How To Stop Waking Up Feeling Tired: 7 Tips From a Harvard Researcher

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 0:00 Only one in three Americans make healthy, sufficient sleep a priority on a night-to-night basis. Anywhere between 20 and 50% of Americans struggle with one of two difficulties, and that's either struggling to fall asleep or maintain sleep.

Mel Robbins 0:15 How do you create consistent sleep-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 0:18 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 0:18 ... if something is interrupting your ability to do it?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 0:20 Here's the dirty secret. Even if you can't get enough sleep, if you can get consistent sleep, you're going to do much better than someone that's getting enough sleep but keeping different schedules.

Mel Robbins 0:29 Wait, what?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 0:30 Yes. Consistency is king.

Mel Robbins 0:31 Wow. What is the average amount of time that it takes to fall asleep?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 0:36 We think that we just should be able to crawl into bed and flip our brains off like a switch. Wrong. Many of us have bright, blue light emitting devices all around us. Not only our light bulbs, but also the devices that we carry around with us. If you find that you're a little bit addicted to your phone, it's hard to put it down, commit to doing, putting your phone down five minutes before you want to be falling asleep, and ideally on airplane mode, to say, "I'm off for the night. This is my time at night for me."

Mel Robbins 1:01 What is one of your favorite tips in order to get better sleep?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:05 One of my favorite tips for a great night's sleep is... (clock ticking)

Mel Robbins 1:11 Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. First of all, it's just an honor to be able to spend some time with you today right now, and I want to acknowledge you for choosing to listen to something that could help you create a better life. I just think that's super cool that you're putting yourself first. And I have a question for you. When was the last time you had a great night's sleep? You know, the kind where you wake up and you jump out of bed and you feel so energized and refreshed and focused? Wouldn't it be great if you woke up tomorrow and you're like, "Oh, I feel so great"? Well, I'm on a mission to help you feel that exact way, because a renowned sleep scientist from Harvard is here in our Boston studios to prove to you that sleep is your superpower. And she has seven simple, free, and science-backed tips that will help you and the people that you love get better sleep and wake up feeling refreshed, energized, focused, and in control. Doesn't that sound great? I thought so. So let's do this. Please help me welcome Dr. Rebecca Robbins to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 2:27 Thank you for having me.

Mel Robbins 2:29 Well, I would love to start by having you speak directly to the person listening. If they take everything that you're about to share and teach us to heart, what could you expect to change about your life if you follow the advice you're about to give us about sleep?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 2:47 Today we're going to cover some of my favorite tips and strategies that are evidence-based and start tonight to get a better night's sleep. And if you can make a couple small changes and get a little bit more, a little bit better quality sleep, I'm biased, I'm a sleep scientist, but you will be amazed. Some of the findings include better productivity, our relationships improve, our mental health improves, and then into the long term, our research is uncovering that our, our sleep every night plays an important role in the quality of our life as we age, and also our risk for neurocognitive decline. So, so many things can fall in line when we put sleep, um, really high up on our priority list.

Mel Robbins 3:27 Wow. You're here to tell us that there are small things that you can do to help you be a better sleeper. And before we jump in and we just start to unpack all the cool things that we can do that are in our control-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 3:39 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 3:39 ... I wonder if we could just zoom out a little bit, because when you're feeling tired and-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 3:45 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 3:45 ... overwhelmed and just kind of beaten down by your life, can you just explain as a sleep researcher how working on sleep is going to impact every area of your life?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 3:59 You hear a lot now about brain fog, about fatigue, about low energy levels, and people seeking answers online. So it's almost like we're focusing on the symptoms instead-

Mel Robbins 4:11 Hmm.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 4:11 ... of the cause. And one of the driving forces of some of those symptoms that many people are experiencing is insufficient or poor quality sleep. Many of us are struggling, two

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 4:20 out of three Americans are not getting the sleep that they biologically need in a consistent manner. Um, but in addition, we have a problem of poor quality sleep. Anywhere between 20 and 50% of Americans struggle with one of two difficulties, and that's either struggling to fall asleep or maintain sleep. So waking up at 2:00, 3:00 in the morning and struggling to fall back asleep. And so those struggles contribute to poor quality sleep. And our research in our lab has shown that fewer than 3 in 10 Americans report waking up and reporting that their sleep is restorative. And that's what it's all about, because if we're spending time in bed and it's not restorative sleep that we're getting, what's the point? Um, but some of the behavioral tips and strategies that we'll get into are really how you unlock that restorative sleep that we're all after.

Mel Robbins 5:05 Why do so many people wake up feeling so tired?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 5:09 I think the, um, it kind of comes back to the conversations, I've seen them on, on social media, um, interpersonally, just it's almost part of the, our day-to-day narrative as a society, "How are you?" "Tired." You know, I hope one day we could flip that. Uh, but unfortunately when we do say, "You know, I'm feeling great. I'm feeling well rested," that's not often looked as very positively in our society. So I, I hope that one day that changes. Um, I think we're moving away from the notion of, you know, "I'll sleep when I'm dead." We're finally, finally kind of, I think, collectively waking up to the importance of sleep as a population. We still have so far to go, um, but there used to be this idea of, "I'll sleep when I'm dead. I'll rob from, I'll take hours from my, my sleep and magically add it back to my day." But that comes at a price, and we can probably all attest to this, but if you wake up and haven't gotten enough sleep, your body is operating well below its potential, not only from our physical health, uh, our emotional health, our cognitive health. So many decrements when we're not getting enough sleep. Um, but I think that when we can put sleep at the...... really high on our pr- priority list, maybe even at the core of everything that we do. And I'm not talking about, you know, crazy, sweeping changes. The- what's so exciting about sleep is a lot of these are really small things. It's just cutting screens out a little bit earlier in your evening, maybe having dinner a little bit earlier, doing a couple of the relaxation exercises that we're gonna be talking about can offer a number of benefits in terms of our ability to fall asleep and get into the deeper sleep that supports our waking success.

Mel Robbins 6:38 Wow. That's so interesting. Dr. Robbins, why do all of these tips and evidence-backed interventions matter so much?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 6:46 What's so powerful about sleep, it's just this great equalizer. Um, but what's also so inter- interesting is we never receive formal training about sleep, really not in school. Even medical doctors receive only about 20, 25 minutes in the average medical curricula about sleep, which is a huge problem when you think about it because so many of us are struggling. We talked about some of the numbers. And so it creates this culture of, you know, "Well, if I'm- you know, my primary care provider doesn't, uh, fully understand sleep, what might happen is a lot of, you know, pharmacological interventions..." And there is a time and a place for that. Um, but what's so interesting about sleep is even in clinical trials that pit meds, pharmacological intervention against behavior, what we find is that the behavioral change, when we can successfully implement some of these strategies that we've talked today, that actually wins out in terms of insomnia symptoms with people who are really struggling than the- the medications over time,

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 7:44 which is so amazing.

Mel Robbins 7:45 I wanna make sure the person listening just heard that.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 7:47 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 7:47 So in clinical studies, when you put medication up against the behavioral changes that we're talking about today-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 7:55 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 7:55 ... that the behavioral changes over time beat insomnia and the insomnia drugs over and over and over again.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 8:00 Isn't that so powerful?

Mel Robbins 8:01 It's really powerful because it tells us that small changes add up over time and that, yes, you are designed to and you can learn to sleep and get the rest that you deserve and wake up energized, and it begins with these small, small changes.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 8:16 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 8:17 Wow. How does sleep impact the memory and the brain, Dr. Robbins?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 8:22 Sleep and the brain are really fascinating areas.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 8:25 And it turns out that during sleep, we not only kind of rinse and repeat and rehearse some of the memories that we took in from the day, but we also start to kind of put them into storage and figure out importantly where they should go in the brain, which, when you think about it, is a fascinating exercise and so re- so important. As we learn things, we're exposed to new things in the world around us, our brain does this amazing process at night, during sleep, of, you know, "Where should I file this away? And importantly, what memories should I hold on to, and which can I let go?" Because we're exposed to so much information. We learn so much now more than ever with our phones in our pockets. The information that we're exposed to is enormous, and our brains are amazing, but they couldn't- it couldn't possibly store all of that information. And so there's this fascinating process called pruning that takes place during sleep where we try to figure out our brain, what memories can it let go of and which should it keep and where should those memories be stored? And we really are starting to uncover and believe that dreaming is one of the ways that this happens. So during s- during dreaming, it's almost like the brain is throwing spaghetti against a wall to see, you know, "Okay, the events from today, where do they fit in our existing networks of the brain?" So when we put sleep at the center, so many positive outcomes come in terms of our learning, our memory, and for students, academic excellence.

Mel Robbins 9:47 So if I can, like, extract what you just said and try to give it back to you to make sure that I'm tracking, I always think of this example of, like, a giant library. So during the day, the books are out, and they've been given to people to read.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 10:00 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 10:00 When you lay down in bed and you fall asleep, that's when the books come back to the library, and they get put on the proper shelf, and that's your brain learning how to file memories, this pruning process. Is that what you called it?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 10:13 Yes, I love that analogy.

