How to Stop Negative Thoughts & Reset Your Mind for Positive Thinking

Ethan Kross 0:00 If you experience worry, rumination, if you find your inner critic activating at times, there's nothing wrong with you. We evolve the capacity to experience negative emotions for a reason. "Why did I do this? Why didn't I do it that way? You idiot. How could you do this? You're worthless." We think about the what ifs. "What if this happens? What if that happens?" And before you know it, you know, life is over (instrumental music plays) . Here's what I hope everyone takes away from this.

Mel Robbins 0:29 Okay.

Ethan Kross 0:30 Three things. Number one, you'll be able to take your inner critic and turn it into an inner coach. Number two, if you ever find yourself falling down the rabbit hole of rumination and worry, we're gonna give you some lifelines to pull yourself out. And then number three-

Mel Robbins 0:48 Wow.

Ethan Kross 0:49 So, we got our work cut out for us.

Mel Robbins 0:50 That's a tall order.

Ethan Kross 0:51 Yeah. We better get started.

Mel Robbins 0:52 Well, I've read your books, so I know you can deliver on that. So, Ethan, what exactly is that voice that's in our head that's chattering 4,000 words a minute?

Ethan Kross 1:00 So when scientists like myself use, use this phrase "self-talk" or "the inner voice," what we're talking about is-

Mel Robbins 1:06 I've never heard anybody explain self-talk and that inner voice in a way that I actually get it. What is the solution? Is there a simple way to shut it up in order to-

Ethan Kross 1:18 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:18 ... just silence all of this negative self-talk, or is this a much more complicated thing that we need to take on?

Ethan Kross 1:25 The most important thing to do is... (clock ticks) (instrumental music plays)

Mel Robbins 1:30 Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so fired up for our conversation today. I'm so excited that you're here. It is always such an honor to spend time together and to be with you. And if you're a new listener, I just want to take a moment and personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. I'm thrilled that you're here. And because you made the time to hit play and listen to this particular episode, it tells me something about you. It tells me that you're the kind of person who wants to take control of your inner voice, and you want to learn how to be more encouraging and positive, especially when it comes to yourself. And you know what? I think that's amazing, because I want to learn how to do that too. And if you're listening right now or you're watching on YouTube because someone shared this with you, I want to take a minute and point out to you that that means that you've got someone in your life that really cares about you. And so thank you for trusting them, and thank you for being here. And this is a home run of a podcast episode for you to listen to or watch, because Dr. Ethan Kross is in the house. He is a psychologist and a neuroscientist, and he's been a pioneering researcher in the field of self-talk and emotions for 25 years. Ethan Kross is also a professor at the University of Michigan, where he has taught for the past 17 years. He is also the founder and the director of the research institute at the University of Michigan, the Emotion and Self-Control Laboratory. His work has appeared in esteemed journals like Science and The New England Journal of Medicine. He earned his PHD from Columbia University, and he is also the author of two best-selling books, Chatter: The Voice in Our Head: Why It Matters and How to Harness It, and his latest best-selling book is called Shift: Managing Your Emotions So They Don't Manage You. His books have been translated into over 40 languages, and today, he's gonna unpack the insights so that you can use this research to stop the negative self-talk. So please help me welcome Dr. Ethan Kross to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Thank you for hopping on a plane and being here in our Boston studios. I cannot wait to dig into your work in your, uh, best-selling book Chatter, and of course, congratulations on your new book, Shift. It's so exciting to have you here.

Ethan Kross 3:44 Well, it's a, it's an absolute honor to be here with you. You know, I've been, um, listening to you for quite some time, and the, the compatibility between a lot of what you talk about and, um, what I write about and do research on couldn't, couldn't be better. So, um, just an honor to be here.

Mel Robbins 4:00 Awesome. Well, let's just jump right into it, and here's how I wanna start. I would love to have you... Do you want me to call you Professor Kross, Ethan? What do you like?

Ethan Kross 4:09 I love Ethan.

Mel Robbins 4:09 Okay, Ethan.

Ethan Kross 4:10 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 4:10 We're going with Ethan.

Ethan Kross 4:11 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 4:11 Ethan, I would love to have you speak directly to the person who's-

Ethan Kross 4:15 Sure.

Mel Robbins 4:15 ... here spending time together with us right now-

Ethan Kross 4:17 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 4:17 ... and tell them exactly what they could expect to have be different about their life if they take everything that you're about to teach us about our self-talk, about our emotions, to heart, and they put it to use in their life.

Ethan Kross 4:32 Here's what I, here's what I hope everyone takes away from this.

Mel Robbins 4:34 Okay.

Ethan Kross 4:35 Three things. Number one, you'll be able to take your inner critic and turn it into an inner coach. Number two, if you ever find yourself falling down the rabbit hole of rumination and worry, we're gonna give you some lifelines to pull yourself out so you can actually use your mind to solve your problems rather, rather than just get stuck in them. And then number three, more broadly, we're gonna give you lots of really pragmatic, tactical tools, simple-to-use tools, that you can use to really master your emotions. So, if you wanna turn the volume on them up or down or shorten or lengthen how long they last or even switch from one emotional state to another, we're gonna give you some guideposts that, that steer you in the right direction.

Mel Robbins 5:24 Wow.

Ethan Kross 5:25 So we got our work cut out for us.

Mel Robbins 5:26 That's a tall order.

Ethan Kross 5:27 Yeah. We better get started.

Mel Robbins 5:28 Well, I've read your books, so I know you can deliver on that. Uh, you know, you have been at the University of Michigan. You are the founding director and have been running this incredible lab, the Emotion and Self-Control Lab. What has it, what has it taught you? What do you want us to know?

Ethan Kross 5:42 The first thing that I've learned over the past 25 or so years doing research in this space is if you ever find yourself going down that vortex of doom and despair or anxiety or, or even overcome with other negative emotions that don't really feel good in the moment...Welcome to the human condition.

Mel Robbins 6:02 (laughs)

Ethan Kross 6:03 We all do at times, and I think that's a really important point for people to take home because I can't tell you how many people I meet who, who really feel bad about themselves when they find themselves slipping into one of those emotional states. We evolve the capacity to experience negative emotions for a reason, and we'll talk more about that today. When they're experienced in the right proportions, they can be useful. So number one, if you experience worry, rumination, if you find your inner critic activating at times, there's nothing wrong with you. To the contrary, I would argue there's everything right with you. Number two, there are no one-size-fits-all solutions for managing these states that we want to bring more under our control. We have evolved to possess lots and lots of different tools, and I think the key to managing our emotional lives more effectively involves learning about what all those tools are and then figuring out what are the unique combinations that work for you based on who you are as a unique individual. It's a lot like in, in my mind's physical fitness. Lots of people have the goal to be physically fit.

Mel Robbins 7:18 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 7:18 But the way they get there can be radically different compared to other people. And the same is true when it comes to, if we wanna call it emotional fitness. You gotta learn about all the different machines in the gym, and then you gotta figure out, "What are the exercises that work for me based on who I am and what my goals are?"

Mel Robbins 7:35 Well, let's start with going down the rabbit hole.

Ethan Kross 7:37 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 7:37 Because, you know, your first best-selling book, Chatter: The Voice in Our Head, Why It Matters, and How to Harness It, when is the last time you went down the rabbit hole?

Ethan Kross 7:45 Oh, boy.

Mel Robbins 7:45 Like, you seem like a such chill guy, like-

Ethan Kross 7:47 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 7:47 ... like super tortured yourself about worry or negative thoughts.

Ethan Kross 7:51 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 7:51 (laughs)

Ethan Kross 7:51 Um, probably, um, maybe a couple of months ago, um, the, you know, and, and it was linked with, um, one of my daughters.

Mel Robbins 8:03 Are you gonna get in trouble for telling this story, even on a podcast? (laughs)

Ethan Kross 8:04 Well, I'm try- I'm, I'm actively, I'm actively monitoring it and, and, and now I'm like-

Mel Robbins 8:08 See, now he's going down the rabbit hole. "My wife is gonna kill me."

Ethan Kross 8:11 Yes, yes, no, um, um, this is something I'm used to experiencing. No, this is, this is fair to say. So, um, my, my youngest daughter was, um, was applying to get into the same school as my oldest daughter.

Mel Robbins 8:24 Mm.

Ethan Kross 8:25 And, um, when my oldest daughter was applying to get into a school, you know, there was, "Okay, if it works out, great, and if not, no big deal." But now with the second daughter, there's a social comparison element here, and, you know, she has this older sister that-

Mel Robbins 8:42 Yep.

Ethan Kross 8:42 ... she looks up to and admires, and so I'm thinking, "Well, what would happen if she doesn't get in?" And she fortunately did get in, and it was a, a great relief, but I did, I did find myself going down the rabbit hole, uh, on occasion, playing the what if this happens. And, you know, I should say that when I do that, when I go down the rabbit hole of despair, which I can get stuck in every now and again, like, like the best of us, um, it always amazes me how exceptionally adept we are at-

Mel Robbins 9:13 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 9:13 ... brainstorming endless worst case scenarios to our problems. Uh, I mean, have you experienced this yourself?

Mel Robbins 9:20 Every day. Like, I mean, you're, like, saying a couple of months ago. I'm like, "Dude," like, y- if you asked me that question, I'd be like, "About an hour ago." But it is true because we are so good at thinking about the negative and imagining-

Ethan Kross 9:31 So good.

Mel Robbins 9:31 ... the worst case scenarios, but we're not so great at imagining the things that go right.

Ethan Kross 9:35 That's right. Well, there's a, there's what we call this negativity bias.

Mel Robbins 9:39 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 9:39 Uh, one of my favorite titles of a paper in, in psychology is Bad is Stronger Than Good. Um, one of our few Nobel Prize winners won a Nobel Prize for discovering that we're more sensitive to losses than we are gains in our lives, and that all makes sense if you think about it, that the bad things in life have the potential to harm us or derail our lives a lot more than the good things, so we should be more sensitive to them. But sometimes that oversensitivity to the bad stuff can really lead us astray, especially because no one ever teaches us about how to re-right the ship when we find it going in the wrong path.

Mel Robbins 10:22 Well, one of the things that you said that I am excited is you said, "I'm gonna teach you how to turn your inner critic into a coach." And I would love to start with this amazing book, Chatter, and all your research about the voice in our head, and I wanna read a part of your book to you-

Ethan Kross 10:39 Sure.

Mel Robbins 10:40 ... because this was jaw-dropping to me. "So our verbal stream of thoughts, our self-talk, is so industrious that according to one study, we internally talk to ourselves at a rate equivalent to speaking 4,000 words a minute," and to put this into perspective, I crunched the numbers, 4,000 words a minute is the equivalent of reading the first book in the Harry Potter series in less than 20 minutes.

