The Mel Robbins PodcastHow to Stop Negative Thoughts & Reset Your Mind for Positive Thinking
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,130 words- 0:00 – 22:34
Welcome
- EKEthan Kross
If you experience worry, rumination, if you find your inner critic activating at times, there's nothing wrong with you. We evolve the capacity to experience negative emotions for a reason. "Why did I do this? Why didn't I do it that way? You idiot. How could you do this? You're worthless." We think about the what ifs. "What if this happens? What if that happens?" And before you know it, you know, life is over (instrumental music plays) . Here's what I hope everyone takes away from this.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- EKEthan Kross
Three things. Number one, you'll be able to take your inner critic and turn it into an inner coach. Number two, if you ever find yourself falling down the rabbit hole of rumination and worry, we're gonna give you some lifelines to pull yourself out. And then number three-
- MRMel Robbins
Wow.
- EKEthan Kross
So, we got our work cut out for us.
- MRMel Robbins
That's a tall order.
- EKEthan Kross
Yeah. We better get started.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, I've read your books, so I know you can deliver on that. So, Ethan, what exactly is that voice that's in our head that's chattering 4,000 words a minute?
- EKEthan Kross
So when scientists like myself use, use this phrase "self-talk" or "the inner voice," what we're talking about is-
- MRMel Robbins
I've never heard anybody explain self-talk and that inner voice in a way that I actually get it. What is the solution? Is there a simple way to shut it up in order to-
- EKEthan Kross
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... just silence all of this negative self-talk, or is this a much more complicated thing that we need to take on?
- EKEthan Kross
The most important thing to do is... (clock ticks) (instrumental music plays)
- MRMel Robbins
Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so fired up for our conversation today. I'm so excited that you're here. It is always such an honor to spend time together and to be with you. And if you're a new listener, I just want to take a moment and personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. I'm thrilled that you're here. And because you made the time to hit play and listen to this particular episode, it tells me something about you. It tells me that you're the kind of person who wants to take control of your inner voice, and you want to learn how to be more encouraging and positive, especially when it comes to yourself. And you know what? I think that's amazing, because I want to learn how to do that too. And if you're listening right now or you're watching on YouTube because someone shared this with you, I want to take a minute and point out to you that that means that you've got someone in your life that really cares about you. And so thank you for trusting them, and thank you for being here. And this is a home run of a podcast episode for you to listen to or watch, because Dr. Ethan Kross is in the house. He is a psychologist and a neuroscientist, and he's been a pioneering researcher in the field of self-talk and emotions for 25 years. Ethan Kross is also a professor at the University of Michigan, where he has taught for the past 17 years. He is also the founder and the director of the research institute at the University of Michigan, the Emotion and Self-Control Laboratory. His work has appeared in esteemed journals like Science and The New England Journal of Medicine. He earned his PHD from Columbia University, and he is also the author of two best-selling books, Chatter: The Voice in Our Head: Why It Matters and How to Harness It, and his latest best-selling book is called Shift: Managing Your Emotions So They Don't Manage You. His books have been translated into over 40 languages, and today, he's gonna unpack the insights so that you can use this research to stop the negative self-talk. So please help me welcome Dr. Ethan Kross to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Thank you for hopping on a plane and being here in our Boston studios. I cannot wait to dig into your work in your, uh, best-selling book Chatter, and of course, congratulations on your new book, Shift. It's so exciting to have you here.
- EKEthan Kross
Well, it's a, it's an absolute honor to be here with you. You know, I've been, um, listening to you for quite some time, and the, the compatibility between a lot of what you talk about and, um, what I write about and do research on couldn't, couldn't be better. So, um, just an honor to be here.
- MRMel Robbins
Awesome. Well, let's just jump right into it, and here's how I wanna start. I would love to have you... Do you want me to call you Professor Kross, Ethan? What do you like?
- EKEthan Kross
I love Ethan.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay, Ethan.
- EKEthan Kross
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
We're going with Ethan.
- EKEthan Kross
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Ethan, I would love to have you speak directly to the person who's-
- EKEthan Kross
Sure.
- MRMel Robbins
... here spending time together with us right now-
- EKEthan Kross
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... and tell them exactly what they could expect to have be different about their life if they take everything that you're about to teach us about our self-talk, about our emotions, to heart, and they put it to use in their life.
