How To Handle Difficult People & Take Back Your Peace and Power

Mel Robbins 0:00 It is really unsettling to have to deal with somebody that is a difficult personality.

Jefferson Fisher 0:08 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 0:09 Who, whenever they get overwhelmed or upset, they're like, "Nobody ever listens to me," like, "Ra-ra-ra-ra-ra." How do you respond to that?

Jefferson Fisher 0:15 (laughs) You're going to pose questions for them. "I never listen to you." I, I wanna make sure I understood it, "I never listen to you"? Is it that you feel that I never listen to you? Or is it that I actually objectively never listen?

Mel Robbins 0:30 Holy cow. How do you respond to disrespect?

Jefferson Fisher 0:33 A lot of silence. They're wanting a reaction. So if somebody says something disrespectful, you give enough silence to make sure that it's a little awkward, and then you're going to say something to the effect of, "That's below my standard for a response."

Mel Robbins 0:50 How do you handle someone who's gaslighting you?

Jefferson Fisher 0:53 There is one simple phrase that I use that whoever's listening can use over and over.

Narrator 0:59 (clock ticking)

Mel Robbins 1:01 Hey, it's Mel. I am so excited that you're here. It is always such an honor to spend time with you and to be together. And if you're brand new, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. I also wanna take a moment and acknowledge you for taking time to listen to something that could truly help you live a better life, and I love what you and I are gonna be talking about on today's episode, because we're gonna get to spend some time today with the incredible trial lawyer Jefferson Fisher. I wouldn't be surprised if you've actually seen him online, because every single day, millions of people watch the videos that Jefferson makes from the front seat of his car in between his court cases and meetings with his clients. Jefferson's strategies for handling belittlement, gaslighting, fake apologies, toxic behavior, and difficult conversations are game changers. Boom. He is so good. I'm so excited. So let's get into it. Jefferson Fisher, I am so thrilled you're back on the Mel Robbins Podcast.

Jefferson Fisher 2:00 Thank you for having me.

Mel Robbins 2:00 And congratulations on your new book, The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More.

Jefferson Fisher 2:06 Thank you very much. I'm, uh, very proud of it, very excited to, to help a lot of people.

Mel Robbins 2:10 Well, I can't wait to dig in to the topic of how you can communicate effectively and hold onto your power, particularly when you're dealing with difficult people, challenging situations. But before we get into the tactics, can you just talk to the person listening? And if they take everything that you're about to teach them from your new book and they put it to use in their life, what are they gonna experience?

Jefferson Fisher 2:41 They're going to experience a sense of control in knowing who they are and who they want to be, and by that, I mean they will have a sense of control if they can stand their ground in that next conversation. They can handle that difficult, toxic person in their next conversation. And even more so, they'll be able to navigate who they want to be and where they want to go in their life simply by the words that they say next.

Mel Robbins 3:07 What I love about your work, and the reason why I'm so excited about your book, is because it is really unsettling to have to deal with somebody that is a difficult personality.

Jefferson Fisher 3:23 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 3:24 And I wanna invite you as you're listening to the conversation today and getting to spend some time learning from Jefferson, I want you to think about someone in your life that is really difficult. It might be an ex-spouse, and you had a contentious breakup or divorce, and you have to deal with them because of the kids. Maybe it's your mom or your father-in-law or brother-in-law. Maybe you have a issue with a child or a boss at work, just like tension, frustration, grudges, like all these things that can really make the dynamic challenging, because I know that everything that you're gonna learn from Jefferson today is going to help you hold onto your power whenever you are going to need to deal with this person. And one of the things I'd love for you to just explain is how did the experience of being a trial lawyer really prime you and your expertise in being able to deal effectively with somebody who has a challenging personality or is argumentative? Like, how did that shape you in the way that you approach this?

Jefferson Fisher 4:37 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 4:38 I love that. Well, this is something, uh, you know very well about, that is these difficult personalities, when you talk to them, it's often they're only difficult because they have a, a fear, an insecurity, a need. So instead of seeing it as a conflict, you see it as a bid for connection. They are wanting to feel like they can be heard, that they're important, what they say is, somebody can acknowledge and care about it, versus always having to poke and prod. So when I'm cross-examining somebody, a lot of these techniques that I use has to do with, one, I understand that just because they say something doesn't mean I have to swing at it. Just because they throw a ball doesn't mean I have to swing. You just let the pitch go by. Nobody can make me say anything that I don't want to say. The same way, I don't have to respond even if they send a zinger at me. So there's that sense of control of, "Yeah, you can say what you need to say. That doesn't mean I need to say what I wanna say." So there's this, uh, confidence that you can have from questioning people in the courtroom. Another would be understanding that that conflict, that argument is simply a window into another person's struggle. When I'm representing a client and you're representing another client, a lot of the time, it's a weird occupation, though, if you think about it. You know, I, people hire me to have beef with somebody I don't have...... beef with.

Mel Robbins 6:07 (laughs)

Jefferson Fisher 6:07 And then what makes it even harder is they hire somebody to have beef with me. So when you're arguing with that opposing attorney, he and I or she and I, we- we don't have any problems really. We're just taking on the problems of somebody else, and you can't... Arguments aren't something to- to win, and especially in a courtroom. You just give the evidence and the facts a voice. You advocate for those facts under the given law. So it's very different in that sense, but the same rules apply, that the less you say, the more powerful you sound, the more, uh, confident you express yourself, the more you seem more confident in yourself. So it's these little tips that I like to give from the courtroom that, um, help me understand that difficult people are just people. We can all be difficult.

Mel Robbins 6:58 So the thing that I'm already taking away is that even viewing someone as being super difficult or being narcissistic in their personality type-

Jefferson Fisher 7:11 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 7:11 ... or holding grudges or negative or whatever label you wanna put, that right there is already a problem, because you already flipped it on its head and said, "This is just a person that wants attention. This is a person who wants to be understood, and they don't feel understood, which is why you're getting all that negativity on the surface." And so if you, number one, if I'm listening and hearing you correctly, if you even just flip your viewpoint about this person to, "Hey, this is just another human being who has not the best way of trying to get themselves understood," that right there already lowers the intensity of the interaction.

