The Mel Robbins PodcastHow to Live a Meaningful Life & Design the Future You Want
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
60 min read · 12,450 words- 0:00 – 2:18
Meet the Guests
- MRMel Robbins
It's time to design your life. Dave Evans and Bill Burnett are the founders of the Life Design Lab at Stanford University, which has been taught for almost 20 years, and is now being taught at over 600 universities. You can experience more meaning and fulfillment in your life, so grab your seat because class is in session.
- DEDave Evans
The best way to design your life is to recognize there is no getting you right. There is no right life. There's just getting it going. You have it in you to be something. You find your way by living into your life. You build your way forward. There is no knowing. There is only doing, learning, and growing. The job is not working, the marriage isn't working, there's something I'm really unhappy about, but that doesn't mean there aren't other parts of your life where more meaning and more aliveness are lurking latently, waiting for you to discover them. Don't let those go.
- BBBill Burnett
There's more life in you than you think. There's more possibilities than you think. Just try something. Try something really small, and see if you can find that little piece of joy or that- just like a pointer towards something that, that wakes you up. We know you can do it.
- DEDave Evans
At the end of the day, what we're really doing, we're just giving people permission to live their lives. So instead of working on the what is the meaning of life, we're here to give you tools to design more meaning in life.
- MRMel Robbins
I am so excited for you to experience this episode. It is incredible! You're gonna love these two professors. But first, I have an ask of you. See, I just learned from my team that 53% of you that watch the Mel Robbins Podcast here on YouTube are not subscribers. I have this goal that by the end of the year, that number drops to 50%, so I'm just talking 3%, that 50% of the people that watch here on YouTube are subscribers. It's the best way that you can support me and the team. If the subscribe button is lit up, it means you're not a subscriber. Just hit subscribe. It's free, you're not gonna miss a thing, and it tells us you love this podcast, you love the world-renowned experts that we're bringing you here for free. You love this as a resource. I really, really, really appreciate it, and you know what else? I appreciate you. I love that you spend your time watching something that's helping you create a more meaningful life, and that's exactly what this episode is gonna do. So let's get into it.
- 2:18 – 6:01
What to Do When You’re Stuck in Life
- MRMel Robbins
Bill Barnett and Dave Evans, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
- DEDave Evans
Bill, thanks for having us. We're thrilled to be here.
- BBBill Burnett
Yeah, this is fantastic. We're excited.
- MRMel Robbins
You two have been at the top of my list since I started this.
- BBBill Burnett
[chuckles]
- MRMel Robbins
I have been waiting-
- BBBill Burnett
[chuckles]
- MRMel Robbins
-for this moment. I hope you don't disappoint me. No, I'm just kidding! [laughing]
- DEDave Evans
You could've called sooner. We would've come sooner.
- BBBill Burnett
Yeah, yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
[laughing] Oh, my gosh.
- DEDave Evans
Okay.
- MRMel Robbins
Here's where I wanna start. How will my life be different if I take to heart everything that you're about to share with us today-
- DEDave Evans
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... and I apply it to my life?
- DEDave Evans
You're gonna get freer. You're gonna feel more agency in your life. You're gonna realize you actually know how to find your way, and as you go along it, you can make meaning every day.
- BBBill Burnett
You know, everybody's so busy, and there's so much going on, it, it, it's all... You're gonna learn that it's not about cramming more stuff in. It's about getting more out of what you've already got, and what you can, you know, what you can design for. Um, and I think that helps people just relax, you know-
- DEDave Evans
Mm
- BBBill Burnett
... and understand that they, they probably have enough.
- MRMel Robbins
Bill, what do you think it is about the popularity of your, both of your books and the course? What does all of this interest say to you about what we're searching for?
- BBBill Burnett
Yeah, well, I mean, particularly amongst the students, and I've taught at Stanford, and I've taught all over, all over the place, and we've got over 600 schools now teaching the class. We've trained 600 schools. And with the students, it's, it's really, it's really clear, and it's gotten kind of worse lately, in the last-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm
- BBBill Burnett
... five, or six, or seven years, social media and other things. It's, um, you know, will I find a good... Will I have a good life? Will I find a good job in it? You know, what, what's, what's... I want meaning and purpose, but people tell me jobs aren't purposeful. Uh, the Gallup Poll says 70% of Americans are disengaged from their job. Is that the world I'm going into? It's gonna be that bad. And so the, for the students, it's that kind of anxiety about, "How do I get started?" And, and I had s- been in office hours for students for years, and years, and years before Dave and I decided to put this together, and it seemed clear to me that designing the, the, the new thing in the world, 'cause I've been teaching designers to design iPhones, and iPads, and, and websites, and things for years. Designing the new thing in the world was just like designing the you. Like, what am I gonna be in my future? And so everybody had that problem, and then we started working with folks, like, in, you know, sort of mid-careers, 35, 45, and, and they're having the same question. You know, it's like, "Gee, it isn't as much... It wasn't as cool as I thought it would be"-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- BBBill Burnett
... "or I'm kind of done with this job, or I need to pivot."
