How to Talk to Difficult People: Proven Strategies to Stop Arguments & Feel Connected Again

1. 0:00 – 1:51

   Welcome

   1. CDCharles Duhigg0:00

      The most toxic thing that happens in a relationship is what's known as kitchen sinking.

   2. MRMel Robbins0:05

      Okay. What's kitchen sinking?

   3. CDCharles Duhigg0:06

      Kitchen sinking is when we start fighting about one thing, and suddenly, we're fighting about everything. We can see what's happening inside your brain as you're having a conversation.

   4. MRMel Robbins0:12

      Ooh.

   5. CDCharles Duhigg0:12

      And what they said is...

   6. MRMel Robbins0:14

      You're at a standoff. One word turns into a lecture. One look, next thing you know you're arguing. And now, you're stuck. How do you talk to your family when you don't agree? When it's not just a difference of opinion, it's a crack in your relationship? Well, that's why I have brought in a world-class heavyweight when it comes to this issue. I'm talking about none other than Charles Duhigg. He's a Pulitzer Prize-winning, three times New York Times best-selling author, world-renowned researcher on the topic of how to connect and communicate with people. His work and research changed my life. I have cited his research in two of my best-selling books. I've shared his research on stages around the world. Charles' most recent book, Super Communicators, cracked something open in me, and it's gonna do the same for you. Charles is gonna teach you how to finally feel understood in your family, in your marriage, in your friendships, at work, in your life.

   7. CDCharles Duhigg1:11

      There's things that we don't want to talk about with, with our spouses, with our siblings, with our coworkers. And the thing that we know-know is that if you have the right skills, you can connect with anyone.

   8. MRMel Robbins1:23

      Really?

   9. CDCharles Duhigg1:23

      The best communicators ask 10 to 20 times as many questions as the average person.

   10. MRMel Robbins1:28

       10 to 20 times?

   11. CDCharles Duhigg1:29

       10 to 20 times. But they're asking a specific kind of question. Conversations can change the world. The right conversation at the right moment with your dad can change your relationship with him e- entirely. The right conversation at the right moment with someone you're dating makes you fall in love. Anyone can connect with anyone else. The key is...

2. 1:51 – 7:42

   Communication is Your Hidden Superpower

   1. CDCharles Duhigg1:51

   2. MRMel Robbins1:51

      Oh, my God. Charles Duhigg, I cannot believe that you are here. I have been wanting you to be on the Mel Robbins Podcast since I started this. Thank you for jumping on a plane. Thank you for being here.

   3. CDCharles Duhigg2:03

      Thank you for having me. This is such a treat. I have to say, I'm a huge fan of the show. I'm a huge fan of you. And so, a chance for us to get to sit down and talk to each other is just such an honor and a joy. Thank you.

   4. MRMel Robbins2:12

      Aw. Well, I hope you feel the same after-

   5. CDCharles Duhigg2:14

      (laughs)

   6. MRMel Robbins2:14

      ... the conversation is over. I'm really excited about the conversation today because, uh, you are the person that I think could help us understand a topic that we're seeing in the inbox over and over and over again, which is this idea of feeling like you want to be closer to people that you have fundamental disagreements with-

   7. CDCharles Duhigg2:39

      Yeah.

   8. MRMel Robbins2:40

      ... and friction. And so, I'd love to have you start by telling the person who is listening what could change about their life or their relationships if they take everything to heart that you're about to share with us, and they put it to use in their life, they put it to use with people that they want to be closer to. What could change, Charles?

   9. CDCharles Duhigg2:59

      Well, I, I think, I think a lot of us have anxiety around our relationships, right? We have anxiety around conversations. There's things that we don't want to talk about with, with our spouses, with our siblings, with our coworkers. And the thing that we know-know is that if you have the right skills, you can connect with anyone. By the end of this episode, my goal is that people will say, "I'm not gonna be anxious about having that conversation anymore. I know that I can talk to my uncle. I can talk to my husband about that thing that I've been avoiding. I can talk to the guy at work who I disagree with, and we're actually, like, fighting with each other over what the budget should be. I know how to have that conversation in a way that, even if we disagree with each other, that we still feel connected to each other, that that conversation becomes a joy for me rather-"

   10. MRMel Robbins3:42

       Joy?

   11. CDCharles Duhigg3:42

       "... than a source of anxiety."

   12. MRMel Robbins3:43

       Now, that's a high bar.

   13. CDCharles Duhigg3:43

       I, it's-

   14. MRMel Robbins3:44

       Charles-

   15. CDCharles Duhigg3:44

       It is a high bar.

   16. MRMel Robbins3:45

       ... bar.

   17. CDCharles Duhigg3:45

       But I think we can hit it. I, I have believe in us.

   18. MRMel Robbins3:47

       Okay. I, I'm gonna lean in because I... And I'm gonna, I'm gonna actually give you, as you're listening, an invitation. I want you to think about one or two people in your life that you need to have a conversation, or there's some issue where you're just like, "I don't even know who you are anymore. I, I, I can't talk to you about this kind of thing." I want you to have them in mind. I can think of two people in my life right now that I'm gonna start the conversation with. One of them is related to what I do in my career, and there's a topic that I don't know how to bring up. And the other one is related to topics inside my family related to politics that it's just gotten to the point where we can't even talk to each other. And I don't want it to be that way.

