The Mel Robbins PodcastHow to Use Your Mind to Heal Your Body With the #1 Harvard Psychologist
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 29,996 words- 0:00 – 3:40
Meet the Guest
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
I can give you a test on any topic where you can do miserably. I can also give you a test on that same topic where you'll do well. It's all, who knows, right?
- MRMel Robbins
The whole thing's rigged.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
It's rigged against many people who just accept it.
- MRMel Robbins
Hey, it's Mel, and today on The Mel Robbins Podcast, you're gonna learn how to use your mind to heal your body from the number one Harvard psychologist and professor, Dr. Ellen Langer. She has been researching this subject and teaching about it for over 50 years.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
The control we have over our health and wellbeing is enormous. Everybody accepts that a placebo is effective. I think it's our most effective medicine. So, what's going on? You take this nothing, you think it's something, and then it acts like something. Everything that is was, at one time, a decision, which means it's mutable. Everything can be changed. If something doesn't work, change it. Close to 50 years of research has shown me virtually all of us are mindless almost all the time. And when you're mindless, you're not aware that you're not there. Okay, so, you're not there, but you don't know that you're not there. No matter what you're doing, you're doing it mindfully or mindlessly. Most of us are sealed in unlived lives and we're oblivious. As it is right now, we don't see what's right in front of us, we don't hear what's being said, we are oblivious to the choices that we have. Rather than waste your time being stressed over making the right decision, what we should be doing is simply make the decision right.
- MRMel Robbins
Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to The Mel Robbins Podcast. Hey, it's Mel. My team was showing me that 57% of you who watch here on YouTube are not subscribed yet. Could you do me a quick favor? Hit subscribe. It's free. And that way, you don't miss any of the episodes that I post here on YouTube. It also lets me know that you're enjoying the guests and you love the content that I'm bringing you, because I wanna make sure you don't miss anything. So, thank you, thank you, thank you for hitting subscribe. All right, you ready? I bet you are. So, let's dive in. The legend.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
Dr. Ellen Langer, welcome to The Mel Robbins Podcast.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Thanks for having me.
- MRMel Robbins
I am so thrilled you're here. I- I'm just, I- I can't wait to get into this, and I guess where I wanna start is the person who is with us right now has made time, they have no time, but they've made time to be here with you, Dr. Langer, to learn from you. What might change about their life?
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Once you understand what I mean by mindfulness and how easy it is, it has nothing to do with meditation, no matter what you're doing, whether you're doing a podcast, reading, eating, taking care of a child, uh, playing tennis, you're doing it mindfully or mindlessly, and the consequences of being in one state of mind or the other are enormous. Everything changes. I- I had this slide when I used to give these, um, lectures. I still do. And, um, I say, uh, on the slide, "Virtually all of our problems, whether personal, interpersonal, professional, global, are the direct or indirect consequences of us- of our mindlessness." Now, it's interesting because then I tell them, "Just among us and the other 10 million people I've said this to, I really mean all." So, that's enormous, right? I'm saying all of our problems are a result of our mindlessness. So, if we're able to get people to understand how easy it is to change their mind to become more mindful, um, whatever ails them should, uh, dissipate.
- 3:40 – 14:18
How Mindfulness Can Improve Your Life
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
- MRMel Robbins
So, what made you wanna study the mind/body connection in the first place?