Jefferson Fisher 7:52 Mm-hmm. Yeah. It- it is that mindset. If you go into it knowing, or telling and convincing yourself that this person is difficult, well, you've... All of a sudden, you've made it difficult for you.

Mel Robbins 8:04 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 8:06 W- what's to stop you from thinking, "This person is somebody I need to make sure I listen to"? Sometimes, the goal is too high. If your goal is, "They need to believe everything that I say, they need to do everything that I do," you're never gonna get that. Instead, if you can go into the conversation with a much smaller goal, like, "I wanna make sure that they understand me. I wanna make sure that I understand them. I wanna make sure that I listen to them without interrupting. I wanna make sure that I listen to the end of their sentences..." That's very rare for people to listen to the end of somebody's sentence. So you find that often, when it's a difficult conversation, you're the one that's called it difficult. You're the one who's made it difficult from the outset for yourself. You haven't had the conversation yet. Now, you might know that person to be- tend to have personalities or behaviors that can be seen objectively as difficult, but often, when you hear that person say, "You don't listen to me," what they're saying on the inside is, "I want to feel heard. I want you to connect with me. I want to be understood."

Mel Robbins 9:10 How do you deal with somebody who's- who, whenever they get overwhelmed or upset, they're like, "Nobody ever listens to me." Like (imitates growling sound) . How do you respond to that?

Jefferson Fisher 9:19 (laughs) If they come in hot and heavy like that-

Mel Robbins 9:22 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 9:22 ... and nobody ever listens to me, well, then you're gonna be the opposite of that. Meaning, you're going to pose questions for them, I mean, for example, that never, that's one word that's an extreme you're going to attach. "I never listen to you. I- I wanna make sure I understood that. I never listen to you." Typically, they'll draw back from that because then you use an extreme. They know you have to listen to them. Then you go pull at another layer. "All right, is it that you feel that I never listen to you, or is it that I actually objectively never listen?" You go it again. "Okay. So I- you feel like I don't listen to that. Well, let's- let's talk about it. Let's- let's keep going. That's helpful to know. I'm here. I'm listening. I'd like to change that." You- you just find ways to go at it- go at it again.

Mel Robbins 10:13 That was masterful.

Jefferson Fisher 10:16 Well, thank you.

Mel Robbins 10:16 And I know I'm not the only one, Jefferson, who is now going to take that script and start using it with people in their life, and I- I'm thinking of some- one person in particular-

Jefferson Fisher 10:28 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 10:28 ... who, whenever they get upset, that's 1,000% what they say.

Jefferson Fisher 10:33 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 10:34 And I now know, 'cause I'm learning from you, listen to the end of the sentence, take a beat. You also did this- this technique that I noticed, where you lowered when I raised my voice.

Jefferson Fisher 10:52 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 10:53 And you slowed the conversation down by simply slowing the pace of the question, and you're asking the question not like a jerk, like, "Oh, so I never listen to you?" 'Cause that's the other thing that people do.

Jefferson Fisher 11:06 Right.

Mel Robbins 11:07 Versus saying, "I never listen to you?"

Jefferson Fisher 11:13 Yeah. It's powerful stuff. If you can, anytime when somebody is going super high-

Mel Robbins 11:18 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 11:18 ... they're yelling, you go even slower. Even lower your voice, because then you're the one who sounds calm and in control, and they're the one that seems like they're on the extremes. Their voice and their brain and their ear will hear that, and they'll start to lower it, 'cause they don't like to be out in the extremes. So they'll start to slow themselves down. What I teach, um, my clients is that the person that you see is often not the person you're talking to, and what I mean by that is I've had a client- uh, not a client, but a witness that I was deposing-

Mel Robbins 11:56 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 11:57 ... and he was ugly with me, and he was big and brash and didn't like any of the questions I was asking him. And I asked him the question, "So what are you struggling with today?" I said, "I- let's just, uh, set aside the case. What are you struggling with right now?"And he went on to tell me about how he was having a hard time with his mother. She- he had just had to put her in a nursing home, assisted living. His father was, passed away, his brother was, uh, out in the oil field, and he was the only one to take care of her, and he was just nervous about it, and he had been getting letters from attorneys.

Mel Robbins 12:34 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 12:35 And so, this big guy who was in front of me, even though he was being ugly to me in that conversation, I knew that the person I saw is not the person I was talking to. You have that when every conversation you have. Yeah, you see this person and they look mad and they look ugly, but who's the person you're talking to? It's, you, the person behind the counter, the person who waits on you, the, the, the cashier. Every one of them is a chance to have connection with that person, because who you talk to right then affects how they talk to everybody else. It's a, it's a ripple effect. S- how you talk to your kids affects how they're gonna talk to their kids. How you talk to the person who takes your order, if you're rude to them, well, they're gonna have a harder time talking to the people that li- they love when they go home. So it is a, it's a big circle of life in a way.

Mel Robbins 13:23 Well, it's also, what you're pointing to is you have power.

Jefferson Fisher 13:26 Oh, yeah.

Mel Robbins 13:27 And we don't, we don't think about it that way. We get so wrapped up in the stress of our day-to-day lives that you forget that your words and your energy has tremendous power-

Jefferson Fisher 13:37 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 13:37 ... and we give it away to other people. And particularly when somebody is a negative person or they're a difficult personality and you start to brace and you believe they have more power because of their bravado or their-

Jefferson Fisher 13:53 Right.

Mel Robbins 13:53 ... whatever, or the fact that they're constantly gaslighting you, or interrupting, or they pull the silent treatment, all of these things that are wildly emotionally immature-

Jefferson Fisher 14:06 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 14:06 ... but feels like they have more power over you, what you're saying is, "No, no, no, no, no. You always have power."

Jefferson Fisher 14:15 And I can tell the listener right now the kind of power that they will have.