Ethan Kross 11:06 So when we think, we are not always thinking in full sentences. We're thinking in these sound bites that have deep meaning, and when you spell out what those sound bites are equivalent to, you get essays in your mind, and I'm sure you've, you've, you've felt this kind of bombardment w- of information when you find yourself going down that rabbit hole. It's like our mind is pinballing all over the place verbally, and, and we're, we're just inundated, which is in part why when we find ourselves kinda wracked with chatter, it can, it can feel so, so oppressive. Um, this is one of the reasons why writing about our experiences, doing something we call expressive writing, can be so helpful for folks, because it helps us organize our thoughts so that we're not pinballing all around.

Mel Robbins 11:54 You know, you write that, "The key to beating this negative self-talk and this chatter in our head isn't to stop talking to yourself. The challenge is to figure out how to do so more effectively, but before we can get into how to control the voice in our head, we need to answer a more basic question: Why do we have one in the first place?" So Ethan-What is self-talk, and what exactly is that voice that's in our head that chattering 4,000 words a minute?

Ethan Kross 12:22 Yeah. So I lo- I love this question. So, um, so when scientists like myself use- use this phrase self-talk or the inner voice, what we're talking about is our ability to silently use language to reflect on our lives, and it turns out that is a- a remarkable tool that we possess for navigating this crazy world. So let me, like, flag four key functions that this ability to use language silently provides. Um, number one, we're- we're the same vintage here, you know, age-wise, more or less, Em.

Mel Robbins 12:59 Be careful.

Ethan Kross 13:01 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 13:02 (laughs)

Ethan Kross 13:02 When we were growing up, what would you do when you wanted to remember a phone number or a name?

Mel Robbins 13:10 Um, well, if I didn't have a pen and couldn't write it down, I would repeat it over and over and over again.

Ethan Kross 13:14 In your head?

Mel Robbins 13:15 Yes.

Ethan Kross 13:15 Yeah. So-

Mel Robbins 13:16 Or I'd come up with, like, rhymes or, like, I- to try to remember it.

Ethan Kross 13:19 Right. So that's- that's probably the most basic function that your inner voice serves for us. It's part of what we call our verbal working memory system.

Mel Robbins 13:28 W- wait. So, uh, that's what the basic of your inner voice is, is to help-

Ethan Kross 13:33 That's-

Mel Robbins 13:33 ... you remember things?

Ethan Kross 13:34 That's- that's one function it serves.

Mel Robbins 13:36 Okay.

Ethan Kross 13:36 So you can think of your inner voice as like a Swiss Army knife, multipurpose tool, it does many different things for you. So one thing-

Mel Robbins 13:42 And oftentimes, death by a thousand cuts.

Ethan Kross 13:44 We're gonna get there.

Mel Robbins 13:45 Okay.

Ethan Kross 13:45 We're gonna get there. Don't you- don't you worry.

Mel Robbins 13:47 (laughs)

Ethan Kross 13:48 So number one, memorizing a phone number, repeating a phone number, repeating a name, going to the grocery store and asking yourself, "What was I supposed to buy? Milk? Cheese? Yogurt? I guess I'm in the dairy aisle." But the whole point here is you're doing that silently typically, not out loud. That's one thing your inner voice lets you do. Another thing your inner voice lets you do, simulate and plan. So before an im- well, you do a lot of presentations for- for- as part of your job. You ever go over what you're gonna say before you go on stage in your head?

Mel Robbins 14:20 Always.

Ethan Kross 14:21 Okay. That's your inner voice. You are- you are silently rehearsing, preparing, simulating for what you need to do.

Mel Robbins 14:29 You know what else I use it, I just realized? When I'm packing for a trip, I'm, like, thinking ahead to-

Ethan Kross 14:34 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 14:34 ... where I'm going and what I'm gonna need.

Ethan Kross 14:36 There you go. So that's- that's another, you're simulating and planning. People do this before, um, interviews, before consequential conversations that they, uh, are gonna have. I am not as good at giving a presentation if I don't do the simulation beforehand. My favorite function, so the name of my lab at University of Michigan is the Michigan Emotion and Self-Control Lab. I love the topic of self-control. We use our inner voice to control and motivate ourselves. So, all right, so Mel, tell me, what- what do you do to exercise?

Mel Robbins 15:10 Ugh. (laughs)

Ethan Kross 15:11 (laughs) Yeah. Keep going. Keep going.

Mel Robbins 15:12 Well, I l- okay, I- I- because of some of the experts we've had on the show, I now lift weights.

Ethan Kross 15:17 Okay.

Mel Robbins 15:17 I walk. I do yoga and Pilates.

Ethan Kross 15:20 Okay.

Mel Robbins 15:20 Um, I have, like, a super active lifestyle outside, but if- but if I'm, quote, "exercising"-

Ethan Kross 15:26 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 15:26 ... I have to drag myself to the gym, and then I use an app to mo- mo- motivate myself.

Ethan Kross 15:33 Okay.

Mel Robbins 15:34 Uh, and that's what I do.

Ethan Kross 15:36 Do you ever talk to yourself when you're exercising?

Mel Robbins 15:39 All the time. I, like I did this morning in a classroom.

Ethan Kross 15:42 Tell me, tell me, tell us. Tell-

Mel Robbins 15:43 Like, "I freaking hate this. Why are we on our hands? I don't wanna do a pike right now. Um, I feel like I'm in a gym class with a woman who's talking like this and who's, like, screaming at me, like, screaming, and why is she playing ACD at 6:30 in the morning?"

Ethan Kross 15:57 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 15:57 "I thought this was a freaking Pilates class."

Ethan Kross 15:59 Yeah. Uh-

Mel Robbins 15:59 Like, so it was literally, like, I'm saying that to myself. Um, as she would walk closer, I would think, "Get away from me. Go to the other side of the room." (laughs)

Ethan Kross 16:08 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 16:08 So I- and- or I'm thinking, "This is too heavy. I'm tired. I wanna quit." I- see, clearly I don't have a lot of willpower and discipline because my chatter is a constant barrage of why I should stop doing-

Ethan Kross 16:20 Yes.

Mel Robbins 16:20 ... what I'm actually doing.

Ethan Kross 16:21 We have room for- for intervention here.

Mel Robbins 16:23 Do we?

Ethan Kross 16:24 We have tons of room. We are gonna make... If you're already doing fine in the gym, we're gonna make you do a lot better by the time this episode is over. So that's another thing, if you're listening, you're gonna take home with you. So- but-

Mel Robbins 16:34 So it's possible if you are constantly against yourself-

Ethan Kross 16:38 Absolutely. You can-

Mel Robbins 16:40 ... to change that?

Ethan Kross 16:40 ... you can change your self-talk. So- so- but if we just go back to a second, this is one of my favorite questions to ask people when I-

Mel Robbins 16:47 Okay.

Ethan Kross 16:47 ... when I'm giving talks on this stuff. I just kinda scan the room for, what do you say to yourself when you're exercising? Lots of people talk to themselves and what they say varies tremendously, from what you just described to, "Come on, you got this," to, "I really want a bagel right now."

Mel Robbins 17:03 (laughs)

Ethan Kross 17:03 And- and- and- and so on and so forth. And- and we know that people who are skilled at harnessing this voice to be motivating and encouraging, they actually perform better in those contexts. So, um, so I- I, knowing this stuff, am very strategic about how I harness my self-talk when I'm exercising. I will be motivating, "Come on, man. You've got this." That's right, I refer to myself in the second and third person. We'll talk more about how that works. I als- I also can become, um, somewhat, in my head, uh, aggressive towards the instructor that is telling me to do painful things.

Mel Robbins 17:43 Oh, like the woman that I was like-

Ethan Kross 17:44 Yeah, like you were just describing. So for me, I find it, "Well, why don't you try doing that?"

Mel Robbins 17:49 (laughs)

Narrator 17:49 I do too.

Ethan Kross 17:49 You know, like, "I don't like the way you're talking to me. I know ... I wanna do it this..." I don't say that out loud. I smile out loud, but in my head, right, I'm having that kind of conversation. So- so the point here is another thing your inner voice helps you do is control and motivate yourself. The fourth and final thing I wanna flag here, to me, I describe this as the most magical feature of our inner voice. Um, your inner voice helps us make sense of this messy world that we live in.

Mel Robbins 18:17 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 18:17 We are bombarded by things all the time that have the potential to lead us astray.We get rejected, we get into arguments, we experience a-a-anxiety about what may come. And when those different kinds of curveballs get thrown at us, what we do is we often stop and we try to, "Okay. How do we make sense of this so we can get back on, on track of living our lives?" And we make meaning, we use our inner voice to try to, to try to make sense of our, our circumstances to essentially create a story that helps us understand what we're going through-

Mel Robbins 18:53 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 18:54 ... and who we are. So your inner voice is actually shaping your sense of self. So if we just pause here and zoom out, your inner voice helps you do things as simple as reminding yourself what's on your grocery list and memorizing a phone number when you repeat it in your head to simulating and planning for the future, to controlling and motivating yourself, to making meaning. If I told someone I could give you a tool that does all those things, like these are the things that are really important to us in life. Your inner voice is central to all of those things. It's an invaluable tool that you do not wanna live life without. The big question, of course, that really got me into this business in the first place was, on the one hand, we have this remarkable capability. We reach for it when we're struggling, but as you know, as I know, as you who are listening knows, oftentimes, we don't activate this voice and get clear solutions to how to move on. We just start stumbling. We start looping over our problems in an attempt to work through them, or we start berating ourselves incessantly for mistakes that are endemic at, to human life. And when that happens, I think that is one of the big problems we face as a species. And as I have said before, I say that not to scare or sensationalize. I say it based on what I know of the data, because if you look at what chatter, which I define as the, the negative manifestation of your inner voice, when it turns into that negative thought looping, that self-beratement, that just tanks us. It makes it hard for us to think and perform, it creates friction in our relationships, and it undermines our health and well-being. These are the things we care about in our, in our lives. And so that's why I think it's just critical to address it.

Mel Robbins 20:46 I have never heard anybody explain self-talk and that inner voice so elegantly and in a way that I actually get it.

Ethan Kross 20:58 Well, thank you. I mean, it is truly remarkable when you take a 30,000-foot view and think about what does our chatter look like?

Mel Robbins 21:07 Yes.