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Let me tell you three stories.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Uh, okay. Um, so, uh, I got married when I was obscenely young. Don't tell anybody. And we go to Paris on our honeymoon. We're in this restaurant and I order a mixed grill. On plate was pancreas, so I asked my then husband, "Which of these is the pancreas?" He was more sophisticated than I, points to that. I eat everything. I'm a big eater. Now comes the moment of truth. To interrupt myself, I still don't understand why I thought that being married meant I had to eat the pancreas, but somehow, I felt as a young person, a sophisticated woman of the world, 'cause I was now married, should eat it. I start eating it, and I literally get sick. He starts laughing. I said, "Why are you laughing?" He said, "Because that's chicken. You ate the pancreas earlier." Okay, so I had made myself sick. Now, we go to, um, my mother, who, um, had breast cancer, and the cancer had metastasized to her pancreas. That's the end game. Okay, so the medical world was no longer treating her. She became crippled, um, because they weren't gonna exercise her limbs, and, um, which made sense if you assumed she was gonna die, and then magically, the cancer was totally gone. So, somehow I made myself sick, she made herself well, and of course, during those times, I hadn't yet conceived of mind/body unity. But I had another story that was kind of fun. I think I tell it in The Mindful Body, but I haven't told that on podcast before. So, when I was about, uh, I guess when I was 14, um, I had a friend and I lived in, uh, Westchester, and I had a friend who lived in the Bronx, and she was 15 or 16, so she was in charge 'cause she was the older woman. And I would go visit her every Saturday, and every Saturday, for whatever reason, we'd go and have, she would have a hot fudge sundae or a banana split. Now, I was always on a diet, so, I never had it. Nevertheless, while she was eating, I was eating it with her-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
... in my mind.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
And I swear to you, Mel, that when she was finished, I was full. These things together, um, suggest in each case that here I'm thinking that I'm eating, but I'm not eating-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
... and my body is feeling satisfied. Um, I, uh, think I'm eating...... this pancreas, and it's chicken, which I love, um, and then I get sick. Um, or my mother, however she did it, um, you know, the, where the pancreatic cancer goes away.
- MRMel Robbins
So, do you believe your mom healed herself-
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... based on her thoughts?
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Uh, uh, you know, I, it wasn't based on anything the medical world could explain, so what else is left?
- MRMel Robbins
So, those are examples of things that happened before you could articulate this theory about-
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... mind-body unity. So, how do you articulate the theory now?
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Yes. Your mind... People have no idea, I think, in general, about what we're capable of. Um, the power's enormous, and, um, so the way I encapsulate this to make clear it's our physical wellbeing as well as our emotional and mental, um, way of being, is to, um, to question what people mindlessly accept without knowing they're accepting it, which is mind-body dualism.
- MRMel Robbins
Mind-body dualism?
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Dualism. Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
What does that mean?
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
That... Exactly. Nobody knows what it means, but everybody acts-
- MRMel Robbins
That's why you're here.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Exactly.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Everybody acts as if this is true, you have a mind and you have a body, as if these are separate. All right? And so if they're separate, you run into the problem of, how do they speak to each other? Now, everybody knows that the mind is affecting the body in some way. Um, you know-
- MRMel Robbins
Well, we know that because, like, if you're stressed out, if you're ruminating, if you get really negative, you know that it makes your body feel bad.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Yeah. But, you know, you see somebody vomiting, and all of a sudden you feel like you're gonna regurgitate, and there's no (laughs) reason except that person, you know, has stimulated this. Or you're walking down the street in the fall, a leaf blows in your face, and all of a sudden you're startled, your blood pressure and pulse increase until you say, "Oh, it was just a leaf." So we, we have lots of experiences, uh, like this. But way back when, the medical world, um, believed that psychology was independent of health. And I'm sure doctors in the past still wanted you to be happy, but I think that they believed it was totally separate from the disease process. In the medical model, the belief was to get a disease, you have to have the introduction of an antigen. Without that, you know, you're, you're... Okay, now, people, and I think that I might have had some, um, uh, part in bringing it about, although people still get it wrong when they talk now about the mind-body connection.
- MRMel Robbins
What do they get wrong?