Mel Robbins 14:19 What is it?

Jefferson Fisher 14:20 So I have, I've had people ... See, one of the ones recently I had was, there was a, a wife who, um, emailed me and said, "I had an argument with my husband last night and I used one of your phrases," and that was to deescalate a conversation or argument-

Mel Robbins 14:39 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 14:39 ... "I could have done better." She said, "Without hesitation, he said to me, 'I coulda done better too.'" She said, "In our 18 years of marriage, he's never said that to me." There's little phrases that you can find to deescalate that. That's true power that you can have in a relationship. In terms of the ripple effect that they're true- You, you have a power to affect people you will never, ever meet. And it's a wild thought, but it's true. I had somebody, um, email me, this is probably two months ago, who said, "I am somebody who helps with couples at foster homes."

Mel Robbins 15:16 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 15:17 "And these parents were arguing and I used one of your tips on how to communicate with them to get them to stop arguing and agree on something that will forever change their kids' lives." I'll never meet these kids. They'll never know me. They will probably never know the, the guy who, who helped them and emailed me. But it's just little things of what you say today will truly change the future of other people you'll never, ever meet. Uh, uh, people who have autism who can, who can now make friends just by how you say certain things and how they can communicate. It's, everything about you can be compressed into what you say next, and it's a beautiful thing.

Mel Robbins 16:00 What was the phrase that you are hearing that has someone with autism communicate better?

Jefferson Fisher 16:09 They weren't sure exactly how to talk to their friends. They were always afraid that they, um, they were always left out of it.

Mel Robbins 16:17 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 16:17 And so, it was this, this mindset that I tell them is, "You just weren't supposed to be there, and that's okay. You weren't supposed to be there." And that, that mindset, this, this father told me, helped his son understand if he wasn't invited, it just meant he wasn't supposed to be there, and that he-

Mel Robbins 16:34 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 16:34 ... found different ways of going, "Well, this is where I need to be," and finding people who wanted to spend time with him. But he was feeling really hurt that he wasn't getting invited to that party or that thing. And so, it's this mindset of, "That happens, it's okay. You just, you weren't meant to be there. You were meant to be somewhere else." And that made them feel that he could, he could, um, make f- time for friends who cared.

Mel Robbins 16:58 That's beautiful.

Jefferson Fisher 16:59 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 16:59 Really beautiful. So what was the phrase that helped the parents stop arguing in the foster-

Jefferson Fisher 17:09 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 17:09 ... situation?

Jefferson Fisher 17:10 "Is, is this something we have to agree on?" So a tip that I, I use is, "Is this something we have to agree on? Usually, it's not." That stops arguments. It doesn't matter what the topic is. If you need to, you find that you're yang-yangging over the small stuff-

Mel Robbins 17:27 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 17:27 ... the little things, that often leads to the biggest arguments. You'll get in these big arguments and go, "What, what are we even ... How did this even start? How did we even get here?" Often, you can put all that to rest when you just even ask, "Is this something we have to agree on?" If it is, you can ask again, "Is this something we have to agree on right now?" So there's a timing element too, because often, people push arguments on you when you're not ready. They'll push conversation on you when you're not ready. "You got five minutes?" What they really mean is, "Hey, do you have about 48 minutes for me to tell you about-"

Mel Robbins 17:58 (laughs) Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 17:58 "... something that you have no time for and your brain's locked into something else?" And so (laughs) , it's, uh-

Mel Robbins 18:05 Oh my God.

Jefferson Fisher 18:05 ... they often push your own, their own timing on you. So part of that standing up for yourself is defending your own time perimeter.

Mel Robbins 18:13 Can you give me, like... Can you-

Jefferson Fisher 18:16 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 18:16 ...give me an example?

Jefferson Fisher 18:17 Sure. So, let's say you and I, um, are choosing, let's say, the- the best detergent.

Mel Robbins 18:26 (laughs) Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 18:26 Okay? I don't know. That's just the first thing that came to mind. Um...

Mel Robbins 18:30 So, let's say you're standing in the aisle at the grocery store-

Jefferson Fisher 18:34 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 18:35 ...and you grab detergent, and your spouse then questions the detergent.

Jefferson Fisher 18:41 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 18:41 And these are these little things that become big things.

Jefferson Fisher 18:45 And that's what happens. The- the biggest, typically your biggest arguments stem from the smallest little inconvenience, especially if you're married.

Mel Robbins 18:52 And you're saying that you're standing there in the grocery aisle and you say, "Do we have to agree on this right now?"

Jefferson Fisher 18:58 Exactly. "Is this something we have to agree on at this moment, right now?" And they go, "Mm, no."

Mel Robbins 19:04 No, it's not that big of a deal.

Jefferson Fisher 19:05 Typ- yeah, but in that moment, just if you're not thinking about it, you start getting worked up.

Mel Robbins 19:11 And what I love about it, though, is it's a very kind way to cue someone else that they're pushing an argument on you.

Jefferson Fisher 19:19 Absolutely.

Mel Robbins 19:20 What is the best way to handle the "Knock, knock, knock, you got five minutes?" And you know that with this person, it's 48.

Jefferson Fisher 19:29 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 19:30 How do you respond to that to protect your time?

Jefferson Fisher 19:32 If the automatic feeling within you is no, then the answer is no, you don't. It's setting it later. "I don't right now. Can- can we schedule this for tomorrow? What's your next week look like?" Find ways to push it out, because what you'll find is that five minutes they needed right then, that issue gets solved without you. They didn't really need it. They just came to talk.

Mel Robbins 19:56 You mentioned that there are a number of phrases that you teach people to help you deescalate. Are there others that come to mind other than, "Is this something we need to agree on right now?"

Jefferson Fisher 20:07 There are phrases, I'd say, of, to help pull down defensiveness, 'cause often when I say something, the- the- the tendency, the default is for somebody to get defensive.