- EKEthan Kross
Here's what I, here's what I hope everyone takes away from this.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- EKEthan Kross
Three things. Number one, you'll be able to take your inner critic and turn it into an inner coach. Number two, if you ever find yourself falling down the rabbit hole of rumination and worry, we're gonna give you some lifelines to pull yourself out so you can actually use your mind to solve your problems rather, rather than just get stuck in them. And then number three, more broadly, we're gonna give you lots of really pragmatic, tactical tools, simple-to-use tools, that you can use to really master your emotions. So, if you wanna turn the volume on them up or down or shorten or lengthen how long they last or even switch from one emotional state to another, we're gonna give you some guideposts that, that steer you in the right direction.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow.
- 22:34 – 28:54
The 3 Most Common Types of Negative Self-Talk
- MRMel Robbins
self-talk?
- EKEthan Kross
So there, there are three, three key forms. Number one, what I call rumination, which is going over the past, something you did in the past. You can't fix it, right? But you just keep turning it over and over in your mind. "Why did I do this? Why didn't I do it that way? What implications might this have moving forward?" So rumination is getting lost in this thought. It's a legitimate issue from the past, and you're trying to work through it, but you just keep turning it over and over. You're not making any progress. That's often a telltale sign of chatter. Legitimate issue, you wanna work through it, but you don't make progress. Rumi-
- MRMel Robbins
So it could be, like, just to give it even a more fine point, it could be that you really screwed up in a relationship, and now you're telling yourself the one got away.
- EKEthan Kross
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Or y- you made dumb financial decisions. This was me, and, and now it's, I'm n- why did I do that? I, I, I should have started with my 401k like my father told me when I graduated from college.
- EKEthan Kross
That's right.
- MRMel Robbins
Like, da, da, da. Like, just hammering yourself into the ground. How did I let myself go? I should have, like, I've, I've, I've just d- now it's too late. I- I've been drinking. Like, all that kind of stuff-
- EKEthan Kross
All that.
- MRMel Robbins
... that's in the past. And, and why is this such a predominant form of self-talk for people?
- EKEthan Kross
Well, it's a predominant form because I often think that we, we navigate life in an ideal sense on autopilot. We just kinda wanna live the life, you know, knowing that the world is, is, is orderly, it's safe, it's predictable, and then when we encounter some, some challenge to that view that the world is safe, that everything's okay, it's like an alarm gets hit in our brains that says, "Stop, pay attention, fix this." And so then we zoom in really narrowly on what the impediment is. And so maybe it's something from the past. Then we keep focusing on it.... until we can resolve it. Oftentimes, though, we don't know how to resolve it. We just keep on playing it over and over in our minds, and then the alarm button stays pressed, and we just get into this rut of turning it over and over and over. And we don't, some of us don't wanna let go of that e- either because at least if we're focusing on it, that's step one. But in the process of doing that, we're, we're really harming ourselves. We're making it im- very challenging to think and perform. I mean, have you ever gets, gotten stuck in rumination and then tried to have a conversation with someone or read a book only to find that you're physically there or you're reading the information on the page, but nothing is penetrating 'cause your mind is somewhere else?
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, completely.
- EKEthan Kross
Right?
- MRMel Robbins
Absolutely. Like, if I get into that loop where I am obsessing over something that I think I did wrong, I can't do anything else.
- EKEthan Kross
Exactly. So, think, that's, that's thinking and performance, right? Like, that is a major, major obstacle to being successful in life if, if your ability to really hone your attention now is lost. And the way that works, just, if you wanna geek out with me for 30 seconds-
- MRMel Robbins
Sure.
- EKEthan Kross
Um, our ability to focus is limited. We have these limited attentional resources. They are, um, they're, they're subserved by our prefrontal cortex, the front part of our brains. And chatter acts like a sponge that soaks up all of those attentional resources, and it leaves very little left over to do the things that we often want and need to do, whether that be just pay attention to the person we're talking to or read the chapter in the book and absorb the information. That's one of the way it really sinks us.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- EKEthan Kross
So, so you asked though, like, how does chatter manifest? Rumination about the past is one. Uh, another one that will be familiar to everyone in the world, (laughs) or, or most of us is, is worry.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- EKEthan Kross
Right? We, we worry about the future. We think about the what-ifs. We are what-if machines. We can easily, "What if this happens? What if that happens?" And before you know it, you know, life is over.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- EKEthan Kross
Right? And that goes really fast. So, worrying is, is getting stuck in these negative thought loops, typically about the present and future. Rumination-
- MRMel Robbins
Got it. So, rumination, the first-
- EKEthan Kross
... is the past.
