How to Talk to Difficult People: Proven Strategies to Stop Arguments & Feel Connected Again

Charles Duhigg 0:00 The most toxic thing that happens in a relationship is what's known as kitchen sinking.

Mel Robbins 0:05 Okay. What's kitchen sinking?

Charles Duhigg 0:06 Kitchen sinking is when we start fighting about one thing, and suddenly, we're fighting about everything. We can see what's happening inside your brain as you're having a conversation.

Mel Robbins 0:12 Ooh.

Charles Duhigg 0:12 And what they said is...

Mel Robbins 0:14 You're at a standoff. One word turns into a lecture. One look, next thing you know you're arguing. And now, you're stuck. How do you talk to your family when you don't agree? When it's not just a difference of opinion, it's a crack in your relationship? Well, that's why I have brought in a world-class heavyweight when it comes to this issue. I'm talking about none other than Charles Duhigg. He's a Pulitzer Prize-winning, three times New York Times best-selling author, world-renowned researcher on the topic of how to connect and communicate with people. His work and research changed my life. I have cited his research in two of my best-selling books. I've shared his research on stages around the world. Charles' most recent book, Super Communicators, cracked something open in me, and it's gonna do the same for you. Charles is gonna teach you how to finally feel understood in your family, in your marriage, in your friendships, at work, in your life.

Charles Duhigg 1:11 There's things that we don't want to talk about with, with our spouses, with our siblings, with our coworkers. And the thing that we know-know is that if you have the right skills, you can connect with anyone.

Mel Robbins 1:23 Really?

Charles Duhigg 1:23 The best communicators ask 10 to 20 times as many questions as the average person.

Mel Robbins 1:28 10 to 20 times?

Charles Duhigg 1:29 10 to 20 times. But they're asking a specific kind of question. Conversations can change the world. The right conversation at the right moment with your dad can change your relationship with him e- entirely. The right conversation at the right moment with someone you're dating makes you fall in love. Anyone can connect with anyone else. The key is...

Mel Robbins 1:51 Oh, my God. Charles Duhigg, I cannot believe that you are here. I have been wanting you to be on the Mel Robbins Podcast since I started this. Thank you for jumping on a plane. Thank you for being here.

Charles Duhigg 2:03 Thank you for having me. This is such a treat. I have to say, I'm a huge fan of the show. I'm a huge fan of you. And so, a chance for us to get to sit down and talk to each other is just such an honor and a joy. Thank you.

Mel Robbins 2:12 Aw. Well, I hope you feel the same after-

Charles Duhigg 2:14 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 2:14 ... the conversation is over. I'm really excited about the conversation today because, uh, you are the person that I think could help us understand a topic that we're seeing in the inbox over and over and over again, which is this idea of feeling like you want to be closer to people that you have fundamental disagreements with-

Charles Duhigg 2:39 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 2:40 ... and friction. And so, I'd love to have you start by telling the person who is listening what could change about their life or their relationships if they take everything to heart that you're about to share with us, and they put it to use in their life, they put it to use with people that they want to be closer to. What could change, Charles?

Charles Duhigg 2:59 Well, I, I think, I think a lot of us have anxiety around our relationships, right? We have anxiety around conversations. There's things that we don't want to talk about with, with our spouses, with our siblings, with our coworkers. And the thing that we know-know is that if you have the right skills, you can connect with anyone. By the end of this episode, my goal is that people will say, "I'm not gonna be anxious about having that conversation anymore. I know that I can talk to my uncle. I can talk to my husband about that thing that I've been avoiding. I can talk to the guy at work who I disagree with, and we're actually, like, fighting with each other over what the budget should be. I know how to have that conversation in a way that, even if we disagree with each other, that we still feel connected to each other, that that conversation becomes a joy for me rather-"

Mel Robbins 3:42 Joy?

Charles Duhigg 3:42 "... than a source of anxiety."

Mel Robbins 3:43 Now, that's a high bar.

Charles Duhigg 3:43 I, it's-

Mel Robbins 3:44 Charles-

Charles Duhigg 3:44 It is a high bar.

Mel Robbins 3:45 ... bar.

Charles Duhigg 3:45 But I think we can hit it. I, I have believe in us.

Mel Robbins 3:47 Okay. I, I'm gonna lean in because I... And I'm gonna, I'm gonna actually give you, as you're listening, an invitation. I want you to think about one or two people in your life that you need to have a conversation, or there's some issue where you're just like, "I don't even know who you are anymore. I, I, I can't talk to you about this kind of thing." I want you to have them in mind. I can think of two people in my life right now that I'm gonna start the conversation with. One of them is related to what I do in my career, and there's a topic that I don't know how to bring up. And the other one is related to topics inside my family related to politics that it's just gotten to the point where we can't even talk to each other. And I don't want it to be that way.

Charles Duhigg 4:28 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 4:29 And, you know, I should say right off the bat, this is not going to be a conversation about what you believe. This is a conversation about how to talk to people where you have issues that you're just at this point where you're like, "Well, we just have to agree to disagree." And so, I want you to think of one or two people in your life that, "Boy, if I could actually be able to have a conversation with somebody and not have it tear us apart, or if I could have the ability to bring something up that I don't really know how to talk about, that's a really cool thing." And, you know, I gotta ask you, though, why should we learn how to have conversations when they only seem to create more emotion or frustration or distance or heartache with the people that you care about, especially when you disagree on the issue?

Charles Duhigg 5:20 Because those conversations are oftentimes the most powerful conversations of our life. If I think about, like, why my wife and I fell in love, it was not because we went on a great vacation together. It was not because we saw a fun movie together. It's because we had conversations where I said something real and meaningful and vulnerable, and she said something that was vulnerable and real, and it changed how I saw the world. That is what brings us together. So, I'm not saying that you have to have a conversation with your family about politics, right? Part of being a good conversationalist is choosing what you want to talk about. And when I get together with my, my neighbor, he's got a different political sign on his lawn than I have on my lawn. But politics takes up like 2% of our brains, right? What we mostly think about is the pothole in the street that we want fixed. So, that's what I'm gonna talk about, is the pothole. But with those people that you care about, with your parents, with your children...... the most important conversations weren't necessarily the easiest conversations.

Mel Robbins 6:24 Hmm.

Charles Duhigg 6:25 But they're the ones that you remember because they brought you closer together. They helped you understand how this person saw the world, and you helped them understand how you see the world. That is the greatest expression of what being a human is.

Mel Robbins 6:39 But I take it, based on the research in this book, you're gonna teach us how to do that even when we diabolically disagree-

Charles Duhigg 6:48 Absolutely.

Mel Robbins 6:48 ... with the political sign that is in the neighbor or the parents or the brother-in-law's yard.

Charles Duhigg 6:54 Absolutely. And it doesn't mean you have to avoid politics. In fact, you can have a conversation about politics and if you have the right skills to do so, even if you walk away still disagreeing with each other, you will feel closer to each other. You'll feel more connected. You'll feel like the conversation was a success. This is the thing about conversations. Conversations can change the world. The right conversation at the right moment with your dad can change your relationship with him e- entirely. The right conversation at the right moment with someone you're dating d- makes you fall in love. Conversations are incredibly powerful. But the way that we have them so that they are powerful is that we use skills, skills that we know, skills that we use with our best friends. We use those skills on everyone.

Mel Robbins 7:40 Ah.

Charles Duhigg 7:40 We become a super communicator.

Mel Robbins 7:43 Charles, first of all, I am such a huge fan. You have won the Pulitzer Prize for your reporting and writing. You wrote, in my opinion, the seminal book on the power of habits and research around habits.

Charles Duhigg 7:58 Thank you.

Mel Robbins 7:58 And you are such an important mind and writer, and now you have written this book, Super Communicators: How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection. Why the heck did you decide to write this book?

Charles Duhigg 8:12 So, it's a good question. For me, this actually started a couple years before I began working on the book with this pattern that I fell into with my wife, which I, I, I assume is probably familiar to you, probably to many people listening, which is, I would come home from work, and I was working at the New York Times at that point, and I would start complaining about my day and talking about, you know, my boss doesn't appreciate me and my coworkers don't realize what a genius I am. And my wife, very reasonably, would offer me some really good solutions. She would say something like, "Why don't you take your boss out to lunch? And you guys can get to know each other." And instead of being able to hear the good advice she was giving me, I would get even more upset. Right? And I would say, "Why aren't you supporting me? You're supposed to be on my side! You should be outraged on my behalf!" And she would get upset because I was attacking her for giving me good advice. Does this ever happen to you and your husband, that when one person wants to discuss an emotional problem, the other person offers solutions to it that are not necessarily appreciated?