Mel Robbins 20:19 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 20:20 And that's- that's natural. It's your... It's biological. It's your body going, "Oh, I- I perceive a threat. I'm gonna send it right back." That's what fight or flight is in that element. The fight is, "I will throw hard words at you. I want words to hurt you." Or if you're running from it, it's the, "I gotta get outta here," slam the door. "I gotta hang up." Finding different ways to deescalate situations. And what I like to tell them is, you tell them, uh, what you learned. So, "After listening to you, I- I learned that this topic is important to you." Or you tell them that they've been helpful. "That's helpful to know." Simple as that. Or you tell them what you agree on, using the word agree. That does not mean you have to agree with what they said. It just means, they just need to hear that word. In other words, instead of focusing on the content of that conversation, it is, "I agree that this is something we need to talk about. I think... I agree that this is a conversation worth having." Boom. Like, that right there all of a sudden pulls down their defensiveness. They heard the word I agree. They heard that this conversation is worth talking about. Great, they don't have to continue to push and feel defensive about it. They don't have to keep proving to you on something.

Mel Robbins 21:33 It goes back to your earlier point that it's a person that doesn't feel like they're being heard.

Jefferson Fisher 21:38 Exactly.

Mel Robbins 21:39 Huh.

Jefferson Fisher 21:40 And if you need to, like, shift away from that, the, uh, "Is this something we need to agree on?" I like, "I could do better." I like, "Maybe so" or "Maybe you're right." Those are two that I use often. If I ever get an insult maybe or a rude comment in the litigation world, someone makes some kind of offhand comment, um, I say, "Well, maybe you're right." "Maybe so." "Who am I to say?" It's, uh, that element of I get to control entirely what you say. Is that gonna affect me or not? I have entire control over that.

Mel Robbins 22:19 You forget that-

Jefferson Fisher 22:20 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 22:20 ...because, you know, you... The- the, what's, what people say, it does have an emotional impact on you. You are going to react, but you get to choose how you respond.

Jefferson Fisher 22:30 Yeah, especially if you always pick it up and carry it.

Mel Robbins 22:33 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 22:34 So, when it comes to, uh, taking things personally-

Mel Robbins 22:36 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 22:36 ...for example, a quick tool for that is... What I tell myself is I'll just say, "Put it down, Jefferson." When I'm taking things personally, I'm picking up what nobody has asked me to carry. I'm choosing to carry it, and before I know it, I'm just, I can't even carry it anymore.

Mel Robbins 22:54 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 22:54 And to me, um, how often you take things personally is a direct reflection of how much grace you give other people.

Mel Robbins 23:03 Oh.

Jefferson Fisher 23:04 If you never give somebody the benefit of the doubt, it's- it's heavy. It's a heavy proposition if you never give somebody the benefit of the doubt instead of just waiting to see if truly that offhand look meant to say something to you.

Mel Robbins 23:19 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 23:20 We recognize it as that, "I thought you were mad at me."

Mel Robbins 23:24 Yeah. You-

Jefferson Fisher 23:25 And they never were.

Mel Robbins 23:25 ...immediately internalize it and you have no

Mel Robbins 23:27 idea what's actually going on.

Jefferson Fisher 23:28 Yeah, somebody... You pass by somebody in the hallway and they didn't say hello. You go, "Oh, they must be mad at me." No, they were just focusing on other things in their life.

Mel Robbins 23:37 How do you handle somebody that kinda belittles you? They're like picking on your weight or they're-

Jefferson Fisher 23:44 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 23:44 ...constantly like, "Are you still single?" Like, you know-

Jefferson Fisher 23:47 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 23:47 ...like people, like especially people-

Jefferson Fisher 23:49 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 23:49 ...that you're close with have a way of belittling you.

Jefferson Fisher 23:52 Right.

Mel Robbins 23:52 What- what- what do you do in those situations?

Jefferson Fisher 23:55 When somebody is belittling you or giving you a insult and that hurtful comment, you make them repeat it, because what they're hoping to do in that belittling comment is get that reaction out of you.And instead, you find a way to take all the fun out of it. So when you ask them to repeat what they said, they're, you're not giving them that hit of dopamine that they were expecting from your reaction. They're not getting that, that response time from you. Instead, you're delaying that gratification for them. Then it's just not worth it. Then it's just not fun. And so when you ask them to repeat it, to say, "I need you to say that again-"

Mel Robbins 24:32 I'm thinking of-

Jefferson Fisher 24:33 Oh, you're very-

Mel Robbins 24:33 ... of, like, using this with-

Jefferson Fisher 24:34 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 24:34 ... a couple people in my life.

Jefferson Fisher 24:36 Yeah. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 24:37 Uh, we need to role play this.

Jefferson Fisher 24:39 Sure.

Mel Robbins 24:40 Um, I'm trying to think of a scenario.

Jefferson Fisher 24:41 Like you just said right there, um, you're still single.

Mel Robbins 24:45 I need you to repeat that.

Jefferson Fisher 24:46 Yeah. You, so-

Mel Robbins 24:48 (laughs)

Jefferson Fisher 24:48 Exactly. And then I'm not gonna wanna say that again, because now that spotlight is on me. And then also, what you lead up with that is you ask questions of intent. For example, "Did you say that to hurt me?" And now it's this mirror that they feel like, "Well, why did, why did I say that? Oh, okay," and then they start to backtrack. Then you don't have to say anything. But if, often, I can just repeat what they said. So if y- uh, somebody says to you, uh, "Oh, so you're still single? I need you to say that again," most likely, they're not going to say that again. But if they do, then you can even repeat what they said. "I'm still single. That's what you asked me?" And all of a sudden, they realize, "This isn't fun." They're not gonna ask that kinda thing again.

Mel Robbins 25:38 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 25:39 Or you just ask that question of, "Did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to offend me?" "Oh, no, no, no, no. I didn't say that. I, uh, well, what I meant was..." And all of a sudden, they're backing away, because they know you're gonna stand your ground.