- MRMel Robbins
The first is the past. The second form of self-talk is getting stuck in a negative loop, talking to yourself about the future.
- EKEthan Kross
That's right.
- MRMel Robbins
What's the third form?
- EKEthan Kross
The third form that is very common to folks is this self-beratement, this kind of like, "You idiot." You know, you know, "How could you do this? You're worthless." So, this kind of inner critic is-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- EKEthan Kross
... another manifestation of it.
- 28:54 – 39:37
Your Toolkit to Silence Negative Self-Talk
- MRMel Robbins
what is a solution? I mean, now that you're-
- EKEthan Kross
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... you're exposing all the negative self-talk, I mean, is there a simple way to shut it up or a magic wand you can wave in order to just-
- EKEthan Kross
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... silence all of this negative self-talk? Or is this a much more complicated thing that we need to take on?
- EKEthan Kross
Well, there's not one simple thing that everyone can do, um-
- MRMel Robbins
I don't like that answer.
- EKEthan Kross
Yes, I'm sure you don't.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- EKEthan Kross
But I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you-
- MRMel Robbins
There goes my negative chatter-
- EKEthan Kross
I- But, but, but, but-
- MRMel Robbins
... right out my mouth at you.
- EKEthan Kross
But, but, but, uh, but I'm gonna give you, there are lots of simple things you can do-
- MRMel Robbins
Oh.
- EKEthan Kross
... is the way to think about it.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, I like that.
- EKEthan Kross
So, um, yeah, you should. There's a lot of hope. There's a lot-
- MRMel Robbins
That's good.
- EKEthan Kross
There's a lot you could-
- MRMel Robbins
There is? 'Cause I feel bummed.
- EKEthan Kross
I th- I think you should feel good when I tell you that there's not one thing you can do to manage your chatter, because here's what often happens when you give people one solution. They try it, that one thing doesn't work for them, and now they think, "What's wrong with me?"
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- EKEthan Kross
"Why is this working for everyone else, but not me?" We just published some research not too long ago, uh, that looked at how people dealt with their anxiety during the COVID pandemic. So, we did these large studies. We tracked people over time, and every day, we had them rate their COVID anxiety, and we had them indicate which of something like 18 different tools they used. Now, all we wanted to know was, well, what are the tools that are moving the needle?
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- EKEthan Kross
So, what was really interesting about that study was there was no individual tool that moved the needle on people's anxiety. It was only like when you used a combination of tools. It's like-... curling biceps didn't do it on its own. You had to do bicep curls, push-ups, and sit-ups.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- EKEthan Kross
Right? Except for journaling. Journaling was the one tool that alone moved the needle on people's anxiety. However, it was also the most infrequently used tool of all the tools we asked people about. How does that make sense?
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah, why?
- EKEthan Kross
It's effortful to sit down for 15 to 20 minutes and actually write. There's also a vulnerability to putting it out there, and so I think teaching people about that is really useful too 'cause that could be a powerful tool for folks.
- 39:37 – 47:42
The Role of Rituals in Quieting Mental Chatter
- EKEthan Kross
- MRMel Robbins
You know, one of the other tools that you talk about, uh, that's very effective at helping you get a handle on the inner critic and this negative chatter that we have is rituals. Can you explain that?
- EKEthan Kross
Yeah. Yeah, so, you know, rituals and popular culture get a bad rap because we often equate them with certain forms of anxiety. And there are those links that, that do exist where you have people who are suffering from anxiety conditions become really over-reliant-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- EKEthan Kross
... on a ritual to a point where it can be harmful. But a ritual in the right proportions can be quite helpful. I often call them ancient chatter fighting tools.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- EKEthan Kross
So if you think about it, are, are you religious in any way, or?
- MRMel Robbins
Very spiritual person.
- EKEthan Kross
Okay, very spiritual person. So I'm sure that there are certain spiritual rituals that-
- MRMel Robbins
Of course.