Mel Robbins 9:07 It not only happens with my husband, because I'm your wife, I'm Miss-

Charles Duhigg 9:10 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 9:10 ..."Let Me Solve the Problem."

Charles Duhigg 9:11 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 9:11 But it happens all the time with my adult kids.

Charles Duhigg 9:15 Yes.

Mel Robbins 9:16 Where they're sharing about something and I will either see the other person's side-

Charles Duhigg 9:22 Absolutely.

Mel Robbins 9:22 ... which just pisses them off so much, "You're not hearing me! Can you just validate me?" Which is a helpful cue, but yeah, I, I, I think am the chief offender in my relationships of not actually listening the right way.

Charles Duhigg 9:38 You're right, it's about listening, but it's also about understanding what's actually happening in that conversation.

Mel Robbins 9:43 Okay.

Charles Duhigg 9:44 So after I had this issue with my wife, I went to all these researchers and I asked them, "Why do I keep making this mistake again and again and again?" And they said, "Well, we're really glad you showed up 'cause we're actually living through this golden age of understanding communication. For like the first time in human history, because of advances in neuroscience and, and neural imaging and data collection, we can see what's happening inside your brain as you're having a conversation."

Mel Robbins 10:04 Oh.

Charles Duhigg 10:04 And what they said is when you are having a discussion with your kids or I'm having a discussion with my wife, we think we know what that conversation is about. We think we're having a discussion about what happened today or how things are at work. But actually, we are having multiple different kinds of conversations all at the same time. And in general, these different kinds of conversations, they tend to fall into one of three buckets.

Mel Robbins 10:26 Okay, so there's three different types of conversations.

Charles Duhigg 10:27 There's three different types of conversations.

Mel Robbins 10:29 Okay.

Charles Duhigg 10:29 There's practical conversations, right? Where we're making plans together or we're solving problems. But then there's also emotional conversations where I tell you what I'm feeling and I don't want you to solve my feelings. I want you to empathize. I want you to validate me. I want you to tell me that, that it's gonna be okay, right? The same way that when your kids say to you, "Uh, Mom, I don't want you to solve this problem for me, I just want you to tell me that, like, it's gonna turn out all right," that's an emotional conversation. And then finally, the third type of conversation are social conversations.

Mel Robbins 10:58 What are those?

Charles Duhigg 10:59 That's about how we relate to each other, how we relate to society, the identities that are important to us, uh, I identify as a mom or a dad or a worker. And what's really fascinating is all three kinds of conversations are all equally legitimate. And, and in a discussion, we'll probably have all three conversations. But what's important is if you and I are not having the same kind of conversation at the same moment, we can't really hear each other. Not completely. And we certainly don't, won't feel connected to each other, which is exactly what happened with me and my wife, or you and your kids, right? I came home, I was having an emotional conversation. Your kids ha- are having an emotional conversation. My wife responds with a practical conversation. She says, "Here's a solution." But because we're having different kinds of conversations, I can't hear the good advice she's giving me. All I do is I get more upset. And so one of the big skills that super communicators have, the best communicators, is they're aware of these different kinds of conversations and they're asking themselves, "What kind of conversation does this person want to have with me right now? And how do I invite them to have the kind of conversation that's important to me?"

Mel Robbins 12:03 So, one of the first takeaways is, 'cause I think we can all relate to that feeling of being misunderstood, and that feeling of not being listened to, or that feeling of being talked at, is that if you're in that frustrating dynamic with somebody where you come home, you just wanna vent, you just want somebody to connect with you emotionally, validate how you're feeling 'cause you're letting off steam, that-... when you have a mismatch because your wife's like, "Oh, well I don't want you to be sad. Let me problem solve."

Charles Duhigg 12:30 Right.

Mel Robbins 12:30 And then you start to get frustrated and now you're actually causing tension with the two of you-

Charles Duhigg 12:36 Yes.

Mel Robbins 12:37 ... and both of you are like, "Well we're just trying to have a conversation." One of the first skills that you're teaching us is in those moments ask yourself what am I actually trying to do here?

Charles Duhigg 12:50 Absolutely.

Mel Robbins 12:50 Is it, am I trying to connect emotionally? Am I trying to handle logistics and I don't want to have some deep conversation? 'Cause that's another thing that happens is, you know, somebody will be handling deep, like they wanna just figure out the mechanics for the week and I want to have a conversation about feelings. And they're like, "I don't wanna talk about my feelings. Why do you always have to..." That's so helpful.

Charles Duhigg 13:09 It's absolute- And you're absolutely right. So the first skill, the first big takeaway is try and figure out what kind of conversation you want to have.

Mel Robbins 13:16 Gotcha.

Charles Duhigg 13:16 Right? Am I in an emotional mindset? Am I in a practical mindset? Am I in a social mindset? And next, let me ask you or pay attention to what kind of conversation you want to have. And so-

Mel Robbins 13:27 Well I don't care about you though, Charles.

Charles Duhigg 13:28 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 13:28 Like I just wanna, I just want... Like that's part of the problem is I literally don't care about you.

Charles Duhigg 13:34 See I don't, I don't-

Mel Robbins 13:34 You know what I'm saying?

Charles Duhigg 13:35 I don't believe you.

Mel Robbins 13:36 I know that's true. (laughs)

Charles Duhigg 13:36 I think you do care, right? We, that's why we're having the conversations 'cause we care about the other person at least a little bit.

Mel Robbins 13:41 That's true. I guess when you come home, 'cause we can all relate to that feeling. You've had a really stressful day at work or school, right?

Charles Duhigg 13:48 Yep.

Mel Robbins 13:48 Or a stressful commute home. You walk in the door. You start venting. You just wanna sort of unwind and then now all of a sudden you are in a frustrating dynamic with somebody else.

Charles Duhigg 14:00 Yep.

Mel Robbins 14:00 And in that moment I actually don't care, right? About Chris', my husband's, feelings 'cause now I'm annoyed that I'm not getting what I wanted, which is the emotional release.

Charles Duhigg 14:13 And so what you can do at that moment is you can just announce, like I, I don't need you to solve this problem for me. I just need, I just need to vent. I just wanna tell you. Or Chris, Chris can ask you. Chris can say, "Okay, do you want, Mel, do you want me to, to like help you solve this problem or do you just need to get this off your chest?"

Mel Robbins 14:30 Yes. That is the best line in your book.

Charles Duhigg 14:31 It feels like, and it, and it's such a, such a relief when someone asks that, right? Because sometimes we haven't asked ourself. Sometimes we haven't taken the second to say like, "Oh, what do I actually want out of this conversation?" And it's really powerful when we give people a chance to do that.

Mel Robbins 14:46 Okay. So can we set the table on something?

Charles Duhigg 14:48 Sure.

Mel Robbins 14:48 'Cause I'm now thinking it makes sense to me there are logistics, right?

Charles Duhigg 14:52 Right.

Mel Robbins 14:52 It's all business.

Charles Duhigg 14:52 Right.

Mel Robbins 14:52 Let's just like figure this stuff out.

Charles Duhigg 14:54 Let's figure out where we're going on vacation, where, what are we having for dinner.

Mel Robbins 14:56 Yep.

Charles Duhigg 14:57 Yep.

Mel Robbins 14:57 There's emotional.

Charles Duhigg 14:59 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 14:59 I just need somebody to validate. I need the hug. I need to vent to somebody. And then there's social.

Charles Duhigg 15:04 Right.

Mel Robbins 15:05 I don't understand what social conversations are.

Charles Duhigg 15:07 So social conversations are actually the most frequent con- conversations we have.

Mel Robbins 15:11 Okay.

Charles Duhigg 15:11 And, and it's... A social conversation is when in a conversation you say, "You know, the way that I see this, as a mom, is I see this a little bit differently than you."

Mel Robbins 15:21 Mm.

Charles Duhigg 15:22 What you're doing is you're telling me who you are, how you see yourself. Or when we're saying, "Hey, you know, Jim was a little weird in that meeting. Like what do you think is going on with Jim? Like why wasn't he enthusiastic about this idea?" That's a social conversation.