Ethan Kross 21:07 What does it sound like? I mean, we say things to ourselves that many people not only wouldn't say to a buddy, right? We often talk about that how, you know, talk to yourself like you would talk to someone else. This is a great tool, by the way. We'll talk more about that later. We sometimes say things to ourselves that we are ashamed to even say out loud. Sometimes when I do exercises, workshops with groups or students, I'll sometimes invite people to just write down their chatter on a piece of paper, and it's really remarkable. People are often reluctant to even put in writing what they're thinking, even when I assure them, like, "The shredder's right here. There's another garbage bag with lighter fluid." Like not bag, garbage can, right? You can... I'm, I'm, I'm joking here, but, like, no one is gonna look at this.

Mel Robbins 21:58 Right.

Ethan Kross 21:59 Just admitting to what is happening up here can be so challenging for folks, and I think that speaks to the gravity of what we're talking about.

Mel Robbins 22:09 What are some of the examples of negative self-talk that just show up again and again? I think hearing it from you-

Ethan Kross 22:15 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 22:15 ... would really validate it for me and for the person who's with us right now. Because if we don't, if we're reluctant to even be honest with ourselves-

Ethan Kross 22:23 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 22:23 ... and put it on paper-

Ethan Kross 22:24 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 22:25 ... what can you validate based on the fact that this is your area of expertise, it's what you research, that you see over and over and over again that are examples of negative

Mel Robbins 22:34 self-talk?

Ethan Kross 22:35 So there, there are three, three key forms. Number one, what I call rumination, which is going over the past, something you did in the past. You can't fix it, right? But you just keep turning it over and over in your mind. "Why did I do this? Why didn't I do it that way? What implications might this have moving forward?" So rumination is getting lost in this thought. It's a legitimate issue from the past, and you're trying to work through it, but you just keep turning it over and over. You're not making any progress. That's often a telltale sign of chatter. Legitimate issue, you wanna work through it, but you don't make progress. Rumi-

Mel Robbins 23:14 So it could be, like, just to give it even a more fine point, it could be that you really screwed up in a relationship, and now you're telling yourself the one got away.

Ethan Kross 23:22 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 23:23 Or y- you made dumb financial decisions. This was me, and, and now it's, I'm n- why did I do that? I, I, I should have started with my 401k like my father told me when I graduated from college.

Ethan Kross 23:34 That's right.

Mel Robbins 23:34 Like, da, da, da. Like, just hammering yourself into the ground. How did I let myself go? I should have, like, I've, I've, I've just d- now it's too late. I- I've been drinking. Like, all that kind of stuff-

Ethan Kross 23:45 All that.

Mel Robbins 23:45 ... that's in the past. And, and why is this such a predominant form of self-talk for people?

Ethan Kross 23:52 Well, it's a predominant form because I often think that we, we navigate life in an ideal sense on autopilot. We just kinda wanna live the life, you know, knowing that the world is, is, is orderly, it's safe, it's predictable, and then when we encounter some, some challenge to that view that the world is safe, that everything's okay, it's like an alarm gets hit in our brains that says, "Stop, pay attention, fix this." And so then we zoom in really narrowly on what the impediment is. And so maybe it's something from the past. Then we keep focusing on it.... until we can resolve it. Oftentimes, though, we don't know how to resolve it. We just keep on playing it over and over in our minds, and then the alarm button stays pressed, and we just get into this rut of turning it over and over and over. And we don't, some of us don't wanna let go of that e- either because at least if we're focusing on it, that's step one. But in the process of doing that, we're, we're really harming ourselves. We're making it im- very challenging to think and perform. I mean, have you ever gets, gotten stuck in rumination and then tried to have a conversation with someone or read a book only to find that you're physically there or you're reading the information on the page, but nothing is penetrating 'cause your mind is somewhere else?

Mel Robbins 25:12 Oh, completely.

Ethan Kross 25:14 Right?

Mel Robbins 25:14 Absolutely. Like, if I get into that loop where I am obsessing over something that I think I did wrong, I can't do anything else.

Ethan Kross 25:23 Exactly. So, think, that's, that's thinking and performance, right? Like, that is a major, major obstacle to being successful in life if, if your ability to really hone your attention now is lost. And the way that works, just, if you wanna geek out with me for 30 seconds-

Mel Robbins 25:39 Sure.

Ethan Kross 25:40 Um, our ability to focus is limited. We have these limited attentional resources. They are, um, they're, they're subserved by our prefrontal cortex, the front part of our brains. And chatter acts like a sponge that soaks up all of those attentional resources, and it leaves very little left over to do the things that we often want and need to do, whether that be just pay attention to the person we're talking to or read the chapter in the book and absorb the information. That's one of the way it really sinks us.

Mel Robbins 26:11 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 26:12 So, so you asked though, like, how does chatter manifest? Rumination about the past is one. Uh, another one that will be familiar to everyone in the world, (laughs) or, or most of us is, is worry.

Mel Robbins 26:24 Hmm.

Ethan Kross 26:24 Right? We, we worry about the future. We think about the what-ifs. We are what-if machines. We can easily, "What if this happens? What if that happens?" And before you know it, you know, life is over.

Mel Robbins 26:38 Right.

Ethan Kross 26:38 Right? And that goes really fast. So, worrying is, is getting stuck in these negative thought loops, typically about the present and future. Rumination-

Mel Robbins 26:46 Got it. So, rumination, the first-

Ethan Kross 26:48 ... is the past.

Mel Robbins 26:48 The first is the past. The second form of self-talk is getting stuck in a negative loop, talking to yourself about the future.

Ethan Kross 26:55 That's right.

Mel Robbins 26:55 What's the third form?

Ethan Kross 26:56 The third form that is very common to folks is this self-beratement, this kind of like, "You idiot." You know, you know, "How could you do this? You're worthless." So, this kind of inner critic is-

Mel Robbins 27:08 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 27:08 ... another manifestation of it.

Mel Robbins 27:09 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 27:10 It can, however, take different forms. So, chatter really is this process of just looping, looping negative information over and over. If you're being super critical about yourself, like that, that's very common. Sometimes, it can be just, um, anxiety, right? You're, you're looping over, "What if this happens? What if this happens?" And so, it's really this looping of negative stuff. It's like you keep on getting hit over and over and over. You said it before. I think you said death by a thousand...

Mel Robbins 27:39 Cuts.

Ethan Kross 27:39 ... cuts, right? Like-

Mel Robbins 27:39 Yeah, that's what it can feel like when you just start hammering yourself.

Ethan Kross 27:43 And then it's just tiring, right? Like, it's exhausting. People often who are experiencing chatter, they, they report just like being fatigued, and I wanna be clear also.

Mel Robbins 27:51 Yep.

Ethan Kross 27:52 We all have this, um, capability of experiencing chatter at times, and, and just because you do doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. Again, this is normative. If it, if it morphs into the extreme state, that is like the volume is super high, and it's on for long stretches of time, like more than two weeks, then we get into the more, um, you know, clinical state. But, but what we're talking about here today is really, this is just true of human beings and how we operate. And again, a big, big part of what I hope to do in talking to you about this and sharing the science is to convey, first and foremost, that this is normal. This is just part of this messy world that we live in. We have these tendencies to slip into this state-

Mel Robbins 28:40 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 28:40 ... so it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you.

Mel Robbins 28:42 Hmm.

Ethan Kross 28:42 The opportunity, though, is to learn about what you can do to help yourself when you go down this path if you don't wanna stay, stay on it.

Mel Robbins 28:53 Ethan,

Mel Robbins 28:54 what is a solution? I mean, now that you're-

Ethan Kross 28:55 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 28:55 ... you're exposing all the negative self-talk, I mean, is there a simple way to shut it up or a magic wand you can wave in order to just-

Ethan Kross 29:04 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 29:04 ... silence all of this negative self-talk? Or is this a much more complicated thing that we need to take on?

Ethan Kross 29:10 Well, there's not one simple thing that everyone can do, um-

Mel Robbins 29:14 I don't like that answer.

Ethan Kross 29:16 Yes, I'm sure you don't.

Mel Robbins 29:17 (laughs)

Ethan Kross 29:17 But I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you-

Mel Robbins 29:18 There goes my negative chatter-

Ethan Kross 29:19 I- But, but, but, but-

Mel Robbins 29:19 ... right out my mouth at you.

Ethan Kross 29:21 But, but, but, uh, but I'm gonna give you, there are lots of simple things you can do-

Mel Robbins 29:25 Oh.

Ethan Kross 29:26 ... is the way to think about it.

Mel Robbins 29:27 Oh, I like that.

Ethan Kross 29:28 So, um, yeah, you should. There's a lot of hope. There's a lot-

Mel Robbins 29:31 That's good.

Ethan Kross 29:31 There's a lot you could-

Mel Robbins 29:31 There is? 'Cause I feel bummed.

Ethan Kross 29:33 I th- I think you should feel good when I tell you that there's not one thing you can do to manage your chatter, because here's what often happens when you give people one solution. They try it, that one thing doesn't work for them, and now they think, "What's wrong with me?"

Mel Robbins 29:48 Hmm.

Ethan Kross 29:48 "Why is this working for everyone else, but not me?" We just published some research not too long ago, uh, that looked at how people dealt with their anxiety during the COVID pandemic. So, we did these large studies. We tracked people over time, and every day, we had them rate their COVID anxiety, and we had them indicate which of something like 18 different tools they used. Now, all we wanted to know was, well, what are the tools that are moving the needle?

Mel Robbins 30:16 Yeah.

Ethan Kross 30:17 So, what was really interesting about that study was there was no individual tool that moved the needle on people's anxiety. It was only like when you used a combination of tools. It's like-... curling biceps didn't do it on its own. You had to do bicep curls, push-ups, and sit-ups.

Mel Robbins 30:34 Right.

Ethan Kross 30:34 Right? Except for journaling. Journaling was the one tool that alone moved the needle on people's anxiety. However, it was also the most infrequently used tool of all the tools we asked people about. How does that make sense?

Mel Robbins 30:53 Yeah, why?

Ethan Kross 30:54 It's effortful to sit down for 15 to 20 minutes and actually write. There's also a vulnerability to putting it out there, and so I think teaching people about that is really useful too 'cause that could be a powerful tool for folks.

Mel Robbins 31:09 So, do you have a favorite journal prompt that's helpful for starting the process-

Ethan Kross 31:13 Yes.

Mel Robbins 31:14 ... of identifying your negative chatter? What is it?

Ethan Kross 31:16 Yeah. Um, well, for me, it's, like, straight out of the pages of a, of, of the, the literature, so I tell people to, um, write about your deepest thoughts and feelings about whatever it is that's bothering you. Really let yourself go. Don't worry about punctuation or grammar. Write continuously for 15 or 20 minutes. Now, what do we learn from the time we're young about stories? They have a beginning, a middle, and an end.

Mel Robbins 31:40 Mm.

Ethan Kross 31:40 So what writing does is it gives these guideposts to help you take this, like, jumble of crap in our minds-

Mel Robbins 31:49 Right.

