sounds calm and in control, and they're the one that seems like they're on the extremes. Their voice and their brain and their ear will hear that, and they'll start to lower it, 'cause they don't like to be out in the extremes. So they'll start to slow themselves down. What I teach, um, my clients is that the person that you see is often not the person you're talking to, and what I mean by that is I've had a client- uh, not a client, but a witness that I was deposing-

   19. MRMel Robbins11:56

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JFJefferson Fisher11:57

       ... and he was ugly with me, and he was big and brash and didn't like any of the questions I was asking him. And I asked him the question, "So what are you struggling with today?" I said, "I- let's just, uh, set aside the case. What are you struggling with right now?"And he went on to tell me about how he was having a hard time with his mother. She- he had just had to put her in a nursing home, assisted living. His father was, passed away, his brother was, uh, out in the oil field, and he was the only one to take care of her, and he was just nervous about it, and he had been getting letters from attorneys.

   21. MRMel Robbins12:34

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JFJefferson Fisher12:35

       And so, this big guy who was in front of me, even though he was being ugly to me in that conversation, I knew that the person I saw is not the person I was talking to. You have that when every conversation you have. Yeah, you see this person and they look mad and they look ugly, but who's the person you're talking to? It's, you, the person behind the counter, the person who waits on you, the, the, the cashier. Every one of them is a chance to have connection with that person, because who you talk to right then affects how they talk to everybody else. It's a, it's a ripple effect. S- how you talk to your kids affects how they're gonna talk to their kids. How you talk to the person who takes your order, if you're rude to them, well, they're gonna have a harder time talking to the people that li- they love when they go home. So it is a, it's a big circle of life in a way.

   23. MRMel Robbins13:23

       Well, it's also, what you're pointing to is you have power.

   24. JFJefferson Fisher13:26

       Oh, yeah.

   25. MRMel Robbins13:27

       And we don't, we don't think about it that way. We get so wrapped up in the stress of our day-to-day lives that you forget that your words and your energy has tremendous power-

   26. JFJefferson Fisher13:37

       Mm-hmm.

   27. MRMel Robbins13:37

       ... and we give it away to other people. And particularly when somebody is a negative person or they're a difficult personality and you start to brace and you believe they have more power because of their bravado or their-

   28. JFJefferson Fisher13:53

       Right.

   29. MRMel Robbins13:53

       ... whatever, or the fact that they're constantly gaslighting you, or interrupting, or they pull the silent treatment, all of these things that are wildly emotionally immature-

   30. JFJefferson Fisher14:06

       Yeah.
4. 23:27 – 28:36

   Handling Belittlement and Disrespect

   1. MRMel Robbins23:27

      idea what's actually going on.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher23:28

      Yeah, somebody... You pass by somebody in the hallway and they didn't say hello. You go, "Oh, they must be mad at me." No, they were just focusing on other things in their life.

   3. MRMel Robbins23:37

      How do you handle somebody that kinda belittles you? They're like picking on your weight or they're-

   4. JFJefferson Fisher23:44

      Hmm.

   5. MRMel Robbins23:44

      ...constantly like, "Are you still single?" Like, you know-

   6. JFJefferson Fisher23:47

      (laughs)

   7. MRMel Robbins23:47

      ...like people, like especially people-

   8. JFJefferson Fisher23:49

      Yeah.

   9. MRMel Robbins23:49

      ...that you're close with have a way of belittling you.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher23:52

       Right.

   11. MRMel Robbins23:52

       What- what- what do you do in those situations?

   12. JFJefferson Fisher23:55

       When somebody is belittling you or giving you a insult and that hurtful comment, you make them repeat it, because what they're hoping to do in that belittling comment is get that reaction out of you.And instead, you find a way to take all the fun out of it. So when you ask them to repeat what they said, they're, you're not giving them that hit of dopamine that they were expecting from your reaction. They're not getting that, that response time from you. Instead, you're delaying that gratification for them. Then it's just not worth it. Then it's just not fun. And so when you ask them to repeat it, to say, "I need you to say that again-"

   13. MRMel Robbins24:32

       I'm thinking of-

   14. JFJefferson Fisher24:33

       Oh, you're very-

   15. MRMel Robbins24:33

       ... of, like, using this with-

   16. JFJefferson Fisher24:34

       Yeah.

   17. MRMel Robbins24:34

       ... a couple people in my life.

   18. JFJefferson Fisher24:36

       Yeah. (laughs)

   19. MRMel Robbins24:37

       Uh, we need to role play this.

   20. JFJefferson Fisher24:39

       Sure.

   21. MRMel Robbins24:40

       Um, I'm trying to think of a scenario.