Mel Robbins 15:34 And I'm assuming that most of the hot topics, whether it's politics or it's religion or it's issues that we see in the news or opinions about family members, that those are social conversations-

Charles Duhigg 15:46 Those are social conversations, absolutely.

Mel Robbins 15:48 ... gone way wrong.

Charles Duhigg 15:48 Absolutely. Okay. So let's talk about how to have those conversations a little bit better. And let me clarify for the three kinds of conversations they all have something different that we're seeking. When you or I are having a practical conversation, the goal is a solution. When you and I are having an emotional conversation, the goal is empathy. And when you and I are having a social conversation, if we're talking about politics or we're talking about religion or we're talking about society, the goal is simply acknowledgement. I don't have to agree with you. You don't have to agree with me. I, I don't need you to say, "Oh, you know, by the way, I was wrong to vote for this person. I should have voted for your guy." What I need you to say is I need you to say, "I hear what you're saying is this person is important to you. And, and I might disagree a little bit, but I want to just acknowledge that they are important to you and that they play an important role in your life."

Mel Robbins 16:39 Now why would you wanna do that?

Charles Duhigg 16:41 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 16:41 If... No, I'm, I'm, I'm asking this because again, as you're listening, this is not a conversation about what you believe. This is a conversation about how to communicate with people-

Charles Duhigg 16:51 Absolutely.

Mel Robbins 16:52 ... when you have issues that you do not agree on. I think one of the interesting things about your work, Charles, is that when I was doing an even deeper dive into it, the single biggest criticism of all of the research that you're about to teach us about communicating and connecting with people, the single biggest criticism that people have is, "How dare you tell me that I have to acknowledge a point of view that I diabolically oppose. I will not, I cannot do that. You are placated. You're trying to convince me to agree with somebody." People's inability to even do this step of saying without seeking to understand why somebody believes what they believe, there is no connection. And so I was excited to talk to you because there are people in my life that I value who I have gotten to the point with where I literally, like, "I just can't talk to you about this."

Charles Duhigg 17:54 So let's talk about how to do that because-

Mel Robbins 17:55 And I'm sure they probably feel the same way about me.

Charles Duhigg 17:57 A- and you're right. We are living in a more polarized time. There is no question.

Mel Robbins 18:00 What does the research show?

Charles Duhigg 18:01 The research shows absolutely that, that people shy away from conversations, but there's a way around this.

Mel Robbins 18:06 Okay.

Charles Duhigg 18:07 And let's take you as an example. So,

Charles Duhigg 18:08 so tell me a little bit about the conversations that you, that you are avoiding with a family member. Like give me the di- the outlines of it and we can-

Mel Robbins 18:17 Yeah. We just have different beliefs when it comes to certain issues, and what happens is if... In the past when I've tried to engage-There's an emotional reaction. There's a yelling, "You don't understand. We're not doing it. You're not here..." And then there's such a flooding of emotion, or there is almost like a ba-ba-ba-ba-ba, the words are coming at you.

Charles Duhigg 18:44 Right.

Mel Robbins 18:44 Like, everything's an attack. And so, like a lot of people, you get to the point where you're just like, "I, I'm just not..." It's easier to avoid the conversation, even though I don't want to, because there's this distance between us because we can't actually talk about these things.

Charles Duhigg 19:04 So let me tell you how to get around that.

Mel Robbins 19:06 Okay.

Charles Duhigg 19:06 Because one of the things, and this is the second big skill of the best communicators, is that they ask more questions. In fact, one of the things that we know is that the best communicators ask 10 to 20 times as many questions as the average person.

Mel Robbins 19:20 10 to 20 times?

Charles Duhigg 19:21 10 to 20 times. But they're asking a specific kind of question, what's known within psychology as a deep question.

Mel Robbins 19:26 Okay. What is, what is a deep question?

Charles Duhigg 19:27 A deep question is something that asks me about my values or my beliefs or my experiences. So how does this apply to, to your conversation with a relative? Let's, let's role play it. Is that okay to, to role play?

Mel Robbins 19:36 Sure.

Charles Duhigg 19:36 Okay. So, so you be, you be the, um, the angry relative, right?

Mel Robbins 19:42 (laughs)

Charles Duhigg 19:42 I'll be the, I'll be the one who's trying to break through a little bit. So let's say you think-

Mel Robbins 19:47 Yes.

Charles Duhigg 19:47 ... that Martians are better than people from Venus.

Mel Robbins 19:50 Okay.

Charles Duhigg 19:50 I think people from Venus are better than Mar- Martians.

Mel Robbins 19:53 Okay.

Charles Duhigg 19:53 Right? Right? Okay, so-

Mel Robbins 19:54 Something ridiculous.

Charles Duhigg 19:55 Yeah, something ridiculous.

Mel Robbins 19:56 Yes, okay.

Charles Duhigg 19:56 So, so Mel, Mel, tell me, um, you know, I saw that there was, uh, some interesting news on Mars and Venus the other day.

Mel Robbins 20:01 Mm.

Charles Duhigg 20:01 Like, uh, what, what do you think about that? How do, what?

Mel Robbins 20:04 Well, any idiot can see that, you know, the people, the Martians on Venus are way better the ones on Mars, Charles.

Charles Duhigg 20:10 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 20:10 I mean, come on. Didn't you see it on the news?

Charles Duhigg 20:13 So this is great, right? Because at that moment, what, I could do one of two things. The first is I could see this as an attack on my identity, right? This is, I could s- We're talking about other people. We're talking about society and how people see others, so it's a social conversation. And I could see this as an atta- and be like, "Well, you're, uh, Mel, you're, you're completely wrong. And not only that, but you're dumb, right? Because, like, clearly Mars is better than Venus. Let me give you all the reasons why." That's not gonna be a productive conversation. A better thing for me to do is to ask you a deep question. I'm just wondering, Mel, like, it seems like you really care about this topic. Like, what is it about Mars and Venus that, that seems so meaningful to you? Like, I'm just curious.

Mel Robbins 20:52 Well, you know, I- I just feel like Venus and, is, is more, like, kinda how I feel about things. I think Venus is the, the, the way to go because, I mean, haven't you heard how terrible Mars is and, and how Mars really screwed things up?

Charles Duhigg 21:08 So let me tell you what I'm about to do. So the, the first skill that I used is I asked you a deep question. I basically asked you why.

Mel Robbins 21:16 Yeah.

Charles Duhigg 21:16 Why is this important to you? How do you feel about this topic? The next thing I'm gonna do is after you've answered that question, I'm gonna repeat back what I heard you tell me. This is called, this is known as looping for understanding.

Mel Robbins 21:28 Okay.

Charles Duhigg 21:29 So Mel, what I hear you saying, and, and tell me if I'm getting this wrong, is that for you, Venus really represents something admirable and, and you've seen people go and they've built a new life on that planet, and you're someone who cares about self-improvement, and you care about, about people having agency to make the world a better place. And for you, Venus represents this really, really important virtue, and I totally understand that. And because that virtue is also really important to me. I see it a little bit in Mars, and I think we're a little bit different on that, but I think we actually agree about what space exploration means. It... Did, did I get that right? Am I hearing you correctly?

Mel Robbins 22:07 Yeah, except for the part about Mars.

Charles Duhigg 22:09 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 22:09 Mars has done everything wrong, and, you know, I don't see how they actually say the same thing because, you know, the things that I listen to about Venus are saying that Mars actually doesn't believe those things.

Charles Duhigg 22:22 I, I appreciate, I appreciate that, and I wanna understand how you see the world. I also wanna share with you how I see the world 'cause I just think it'll bring us closer together. And, and look, if we walk away from this conversation and we don't agree about Venus and Mars, that's okay. Like, my goal here is not to convince you you're wrong and I'm right. My goal here is to understand how you see the world, you, and speak in such a way that you can understand how I see the world. And stepping out of the conversation for a minute, the reason why that's so important is because if we understand each other, even if we disagree, even if we walk away and you think that Venus is the best and I think that Mars is the best and we think each other are kind of idiots for believing anything, uh, differently, as long as we have tried to understand each other, we will feel more connected to each other. And that connection is how we build a relationship. That's how we build a friendship. If you think about your best friends, you don't agree all the time with your best friends. But you still love them because you're connected

Charles Duhigg 23:24 to them.

Mel Robbins 23:25 Do you think we've gotten to a point, though, where people would rather be right about their beliefs than really try to stay connected to people?