Mel Robbins 10:14 Okay.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 10:14 And maybe figuring out, "Ooh, that book wasn't very well re- you know, widely read so maybe we'll send it to a sister library."

Mel Robbins 10:21 Got it. Got-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 10:22 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 10:22 So you also prioritize what's important.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 10:24 Which is so fascinating.

Mel Robbins 10:25 And then the other thing that you said that I think is really, really important to understand... Oh my God, I just had literally, like, a menopause brain fog thing. I must not have gotten a great night sleep last night-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 10:35 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 10:35 ... 'cause I had such a good thing that was- What were you just talking about?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 10:38 Learning, memory.

Mel Robbins 10:40 Oh, that was it. That was it.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 10:40 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 10:40 Okay, see, everybody? You're not the only one with brain fog.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 10:43 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 10:43 We're all here to learn how to sleep better.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 10:45 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 10:45 But this is super important, that you're basically saying that a critical part of learning and locking in a new skill or a habit happens during sleep.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 10:56 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 10:57 And so if you're having trouble making new habits stick, or if you're studying for the series seven, or you're studying for a standardized test or some exam coming up, or you've got a huge presentation that you have coming up for work, sleep and putting sleep at the center of how you're taking care of yourself helps you lock in the learning, helps you perform better. That's what you're saying based on the research?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 11:21 Exactly, but when you walk into any college campus, any corporate environment, w- you almost hear the opposite, people saying, "Oh, I'm gonna stay up late to crank through this report. I'm gonna pull an all-nighter to study more, to give myself more time. Let me, you know, take more hours in my day away from my sleep and add it back to my productivity." It really throws that notion on its head, right? That-

Mel Robbins 11:41 Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 11:41 ... because all the research shows that when we prioritize sleep, our learning improves, our productivity improves, so the next day, you wake up, and you're able to accomplish what you would have otherwise done in a fraction of the time.

Mel Robbins 11:52 Terrific. That's super clear. So we are gonna jump into these seven strategies that you have that will help you become a better sleeper. What is one of your favorite tips in order to get better sleep?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 12:03 One

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 12:04 of my favorite tips for a great night's sleep is this idea that routine is absolutely queen. (laughs) And we're really not meant to keep different sleep schedules as human beings. Um, falling asleep at 2:00 AM one night, 10:00 PM the next, understand how vitally important consistency is in our sleep routines, 'cause then our brain and our body starts to understand when it should be tired and, you know, prepare for sleep and when it should be awake. And then it allows ourselves to better organize ourselves and get a lot out of our sleep episode. The best sleep comes when we're getting cons- keeping our- our sleep times consistent, so falling asleep at the same time and waking up as close to the same time as possible.

Mel Robbins 12:46 So is that takeaway number one?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 12:48 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 12:48 That climbing into bed so you have a consistent time that you're signaling that you're gonna start the process of falling asleep, and having your alarm ring at roughly the same time is one of the first things that we wanna do?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 13:00 Absolutely. And I think we're slaves to our alarm clocks. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 13:04 Yes.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 13:04 But we don't really talk about the wind-down time. It's kind of like a fuzzy idea, fuzzy game plan. It's not a, "Okay, 10:30 is when I'm going to start to power down. I'm going to get off my phone. I'm gonna boil a cup of- a small cup of tea, herbal tea, and then start my bedtime ritual and wind-down routine," which is an essential part of sleep. We always think, you know, "Oh, you know, I... Now- now's the time. Now's- now's the..." (laughs) Now feels pretty good for sleep. But it really, it takes time.

Mel Robbins 13:33 So you are a world-renowned

Mel Robbins 13:35 sleep researcher and scientist. What is your wind-down routine?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 13:39 My wind-down routine is one thing that I am very diligent about. And it's not complex, but I'm very diligent about the time. I do my best. You know, I try to get all my computer stuff done, and then I put my boys to bed, and then it's 8:30, and then I am switching my mindset, and it's time for Mama to go to bed. And- And there are days where I need to be working and plug back in. But the best-case scenario is my boys are down, and then I do a couple... Maybe I clean up a tiny bit around the house, I start to turn the lights off, and then I go upstairs, and I turn my phone off. I wash my face. I take a shower, and then I do one breathing exercise. I sit cross-legged on the ground in my bedroom. I'm turning lights off as I kind of move into the bedroom, and I do one breathing exercise, and I don't set an alarm, but I just kind of do it until I feel like I've gotten rid of that busy mind, you know, that has served me so well over the course of the day. And sometimes that's five times on busier, more stressful days. Sometimes that's seven rounds of this. But it's the, um, the military breathing technique. So I breathe in through my nose for a count of four. (inhales) I hold for seven. And then I exhale, purse my lips for eight. And those times are longer than you think, right? The seven and the eight really, like, you're kind of fighting for the breath at the end. And that's the benefit of that technique. It restricts and restrains the breath and can help calm the heart rate and calm your mind. And now while I'm doing that, thoughts are flying in, because, of course, of what I forgot to do or I need to do. And I come back to this idea of, "No, not now. Now is my time. I've done things for my students, my partner, my kids all day, and now is my time to restore and relax." And if anything, any thoughts are still fighting to the surface, I write those down at my nightstand. So I've done the 4-7-8 technique, and then I mosey into my- my bed. I read a couple pages in a book. I do, uh, progressive muscle relaxation. I clench and release every muscle group starting in the- from the toes, and I inhale, clench, (inhales) and then exhale, release. (exhales) And then I really kind of add onto that something, like something that I'm letting go, heaviness or a thought that's not serving me. (inhales) And then I say a prayer, and I go to sleep. And it doesn't happen every night, but that's my ritual, and I use the word ritual purposefully, because you wanna cultivate a ritual. A ritual is something you do every time, and so it's thoughtful. It's, you know, one, two, three, boom, sleep is next. Um, for you listening, what are the three things that you can do tonight and tomorrow night and really institute as your ritual that you can ideally also take on the road when you travel? And be diligent. Try to do those every single night, because then what the brain starts to understand is what comes next is sleep.

Mel Robbins 16:38 Hmm. Do you find that, in your research, that the people that are struggling the most with sleep don't have this wind-down routine? They're not diligent about this ritual and the consistency of it and practicing these steps that help you fall asleep and stay asleep?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 16:59 It's a great question. I think it comes back to this idea that we're so used to getting, you know, what we wanted quick, (laughs) you know, quickly. You know, whether it's our food, or a coffee, or, you know, getting a- a Subway or an Uber. We're used to things happening quickly when we want them to, and our brain is hardwired to crave consistency, to have, you know, to be able to expect what's to come, what's coming next-

Mel Robbins 17:28 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 17:29 ... by keeping our schedules consistent, by giving our brain that sense of normalcy, and then sleep, you know, falling asleep faster and to deeper sleep is more within our reach.

Mel Robbins 17:40 Quick question. What is the average amount of time that it takes to fall asleep?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 17:45 Mm.

Mel Robbins 17:45 And how... When should we get out of bed because it's not happening?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 17:50 This is a great question and I think a big area to im- you know, promote awareness about, because we think that we just should be able to crawl into bed and flip our brains off like a switch. Wrong. Sleep is a process, and so falling asleep actually takes time, and more than a lot of people realize. Even a healthy sleeper with no problems should take about 15 or 20 minutes to fall asleep.And that's countered, so many people will say, "Oh, you know, I, I can fall asleep anywhere. As soon as I get into the airplane at Logan, I'm out. You know, I'm snoring before the-"

Mel Robbins 18:20 My husband is like that.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 18:20 "... even the announcement."

Mel Robbins 18:21 I literally... We, he hits the pillow, and he's like (imitates snoring) . And I'm like, "Oh."

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 18:24 So humiliating.

Mel Robbins 18:25 "Ugh."

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 18:25 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 18:25 "Now I've gotta like, you know, try to fall asleep while you're already snoring." And so-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 18:30 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 18:30 ... he just like drops in-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 18:31 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 18:31 ... like it's his job. And I-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 18:32 He might be a little sleep-deprived. I'd love to talk to him and make sure he's getting enough sleep. But if you're able to fall asleep right away, it's generally a sign that you're not getting enough sleep.

Mel Robbins 18:40 Really?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 18:41 Same thing if you're starved for food and you sit down and you, you know, have a huge meal and keep eating and eating, it's probably because you're starved for sleep, because it's not, you know, of course, healthy to have enormous meals. Um, and so s- same thing with sleep. If you are starved for sleep, your brain is going to, you know, hopefully you're not in a place like driving a car, um, or anything that would be safety critical. But if you're not getting enough sleep, sleep will come, because it's a biological necessity. And so when we go without it, our body works desperately to get it.

Mel Robbins 19:11 So 15 to 20 minutes?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 19:13 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 19:13 And that's both for when you climb in at your bedtime, when the bedtime wind-down routine happens, and that's also how long it might take you to drift back to sleep if you do wake up in the middle of the night?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 19:25 These are such good questions. We just wrote a, a paper on how to help our researchers kind of conceptualize these different steps, because there, there are a couple, right? So-

Mel Robbins 19:32 Right.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 19:32 ... um, the time that you wanna be winding down at night, maybe you're walking around your house, your lights are low. You're lighting candles, ideally, uh, you know-

Mel Robbins 19:39 Oh my God. I, that's not going on in my house.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 19:41 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 19:41 I'm like, "Who didn't turn off the lights? Where are the dogs?"