   22. JFJefferson Fisher24:41

       Like you just said right there, um, you're still single.

   23. MRMel Robbins24:45

       I need you to repeat that.

   24. JFJefferson Fisher24:46

       Yeah. You, so-

   25. MRMel Robbins24:48

       (laughs)

   26. JFJefferson Fisher24:48

       Exactly. And then I'm not gonna wanna say that again, because now that spotlight is on me. And then also, what you lead up with that is you ask questions of intent. For example, "Did you say that to hurt me?" And now it's this mirror that they feel like, "Well, why did, why did I say that? Oh, okay," and then they start to backtrack. Then you don't have to say anything. But if, often, I can just repeat what they said. So if y- uh, somebody says to you, uh, "Oh, so you're still single? I need you to say that again," most likely, they're not going to say that again. But if they do, then you can even repeat what they said. "I'm still single. That's what you asked me?" And all of a sudden, they realize, "This isn't fun." They're not gonna ask that kinda thing again.

   27. MRMel Robbins25:38

       Wow.

   28. JFJefferson Fisher25:39

       Or you just ask that question of, "Did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to offend me?" "Oh, no, no, no, no. I didn't say that. I, uh, well, what I meant was..." And all of a sudden, they're backing away, because they know you're gonna stand your ground.

   29. MRMel Robbins25:51

       Wow. This is, like, very eye-opening, because I can see both situations where I need to use it, and I can see situations where I probably say things, and I'm thinking particularly to my adult kids, that probably feels belittling. I, I can think about, like, our, our daughter out in Los Angeles, and every time I see her, she's wearing a piece of clothing that I (laughs) don't recognize. And so I think to myself, and oftentimes I will say, "Is that new?" And I'm thinking in my mind, "Where, w- w- where do you get the money for this," you know?

   30. JFJefferson Fisher26:32

       Mm-hmm.
5. 28:36 – 31:05

   Dealing with Rude Behavior in Public

   1. MRMel Robbins28:36

      What do you do... I, I, I was with somebody yesterday who had just visited their mother, and I said to her, you know, like, "How did it go?" And she said, "Well, it was fine, but it's my mother, and the thing that drives me crazy is she is extremely disrespectful-"

   2. JFJefferson Fisher28:53

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   3. MRMel Robbins28:54

      "... to anybody that is waiting on us at a restaurant, like so much so that the owner came over and said something to her." What do you... Is there a way to respond when someone else is throwing a fit or is being disrespectful? You know what I mean? Like, somebody's getting testy at the airport, or, and they're, they're with you. It's not a complete stranger. Is there something that you could say to somebody in that situation?

   4. JFJefferson Fisher29:25

      Depends, uh, how your relationship is with that person. I would advise that whoever they're disrespecting, you don't join in it, and you make it clear that that is not your behavior. So you're gonna be the person that is kind to this person. So I've had it before. My grandfather came with me to Walmart. It was a terrible time. Uh, and- (laughs)

   5. MRMel Robbins29:45

      (laughs)

   6. JFJefferson Fisher29:45

      ... he was, he was in a bad mood, and he was crotchety to everybody we talked to. But I was the one that was, "Thank you so much for helping us. I appreciate it. Thank you so much," being overly, "Hey, I understand. Thank you." Making that eye contact with this other person of, "This other person's not having a good time," and then you have that conversation. I had to have that conversation with my grandfather, and I-

   7. MRMel Robbins30:06

      How did you do that?

   8. JFJefferson Fisher30:07

      I had to put a boundary, uh, a very firm boundary of, "If this is the way you're gonna talk to people, I can't come with you."... if you don't change the tone in which you're talking to people, Pop, I c- I can't, I can't come." And so, it very was, uh, "Wh- what, what am I saying?" "Uh, you're not being s- respectful to people." "Yes, I am." "I would not be telling you this if you had been respectful to people." And, and it's just having this, this conversation where they need to... Uh, it's the people you love, and often you have to be their, their biggest mirror of protecting them also for how other people see them. And so, I love my grandfather. I want other people to love him, and that means I also have to make sure that I need to put... I need to prepare him in a loving way of being very direct if this is how you're talking to people.

   9. MRMel Robbins30:58

      Has he changed?

   10. JFJefferson Fisher30:59

       He has.

   11. MRMel Robbins31:00

       Wow.

   12. JFJefferson Fisher31:00

       We also just don't go to Walmart, so... (laughs)

   13. MRMel Robbins31:04

       (laughs) Oh my gosh.

6. 31:05 – 35:09

   Responding to Difficult Personalities

   1. MRMel Robbins31:05

      Do you have strategies, Jefferson, for dealing with your own emotions when you're dealing with somebody who's got a very difficult personality?