   19. CDCharles Duhigg4:28

       Yeah.

   20. MRMel Robbins4:29

       And, you know, I should say right off the bat, this is not going to be a conversation about what you believe. This is a conversation about how to talk to people where you have issues that you're just at this point where you're like, "Well, we just have to agree to disagree." And so, I want you to think of one or two people in your life that, "Boy, if I could actually be able to have a conversation with somebody and not have it tear us apart, or if I could have the ability to bring something up that I don't really know how to talk about, that's a really cool thing." And, you know, I gotta ask you, though, why should we learn how to have conversations when they only seem to create more emotion or frustration or distance or heartache with the people that you care about, especially when you disagree on the issue?

   21. CDCharles Duhigg5:20

       Because those conversations are oftentimes the most powerful conversations of our life. If I think about, like, why my wife and I fell in love, it was not because we went on a great vacation together. It was not because we saw a fun movie together. It's because we had conversations where I said something real and meaningful and vulnerable, and she said something that was vulnerable and real, and it changed how I saw the world. That is what brings us together. So, I'm not saying that you have to have a conversation with your family about politics, right? Part of being a good conversationalist is choosing what you want to talk about. And when I get together with my, my neighbor, he's got a different political sign on his lawn than I have on my lawn. But politics takes up like 2% of our brains, right? What we mostly think about is the pothole in the street that we want fixed. So, that's what I'm gonna talk about, is the pothole. But with those people that you care about, with your parents, with your children...... the most important conversations weren't necessarily the easiest conversations.

   22. MRMel Robbins6:24

       Hmm.

   23. CDCharles Duhigg6:25

       But they're the ones that you remember because they brought you closer together. They helped you understand how this person saw the world, and you helped them understand how you see the world. That is the greatest expression of what being a human is.

   24. MRMel Robbins6:39

       But I take it, based on the research in this book, you're gonna teach us how to do that even when we diabolically disagree-

   25. CDCharles Duhigg6:48

       Absolutely.

   26. MRMel Robbins6:48

       ... with the political sign that is in the neighbor or the parents or the brother-in-law's yard.

   27. CDCharles Duhigg6:54

       Absolutely. And it doesn't mean you have to avoid politics. In fact, you can have a conversation about politics and if you have the right skills to do so, even if you walk away still disagreeing with each other, you will feel closer to each other. You'll feel more connected. You'll feel like the conversation was a success. This is the thing about conversations. Conversations can change the world. The right conversation at the right moment with your dad can change your relationship with him e- entirely. The right conversation at the right moment with someone you're dating d- makes you fall in love. Conversations are incredibly powerful. But the way that we have them so that they are powerful is that we use skills, skills that we know, skills that we use with our best friends. We use those skills on everyone.

   28. MRMel Robbins7:40

       Ah.

   29. CDCharles Duhigg7:40

       We become a super communicator.

3. 7:42 – 15:05

   It’s Time to Get on the Same Page

   1. CDCharles Duhigg7:43

   2. MRMel Robbins7:43

      Charles, first of all, I am such a huge fan. You have won the Pulitzer Prize for your reporting and writing. You wrote, in my opinion, the seminal book on the power of habits and research around habits.

   3. CDCharles Duhigg7:58

      Thank you.

   4. MRMel Robbins7:58

      And you are such an important mind and writer, and now you have written this book, Super Communicators: How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection. Why the heck did you decide to write this book?

   5. CDCharles Duhigg8:12

      So, it's a good question. For me, this actually started a couple years before I began working on the book with this pattern that I fell into with my wife, which I, I, I assume is probably familiar to you, probably to many people listening, which is, I would come home from work, and I was working at the New York Times at that point, and I would start complaining about my day and talking about, you know, my boss doesn't appreciate me and my coworkers don't realize what a genius I am. And my wife, very reasonably, would offer me some really good solutions. She would say something like, "Why don't you take your boss out to lunch? And you guys can get to know each other." And instead of being able to hear the good advice she was giving me, I would get even more upset. Right? And I would say, "Why aren't you supporting me? You're supposed to be on my side! You should be outraged on my behalf!" And she would get upset because I was attacking her for giving me good advice. Does this ever happen to you and your husband, that when one person wants to discuss an emotional problem, the other person offers solutions to it that are not necessarily appreciated?

   6. MRMel Robbins9:07

      It not only happens with my husband, because I'm your wife, I'm Miss-

   7. CDCharles Duhigg9:10

      (laughs)

   8. MRMel Robbins9:10

      ..."Let Me Solve the Problem."

   9. CDCharles Duhigg9:11

      (laughs)

   10. MRMel Robbins9:11

       But it happens all the time with my adult kids.

   11. CDCharles Duhigg9:15

       Yes.

   12. MRMel Robbins9:16

       Where they're sharing about something and I will either see the other person's side-

   13. CDCharles Duhigg9:22

       Absolutely.