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 19:44 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 19:44 "Did you lock the doors?" Like, it's like-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 19:46 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 19:47 ... shutdown is happening. I need to, like, play some music and light some candles. Like, it is like, "Get to bed, people."

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 19:54 (laughs) I love it. And I mean, you're not alone. So many of us, right? Especially with kids and, you know, other moving parts. Um, but you know, f- finding ways to draw a little inspiration from these things, right? Look, I'm not saying let's all, you know, spend two hours in a candlelit environment before bedtime.

Mel Robbins 20:08 Yeah, but I think this is really... What you're doing is you're taking a spotlight and you're highlighting something-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 20:17 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 20:17 ... that is within your reach to do. And when you understand that it is coming from a world-renowned sleep scientist at Harvard, that thinking about the way you turn yourself down. So I, I think about, I turn down the house. We turn off all the lights.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 20:35 I love that.

Mel Robbins 20:36 You lock the doors. The dogs run into their crates and get a little treat. You say good night to the kids. You make sure the cat's outside.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 20:44 Hold on.

Mel Robbins 20:44 You know?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 20:44 This all sounds wonderful, Mel. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 20:46 Well, I mean, candles. You know what I'm saying? But I, but

Mel Robbins 20:49 there is this signaling that happens.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 20:51 Exactly. And look, that's actually part of your wind-down routine. And maybe as you do those things, you're consciously looking at it as that. You're maybe slowing down your breath, you know, when the dogs are out, you know, you're consciously not on your phone. You're starting to switch into a different mindset, a one that's all about rest and recovery. And it's different than the daytime, right? The day is, you know, do, act, execute, you know, thinking. And maybe at nighttime, you draw inspiration from some of the kind of meditation, um, world of, you know, thoughts come into the mind and then come back to the breath, say tomorrow. And if those are festering, those thoughts are festering, a great addition to your bedtime routine is writing down anything that's on your mind. So powerful, because sometimes it's the stupidest little things that keep us awake. Oh, the dry cleaning. Gotta call mom. You know, take the, take the dogs to the vet. And there are things that you can only do sometimes during, you know, work hours.

Mel Robbins 21:47 Right.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 21:47 And so writing them down can then, you know, I suggest a stack of note cards because then that can also be your to-do list. Those things that were bothering you that you need to do, throw now on a piece of paper, and you can cross those off when you wake up.

Mel Robbins 21:58 Oh, that's great. So you have a stack of like little five by seven note cards. And as you've got all those things that you'd normally ruminate about-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 22:06 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 22:06 ... as you're laying in bed and you can't fall asleep, dump them in their little home-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 22:10 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 22:10 ... and then you don't have to hold space in your brain.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 22:13 Exactly.

Mel Robbins 22:13 So you-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 22:13 And it's so powerful. And then you start to condition your brain to think, "Not now. Now's, now's my time for sleep."

Mel Robbins 22:21 One of the other levers that you say helps us sleep better is a consistent schedule. What if you've got young kids or you got a puppy that's waking you up or your work is inconsistent, like, how do you create consistent sleep if-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 22:36 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 22:37 ... something is interrupting your ability to do it?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 22:39 This is such a great question, and there are so many of these, right? Young kids, you know, dogs, work. Um, I would encourage you to look at your weekly schedule and find the time that you can protect for sleep. And that's gonna be the time that your biological clock gets used to. And if you can get a little bit more time in, in the morning, an extra hour, go to bed a little bit earlier, an extra hour, wonderful. But if you can protect, say, it's 12 to 6, if you can protect, you know, 11 to 5, be diligent about that. And then think about either end of that being kind of things that you could move, but have maybe a time... You know, if you're a young mother listening, for instance, and you're like, "Look, I'm working. I have kids. How do I follow this? Nine hours?" Here's the thing. That is the, the goal. If you can get there, wonderful. But if you can't, give me seven. Take that first time that you have to be up. You've hit your target wake-up time. That should be your a- your alarm

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 23:34 for every, ideally every day of the week. But again, life happens. We'll talk about how to catch up in a moment, but that's your target wake-up time. And then count back maybe again. If it's only six that you can give me, count back six. And even if you can't get enough sleep, if you can get consistent sleep, here's the dirty secret. You're gonna do much better than someone that's getting enough sleep but keeping different schedules.

Mel Robbins 23:56 Wait, what? So hold on a second. If I can get less sleep, but consistently, so I'm consistently getting five or six hours of sleep, I am going to do better than somebody who's getting eight or nine hours of sleep but an inconsistent schedule?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 24:11 And we are talking about situations where the person is really fundamentally not able to get enough sleep. It's not what I recommend. But if you're a shift worker, if you're a single mom with kids working two jobs and you can't get-... eight hours of consistent sleep. If you can get five consistently or six consistently, I really wanna move you towards six or seven for your health, your well-being, your ability to be around for those kids, you know, if it's, um, caregiving that, that's one of your challenges. Um, and really putting and being diligent. You know, how many hours can I give myself? Because the closer to seven, the closer to eight, the longer you're gonna be around, the better the quality of your heart, your brain, your, your productivity, your relationships. So many positive things when we can put sleep first. But if you're looking at, you know, at a schedule, that is tough. Then yes, um, consistency is king.

Mel Robbins 25:02 Why is consistency more important than the amount of time you're sleeping?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 25:05 It comes back to our circadian rhythm. Our body and our brain e- we're not built as humans to keep different schedules.

Mel Robbins 25:11 Hmm.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 25:12 It didn't serve us from the standpoint of evolution. It served our ancestors from the standpoint of evolution to know when it would be alert so then it could say, "Okay, these animals are up at this time and I can fo- hunt for these animals and forage for these, you know, berries at this time and then I prepare my meal in the heat of the day." You know, these, y- you, it's kind of, you know, so silly to compare, you know, but kind of helps you understand just how important it is and how we're really built and takes a lot of time to, to change our physiology as a species and our technology has really outpaced our, you know, kind of biological rhythms which are all about consistency and keeping our sleep times the same, powering down. You know, these are things that we don't have hacks for.

Mel Robbins 25:58 Well, and what I love is there are-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 25:59 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 25:59 ... things that you can do and basically-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 26:02 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 26:02 ... it makes sense because if you are a young mom or a shift worker or something's going on-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 26:07 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 26:07 ... with your parents and so you're in the middle of a period of your life where things are really inconsistent, that creates its own level of stress.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 26:13 Totally. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 26:14 And so being worried about how much sleep you're gonna get or this, that, and the other thing, if you can focus on the five or six hours that you can pretty much guarantee, that lowers a little bit of stress because now you're focused on what you can control. So it makes a lot of sense.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 26:27 Totally. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 26:28 Totally.

Mel Robbins 26:28 Um, what if your partner has a different schedule or snores like crazy or, like, is just a human furnace in keeping you awake, do you recommend that you sleep in a different room?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 26:43 This is such a good question, and if you have a partner, sleep is a social behavior. It's kind of funny to think of it that way, but it really is.

Mel Robbins 26:49 What do you mean by that?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 26:50 Um, you co-sleep largely if you're in a relationship. Um, so it's a social, it's a social phenomenon.

Mel Robbins 26:56 It's true.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 26:57 And so if your partner snores, it's gonna probably interrupt the quality of your sleep. And so I would encourage you to think about, you know, again, kind of putting sleep at the center. Granted, I am biased. This is what I do for a living. But when we can do that and really say critically how can we optimize for sleep, that will improve your relationship, improve your productivity at work, how you care for your children, so many positive things. And then you have to ask yourself, "Am I creating lasting memories by, you know, sleeping together with my partner?" Um, this term is actually, um, this is termed a sleep divorce, um, what I'm about to talk about, sleeping separately.

Mel Robbins 27:34 That's a terrible name.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 27:34 Which is so negative, totally.

Mel Robbins 27:36 Can we come up with a better name?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 27:37 I couldn't agree more. I, I have some friends who are like, "Look, it's a sleep marriage." It literally is how I'm (laughs) I'm able to stay in this marriage. And that could be for a number of reasons.

Mel Robbins 27:45 You should just have a sex bed and then a sleep bed.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 27:47 (laughs) Like we need to, we need to make this sexier- Like even the Victorian era. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 27:49 ... in terms of the name of it.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 27:51 That's what people did in the Victorian era, right? And, you know, even earlier than that, and, uh, very wealthy individuals would always do that.

Mel Robbins 27:57 Well, I thought it was because they had mistresses, but I thought-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 27:59 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 27:59 ... that's why they were not sleeping together. But, um-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 28:02 That might have been a factor.