   2. JFJefferson Fisher31:14

      My breath. It is crazy to me how your body controls what you say. Like, when you are feeling threatened, so maybe, maybe you say something that challenges my credibility or I feel undermined. My body says, "I feel threatened about this. There is a threat. I need to do something, either defend myself or get out of that situation."

   3. MRMel Robbins31:37

      Mm-hmm.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher31:37

      And when it turns to the fight, I will hold my breath. Why? Because your muscles are getting tight. They're ready to react. Your shoulders go tense. You feel it in your ears. So that's why if you're not breathing, you will say things that are louder. You will yell 'cause you're trying to make the threat go away. But if you breathe, or I'd say a conversational breath, you take that, let your breath be the first word that you say, then you're gonna have a lot more control over what you're going to say next. So, in terms of re- regulating my emotions, it is simply knowing that I can't control anything that they do or say-

   5. MRMel Robbins32:15

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher32:15

      ... but I'm the one that can control everything. Silence can never be misquoted. So, it is often a lot stronger to say nothing at all than to send that one little thing that you think is gonna win it, because if you think you can win an argument, you don't win anything, Mel. You just... you lose your credibility. You've, you've lost that connection. I mean, what have you got? Now, now it's just aw- you, you want awkward silence between the two of you? You still have to possibly work with this person, live with this person. You've now just made it really awkward for the next few days before you make up. So, you find ways to always just kinda control your, your breath and your shoulders.

   7. MRMel Robbins32:56

      And shoulders, like pull them back?

   8. JFJefferson Fisher32:59

      Uh, no. You're putting them down.

   9. MRMel Robbins33:01

      Okay.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher33:01

       Often, when you have your shoulders next to your ears, it's, it's tension, makes you cranky.

   11. MRMel Robbins33:05

       Well, what's interesting about all your techniques is it's literally about saying less and understanding that you can't ever control what somebody else says, thinks, or does, or what their emotional reaction is going to be. All of the power is on your side of the table, and using your breath, using distance, using a technique of saying less so they have less to work with-

   12. JFJefferson Fisher33:35

       Yeah.

   13. MRMel Robbins33:35

       ... lowering your voice, deciding what you're gonna respond to and what deserves a response and what doesn't, and who's worth the time and who isn't, what is worth pouring your energy into. And it... When you start to own that side of the power, you realize you're actually always in control.

   14. JFJefferson Fisher33:54

       Yes, absolutely. The first thing about standing up for yourself is knowing when to do it because not everybody's worth getting out of your chair for. It's that understanding of I will engage this in conversation when I believe it is worth my time and effort into this conversation. You don't have to attend every argument that you're invited to. And so, it is this knowing of I can RSVP no. I can politely decline. I don't have to attend if I don't want to. It's, um... You've all been, we've all been in those meetings where the person who says everything in the meeting is often the person who knows the least.

   15. MRMel Robbins34:33

       Me.

   16. JFJefferson Fisher34:34

       Is the one- (laughs)

   17. MRMel Robbins34:35

       (laughs) It's what I'm realizing.

   18. JFJefferson Fisher34:36

       It's the person who's, who's least, like, in the know of what's happening in the heart of that, that company versus the person who says less. It's often the person who's the most confident because, uh, confidence is very quiet. Insecurities are very loud. There is one simple phrase that I use that whoever's listening can use over and over. "I see things differently," or, "I remember things differently." Period. And you can say that phrase as often as you need it.

7. 35:09 – 42:15

   Understanding Gaslighting

   1. JFJefferson Fisher35:09

      Somebody wants to come at you and they're gaslighting and make... trying to challenge, uh, your truth. Um, "I remember things differently." Period. They wanna do it again because you're not going with them? "I remember things differently." And in my world, people who are trying to gaslight or trying to be the laser and you, the cat, they're just trying to make you go certain directions-

   2. MRMel Robbins35:31

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher35:31

      ... everywhere but the truth. To avoid gaslighting, you just need to stand still and stand firm. "I remember things differently." Period. That often will do everything that they don't want you to do because it's just not giving them the power. You feel like just because they dug a hole, you have to fill it. It's just, just let them dig their own hole. Let, uh, let them fall in it. Let them step into it. Too often, you have this, uh... You've ever been in those arguments where the person goes, "Wait, wait, wait, wait," and they have to go the whole timeline of everything? "No, no, you said this, and then I said this, and then so-and-so came and, and remember the water that came and I spilled that," and they wanna go through this entire timeline. When they do that, often they will tweak that timeline to present the facts most favorable to them-

   4. MRMel Robbins36:19

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher36:20

      ... expecting you to, to say, "Yes, that's exactly what happened."... I remember things differently. That d- you don't have to explain that, you don't need to justify that, 'cause they're not gonna ask you for it, because you're just not going with them.