Charles Duhigg 23:39 I think we live in a society where, right now, people are telling us that being right is more important than being connected.

Mel Robbins 23:48 Mm-hmm.

Charles Duhigg 23:49 And we are seeing the wages of that sin, right? We see it in our politics. We see it in our daily life. We see it in the news. When we prioritize being right over being good neighbors, we can walk down a really dangerous road. And that doesn't mean that we should give up on the things that we believe in, right? If I believe in something, I believe I'm right and I believe you're wrong, I'm gonna work hard to help you see the world the same way that I do. Maybe I'll even convince you that I'm right. But that's not my goal. My goal is to understand you and to let you understand me because then we can live alongside each other peacefully.

Mel Robbins 24:29 Mm-hmm.

Charles Duhigg 24:29 We can build a community and a society together.That's what matters.

Mel Robbins 24:35 Well, you know, one of the things that I saw over and over in the inbox is people talking about how the current state of the world is tearing their families apart. In fact, I want to read you a question, uh, from a listener, Megan. "My Democratic kids and nephew believe that my Republican mother and sister and brother-in-law's views are, quote, 'unforgivable.' They want me to intervene, forget the politics of it." And I believe that's a difficult thing for people to say right now because everything is at a boiling point.

Charles Duhigg 25:09 Absolutely.

Mel Robbins 25:10 And every issue feels like it's the highest stakes, and so it is hard for people to just forget about the politics. That's a very convenient thing to say, right? Megan writes, "So I believe in family first. How do I navigate this mess?"

Charles Duhigg 25:27 Okay, so let's, let's talk about the three skills that we just learned, right?

Mel Robbins 25:30 Okay.

Charles Duhigg 25:30 Number one, try and figure out what kind of conversation is happening. Is this a practical conversation, an emotional conversation, or a social conversation?

Mel Robbins 25:37 Well, how do we know the difference? 'Cause, 'cause this is like one of those conversations that I don't wanna get in the middle of this, like, cat fight. I don't wanna be the family mediator all the time. I don't wanna go to that family, like, you know, barbecue-

Charles Duhigg 25:49 Right, right.

Mel Robbins 25:50 ... where everybody's simmering and whispering to the people that believe the same things.

Charles Duhigg 25:54 So let's talk about the conversation with our kids first.

Mel Robbins 25:56 Okay.

Charles Duhigg 25:56 Right? Because we're gonna bring them together eventually, but first, we're gonna talk to the kids. The... Here's what I would ask. You have said that you think that their opinions are unforgivable, so I wanna understand if, if this is something that really affects you emotionally or if this is just, you think it's the wrong choice for the, for society and we should move in a different direction.

Mel Robbins 26:17 Hmm.

Charles Duhigg 26:17 It's kind of a practical question. So let me ask you, and this is the second skill. Let me ask you a deep question. There's lots of things that your grandmother does that you probably don't approve of, but this issue seems to really be on your mind. Tell me why. What does this issue mean to you? Why is this important? Because what you're doing at that moment with your kids is you're saying, "I'm asking you a deep question. Tell me why this matters to you. What do you need to get out of this conversation that makes you feel like the world is a better place?" The person is going to answer in a way that tells me what frame of mind they're in.

Mel Robbins 26:56 Okay.

Charles Duhigg 26:56 If they're in an emotional frame of mind, a practical frame of mind, a social frame of mind. They teach teachers how to do this by telling them, "If a student comes up and wants to talk to you, you should start the conversation by saying, 'Do you wanna be helped, do you wanna be hugged, or do you wanna be heard?'" So let's say that they were to-

Mel Robbins 27:12 But what do you do if they say heard? Because I think if somebody's already using language, "It's unforgivable," like, "I don't even know who you are anymore"-

Charles Duhigg 27:19 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 27:19 ... "we can't talk about this stuff, how could you possibly believe that?" That there is a deep-seated desire that the other person actually changes their point of view, right? Because without changing your point of view, I believe that you and I cannot connect. Do you see what I mean? Like, that's what that word says to me in Megan's question.

Charles Duhigg 27:46 S- so, so let m- I agree, but let me adjust it a little bit because I don't think that I necessarily need you to change 100% to how I see the world.

Mel Robbins 27:54 Mm-hmm.

Charles Duhigg 27:55 I think that I need you to acknowledge how I see the world and that it's valid, right?

Mel Robbins 27:59 Okay.

Charles Duhigg 27:59 So this brings us to the third skill. So what do we do when we're sitting down and, and they're saying either, you know, things that, that are offensive to me or they're saying that what they've said is unforgivable, I can't get along with them? We've done the first two skills. We've figured out what kind of conversation we're having. We've asked a deep question. Now we prove that we're listening because that thing that you just said, "I need you to change your mind," is not actually what most people feel. They think that they need the other person to change their mind, but what they actually need the other person to do is to prove to them that they are listening, that they want to understand.

Mel Robbins 28:32 Hmm.

Charles Duhigg 28:33 There's a technique for this known as looping for understanding.

Mel Robbins 28:35 Okay.

Charles Duhigg 28:36 Which... And it has three steps. Step one is that you ask a question, preferably a deep question, which we, which we already did. Step two, and we did this before, is that w- after you answer that question, I repeat back what I heard you say in my own words.

Mel Robbins 28:50 What was the first question that you asked that was the deep question again?

Charles Duhigg 28:53 So the deep question was, "This seems like it's really bothering you. Like, why, why is this so important to you? Why is what your grandmother says about X, why does it seem to bother you so much?"

Mel Robbins 29:03 Hmm.

Charles Duhigg 29:03 "Just tell me what, what this, what d- what does this mean to you?" That's the deep question.

Mel Robbins 29:06 Got it, okay.

Charles Duhigg 29:07 Your kids are gonna tell you, "Uh, Grandma's, you know, old and she's stuck in the past and she doesn't understand the new world."

Mel Robbins 29:16 Or-

Charles Duhigg 29:16 Good training.

Mel Robbins 29:16 ... "Yeah, I'm devastated 'cause she clearly does not accept me for who I am."

Charles Duhigg 29:20 Yeah. Oh, maybe that's it. Maybe that's it.

Mel Robbins 29:21 You know what I'm saying? Like, it's like-

Charles Duhigg 29:22 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 29:22 ... I think for a lot of people, there's this sense of, "How could you believe that and still see and love me? How could we possibly be connected if this is a core thing that I believe and you have an opinion that I personally believe is unforgivable?"

Charles Duhigg 29:40 Absolutely. Maybe we go to different churches. Maybe you don't accept my lifestyle.

Mel Robbins 29:44 Could be anything. Yeah.

Charles Duhigg 29:45 So I'm gonna ask why that's important, um, and when... And as you're answering that question, I'm gonna listen to figure out, are you using emotional words or are you using practical words or are you using social words?

Mel Robbins 29:55 I think most people, when you get down to it, probably use very, like, "La la la la," like, very emotional-

Charles Duhigg 30:01 That's exactly right.

Mel Robbins 30:01 ... because we are all very emotional about these things.

Charles Duhigg 30:03 Most of the time, most of the time, the thing that's in- interfering is the emotion. I've gotten two of the skills out of the way, right? I've asked you a deep question. I know that you're h- want to have an emotional conversation.

Mel Robbins 30:11 Yep.

Charles Duhigg 30:12 You need to have an emotional conversation. Then I'm gonna do this looping for understanding where the goal is to prove to you that I'm listening. "Mel, what I hear you saying is I hear you saying that it's really hard to spend time with your grandmother because she believes in a different way of the world working. She thinks that, that marriage should be... should go this way or that faith should go that way. And I, and I, uh, hear you saying that that hurts you."... because she's your grandmother, because you want to have a relationship with her. And that, and that when she pushes you away, it makes you feel, it makes you feel distant and bad about yourself. Okay, so that's step two of looping for understanding. I've repeated back what I heard you say. Step three is, now I ask you if I got it right. "Mel, d- did I hear you correctly? Am I..." Because at that moment when I ask you if I got it right, what I'm asking you for is permission to acknowledge that I was listening. To how-

Mel Robbins 31:06 Mm. I love that. "Did I get that right?"

Charles Duhigg 31:07 Yeah. "Did I get that right? Am I hearing you correctly? Did-"

Mel Robbins 31:09 God, that must be so hard to do though when you're having to repeat an opinion or belief that you think is diabolically opposed to yours. "Did I get that right?"