- EKEthan Kross
... that, you know, you've been exposed to. Grieving rituals, right? Religions around the world have been like... Well, let's just stop for a second. Let's pause for a second. Take the loss of someone. This is like a real chatter challenge for a lot of people.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- EKEthan Kross
Like, their worldview is shattered now. How are they gonna go on without this person that they love, that they care about? Religions have identified, "Hey, that might be a really hard time that people are dealing with. Let's give them a tool to manage that situation, it's a grieving ritual." So here's what we know about rituals. Rituals are relatively rigid sequences of behaviors that you perform them the same way each time, more or less. They don't necessarily... It's not clear why you do the things that comprise a ritual. Like, if you've ever watched an athlete before a game do a ritual-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- EKEthan Kross
... they do some funky things.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- EKEthan Kross
Like, you know, pull, tug on their earlobe a few times, pick a wedgie, put their hand through-
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- EKEthan Kross
... their hair. The key is you're doing the same thing in a sequenced order, in a rigid sequenced order the same way. Here's how this can help us. Chatter is often triggered when we don't feel like we have order and control.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- EKEthan Kross
Things are just not under our control. You've written extensively about this, right? A ritual's under your control. You can perform that ritual the same way each time and when you do, it leads to what we call, this is a mouthful, compensatory control. You're compensating for the lack of control you feel inside when your chatter's taking over by exerting control around you. This is also why people do this, I'm guessing, pretty common thing. I'm gonna guess you do this. Here's another little-
- MRMel Robbins
I don't know.
- EKEthan Kross
Yeah, I feel like I'm putting you on edge throughout our conversation.
- MRMel Robbins
Not at all.
- EKEthan Kross
Do you ever organize and clean when you're experiencing chatter?
- MRMel Robbins
Okay, so let's have a conversation about this.
- EKEthan Kross
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
'Cause not only did I see on page 170...... tools that involve your environment-
- EKEthan Kross
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... to really get your negative self-talk in control. But the first one is, create order in your environment. "When we experience chatter, we often feel as if we're losing control," you write. "Our thought spiral control... Our sp- our thought spirals control us rather than the other way around. When this happens, you can boost your sense of control by imposing order on your surroundings. Organizing your environment can take many forms, tidying up your work or home, making a list, arranging different objects." This is, I think, my number one way to combat negative self-talk, and I never knew that's what I was doing.
- 47:42 – 57:00
A Proven Framework to Stay Committed to Your Goals
- EKEthan Kross
even more sophisticated about... beforehand, thinking about, what are the two or three things that we wanna do when we find ourself in that state? And then, basically, ahead of time, coming up with a plan.
- MRMel Robbins
What do we do?
- EKEthan Kross
So, here's wh- we whoop it up.
- MRMel Robbins
You mean whoop it up.
- EKEthan Kross
Whoop it up. Just like, like... all right, another, another question here. What, what comes to mind when I say "whoop"?
- MRMel Robbins
Uh, like, I, I... like, isn't there that song-
- EKEthan Kross
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... "Whoop, there it is"?
- EKEthan Kross
You just redeemed yourself.
- MRMel Robbins
Did I? Okay.
- EKEthan Kross
Now, now we're back. We're at, like, 75%.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- EKEthan Kross
We're getting back. Yeah, "Whoop, There It Is," right?
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- EKEthan Kross
So, so, um, so, people have struggled endlessly. You go from listening to a podcast, reading a book.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- EKEthan Kross
You learn about information, and then, you know, the bleep hits the fan, and the question is... you don't do it. Right? It's the New Year's resolution dilemma.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- EKEthan Kross
"I'm gonna lose the weight. I'm gonna go to the gym every day." Three days later, you stop doing it. And so, scientists have spent a ton of time trying to figure out...... why are we so bad at following through with our intentions, and how do we make people better? And you can boil down the decades of research into a simple framework called WOOP. Here's what it stands for. The W, so that's step one, that's your wish. So what is your goal? So your goal might be to calm the chatter down, like reduce the noise when you find yourself slipping into that state. That's the goal I want to achieve. Right?
- MRMel Robbins
Okay. That's the wish.
- EKEthan Kross
That's the wish. Okay. The first O, that's the outcome. So what's gonna happen to you if you achieve that goal?
- MRMel Robbins
Uh, I'm gonna have less stress, I am going to cause less drama for myself and other people, um, I am going to feel more at peace and more in control because all of this negative chatter and overwhelm that becomes very paralyzing, uh, makes me feel out of control and incapable. So the outcome would be very positive.