Mel Robbins 25:51 Wow. This is, like, very eye-opening, because I can see both situations where I need to use it, and I can see situations where I probably say things, and I'm thinking particularly to my adult kids, that probably feels belittling. I, I can think about, like, our, our daughter out in Los Angeles, and every time I see her, she's wearing a piece of clothing that I (laughs) don't recognize. And so I think to myself, and oftentimes I will say, "Is that new?" And I'm thinking in my mind, "Where, w- w- where do you get the money for this," you know?

Jefferson Fisher 26:32 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 26:32 Like that kinda thing. And then she's there like, "Yeah, I thrifted it," and there's this little tiff thing. But if she were to say to me-

Jefferson Fisher 26:38 If she was to ask you the question-

Mel Robbins 26:39 ... "Are you trying to embarrass me?" Like, or, or like-

Jefferson Fisher 26:41 Yeah, exactly. "Are you, are you trying to insinuate something? Uh, are you trying to say something that you're not wanting to tell me?"

Mel Robbins 26:47 'Cause you're right. The question is what I'm saying on the surface, but-

Jefferson Fisher 26:53 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 26:53 ... what I'm actually accusing her of is not being responsible with her money.

Jefferson Fisher 26:57 It's that mirror.

Mel Robbins 26:58 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 26:58 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 26:59 Yes. So-

Jefferson Fisher 27:00 And so it takes away the power of their insult-

Mel Robbins 27:03 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 27:03 ... when you can take all the fun out of it. You take all the oxygen out of their room, and they realize that they are not gonna be able to control you with that reaction that they were hoping to get from you.

Mel Robbins 27:14 Holy cow. How do you respond to disrespect?

Jefferson Fisher 27:17 A lot of silence. So often, if you just wait 10 seconds, you're gonna add distance between what they said and how you're going to respond, and that makes it very clear, 'cause what they're wanting when somebody's disrespectful is, same way with belittling, they're wanting a reaction. They're saying this to get something out of you, 'cause in that moment, they're feeling something. Whether it's a fear, an insecurity, whatever it is, you're understanding you're not gonna, you're not going to deliver on that same plane that they are. You're not gonna be on that same level. So if somebody says something disrespectful, you give enough silence to make sure that it's a little awkward, and then you're going to say something to the effect of, "That's below my standard for a response." And then all of a sudden, they feel like the, the dynamic has been flipped. "That's below my standard of respect." Something as simple as that. All of a sudden, you're now making it clear that, "What you just said was beneath me, and I don't respond to things that are beneath me in that way." And so now you're taking control of it. Now you're leaning into it. What they thought was meant as a disrespect, they're now understanding that they're in the wrong place.

Mel Robbins 28:36 What do you do... I, I, I was with somebody yesterday who had just visited their mother, and I said to her, you know, like, "How did it go?" And she said, "Well, it was fine, but it's my mother, and the thing that drives me crazy is she is extremely disrespectful-"

Jefferson Fisher 28:53 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 28:54 "... to anybody that is waiting on us at a restaurant, like so much so that the owner came over and said something to her." What do you... Is there a way to respond when someone else is throwing a fit or is being disrespectful? You know what I mean? Like, somebody's getting testy at the airport, or, and they're, they're with you. It's not a complete stranger. Is there something that you could say to somebody in that situation?

Jefferson Fisher 29:25 Depends, uh, how your relationship is with that person. I would advise that whoever they're disrespecting, you don't join in it, and you make it clear that that is not your behavior. So you're gonna be the person that is kind to this person. So I've had it before. My grandfather came with me to Walmart. It was a terrible time. Uh, and- (laughs)

Mel Robbins 29:45 (laughs)

Jefferson Fisher 29:45 ... he was, he was in a bad mood, and he was crotchety to everybody we talked to. But I was the one that was, "Thank you so much for helping us. I appreciate it. Thank you so much," being overly, "Hey, I understand. Thank you." Making that eye contact with this other person of, "This other person's not having a good time," and then you have that conversation. I had to have that conversation with my grandfather, and I-

Mel Robbins 30:06 How did you do that?

Jefferson Fisher 30:07 I had to put a boundary, uh, a very firm boundary of, "If this is the way you're gonna talk to people, I can't come with you."... if you don't change the tone in which you're talking to people, Pop, I c- I can't, I can't come." And so, it very was, uh, "Wh- what, what am I saying?" "Uh, you're not being s- respectful to people." "Yes, I am." "I would not be telling you this if you had been respectful to people." And, and it's just having this, this conversation where they need to... Uh, it's the people you love, and often you have to be their, their biggest mirror of protecting them also for how other people see them. And so, I love my grandfather. I want other people to love him, and that means I also have to make sure that I need to put... I need to prepare him in a loving way of being very direct if this is how you're talking to people.

Mel Robbins 30:58 Has he changed?

Jefferson Fisher 30:59 He has.

Mel Robbins 31:00 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 31:00 We also just don't go to Walmart, so... (laughs)

Mel Robbins 31:04 (laughs) Oh my gosh.

Mel Robbins 31:05 Do you have strategies, Jefferson, for dealing with your own emotions when you're dealing with somebody who's got a very difficult personality?

Jefferson Fisher 31:14 My breath. It is crazy to me how your body controls what you say. Like, when you are feeling threatened, so maybe, maybe you say something that challenges my credibility or I feel undermined. My body says, "I feel threatened about this. There is a threat. I need to do something, either defend myself or get out of that situation."

Mel Robbins 31:37 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 31:37 And when it turns to the fight, I will hold my breath. Why? Because your muscles are getting tight. They're ready to react. Your shoulders go tense. You feel it in your ears. So that's why if you're not breathing, you will say things that are louder. You will yell 'cause you're trying to make the threat go away. But if you breathe, or I'd say a conversational breath, you take that, let your breath be the first word that you say, then you're gonna have a lot more control over what you're going to say next. So, in terms of re- regulating my emotions, it is simply knowing that I can't control anything that they do or say-

Mel Robbins 32:15 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 32:15 ... but I'm the one that can control everything. Silence can never be misquoted. So, it is often a lot stronger to say nothing at all than to send that one little thing that you think is gonna win it, because if you think you can win an argument, you don't win anything, Mel. You just... you lose your credibility. You've, you've lost that connection. I mean, what have you got? Now, now it's just aw- you, you want awkward silence between the two of you? You still have to possibly work with this person, live with this person. You've now just made it really awkward for the next few days before you make up. So, you find ways to always just kinda control your, your breath and your shoulders.