Ethan Kross 31:49 ... which are making us nuts-

Mel Robbins 31:51 Yes.

Ethan Kross 31:52 ... and we're organizing it, and that's the beauty of, of what we call expressive writing. So the whole idea here is that we have this remarkable set of tools that we can leverage to help us work through our chatter, but we need to know what those tools are and what, what really mystifies me is we don't get a user's guide for where to find these tools and a user's guide that teaches us how to use it when we are born into this world. We're born into the world with the ex- ability to experience this chatter or this emotion dysregulation-

Mel Robbins 32:27 Mm.

Ethan Kross 32:27 ... but no one, no one teaches us how to use it or how to, how to manage it.

Mel Robbins 32:32 Until now.

Ethan Kross 32:33 Yeah, and there is hope. There's absolutely hope. What I, I find it liberating to know that there are so many different tools that I can bring to bear to deal with the different circumstances that I might encounter. Um, you know, my emotional life is utterly distinct. It's like a fingerprint, right? It's very different from yours and every other human being on this planet.

Mel Robbins 32:58 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 32:58 So, why would we expect the same single tool to work for every single one of us, given how unique we are? My grandfather was a, a master carpenter, and I remember distinctly, like, when he would show up to a job site, he would show up with this remarkable set of tools, this toolkit. No matter what problem he encountered on the job site, no matter what he needed to do, he had a tool, a general... You know, h- he knew how to use these tools, and he could wield them to solve the problem. If he showed up with just a hammer, he'd be out of business, and that's how I think about tools. You wanna give people those basic tools that exist for pushing our emotions around, and once you have them, you've got a great resource.

Mel Robbins 33:44 You've got, like... I, I, I mean, I'm looking at 12 tools that you can use personally. There are tools for getting other people to support you. There's tools for receiving r- support. Let me start with the first one. Use distanced self-talk. One way to create distance when you're experiencing chatter involves language. So, what is distanced self-talk-

Ethan Kross 34:05 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 34:05 ... and how do I use it when I'm going down the rabbit hole?

Ethan Kross 34:07 And, and, you know, I've, I've actually heard you use this on prior podcasts, and you weren't-

Mel Robbins 34:11 Really?

Ethan Kross 34:12 ... even aware of it. That's right.

Mel Robbins 34:13 No, I'm not.

Ethan Kross 34:13 H- so can you think about times when you might have coached yourself through a problem using your own name and you?

Mel Robbins 34:21 Oh, you mean, like, talking-

Ethan Kross 34:22 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 34:23 ... like, like saying to myself, "Oh, come on, Will"?

Ethan Kross 34:25 Yeah, well, yeah, there you go.

Mel Robbins 34:26 R- that's, that's distanced self-talk?

Ethan Kross 34:28 You just did d- distanced self-talk. So distanced self-talk involves using your name and you to typically silently coach yourself through a problem. You could do it out loud, but if you do it out loud, you wanna be aware of who's listening-

Mel Robbins 34:40 (laughs)

Ethan Kross 34:40 ... 'cause it violates, um, social norms to t- not only to talk a- to ourselves out loud but use our own name to do it. Um, we talked before and you've talked before about how much better we are at giving advice to other people than we are taking that advice ourselves. Uh, little factoid there, there's actually a name for that phenomenon that we've, we've studied this in my lab. It's called Solomon's Paradox.

Mel Robbins 35:06 Solomon's Paradox? Okay.

Ethan Kross 35:07 Named after the Bible's King Solomon. Here, I'm gonna give you another pop quiz. Don't get nervous. If you get it wrong-

Mel Robbins 35:13 I, I'm not gonna know the answer to this.

Ethan Kross 35:13 If you get it r- no, I think you will.

Mel Robbins 35:15 (laughs) I don't.

Ethan Kross 35:15 I, I think you will. So, what was King Solomon famous for?

Mel Robbins 35:20 I have no idea. (laughs)

Ethan Kross 35:22 Being?

Mel Robbins 35:22 A king?

Ethan Kross 35:23 Being wise.

Mel Robbins 35:24 Oh, being wise. (laughs)

Ethan Kross 35:25 He was wise. He was a wise guy. So, um, King Solomon, like, super wise individual-

Mel Robbins 35:31 Okay.

Ethan Kross 35:31 People would travel from all over the world to, to receive his, his counsel, but when you look at his own life, he made a slew of terrible decisions. This is true of, of humanity. Like, when I ask audiences, "Hey, you're much better at, at giving advice to others than taking that advice yourself," every hand in the, in the room goes up. W- we, when you use distanced self-talk, what it's doing is you're using language to automatically shift your perspective, to put you into this "I'm talking to someone else" advice-giving mode. Think about the word you. The word you is the verbal equivalent of pointing a finger at someone else.

Mel Robbins 36:10 Hm.

Ethan Kross 36:10 Most of the time we use the word you, it's when we're thinking about or referring to another person.

Mel Robbins 36:15 So when you use the example of being in the gym and one purpose of your self-talk is motivation-

Ethan Kross 36:21 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 36:21 ... and you say, "Come on, Ethan, you got this."

Ethan Kross 36:24 That's right.

Mel Robbins 36:25 That's an example-

Ethan Kross 36:26 That's a perfect example.

Mel Robbins 36:26 ... of using positive motivating self-talk-

Ethan Kross 36:30 That's right.

Mel Robbins 36:30 ... using this distanced language.

Ethan Kross 36:31 That, that's exactly right. You're putting yourself into this coach advice giving mode, right? And what did we say earlier? We, we, we, we s- we don't say to our friends-... the things that we say to ourselves-

Mel Robbins 36:44 Hmm.

Ethan Kross 36:44 ... when we get stuck in that chatter. So, when you use your own name and you to coach yourself through a problem, it's like it's putting guardrails up on your self-talk that prevents you from going down that, that more negative route.

Mel Robbins 36:57 Can you give me a couple examples of just generic positive distance language for somebody that hyper-focuses on the mistakes they make, or like saying that, "I'm never gonna be good enough-"

Ethan Kross 37:11 Yeah, sure.

Mel Robbins 37:12 ... "I'm never gonna be like..." What, what are some examples of just things people could start to say to themselves?

Ethan Kross 37:16 "Ethan, all people make mistakes. You've, you've made mistakes before, you've learned from them, and you'll be fine."

Mel Robbins 37:22 Oh, that's nice.

Ethan Kross 37:23 Yeah, that's a-

Mel Robbins 37:24 That's a nice thing to say to yourself, Ethan.

Ethan Kross 37:25 ... that's a good, that's a... Rather than, "I'm such an idiot. I'm such a..." I mean, you have to, you know, I mentioned before we started filming that I grew up in Brooklyn, New York. And although you may not hear the accent right now, um, in my mind, when I go into the chatter zone, it's a filthy, sometimes- (laughs)

Mel Robbins 37:42 Yeah, same.

Ethan Kross 37:42 ... inner beratement. Um, and so I'm not doing that when, when I'm in distant self-talk mode.

Mel Robbins 37:47 So give me another positive one.

Ethan Kross 37:49 Yeah, so, so, really what we see happening is you get into this more challenge orientation. "I can manage this. I can do it." As opposed to being in what we call threat mode. "I can't manage this."

Mel Robbins 38:02 Hmm.

Ethan Kross 38:02 "I'm gonna screw up." So another example would be, um, one of my favorites from a study was, um, someone was, was thinking about having to plan a huge event for someone and it was really, really stressful. "You can do this. You can manage this retirement party for this person and get a t- great turnout. People are gonna come and, and they're gonna love it. You've got this." Um, you know, in my book I actually, I share an artifact from Mister Rogers. Remember Mister Rogers?

Mel Robbins 38:32 Of course.

Ethan Kross 38:33 He, he was the, um-

Mel Robbins 38:35 You're sitting in 143 Studios, which was his favorite number.

Ethan Kross 38:38 Really?

Mel Robbins 38:39 Uh-huh.

Ethan Kross 38:39 Wow. There is some cosmic connection that led me-

Mel Robbins 38:42 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 38:42 ... to bring this up. So Mister Rogers, in my mind, is the, the human equivalent of a warm cup of tea on a rainy afternoon.

Mel Robbins 38:50 Yeah.

Ethan Kross 38:50 Right? Just kinda soothing. And there was this moment where he had taken some time off from, from filming his, his show, and then he was about to come back and he was wracked with chatter, wracked with self-doubt. And he, he journaled a- a little bit about it and he's, you know, it's, "How can I possibly live up to expectations? I've been gone and I'll never be good enough." And then, at a particular moment in that essay, he switches. He starts using distant self-talk essentially. "You've got this. The hour have come. You're gonna do a great job," and so forth and so on. It's in the book. And it's just remarkable because you see the entire tenor of the conversation shift when he goes into this distant self-talk mode.

Mel Robbins 39:37 You know, one of the other tools that you talk about, uh, that's very effective at helping you get a handle on the inner critic and this negative chatter that we have is rituals. Can you explain that?

Ethan Kross 39:48 Yeah. Yeah, so, you know, rituals and popular culture get a bad rap because we often equate them with certain forms of anxiety. And there are those links that, that do exist where you have people who are suffering from anxiety conditions become really over-reliant-

Mel Robbins 40:03 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 40:03 ... on a ritual to a point where it can be harmful. But a ritual in the right proportions can be quite helpful. I often call them ancient chatter fighting tools.

Mel Robbins 40:14 (laughs)

Ethan Kross 40:14 So if you think about it, are, are you religious in any way, or?

Mel Robbins 40:19 Very spiritual person.

Ethan Kross 40:20 Okay, very spiritual person. So I'm sure that there are certain spiritual rituals that-

Mel Robbins 40:25 Of course.

Ethan Kross 40:25 ... that, you know, you've been exposed to. Grieving rituals, right? Religions around the world have been like... Well, let's just stop for a second. Let's pause for a second. Take the loss of someone. This is like a real chatter challenge for a lot of people.

Mel Robbins 40:40 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 40:40 Like, their worldview is shattered now. How are they gonna go on without this person that they love, that they care about? Religions have identified, "Hey, that might be a really hard time that people are dealing with. Let's give them a tool to manage that situation, it's a grieving ritual." So here's what we know about rituals. Rituals are relatively rigid sequences of behaviors that you perform them the same way each time, more or less. They don't necessarily... It's not clear why you do the things that comprise a ritual. Like, if you've ever watched an athlete before a game do a ritual-

Mel Robbins 41:19 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 41:19 ... they do some funky things.

Mel Robbins 41:20 Yeah.

Ethan Kross 41:20 Like, you know, pull, tug on their earlobe a few times, pick a wedgie, put their hand through-

Mel Robbins 41:25 Right.