   6. MRMel Robbins36:33

      When somebody says, "Well, I guess we just have to agree to disagree-"

   7. JFJefferson Fisher36:37

      Yeah.

   8. MRMel Robbins36:38

      ... which always sounds a little passive, is there a response to that, or is that just one of those things that you let hang in the air?

   9. JFJefferson Fisher36:46

      I don't like it, uh, when somebody says, "Well, we can agree to disagree." I open it up and say, "It's okay to disagree with me. You can disagree." It's like you have to give permission. Sometimes people feel like they don't, they can't disagree with you. So open it up to give that permission. If you, if you disagree with me, I wanna know. I want to know. Now, that doesn't mean you have to come to the same conclusion. Often, you can talk o- different ways of how you're gonna disagree with somebody of, "I have a different perspective. I tend to lean differently," something that just says, "Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I have a different approach."

   10. MRMel Robbins37:21

       Hmm.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher37:22

       "I tend to have another approach." And so, it's a matter of, "I see your path of getting there. I see my path of getting there." As long as you're not talking about the other person of, "You are X. You're so X," it's that whole separating the person from the problem.

   12. MRMel Robbins37:40

       I love this, 'cause there, there's somebody in my family who just loves, like, you know the kind of person that just loves to poke.

   13. JFJefferson Fisher37:48

       Yeah.

   14. MRMel Robbins37:48

       They love to just say something controversial. They love to just kinda throw a zinger of a opinion out there, and it's so offensive or, like, eh, that you kinda stop and think, "You don't even believe that."

   15. JFJefferson Fisher38:04

       Right.

   16. MRMel Robbins38:05

       Like, you're just looking to get a rise outta somebody.

   17. JFJefferson Fisher38:08

       Mm-hmm.

   18. MRMel Robbins38:10

       Is that the situation where you would go, "I just think about things differently"?

   19. JFJefferson Fisher38:15

       It's certainly one. You could easily say, "I tend to have another approach. I think differently about that." It's okay to say, "Yeah, I don't have an opinion, or if I had an opinion, I'd give it..." That's pretty easy of, "I don't know enough about that. I'm not really sure." Finding ways of just being, uh, what I like to call the wet blanket.

   20. MRMel Robbins38:34

       The wet blanket.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher38:35

       The wet blanket.

   22. MRMel Robbins38:35

       Just like on a fire-

   23. JFJefferson Fisher38:36

       Exactly.

   24. MRMel Robbins38:36

       ... just throw a wet blanket on the fire, 'cause it, 'cause I, there are times where I literally just wanna be like, "You're a complete idiot!"

   25. JFJefferson Fisher38:44

       Right, right, right.

   26. MRMel Robbins38:44

       And just w- and then I think, "Why, why are you taking the bait?" This is literally like somebody fishing. They're throwing something out to see if you snatch onto it, and then you grab it, and Mm-hmm. And next thing you know, you're in the middle of this thing, and you're not even sure why you're even debating this topic. Mm-hmm. And I have a hard time, I think, being the wet blanket, especially when I think somebody's an idiot.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher39:06

       Well, that's, that goes to your personality. There's nothing wrong with that. I mean, I think-

   28. MRMel Robbins39:09

       I don't know. Like, I feel like maybe-

   29. JFJefferson Fisher39:10

       We need, we need everybody.

   30. MRMel Robbins39:11

       ... I'd be more powerful and calm. Like, you are such a nice, kind person. Like, I can't even imagine going up against you in trial, because it would burn me up about how kind you are and how nice you are in the courtroom. And, you know, and most lawyers are very just-
8. 42:15 – 50:58

   Communicating with Narcissists

   1. JFJefferson Fisher42:15

   2. MRMel Robbins42:15

      How do you deal with a narcissistic personality style-

   3. JFJefferson Fisher42:20

      Hmm.

   4. MRMel Robbins42:20

      ... somebody that is always about them?I'm thinking about a number of friends that are divorced, and have a ex that they share kids with, and you're getting the long texts, and a lot of make wrong, and how do you deal with somebody that is, first of all, never gonna change-

   5. JFJefferson Fisher42:43

      Mm-hmm.

   6. MRMel Robbins42:44

      ...and second, you have to figure out how to navigate communication with them because of the kids, or because you work for this person?