- 14:18 – 26:06
How to Stop Living on Autopilot
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
- MRMel Robbins
You know, for somebody that may be listening, somewhere around the world, and they've never even considered that what they're experiencing in terms of their day-to-day life is that sort of robot-
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... mindlessness, that hasn't even entertained the thought that there is an entirely different way to experience your life-
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... starting today-
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Yeah. When, when people, you know, if you're rushing someplace-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
... just slow down. Not as a rule, just to see that everything is still going to work (laughs) . You know, you still have the same eight hours at work or 24 hours to be alive in a day, um, and your mood, um, racing is not going to make it happen any better, any faster. Just to recognize you have options. Every time you call something by some name, call it by a different name. Take every taste that, um, doesn't appeal to you and make it tasty for yourself. Um, i- uh, it's... I don't know. It, it seems to me so sad that people just go about their business oblivious, um, oblivious to all of the joys that are, are right before them. This is a nice takeaway, that people, um, often seem to get lost not realizing life only consists of moments. That's all it is, moments. And so w- what am I gonna do for the next 20 years now that the kids are out of the house, or what am I gonna do now that I'm retir- Just take care of the moment, and then the next moment, and before you know it, you've had a life lived well.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm. Wow.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
When you're mindless, you have no choice. When you're mindless, you're no different from a robot. The only difference is that you unintentionally programmed yourself, where a robot is programmed by the programmer. Um, and, you know, just think, are robots happy? No. Um, do robots have choices? No. Why would we want to live our lives like that? And so as a result of not questioning this sort of thing, people end up sealed in unlived lives.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
When we're mindless, we just think we know, and so we're oblivious to all the ways things could be different from what we know.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
You know? So if, if you're playing a sport and you're taught this is the way you hold the tennis racket, for many people, they think that is the way, but who decided, you know? Uh, when I give lectures, sometimes I'll ask, "Is there a tall man in the audience?" And for reasons I don't understand, Mel, there always is.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
A six-foot-five guy. I ask him to come to the stage. So here I am at 5'3". Here he is at 6'5". We look ridiculous together, right? I ask him to put his hand up. He puts his hand up. His hand is three inches longer than mine. Then I just raise the question, "Should we do anything similar, uh, anything the same way, anything physical the same way?" And I don't think so. Now is the important point, especially for your female listeners. If he created the rules for how to do this, the more different I am from him, the more important it is for me not to do it exactly that way, for me to change it ever so slightly so that it more meets my own needs, physical, um, being, and so on. Uh-
- MRMel Robbins
And yet we just go through the world-
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
And we just, this is the way you do it.
- MRMel Robbins
... mindless.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
This is the way. And, you know, so one of the titles for the, the book that you have there that I'm very excited about, The Mindful Body, you know, when you write a book, then you have to think what should you call it? And one of the names (laughs) for the book early on was Who Says So? And that's what, uh, one of my pieces of advice (laughs) to all of the adults listening, at some point, become your three-year-old self again. Who says so? Who decided this? Because it turns out that everything that is, everything was at one point a decision. That means somebody said it should be like this. And as I'm saying now, the more different you are from that person, the more important it is for you not to mindlessly fall in line. Just accept that everything is uncertain, not just that two and two, one and one doesn't have to equal two, that horses don't eat meat, um, that nothing is certain, then you approach everything as if it's brand new.
- MRMel Robbins
So for the person who's just starting to have their mind open up, wait a minute-... all these absolutes I believe don't necessarily ... They ... I could think something different. Could you give a couple examples of what this might look like day to day in someone's life? You've already said, "Well, who said that? Who says?" As an example to challenge kind of your own thinking.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Well, when, um, you're about to do anything new, you know, and somebody says, "This is how you do it," you have to recognize, well, that may be how you do it, but not necessarily the best way for me to do it.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Um, when people say, uh, uh, virtually everything, you know, lots of people buy into the notion that as you get older, it all falls apart (laughs) . To me, it just gets better and better, you know, that, uh, when you think about it, Mel. So, you're two years old, you scrape your knee and it's crying bloody murder. You're five or six, Johnny or Jane doesn't send you a Valentine's, you're gonna be rejected for life. You're 13, you have a pimple. Life is over. The belief as you get older, it falls apart, on believing that mindlessly often leads to it falling apart. You know, uh, I'm at the age, I'm 78, and lots of my friends, you know, talk about senior moments, which is cute that we have a name for it, when you can't remember something. Part of the reason you can't remember is 'cause you know so much, and if you only know one thing, uh, it's probably easy to remember it. But any rate, they see themselves forget, and then they worry, are they going to get dementia?