Ethan Kross 41:26 ... their hair. The key is you're doing the same thing in a sequenced order, in a rigid sequenced order the same way. Here's how this can help us. Chatter is often triggered when we don't feel like we have order and control.

Mel Robbins 41:43 Hmm.

Ethan Kross 41:43 Things are just not under our control. You've written extensively about this, right? A ritual's under your control. You can perform that ritual the same way each time and when you do, it leads to what we call, this is a mouthful, compensatory control. You're compensating for the lack of control you feel inside when your chatter's taking over by exerting control around you. This is also why people do this, I'm guessing, pretty common thing. I'm gonna guess you do this. Here's another little-

Mel Robbins 42:17 I don't know.

Ethan Kross 42:18 Yeah, I feel like I'm putting you on edge throughout our conversation.

Mel Robbins 42:21 Not at all.

Ethan Kross 42:21 Do you ever organize and clean when you're experiencing chatter?

Mel Robbins 42:25 Okay, so let's have a conversation about this.

Ethan Kross 42:28 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 42:29 'Cause not only did I see on page 170...... tools that involve your environment-

Ethan Kross 42:36 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 42:36 ... to really get your negative self-talk in control. But the first one is, create order in your environment. "When we experience chatter, we often feel as if we're losing control," you write. "Our thought spiral control... Our sp- our thought spirals control us rather than the other way around. When this happens, you can boost your sense of control by imposing order on your surroundings. Organizing your environment can take many forms, tidying up your work or home, making a list, arranging different objects." This is, I think, my number one way to combat negative self-talk, and I never knew that's what I was doing.

Ethan Kross 43:16 So, that, that was true of me as well before I got into this space, and it was... this was a super, um, a super aha, is the technical term, for me. So, growing up, I've always been... I would describe myself as positively dispositioned, very happy, and clean. I've always believed in hygiene. I shower daily, sometimes twice.

Mel Robbins 43:39 Twice?

Ethan Kross 43:40 Sometimes. If I go to the gym, you know, I like to stay fresh.

Mel Robbins 43:43 (laughs)

Ethan Kross 43:43 But, uh, not terribly organized in the sense of putting my things away. Probably, like, my wife's biggest pet peeve are the trail of clothing that exists from the, the shower to the closet, around the room. And if you go into my office, I assure you, it does not look like this facility that we're taping in right now. Piles of books. That's when times are good.

Mel Robbins 44:09 Okay.

Ethan Kross 44:10 Yet, going back to when I was a kid, whenever I would experience chatter, I would do this, I... something deep inside me would beckon myself to... it was like, remember Field of Dreams? Like, "Build it and they will come"?

Mel Robbins 44:23 Yes, yes.

Ethan Kross 44:23 And for me it was like, "Clean it."

Mel Robbins 44:27 (laughs)

Ethan Kross 44:27 "Clean it, and you will experience relief." And so, I would like, go and put things away. And I'd do this, you know, I'd go into the kitchen, do all the dishes, maybe even scrub the, the counter, you know?

Mel Robbins 44:40 Same, even.

Ethan Kross 44:40 And then even masochistically, and tell me if you do this, sometimes I'd even go in my kids' rooms and put their stuff away.

Mel Robbins 44:46 Of course.

Ethan Kross 44:47 And, and like, all of a sudden, things feel a little bit better.

Mel Robbins 44:51 I absolutely had no idea-

Ethan Kross 44:54 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 44:54 ... this is a technique that we reach for when our overwhelm in our minds get to be too much.

Ethan Kross 45:00 You're compensating for the lack of control you feel inside by trying to exert order and control around you. And now that you know how this works, you can weaponize this. And what I mean-

Mel Robbins 45:12 Okay, let's talk about that-

Ethan Kross 45:13 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 45:13 ... because I... well, I can see lots of various moments in my life, like when my husband and I were really, really struggling, the kids would joke that they would come home from school, and every other day, I would have moved the furniture around, dragging it and scraping the floor-

Ethan Kross 45:27 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 45:27 ... in the room where the TV was.

Ethan Kross 45:29 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 45:29 Like, just, like, "I gotta change this around." And even thinking about packing Sunday night to come down. I have this thing about packing-

Ethan Kross 45:36 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 45:37 ... where I start to feel very overwhelmed and then I'm mad at myself that I didn't pack before, and now I'm beating myself up relentlessly. "Why, why is this so hard for you? Like, just make a damn list, and why didn't you do this-"

Ethan Kross 45:48 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 45:48 "... on Saturday morning? And Jesus, you meant to leave like two hours ago." And I'm like hammering myself, and that, of course, makes it impossible to leverage what you've already taught us-

Ethan Kross 45:58 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 45:58 ... which is the planning and forecasting aspect of your self-talk, because I'm so busy berating myself. So literally, I come down in the kitchen on Sunday night. I'm two and a half hours late leaving.

Ethan Kross 46:08 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 46:09 I'm not even packed yet, Ethan.

Ethan Kross 46:11 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 46:11 And I have clothes still spinning in the dryer upstairs. And you know what I did? I literally pulled out the junk drawer in the kitchen. And I-

Ethan Kross 46:19 And you started organizing.

Mel Robbins 46:20 Yes!

Ethan Kross 46:21 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 46:21 And my husband comes over and he's... puts his hand on j- on my shoulder. He's like, "You don't need to be doing this right now." And what I wanted to do is scream around being like... and I took a deep breath, and I was like, "Right." But what I'm realizing is, that was me trying to create order in what felt like a tornado of negativity-

Ethan Kross 46:42 That's exactly, that's exa-

Mel Robbins 46:42 ... in my brain.

Ethan Kross 46:43 ... that's exactly right.

Mel Robbins 46:44 Is that why we do to-do lists too?

Ethan Kross 46:46 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 46:46 Like, when we-

Ethan Kross 46:46 This is a way of-

Mel Robbins 46:47 ... feel overwhelmed?

Ethan Kross 46:47 ... it's a way of organizing. And so, thi- these can be useful tools for helping people to constrain their chatter, as long as we don't become overreliant on them, and I'm giving you that caveat. That is true, by the way, of all the tools that we're talking about and that I write about.

Mel Robbins 47:02 You know what I find interesting, too, about what you just said?

Ethan Kross 47:04 Hmm? Tell me.

Mel Robbins 47:06 The chaos doesn't bother me when I'm happy.

Ethan Kross 47:08 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 47:09 Like-

Ethan Kross 47:09 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 47:09 ... my desk can look like we tipped over an aisle-

Ethan Kross 47:12 That's right.

Mel Robbins 47:12 ... at Staples-

Ethan Kross 47:13 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 47:13 ... and just, crap everywhere, but if I start to feel overwhelmed or stressed at work, I don't do work, I clean my desk.

Ethan Kross 47:22 You described yourself so interesting, like, you get caught up in this kinda tizzy, so to speak, of, "Aah!" Right?

Mel Robbins 47:30 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 47:30 That kinda how it feels, right? Like-

Mel Robbins 47:31 Yeah.

Ethan Kross 47:31 "Let me out."

Mel Robbins 47:32 Yes. Yes.

Ethan Kross 47:32 "Let me... give me freedom!" And, and you're reflexively going to clean, and if that's working, great, but we can also get

Ethan Kross 47:42 even more sophisticated about... beforehand, thinking about, what are the two or three things that we wanna do when we find ourself in that state? And then, basically, ahead of time, coming up with a plan.

Mel Robbins 47:56 What do we do?

Ethan Kross 47:57 So, here's wh- we whoop it up.

Mel Robbins 47:58 You mean whoop it up.

Ethan Kross 47:59 Whoop it up. Just like, like... all right, another, another question here. What, what comes to mind when I say "whoop"?

Mel Robbins 48:05 Uh, like, I, I... like, isn't there that song-

Ethan Kross 48:07 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 48:08 ... "Whoop, there it is"?

Ethan Kross 48:08 You just redeemed yourself.

Mel Robbins 48:09 Did I? Okay.

Ethan Kross 48:10 Now, now we're back. We're at, like, 75%.

Mel Robbins 48:12 (laughs)

Ethan Kross 48:12 We're getting back. Yeah, "Whoop, There It Is," right?

Mel Robbins 48:14 Okay.

Ethan Kross 48:14 So, so, um, so, people have struggled endlessly. You go from listening to a podcast, reading a book.

Mel Robbins 48:22 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 48:22 You learn about information, and then, you know, the bleep hits the fan, and the question is... you don't do it. Right? It's the New Year's resolution dilemma.

Mel Robbins 48:34 Okay.

Ethan Kross 48:34 "I'm gonna lose the weight. I'm gonna go to the gym every day." Three days later, you stop doing it. And so, scientists have spent a ton of time trying to figure out...... why are we so bad at following through with our intentions, and how do we make people better? And you can boil down the decades of research into a simple framework called WOOP. Here's what it stands for. The W, so that's step one, that's your wish. So what is your goal? So your goal might be to calm the chatter down, like reduce the noise when you find yourself slipping into that state. That's the goal I want to achieve. Right?

Mel Robbins 49:10 Okay. That's the wish.

Ethan Kross 49:11 That's the wish. Okay. The first O, that's the outcome. So what's gonna happen to you if you achieve that goal?

Mel Robbins 49:20 Uh, I'm gonna have less stress, I am going to cause less drama for myself and other people, um, I am going to feel more at peace and more in control because all of this negative chatter and overwhelm that becomes very paralyzing, uh, makes me feel out of control and incapable. So the outcome would be very positive.

Ethan Kross 49:47 So, so great job.

Mel Robbins 49:49 Okay.

Ethan Kross 49:49 And the reason we focus-

Mel Robbins 49:50 I love the affirmations.

Ethan Kross 49:51 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 49:51 Just hang around all day.

Ethan Kross 49:53 Hey, I'm happy to give them. But it's true. And the reason why we do the, the outcome next, now we... Like, you've articulated your goal, we wanna energize you. Like, "This is a goal worth pursuing. This is worth my time." So now you're in this energized state for pursuing this goal. Now we get to the second O, which are the obstacles.

Mel Robbins 50:14 Okay.

Ethan Kross 50:14 The personal obstacles that are gonna stand in the way of you achieving this goal. So what, what might be an obstacle that might prevent you from turning the, the volume on your chatter down?

Mel Robbins 50:27 Um, I am fluent in negative self-talk.

Ethan Kross 50:29 Okay.

Mel Robbins 50:30 I am fantastic at criticizing myself. Uh, I, uh, can whip myself into a human tornado, uh, in a nanosecond. And, uh, it can be very effective when I get into a tizzy because other people try to help.

Ethan Kross 50:49 Okay.

Mel Robbins 50:50 That... So I think those are all lots of obstacles.