Mel Robbins 28:02 So you recommend that, like, just-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 28:04 Um, so, and ask yourself as a couple, like, "How can we be the best possible couple, you know, that we can be? How can we be the best parents? You know, succeed in our careers, love each other?" And you can do that with good sleep. And if your sleep is interrupting each other's, uh, maybe one's snoring, maybe one keeps a different schedule, one's a shift worker, if you're able to sleep separately, why not? And again, doing away with this term sleep, sleep divorce. I think we should coin sleep marriage instead, um, because, again, you're just not creating lasting memories when you're sleeping. You know, sometimes it's nice to cuddle, but you could do that and then sleep into your separate bedroom where you're gonna get the sleep that will support your personal waking success and, again, allow you to thrive in that relationship. Now, there are some people for whom that will be challenging. Maybe you don't have a guest room that you could, you know, oust your husband or your partner to go to. So if that's the situation for you, think about the ways that you could buffer against that disruption that your partner imposes on your sleep.

Mel Robbins 29:01 Like a pillow wall and earplugs?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 29:02 A pillow wall, earplugs, and, um, earplugs that block, again, 60 decibels or higher. So it's just a specific type of earplug and they have them at the drugstore, you know, every, every drugstore. Um, white noise. They're, um, you know, widely available. Look into one of these. It creates kind of a background level of noise that then can dampen the impact of intermittent noise which is often the challenge, right? It's someone getting up to an alarm clock or someone snoring.

Mel Robbins 29:27 I'm gonna try that. That's so simple and hearing it from you makes me know that it's actually gonna work. What is

Mel Robbins 29:36 (laughs) a circadian rhythm, Dr. Robbins?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 29:38 Circadian rhythm refers to systems in the brain and in the body that operate and oscillate in an approximate 24-hour cycle.

Mel Robbins 29:45 Oh.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 29:45 And that's because we on Earth have a pattern of light and darkness that is 24 hours in duration. And so over hundreds of thousands of years, we've adapted our internal biological mechanisms to that 24-hour day. Sleep is one such rhythm. So there are s- times during the day where we're awake and then times where we're asleep. Now, the reason this is beneficial is largely evolutionary in nature. So when it's dark out, we can rest and recover, and when it's light out, we can be, you know, operating at our peak, you know, working, commuting, et cetera.And so, our, our physiology has adapted to life on Earth, and our internal systems are governed by this tiny little region of the brain called the suprachiasmatic nucleus. We call it the, kind of, central pacemaker of the circadian rhythm.

Mel Robbins 30:31 That almost made me-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 30:32 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 30:32 ... wanna go supercalifragilistic-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 30:34 Yes. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 30:34 ... right, you know-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 30:34 That's (laughs) very supercalifragilistic-

Mel Robbins 30:35 ... supercalivlistic nucleus?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 30:37 Yes. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 30:37 Okay. So-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 30:37 If you ever wanna impress someone at a cocktail party, that science-y term is the way to do it. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 30:41 How do we say it again?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 30:42 Suprachiasmatic nucleus.

Mel Robbins 30:44 (laughs)

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 30:44 Like, say that 10 times fast, right?

Mel Robbins 30:45 Suprachiasmatic nucleus.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 30:46 (laughs) Yes, bravo.

Mel Robbins 30:47 Yes.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 30:48 (laughs) Nailed it. So that's the central pacemaker of this, this biological clock that we have inside us, and what's so interesting is virtually every part of the body operates in a circadian-like fashion, firing at some times and then relaxing and unwinding at other times, even down to the cellular level, believe it or not. So this system, this internal circuitry, is not meant to make quick changes. Hundreds of years ago, we weren't flying on airplanes all around the world, um, so understanding that that internal system really it's like I kind of like to liken it to a big piece of machinery from World War I that just moves sl- like, slowly, and really, the- when light changes in our environment, it's maybe a couple seconds a day, not much more, but we fly on airplanes, you know, we hop in airplanes and fly to new time zones and wonder why we just struggle with brain fog, with sleep. And it's because there's a mismatch between our internal biological rhythms and the new pattern of light and darkness and social time, so the clock on the wall when you land in London is, of course, gonna be different than your internal biological clock. So understanding these principles can better set us up for success when it comes to our sleep.

Mel Robbins 31:59 So I have a couple questions. This is fascinating, first of all, so thank you for breaking this down. One of the things

Mel Robbins 32:05 that you also recommend is getting light in the morning. Why does this matter when it comes to your circadian rhythm and being a better sleeper?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 32:14 So that tiny brain region that we talked about, where the circadian rhythm is housed, is located right behind the eyeball in the brain. So the brain takes in information about the presence or absence of light through the eye, and then that travels along the optic chiasm to the su- (laughs) suprachiasmatic nucleus-

Mel Robbins 32:33 There's really good names here.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 32:33 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 32:33 Optic chiasm, super-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 32:35 Yes, we're gonna sound very-

Mel Robbins 32:36 ... kinda whatever it is.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 32:37 ... very serious. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 32:37 Very sexy field of study, Dr. Robbins.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 32:41 (laughs) So, um, so light comes in through the eyes and triggers the suprachiasmatic nucleus, or the kind of, uh, cognitive home for our circadian rhythm, and then that triggering allows for the secretion of melatonin when we're in the absence of light. So we've all heard that term, and it's all over the shelves of every grocery store offering you the promise of good night's sleep, but it also is a hormone that's secreted in the brain in this home of our circadian rhythm, the suprachiasmatic nucleus. And that hormone is secreted when we go out into a dark environment, and we see the sunset, and then mel- the process of melatonin secretion begins, and that allows us to then sleep. Then conversely, when we wake up, that internal circuitry gets a signal through the eyes that travels to that brain region that says, "Oh, all right, melatonin, you're done. It's time to become a- alert and awake," and going outside to get some natural sunlight in the morning is really vitally important because that stops the floodgates of melatonin and triggers the brain to say, "Ah, all right, we're in the awake phase of our circadian rhythm."

Mel Robbins 33:43 So what happens if you step outside and it's a cloudy or rainy day?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 33:48 No problem.

Mel Robbins 33:48 Does it still work?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 33:49 No problem. It's a myth that-

Mel Robbins 33:50 Why does it work?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 33:51 'Cause it's amazing the power of sunlight in our environment, and so even if it's a cloudy day, getting outside will get you the sunlight exposure that you need into your eyes to stop the floodgates of melatonin and begin your day. It's a myth that even on a- that a cloudy day might hamper that or dampen that ability.

Mel Robbins 34:10 And how long do I need to be outside? So I've rolled out of bed, I've opened up the curtains, being inside and looking out the window's not enough, I gotta step outside, I gotta get the UVs in my eyeballs, but how long am I standing out there, Dr. Robbins?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 34:23 (laughs) Great question. Now, I, I think it's so important, this is s- so aligned with your work, but meeting people where they are. I'm not saying, you know, we all need to be out, you know, walking for an hour before we get to work, but find a way to fit it into your schedule and think, you know, carefully, "Where could I get a little bit more sunlight?" And if that's, "Okay, I get up, I make my coffee, I have to drive 45 minutes," and maybe you park your, your car farther away from your office building. You walk for three minutes, four, fi- give me five minutes, amazing. Or if you're commuting on the subway, try to extend another stop, walk one more stop before you go underground, walk to your coffee, or, you know, park your car instead of doing the drive through. I think these little micro-habits can go so far.

Mel Robbins 35:04 Well, I also think if you know that the reason why you're doing this is because you are using UV rays to manually reset the circadian rhythm in your body to go, "Okay, we're starting to practice. The thing I'm doing right now when I wake up is helping my body

Mel Robbins 35:20 do what it's designed to do, which is-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 35:21 Totally.

Mel Robbins 35:22 ... sleep," um, what about for somebody that's listening who wakes up before the sun is even out, so you are going to work or to school or you live up- in a part of the world where it's really dark out when you wake up?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 35:33 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 35:33 What can you do?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 35:35 Such a great question, and there are more than 25 million Americans who work on shift schedules, so work, going to work and coming back from work at times-

Mel Robbins 35:41 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 35:42 ... that are mismatched with the patterns of light and darkness in our environment, and for all those re- the reasons that we just talked about, the importance of sunlight exposure, um, those individuals can really struggle. The good news is there are a lot of technologies that you can buy, um, and essentially if you're an office employee outside the traditional kind of nine to five, get one of these lights, they're- that ideally is blue daylight spectrum, and you can sit in front of that light, turn it on high when you get to the office because what you wanna do is you wanna trick your body into thinking that that's sunrise. If that's your work schedule, you know, an early start, or conversely, if you're starting your day at, you know, 9:00 or 10:00 PM when it's dark, uh, we'll talk-

Mel Robbins 36:17 Because you're working an overnight shift.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 36:19 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 36:19 I've done that, and you feel like a zombie. Is this something though, just to make sure, 'cause I know people are gonna be like, "Okay, ???," is this something you can literally buy at a retailer or go on Amazon and just google blue daylight spectrum light and you can purchase one? You don't need a prescription from a sleep researcher?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 36:34 Um, essentially, these technologies are widely available, um, and if you look for the, m- um, the lights that say specifically they're blue daylight spectrum because we really want that light being strong enough to emulate the sun, and so it can be strong enough that it's actually a treatment for seasonal affective disorder because it's, um, th- some of them are that potent. And you sit in front of them a- and don't stare at it any more than you would the sun, uh, but that can be a helpful part

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 37:00 of adapting to a shift schedule.