- EKEthan Kross
So, so great job.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- EKEthan Kross
And the reason we focus-
- MRMel Robbins
I love the affirmations.
- EKEthan Kross
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
Just hang around all day.
- EKEthan Kross
Hey, I'm happy to give them. But it's true. And the reason why we do the, the outcome next, now we... Like, you've articulated your goal, we wanna energize you. Like, "This is a goal worth pursuing. This is worth my time." So now you're in this energized state for pursuing this goal. Now we get to the second O, which are the obstacles.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- 57:00 – 1:05:17
How Your Environment Shapes Your Self-Talk
- EKEthan Kross
different situations.
- MRMel Robbins
How important of a role does environment play in self-talk being positive or negative?
- EKEthan Kross
It, it can, it can play a big role, um, in a few different ways. So, um, so we already talked about your local environment, how the way you structure your environment, how organized it is, can affect what's happening between your ears. Um, there's also ways of, of, of putting things in your environment to trigger positive experiences like, uh, pictures of loved ones-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- EKEthan Kross
... which, you know, sounds so, so silly on the one hand, but we did this research years ago where we had people, um, think about really painful experiences and we had them then look at a picture of a loved one or a picture of someone else's loved one to see, what are the implications of looking at your, what we call attachment figure, someone you're really connected to.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- EKEthan Kross
And what we found is that looking at that person that you care about, this activates a sense that there are people in this world that support you, which sped up how quickly people recovered from, from a distressing experience. So after that research, I, like, went on a shopping spree for pho- um, picture frames-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- EKEthan Kross
... and, like, my in- my off- all of my offices have pictures of, of my family and friends all around it-
- MRMel Robbins
Well, I think-
- EKEthan Kross
... for that reason.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah, I think that, that, you know, if you think about walking through an office, oftentimes that's the thing that tes- tethers you through the day.
- EKEthan Kross
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Is the reminder of what's meaningful in your life-
- EKEthan Kross
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... especially when you're having a stressful day.
- EKEthan Kross
Exactly.
- MRMel Robbins
Sort of like the way that you time traveled backwards to your grandmother.
- EKEthan Kross
Helps, helps put things in perspective.
- MRMel Robbins
Correct.
- EKEthan Kross
So that's, that's one thing you can do.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- EKEthan Kross
Um, green space exposure. Uh, I was a little, um, hesitant to really buy into this when I first started, uh, researching this space. I come from a, a place we, we talked about before, Brooklyn, New York.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- EKEthan Kross
I, I like to remind people that one of the most famous books to come out of this borough or about this borough was titled A Tree Grows in Brooklyn.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- EKEthan Kross
Singular, right? So, like, there's not a lot of, um... There was not a lot of green space growing up-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- EKEthan Kross
... and, um, I'm a city guy. I find green space exposure to be, um, quite profound in terms of how it impacts my emotional life. And there's been a lot of research on this, and what happens is when you're stuck in chatter, it consumes your attention. It's the only thing you can think about.
- MRMel Robbins
So true.
- 1:05:17 – 1:11:55
Proven Tools to Stop Negative Self-Talk Fast
- MRMel Robbins
So, there are so many tools in the book, and we've covered a bunch of them so far, but what are some other quick and simple tactics and tools that the person listening can use to make their inner voice more positive?