Ethan Kross 50:52 So-

Mel Robbins 50:52 Like, just being honest about, like-

Ethan Kross 50:54 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 50:54 ... I don't even know if I can do it would be an obstacle.

Ethan Kross 50:56 Yeah. So you mean turn the, turn the volume down?

Mel Robbins 50:59 Yeah.

Ethan Kross 51:00 Yeah. So you've just, you've just gone through your obstacles. So what we would then do-

Mel Robbins 51:03 Yeah.

Ethan Kross 51:03 ... we would focus on one of those obstacles to start, and we get to a P, which is our plan.

Mel Robbins 51:09 Okay.

Ethan Kross 51:10 But it's not any kind of plan. It's what we call an implementation intention. It's easier to call it a plan.

Mel Robbins 51:18 Yes.

Ethan Kross 51:18 It's basically an if-then plan. So if I find myself doomcasting and becoming, you know, uh, this savant in negative self-talk, then... And you plug in what you are going to do. You plug in the tools that you're gonna use in that situation. So if I find myself berating myself incessantly, then I'm going to coach myself using distant self-talk, go-

Mel Robbins 51:47 Mel, you can handle this.

Ethan Kross 51:48 ... go for a-

Mel Robbins 51:48 It's not that big of a deal.

Ethan Kross 51:49 Go for a walk in nature.

Mel Robbins 51:51 That's another tool in your book, go for a walk in nature.

Ethan Kross 51:53 Jump into the mental time travel machine, go forward and back. We'll talk about that in a little bit.

Mel Robbins 51:58 Okay.

Ethan Kross 51:58 Right? So when I-

Mel Robbins 51:59 Let's talk about it right now.

Ethan Kross 52:00 Wha- What I-

Mel Robbins 52:00 What do I do?

Ethan Kross 52:00 Wha- Okay, so met-

Mel Robbins 52:01 (laughs) Because after... What is it? I'm not gonna remember it.

Ethan Kross 52:03 Mental time travel are, are... These are two of the, the most useful tools that I possess along with distant self-talk. Super simple.

Mel Robbins 52:10 Okay.

Ethan Kross 52:10 We talk a lot about the importance of being in the moment, grounding ourselves and our breath. That is useful, but what we forget when we talk about being in the moment is, number one, our minds evolved to travel in time. And you can actually use that to your benefit. So number one, how am I gonna feel about this issue next week, next month, next year? Most of our emotions follow a time course. They get triggered, and as time goes on-

Mel Robbins 52:39 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 52:39 ... they eventually subside. Most of our emotional experience follow that trajectory, but when we are stuck in chatter, we just zoom in on the awfulness. It feels like it's never gonna end. When you jump into the time travel machine, "How am I gonna feel about this 10 years from now, 20 years from now?" It highlights the fact that what you're going through, as bad as it is, it's not permanent.

Mel Robbins 53:03 Hmm.

Ethan Kross 53:03 Things will eventually get better. It gives you hope, and that turns the volume on our chatter down. That's one thing you... That's mental time travel to the future.

Mel Robbins 53:11 I, I think that could work.

Ethan Kross 53:13 That's powerful for me.

Mel Robbins 53:15 And then, uh, that helps me also access the positive distance talk that you've taught us-

Ethan Kross 53:20 Exactly.

Mel Robbins 53:21 ... which is if I time travel even two week, like a week from now, though you've already packed and been on the trip and now you're home-

Ethan Kross 53:27 You got it.

Mel Robbins 53:27 ... like, it's not that big of a deal, and then I can start to go, "Mel, take a deep breath. You're capable of packing."

Ethan Kross 53:34 You got it. So you, you're blending these tools, which is of- also how these things actually operate in daily life, right? So we go back to the one thing, it's not one. Now we're doing two.

Mel Robbins 53:44 And you know what else I, I wanna point out? Because I think it's important to keep highlighting this. You've given us other tools-

Ethan Kross 53:51 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 53:51 ... of creating a ritual and playing music and going outside and taking a walk. In that moment, playing a song and taking a walk would just stress me out more.

Ethan Kross 54:00 Don't do it.

Mel Robbins 54:01 Right? And, but, but I can see how now you're starting to build this toolkit-

Ethan Kross 54:06 That's right.

Mel Robbins 54:06 ... where I'm not going for a walk right now, but I can time travel to calm myself down-

Ethan Kross 54:11 That's right.

Mel Robbins 54:11 ... and then I can use positive distance talk to say, "Mel, you can pack a bag."

Ethan Kross 54:18 That's right. So you can customize the tools based, again, on who you are and the circumstances you're in. So let's close the loop, though, on mental time travel, because we just talked about going into the future. You could also go into the past. Works a little bit differently.

Mel Robbins 54:33 Yeah.

Ethan Kross 54:33 For me, this is my, uh... Is ace in the hole the right term? I think it is.

Mel Robbins 54:37 I don't know. What does it mean?

Ethan Kross 54:39 Okay. It's like my secret superpower.

Mel Robbins 54:40 Oh, gotcha. Okay.

Ethan Kross 54:41 Yeah. Um, I think I might have gotten it wrong, but that's okay. So, um-

Mel Robbins 54:44 We'll give it to you.

Ethan Kross 54:45 See, yeah, o- well-

Mel Robbins 54:46 (laughs)

Ethan Kross 54:46 Now you're giving me the aphorisms.

Mel Robbins 54:47 See?

Ethan Kross 54:48 This is reciprocal.

Mel Robbins 54:49 (laughs)

Ethan Kross 54:49 It goes very well. Um, so, um-So, I... The story I open up my, my second book with, Shift, is a story of my grandmother in World War II, surviving the, the Nazis basically slaughtering her whole family. My grandmother's my ace in the hole. When things feel so big and, and just kinda, "How am I possibly gonna get through this?" I jump into the mental time travel machine, I go back to 1940 whatever and I spend just a little bit of time with my grandmother-

Mel Robbins 55:22 Hmm.

Ethan Kross 55:22 ... in my mind. And what that does for me is it, it, it zooms me out.

Mel Robbins 55:27 Hmm.

Ethan Kross 55:27 It makes it super clear to me that what I'm going through, as, as difficult as it is, it pales in comparison to what she went through and survived. And I think we all have those personal experiences or experiences in our family or in our culture that you can anchor on-

Mel Robbins 55:48 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 55:49 ... to put what we're going through in perspective.

Mel Robbins 55:52 Is there a... something you would add to that, though? Because if you're a world-class self-critic and berater-

Ethan Kross 56:01 Yeah. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 56:01 ... I could see that strategy being something that only becomes more evidence where you go, "And you're such a piece of crap that you're sitting here working yourself up about this thing."

Ethan Kross 56:12 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 56:12 How... Y- You know what I'm saying? Like you actually sh-

Ethan Kross 56:13 You want... E-

Mel Robbins 56:14 So, c- how do you take that to give yourself perspective but then keep yourself lifted-

Ethan Kross 56:20 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 56:20 ... in your capacity to coach yourself through it?

Ethan Kross 56:23 You, you wanna keep the spotlight on the challenge that they endured-

Mel Robbins 56:28 Yep.

Ethan Kross 56:28 ... compared to what you're dealing with right now-

Mel Robbins 56:30 Right, as a reminder that you can-

Ethan Kross 56:30 ... and really use it as a source of motivation, as a, as-

Mel Robbins 56:33 Got it. Okay.

Ethan Kross 56:34 Exactly. Not to, not to... You don't wanna slip back into the, "Well, you know, anything sets you off." That would defeat the purpose of that exercise. And if you find that doing that leads you i- into that territory, don't use that tool.

Mel Robbins 56:52 Yeah. Oh-

Ethan Kross 56:52 Use a different one.

Mel Robbins 56:53 That's great.

Ethan Kross 56:53 And, and that's, that's, that's a really important take-home for these tools. Different tools work for different people-

Mel Robbins 56:59 Hmm.

Ethan Kross 56:59 ... in

Ethan Kross 57:00 different situations.

Mel Robbins 57:01 How important of a role does environment play in self-talk being positive or negative?

Ethan Kross 57:07 It, it can, it can play a big role, um, in a few different ways. So, um, so we already talked about your local environment, how the way you structure your environment, how organized it is, can affect what's happening between your ears. Um, there's also ways of, of, of putting things in your environment to trigger positive experiences like, uh, pictures of loved ones-

Mel Robbins 57:34 Hmm.

Ethan Kross 57:34 ... which, you know, sounds so, so silly on the one hand, but we did this research years ago where we had people, um, think about really painful experiences and we had them then look at a picture of a loved one or a picture of someone else's loved one to see, what are the implications of looking at your, what we call attachment figure, someone you're really connected to.

Mel Robbins 57:57 Mm.

Ethan Kross 57:58 And what we found is that looking at that person that you care about, this activates a sense that there are people in this world that support you, which sped up how quickly people recovered from, from a distressing experience. So after that research, I, like, went on a shopping spree for pho- um, picture frames-

Mel Robbins 58:18 Hmm.

Ethan Kross 58:18 ... and, like, my in- my off- all of my offices have pictures of, of my family and friends all around it-

Mel Robbins 58:24 Well, I think-

Ethan Kross 58:24 ... for that reason.

Mel Robbins 58:25 Yeah, I think that, that, you know, if you think about walking through an office, oftentimes that's the thing that tes- tethers you through the day.

Ethan Kross 58:32 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 58:32 Is the reminder of what's meaningful in your life-

Ethan Kross 58:35 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 58:35 ... especially when you're having a stressful day.

Ethan Kross 58:37 Exactly.

Mel Robbins 58:37 Sort of like the way that you time traveled backwards to your grandmother.

Ethan Kross 58:40 Helps, helps put things in perspective.

Mel Robbins 58:42 Correct.

Ethan Kross 58:43 So that's, that's one thing you can do.

Mel Robbins 58:44 Okay.

Ethan Kross 58:45 Um, green space exposure. Uh, I was a little, um, hesitant to really buy into this when I first started, uh, researching this space. I come from a, a place we, we talked about before, Brooklyn, New York.

Mel Robbins 58:59 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 58:59 I, I like to remind people that one of the most famous books to come out of this borough or about this borough was titled A Tree Grows in Brooklyn.

Mel Robbins 59:09 (laughs)

Ethan Kross 59:09 Singular, right? So, like, there's not a lot of, um... There was not a lot of green space growing up-

Mel Robbins 59:15 Yeah.

Ethan Kross 59:15 ... and, um, I'm a city guy. I find green space exposure to be, um, quite profound in terms of how it impacts my emotional life. And there's been a lot of research on this, and what happens is when you're stuck in chatter, it consumes your attention. It's the only thing you can think about.