- DEDave Evans
Now what?
- BBBill Burnett
Now what? And I haven't thought about that in a long time, and I don't have any framework for thinking about it.
- DEDave Evans
Mm.
- BBBill Burnett
And I've been doing work with folks who are retiring, you know, in their 50s, 60s, and, and older, and, uh, or folks that are, um, you know, suddenly empty nesters and they're like, "Well, geez, I organized my whole life..." My wife and I are empty nesters. "... Organized my whole wife, uh, life around my kids, and now it's just me and my wife. Like, do we even know each other?" [chuckles]
- DEDave Evans
Yeah.
- 6:01 – 11:31
You Can Design Your Own Life
- MRMel Robbins
... You say in your number one New York Times bestselling book, Design Your Life, that the true way to design a life is to design your lives. What does that mean?
- DEDave Evans
We say all the time, all of us contain more aliveness, more personhood, than one lifetime permits you to live out. There's more than one of you in there.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- DEDave Evans
Which is why, by the way, Maslow's idea about self-actualization through fulfillment is dead wrong, because he literally says in the 1943 paper, "You achieve that by becoming all that one can be." No, you can't possibly be all that you can be, because you're way bigger than your own lifetime. Look, I've buried plenty of people. None of them were done. That's the good news!
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, whoa. I wanna make sure that, that, that you didn't miss it. We've buried a lot of good people, and none of them were done.
- DEDave Evans
Yeah. I mean, I'm at an age-
- MRMel Robbins
You have so many lives
- DEDave Evans
... where I know plenty of dead people closely, and they all left with a long to-do list. That's the good news. You're far bigger than your lifetime, so the chance of you being bored or running out of things is zero if you're paying attention.
- BBBill Burnett
Right.
- DEDave Evans
That's the good news. So, the best way to design your life is to recognize i- i- there is no getting you right. There is no right life. There are lots of good lives. Let's go lean into them. And by the way, you don't know the future. You might have a good idea and implement it poorly, or you might have an idea you thought was good, and it didn't work out very well. "Whoops! Oh, I blew it." No, "I learned my way forward, and I'm gonna keep going."
- BBBill Burnett
Yeah.
- DEDave Evans
There's no getting it right. There's just getting it going.
- BBBill Burnett
Imagine this, listener. Um, we have this linear accelerator at Stanford. It's not the big... And it's not as big as it used to be, 'cause we have bigger ones now, but this one's pretty good, still runs. And I can put you, I can put you in the tube and fire you to the end of the accelerator. It's two miles long, and by the time you get to the end, you're going 99.999% the speed of light, at which point you will experience the multiverse. And you can have as many lives as you want simultaneously. You could be the astronaut, and the ballerina, and the stay-at-home mom, and... And you'll know about all the universes at the same time. And then we ask the, the, the... I say, "On the count of three, one, two, three, tell me how many lives you want." I go, "One, two, three," and people go everywhere from one, some really bored, burned-out guy, to-
- DEDave Evans
Infinity! Yeah
- BBBill Burnett
... a billion or something. But on average, seven.
- DEDave Evans
Seven or eight is the average.
- BBBill Burnett
Seven or eight. People want eight lives, and I go, "Well, that just proves our theory. There's more than one life in you." If you could have all those lives, wouldn't it be cool?
- DEDave Evans
And if you have seven lives' worth of interest in you, and you get one life, you're going to be 14% of your personhood.
- MRMel Robbins
Right now. Oh!
- DEDave Evans
By the time you die.
- MRMel Robbins
Wait, hold on a second.
- BBBill Burnett
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Hold on, because I imagine a world-
- DEDave Evans
[laughing]
- MRMel Robbins
... where your one lifetime-
- DEDave Evans
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... could have seven different lives in it.
- DEDave Evans
Sure.