   14. MRMel Robbins9:22

       ... which just pisses them off so much, "You're not hearing me! Can you just validate me?" Which is a helpful cue, but yeah, I, I, I think am the chief offender in my relationships of not actually listening the right way.

   15. CDCharles Duhigg9:38

       You're right, it's about listening, but it's also about understanding what's actually happening in that conversation.

   16. MRMel Robbins9:43

       Okay.

   17. CDCharles Duhigg9:44

       So after I had this issue with my wife, I went to all these researchers and I asked them, "Why do I keep making this mistake again and again and again?" And they said, "Well, we're really glad you showed up 'cause we're actually living through this golden age of understanding communication. For like the first time in human history, because of advances in neuroscience and, and neural imaging and data collection, we can see what's happening inside your brain as you're having a conversation."

   18. MRMel Robbins10:04

       Oh.

   19. CDCharles Duhigg10:04

       And what they said is when you are having a discussion with your kids or I'm having a discussion with my wife, we think we know what that conversation is about. We think we're having a discussion about what happened today or how things are at work. But actually, we are having multiple different kinds of conversations all at the same time. And in general, these different kinds of conversations, they tend to fall into one of three buckets.

   20. MRMel Robbins10:26

       Okay, so there's three different types of conversations.

   21. CDCharles Duhigg10:27

       There's three different types of conversations.

   22. MRMel Robbins10:29

       Okay.

   23. CDCharles Duhigg10:29

       There's practical conversations, right? Where we're making plans together or we're solving problems. But then there's also emotional conversations where I tell you what I'm feeling and I don't want you to solve my feelings. I want you to empathize. I want you to validate me. I want you to tell me that, that it's gonna be okay, right? The same way that when your kids say to you, "Uh, Mom, I don't want you to solve this problem for me, I just want you to tell me that, like, it's gonna turn out all right," that's an emotional conversation. And then finally, the third type of conversation are social conversations.

   24. MRMel Robbins10:58

       What are those?

   25. CDCharles Duhigg10:59

       That's about how we relate to each other, how we relate to society, the identities that are important to us, uh, I identify as a mom or a dad or a worker. And what's really fascinating is all three kinds of conversations are all equally legitimate. And, and in a discussion, we'll probably have all three conversations. But what's important is if you and I are not having the same kind of conversation at the same moment, we can't really hear each other. Not completely. And we certainly don't, won't feel connected to each other, which is exactly what happened with me and my wife, or you and your kids, right? I came home, I was having an emotional conversation. Your kids ha- are having an emotional conversation. My wife responds with a practical conversation. She says, "Here's a solution." But because we're having different kinds of conversations, I can't hear the good advice she's giving me. All I do is I get more upset. And so one of the big skills that super communicators have, the best communicators, is they're aware of these different kinds of conversations and they're asking themselves, "What kind of conversation does this person want to have with me right now? And how do I invite them to have the kind of conversation that's important to me?"

   26. MRMel Robbins12:03

       So, one of the first takeaways is, 'cause I think we can all relate to that feeling of being misunderstood, and that feeling of not being listened to, or that feeling of being talked at, is that if you're in that frustrating dynamic with somebody where you come home, you just wanna vent, you just want somebody to connect with you emotionally, validate how you're feeling 'cause you're letting off steam, that-... when you have a mismatch because your wife's like, "Oh, well I don't want you to be sad. Let me problem solve."

   27. CDCharles Duhigg12:30

       Right.

   28. MRMel Robbins12:30

       And then you start to get frustrated and now you're actually causing tension with the two of you-

   29. CDCharles Duhigg12:36

       Yes.

   30. MRMel Robbins12:37

       ... and both of you are like, "Well we're just trying to have a conversation." One of the first skills that you're teaching us is in those moments ask yourself what am I actually trying to do here?
4. 15:05 – 18:08

   The Power of Deep Questions

   1. CDCharles Duhigg15:05

   2. MRMel Robbins15:05

      I don't understand what social conversations are.

   3. CDCharles Duhigg15:07

      So social conversations are actually the most frequent con- conversations we have.

   4. MRMel Robbins15:11

      Okay.

   5. CDCharles Duhigg15:11

      And, and it's... A social conversation is when in a conversation you say, "You know, the way that I see this, as a mom, is I see this a little bit differently than you."

   6. MRMel Robbins15:21

      Mm.

   7. CDCharles Duhigg15:22

      What you're doing is you're telling me who you are, how you see yourself. Or when we're saying, "Hey, you know, Jim was a little weird in that meeting. Like what do you think is going on with Jim? Like why wasn't he enthusiastic about this idea?" That's a social conversation.

   8. MRMel Robbins15:34

      And I'm assuming that most of the hot topics, whether it's politics or it's religion or it's issues that we see in the news or opinions about family members, that those are social conversations-

   9. CDCharles Duhigg15:46

      Those are social conversations, absolutely.

   10. MRMel Robbins15:48

       ... gone way wrong.