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
And so, that worrying helps facilitate more forgetting, because now you're not taking in the information. You're worried about whether you're gonna be able to retain it and so on. And, um, and then you withdraw a little from oth- other people because you don't want to be seen as we- and, and it just snowballs, um, rather than recognize that when you were young, you probably weren't infrequently forgetful either. So, I teach a health course at Harvard, a big lecture class, and, um, I teach it on Tuesdays and Thursday mornings. And on Thursday before I'm going to do the health lecture, I ask the students, "What was the last thing I said on Tuesday?" Nobody knows. You know, the thing is, the difference is when you're 20, you don't care that you don't remember. When you're 70, you know, "Oh, my goodness. Is this the beginning of the end?"
- MRMel Robbins
Could you offer some examples that you've seen in your research?
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
So, um, let's take the word try. Okay. Well, try sounds good, right? It's certainly better than giving up. I'm gonna try. But you wouldn't try to eat an ice cream cone. You just eat it, right? So, trying has built into it an expectation for failure. So, we did a study, cute study, where we have one group try whatever it is, many different tasks. Another group, they're told to just do it. The doing group always outperforms it. And then somebody told me, "That's the Yoda study." I said, "Oh, yes. Okay, great. I don't have to be the first, you know, for any of these things." It's always nice when other people have the same ideas. But the point of it is to recognize how often, uh, we underestimate ourselves, you know, that when you're trying, you know, how often we think we can't do it, and people have it all wrong. People think they want to be expert. Now, if being expert means you're 100% successful, consider this. You're a little kid. You're in the elevator. You're trying to press the button, you can't reach it. So, the adult with you picks you up, you press the button. And this keeps going. You get taller and getting closer and closer to it. Great fun. Now, when was the last time, Mel, you walked in an elevator and were excited about pressing the button?
- MRMel Robbins
Never.
- 26:06 – 49:17
Hard Evidence the Mind Heals the Body
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
it.
- MRMel Robbins
You've done just remarkable landmark research on this. You mentioned 50 years of research. One of the most fascinating studies, at least for me, was involving elderly men.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
So, the idea was if we can take the mind and put the mind in a younger place, you know, and take our measurements from our bodies, w- w- will we get any effects? So, what we did was we retrofitted, um, a retreat to 20 years earlier, and we had elderly men live there as if they're- they were their younger selves. Now, it's interesting because they're around 80, but that was when, not when 80 is now the new 60.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
They were really old. In fact, you know, when they would show up to see if they could be in the study, and, you know, I'm here and they're coming in and they're walking, and I say, "Why am I doing this?" Because I didn't know if they were gonna be able to live through the day.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
No, and so I set them up at this retreat where I'm in charge of everything in their lives. I mean, i- if I realized then (laughs) what I was taking on, but I'm glad that I did it because the results were very exciting. So, basically, we have old men living in this place, uh, not Hollywood, 'cause I couldn't afford it-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
... but as well as we could, make it seem as if it was 20 years earlier.
- MRMel Robbins
Got it, so they're, like, living-
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
So, all the books-
- MRMel Robbins
... in a building where it looks like, "Oh, wow, I've gone back in time."
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Yeah, yeah. And so they would be speaking about, um, the Cuban Missile Crisis and other events of the past as if it was just happening.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
All right? And so, um, and they'd be watching television shows and movies from the past as if, you know, they had just been produced. All right, so as well as we could, we took them back in time. In a period, less than a week, what we found was their vision improved, their hearing improved, their memory, their strength, and they looked noticeably younger.
- MRMel Robbins
What?