Mel Robbins 59:36 So true.

Ethan Kross 59:36 When you go for a walk in a, in a safe, natural setting, what happens is your attention is, is captured by your surroundings, but in a very gentle way. The sights, the sounds, the smells, like, your attention just drifts on them. And what that does is it gives you this opportunity to rest and restore over the course of that walk. So you finish it, you're feeling more rejuvenated, and you actually have more attentional capacity to work through your problems. So that's one way that your environment, in, in particular green space exposure, can help you.

Mel Robbins 1:00:11 You know, I just had an experience where last week I, you know, got some very, very difficult news, and so I had a horrible night's sleep, could not fall asleep, woke up, it was like 5:15 in the morning, which is ungodly early for me.

Ethan Kross 1:00:27 Mm.

Mel Robbins 1:00:27 And it was pitch dark outside, my husband Chris was gone, and I laid there and I could just feel the negative, "What if this and what if that?" Where you're just kind of trying to problem solve through something that's scaring you to death in your life or your work-

Ethan Kross 1:00:41 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:00:41 ... or whatever. And I thought, "I need to get the hell out of this bed." So I got up, I got the dogs outside, and then I thought, "I should go for a walk even though the moon is still out."... and it is pitch dark because my mind is a horrendous place right now, and the last thing I want to do is look at social media or try to solve it that way, so... or log on to email. And so I put on my coat, and I still had my pajamas on, and I started walking down the driveway. And as I was walking in the pitch dark, and I'm seeing the moon start to lower, and I started thinking to myself, sort of like you thought about your grandmother, about the fact that in the scale of humanity and the fact that I am but a speck on this planet hurtling through space, the crap that's keeping me up at... Like, I'm s- again, still negative, shaming myself if, if you take notice. But as I rounded the corner and the, the moon is set, it probably took about 13 to 15 minutes of walking, but there was an owl. It was like, "Hoo, hoo." And I'm like, "Oh, that, the owl doesn't care." And as I kept walking and my senses were activated, it pulled me into the experience of the walking, and then the sun started to come up. And slowly but surely, I noticed that the beatdown was gone.

Ethan Kross 1:02:09 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:02:10 Why does that work?

Ethan Kross 1:02:11 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:02:11 Because I think we've all experienced feeling better and clearing our mind-

Ethan Kross 1:02:16 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:02:17 ... when we either take a walk, or if it's available to you, you can get outside in green space.

Ethan Kross 1:02:24 Yeah. So a couple of things I want to point out. So number one, you said 13 minutes. You said it took about 13 minutes, and the way I interpreted you saying that was like, it took a while.

Mel Robbins 1:02:33 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 1:02:34 But if you think 13 minutes is a while, how much time have you spent in that negative self-talk?

Mel Robbins 1:02:41 56 years.

Ethan Kross 1:02:42 56 years. I think 13 minutes is pretty damn good.

Mel Robbins 1:02:45 Yes. Yes.

Ethan Kross 1:02:45 Like, 13 minutes is probably quicker than the amount of time it takes for Tylenol to have its effect when you've got a bad headache.

Mel Robbins 1:02:53 Hmm.

Ethan Kross 1:02:54 Right? Like, that is pretty magical. So, we talked a little bit about how nature can help us restore. That's one way it can help us. Another thing that it does is it gives us the opportunity to experience the emotion of awe, which is an emotion we experience when we're in the presence of something vast and indescribable, something that just feels bigger than ourselves. And nature is replete with those awe triggers, like the moon. It's so beautiful, and these, you know... Y- you're in, you're in southern Vermont. I've been up there at times. It's, it's gorgeous up there.

Mel Robbins 1:03:27 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 1:03:28 When we experience this emotion of awe, what it does is it leads to what we call a shrinking of the self.

Mel Robbins 1:03:35 Hmm.

Ethan Kross 1:03:35 You feel smaller when you're contemplating something vast and indescribable. Here you are, Mel. You're worried about this thing. I'm sure it's a leg-... It feels... doesn't only f- almost feel legitimate. I'm sure it feels existential in the moment-

Mel Robbins 1:03:49 Yes.

Ethan Kross 1:03:49 ... that you're having it. Like, "It's over. I'm over."

Mel Robbins 1:03:52 (laughs)

Ethan Kross 1:03:52 "The world is over," right? Like, yeah. We've all been there. We know what it's like. Well, when you're in nature and you have this opportunity to experience awe, it just, it makes you and your concerns feel a whole lot smaller when you're contemplating the vastness of maybe, like, the site you're in. I mean, you're probably walking somewhere trees were alive for hundreds of years. Right? Like, that makes what you're dealing with just feel a little bit more insignificant. And when we shrink ourselves in that way, our problems shrink too. So, um, so I will often weaponize this by going for walks in the local arboretum-

Mel Robbins 1:04:30 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 1:04:30 ... when I'm really struggling with something, and it inevitably helps. It's like, "What am... I'm worried about this? Like, when there are so many more things happening in the universe? Like, come on. Let's get back into gear."

Mel Robbins 1:04:44 Yeah, and more importantly, I think it helps you access the other tools because, you know-

Ethan Kross 1:04:47 Absolutely.

Mel Robbins 1:04:47 ... the thing is, is that the walk didn't disappear the problem.

Ethan Kross 1:04:49 That's, that's exactly right.

Mel Robbins 1:04:50 It actually lowered the chatter, and so when I got back, and into my workday, and inevitably other things happen that then bring it back up-

Ethan Kross 1:04:58 You got it.

Mel Robbins 1:04:58 ... whether I started organizing my desk-

Ethan Kross 1:05:00 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:05:00 ... or I'm using the other tools, I can see what you're teaching us, which is, you have the ability to catch it-

Ethan Kross 1:05:10 That's right.

Mel Robbins 1:05:11 ... when it's taking you down.

Ethan Kross 1:05:12 That's right.

Mel Robbins 1:05:13 And then use these tools to create distance from it.

Mel Robbins 1:05:17 So, there are so many tools in the book, and we've covered a bunch of them so far, but what are some other quick and simple tactics and tools that the person listening can use to make their inner voice more positive?

Ethan Kross 1:05:30 Okay. So, let's enter into the rapid-fire part of the conversation. Uh, sensory experiences, tremendously underutilized tool. I was blind to this up until relatively recently in my life when my daughter was in a, um, a terrible mood, was bumming me out, and, um, one of the great songs of all time came on the radio in the car, or iPad, whatever you call it nowadays, Journey's Don't Stop Believin', and everyone got excited and happy in the car. Music effortlessly shifts our emotions. You can use this yourself. You can use it to shift other people's emotions. All of the senses are useful tools to shift our emotions. Scents. I'm staying at a hotel not far from here. The moment I walked into the hotel, I was, I was awash with this pleasant scent that the hotel has been piping through the ventilation system to make the patrons feel comfortable. We spritz ourselves with chemicals to make ourselves feel good and make other people feel good. Our senses are powerful tools. Um, let's talk about other people, though.

Mel Robbins 1:06:42 Okay.

Ethan Kross 1:06:42 Because other people, I think, are really important.

Mel Robbins 1:06:44 Hmm.

Ethan Kross 1:06:44 And it touches back to this, this problem where sometimes we go to other people and we push them away. So how do you...How do you find other people in your life to actually help you when it comes to your chatter, or your, the big emotions you're experiencing? I call these our chatter advisors.

Mel Robbins 1:07:05 Okay.

Ethan Kross 1:07:05 How do you find your chatter advisors? You want to look for people who do two things. There are two key steps to providing good chatter support. Step one, you want to listen, empathize, validate, connect with the person, right? Lots of big terms there, but what I mean is, like, you want to be there emotionally for that person. "I want to learn about what you're going through. Like, I really would like to know what set you off at 5:00 A.M. the other day. Tell me about it. That's terrible. Like, I've been there too." Genuinely connecting.

Mel Robbins 1:07:38 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 1:07:38 What that does is it- it- it helps satisfy the person who's suffering, these needs they have to feel connected. Once I do that, then I want to shift into this kind of advice or cognitive mode. So, all right, now we're connected. You can rely on me. But the problem's still there. Let's try to- let's try to look at it. And- and as someone who is not going through the problem myself, I'm in a great position to help put it in perspective for you.

Mel Robbins 1:08:07 Yep.

Ethan Kross 1:08:08 Those are the two steps to providing good chatter support, and you would be amazed at how frequently people who are exceptionally well-intentioned don't follow those t- two steps. There are two ways it breaks down. Number one, some people think that their job is just give you a sounding board to let it out. "Just keep going," right? There's value in that, in- in connecting and learning, but if that's all we do in a conversation, it can lead to what we call co-rumination.

Mel Robbins 1:08:39 Hmm.

Ethan Kross 1:08:39 Now we're just kinda bathing ourselves in the- in the problem together. And, as a function, that we often leave the conversation feeling connected, but the problem's still there. That doesn't work. The other thing that doesn't work, you come to me with a problem, and within five seconds, "Now, ugh, this is simple. You know, like, I wrote a paper on this. Here's what you need to do. Just do A, B, C, D, you'll be fine. Call me in the morning." We call those people jerks.

Mel Robbins 1:09:06 (laughs)

Ethan Kross 1:09:06 Right? Or- or-

Mel Robbins 1:09:07 Or Mel Robbins.

Ethan Kross 1:09:08 (laughs) I doubt, I doubt that.

Mel Robbins 1:09:10 (laughs)

Ethan Kross 1:09:10 And so- so you really want to follow both of those steps in that order. Listen and then advise. There's an art to doing that well. So I'll use my wife here as an example, right?

Mel Robbins 1:09:21 Is she gonna kill you?

Ethan Kross 1:09:21 She might kill me-

Mel Robbins 1:09:22 Okay.

Ethan Kross 1:09:22 ... but it's okay. We love each other. Um, so if my wife came to me with- with a problem that she was, um, experiencing some chatter about, I would immediately start listening, empathizing, connecting. And when I sensed that she had gotten it out, and I really understood the problem, I would ask her for permission. I'd be like, "Hey, I- I totally get it. I have a- I have a thought. You wanna- do you wanna keep going, or can I share it with you?" Sometimes, the way that she'll answer that question is, "No, I'm not done. Just let me keep going." And then I let her keep going, and then I come back to it.

Mel Robbins 1:10:04 Okay.

Ethan Kross 1:10:05 At other moments, it'll be, "Yes, please. What do you think? Let's, you know, help me." And so, what I love about this framework that I essentially just described, that we just talked about, is it gives me guideposts for how to steer this conversation. When someone comes to me, so my wife, my friend, my students, whoever, there are these two steps that I follow, in the s- in the- in the same sequence each time.

Mel Robbins 1:10:31 Hmm.