- MRMel Robbins
Which means where you are right now-
- DEDave Evans
Right
- 11:31 – 14:19
Why Your 20s Feel So Hard
- MRMel Robbins
Could you speak to somebody in their 20s who is feeling that sense of discouragement, which frankly is justified-
- DEDave Evans
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... given some of the factual-
- DEDave Evans
Sure
- MRMel Robbins
... research about the cost of living and-
- DEDave Evans
Absolutely
- MRMel Robbins
... changes that are happening in the headlines? Like-
- DEDave Evans
Well, first of all, if you're 20-
- MRMel Robbins
Yes
- DEDave Evans
... be encouraged by the following fact. Your neocortex-
- BBBill Burnett
[laughing]
- DEDave Evans
... which is the part of your brain that allows you to have an executive function and actually allows you to have full empathy for other people, isn't formed until 27 or 28, a little later in men. Big surprise there. Um, so if you're 20, 21, 22-... You're not even here yet. We remind our graduating seniors, "You're not broken, you're 22!" [laughs] Your 22-year-old job is not to figure it out, because the you that's g- you're ever maybe even gonna have a shot at figuring out is six to eight years away from you. So your 20-year-old self's job is to give your 28-year-old self some interesting options. Now, I don't mean sit on the couch at Mom and Dad's house and wait for something to land in your lap. Get out there, start living, do things, learn your way forward, all that stuff we talk about in all our books. But if you're 20-something, it's gonna get more interesting, so don't give up yet. Now, externally, the macro situation we're all living in... I mean, the, the macro situation I was living in in 1976 when I graduated college is pretty radically different from what's going on right now, 50 years later. Uh, people are feeling powerless for a good reason, because people with power are hanging onto it and exercising it pretty egregiously right now. Personal point of view. That being said, okay, there are systems that are bigger than you. The question then says, do you wanna spend your time working on those systems?
- BBBill Burnett
Yeah.
- DEDave Evans
Bill's got a son named Ben, who's currently working, you know, in Congress.
- BBBill Burnett
Yep.
- DEDave Evans
He's gonna go directly after the problem.
- BBBill Burnett
Mm-hmm.
- DEDave Evans
You know, I'm not going directly after the problem. I'm writing books about meaning-making for everybody else in the meantime. I would hope that leaves the campground a little better than I found it. So find what you can do within the constraints of reality. Maybe it's different than your parents' generation. Maybe it's-
- BBBill Burnett
Mm.
- DEDave Evans
Who cares? That was then, this is now. What world are you in? What is available to you? How can we make the most of what is, not complain about what isn't? But I get that it's hard. It is hard.
- BBBill Burnett
It's hard, and I see this in lots and lots of our students, that they're willing... They're, they're willing to work, really-- People say, "Oh, the Gen Zs don't wanna work hard, and they wanna be pampered." It's like-
- DEDave Evans
Not the ones we know.
- BBBill Burnett
The ones I know, they'll do a startup. They'll work 100 hours a week if they believe in something, and so i- you know, uh, it's, it's... I'm, I'm very optimistic about the generation coming up and the generation that's already out there and say, "Well, you know, what can I do?"
- 14:19 – 22:59
The Odyssey Plan: What’s Your Dream Life?
- MRMel Robbins
You know, a lot of people feel like they don't even know what they want. But there's this other exercise that you are world-famous for called the Odyssey Plan.
- DEDave Evans
Yep.
- BBBill Burnett
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Can you just walk the listener through a little bit? 'Cause it can help you see other lives in yourself and how to live a meaningful life to lean into.
- DEDave Evans
So, uh, uh, so we know you have to have more ideas to get your best ideas.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- DEDave Evans
And if you get stuck on the one idea, you're gonna get stuck in a corner. So if we're gonna plan the future possibilities, we gotta hear from more than one of you.
- BBBill Burnett
Exactly.
- DEDave Evans
So three's kind of a magic number, because it really gives you some freedom. Um, and one of them is probably the life you're already in. The other one is, if you can't do that, what else would you do? And the third one, the wild card, if money were no object, you know, and nobody would laugh at you, what would you do? That's the wild card. Well, maybe I would open the Beanie Baby store. Um, um, or I'd start the button shop, you know, uh, whatever the crazy thing is. The reason we ask people to have a crazy idea is not because the crazy idea is a good idea. It's because we need to train you to quiet the internal critic.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- DEDave Evans
So as soon as you say, "Well..." You know, the 54-year-old woman says, "I mean, I'm thinking about going back to medical school. I always wanted to do that. I don't think it's too late, but my friends say I'm all crazy. What do you think?" So her internal critic is being encouraged by all of her friends' internal critic going, "Well, that's crazy. You can't do that." Um, and that's the part of evolution that keeps you from being eaten by the saber-toothed tiger, you know? So there's a negative bias built into your brain evolutionarily, lest you be eaten. Um, so you have to learn how to overcome that critic. So the Odyssey Plan helps you imagine there's more than one way you can live, and it helps train you to quiet your internal critic so you get the rest of your ideas back.