Mel Robbins 37:03 So let's say the person listening is thinking, "Oh, man."My, I, I don't have a consistent bedtime. I'm not looking at the UV. I'm all over the place. I gotta get my circadian rhythm back in place. How do you shift or reset your circadian rhythm to a healthy kinda 24-hour cycle?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 37:25 Really good question, and I think, um, one of the key questions to ask yourself is, "Where can I find some normalcy in my personal schedule?" And if you're keeping what we call a yo-yo schedule, falling asleep at one time one night, another time the next night, another time the next night, is that in your control? Is it maybe that just the hours fly and you're kind of leaning in, maybe you're watching another epi- episode on, you know, streaming, and then, you know, you get an Instagram, you know, alert, and then suddenly, you know, it's way past your bedtime and you're looking at, you know, a short sleep window? So really ask yourself, are you doing this and is it in your control? And if you're willing to, to try this out, what you could do if you ha- you do have control over your schedule, look at your typical week. What is the earliest time that you have to wake up? Is it, say, seven o'clock for an 8:00 AM meeting, and that allows you time to get ready and do your commute?

Mel Robbins 38:15 And get your light exposure.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 38:16 And (laughs) yeah, so let's make it 6:45.

Mel Robbins 38:18 (laughs)

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 38:19 (laughs) Sun might not be up then unless it's summertime but, um, so pick that time, and that's your wake time. And ideally that's your alarm clock seven days of the week, because if we can s- if we sleep in, we really recommend no more than an hour. Much more than that throws that internal circuitry out of whack.

Mel Robbins 38:36 Wait a minute. So if I sleep in on the weekend more than an hour, I'm throwing my circadian rhythm off?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 38:42 That internal system. Mm-hmm. Much more than an hour, and we all know this. We just went through daylight saving time, and that one hour is enough to throw all of us out of sync, right?

Mel Robbins 38:52 Yeah.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 38:52 So much more than an hour is not recommended. Um, so if you look at your typical week and say, you know, "What is my earliest wake-up time?" And then you hit your target wake-up time for the week. Again, sleeping in an hour, absolutely fine, but much more than that, try to, try to avoid. Um, but then count back. Give yourself a full nine hours because our biological need for sleep is individual. Some people do very well on seven and some people do much better on nine, and it's in part genetically kind of hardwired. And so if you had two parents that were longer sleepers, and you're truly sleeping eight or nine hours a night, you might be a longer sleeper. And then if you had two short sleeping parents, you might be lucky and really, truly only need closer to seven. But if you count back nine, that could maybe add a little bit of time for your wind-down routine.

Mel Robbins 39:36 Okay.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 39:37 And so those nine hours count down, and that's your target fall asleep time, or I should say, get ready for bedtime.

Mel Robbins 39:43 Got it. I wanna make sure

Mel Robbins 39:45 that you hear this because this is the kind of advice that, as you're listening or watching us, somebody's gonna be like, "Ba-ba-ba-ba-ba. Okay, yeah. Night, na-na-na-na," but this is critical because if, you, you gotta stop and think about what is the wake-up time that sets me up to be able to do some of the things that Dr. Robbins is gonna tell us based on the research makes us a better sleeper, because we are learning that better sleep begins with what you do once you wake up. So she's saying once you know your wake-up time, and I'm gonna do some math here because I think it's really important. Let's say it's just 6:00 AM. That's what you need, 6:00 AM. She says count back nine hours, and so that means, where are we? 9:00 PM.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 40:21 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 40:22 Right?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 40:22 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 40:22 And that is the time that you now need to start the wind-down routine based on research that will help you start to get the sleep that you need so that when you wake up, you feel refreshed. You aren't so tired. You got the benefit of sleep. You know, I, I, I, I love what you're teaching us because this is within all of our power if we choose to follow it and we choose to try it, and so we've talked about circadian rhythm, and consistency was a huge takeaway.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 40:52 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 40:52 And we've talked also about how one of the big things that we need to do is get this light first thing in the morning or that blue spectrum light if you need to get it from a different source if you're not getting outside. But can we talk more about light the rest of the day?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 41:09 It's a really great question. Morning light exposure is, is helpful and good-

Mel Robbins 41:14 Okay.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 41:14 ...um, but actually getting exposure all o- o- um, all across the typical day is vitally important. Actually, in the afternoon, it's just as important as the morning, so I didn't mean to privilege the morning over the afternoon. But instead, getting exposure to fresh air and natural light over the course of the day is extremely important to help our body get information, "Okay, we're still in, in the wake phase. It's not quite sleep yet." And then going into darkness is equally as important as exposure to light during the day because that absence of light does the converse. It allows for the secretion of melatonin and for the brain to say, "Ah, we're approaching bedtime. Let's start to, to power down." And so unfortunately, um, many of us have bright blue light emitting devices all around us, not only our light bulbs but also the devices that we carry around with us, you know, our smartphones, our tablets, our computer screens. Now, in a perfect world, we would be able to unplug even give me 15 minutes before bedtime and, you know, start small. If you find that you're a little bit addicted to your phone, it's hard to put it down, start with maybe five minutes. If you could swipe, swipe to airplane mode, amazing. And I think there's something also powerful about that to say, "I'm off for the night. I might be receiving messages, but they can wait until the morning." And think about all day long we do things for other people in our careers and our personal lives. We care for children, we care for older adults, we, spouses, you know, we help and support people in the workplace, and that another mindset is, you know, "This is my time at night for me-"

Mel Robbins 42:47 Hmm.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 42:47 ...and really consciously, purposefully turning your phone off. So if you find yourself a little bit addicted to your phone, start small. Try just five minutes before you wanna be falling asleep. Switch your phone off. Try to give yourself at least a little bit of a buffer, and then maybe work up to 15. Maybe work up to 30 minutes. Now, if you're telling me, "Look, I'm a student. I have work to do. I'm a busy professional. I have stuff I need to be doing up until the minute I fall asleep," I would implore you just to ask yourself, "Is there anything off screens that I can do at night?"Do all your screen work in the- during the day. And if it's reading a couple emails even, and you can print them out, or reading a book or, you know, any- anything that you can shift from your workday into non-screen time, and do that at

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 43:30 night. So I think there's even to meet- a way to meet even the busiest of people where they are.

Mel Robbins 43:34 But- but Dr. Robbins, you're nice. I'm not gonna be nice.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 43:37 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 43:37 Like I think that's a bunch of garbage, that you have to be on your phone-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 43:43 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 43:43 ... or on your laptop until you collapse into bed, as if you're just gonna collapse or fall asleep in bed with your laptop open because you don't have time between the stopping of work and the falling sleep. Complete and utter garbage.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 43:58 I really agree with you.

Mel Robbins 43:59 And if you can-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 44:00 I think that for all of us even, the most busy person (laughs) but-

Mel Robbins 44:02 Honestly, if you can't- if you can't put your phone on airplane or stick it in the other room and give yourself five measly minutes, then don't be coming here and complaining about how tired you are. Like that- that's the thing that you have to understand, is that the research is very clear and it's- and it's going to be- it's going to be very simple. I didn't say easy. It's gonna be simple to put into your life, but you've got to want to get a good night's sleep. You've gotta want to stop waking up tired and exhausted. And so really stop and think if this is you, that you're that addicted to work or that addicted to your phone that you cannot carve out five minutes, you're never gonna change this.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 44:44 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 44:44 And so I also am gonna come back to the math, because this is why it becomes really important to get very specific with yourself. If you're gonna wake up at 6:00 and you're gonna back up the nine hours like Dr. Robbins is telling you to do, and she's also saying, you gotta have a buffer. You gotta have a buffer from the last screen time to when you're gonna start falling asleep. Then maybe you need to put an alarm in your phone at 8:45 because that's the time you gotta stop looking at the darn thing.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 45:12 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 45:13 And so anyway, you're nice, I am not.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 45:15 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 45:16 I'm just like, you can't complain about something-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 45:18 Totally.

Mel Robbins 45:18 ... and expect it to change.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 45:19 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 45:20 You gotta do something.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 45:20 Totally. And it comes back to this idea that good sleep actually does take a little bit of work. And it's not gonna come easy, but we get so frustrated when we're like, "I'm here, I'm trying, I'm doing everything," but being really critical. I love your points about, you know, what really... Be honest with yourself, right? Are- do you really need to be on social media for-

Mel Robbins 45:37 No.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 45:37 ... 20 minutes before bedtime? (laughs)

Mel Robbins 45:40 You don't. You don't.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 45:40 Totally.

Mel Robbins 45:41 And- and so that- that like- and- and that's the thing, like I know we're all tired and we- I- and there's- there's periods of your life where there are very real things going on that are beating you up.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 45:51 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 45:51 But I think for most of us, most of us need to have a moment of honesty with ourselves.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 45:56 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 45:57 That we are making ourselves exhausted. We are giving our attention and our brain power over to the phone and social media and to all of these screens-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 46:05 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 46:06 ... and we are not taking the wind-down routine seriously.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 46:09 Totally.

Mel Robbins 46:09 And so if you are serious about wanting to feel more energized, if you're serious about getting better sleep, you gotta try what Dr. Robbins is telling you, and you're not gonna like it-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 46:19 Mm-mm.