Charles Duhigg 31:21 It is, it's hard the first couple times. One of the wonderful things about the human brain and how the human brain has evolved is, if you think about it, communication is our superpower, right? It's the thing that sets us apart from every species. So our brain has evolved to be really, really good at communication. And as a result, when we practice things, we make them into habits very-

Mel Robbins 31:39 Mm.

Charles Duhigg 31:39 ... very quickly. So the first time that I say, you know, "Mel, what I hear you saying is that we should kill all puppies on Earth. And, and that-"

Mel Robbins 31:46 What?

Charles Duhigg 31:46 "... you believe that." (laughs) And th-

Mel Robbins 31:47 Now I'm like-

Charles Duhigg 31:48 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 31:48 ... "How could you believe that, Charles?"

Charles Duhigg 31:51 "But, but I, I hear that it's because you really care about cats. Di- did I get that correct? Am I, am I hearing you accurately?" Once I get in that habit, here's what's gonna happen. Once you believe that I am listening to you-

Mel Robbins 32:03 Yes.

Charles Duhigg 32:03 ... you're gonna become more likely to listen to me. "Grandma, what I hear you saying is that you don't approve of my lifestyle because you want me to grow up and to be in a stable relationship and to have children and to experience that joy, just like you felt, and you're worried that the choices I'm making means I'll never be in a committed... A- am I hearing you correctly? Did I get that right?" At that moment, what I'm doing is I'm asking you for permission to acknowledge that I was listening. You, and we can't even fight this, this is im- pr- hardwired into our neurology, when I prove to you that I've been listening to you-

Mel Robbins 32:36 Mm-hmm.

Charles Duhigg 32:36 ... you will automatically become more likely to listen to me in return. It's called social reciprocity. We can't fight it.

Mel Robbins 32:42 Social reciprocity.

Charles Duhigg 32:44 Yep.

Mel Robbins 32:44 And so this is what the science says.

Charles Duhigg 32:46 This is what the science says.

Mel Robbins 32:47 And what's interesting about, like, really dissecting this is that what I felt, we'll use the puppy example 'cause it's ridiculous, right?

Charles Duhigg 32:58 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 32:59 Is that the second you acknowledged that it's because I love cats, the kind of defensive stance that you have when you are opposed to somebody else drops.

Charles Duhigg 33:13 Absolutely.

Mel Robbins 33:14 And the other thing that I'm getting from this is that the grand irony of all of this is that as you were starting to ask the deep question, "Why does this bother you so much that your grandmother believes this?" What I started to hear is that why it bothers us is because we don't feel connected to or aligned with the people that we want to be connected and aligned with.

Charles Duhigg 33:38 Absolutely.

Mel Robbins 33:38 Is that-

Charles Duhigg 33:39 Absolutely. At the core of that, "Why does this bother you so much that your brother-in-law keeps saying this?" The deepest reason is because, "I wanna be close to my brother-in-law. He's my brother-in-law!" Right? Or, "I wanna come home for Thanksgiving, and I don't wanna, like, have the entire meal be tense, and I don't wanna, like, b- be waiting for, like, the wrong thing to be said. I wanna be able to relax."

Mel Robbins 34:00 Right, or rant about whatever. Yes.

Charles Duhigg 34:03 And so once I acknowledge that, once I, once you help me by asking me that deep question, once you help me understand, "What I actually want here is I don't want my brother-in-law to agree with me, I just want us to be able to live peacefully among each other and feel connected," then suddenly, all of a sudden, I can say, "You know what? Actually, I, I don't need him to vote for the same guy that I vote for. I just need him to understand that, that we have a difference of opinion, and that's okay, and we're gonna live our lives in different ways. But I'm not judging him, and he's not judging me."

Mel Robbins 34:35 You know, everyone says if you're, if you're not speaking out about this stuff all the time, then somehow you don't care about the issues.

Charles Duhigg 34:44 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 34:44 And the truth is, if you understand the research, anytime you're shouting your opinion, people aren't listening to you.

Charles Duhigg 34:52 In fact, there's study after study shows the more evidence that I give you, the more ingrained your opinion becomes.

Mel Robbins 35:00 I think this is really important if you're listening and you think that this is somehow a way to avoid being active in your community or to avoid addressing hard issues. It is so important to understand that the way that we have evolved at this point where we cannot talk about things, where we are so reactive, or we are so right, and you may be right about your opinion about whatever topic, and you probably are right about your opinion about whatever topic, but if your entire objective is to convince other people that they're wrong, you're actually creating a bigger divide.

Charles Duhigg 35:43 Absolutely.

Mel Robbins 35:44 So if you... So ironically, it's not just about staying close and connected to people. If you have any chance in hell of changing somebody's mind about a topic where you are morally opposed, the only chance you have based on the research, is this what you're telling us, Charles?

Charles Duhigg 36:00 Yeah. Absolutely.

Mel Robbins 36:00 Is to use these techniques to make the other person feel listened to and understood so that you open up the pathways in their brain to entertain a different point of view.

Charles Duhigg 36:13 That's exactly right. What, so here's the key thing that's happening is that nobody believes anything 100%. Right? E- e- whe- no matter what you are, politics, religion, sports, nobody says, "The Mets are the greatest team ever. They will always be the greatest team." If you get them in an honest frame of mind, they say, "Hey, the Mets are pretty good this year. But, like, two seasons ago, they were terrible." Right? And so-What we want is we wanna get to that softness. We wanna get to that moment-

Mel Robbins 36:44 Mm.

Charles Duhigg 36:44 ... when I'm willing to say, "Here's what I believe, but I acknowledge that there are gray areas here. And what I'm asking you is, you believe something different, but I want you to acknowledge that there are also gray areas. And in that gray areas, we can try, we can start to influence e- each other. The way that we get to those gray areas is by saying, 'I want to understand what you're saying. I wanna understand how you're s- seeing the world and I wanna speak in a way that you can understand what I'm saying.'"

Mel Robbins 37:10 Mm.

Charles Duhigg 37:10 "Because there's probably these gray areas that we agree on-"

Mel Robbins 37:13 Mm.

Charles Duhigg 37:13 "... so let's start there." That is a much, much more powerful way to change someone's mind than to say, "You know what? You're an idiot. You believe-"

Mel Robbins 37:22 (laughs)

Charles Duhigg 37:22 "You believe that about the Yankees? Like, I can't... Do you read? Are you illiterate?" That's never gonna change someone's mind.

Mel Robbins 37:28 Well, and here's the thing. I, what I love about this is you can have that opinion and use these tools to, A, stay connected to somebody, B, diffuse all the tension and emotion and the righteousness and the name-calling, and C, actually use science because you're actually keeping them open-minded to hear your side. And so if you have any chance of influencing other people, this is the way you do it.

Charles Duhigg 37:56 Absolutely.

Mel Robbins 37:57 What does the data and the research say about arguing?

Charles Duhigg 38:02 There are different ways of arguing.

Mel Robbins 38:04 Okay.

Charles Duhigg 38:05 And they can be toxic or can be productive. Oftentimes, when we're in an argument, that fight or flight instinct is going, and so my instinct is that I wanna control something, right? That it's just a totally natural human instinct that, like, when I feel threatened, I wanna find something to control. And the easiest thing to control is the person across the table from me, right? So I'm gonna try and control you in all kinds of ways. I'm gonna tell you what topics we can talk about. "I'm not gonna talk about that. I'm not gonna talk about your mother." Right? I, I'm, I, I'm gonna try and control the timing. "I only have five minutes for this conversation. Like, after five minutes, I'm taking off." I'm gonna try and control your emotions. "Oh, you're upset about that? You shouldn't be upset about that. That's, that's not something w- worthy being upset about." When I try and control you, you feel like I'm taking power from you.

Mel Robbins 38:51 Yes.

Charles Duhigg 38:52 So what do I need to do? Uh, 'cause I, I have this instinct to control, as do you. We need to find things that we can control together. This is what makes an argument a good argument.

Mel Robbins 39:02 Okay, give me an example.

Charles Duhigg 39:03 So first of all, we're gonna control, say, the, uh, the environment of it. We start fighting at 2:00 in the morning about, like, you know... And I say, "Look, this is really important. I, I think we need to work this through. Can we wait until 10:00 tomorrow and, like, both get a good night's sleep and we'll be well-rested and had some breakfast? Is it, is that okay?" Right? Now we're controlling the environment together.