- MRMel Robbins
So I wanna make sure that you really got that. So the way that you help yourself imagine-
- DEDave Evans
Yep
- MRMel Robbins
... different possibilities in your life-
- DEDave Evans
Right, right
- MRMel Robbins
- is through the Odyssey planning, you ask yourself three questions.
- DEDave Evans
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
What happens in my life if I change absolutely nothing?
- DEDave Evans
Keep it going.
- MRMel Robbins
Where am I for five y-
- DEDave Evans
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... five years from now?
- DEDave Evans
And assuming it goes well.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah, okay. Well, I, I, I thank you for that.
- DEDave Evans
Yeah. [laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
Like, let's just assume it goes well.
- DEDave Evans
Let's assume it goes well.
- MRMel Robbins
What happens in five years-
- DEDave Evans
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... with my life?
- 22:59 – 32:25
Design Your Life With Prototypes
- BBBill Burnett
Yeah.
- DEDave Evans
You know, Mel, uh, Bill and I, we talk about the stuff we've been doing for a long time. We often say, at the end of the day, what we're really doing, we're just giving people permission to live their lives. It's really just giving, "Yes, you can. You do know how to do this. You have it in you. You may not have it in you to be a, an Olympian, but you have it in you to be something."
- BBBill Burnett
And then, because right after the Odyssey Plans comes prototyping. What in your plan do you want to learn about? And then they prototype, and they come back-
- MRMel Robbins
Ooh, that's the next step.
- BBBill Burnett
They come back-
- DEDave Evans
That's the next step, yeah.
- BBBill Burnett
They come back the next class, and they go, "You know, did you know you can actually make a living in the circus?" I had one student who was a gymnast at Stanford, and she wanted to go to medical school. Her parents wanted to go to medical school. She cut a deal, "Can I, can I do something before I go to medical school?" She's now in Cirque du Soleil in China, and she is a circus clown, which was on her Odyssey Plan, and-
- DEDave Evans
And she's having a great time.
- BBBill Burnett
But people have a hard time even imagining something so wild, it's not possible. And when they talk about plan one, it's kind of like, "Yeah, well, so I'm gonna just keep being an accountant. I'm gonna do this thing, and, you know, I'm pretty good at it, and da, da, da." But when they talk about their wild card, they're like, "You know, I really love diving and underwater photography, and I'm wondering if I could be a, a dive instructor who does photography, maybe for National Geographic." And I say, "Well, I happen to know a guy who started a company building underwater cameras. Would you like to have a prototype interview?" And they're like, "Really?" I go, "Yeah."
- DEDave Evans
... when you know that you don't know what you're doing, [laughs] right? So, the competence of- you have to be competent at your incompetence. You have to be good at knowing when you don't know what you're doing, called the future I haven't figured out yet.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DEDave Evans
So you make a move, then learn something, make a move, learn something, then go back, you know? So that, that- keep making moves until you finally iterate your way forward through prototyping. That's what we teach. Life is a series of incremental prototypes. You find your way by living into your life. You build your way forward, we keep saying. There is no knowing. There is only doing, learning, and growing.
- MRMel Robbins
So I know I'm gonna get a ton of questions about this. Can you guys give a couple examples of what actually a prototype looks like?
- DEDave Evans
Oh, clowning. Clowning's actually a thing. And, and there's... Is it the Shriners? Is it... There's, there's some outfit where they tr-
- BBBill Burnett
Yeah
- DEDave Evans
... they train the members, and they do clowning in hospitals to visit kids. Oh, so you could probably call the local hospitals and, "Does anybody do clowning with the children? Oh, great, do they have a training for that?" So you could go f- uh, you know, I... Trust me, there's somebody who will train you to be a clown, to be a little bit of clowning, that you could go into the children's ward-
- BBBill Burnett
Yeah, good
- DEDave Evans
... and try cheering some- maybe just ride along with them, watch them, you know. I mean, there are ways to get at the thing that you think you're thinking about.