   11. CDCharles Duhigg15:48

       Absolutely. Okay. So let's talk about how to have those conversations a little bit better. And let me clarify for the three kinds of conversations they all have something different that we're seeking. When you or I are having a practical conversation, the goal is a solution. When you and I are having an emotional conversation, the goal is empathy. And when you and I are having a social conversation, if we're talking about politics or we're talking about religion or we're talking about society, the goal is simply acknowledgement. I don't have to agree with you. You don't have to agree with me. I, I don't need you to say, "Oh, you know, by the way, I was wrong to vote for this person. I should have voted for your guy." What I need you to say is I need you to say, "I hear what you're saying is this person is important to you. And, and I might disagree a little bit, but I want to just acknowledge that they are important to you and that they play an important role in your life."

   12. MRMel Robbins16:39

       Now why would you wanna do that?

   13. CDCharles Duhigg16:41

       (laughs)

   14. MRMel Robbins16:41

       If... No, I'm, I'm, I'm asking this because again, as you're listening, this is not a conversation about what you believe. This is a conversation about how to communicate with people-

   15. CDCharles Duhigg16:51

       Absolutely.

   16. MRMel Robbins16:52

       ... when you have issues that you do not agree on. I think one of the interesting things about your work, Charles, is that when I was doing an even deeper dive into it, the single biggest criticism of all of the research that you're about to teach us about communicating and connecting with people, the single biggest criticism that people have is, "How dare you tell me that I have to acknowledge a point of view that I diabolically oppose. I will not, I cannot do that. You are placated. You're trying to convince me to agree with somebody." People's inability to even do this step of saying without seeking to understand why somebody believes what they believe, there is no connection. And so I was excited to talk to you because there are people in my life that I value who I have gotten to the point with where I literally, like, "I just can't talk to you about this."

   17. CDCharles Duhigg17:54

       So let's talk about how to do that because-

   18. MRMel Robbins17:55

       And I'm sure they probably feel the same way about me.

   19. CDCharles Duhigg17:57

       A- and you're right. We are living in a more polarized time. There is no question.

   20. MRMel Robbins18:00

       What does the research show?

   21. CDCharles Duhigg18:01

       The research shows absolutely that, that people shy away from conversations, but there's a way around this.

   22. MRMel Robbins18:06

       Okay.

   23. CDCharles Duhigg18:07

       And let's take you as an example. So,

5. 18:08 – 23:24

   A Step-by-Step Guide to Difficult Conversations

   1. CDCharles Duhigg18:08

      so tell me a little bit about the conversations that you, that you are avoiding with a family member. Like give me the di- the outlines of it and we can-

   2. MRMel Robbins18:17

      Yeah. We just have different beliefs when it comes to certain issues, and what happens is if... In the past when I've tried to engage-There's an emotional reaction. There's a yelling, "You don't understand. We're not doing it. You're not here..." And then there's such a flooding of emotion, or there is almost like a ba-ba-ba-ba-ba, the words are coming at you.

   3. CDCharles Duhigg18:44

      Right.

   4. MRMel Robbins18:44

      Like, everything's an attack. And so, like a lot of people, you get to the point where you're just like, "I, I'm just not..." It's easier to avoid the conversation, even though I don't want to, because there's this distance between us because we can't actually talk about these things.

   5. CDCharles Duhigg19:04

      So let me tell you how to get around that.

   6. MRMel Robbins19:06

      Okay.

   7. CDCharles Duhigg19:06

      Because one of the things, and this is the second big skill of the best communicators, is that they ask more questions. In fact, one of the things that we know is that the best communicators ask 10 to 20 times as many questions as the average person.

   8. MRMel Robbins19:20

      10 to 20 times?

   9. CDCharles Duhigg19:21

      10 to 20 times. But they're asking a specific kind of question, what's known within psychology as a deep question.

   10. MRMel Robbins19:26

       Okay. What is, what is a deep question?

   11. CDCharles Duhigg19:27

       A deep question is something that asks me about my values or my beliefs or my experiences. So how does this apply to, to your conversation with a relative? Let's, let's role play it. Is that okay to, to role play?

   12. MRMel Robbins19:36

       Sure.

   13. CDCharles Duhigg19:36

       Okay. So, so you be, you be the, um, the angry relative, right?

   14. MRMel Robbins19:42

       (laughs)

   15. CDCharles Duhigg19:42

       I'll be the, I'll be the one who's trying to break through a little bit. So let's say you think-

   16. MRMel Robbins19:47

       Yes.

   17. CDCharles Duhigg19:47

       ... that Martians are better than people from Venus.

   18. MRMel Robbins19:50

       Okay.

   19. CDCharles Duhigg19:50

       I think people from Venus are better than Mar- Martians.

   20. MRMel Robbins19:53

       Okay.

   21. CDCharles Duhigg19:53

       Right? Right? Okay, so-

   22. MRMel Robbins19:54

       Something ridiculous.

   23. CDCharles Duhigg19:55

       Yeah, something ridiculous.

   24. MRMel Robbins19:56

       Yes, okay.

   25. CDCharles Duhigg19:56

       So, so Mel, Mel, tell me, um, you know, I saw that there was, uh, some interesting news on Mars and Venus the other day.

   26. MRMel Robbins20:01

       Mm.