Mel Robbins 46:19 ... because you're used to just kind of going through the thing.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 46:22 Mm-hmm. It's not sexy. You know, like I can't-

Mel Robbins 46:23 No.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 46:23 I'm not here to say drink a- a couple glasses of wine and then, you know, spend some time on social media. Um, but what really works when it comes to sleep is old school stuff. It's getting off of our screens. It's powering down, you know, making a cup of tea. I love the Swedish tradition of- of hygge, this idea of, you know, warm, cozy time before bed. The Swedish culture has a word for this. And I think as Americans me think, you know, "I'm just gonna write reports, I'm gonna send emails until the moment that I wanna be falling asleep."

Mel Robbins 46:54 Right.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 46:54 And then so many of us wonder why we struggle. But even just a couple minutes, and then maybe build up to 10 minutes, and then maybe 15, and maybe 30 off of your phone or your screens or your laptop before bedtime can do a world of good, because that- all those devices are engaging the prefrontal cortex, the planning, the thinking part of the brain, and in many times giving you exposure that mimics the sun right when you wanna be falling asleep. So it's this cocktail (laughs) of sleep inhibitors really when you think about it.

Mel Robbins 47:25 So should we be watching TV before we go to bed?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 47:28 Well some people s- swear by an episode of Seinfeld or Friends or, um, some people listen to podcasts also, and, you know, that's part of their ritual. And I will say, if it's not broken, don't fix it. If that works for you and you don't find that it- and really being honest with yourself, it doesn't wake you up, because some people, uh, will maybe fall asleep to that, but they- maybe they don't have a timer on, and then when, you know, there's a- a louder part of the show, it'll wake them up, and then they'll go back to sleep and people say, "Oh, no, no, it's fine, it's- it's what I do every night." Uh, but what we really wanna work towards is a night of uninterrupted sleep.

Mel Robbins 48:02 What happens if you get up in the middle of the night, like I used to all the time, 2:14 was my number, 2:14 Mel Robbins. Up, gotta go to the bathroom. What happens if you're up in the middle of the night and I know I'm not supposed to look at my phone, but I would pick it up and I'd use it as a flashlight and then I'd get to the toilet, Dr. Robbins, and I'd flip that sucker over and next thing you know, I'm surfing social media-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 48:25 You're scrolling. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 48:25 ... or checking out text messages-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 48:27 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 48:27 ... while I'm going to the bathroom in the middle of the night?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 48:29 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 48:29 What does

Mel Robbins 48:30 that blue light exposure do when you look at your phone once you wake up?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 48:33 I think that's really common, and also kind of the- the rote procedure of waking up, whether it's in the middle of the night, whether it's in the morning, and reaching right for your phone.

Mel Robbins 48:40 Yes.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 48:40 It's kind of like an automatic response (laughs) , right, that we've conditioned ourselves to do. Um, a couple suggestions for that. Um, try, and again, this kind of comes back to the idea of these old school tricks, but, um, a night light in your hallway. Uh, sensor-activated night lights, not only for your hallway but maybe also they have them for the rim of your toilet, which is like a little bit gross, but, um, that allows you-

Mel Robbins 49:00 (laughs)

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 49:00 ... to if you have to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night, you know-... get there.

Mel Robbins 49:03 Well, does it make it harder to fall asleep if you look at your phone when you wake up in the middle of the night?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 49:08 So the reason I bring up lights is that can guide you and, and reduce your reliance on your smartphone to get to where you need to go.

Mel Robbins 49:14 Yes.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 49:14 When it comes to picking up the phone, though, maybe not for, you know, the flashlight funct- function, but just to maybe see if you got any messages. You're like, "I'm up. I might as well be productive."

Mel Robbins 49:23 Or, "I'm bored," or, "I can't-"

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 49:24 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 49:24 "... fall asleep, so I'm just gonna look at my phone."

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 49:26 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 49:26 Done all of these things.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 49:27 Coming back to that idea of working towards consolidated sleep. So when you get up the next time, if this is y- you know, anyone listening, the next time, take it in stride. That's the first thing. Don't kick yourself, because

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 49:38 it's so easy to say, "Oh, I'm up again," and then your cortisol spikes, and then it's harder for us to fall asleep. Take it in stride. Get up and say, "Oh, did I, you know, do I need to use the bathroom?" Go to the bathroom, and then crawl back into bed. Resist looking at the phone.

Mel Robbins 49:51 Okay.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 49:51 Crawl back into bed and try again. Um, and we'll go through a great bedtime routine, but every good routine will culminate with a couple final things. And if it's prayer for you, if it's progressive muscle relaxation, clenching and released, releasing different muscle groups, if it's closing your eyes when you crawl into the sheets and focusing on one good thing from our day, I think that could be one small thing that we could all do, you know, and, um, really benefit from. Um, but focus on one small thing. Whatever it is that, those final steps of the routine that get you to sleep, come back to those when you're awake in the middle of the night. Crawl back into bed. Do that last progressive muscle r- relaxation or, um, kind of gratitude exercise, and then try again. Close the eyes and, you know, slip off. And if that voice again rears its ugly head of, you know, "Oh, not again, not again, I'm up," that is when you get out of bed.

Mel Robbins 50:45 Wait, get out of bed?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 50:46 And this sounds antithetical. You're like, "You're a sleep researcher. Shouldn't I si- I'm in bed, shouldn't I stay here?" But wrong. If we stay in bed and we're tossing and turning, either at the beginning of our s- our sleep episode or if we wake up and struggle to fall back asleep, we're starting to associate our bed with stress. It's one of the biggest myths people often will tell us on our surveys. "Oh, you know, if I c- if I stay in bed, I'll get some sleep. It's better, right, than if I got out of bed." Wrong. Because we start to toss and turn. We start to increase the temperature of our bedroom environment, which is not good, and then we start to identify our bed as a place where we experience insomnia. We wake up at 2:14, right, and we start to tell ourselves these stories. And then th- they become a reality.

Mel Robbins 51:28 Because now you're telling-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 51:29 But instead-

Mel Robbins 51:29 ... yourself that this is what I do at 2:14.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 51:30 Exactly. You're classically conditioning yourself to look at your bed as a stressful place. So you want to break that cycle. As soon as that voice comes on and says, "Oh, not again, I'm up," that is when you want to condition yourself instead to get out of bed. Keep the lights low, and go sit in a criss-cross applesauce and do a meditation exercise, a breathing exercise on the floor or on an armchair. Read a couple pages of a book, ideally with a, a lamp that has a, a kind of sleep-friendly light bulb. These are also widely available and not expensive. Install all sleep-friendly bulbs in your room. Get all of the fluorescents out of there. And if you, you know, you're really struggling, maybe read a couple pages in a book or, you know, really do anything that's boring and it's gonna put you back to sleep. Fold socks. I love to say, your, your spouse will love you. Do all the boring, you know, house chores that you find to be soporific. Save that for when you have some insomnia, like symptoms-

Mel Robbins 52:24 Wow.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 52:24 ... and come back to those.

Mel Robbins 52:25 So, what would you say to somebody who thinks they're a bad sleeper?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 52:28 I think first s- changing the narrative to yourself is the first step, to say, "I got this. You know, I'm not a bad sleeper. No big deal. I'm struggling a little bit. It'll come back." And we're gonna talk about the tools to come to and really have, you know, in your toolkit when problems rear their ugly head, because they do for all of us. People always come to me and they're like, "Isn't your sleep perfect?" I'm like, "No, of course not." I'm a mom of two. I have a busy career, you know, a relationship, so many things going on for all of us that can hinder our ability to get good quality sleep. So number one, changing the, the narrative that you tell yourself, and then pulling on some of the levers of change that we're gonna talk about. Try them all. Let me cut out caffeine and see if that helps. Let me cut out alcohol. Let me see if that helps. Let me move my dinner three hours earlier. Let me add a meditation technique or routine, uh, to my power down ritual. Um, but trying all of these, kind of the suite and the constellation of healthy sleep strategies, that's the second step. Now, if you've done all of that, and really done it, 'cause some people are like, "Oh, you know, I've tried that. I've tried that."

Mel Robbins 53:29 Yeah, sure.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 53:29 Um, you know, "Oh, it didn't work." Um, but really giving it a, a shot, you know, th- thought about a week and really gone ham on all of these strategies, and if you're s- really still struggling, chronically struggling to fall asleep, I'm talking 20 or more minutes every single night, 30, 40 minutes to fall asleep, or if you're up every single night, can't fall back asleep, wired, uh, or if you're practicing all the dictates of the healthy sleep strategies that we're gonna talk about and you're still like, "I think I'm waking up," those are sleep disorders. And that's where the sleep strategies will not work," and you do need to seek medical attention before you can start to reap the benefits of some of these behavioral tips and strategies.