- MRMel Robbins
So you're a 20-something, you see your friends living in Montana. "Should I live in New York? Should I go to Montana? Should I go into iBanking? Should I be a ski bum?" Like, "I don't know what to do with my..." You know, uh, you're 28.
- BBBill Burnett
[laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
What, what... Like, eh, what's a, an example of a prototype? Here's another one. A, uh, stay-at-home mom, the kids are gone, "Now it's my turn."
- DEDave Evans
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
"What am I doing? Am I going back to nursing school? Am I finishing my degree?" Like, uh, y-
- BBBill Burnett
Am I writing that novel I've been thinking of writing?
- MRMel Robbins
Am I writing that novel that I'm thinking about?
- DEDave Evans
Yeah, yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Like, what does that mean in terms of just a couple specific things that you've seen people do-
- DEDave Evans
Sure
- MRMel Robbins
... to give the person listening an idea?
- DEDave Evans
Okay, so I'm sitting with the 57-year-old suddenly empty-nested mom who left a couple of things behind, doesn't know what to do. Great, so let's quickly come up with your list of things that might be at all interesting.
- 32:25 – 41:42
Why You Should Have Your Funeral Early
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- BBBill Burnett
And-
- MRMel Robbins
Is it ever too late? I think there's a big fear that it's too late. I've blown it too much. Like, I-
- BBBill Burnett
No, it's never... No, it's never too late.
- MRMel Robbins
No.
- BBBill Burnett
No, it's never too late.
- DEDave Evans
When the f- uh, um, coming out of a talk, a 54-year-old woman has asked me about, you know, am I crazy to go to medical school? And I said, "Look, let's just run the numbers really quickly, okay? Based on the DNA of the gene pool you were born into, what's the likelihood of when you're gonna die?" She kind of goes, "I'm probably gonna make it to my late 80s, early 90s." I go, "Great. Let's say you make it healthy to 85, 88. How long do you want to work?" "Well, probably to 80." I said, "Okay, great, so we got 26 years to go." Um, [clears throat] and, you know, so you applied, said, "Probably gonna spend a year going to, you know, a, a medical school application preparatory program-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah
- DEDave Evans
... you know, called a post-bacc program. Spend a year on that. Spend a year trying to get in, that's two. Four years to get through medical school. Now you're in residency. By the way, 90% of medicine is done by residents, so you're already a doctor. You're now practicing medicine six years into the program. Eventually, let's-- you finish your specialty. You know, we're now eight years into the program. That puts you at 64. You got 11, you got 11 to 12 years to go before even backing off, maybe 15." Cut out the crap of all this conventional thinking-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm
- DEDave Evans
... and just ask yourself the question, "What's happening? What might it be?" I mean, I'm about to get married for the third time. 'Cause, you know, my wife died on me, and which was not the plan. And, uh, a lot of my friends say to me, they say, "Oh, it's too hard. It's too much work. I don't-- Bill, you, you really want to go through that again?" I go, "Sure!" [laughing] Um, it's terrific. Um, it's a ton of work. It's an absolute mountain of work, you know, but, I mean, what, what else am I doing?
- MRMel Robbins
When you go to a funeral, it's very interesting.
- DEDave Evans
Oh, yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
The second you walk out of the funeral, you feel more alive, and you have more urgency-
- DEDave Evans
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... to do what you came here to do-
- DEDave Evans
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... Dave and Bill. You said, "We want to give people permission-
- BBBill Burnett
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... to live their lives." And especially right now, when the world feels so overwhelming-
- DEDave Evans
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... and people are exhausted, and there are very big problems, like, it, it is easy to go, "It doesn't matter." And when you start to do the math, whether you're telling me that you have seven different lives you could do-
- DEDave Evans
Mm-hmm
- MRMel Robbins
... you're gonna die with shit on your to-do list and things you never achieved. Y- you're 50, so what? You got 40... You're 70-
- DEDave Evans
Are you kidding?
- MRMel Robbins
... you probably got 20 more years left. What are you doing?
- DEDave Evans
Yeah. Look, my, my next milestone is death. I haven't got t- time to waste. [laughing]
- BBBill Burnett
[chuckles] You know, um, uh, both Dave and I have been in wonderful communities. I've been in this group of men, a men's group, for 32 years, 'cause I started when my son got born, and I needed to figure out how to raise a son. Um, and we end up-- we've been around long enough that we've had some guys die. We've gone to their funerals-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm
- BBBill Burnett
... and said wonderful things about them, and then we decided, "Why do we wait till we die before we say wonderful things about each other?"