- EKEthan Kross
Okay. So, let's enter into the rapid-fire part of the conversation. Uh, sensory experiences, tremendously underutilized tool. I was blind to this up until relatively recently in my life when my daughter was in a, um, a terrible mood, was bumming me out, and, um, one of the great songs of all time came on the radio in the car, or iPad, whatever you call it nowadays, Journey's Don't Stop Believin', and everyone got excited and happy in the car. Music effortlessly shifts our emotions. You can use this yourself. You can use it to shift other people's emotions. All of the senses are useful tools to shift our emotions. Scents. I'm staying at a hotel not far from here. The moment I walked into the hotel, I was, I was awash with this pleasant scent that the hotel has been piping through the ventilation system to make the patrons feel comfortable. We spritz ourselves with chemicals to make ourselves feel good and make other people feel good. Our senses are powerful tools. Um, let's talk about other people, though.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- EKEthan Kross
Because other people, I think, are really important.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- EKEthan Kross
And it touches back to this, this problem where sometimes we go to other people and we push them away. So how do you...How do you find other people in your life to actually help you when it comes to your chatter, or your, the big emotions you're experiencing? I call these our chatter advisors.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- EKEthan Kross
How do you find your chatter advisors? You want to look for people who do two things. There are two key steps to providing good chatter support. Step one, you want to listen, empathize, validate, connect with the person, right? Lots of big terms there, but what I mean is, like, you want to be there emotionally for that person. "I want to learn about what you're going through. Like, I really would like to know what set you off at 5:00 A.M. the other day. Tell me about it. That's terrible. Like, I've been there too." Genuinely connecting.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- EKEthan Kross
What that does is it- it- it helps satisfy the person who's suffering, these needs they have to feel connected. Once I do that, then I want to shift into this kind of advice or cognitive mode. So, all right, now we're connected. You can rely on me. But the problem's still there. Let's try to- let's try to look at it. And- and as someone who is not going through the problem myself, I'm in a great position to help put it in perspective for you.
- MRMel Robbins
Yep.
- EKEthan Kross
Those are the two steps to providing good chatter support, and you would be amazed at how frequently people who are exceptionally well-intentioned don't follow those t- two steps. There are two ways it breaks down. Number one, some people think that their job is just give you a sounding board to let it out. "Just keep going," right? There's value in that, in- in connecting and learning, but if that's all we do in a conversation, it can lead to what we call co-rumination.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- EKEthan Kross
Now we're just kinda bathing ourselves in the- in the problem together. And, as a function, that we often leave the conversation feeling connected, but the problem's still there. That doesn't work. The other thing that doesn't work, you come to me with a problem, and within five seconds, "Now, ugh, this is simple. You know, like, I wrote a paper on this. Here's what you need to do. Just do A, B, C, D, you'll be fine. Call me in the morning." We call those people jerks.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- EKEthan Kross
Right? Or- or-
- MRMel Robbins
Or Mel Robbins.
- EKEthan Kross
(laughs) I doubt, I doubt that.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- EKEthan Kross
And so- so you really want to follow both of those steps in that order. Listen and then advise. There's an art to doing that well. So I'll use my wife here as an example, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Is she gonna kill you?
- EKEthan Kross
She might kill me-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- EKEthan Kross
... but it's okay. We love each other. Um, so if my wife came to me with- with a problem that she was, um, experiencing some chatter about, I would immediately start listening, empathizing, connecting. And when I sensed that she had gotten it out, and I really understood the problem, I would ask her for permission. I'd be like, "Hey, I- I totally get it. I have a- I have a thought. You wanna- do you wanna keep going, or can I share it with you?" Sometimes, the way that she'll answer that question is, "No, I'm not done. Just let me keep going." And then I let her keep going, and then I come back to it.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- EKEthan Kross
At other moments, it'll be, "Yes, please. What do you think? Let's, you know, help me." And so, what I love about this framework that I essentially just described, that we just talked about, is it gives me guideposts for how to steer this conversation. When someone comes to me, so my wife, my friend, my students, whoever, there are these two steps that I follow, in the s- in the- in the same sequence each time.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- EKEthan Kross
Step one is I'm there to empathize and connect, listen and learn. Step two, now I'm gonna try to help work with the person to broaden their perspective. "So this has happened to you before. How'd you deal with it last time?" Or, you know, "Something like this happened to me and here's what I did." Simple ways for broadening perspective. Like couple of questions like that you ask, it often helps the person find the answer. I will often ask people to do a- a chatter advisor audit. So I'll have people, like, divide their world into personal and professional, and then I ask them to list who, all the names of the people they go to to talk about the chatter when it erupts. Then I'll explain to them how this art of chatter advising that we've just gone over, that the key to being a good advisor is to empathize, listen, and then shift into that advising.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- EKEthan Kross
And I'll have them circle the names of the people on their list who do both of those things. And I have them cross out the names of the people who- who don't. The people whose names you circle, that's your advisory board, and it's not always the people that you're closest to. Eh-
- 1:11:55 – 1:21:06
Help Someone You Love Who Struggles With Negative Self-Talk
- MRMel Robbins
Uh, Ethan, what does a person do if they're, you know, listening to you and they've got someone in their life who's really struggling because of the way they talk to themselves? I mean, just down on themselves, down emotionally. What is the best thing that you can do to help somebody that you care about when you see them really beaten down?