Mel Robbins 54:07 Terrific. That's super clear. You know, one of the levers that you're teaching us that you can pull based on the research is also temperature. Temperature is something that can help you fall asleep.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 54:18 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 54:18 And how is temperature

Mel Robbins 54:20 related to getting better sleep?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 54:22 Hmm. Temperature is a really important consideration that's often overlooked. I think a lot of us think, um, you know, you want a warm and cozy environment for sleep, right? You want lots of blankets and you want to be warm and cozy. Um, but if you find that you're waking up maybe in a sweat or with the chills, that could be a sign that you personally are not in the right range for you. And if you're m- in the men- menopausal period, you might need to be on the cooler side, even below the cooler s- you know, range, um, so 65 or below, or maybe look into some products or things that you could have in your bedroom environment to purposefully cool you further because of some of the, the challenges there, and airflow is another great strategy in that life stage.

Mel Robbins 55:03 What does airflow mean?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 55:05 Generally, uh, w- during sleep at night, we want to have mattresses, pillows, things in our environment-

Mel Robbins 55:10 Sheets.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 55:10 ... that are promoting airflow and temperature regulation. Anything that's gonna be kind of blocking airflow or, you know, not be breathable would then, of course, increase temperature.

Mel Robbins 55:21 I thought breathable meant you pick up the comforter and flap it like a wing to try to fan yourself.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 55:25 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 55:25 But I know exactly what you're talking about.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 55:28 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 55:28 That if it's a fabric that's blocking-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 55:30 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 55:30 ... your ability to regulate your temperature.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 55:33 Lower b- bo- core body temperature is associated with sleep onset, so that is ideal, especially to help us fall asleep. But over the course of our sleep at night, there are stages where we're not able to, here's another fun science term, thermal regulate. (laughs) In other words, shiver if we're cold or sweat if we're hot. And so because of w- we'll be, you know, the fact that we'll be going in and out of different sleep stages, and in some of those stages, we're not able to regulate our temperature, you wanna be in a range that's called thermal neutral. So about 65 to 68 is generally that range where if, you know, you're in that stage where you're not able to engage in those, you know, shivering or, or sweating, you, you won't, you'll be fine because you'll, you're in the, the range where you can maintain a, an appropriate body temperature.

Mel Robbins 56:20 So if you were to say, "We're gonna set the temperature in the bedroom to a certain temperature," what temperature do you want the person listening to set their bedroom temperature to tonight for optimal sleep?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 56:34 Well, if you're able to, I'm, y- also, think about what temperature it is outside. And so right now in Boston, it's perfect to have your windows open if you're able to, 'cause not everyone is in an environment that they're able to open their window. Maybe it's lo- loud, maybe there are noises outside their window. Um, but if you are able to open the window, what an amazing thing, right? You get fresh air, s- you know, regulating, um, your bedroom environment. So be mindful of the temperature outside, but if you're setting, you, you have, um, central air, s- think about that range, 65 to 68. It's not that wide. So maybe start at 65, and if you find yourself too cold, then maybe go up to 66 or 67 or 68. So there is a lot of individual preference in that range, and also the bedroom environment, um, and what you have on the bed specifically will matter. So if you have a very light blanket, then you could maybe get by on, um, the higher end of the spectrum. Or if you really like, you know, cozy blankets, then you might wanna go down to 65.

Mel Robbins 57:28 Can you describe the perfect bedroom to get a better night's sleep?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 57:32 I love talking about the bedroom because I think it's one place where we could all make small changes. And you wanna set yourself up for success in your bedroom, and I want you really to walk in and feel instantly soothed. Ask yourself tonight when you walk into your bedroom, "What in here is stressing me out?" And remove it. If it's an a- alarm clock that you hate, if it's a pillow that you hate, get it out. And I think sometimes upgrading the pillows, the mattress are really important. Someti- times people can't even tell me when they bought their mattress or their pillows, and these things do not last forever. So like you were saying, I loved your comments, you know, you look forward, you s- eh, snuggle into your sheets, and it's this amazing feeling. I want you, you listening to want that, you know, s- that moment of slipping in and just loving your bed and feeling instantly relaxed and like ready, you know, ready for sleep and looking forward to it. Um, but the, mm, and the, mm, the design of a great bedroom has a couple other things. Again, we talked about temperature. Hopefully you're in the 65 to 68 degree range. Dark is also vital. Our eyelids are some of the, the thinnest pieces of skin on our bodies, and even light from a cable box or coming through a curtain from light outside your, your bedroom environment can be enough to disrupt your sleep, believe it or not. So I want your bed pitch-black. Walk in tonight after sunset, and y- you can put tape, um, masking tape or duct tape over, um, any light sources. Sometimes cable boxes have little lights on them, chargers. Anything that's a, uh, light-emitting source, get that out of the bedroom, because then a pitch-black environment will do you so much good and really set you up for success from the standpoint of melatonin secreting and all of the things that are so necessary to help you fall asleep.

Mel Robbins 59:18 I love this. So tonight when you walk into your bedroom, or after you're done listening to this, walk into your bedroom, what is in there that's stressing you out? And I can think about periods in my life where there were piles of laundry-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 59:30 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 59:31 ... in my bedroom. And, you know, things that I needed to do, and all of that stuff that wasn't finished would stress me out.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 59:40 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 59:40 And so clear out-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 59:42 It's a reminder.

Mel Robbins 59:42 ... anything, right?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 59:42 Of your to-do list, yeah.

Mel Robbins 59:43 Yeah, it's a reminder of your to-do list.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 59:44 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 59:44 So de-clutter your room. You want the temperature between 65 and 68. You want to have a pitch-black environment, and to the extent it's within your reach, get a mattress that you love, invest in coziness in your sheets and in your bedding, and you know, don't be embarrassed if you've had the same thing for a long time.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:00:05 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:00:05 Chris and I just replaced our mattress. We've been sleeping on it for 22 years, the same mattress, everybody. So if you are in that camp, uh, (laughs) -

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:00:14 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:00:14 ... your friend Mel Robbins, uh, just got a new mattress. So-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:00:18 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:00:18 ... uh, you won't be alone.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:00:18 I love that, and the key thing is, you know, if you're telling me you have neck pain, you know, your mattress just isn't supporting you, then that's a great time to... And if your mattress lasts 20 years, amazing and wonderful, right? Keep it. So good for the environment, by the way. These things are not, you know, they're full of material that sometimes aren't, um, you know, disposable or, um, that aren't, uh, what's the word? Dis- not disposable.

Mel Robbins 1:00:39 Recyclable?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:00:39 Mm, yeah. They're full of materials that aren't necessarily recyclable. And so, um, eh, the key thing is just, you know, is it not a pla- is it not, you know, promoting airflow? Is it not supporting you? You're waking up with neck pain. Those can be signs that it might be time for a new mattress.

Mel Robbins 1:00:53 Let's talk about alcohol. How does alcohol impact your ability to sleep at night?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:00:59 Mm. My students love to tell me this. They're like, (laughs) "You're wrong."

Mel Robbins 1:01:02 (laughs)

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:01:03 "I'll drink and I'll put myself right to sleep." (laughs) Yes, alcohol, there's some truth in that statement though, what our, um, our young people will tell us, that alcohol will put you to sleep. Um, it's great at, in, eh, reducing s- the term that we refer to, sleep latency, which is falling as- the time it takes us to fall asleep. But what alcohol does is it starts to destroy the quality of our sleep. The idea that this is a, uh, a good thing for sleep is completely wrong. It's one of our biggest myths about sleep, that alcohol, a nightcap, is a good thing. D- depending on your body mass and your tolerance, one dose might be okay, but much more than that will start to virtually destroy the quality of your sleep.

Mel Robbins 1:01:44 Why?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:01:44 You've probably all been there.

Mel Robbins 1:01:45 Oh, I've, I mean, I, I wake up, eh, when I drink-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:01:48 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:01:48 ... I, I always wake up in the middle of the night.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:01:50 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:01:50 I fall asleep quickly.But I do not stay asleep.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:01:54 And it's not restorative. You wake up, even if you spent eight or nine or 10 hours sleeping, you often feel like you haven't slept a wink because the structure of our sleep starts to change and it simply disrupts that architecture so it's not as, it's very different than the structure of a natural sleep without alcohol. So it's very common for someone to wake up after a night of even just, you know, maybe one or two glasses and not feeling restored.