- 41:42 – 45:43
Bill and Dave’s Guide For a 20-Minute Life Reset
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah, you said turn off the phone and take the time-
- DEDave Evans
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... for the person-
- DEDave Evans
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... that says, "Well, I, I just can't. I'm overwhelmed. I have no time."
- DEDave Evans
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
What do you wanna say directly to them, Bill?
- BBBill Burnett
Um, I'll bet if I looked at your phone, and try finding, it would tell me how much time you spend on Instagram, how much time you spend on TikTok, how much time you spend scrolling mindlessly, you know, through, uh, reels or short videos on YouTube. I do it, too, and every once in a while, I look at that and go, "I can't believe I spent an hour on this crap." So give yourself a pau- a pause and, you know, go look at the phone, and it'll tell you how much time you spent just doomscrolling through stuff. And I, and I always ask people, "Tell me the last video you were- tell me the last video you watched." They go, "I don't know." "Tell me the last reel you..." "I don't know." "Tell me the last, you know, text you read or the, the last thing you read on, on X" "I don't know." I said, "So if you're doing it and you can't even remember what it was, would you like to reallocate that time to something more interesting? I'm only talking about 20 minutes here. Can you give me 20 minutes, and, and that, that you would have spent..." 'Cause I, I do the same thing, and, and, and, and just-... Be present with yourself and see what comes up. You know, standing in front of a big, blank canvas, and I'm going, "Oh, well, the world really needs an older, white guy painter," 'cause we, we need more painters in the world.
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- BBBill Burnett
"And I'm gonna paint something, and no one's gonna care." So I go through all of that stuff in my head.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- BBBill Burnett
And then if I quiet down for a little while, and I, you know, just stare at this thing, I get an idea, then I get another idea, and I get another idea, and pretty soon the painting is painting itself, and everything is, is wonderful. But boy, everybody's got that moment where we're like, "Oh, this isn't gonna work," or, "This is stupid," or, "This is useless."
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- BBBill Burnett
I have that all the time.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, that's the moment.
- BBBill Burnett
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
That's what it all comes down to.
- BBBill Burnett
Yeah, yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
'Cause you can stay there, or you can lean into-
- BBBill Burnett
Pick up a brush
- MRMel Robbins
... the other world you've taught us about.
- BBBill Burnett
Pick up a brush, and put something on the canvas, and see-
- DEDave Evans
And again, set the bar low. Like, "Oh, I really need to start meditating, so I should do 20 minutes every morning between 6:00 and 6:20. I gotta get up at 5:30, you know, and eat some really pure yogurt first." You know, like, whoa!
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- DEDave Evans
Dude, lighten up. Um-
- BBBill Burnett
Five minutes. Can you give me five minutes?
- DEDave Evans
How, how about, like, we've got a thing called the Seventh Day Savoring. Once a week, sit down and pick a moment during the week when you felt deeply alive, go back and savor it. Because you didn't have time to fully experience it in real time, you know, you could just go back there and, like, linger over it. I mean, put, put that... Let it sit on your tongue and really get the most out of it. Okay, it's five minutes a week, and your prototype is, "I'll do that twice." Okay, so two five minutes on a Sunday afternoon-
- BBBill Burnett
[laughs]
- DEDave Evans
... and then ask the question: Was that worth it? Did I enjoy that? Wanna do a little bit more?
- BBBill Burnett
How did that went?
- 45:43 – 49:19
How to Stop Procrastinating: Design Meaning Now
- MRMel Robbins
So, Dave?
- DEDave Evans
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
What is that one thing?
- DEDave Evans
[clears throat] Well, the first thing is you gotta reframe. You know, in design, we do problem finding before we do problem solving. One of the reasons people fail is they're working on the wrong thing.
- MRMel Robbins
Problem finding.
- DEDave Evans
Finding precedes problem solving.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- DEDave Evans
So the question, "Oh, how do I live a more meaningful life?" usually frames itself as, "What is the meaning of my life? I have not yet found my purpose. What is the one true thing that really is what I'm here to do?" And we think those are all the wrong question, 'cause they all treat you as a transaction, as a problem to be solved, for which there is a correct answer.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- DEDave Evans
So instead of working on the, what is the meaning of life, we're here to give you tools to design more meaning in life.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay, I wanna make sure the person listening got this.