   7. JFJefferson Fisher42:56

      There's an initial mindset you need to have, and that is, know when you're in their game. It's a game of either praise or provoke. If you're not filling them with praise, then they will turn to provoke and start an argument, because it gives them the same amount of satisfaction. They delight in your anger as much as they delight in your praise. It is that sense of control that they have. So, know first when you are on the board and you are playing their game.

   8. MRMel Robbins43:27

      Okay.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher43:27

      So, number one is under, you don't have to play that game.

   10. MRMel Robbins43:30

       Okay.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher43:30

       You do that by, two, adding as much distance as you can. Don't feel like you need to have this rapid fire text exchange. They text, respond the next day. You need to wait. Most people, maybe they need to be reminded, there's not some kinda stop clock on text exchanges of you required to respond. There's no delay of game. You get to choose when you respond, and you're gonna do it when? When you're ready. "I'll respond to you when I've calmed down." "I'll respond when I'm ready." You find ways to distance the emotional reaction that you could have. You also wanna stay neutral, and that means you say very boring things like, "I understand." "Noted." "Good to know." "Got it." These short little things that are gonna give them nothing to feed on, because if you think you're going to solve all your problems in giving them that paragraph of a text, and you think you really just gave them 100 words of pure amazingness that's gonna shut them down and change their life, you're kidding yourself, because what they'll do is just pick out one word from that paragraph and twist it, and not acknowledge anything that you said. So, less is always better when it comes to communicating with those type of behaviors and tendencies.

   12. MRMel Robbins44:54

       Wow. How do you broach with somebody who you care about who's, like, in a bad mood, or they're really intense and they're that way a lot? Like, 'cause I've tried to, and it feels like pokin' a grizzly. Like, "Are you- are you upset about something?" Or, you know-

   13. JFJefferson Fisher45:13

       Yeah.

   14. MRMel Robbins45:13

       ...like, like is there, like, why, like...?

   15. JFJefferson Fisher45:15

       Well, I don't think there's a better way to approach the, "Are you thinking about something?" It's this idea that whatever they say, you need to be a safe space for.

   16. MRMel Robbins45:23

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JFJefferson Fisher45:24

       Because I always wanna be the person that my kids can come to with problems, and if I teach them that, "When you come to me and you're hurting or you're in a bad mood or you're grumpy, and I don't like that, and I don't accept that, and I don't want that, when you're in trouble, don't come to me," they're just... You're not a safe space for that. They'll go be real somewhere else. I can be grumpy. I mean, I can be in a bad mood, and so often you have to remember that when you're talking to somebody that's a spouse or a kid and they are grumpy and you poke that bear, they're shou- they should be in the safest space of their life, to be able to tell you, the person who loves them, how they're feeling, genuinely, authentically. If it's somebody who you don't know that well, then you probably don't wanna ask that question, but you might wanna say, "How are you feeling?"

   18. MRMel Robbins46:18

       (laughs)

   19. JFJefferson Fisher46:18

       (laughs) But I'd be judge, I'd be careful on the assuming that they're feeling a certain way.

   20. MRMel Robbins46:24

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher46:25

       Now, if we wanna tweak this and say what if somebody sends you something that's rude, like a rude comment, that you read an email and it's rude, the kinda thing that you're like, "I can't believe this. Can you believe that somebody would send this?" "Hey, so-and-so, come here. Look- look at this. You see what they wrote? Can you believe that?" Um, it's the, "Did you mean?" "Did you mean to sound rude?" "Did you mean," uh, "for that to sound disrespectful?" The "did you mean" is always a great tweak, and you can use that as well.

   22. MRMel Robbins46:53

       Did you mean?

   23. JFJefferson Fisher46:54

       "Did you mean? Did you mean for that to sound so harsh?"

   24. MRMel Robbins46:57

       Did you mean to teach us all how to be better communicators?

   25. JFJefferson Fisher47:01

       (laughs) Yes, I did.

   26. MRMel Robbins47:02

       (laughs)

   27. JFJefferson Fisher47:03

       Yeah, I did, but it really does help. Anytime you find something that... Uh, we use this a lot, is the, "Did you mean for that to sound short?" You get that text, you know, I do that even with my dad, uh, 'cause my dad's like the one-word texter.

   28. MRMel Robbins47:16

       So

   29. JFJefferson Fisher47:17

       Classic, yeah. So I have to say, "Did you mean for that to sound short?" There's some people that you just shouldn't e- you shouldn't text with or email. Just pick 'em up and f- call 'em. There's people that you're like, "Oh, they send the rudest email," but when you talk on the phone, they're so pleasant. You just know that's not their best mode of communication.

   30. MRMel Robbins47:34

       How is it that you learned to assume good intent about people?

Episode duration: 50:58