Mel Robbins 32:56 And shoulders, like pull them back?

Jefferson Fisher 32:59 Uh, no. You're putting them down.

Mel Robbins 33:01 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 33:01 Often, when you have your shoulders next to your ears, it's, it's tension, makes you cranky.

Mel Robbins 33:05 Well, what's interesting about all your techniques is it's literally about saying less and understanding that you can't ever control what somebody else says, thinks, or does, or what their emotional reaction is going to be. All of the power is on your side of the table, and using your breath, using distance, using a technique of saying less so they have less to work with-

Jefferson Fisher 33:35 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 33:35 ... lowering your voice, deciding what you're gonna respond to and what deserves a response and what doesn't, and who's worth the time and who isn't, what is worth pouring your energy into. And it... When you start to own that side of the power, you realize you're actually always in control.

Jefferson Fisher 33:54 Yes, absolutely. The first thing about standing up for yourself is knowing when to do it because not everybody's worth getting out of your chair for. It's that understanding of I will engage this in conversation when I believe it is worth my time and effort into this conversation. You don't have to attend every argument that you're invited to. And so, it is this knowing of I can RSVP no. I can politely decline. I don't have to attend if I don't want to. It's, um... You've all been, we've all been in those meetings where the person who says everything in the meeting is often the person who knows the least.

Mel Robbins 34:33 Me.

Jefferson Fisher 34:34 Is the one- (laughs)

Mel Robbins 34:35 (laughs) It's what I'm realizing.

Jefferson Fisher 34:36 It's the person who's, who's least, like, in the know of what's happening in the heart of that, that company versus the person who says less. It's often the person who's the most confident because, uh, confidence is very quiet. Insecurities are very loud. There is one simple phrase that I use that whoever's listening can use over and over. "I see things differently," or, "I remember things differently." Period. And you can say that phrase as often as you need it.

Jefferson Fisher 35:09 Somebody wants to come at you and they're gaslighting and make... trying to challenge, uh, your truth. Um, "I remember things differently." Period. They wanna do it again because you're not going with them? "I remember things differently." And in my world, people who are trying to gaslight or trying to be the laser and you, the cat, they're just trying to make you go certain directions-

Mel Robbins 35:31 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 35:31 ... everywhere but the truth. To avoid gaslighting, you just need to stand still and stand firm. "I remember things differently." Period. That often will do everything that they don't want you to do because it's just not giving them the power. You feel like just because they dug a hole, you have to fill it. It's just, just let them dig their own hole. Let, uh, let them fall in it. Let them step into it. Too often, you have this, uh... You've ever been in those arguments where the person goes, "Wait, wait, wait, wait," and they have to go the whole timeline of everything? "No, no, you said this, and then I said this, and then so-and-so came and, and remember the water that came and I spilled that," and they wanna go through this entire timeline. When they do that, often they will tweak that timeline to present the facts most favorable to them-

Mel Robbins 36:19 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 36:20 ... expecting you to, to say, "Yes, that's exactly what happened."... I remember things differently. That d- you don't have to explain that, you don't need to justify that, 'cause they're not gonna ask you for it, because you're just not going with them.

Mel Robbins 36:33 When somebody says, "Well, I guess we just have to agree to disagree-"

Jefferson Fisher 36:37 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 36:38 ... which always sounds a little passive, is there a response to that, or is that just one of those things that you let hang in the air?

Jefferson Fisher 36:46 I don't like it, uh, when somebody says, "Well, we can agree to disagree." I open it up and say, "It's okay to disagree with me. You can disagree." It's like you have to give permission. Sometimes people feel like they don't, they can't disagree with you. So open it up to give that permission. If you, if you disagree with me, I wanna know. I want to know. Now, that doesn't mean you have to come to the same conclusion. Often, you can talk o- different ways of how you're gonna disagree with somebody of, "I have a different perspective. I tend to lean differently," something that just says, "Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I have a different approach."

Mel Robbins 37:21 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 37:22 "I tend to have another approach." And so, it's a matter of, "I see your path of getting there. I see my path of getting there." As long as you're not talking about the other person of, "You are X. You're so X," it's that whole separating the person from the problem.

Mel Robbins 37:40 I love this, 'cause there, there's somebody in my family who just loves, like, you know the kind of person that just loves to poke.

Jefferson Fisher 37:48 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 37:48 They love to just say something controversial. They love to just kinda throw a zinger of a opinion out there, and it's so offensive or, like, eh, that you kinda stop and think, "You don't even believe that."

Jefferson Fisher 38:04 Right.

Mel Robbins 38:05 Like, you're just looking to get a rise outta somebody.

Jefferson Fisher 38:08 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 38:10 Is that the situation where you would go, "I just think about things differently"?

Jefferson Fisher 38:15 It's certainly one. You could easily say, "I tend to have another approach. I think differently about that." It's okay to say, "Yeah, I don't have an opinion, or if I had an opinion, I'd give it..." That's pretty easy of, "I don't know enough about that. I'm not really sure." Finding ways of just being, uh, what I like to call the wet blanket.

Mel Robbins 38:34 The wet blanket.

Jefferson Fisher 38:35 The wet blanket.

Mel Robbins 38:35 Just like on a fire-

Jefferson Fisher 38:36 Exactly.

Mel Robbins 38:36 ... just throw a wet blanket on the fire, 'cause it, 'cause I, there are times where I literally just wanna be like, "You're a complete idiot!"

Jefferson Fisher 38:44 Right, right, right.