   27. CDCharles Duhigg20:01

       Like, uh, what, what do you think about that? How do, what?

   28. MRMel Robbins20:04

       Well, any idiot can see that, you know, the people, the Martians on Venus are way better the ones on Mars, Charles.

   29. CDCharles Duhigg20:10

       (laughs)

   30. MRMel Robbins20:10

       I mean, come on. Didn't you see it on the news?
6. 23:24 – 40:51

   How You Can Turn Arguments Into Deeper Connection

   1. CDCharles Duhigg23:24

      to them.

   2. MRMel Robbins23:25

      Do you think we've gotten to a point, though, where people would rather be right about their beliefs than really try to stay connected to people?

   3. CDCharles Duhigg23:39

      I think we live in a society where, right now, people are telling us that being right is more important than being connected.

   4. MRMel Robbins23:48

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CDCharles Duhigg23:49

      And we are seeing the wages of that sin, right? We see it in our politics. We see it in our daily life. We see it in the news. When we prioritize being right over being good neighbors, we can walk down a really dangerous road. And that doesn't mean that we should give up on the things that we believe in, right? If I believe in something, I believe I'm right and I believe you're wrong, I'm gonna work hard to help you see the world the same way that I do. Maybe I'll even convince you that I'm right. But that's not my goal. My goal is to understand you and to let you understand me because then we can live alongside each other peacefully.

   6. MRMel Robbins24:29

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CDCharles Duhigg24:29

      We can build a community and a society together.That's what matters.

   8. MRMel Robbins24:35

      Well, you know, one of the things that I saw over and over in the inbox is people talking about how the current state of the world is tearing their families apart. In fact, I want to read you a question, uh, from a listener, Megan. "My Democratic kids and nephew believe that my Republican mother and sister and brother-in-law's views are, quote, 'unforgivable.' They want me to intervene, forget the politics of it." And I believe that's a difficult thing for people to say right now because everything is at a boiling point.

   9. CDCharles Duhigg25:09

      Absolutely.

   10. MRMel Robbins25:10

       And every issue feels like it's the highest stakes, and so it is hard for people to just forget about the politics. That's a very convenient thing to say, right? Megan writes, "So I believe in family first. How do I navigate this mess?"

   11. CDCharles Duhigg25:27

       Okay, so let's, let's talk about the three skills that we just learned, right?

   12. MRMel Robbins25:30

       Okay.

   13. CDCharles Duhigg25:30

       Number one, try and figure out what kind of conversation is happening. Is this a practical conversation, an emotional conversation, or a social conversation?

   14. MRMel Robbins25:37

       Well, how do we know the difference? 'Cause, 'cause this is like one of those conversations that I don't wanna get in the middle of this, like, cat fight. I don't wanna be the family mediator all the time. I don't wanna go to that family, like, you know, barbecue-

   15. CDCharles Duhigg25:49

       Right, right.

   16. MRMel Robbins25:50

       ... where everybody's simmering and whispering to the people that believe the same things.

   17. CDCharles Duhigg25:54

       So let's talk about the conversation with our kids first.

   18. MRMel Robbins25:56

       Okay.

   19. CDCharles Duhigg25:56

       Right? Because we're gonna bring them together eventually, but first, we're gonna talk to the kids. The... Here's what I would ask. You have said that you think that their opinions are unforgivable, so I wanna understand if, if this is something that really affects you emotionally or if this is just, you think it's the wrong choice for the, for society and we should move in a different direction.

   20. MRMel Robbins26:17

       Hmm.

   21. CDCharles Duhigg26:17

       It's kind of a practical question. So let me ask you, and this is the second skill. Let me ask you a deep question. There's lots of things that your grandmother does that you probably don't approve of, but this issue seems to really be on your mind. Tell me why. What does this issue mean to you? Why is this important? Because what you're doing at that moment with your kids is you're saying, "I'm asking you a deep question. Tell me why this matters to you. What do you need to get out of this conversation that makes you feel like the world is a better place?" The person is going to answer in a way that tells me what frame of mind they're in.

   22. MRMel Robbins26:56

       Okay.

   23. CDCharles Duhigg26:56

       If they're in an emotional frame of mind, a practical frame of mind, a social frame of mind. They teach teachers how to do this by telling them, "If a student comes up and wants to talk to you, you should start the conversation by saying, 'Do you wanna be helped, do you wanna be hugged, or do you wanna be heard?'" So let's say that they were to-

   24. MRMel Robbins27:12

       But what do you do if they say heard? Because I think if somebody's already using language, "It's unforgivable," like, "I don't even know who you are anymore"-

   25. CDCharles Duhigg27:19

       Yeah.

   26. MRMel Robbins27:19

       ... "we can't talk about this stuff, how could you possibly believe that?" That there is a deep-seated desire that the other person actually changes their point of view, right? Because without changing your point of view, I believe that you and I cannot connect. Do you see what I mean? Like, that's what that word says to me in Megan's question.

   27. CDCharles Duhigg27:46

       S- so, so let m- I agree, but let me adjust it a little bit because I don't think that I necessarily need you to change 100% to how I see the world.