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
All without any medical intervention. So, it was very exciting. Now, but this was, this is a famous study, Mel, and as I'm fond of saying, isn't it obnoxious for me to call my own study famous? No, because if you turn on-
- MRMel Robbins
Who says?
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
No, if you turn on The Simpsons Go to Havana, they talk about the study. So, that study has been out there for a while now. It's a-
- MRMel Robbins
So, what does that tell you, uh, wh- like when you saw this, and you're like, "Less than a week, I make somebody think and act and talk-"
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
What it tells me is that-
- MRMel Robbins
"... like they're younger."
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
... our thoughts, our thoughts are preventing all sorts of very positive behaviors. You know, what happens is, so you go to the doctor and you take the Snelling eye chart.
- MRMel Robbins
A who?
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
I, uh, the Sn- it doesn't matter. You look at the eye chart.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, the E and the Fs-
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Yeah, exa- exactly.
- MRMel Robbins
... and the Gs and the Hs?
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Okay.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes, okay.
- 49:17 – 53:35
How to Stop Stress from Killing You
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
- MRMel Robbins
Based on all this research on the mind-body unity, what would you recommend we say if you have been diagnosed with cancer, and then you-You just cure it? Don't use the word remission.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Well, I think that if, um, the medical world tells you you're in remission, you should, uh, remember what I'm saying now and-
- MRMel Robbins
But what would you say instead?
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
... I, I would say you're cured.
- MRMel Robbins
Great. And-
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
If you're cured, if you're cured from a cold, doesn't mean you won't get another cold.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, and I think it's important because the language matters, and you talk about-
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... stress. That if you are in, quote, "remission," you are bracing for five years. It is in the back of your mind-
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Exactly. Exactly.
- MRMel Robbins
... which means you're activating the stress response, medically speaking.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Because I'm stressed. Now, Mel, I believe ... So everything I've said so far-
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
... is based on hard research. I don't have the research for this particular statement. Nevertheless, I believe it as fully as one can and still be mindful.
- MRMel Robbins
I agree with you.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Which is, stress is our major killer. I was gonna do this study years, um, during COV- right before COVID with people in China, and it just didn't happen, where we take people who were diagnosed with cancer, so hundreds of people, different kinds of cancer. And, you know, anybody who's just told they have cancer is not gonna be a happy camper. Everybody's gonna be stressed and unhappy. So let's give them three weeks to adjust to it. And then after three weeks, we measure them once a month. How stressed are they?
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
I believe that that degree of stress will predict the course of the dise- disease over and above genetics, nutrition, and even treatment.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, isn't that because stress impacts your immune system?
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Everything. And not just... E- e- and everything on any level.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
It's impacting everything simultaneously. Okay, so now-
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
... add that to what I said before, is that events don't cause stress. What causes stress are our views of events.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
So we can control stress. If stress is a major killer, then clearly, learning how... Now, so let me give you a couple of one-liners for people-
- MRMel Robbins
Great.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
... who haven't, you know ... I don't know if what I've just said is clear or not. But, um, uh, next time you're stressed, ask yourself, "Is it a tragedy or an inconvenience?" Because almost always, um, it's not a tragedy. You know, I spoiled the meal, I missed the appointment, I banged the car. So what? And so that you immediately breathe a sigh of relief. Now, um, next time you're stressed, do this. Ask yourself, "What are three..." Because stress requires two things. It requires a belief that something is going to happen, and when it happens, it's going to be awful. Okay, so you're stressed. Give yourself three, four reasons why it won't even happen. Now you're immediately less stressed because it was definitely gonna happen to maybe it will and maybe it won't. Now the harder part. Let's assume it does happen. How is that actually an advantage? And once you do that... Okay, so we did an early, early study with people about to go, undergo major surgery.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- 53:35 – 1:01:30
How Mindfulness Can Ease Chronic Illness
- MRMel Robbins
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Exactly. And, you know, um, even with respect to chronic illnesses, which I have a, um, lot of information on in the book, as you recall, where you're given a diagnosis of a chronic illness, and what that means to people is, "Nothing I can do about it."