Mel Robbins 39:24 And this is also a tactic you can use if somebody's doing the controlling arguing with you?

Charles Duhigg 39:28 Absolutely. Absolutely.

Mel Robbins 39:29 Yes. Okay.

Charles Duhigg 39:30 Uh, another tactic is that we can control the parameters of the argument. "Look, if it's okay, let's talk about where we're going for Thanksgiving. Le- I, I know that there's some issues with my mom and your mom and there's issues about money. Let's just set those aside for right now, if it's okay, and just focus on Thanksgiving, 'cause we need-"

Mel Robbins 39:47 Ah.

Charles Duhigg 39:47 "... to make a decision." Now we're controlling the boundaries of the argument together. And finally, there's some element of trying to control ourselves. If I have an instinct for s- for control, if I use that for self-control, then it makes me feel better, right? If I think to myself, "You know, I could really lay into him right now, but I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna. I'm gonna remember what I heard on Mel's podcast. I'm gonna ask a deep question. I'm gonna prove I'm listening," suddenly we feel better. We feel better about ourselves because we're controlling ourselves. We love exerting self-control. It feels good. It feels virtuous.

Mel Robbins 40:22 Yeah.

Charles Duhigg 40:23 And so instead of me trying to control you, "Mel, you gotta agree with me. We're not gonna talk about that-"

Mel Robbins 40:26 Yes.

Charles Duhigg 40:27 Instead, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna find stuff we can control together, and most importantly, I'm gonna say, "You know what? I'm the kind of person who can have a conversation like this without using that toxic voice. I'm gonna control myself and I'm gonna feel good about it."

Mel Robbins 40:39 Or what my family says to me, "Happy to have this conversation with you when you're not this emotional."

Charles Duhigg 40:47 (laughs) Right.

Mel Robbins 40:47 Then (yells) "No, no, no." Like, "Okay, you're right. You're right, you're right. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry."

Mel Robbins 40:52 (exhales)

Charles Duhigg 40:52 Yeah. There's three rules that the research says we should do when we are going to have an argument with someone. And arguments can be really healthy. I'm sure you argue with your husband sometimes, right? I argue with my wife. Sometimes we argue with our best friends. That arguing is because we care about something and because we want them to understand what we care about. So the argument itself is not necessarily a problem. It's when we have the argument incorrectly-

Mel Robbins 41:16 Okay.

Charles Duhigg 41:16 ... that it can b- can become toxic.

Mel Robbins 41:18 Okay.

Charles Duhigg 41:18 So here's the three rules. Number one, you and I... Okay, Dad got divorced and I wanna talk to him about it, and I know it's gonna be a, a big, like, beat-down argument.

Mel Robbins 41:27 Oh, yeah. 'Cause he's got, now got this new person.

Charles Duhigg 41:29 Exactly.

Mel Robbins 41:29 He has a whole new life.

Charles Duhigg 41:30 Okay.

Mel Robbins 41:30 He does not spend time with us, like the whole thing.

Charles Duhigg 41:33 Step one, I'm gonna start that conversation by acknowledging that this might be uncomfortable. I'm gonna say to you, "Dad, I wanna talk to you about something, and let me just say at the outset, I don't think this is gonna necessarily be an easy conversation and I don't... I think that we're gonna disagree with each other, but I want you to know that my relationship with you is important enough that I wanna have this conversation and I wanna understand why you're making the choices you're making and I want you to understand how I see them. But it, it might be a c- it might be a little uncomfortable, might be a little awkward, but that's okay, 'cause it's important enough to me to have the conversation."

Mel Robbins 42:08 Why would you tell him it's gonna be a hard conver- like, to me... 'Cause as you're saying that to me-

Charles Duhigg 42:12 Yeah?

Mel Robbins 42:13 ... and I'm thinking about being the dad, I'm like, "I don't wanna have a hard conversation with you. I'd rather just not talk about this-"

Charles Duhigg 42:19 S-

Mel Robbins 42:20 "... and pretend everything's okay." You see what I'm saying?

Charles Duhigg 42:21 But-

Mel Robbins 42:21 Why does this work based on the research?

Charles Duhigg 42:23 Wha- what the research tells us is that when I acknowledge the discomfort, it starts to lessen it, right? All of a sudden... Like, imagine if you're talking to someone and you say, "Hey, look. I gotta give you some bad news," right? That... And then you give them bad news. That doesn't mean that the bad news is any less bad, but it actually means that it's easier to hear because someone's prepared for it.The thing that makes us avoid conversations is anxiety about the unknown. "I'm gonna bring up this issue with Mel, and I don't know how she's gonna respond. I'm gonna talk to my dad about his new girlfriend, and I don't know if he's gonna fly off the handle or if he's gonna, gonna tell me all these intimate details I don't want to know about my dad." Right? So, the way that I make that conversation easier is I start it by saying, "This might be awkward," but then, then I do the second step.

Mel Robbins 43:08 Okay.

Charles Duhigg 43:09 Which is, I announce my goal for this conversation, and I ask you what your goal is.

Mel Robbins 43:15 Okay.

Charles Duhigg 43:16 And I'm gonna tell you what I want out of this conversation, and I'm gonna ask you what you want out of this conversation. And the reason why that's really important is because it helps us stay focused on what matters and not get distracted by all the fights we could have. And oftentimes, that goal that I'm saying is a goal that we share, right? If I say to you, "Dad, I want to talk about this. I know it's gonna be awkward, but our relationship is so important to me that I want to understand, and I want you to understand how I see the world." What I'm saying is my goal here is to preserve our relationship.

Mel Robbins 43:48 So, let's take the example of dad-

Charles Duhigg 43:50 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 43:50 ... and mom get divorced. Dad now has brand new girlfriend, whole new lease on life. The girlfriend is moseying in. You don't even recognize your father. You're mad about the way the girlfriend's taking control of everything. How do you start that conversation with your father?

Charles Duhigg 44:07 So dad, I want, I want to talk to you about something that's been bothering me for a little while. And, and this might be a little bit of an awkward conversation, and I just want to acknowledge that and say it's okay 'cause what's most important to me-

Mel Robbins 44:19 Is this about Cindy?

Charles Duhigg 44:20 I- yes, it's about Cindy, but it's actually about you and me. Like, I want... Our relationship is so important to me. I want to figure out... I want to understand what's going on in your life, but I also want you to understand how I see the world because my goal here is that I really... You're my dad. Like, I want, I want this relationship to be as strong as it, as it was before, when you... before the divorce. And let me ask you, before we get into it, if we're gonna talk about Cindy, what, what do you want? Like, what do you want me to carry away? What do you... What's important to you that I, that I understand about your relationship with Cindy?

Mel Robbins 44:58 Well, I, I want you guys to stop attacking her, and I want you to-

Charles Duhigg 45:00 Okay.

Mel Robbins 45:00 ... stop judging me, and I want you to, like, let me live my life.

Charles Duhigg 45:05 Perfect. So, now we know our goals, right? My goal is to-

Mel Robbins 45:08 But do you hear how my, like-

Charles Duhigg 45:09 Absolutely, absolutely. You're getting riled up, and that's okay. That's gonna... That's natural 'cause I already said we might get a... This might be a little bit awkward. I've given you permission. The fact that, that you're getting riled up, that I'm getting riled up, that doesn't mean the conversation's a failure. That means that the conversation's operating the way it's supposed to be, and I already said it might be a hard conversation.

Mel Robbins 45:27 But do you say anything about the emotion? Or do you-

Charles Duhigg 45:30 Of course, of course.

Mel Robbins 45:30 So, what are you saying?

Charles Duhigg 45:31 And at that moment, I, I'm gonna say, "Look, what I hear you saying..." I'm gonna do this Looping for Understanding. "Look, wha- what I hear you saying is, I hear you saying that you want me and Cindy to get along with each other, and, and that that's, that's really important to you. Am I getting that right? Am I hearing you correctly?"

Mel Robbins 45:48 Yes, and I'd like you guys to stop judging her. Like, she's really come in, and I'm much happier. And, you know, she's helping me do a bunch of things, and, you know, you guys are all just kind of like not accepting."

Charles Duhigg 45:57 I, I... What I hear you saying is that you're offended. You're offended by how we're treating your girlfriend. That, that you think that we're treating her like she's not a member of this family, and you believe that she is a member of this family. You care about her.