   28. MRMel Robbins27:54

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CDCharles Duhigg27:55

       I think that I need you to acknowledge how I see the world and that it's valid, right?

   30. MRMel Robbins27:59

       Okay.
7. 40:51 – 54:05

   The 3 Rules to a Productive Conversation

   1. MRMel Robbins40:52

      (exhales)

   2. CDCharles Duhigg40:52

      Yeah. There's three rules that the research says we should do when we are going to have an argument with someone. And arguments can be really healthy. I'm sure you argue with your husband sometimes, right? I argue with my wife. Sometimes we argue with our best friends. That arguing is because we care about something and because we want them to understand what we care about. So the argument itself is not necessarily a problem. It's when we have the argument incorrectly-

   3. MRMel Robbins41:16

      Okay.

   4. CDCharles Duhigg41:16

      ... that it can b- can become toxic.

   5. MRMel Robbins41:18

      Okay.

   6. CDCharles Duhigg41:18

      So here's the three rules. Number one, you and I... Okay, Dad got divorced and I wanna talk to him about it, and I know it's gonna be a, a big, like, beat-down argument.

   7. MRMel Robbins41:27

      Oh, yeah. 'Cause he's got, now got this new person.

   8. CDCharles Duhigg41:29

      Exactly.

   9. MRMel Robbins41:29

      He has a whole new life.

   10. CDCharles Duhigg41:30

       Okay.

   11. MRMel Robbins41:30

       He does not spend time with us, like the whole thing.

   12. CDCharles Duhigg41:33

       Step one, I'm gonna start that conversation by acknowledging that this might be uncomfortable. I'm gonna say to you, "Dad, I wanna talk to you about something, and let me just say at the outset, I don't think this is gonna necessarily be an easy conversation and I don't... I think that we're gonna disagree with each other, but I want you to know that my relationship with you is important enough that I wanna have this conversation and I wanna understand why you're making the choices you're making and I want you to understand how I see them. But it, it might be a c- it might be a little uncomfortable, might be a little awkward, but that's okay, 'cause it's important enough to me to have the conversation."

   13. MRMel Robbins42:08

       Why would you tell him it's gonna be a hard conver- like, to me... 'Cause as you're saying that to me-

   14. CDCharles Duhigg42:12

       Yeah?

   15. MRMel Robbins42:13

       ... and I'm thinking about being the dad, I'm like, "I don't wanna have a hard conversation with you. I'd rather just not talk about this-"

   16. CDCharles Duhigg42:19

       S-

   17. MRMel Robbins42:20

       "... and pretend everything's okay." You see what I'm saying?

   18. CDCharles Duhigg42:21

       But-

   19. MRMel Robbins42:21

       Why does this work based on the research?

   20. CDCharles Duhigg42:23

       Wha- what the research tells us is that when I acknowledge the discomfort, it starts to lessen it, right? All of a sudden... Like, imagine if you're talking to someone and you say, "Hey, look. I gotta give you some bad news," right? That... And then you give them bad news. That doesn't mean that the bad news is any less bad, but it actually means that it's easier to hear because someone's prepared for it.The thing that makes us avoid conversations is anxiety about the unknown. "I'm gonna bring up this issue with Mel, and I don't know how she's gonna respond. I'm gonna talk to my dad about his new girlfriend, and I don't know if he's gonna fly off the handle or if he's gonna, gonna tell me all these intimate details I don't want to know about my dad." Right? So, the way that I make that conversation easier is I start it by saying, "This might be awkward," but then, then I do the second step.

   21. MRMel Robbins43:08

       Okay.

   22. CDCharles Duhigg43:09

       Which is, I announce my goal for this conversation, and I ask you what your goal is.

   23. MRMel Robbins43:15

       Okay.

   24. CDCharles Duhigg43:16

       And I'm gonna tell you what I want out of this conversation, and I'm gonna ask you what you want out of this conversation. And the reason why that's really important is because it helps us stay focused on what matters and not get distracted by all the fights we could have. And oftentimes, that goal that I'm saying is a goal that we share, right? If I say to you, "Dad, I want to talk about this. I know it's gonna be awkward, but our relationship is so important to me that I want to understand, and I want you to understand how I see the world." What I'm saying is my goal here is to preserve our relationship.

   25. MRMel Robbins43:48

       So, let's take the example of dad-

   26. CDCharles Duhigg43:50

       Mm-hmm.

   27. MRMel Robbins43:50

       ... and mom get divorced. Dad now has brand new girlfriend, whole new lease on life. The girlfriend is moseying in. You don't even recognize your father. You're mad about the way the girlfriend's taking control of everything. How do you start that conversation with your father?

   28. CDCharles Duhigg44:07

       So dad, I want, I want to talk to you about something that's been bothering me for a little while. And, and this might be a little bit of an awkward conversation, and I just want to acknowledge that and say it's okay 'cause what's most important to me-

   29. MRMel Robbins44:19

       Is this about Cindy?