Ethan Kross 1:10:31 Step one is I'm there to empathize and connect, listen and learn. Step two, now I'm gonna try to help work with the person to broaden their perspective. "So this has happened to you before. How'd you deal with it last time?" Or, you know, "Something like this happened to me and here's what I did." Simple ways for broadening perspective. Like couple of questions like that you ask, it often helps the person find the answer. I will often ask people to do a- a chatter advisor audit. So I'll have people, like, divide their world into personal and professional, and then I ask them to list who, all the names of the people they go to to talk about the chatter when it erupts. Then I'll explain to them how this art of chatter advising that we've just gone over, that the key to being a good advisor is to empathize, listen, and then shift into that advising.

Mel Robbins 1:11:21 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 1:11:21 And I'll have them circle the names of the people on their list who do both of those things. And I have them cross out the names of the people who- who don't. The people whose names you circle, that's your advisory board, and it's not always the people that you're closest to. Eh-

Mel Robbins 1:11:36 Oftentimes, it's actually not.

Ethan Kross 1:11:37 It's not, and that's okay. You know, there are people who I love, who I'm super close to, I don't talk to them about my chatter. It- it doesn't help me. It actually pushes me in the wrong direction.

Mel Robbins 1:11:46 Hmm.

Ethan Kross 1:11:47 Um, but my board is an amazing asset that I possess, and I lean on it frequently to deal with my chatter.

Mel Robbins 1:11:55 Uh, Ethan, what does a person do if they're, you know, listening to you and they've got someone in their life who's really struggling because of the way they talk to themselves? I mean, just down on themselves, down emotionally. What is the best thing that you can do to help somebody that you care about when you see them really beaten down?

Ethan Kross 1:12:16 So, I like to divide the way of helping others into- into two buckets. One thing you can do, if they come to you for help-

Mel Robbins 1:12:26 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 1:12:26 ... as often happens to us, people want to talk to us, people want our support, then you, um, you follow that- that guide that we just talked about. You listen and learn and then you advise. And part of the advice is giving them the tools. Like, the way we help others is- is teaching others about these tools. I do this with my kids all the time, right? Like, I'm constantly complaining that we're born into the world with the ex- the ability to experience chatter and big emotions. We're not born into the world with a user's guide that teaches us these tools. So, if my kids come to me...I listen, I, and then I offer them tools. But then there's another situation where you see people you care about, your colleagues, your loved ones, and they don't ask you for help. And then the question is, well, what do you do? Do you let them just figure it out on their own, suffer in silence? Do you volunteer the support without them asking? There's been research on this.

Mel Robbins 1:13:21 Hmm.

Ethan Kross 1:13:21 And, and it's tricky. The research shows that if you volunteer the support without the person asking, it has the potential to blow up in your face. As a parent, I'm sure you've experienced this, as I know I have. So sometimes if I've seen my kids, I know they're struggling with something, this is something I can help them with, and I volunteer the advice... Ar, ar, ar, ar, ar. You know? Is basically a mild version of how they respond. When you offer support and it's not asked for, what that does is it communicates to the person that they're not capable of handling their own circumstances, and that can elicit defensiveness. So, here's the really cool thing. We have learned how you can still help people when they don't ask for help, and what it involves doing is providing support invisibly.

Mel Robbins 1:14:13 Okay. A- is this another one of these secret weapons?

Ethan Kross 1:14:16 This is a secret weapon that everyone, that you are list- if you're listening, you now have a secret weapon that...

Mel Robbins 1:14:22 Lay it on us, Ethan.

Ethan Kross 1:14:22 Okay. So-

Mel Robbins 1:14:23 How do we do invisible support?

Ethan Kross 1:14:24 Invisible support is providing people with support but without shining a spotlight on the fact that you're doing it. You kind of asked me about this earlier when you asked me about how do you tactfully help another person when they're struggling. This is how you do it.

Mel Robbins 1:14:37 Okay.

Ethan Kross 1:14:37 And there are many forms this can take. I'll give you a couple of examples. Let's say someone on my team or, or, you know, my lab is, is, uh, working under a really tense deadline, and I, I, they don't have time to take care of themselves and do simple things. I, I can just order in food for them.

Mel Robbins 1:14:58 Hmm.

Ethan Kross 1:14:58 If my wife is struggling with, like, lots of stress at work, lots of chatter, it's her turn to get the groceries, like, I just do the groceries, pick up the dry cleaning. I don't do it, come home, and ask for a pat on my back. I just do things to make the other person's life just a little bit easier, a little bit more manageable. That's one way of supporting someone invisibly. Let's say someone else is struggling with a skill. Um, let's say it's public speaking. So someone on my team is struggling with communicating their science in a way that people can understand-

Mel Robbins 1:15:35 Mm-hmm.

Ethan Kross 1:15:36 ... with impact. Before I take them aside and say, "Hey, I've noticed that you could do a little bit better here, here are three things I, I want you to try," I'll first have a team meeting, and we'll all share out best practice. What are the two or three things that we've all benefited from for speaking more effectively? What I'm doing there is I am getting the person information they can benefit from, but I'm not shining a spotlight on the fact that I'm targeting it to them. So even sharing sources that you've benefited from, podcast episodes, books, share that with someone else. You don't have to target it to them and say, "Hey, this is gonna help you." But if you found the material meaningful, just share it in that context, and what it does is it, it gives them the opportunity to benefit as well, but without you think- without them thinking, "This was specifically targeted to them."

Mel Robbins 1:16:28 Oh, you could always do it in a group chat.

Ethan Kross 1:16:30 Group chat.

Mel Robbins 1:16:30 That's my favorite thing to do is just hit the family group chat, hit the friend chat-

Ethan Kross 1:16:34 This-

Mel Robbins 1:16:34 "Hey, everybody."

Ethan Kross 1:16:35 Thi-

Mel Robbins 1:16:35 "Great episode."

Ethan Kross 1:16:35 Great e- "This episode was awesome. I learned so much," or, "This book was great." Yeah, those are simple things you can do, and I do that all the time. Let me close the loop on invisible support 'cause-

Mel Robbins 1:16:45 Yeah.

Ethan Kross 1:16:45 ... I told you about two ways you can do it. There's a third, and it's my favorite.

Mel Robbins 1:16:50 What is that?

Ethan Kross 1:16:50 It's affectionate but not creepy touch.

Mel Robbins 1:16:55 (laughs)

Ethan Kross 1:16:55 Are you familiar with this one?

Mel Robbins 1:16:56 Yeah, that's what aunts do, not uncles. (laughs)

Ethan Kross 1:16:58 Well, de- definitely not uncles.

Mel Robbins 1:17:01 (laughs)

Ethan Kross 1:17:01 But it's what moms and dads do.

Mel Robbins 1:17:02 That's true.

Ethan Kross 1:17:03 You know?

Mel Robbins 1:17:03 Affectionate but not creepy.

Ethan Kross 1:17:04 Yeah, like, what do you do with your kids when they're born into this world? First thing we do?

Mel Robbins 1:17:08 Oh, I just hold them against you. You hug them.

Ethan Kross 1:17:11 That's right. And, and we have receptors on our skin that encode for an affectionate embrace, and when it's registered, there's this automatic release-

Mel Robbins 1:17:20 Hmm.

Ethan Kross 1:17:20 ... of, of stress-fighting chemicals that flood our system. And so, you know, if, if my daughters are experiencing something challenging, or my, my wife, I'll, you know, just kinda give them a hug or caress their back. Again, not creepy.

Mel Robbins 1:17:35 (laughs)

Ethan Kross 1:17:35 Um, but even at work, you know, like, a fist bump-

Mel Robbins 1:17:39 Right.

Ethan Kross 1:17:39 ... right? Is a simple way. We are a social-

Mel Robbins 1:17:42 Pat on the back to somebody.

Ethan Kross 1:17:43 Pat on the back, right? Tac- tactile species. That's a way of supporting-

Mel Robbins 1:17:47 Yeah.

Ethan Kross 1:17:47 ... someone invisibly as well.

Mel Robbins 1:17:49 I totally get it.

Ethan Kross 1:17:50 Yeah. You do wanna make sure to convey the not creepy part of it though.

Mel Robbins 1:17:54 For sure.

Ethan Kross 1:17:55 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:17:55 Um, I would love to have you speak directly to the person listening because you have shared so much with us about your research and ways that we can flip that negative chatter into a positive coach. Um, and, uh, just so many tools-

Ethan Kross 1:18:14 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:18:14 ... to reach for that will help you do that. If the person takes just one action based on everything that you've poured into us from your two books, Chatter and Shift, what is the most important thing t- to do?

Ethan Kross 1:18:30 The most important thing to do is learn about the tools. Just familiarize yourself with them. What I love about these tools is decades of, of research have gone into their identification. Complex, back-breaking effort, but the take homes are super simple. Mental time travel. How am I gonna feel about this next year? I- into the past, you know? How does this compare with what Bubby went through, my grandmother? Ethan, you've got this. I mean, these are simple things that don't take a whole lot of-... time and energy to practice, just familiarize yourself with them and then start self-experimenting. That is the, that is the, the launchpad for gaining control of your chatter. And so, um, so my invitation to you is to familiarize yourself with the tools that are out there, start self-experimenting, find the tools that work best for you, and share them with other people. That is the way I think we help really combat this, this universal affliction.

Mel Robbins 1:19:36 Ethan, you are so awesome.

Ethan Kross 1:19:39 Now you're giving me all the, the ad-

Mel Robbins 1:19:40 Well, no, I, I...

Ethan Kross 1:19:40 ... emphasis, so I, I thank you.

Mel Robbins 1:19:40 ... actually mean it. Like, I'm stunned because this topic can be so heady and you made it so accessible and tactical, just like you said that you would.

Ethan Kross 1:19:48 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:19:49 Congratulations on the best-selling book, The Manual, that now exists for all of us to turn our inner critic into positive coaching chatter. Congratulations on your mega best-seller, Shift. I am so happy you came. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Ethan Kross 1:20:05 Well, the feeling is totally, totally, totally-

Mel Robbins 1:20:07 (laughs)

Ethan Kross 1:20:08 ... mutual.

Mel Robbins 1:20:09 And I also wanna thank you. Thank you for choosing to spend time listening to something that can help you create a better life. And there's no doubt in my mind that everything that Ethan taught us today is going to help you change your self-talk from something that is beating you down to something that's lifting you up, and that will change your life and the life of people that you care about. Thank you for sharing this with people that you care about. And in case no one else tells you, I wanna tell you, in the words of Ethan, "You got this. You can do this." And I also wanna tell you in case no one else does, I love you, I admire the fact that you're taking time to listen to something like this, and I know it was worth your time, and I also know it's