Mel Robbins 46:09 Exactly.

Charles Duhigg 46:10 Okay, so that... So, I hear that. Now, let me tell you from my perspective why, why I might have come across that way. My model for what a marriage should be was you and mom. And when you guys got divorced, it just, it kind of rocked my world. It made me question everything. And then for Cindy to come in like a replacement, it makes me worry that someday, someday I'll be married and my husband might divorce me and he'll replace me without any problem. I think for me, Cindy is... She's not just your girlfriend. She's someone who's trying to be my mom, and, and I don't want that. I already have a mom.

Mel Robbins 46:49 As you started to acknowledge it, and then you even did this thing where you said, "I can understand how she would feel that way, and I'll acknowledge my part," I literally felt myself, even though we were role-playing, just start to drop the shoulders.

Charles Duhigg 47:07 Calm down, yeah. What the research tells us is that if I acknowledge that what you're saying, that I see the validity in it, if I acknowledge that I'm listening to you, or if I try and prove to you that I'm listening to you, your fight-or-flight instincts will decrease. And once those fight-or-flight instincts decrease, you can start using the prefrontal cortex, the, the most... The powerful part of your brain that doesn't respond emotionally to everything, but thinks things through a little bit logically. It combines emotion and logic. So, you asked, do I need to mention that this is an emotional conversation? If I'm talking to my dad and I say, "Dad, you seem really emotional about this," that's not gonna go over well, right? The- there's no dad who wants his, his child saying, "You seem really emotional." But I can say the equivalent thing by saying, "What I hear you saying is that you're really offended by how we're treating Cindy, and that that, that hurts you and it hurts her." What I've just said is, I've just said, "This sounds like it's an emotional conversation. We need to talk about the emotions," but without using the word emotions, which might turn you off.

Mel Robbins 48:09 So, I want to understand the difference between seeking to understand and connect-

Charles Duhigg 48:17 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 48:18 ... on topics where we have a violent disagreement (laughs) in terms of our opinions and our feelings about things, versus agreeing with that opinion. Using these tools to connect and seek an understanding, versus agreeing with that opinion.

Charles Duhigg 48:43 So, here's, here's the two things to keep in your mind.

Mel Robbins 48:46 Okay.

Charles Duhigg 48:46 Number one is...You don't have to have any conversation you don't wanna have.

Mel Robbins 48:51 Mm.

Charles Duhigg 48:52 If you and your brother-in-law disagree about the Mets versus the Yankees, and it gets really, really tense, don't bring up the Mets and the Yankees. Like, there's so much other stuff that you have in common with your brother-in-law. There's so many other things you can talk about. You never have to have a conversation that you don't want to have. That's the first thing.

Mel Robbins 49:11 So, is there a way to also say to somebody, like, "I don't wanna talk politics with you-"

Charles Duhigg 49:17 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 49:18 "... because we can't do it in a way that's constructive?"

Charles Duhigg 49:20 Absolutely. You say exactly that.

Mel Robbins 49:22 How do you say that? How do you say that?

Charles Duhigg 49:22 You say that, you say, you say, "I, look, I know that we've, we're voting for different people. Like, there's other stuff I wanna ask you about. Like, I, I don't wanna talk about politics, 'cause we're just gonna get bogged down in disagreeing with each other. Is it okay if we talk about, um, what's on TV or what, what, what, what we should do for Thanksgiving," right? But now let's say you're in a situation, it's your dad and he's got a new girlfriend, where you don't feel like you can avoid the topic.

Mel Robbins 49:45 Hm.

Charles Duhigg 49:45 It's, it's a conversation you have to have.

Mel Robbins 49:47 Okay.

Charles Duhigg 49:48 At that moment, the thing to recognize is, there is absolutely no way that I am going to change your mind by telling you you are wrong. In fact, there's study after study shows the more evidence that I give you, the more ingrained your opinion becomes. There's actually a chapter in the book about bringing together people who are gun control advocates and gun rights enthusiasts, right?

Mel Robbins 50:12 Okay.

Charles Duhigg 50:13 What they found is if you use these three steps, right, you ask deep questions, you prove that you're listening, you try and figure out is this an emotional conversation or a practical or a social conversation, when people were taught how to use those skills, what they found is that even people who completely disagreed with each other, who continued disagreeing with each other on the guns issue, they found all these other things that they had in common, right? "Oh, you wanna take guns, you wanna take guns away because you're worried about your kids. I actually wanna give, have guns in society 'cause I think it keeps my kids safe."

Mel Robbins 50:43 Hm.

Charles Duhigg 50:44 We both-

Mel Robbins 50:44 So, you're both worried about kids.

Charles Duhigg 50:45 We both are worried about kids. We both, and we might, we disagree about the path to helping our kids out, but we have the same goal. The same goal is that we both wanna create a better world for our children where they're safe. And by the way, this thing that we have in common, now that I know that we're on the same side of the table for what the end goal is, and now that I know that you're listening to me, I'm gonna listen to you when you say, "You know what? I, I, I see what you're saying about, like, making sure that, you know, guns are available for hunting so that we can go with our families, we can have these special moments."

Mel Robbins 51:16 Mm-hmm.

Charles Duhigg 51:17 "Your, your sons learn and your daughters learn, you know, hunting techniques. From my perspective, 'cause I don't hunt, I'm worried about kids bringing guns into school."

Mel Robbins 51:26 Hm.

Charles Duhigg 51:27 That gun rights enthusiast, he's gonna say, "Yeah, yeah, no, I don't, I don't want guns in schools either. The guns don't belong in schools. That's not responsible." So, suddenly now we're in that gray area. We found something that we both agree on. So, that does not mean that all of a sudden you're in favor of gun control and that I'm in favor of everyone else having a weapon. We haven't changed our minds. We can still take principled stands, but we can also find that gray area. We can find that place where we both have questions. We both wonder, "Am I right? Am I wrong?" And as we work on those questions together, we become a team. And we walk away disagreeing, but we also walk away feeling connected.

Mel Robbins 52:04 I am glad that we're having this conversation because I personally believe, when I think about my own family, like, we are, like probably everybody else's family, a massive diverse spectrum of opinions. But if we all get together and people aren't drinking too much or too emotional, we kind of agree on 80% of things.

Charles Duhigg 52:27 Yeah. And the truth of the matter is, it's still true, except that now there's so many pressures to make us, to make us ignore that 80% and to focus on the 20%.

Mel Robbins 52:37 Yes. And it feels like everything's been hijacked by headlines and bots and, you know, people screaming into microphones, and we have forgotten how much we have in common.

Charles Duhigg 52:47 Absolutely.

Mel Robbins 52:48 And how reasonable most people are when they feel listened to and when you can find this common thing to work on together. And what I love that you're giving us is if you want to be closer to your dad, if you want to stay connected to your grandmother, if you want... And again, I say want because you get to choose.

Charles Duhigg 53:13 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 53:14 If your sister-in-law has a point of view about an issue that makes you feel that she has rejected who you are as a person or who you love, you do not have to have a relationship with her.

Charles Duhigg 53:27 She's never gonna approve of me-

Mel Robbins 53:29 And that's your choice.

Charles Duhigg 53:29 ... and I'm never gonna approve of her, and that's okay.

Mel Robbins 53:31 That's okay.

Charles Duhigg 53:31 'Cause we don't see each other.

Mel Robbins 53:31 But at least I've used the tools. I don't have to be emotional or offended by it. You have shown me exactly who you are. Let her. And I am gonna let me spend my time and energy putting it into relationships with people who literally are wanting to connect, are wanting to see each other's point of view, are wanting to be thinking about things and problem-solving and be more reasonable instead of so inflammatory and emotional-

Charles Duhigg 54:00 Absolutely.

Mel Robbins 54:00 ... and righteous about their opinions.

Charles Duhigg 54:02 You never have to have a conversation you don't

Charles Duhigg 54:05 want to have.

Mel Robbins 54:06 You know, Charles, a lot of listeners wrote in with questions about how do you talk to people in your life about the smaller stuff? Like, you know, "We got the dog 'cause you wanted the dog, but now I'm taking care of the dog."

Charles Duhigg 54:17 Right.

Mel Robbins 54:17 "You don't pick up after yourself. I'm on a Zoom call. You're talking loudly in the background." Like, how do you use these tools to bring up the small things that actually start to become really irritating?

Charles Duhigg 54:30 Yeah. So, I think the first thing to do is to help the other person understand if this is a small thing or a big thing.