Mel Robbins 38:44 And just w- and then I think, "Why, why are you taking the bait?" This is literally like somebody fishing. They're throwing something out to see if you snatch onto it, and then you grab it, and Mm-hmm. And next thing you know, you're in the middle of this thing, and you're not even sure why you're even debating this topic. Mm-hmm. And I have a hard time, I think, being the wet blanket, especially when I think somebody's an idiot.

Jefferson Fisher 39:06 Well, that's, that goes to your personality. There's nothing wrong with that. I mean, I think-

Mel Robbins 39:09 I don't know. Like, I feel like maybe-

Jefferson Fisher 39:10 We need, we need everybody.

Mel Robbins 39:11 ... I'd be more powerful and calm. Like, you are such a nice, kind person. Like, I can't even imagine going up against you in trial, because it would burn me up about how kind you are and how nice you are in the courtroom. And, you know, and most lawyers are very just-

Jefferson Fisher 39:26 I've had that comment.

Mel Robbins 39:28 You have?

Jefferson Fisher 39:28 Yeah. That they didn't, they... I made it difficult because I never gave them an enemy. So I never gave them somebody I did not like. Same way for a jury. If, as long as the jury likes you, they... Yeah, you, you're, you're 90% there.

Mel Robbins 39:45 Jefferson, I think you actually just shared the secret of life.

Jefferson Fisher 39:48 Yeah. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 39:49 No, seriously.

Jefferson Fisher 39:50 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 39:50 Don't give someone else an enemy.

Jefferson Fisher 39:53 Hmm, yeah.

Mel Robbins 39:54 Like, if you go... And this isn't about, like, being somebody-

Jefferson Fisher 39:57 Soft.

Mel Robbins 39:58 ... who is soft.

Jefferson Fisher 39:59 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 39:59 And it's not about letting people trample all over you. It's actually an incredibly powerful position to be mindful and protective of your time and your energy and who is worth your time and what is worth your energy and what conversations deserve a response and which ones deserve silence.

Jefferson Fisher 40:17 I like to call it being in the pocket. In other words-

Mel Robbins 40:20 What does that mean?

Jefferson Fisher 40:20 Well, in, um... I'm a musician, and I-

Mel Robbins 40:23 Oh, oh, really?

Jefferson Fisher 40:24 Yeah. I, I play drums. And, uh-

Mel Robbins 40:26 For real?

Jefferson Fisher 40:27 ... I play several instruments, but yeah, a drum set.

Mel Robbins 40:28 I can't imagine you behind-

Jefferson Fisher 40:29 Oh.

Mel Robbins 40:29 ... a drum set going absolutely in-

Jefferson Fisher 40:32 You should've seen me-

Mel Robbins 40:32 Did you ever have long hair?

Jefferson Fisher 40:33 I did, yeah. I had the whole, like... Yeah. I've been in multiple bands. There's a whole thing. Um, and-

Mel Robbins 40:39 Oh, wow. Okay, now.

Jefferson Fisher 40:42 So p- (laughs) But part of it-

Mel Robbins 40:43 See, you, this is your point. The person you're talking to is not the person that they are.

Jefferson Fisher 40:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mel Robbins 40:47 Okay?

Jefferson Fisher 40:47 Exactly, yeah. Um, and it's this idea of when you're in the groove, and everybody's bouncing their head, it sounds great. You're not lagging. You're not loud and forceful, and you're not calling attention to yourself. You're just in the pocket. I know I don't have to do anything crazy. I just stay right in rhythm with the conversation. There is a strength to being the, the peacekeeper. There is a strength to being the calm mind. That does not mean you can't kick back and have fun. It doesn't mean that you're just the wet blanket on every social situation.

Mel Robbins 41:19 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 41:20 But when it comes to difficult people, when it comes to real conflict in your life, instead of choosing to say, "This is a difficult person," it's just a, a difficult problem for the two of you to discuss. And if you can get their help with it, if you can understand that-

Mel Robbins 41:37 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 41:37 ... they're grumpy because of something that somebody texted them this morning, and they were feeling it before they even entered the room, that the problem is not you, instead of taking it so personally, and just seeing the problem for what it is, you're gonna come away knowing that you have all the control in that situation. And, and that's a really empowering thought.

Mel Robbins 41:57 Well, what I love about what you're saying, and this is true, is that most of us, I believe, especially when we are either uncomfortable, or we have to have a difficult conversation, we focus on this idea that you have to win.

Jefferson Fisher 42:14 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 42:15 How do you deal with a narcissistic personality style-

Jefferson Fisher 42:20 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 42:20 ... somebody that is always about them?I'm thinking about a number of friends that are divorced, and have a ex that they share kids with, and you're getting the long texts, and a lot of make wrong, and how do you deal with somebody that is, first of all, never gonna change-

Jefferson Fisher 42:43 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 42:44 ...and second, you have to figure out how to navigate communication with them because of the kids, or because you work for this person?

Jefferson Fisher 42:56 There's an initial mindset you need to have, and that is, know when you're in their game. It's a game of either praise or provoke. If you're not filling them with praise, then they will turn to provoke and start an argument, because it gives them the same amount of satisfaction. They delight in your anger as much as they delight in your praise. It is that sense of control that they have. So, know first when you are on the board and you are playing their game.

Mel Robbins 43:27 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 43:27 So, number one is under, you don't have to play that game.

Mel Robbins 43:30 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 43:30 You do that by, two, adding as much distance as you can. Don't feel like you need to have this rapid fire text exchange. They text, respond the next day. You need to wait. Most people, maybe they need to be reminded, there's not some kinda stop clock on text exchanges of you required to respond. There's no delay of game. You get to choose when you respond, and you're gonna do it when? When you're ready. "I'll respond to you when I've calmed down." "I'll respond when I'm ready." You find ways to distance the emotional reaction that you could have. You also wanna stay neutral, and that means you say very boring things like, "I understand." "Noted." "Good to know." "Got it." These short little things that are gonna give them nothing to feed on, because if you think you're going to solve all your problems in giving them that paragraph of a text, and you think you really just gave them 100 words of pure amazingness that's gonna shut them down and change their life, you're kidding yourself, because what they'll do is just pick out one word from that paragraph and twist it, and not acknowledge anything that you said. So, less is always better when it comes to communicating with those type of behaviors and tendencies.