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
"This is gonna stay the same or get worse." And all it means, the word chronic means, is the medical world doesn't have a solution yet. It doesn't mean that there aren't solutions. So we did some research where I take people who have all sorts of chronic illnesses. And, you know, you recognize no symptom stays the same. And nothing always moves in one direction. It's not it gets bad and worse and worse. You know, with the stock market, if the stock market is going up, it doesn't go up in a straight line. It goes up, down a little, up, down. And, you know, um, we draw a line through all those curves, it's, uh, t- tending to, to go up. Same thing with any of our symptoms. Okay, but people hold it still and think it's just getting worse, because you get whatever you're looking for.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
You, that's why I said before, don't be a pessimist, because if you're looking for negative, you're going to find negative. If you're looking for positive, just look without the evaluation. At any rate, we did a lot of studies on what I call attention to symptom variability. It's a mouthful. It just means being mindful. Being mindful is noticing change. Attention to the changing of your symptoms. Okay, so we call people periodically throughout the day, throughout the week.
- MRMel Robbins
Who have a chronic illness.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Who have a chronic illness.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
And we simply ask them, "How is the symptom now? And is it better or worse than the last time I called? And why?" And that's the crucial question. Okay, so what happens now? First, um, most of us, when we have chronic illnesses, feel helpless.... and awaiting, especially for what's the next thing the medical world is gonna give. So now, all of a sudden, we're doing something for ourselves, that feels good. Now, when we're noticing the symptoms and we see it got a little better, that feels good 'cause we thought it was only moving in one direction. Now, when we ask the question why, why did it feel better or even worse than from the moment before, that engages us in- in a mindful search, and that mindfulness is good for our health. The neurons are firing, it's, um, e- it's good for us even if it doesn't tell us what the actual cause is of the symptom changing. All right. And I believe that you're going to be more likely to find a solution-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
... if you're actually looking for one. So we do all this-
- MRMel Robbins
So even- even just the- the- the looking-
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
No matter what it is.
- MRMel Robbins
... of like it's not gotten better-
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
It could be stress.
- MRMel Robbins
... but this is the w- reason why.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Ev- it could be stress. People who are stressed think they're stressed all the ti- nobody is anything all the time. So I call you periodically, "How stressed are you now?" Y- give me a number.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
I call you later, "How stressed are you now?" You're less stressed. And why? You pay some atten- you know, and then you find out, Mel, that you're maximally stressed when you're talking to Ellen Langer. The solution is simple. Don't talk to me.
- MRMel Robbins
Don't talk to Ellen Langer.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Or talk to me differently. But the point is-
- MRMel Robbins
I feel more in control-
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
... everything-
- MRMel Robbins
... if I see that.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
E- is everything varies. So now we did this with people who have multiple sclerosis, uh, chronic pain, arthritis, um, Parkinson's, stroke, I mean, biggies.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Uh, and across the board, um, people are helped by it.
- MRMel Robbins
That's so fascinating. You know, earlier you mentioned the word fight cancer, I'm gonna fight cancer.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Yeah.
- 1:01:30 – 1:13:05
How to Make Any Decision the Right One
- MRMel Robbins
So, Dr. Langer, in your book, The Mindful Body, chapter four, Why Decide, you write, "There are probably few things as stressful as having to make a difficult decision. And every time we're faced with these decisions, our bodies suffer."