Mel Robbins 54:36 Hm.

Charles Duhigg 54:36 Right? So, yeah, you never walk the dog. That seems like a small thing, but to me, that actually means that you see my time as less valuable than your time.

Mel Robbins 54:46 Hm.

Charles Duhigg 54:46 Right? It, this isn't actually a practical question about who should walk the dog. This is an emotional question that I, I feel like it's disrespectful to just assume that I'm gonna walk the dog when it's your dog.

Mel Robbins 54:56 Hm.

Charles Duhigg 54:57 ... now, suddenly, we're talking about something that's real, but it's probably not just about the dog. This is probably something that exists in many parts of our relationship, and now we're getting it on the table and we're, we're flushing it out. If there's something that bothers you and you say, "Oh, it's such a small thing," if it was a small thing, it wouldn't bother you that much.

Mel Robbins 55:15 Mm.

Charles Duhigg 55:16 Right? The, I don't-

Mel Robbins 55:19 Good point.

Charles Duhigg 55:20 Yeah. How, how my wife turns on her turn signal is a really small thing. It really doesn't bother me that much. She does it differently than me. She t- turns on the turn signal a lot earlier than I do, but it's not a big deal. It doesn't really bother me. On the other hand, if there is something that is bothering me, it's not a small thing. The thing I'm focused on might be small, but there's an underlying reason under the reason that y- I have to get onto the table, and that means I have to have a conversation with myself sometimes. I have to sit down and I have to say, "Why is this bothering me so much? What's really going on here? How do I explain this to my husband why it bugs me so much that I have to walk the dog, which doesn't seem like a big deal?" That's what relationships are.

Mel Robbins 56:03 It's so good, 'cause every time Chris and I have one of those small things that starts to simmer, it's the same thing underneath.

Charles Duhigg 56:12 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 56:12 Like, "You don't value my time, or you think my job is to clean up after you and do all this stuff."

Charles Duhigg 56:17 That's exactly right.

Mel Robbins 56:18 And, "I assume you don't want me to feel that way, so how can we get on the same page here about this?"

Charles Duhigg 56:25 And it might very well be that Chris says, "Oh, I, I do value your time. I didn't even, I didn't even realize that you were seeing this issue about dog walking in this broader context. Like, now that I understand-"

Mel Robbins 56:37 Right.

Charles Duhigg 56:37 "... what the dog walking represents to you, l- l- l- I'll walk the dog." Like, th- this isn't, this isn't-

Mel Robbins 56:42 This is legit an issue in my marriage.

Charles Duhigg 56:44 Yeah. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 56:44 And by the way, I'm the bad one.

Charles Duhigg 56:46 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 56:46 Chris is the one who didn't want an ex- another dog. He's the one who's taking care of them. And I know that this is an issue, and because I wanna stay connected and because we've had a conversation about it and I know the deeper issue is about feeling valued, that I make more of an effort, because it doesn't matter that much to me who's doing what.

Charles Duhigg 57:07 Exactly.

Mel Robbins 57:07 But that's why it always (laughs) falls to Chris.

Charles Duhigg 57:10 But it matters a lot to him because it represents-

Mel Robbins 57:12 Correct.

Charles Duhigg 57:12 ... something. And simply having that conversation diffuses the tension from

Charles Duhigg 57:17 it.

Mel Robbins 57:17 Oh, it's so true. Charles, I'm curious, what's one conversation you need to have right now that you're not having? And I'm gonna invite you as you're listening and spending time with Charles and I, to answer that for yourself too. One conversation you need to have right now that you're not having.

Charles Duhigg 57:34 So, I'll answer that in two ways, if it's okay.

Mel Robbins 57:35 Yeah.

Charles Duhigg 57:36 The first is, m- my dad passed away about seven years ago.

Mel Robbins 57:40 Mm.

Charles Duhigg 57:40 And anyone who's lost a parent knows what happens afterwards, which is, you go to the funeral and then you come back to work and people say, "Oh, where were you next, last week." And you say, "Oh, my dad passed away." And they say, "My condolences. I'm so sorry," and then they go on to something else. And in that moment, when that happened to me after I came back to New York from the funeral that was in New Mexico where I grew up, if somebody had said to me, "Oh, I'm so sorry. What, what was your dad like? Like, tell me about him."

Mel Robbins 58:12 Mm.

Charles Duhigg 58:13 I would have loved that. Right? Because it's all I'd been thinking about for the last three weeks, is who my dad was and what my relationship was to him. It's, it was the most biggest thing in my mind. What, what the funeral was like, what the, how the, how the eulogies made me feel. For someone just to ask that question would have been so powerful. And so, one of the conversations that I don't have enough, that I need to have, is that when somebody expresses what they're feeling, if s- when somebody expresses a vulnerability, when someone tells you that something's going on in their life, and we shy away from it because we don't want to say the wrong thing, or we're worried that it's gonna be awkward, or we don't know what we'll say next, we should lean into that conversation. And all we have to do is just ask a question. "What was your dad like? Tell me about him." That's the first kind of conversation that I need to have more of. And the second kind of conversation is, I need to have more conversations with myself. We think about conversations as something that happen with other people, but some of the most important conversations, some of the prerequisites to having those really powerful conversations we talked about, is having a conversation with myself to understand what I want-

Mel Robbins 59:24 Mm.

Charles Duhigg 59:24 ... what I need, what my goal in talking to my dad or to my, my dad's girlfriend, what my goal actually is. 'Cause oftentimes, we just plow into them without, without thinking about it ahead of time. But if we stop and we think, "I wanna have a conversation with myself about why this bothers me so much," that's when suddenly we can connect with anyone and we can do anything.

Mel Robbins 59:54 What an answer.

Charles Duhigg 59:55 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 59:56 No, seriously.

Charles Duhigg 59:57 Thank you.

Mel Robbins 59:58 Absolutely beautiful and life-changing.

Mel Robbins 1:00:03 Um, what are your parting words?

Charles Duhigg 1:00:08 You know, when I started writing this book, I thought that the best communicators, super communicators, that they were people who had been born with something special, right? They had the gift of the gab, or they were extroverts, or they were really confident. And what I've learned through the research is that that's not true at all. In fact, if you talk to the best conversationalists, the best communicators, what they'll tell you inevitably is that there was a time when they were terrible at it. They'll say things like, "I had real trouble making friends in high school. I had to study how kids talked to each other. My parents got divorced when I was young and I had to be the peacemaker between them." The most important idea that I've learned is that anyone can become a super communicator, anyone can be great at communicating, anyone can connect with anyone else.

Narrator 1:00:58 The key is, you simply need to want to-

Mel Robbins 1:01:01 Mm-hmm.

Narrator 1:01:01 ... and to practice the skills to make it happen. And if you do that, your brain will make them into habits, and you will be able to connect with anyone that you want to.

Mel Robbins 1:01:11 You are such a gift. Charles Duhigg, thank you, thank you, thank you for being here. Thank you for teaching us everything that you taught us today. Thank you for sharing all this research. I can think of three conversations I need to have. I am sending this episode to everybody in my contact list, because I do believe with my whole heart that everything that you just taught us today and shared with us will help us connect with people, will help us bridge the divide, will help us influence the way that people think about topics where we disagree. And for that, I will be forever grateful.

Narrator 1:01:54 Thank you so much. And thank you for everything you do. This has been such a treat for me.

Mel Robbins 1:01:58 Oh my gosh. Well, thank you. And I also wanna thank you. Thank you for taking the time to listen to this conversation, to really lean into it. Thank you for sharing it with people that you care about. This is the perfect thing to share with somebody that you need (laughs) to have a conversation with. And in case nobody else tells you, I also wanted to say, I love you, I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And everything that you learn today and the skills that you can build and the tools that you can use out of this research and this conversation will absolutely help you do that, because staying connected to people that you care about is part of creating a better life. All righty, I will see you in the very next episode. I'll be waiting to welcome you in the moment you hit play. One more thing. I know you're thinking, "Oh my god, Mel, I wanna watch more." Um, do me a favor. First, hit subscribe, because that tells me you love this kind of content. And it also supports me in being able to bring you all of this inspiration and these research-backed strategies every single day. So just hit subscribe. Please, please, please. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And also, I know you probably want some more inspiration, something beautiful to watch, so check out this video next. I picked it for you. I know you're gonna enjoy it.