Mel Robbins 44:54 Wow. How do you broach with somebody who you care about who's, like, in a bad mood, or they're really intense and they're that way a lot? Like, 'cause I've tried to, and it feels like pokin' a grizzly. Like, "Are you- are you upset about something?" Or, you know-

Jefferson Fisher 45:13 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 45:13 ...like, like is there, like, why, like...?

Jefferson Fisher 45:15 Well, I don't think there's a better way to approach the, "Are you thinking about something?" It's this idea that whatever they say, you need to be a safe space for.

Mel Robbins 45:23 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 45:24 Because I always wanna be the person that my kids can come to with problems, and if I teach them that, "When you come to me and you're hurting or you're in a bad mood or you're grumpy, and I don't like that, and I don't accept that, and I don't want that, when you're in trouble, don't come to me," they're just... You're not a safe space for that. They'll go be real somewhere else. I can be grumpy. I mean, I can be in a bad mood, and so often you have to remember that when you're talking to somebody that's a spouse or a kid and they are grumpy and you poke that bear, they're shou- they should be in the safest space of their life, to be able to tell you, the person who loves them, how they're feeling, genuinely, authentically. If it's somebody who you don't know that well, then you probably don't wanna ask that question, but you might wanna say, "How are you feeling?"

Mel Robbins 46:18 (laughs)

Jefferson Fisher 46:18 (laughs) But I'd be judge, I'd be careful on the assuming that they're feeling a certain way.

Mel Robbins 46:24 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 46:25 Now, if we wanna tweak this and say what if somebody sends you something that's rude, like a rude comment, that you read an email and it's rude, the kinda thing that you're like, "I can't believe this. Can you believe that somebody would send this?" "Hey, so-and-so, come here. Look- look at this. You see what they wrote? Can you believe that?" Um, it's the, "Did you mean?" "Did you mean to sound rude?" "Did you mean," uh, "for that to sound disrespectful?" The "did you mean" is always a great tweak, and you can use that as well.

Mel Robbins 46:53 Did you mean?

Jefferson Fisher 46:54 "Did you mean? Did you mean for that to sound so harsh?"

Mel Robbins 46:57 Did you mean to teach us all how to be better communicators?

Jefferson Fisher 47:01 (laughs) Yes, I did.

Mel Robbins 47:02 (laughs)

Jefferson Fisher 47:03 Yeah, I did, but it really does help. Anytime you find something that... Uh, we use this a lot, is the, "Did you mean for that to sound short?" You get that text, you know, I do that even with my dad, uh, 'cause my dad's like the one-word texter.

Mel Robbins 47:16 So

Jefferson Fisher 47:17 Classic, yeah. So I have to say, "Did you mean for that to sound short?" There's some people that you just shouldn't e- you shouldn't text with or email. Just pick 'em up and f- call 'em. There's people that you're like, "Oh, they send the rudest email," but when you talk on the phone, they're so pleasant. You just know that's not their best mode of communication.

Mel Robbins 47:34 How is it that you learned to assume good intent about people?

Jefferson Fisher 47:41 You gotta believe it. There's a, a sense that goes to who you are and just your philosophy on life, and I believe that- that most people are, are good. They want to do good. And there are people in this world that are, are truly hurting, and they came in hurting long before they met me. And so, there are certain things that I know I could say that could be a trigger for somebody that I know nothing about, and I don't know why it's a trigger. I don't know their childhood. I don't know that one thing that they're insecure about. You ever said something and you said something about their job, and all of a sudden, it's like, "Oh, well, you think your job's better than mine?" What you're hearing is just insecurity. It's, that's- that's what you're hearing. So, you have to find the way... My dad would tell me, "The issue that they're giving you is not the real issue."Meaning, there's always something that's layered underneath that, and you just have to be curious enough and patient enough to find out.

Mel Robbins 48:40 What are your parting words?

Jefferson Fisher 48:42 Hmm. I'm gonna tell people that when you, the next time you are in a difficult conversation with people, number one, I want you to say what you have to say with control. It means you're gonna control your breath, control your volume, control your body. And understand, you don't have to say anything that you don't want to say. Two, I want them to say and speak with confidence. That means using an assertive voice that doesn't give over apologies that mean nothing or say, "I hate to bother you," when it means nothing at all. And three, I want them to say things to connect. In other words, say what you mean and mean what you say. If you need to deliver bad news, deliver it. If you need to give a compliment, give it. And at the end of the day, they need to follow their heart and be true.

Mel Robbins 49:27 Jefferson Fisher, thank you.

Jefferson Fisher 49:30 Thank you for having me.

Mel Robbins 49:31 You're freaking awesome.

Jefferson Fisher 49:33 Thanks, Mel.

Mel Robbins 49:34 I wanna make sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And what I loved about the conversation today is you were reminded of the truth. You have the power. Stop giving it to other people and to especially people that are difficult. Your power is in your response, it's in your breath, it's in what you say and when you say it. And I know that you now feel empowered based on everything that Jefferson just shared with you today, so please go use it, and I'll see you in the next episode. And I wanna thank you here on YouTube. Oh, my gosh. I love spending time together with you. Thank you for making it all the way to the end of the episode. And if you made it this far, I have a request. Could you just click right here and subscribe to the channel? It's free, and it really helps me. And I know that you're the kinda person that really wants to help people that help you, and it lets me know that you're enjoying the content, which I just love knowing that you're enjoying it. So thank you for doing that. And if you loved this episode with Jefferson Fisher on how you can deal with difficult people, you're really gonna love this episode next where I'm gonna share my number one tool to create more control and emotional peace with the people in your life, even the most difficult ones. I cannot wait to see you there.