- EKEthan Kross
So, I like to divide the way of helping others into- into two buckets. One thing you can do, if they come to you for help-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- EKEthan Kross
... as often happens to us, people want to talk to us, people want our support, then you, um, you follow that- that guide that we just talked about. You listen and learn and then you advise. And part of the advice is giving them the tools. Like, the way we help others is- is teaching others about these tools. I do this with my kids all the time, right? Like, I'm constantly complaining that we're born into the world with the ex- the ability to experience chatter and big emotions. We're not born into the world with a user's guide that teaches us these tools. So, if my kids come to me...I listen, I, and then I offer them tools. But then there's another situation where you see people you care about, your colleagues, your loved ones, and they don't ask you for help. And then the question is, well, what do you do? Do you let them just figure it out on their own, suffer in silence? Do you volunteer the support without them asking? There's been research on this.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- EKEthan Kross
And, and it's tricky. The research shows that if you volunteer the support without the person asking, it has the potential to blow up in your face. As a parent, I'm sure you've experienced this, as I know I have. So sometimes if I've seen my kids, I know they're struggling with something, this is something I can help them with, and I volunteer the advice... Ar, ar, ar, ar, ar. You know? Is basically a mild version of how they respond. When you offer support and it's not asked for, what that does is it communicates to the person that they're not capable of handling their own circumstances, and that can elicit defensiveness. So, here's the really cool thing. We have learned how you can still help people when they don't ask for help, and what it involves doing is providing support invisibly.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay. A- is this another one of these secret weapons?
- EKEthan Kross
This is a secret weapon that everyone, that you are list- if you're listening, you now have a secret weapon that...
- MRMel Robbins
Lay it on us, Ethan.
- EKEthan Kross
Okay. So-
- MRMel Robbins
How do we do invisible support?
- EKEthan Kross
Invisible support is providing people with support but without shining a spotlight on the fact that you're doing it. You kind of asked me about this earlier when you asked me about how do you tactfully help another person when they're struggling. This is how you do it.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- EKEthan Kross
And there are many forms this can take. I'll give you a couple of examples. Let's say someone on my team or, or, you know, my lab is, is, uh, working under a really tense deadline, and I, I, they don't have time to take care of themselves and do simple things. I, I can just order in food for them.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- EKEthan Kross
If my wife is struggling with, like, lots of stress at work, lots of chatter, it's her turn to get the groceries, like, I just do the groceries, pick up the dry cleaning. I don't do it, come home, and ask for a pat on my back. I just do things to make the other person's life just a little bit easier, a little bit more manageable. That's one way of supporting someone invisibly. Let's say someone else is struggling with a skill. Um, let's say it's public speaking. So someone on my team is struggling with communicating their science in a way that people can understand-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- EKEthan Kross
... with impact. Before I take them aside and say, "Hey, I've noticed that you could do a little bit better here, here are three things I, I want you to try," I'll first have a team meeting, and we'll all share out best practice. What are the two or three things that we've all benefited from for speaking more effectively? What I'm doing there is I am getting the person information they can benefit from, but I'm not shining a spotlight on the fact that I'm targeting it to them. So even sharing sources that you've benefited from, podcast episodes, books, share that with someone else. You don't have to target it to them and say, "Hey, this is gonna help you." But if you found the material meaningful, just share it in that context, and what it does is it, it gives them the opportunity to benefit as well, but without you think- without them thinking, "This was specifically targeted to them."
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, you could always do it in a group chat.
- EKEthan Kross
Group chat.
- MRMel Robbins
That's my favorite thing to do is just hit the family group chat, hit the friend chat-
- EKEthan Kross
This-
- MRMel Robbins
"Hey, everybody."
- EKEthan Kross
Thi-
- MRMel Robbins
"Great episode."
- EKEthan Kross
Great e- "This episode was awesome. I learned so much," or, "This book was great." Yeah, those are simple things you can do, and I do that all the time. Let me close the loop on invisible support 'cause-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- EKEthan Kross
... I told you about two ways you can do it. There's a third, and it's my favorite.
- MRMel Robbins
What is that?
- EKEthan Kross
It's affectionate but not creepy touch.
Episode duration: 1:21:06
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