   30. CDCharles Duhigg44:20

       I- yes, it's about Cindy, but it's actually about you and me. Like, I want... Our relationship is so important to me. I want to figure out... I want to understand what's going on in your life, but I also want you to understand how I see the world because my goal here is that I really... You're my dad. Like, I want, I want this relationship to be as strong as it, as it was before, when you... before the divorce. And let me ask you, before we get into it, if we're gonna talk about Cindy, what, what do you want? Like, what do you want me to carry away? What do you... What's important to you that I, that I understand about your relationship with Cindy?
8. 54:05 – 57:17

   Why The Little Things Hurt So Much

   1. CDCharles Duhigg54:05

      want to have.

   2. MRMel Robbins54:06

      You know, Charles, a lot of listeners wrote in with questions about how do you talk to people in your life about the smaller stuff? Like, you know, "We got the dog 'cause you wanted the dog, but now I'm taking care of the dog."

   3. CDCharles Duhigg54:17

      Right.

   4. MRMel Robbins54:17

      "You don't pick up after yourself. I'm on a Zoom call. You're talking loudly in the background." Like, how do you use these tools to bring up the small things that actually start to become really irritating?

   5. CDCharles Duhigg54:30

      Yeah. So, I think the first thing to do is to help the other person understand if this is a small thing or a big thing.

   6. MRMel Robbins54:36

      Hm.

   7. CDCharles Duhigg54:36

      Right? So, yeah, you never walk the dog. That seems like a small thing, but to me, that actually means that you see my time as less valuable than your time.

   8. MRMel Robbins54:46

      Hm.

   9. CDCharles Duhigg54:46

      Right? It, this isn't actually a practical question about who should walk the dog. This is an emotional question that I, I feel like it's disrespectful to just assume that I'm gonna walk the dog when it's your dog.

   10. MRMel Robbins54:56

       Hm.

   11. CDCharles Duhigg54:57

       ... now, suddenly, we're talking about something that's real, but it's probably not just about the dog. This is probably something that exists in many parts of our relationship, and now we're getting it on the table and we're, we're flushing it out. If there's something that bothers you and you say, "Oh, it's such a small thing," if it was a small thing, it wouldn't bother you that much.

   12. MRMel Robbins55:15

       Mm.

   13. CDCharles Duhigg55:16

       Right? The, I don't-

   14. MRMel Robbins55:19

       Good point.

   15. CDCharles Duhigg55:20

       Yeah. How, how my wife turns on her turn signal is a really small thing. It really doesn't bother me that much. She does it differently than me. She t- turns on the turn signal a lot earlier than I do, but it's not a big deal. It doesn't really bother me. On the other hand, if there is something that is bothering me, it's not a small thing. The thing I'm focused on might be small, but there's an underlying reason under the reason that y- I have to get onto the table, and that means I have to have a conversation with myself sometimes. I have to sit down and I have to say, "Why is this bothering me so much? What's really going on here? How do I explain this to my husband why it bugs me so much that I have to walk the dog, which doesn't seem like a big deal?" That's what relationships are.

   16. MRMel Robbins56:03

       It's so good, 'cause every time Chris and I have one of those small things that starts to simmer, it's the same thing underneath.

   17. CDCharles Duhigg56:12

       Yeah.

   18. MRMel Robbins56:12

       Like, "You don't value my time, or you think my job is to clean up after you and do all this stuff."

   19. CDCharles Duhigg56:17

       That's exactly right.

   20. MRMel Robbins56:18

       And, "I assume you don't want me to feel that way, so how can we get on the same page here about this?"

   21. CDCharles Duhigg56:25

       And it might very well be that Chris says, "Oh, I, I do value your time. I didn't even, I didn't even realize that you were seeing this issue about dog walking in this broader context. Like, now that I understand-"

   22. MRMel Robbins56:37

       Right.

   23. CDCharles Duhigg56:37

       "... what the dog walking represents to you, l- l- l- I'll walk the dog." Like, th- this isn't, this isn't-

   24. MRMel Robbins56:42

       This is legit an issue in my marriage.

   25. CDCharles Duhigg56:44

       Yeah. (laughs)

   26. MRMel Robbins56:44

       And by the way, I'm the bad one.

   27. CDCharles Duhigg56:46

       (laughs)

   28. MRMel Robbins56:46

       Chris is the one who didn't want an ex- another dog. He's the one who's taking care of them. And I know that this is an issue, and because I wanna stay connected and because we've had a conversation about it and I know the deeper issue is about feeling valued, that I make more of an effort, because it doesn't matter that much to me who's doing what.

   29. CDCharles Duhigg57:07

       Exactly.

   30. MRMel Robbins57:07

       But that's why it always (laughs) falls to Chris.
9. 57:17 – 1:00:02

   How to Have The Conversation You’re Avoiding Right Now

   1. CDCharles Duhigg57:17

      it.

   2. MRMel Robbins57:17

      Oh, it's so true. Charles, I'm curious, what's one conversation you need to have right now that you're not having? And I'm gonna invite you as you're listening and spending time with Charles and I, to answer that for yourself too. One conversation you need to have right now that you're not having.

   3. CDCharles Duhigg57:34

      So, I'll answer that in two ways, if it's okay.

   4. MRMel Robbins57:35

      Yeah.