- DEDave Evans
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
One of the reasons why I get stuck, and you get stuck, and the people that you love get stuck, is, number one, we're asking the wrong question-
- DEDave Evans
Looking for the ultimate answer-
- MRMel Robbins
Which is, how do I find meaning?
- DEDave Evans
... to life.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DEDave Evans
The ultimate, is this really it? Have I found it? No, you haven't found it, because you're gonna keep growing, and the- it's gonna change. So stop worrying about it, and let's work on this.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, what I love about it is... And, uh, you know, look, this is why you guys are brilliant, okay?
- DEDave Evans
[laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
Just gonna say it. It's because as I've been sitting here going, "You know, I gotta find it," that, that statement in and of itself says it's out there.
- DEDave Evans
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
How do I create more meaning right-
- DEDave Evans
Now
- MRMel Robbins
... here?
- DEDave Evans
Yes.
- BBBill Burnett
Here.
- DEDave Evans
So don't wait for the ultimate answer. No... By the way, we have both, in different ways, have worked on the big questions for a long time, and we think the big questions really matter. I'm not saying s- never think about that. What I'm saying is, don't defer "life is good and worthwhile" until you find those answers. What you can do is start living into the moment that you're in. So the first reframe is: How do I find more meaning now? And then the second thing is: And where might I find it?
- MRMel Robbins
Well, I'm glad you said there was a second question, 'cause here's the thing: As somebody who's really screwed up her life for large stretches of it-
- DEDave Evans
[laughs]
- 49:19 – 52:54
How to Live in the Present Moment
- DEDave Evans
So there are other ways to experience meaning, which happen in this place we call the flow world, not in this busy world we're all in most of the time, we call the transactional world. So our big invitation for where that more meaning is, is spending more time in the flow world, which is right here, by the way, but there's a lot more in front of you than you think. This is easier than they told you.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay, that's the part I wanna hang on to.
- BBBill Burnett
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
This is easier than they told you, and this is also easier than what you're currently doing.
- BBBill Burnett
So, flow is that state where time stands still. You're in the moment, by definition, because that's where you are fully engaged, and, and it's a, it's a moment where actually, you, you're, you're making energy. Uh, psychologists will say it's a, it's an energy-generating moment because it just feels so good. It's, you know, dopamine and other good chemicals going in your brain. And, um, some of this comes from the work of Dr. Lisa Miller-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm
- BBBill Burnett
... I think, u- uni- from, from Columbia. She kind of updated the left brain, right brain model. We used to have a right brain was the creative brain, and the left brain was the analytical brain. It's more nuanced than that, and her model is there's, uh, the achieving brain, the, the transactional brain, and the awakened brain is where we experience flow, where we experience spirituality, where we experience a connection to something bigger than ourselves. And so all we're arguing for is recognize that there's two things-
- DEDave Evans
Mm
- BBBill Burnett
... the transactional, the flow world, the achieving brain, the awakened brain, and get a little more into, you know, building your whole brain, which is having, uh, a balance between the two. Um, and being in the flow world and experiencing this awakened sense of yourself connected to the world, that's when we're more human, right? So we need both sides of the brain. We need both awakened and achieving.
- DEDave Evans
Mm.
- BBBill Burnett
We need to be in the transaction world and the flow world, uh, and we, and we're under-practiced, right, at getting into the flow world.
- MRMel Robbins
Can you give me some examples in day-to-day life that really help illustrate for the person listening-
- BBBill Burnett
Mm-hmm
- MRMel Robbins
... who has never even considered that there's a second world to live in other than the one in your head?
- BBBill Burnett
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
What does it feel like to be in flow, or what's an example that you might find in somebody's everyday life that you could hold onto and go, "Oh, I've experienced this. I... Okay, I understand the, this, this difference?"
- BBBill Burnett
Yeah. If you're an athlete, you're in- you've c- you've, you've felt it. You're in the zone.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- BBBill Burnett
You're in that place where you just know where the ball's gonna be. If you're a runner, it's the runner's high, where your, your, your, your brain goes quiet, and you're just on the run. Um, I like to cook. For me, it can be as simple as, you know, I'm chopping onions. I'm doing my mise en place. I'm preparing everything before I cook and put on some good music and just be in that state, and then I'm not thinking about school. I'm not thinking about, you know, the budget. I'm not thinking about other things. I have a lot of voices in this [chuckles] head that are talking to me all the time, and so learning to just kind of quiet them down and do some- do, do an activity, running, cooking, something that you enjoy doing, but really being all in, right? Being, you know, totally present and being available to what the experience can be.