Mel Robbins 1:02:18 Well, I think universally speaking, when somebody does either Dry January or they stop drinking or they go for periods of time where they don't drink, better sleep-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:02:28 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:02:28 ... is 100% what people talk about.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:02:30 Absolutely. And it's amazing, right, when we think about, um, taking someone who drinks every night and then they are like, "Wow." You know, they do Dry January and it's this light bulb. And so thi- finding ways to extend those benefits into, you know, our calendar year. And even if it's Monday through Wednesday you're gonna be dry, uh, I think sometimes those very clear boundaries are so helpful because after a long day, it is so easy to say, you know, "Ugh, I earned it." You know, "I had a long night with the kids, a long day with the kids," or, you know, this colleague at work or, "This deadline is stressing me out. Ugh, I earned it." Um, but it, if you have, you know, structures in place to say, "Oh, no," and make it fun, you know, substitute, you know, a fun, you know, cup of tea ritual-

Mel Robbins 1:03:16 Well-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:03:16 ... with your partner-

Mel Robbins 1:03:17 ... I think what you're, what you're here teaching us is what you've earned is a great night's sleep.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:03:20 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:03:21 And giving yourself the gift-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:03:24 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:03:24 ... of better sleep is going to be a better reward than the glass of wine that sort of numbs you out. Speaking of drinking, let's talk about the impact of caffeine on sleep.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:03:34 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:03:35 And specifically coffee, but I'm also thinking about all of these energy drinks that people drink and the kind of pre-workout stuff that's just-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:03:43 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:03:43 ... pumped full of caffeine.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:03:45 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:03:45 How does caffeine impact sleep quality?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:03:49 Caffeine, like a drug, can stay in our system and it has what we call a half-life for six up to nine hours depending on your metabolism and how you metabolize personally caffeine, and there are some genetic differences. But by and large, caffeine is a significant disruptor of our sleep as a society. It's the number one most widely consumed drug in the world. Um, and look, I love coffee. I love the smell and so I find this to be such a struggle to, to cut off. But, um, really, you know, ask yourself and, and is one of your struggles a busy mind, heart racing before bed, can't, you know, calm down? Then you might be, you know, a good candidate to, to maybe have one less glass, um, one fewer cup a day. And so if you go for a walk and get a coffee in the afternoon, try for an herbal tea instead. Make one substitute and see how you feel. Or maybe some people swear by no coffee after lunch. So maybe you have one nice, you know, m- medium or, you know, try not for, try not to have the, you know, huge cups at some of the, um, the fast food chains that are just enormous and I think much more than even the FDA recommends, which is about 200 milligrams of caffeine. And that's in really a size small at most coffee, coffee places.

Mel Robbins 1:05:03 Wow.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:05:03 So just be mindful of not only the timing but how much you're consuming because each additional dose can extend that half-life even further. So say you have a, you know, a medium-sized, you know, Starbucks or Dunkin' Donuts in the morning and you drink that and then you go for one more in the afternoon. So then you've doubled the half-life, so it's not only the six hours from the first cup, but then that caffeine might be lingering in your system come-

Mel Robbins 1:05:25 Oh.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:05:25 ... 7:00, 8:00, 9:00.

Mel Robbins 1:05:27 Oh. So what time should you stop drinking caffeine? Let's say that your wind-down routine is gonna begin at 9:00 PM.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:05:34 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:05:35 What time should you stop drinking caffeine so it's out of your system and not impacting your sleep?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:05:39 Well, be mindful of, you know, if you're drinking coffee and it's not too much and you don't really ha- you don't have a problem with this, not really a problem. But if you find your heart racing, your mind racing, you're really struggling to fall asleep, caffeine is often one of the culprits.

Mel Robbins 1:05:52 Hm.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:05:52 And so I'd say take a day where you maybe cut it out or, or maybe try decaf. And try that for a day, see if y- you know, you can last 'cause I think sometimes we get so devoted to our coffee. But try that, um, and then see how your sleep is that next night. And then maybe add one more coffee back in in the morning and see how you do. And if you have no issues when bedtime rolls around the next night, keep that up. And then, you know, maybe you just keep that one cup a day or maybe you add one more and see if it has any negative impacts on your, your sleep. But again, I'm a big fan of very clear cut-offs. So lunch-

Mel Robbins 1:06:24 So coffee after lunch. No coffee after lunch.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:06:26 And it's hard 'cause I personally love coffee, but that's a big one for me because if it were up to m- I'd be drinking it all day. I just love the smell. But we, you know, really, I think behavior can become so mindless. And so really having these cut-offs that we, you know, can adhere to instead of, like, an abstract, "Oh, you know, I'll stop in the afternoon," and suddenly it's 3:00, 4:00 in the afternoon and any coffee at that time will likely be in your system around bedtime.

Mel Robbins 1:06:51 Another, uh, factor in sleep is food. So at what time should we stop eating, like, before we go to bed? So if we're gonna, again, start the wind-down, we're just gonna say 9:00 to make the math easy, when should you stop eating?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:07:05 Mm-hmm. Well, the, um, old adage from the nutrition literature of a breakfast of kings, a lunch of princes, and a dinner of paupers is actually really good for our sleep. The research shows in diets that are, um, they control for the amount of calories that you're eating, you actually lose weight if you are doing this breakfast of, of kings, lunch of princes, dinner of paupers. So it's good for your weight management ability, but it's also good for your sleep. So we don't have the, run the risk of our body digesting food as we go to bed if we keep dinner on the lighter side. There's also the intermittent fasting literature and it, it really came out of a circadian rhythms laboratory, which is so interesting. But the whole idea there, and some studies have shown different findings, but basically, listen to your body. If you're open to this, you might try it. If you find that dinner just keeps nudging later-And suddenly it's 9:00, 10:00 PM, you haven't eaten, your bedtime is in another hour, you might be a good candidate for this. Again, just a clear cutoff of like, is it 8:00 PM, I wanna be done eating. So then that means I'm eating dinner at 7:00, whether that's at the office, whether that's with my spouse. And so many people tell me, you know, "But m- my meal with my spouse is the only time that we have to be together." And I always respond to that, "It... You don't have to be together over food." And so, you know, looking forward to your date on S- Friday and, or Saturday night, or your weekends where you have a little bit more flexibility to really make a meal together, really enjoy it, really be present with each other. But then maybe during the workweek when you have a later time that you're getting home, and then maybe that your spouse is getting home late too, and then suddenly it's, you know, way into the, the evening hours and you're trying to, you know, desperately do something together, but maybe find another ritual. Maybe it's making a... I know it's kind of lame, but m- maybe you make a cup of tea together and you're playing a card game-

Mel Robbins 1:08:53 Well, I was just gonna say-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:08:55 ... right? Or thinking about your day.

Mel Robbins 1:08:55 My husband and I play Cribbage, and we also are crazy-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:08:58 I love it.

Mel Robbins 1:08:58 ... into... We're really radical puzzles. Like we have a, we have a-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:09:03 I love it.

Mel Robbins 1:09:03 ... jigsaw puzzle on the dining room table. And we sit around and... But, but-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:09:08 That's amazing.

Mel Robbins 1:09:08 ... if there were a rule of thumb, because I've noticed one thing that's made a difference for Chris and our son who's in high school is, we were getting out of the habit of-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:09:18 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:09:19 ... eating early, and all of a sudden dinner's at 7:00. Then it's at 8:00, and it's creeping right up on bedtime, which for me is winding down around 9:00.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:09:28 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:09:29 And I pushed dinner to 5:30, because otherwise our son was coming home from sports practices and eating half the refrigerator, and by the time dinner was cooked, he's already h- fed himself dinner. But I've noticed-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:09:43 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:09:43 ... it's made a big difference with my sleep and my bedtime routine to be done eating several hours before-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:09:51 I love it.

Mel Robbins 1:09:51 ... I am going to bed. And so if it helps knowing that you should stop eating two hours before you go to bed.

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:09:57 Mm-hmm. I love that routine. So you're, it sounds like, doing maybe intermittent fasting without even knowing it. 'Cause you've buffered, you've added about three or four hours before you're falling asleep and you're done eating. And so that's time that you're just, you're fasting actually. You're extending the fast that we naturally do over the course of our sleep. And there are so many benefits to fasting. Just giving our digestive system a break is really the whole idea behind intermittent fasting. So if you can find a time, if it's 5:30, if it's 6:00, and really try to be diligent. If your son is on a bus to sports practice or, you know, driving, he has a meal that he, that you cook, you made for him or you cooked, and he's eating it at the sports field before he goes on. Or a smoothie, I'm a big fan of smoothies actually for dinner. I know everyone dr- drinks them for breakfast, but if you're busy, getting some good calories in, it's light, it's likely to not disrupt your sleep at night, can be amazing for someone who's busy, strapped for time, et cetera. But it, you know, it kind of comes back to this idea of good sleep takes planning.

Mel Robbins 1:10:55 I'm curious, Dr. Robbins, can you just walk us through the day in terms of you wake up when the alarm rings, and then what are all the little things that you want us to do at what time-

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:11:07 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:11:08 ... that help you stack up these habits that lead to a great night sleep?

Dr. Rebecca Robbins 1:11:12 It's a great question. Um, and think about y- you listening, um, how you can fit these into your life because of course there's the best case scenario and then there's real life, right? But I think that there's a lot of opportunity to meet all of us where we are with some of these recommendations. So the question for you becomes, how can I implement these things? But one thing we know is good, blue light, as much as you can over the course of the day. So whether that's walking an extra subway stop or walking to your office building a little bit, parking your car a little bit further away, getting as much light exposure as you can in the morning, getting a healthy, hearty breakfast. The research shows that a h- a heavy, hearty breakfast is great because we're getting the calories that we'll need to fuel our waking success, and then keeping dinner on the lighter side. And then over the course of the day, a hearty lunch, and then limiting caffeine, um, consumption over the course of the day. And then a little bit more light exposure would be wonderful. I'm always getting questions, you know, "What's the cure for the afternoon slump?" And truly, we all have it, it's just a time where we've maybe been up for a long period of time at that point, we have a little dip in our core body temperature in the afternoon, all of us, and then coupled with maybe a heavy lunch, then you can... Really it's kind of the perfect storm sometimes for, for