   5. CDCharles Duhigg57:36

      The first is, m- my dad passed away about seven years ago.

   6. MRMel Robbins57:40

      Mm.

   7. CDCharles Duhigg57:40

      And anyone who's lost a parent knows what happens afterwards, which is, you go to the funeral and then you come back to work and people say, "Oh, where were you next, last week." And you say, "Oh, my dad passed away." And they say, "My condolences. I'm so sorry," and then they go on to something else. And in that moment, when that happened to me after I came back to New York from the funeral that was in New Mexico where I grew up, if somebody had said to me, "Oh, I'm so sorry. What, what was your dad like? Like, tell me about him."

   8. MRMel Robbins58:12

      Mm.

   9. CDCharles Duhigg58:13

      I would have loved that. Right? Because it's all I'd been thinking about for the last three weeks, is who my dad was and what my relationship was to him. It's, it was the most biggest thing in my mind. What, what the funeral was like, what the, how the, how the eulogies made me feel. For someone just to ask that question would have been so powerful. And so, one of the conversations that I don't have enough, that I need to have, is that when somebody expresses what they're feeling, if s- when somebody expresses a vulnerability, when someone tells you that something's going on in their life, and we shy away from it because we don't want to say the wrong thing, or we're worried that it's gonna be awkward, or we don't know what we'll say next, we should lean into that conversation. And all we have to do is just ask a question. "What was your dad like? Tell me about him." That's the first kind of conversation that I need to have more of. And the second kind of conversation is, I need to have more conversations with myself. We think about conversations as something that happen with other people, but some of the most important conversations, some of the prerequisites to having those really powerful conversations we talked about, is having a conversation with myself to understand what I want-

   10. MRMel Robbins59:24

       Mm.

   11. CDCharles Duhigg59:24

       ... what I need, what my goal in talking to my dad or to my, my dad's girlfriend, what my goal actually is. 'Cause oftentimes, we just plow into them without, without thinking about it ahead of time. But if we stop and we think, "I wanna have a conversation with myself about why this bothers me so much," that's when suddenly we can connect with anyone and we can do anything.

   12. MRMel Robbins59:54

       What an answer.

   13. CDCharles Duhigg59:55

       (laughs)

   14. MRMel Robbins59:56

       No, seriously.

   15. CDCharles Duhigg59:57

       Thank you.

   16. MRMel Robbins59:58

       Absolutely beautiful and life-changing.

10. 1:00:02 – 1:03:15

    Anyone Can Be a “Super Communicator”

    1. MRMel Robbins1:00:02

       Um, what are your parting words?

    2. CDCharles Duhigg1:00:08

       You know, when I started writing this book, I thought that the best communicators, super communicators, that they were people who had been born with something special, right? They had the gift of the gab, or they were extroverts, or they were really confident. And what I've learned through the research is that that's not true at all. In fact, if you talk to the best conversationalists, the best communicators, what they'll tell you inevitably is that there was a time when they were terrible at it. They'll say things like, "I had real trouble making friends in high school. I had to study how kids talked to each other. My parents got divorced when I was young and I had to be the peacemaker between them." The most important idea that I've learned is that anyone can become a super communicator, anyone can be great at communicating, anyone can connect with anyone else.

    3. NANarrator1:00:58

       The key is, you simply need to want to-

    4. MRMel Robbins1:01:01

       Mm-hmm.

    5. NANarrator1:01:01

       ... and to practice the skills to make it happen. And if you do that, your brain will make them into habits, and you will be able to connect with anyone that you want to.

    6. MRMel Robbins1:01:11

       You are such a gift. Charles Duhigg, thank you, thank you, thank you for being here. Thank you for teaching us everything that you taught us today. Thank you for sharing all this research. I can think of three conversations I need to have. I am sending this episode to everybody in my contact list, because I do believe with my whole heart that everything that you just taught us today and shared with us will help us connect with people, will help us bridge the divide, will help us influence the way that people think about topics where we disagree. And for that, I will be forever grateful.

    7. NANarrator1:01:54

       Thank you so much. And thank you for everything you do. This has been such a treat for me.

    8. MRMel Robbins1:01:58

       Oh my gosh. Well, thank you. And I also wanna thank you. Thank you for taking the time to listen to this conversation, to really lean into it. Thank you for sharing it with people that you care about. This is the perfect thing to share with somebody that you need (laughs) to have a conversation with. And in case nobody else tells you, I also wanted to say, I love you, I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And everything that you learn today and the skills that you can build and the tools that you can use out of this research and this conversation will absolutely help you do that, because staying connected to people that you care about is part of creating a better life. All righty, I will see you in the very next episode. I'll be waiting to welcome you in the moment you hit play. One more thing. I know you're thinking, "Oh my god, Mel, I wanna watch more." Um, do me a favor. First, hit subscribe, because that tells me you love this kind of content. And it also supports me in being able to bring you all of this inspiration and these research-backed strategies every single day. So just hit subscribe. Please, please, please. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And also, I know you probably want some more inspiration, something beautiful to watch, so check out this video next. I picked it for you. I know you're gonna enjoy it.

Episode duration: 1:03:15