- MRMel Robbins
I keep coming back to this 14% thing.
- BBBill Burnett
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
I think you, your next book should be The 14% Mindset-
- BBBill Burnett
[laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
... because I just feel this sense of the invitation-
- BBBill Burnett
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... of the unlived life, that there's these two lives-
- BBBill Burnett
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... that we have.
- BBBill Burnett
You're talking the unfinished business.
- MRMel Robbins
The one you're living.
- 52:54 – 59:25
Four Simple Steps to Design Your Life
- MRMel Robbins
And one of the things that you two write about is that you can boil the Design Your Life process into a Post-it Note.
- BBBill Burnett
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
Bill, what's on the Post-it Note?
- BBBill Burnett
Well, this, th- this is, this is hard. Professors don't like to boil their, their things down to something so simple that anybody can do it, but-
- MRMel Robbins
Actually, what e- e- everybody says, anybody, any idiot-
- BBBill Burnett
Yeah, yeah, yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... can make it complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple.
- BBBill Burnett
I- exactly. Um, that was Mark Twain. "If I had more time, I'd have written a shorter letter." [chuckles] Yeah.
- DEDave Evans
It happened on Canadian live TV.
- BBBill Burnett
Yeah.
- DEDave Evans
We, we were running out of time. The producer goes, "We're just about out of time. Can you do the book in a sentence?" I said, " Dude, we're Stanford professors. We don't give short answers to hard questions." He goes, "Okay, you're off the air." I said, "Give me a minute." I was a marketing guy.
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- BBBill Burnett
[laughs]
- DEDave Evans
Um, get curious, talk to people, try stuff, tell your story. So it's 10 words. It's really not one sentence, but it's get curious-
- BBBill Burnett
That's-
- DEDave Evans
... lean in.
- BBBill Burnett
Yes, lean in.
- DEDave Evans
That's lean into the availability. Talk to people, go out and engage with the world, you know, because the narrative story is where it's at. Try stuff, prototype your way forward, then tell the story of what you're learning. You're becoming... Pay attention, reflect on what you're learning. You know, "Hey, how's it going?" "Oh, yeah, I get, I binge-watched Game of Thrones all night last night again. What'd you do?" That's not that interesting. As opposed to like, "Well, I was talking about Robbins. She's talking about there's n- there's 14% of the lives I'm living, as well as the ones I'm not. I'm really thinking about that." And they kind of go, "Oh, say more. What's going on with that?" So if you're leaning into and living your life and paying attention to it, get curious, talk to people, try stuff, tell your story.
- BBBill Burnett
And it, it becomes a-
- DEDave Evans
And keep going
- BBBill Burnett
... a circular pattern. I'm telling stuff, I'm telling my story. People say, "That's very interesting. Have you, have you thought about talking to so and so or this, trying this or this?" And it just keeps going. You know, your, your curiosity leads to more engagement, which leads to more prototypes, which leads to more stories. Once you get that flywheel running, um-
- DEDave Evans
Mm
- BBBill Burnett
... you know, it runs by itself, and it, it feels like, hey, I'm, I'm making progress. I'm going somewhere. I'm not exactly sure where it is, but I'm pretty sure I'm going in the right direction.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, I think it's really cool to just allow yourself to imagine-... that there are all of these things that you can do-
- DEDave Evans
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And you're, you're gonna die with the to-do list, and the experiences, and all of the things that you could have become, regardless-
- DEDave Evans
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... of whether you mope on the couch or you use these principles to-
- DEDave Evans
You gotta move from FOMO to JOMO, from the fear of missing out to the joy of missing out. So people think, "The reason I have FOMO," right, fear of missing out, some cool thing goes by like, you know, "Oh! Oh, wow. Oh, we should've done that instead. Shoot, I missed it," says the person who has FOMO. The phrase, "I missed it," acts as though the world is a scarce place, and there's barely enough to make an it of your life, and if you missed a little bit of an it, you are now diminished. Wrong. Seeing something cool go by you haven't got time to do just reminds you the world is a target-rich place, and you're a highly capacious creature who could be interested in so many more things than you have time for. Isn't that great? So get used to, get a comfortable attitude toward wonderful things passing you by. It just reminds you the world is a cool place to live, and enjoy that which is in front of you. Look, he talked me into writing a book. Again, I've just... We just wrote this third book.
- MRMel Robbins
[chuckles]
Episode duration: 59:25
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