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Yeah, um, and this is one where I think all the experts, virtually all the experts, have it wrong. The thing to remember about a decision is that you can never test the different alternatives. It, you know... And if you can't test the different alternatives, you can't know what the other alternatives might have been like. So, randomly flip a coin, have a rule that the first thing that comes to mind is the choice you're going to make. Just make the decision, any decision, and then make it work for you. Look and see how it's to your advantage, how you can grow with it, um, enjoy it, and, um, essentially make it work. Because outcomes, again, are not independent of the way we see them. So, making it work means appreciating what it is rather than looking over your shoulder at some outcome that you didn't experience. You know, what people don't realize is regret is mindless. Regret suggests that, "If you only did this other thing, life would have been fine." And, you know, that other thing, even if you were mindless, could have been worse. We don't know. But the important thing is that it is neither good, bad, um, or indifferent. Um, it's nothing until we act on it. And so, if we know why we did what we did, appreciate the good things that followed from what we did, there's no reason for regret. Essentially, Mel, what I'm telling you is that rather than waste your time being stressed over making the right decision, what we should be doing is simply make the decision right.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, what I love about this, like, because people agonize over-
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Oh.
- MRMel Robbins
... making the right decision.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Yeah. Should I have the surgery or not have the surgery?
- MRMel Robbins
Should I break up? Should I not?
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Yeah. Uh, uh, that, we drive ourselves crazy.
- MRMel Robbins
Should I go back to school? Should I not go back to school?
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
And the important thing, Mel, is that all of that stress is eating, uh, eating at us, is destroying us slowly but surely, and making us ill.
- MRMel Robbins
And what you're basically saying is-
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
It doesn't matter.
- MRMel Robbins
... stop agonizing.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
It doesn't matter. We can make whatever it is work. And this is an interesting thing, people actually know when you're there.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
And that's a s- some way in which our mindfulness is contagious. Um, you know, and when you- you're approaching somebody who's mindful, implicitly, you know you're going to be, if not understood, at least appreciated, not disparaged. Um, so you open up more, your relationships are better. Everything just gets better and it's so easy.
- MRMel Robbins
So, a big source of stress, uh, that I've noticed for people in my life seems to be about the past.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And just agonizing over past decisions, not being able to let things go. How do you use some of the mind body unity research?
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Well, if you just think, okay, so stress about past decisions. So, the first thing is, um, to understand everything you do makes sense or else you wouldn't do it.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
So, why you chose the thing that you chose that now you're saying, "Oh, I shouldn't have chosen," was a good thing at the time. There was no way to know all of the things that subsequently were going to happen.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
It made sense or else you wouldn't have done it. That's number one. Number two is to look at, uh, the advantages of that particular choice. You know, everything has advantages, and people think they know this. I had submitted a proposal years ago to my publishers, and essentially it was saying that everything, uh, that's good is bad or whatever. And they thought they understood it. And I said, "No," 'cause I hadn't written the book yet, "Do you ever experience gre- um, regret? Do you ever, um, experience, uh, disappointment? Do you ever procrastinate?" All of these things rely on not understanding what I'm actually saying. Okay, that if you say, uh, everything is good and bad, what they mean is, "This thing maybe has six good things and four bad things, which means, um, net-net it's more good than bad." I'm saying each of those things is not good or bad, can be understood as good or bad. And so life becomes what we make it. Shakespeare said this, others have said it. There's songs and movies about it. People just need to, um, embrace it. You know, um, it's raining, just sing in the rain. You know, who decided rain... You know, so, oh my God, when I was a kid, I didn't wanna go to school because my hair would curl. Now curls are in, who knew? But why did I have to accept? You know. So, what people don't understand, and this is gonna... People don't understand that things either happen once in a while, so who cares? Or they happen all the time where you can adjust to it.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
So, if my hair curled, all I had to realize was that people who see me every day know typically my hair isn't that curly, you know. Um, and if you see somebody just once, who cares?
- MRMel Robbins
Well, you know, one of the things that's interesting, 'cause you basically said there's two things you can do if you keep looking at the past and torturing yourself over it. One is to actually give yourself some grace and say, "Look, it made sense at the time to me."
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Exactly.
- MRMel Robbins
"That's why I did it."
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Exactly.
- 1:13:05 – 1:21:20
Create a Life You’re Truly Living
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
an advantage.
- MRMel Robbins
How does the person who's watching or listening this start applying this?
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
You know what I mean?
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Sure.
- MRMel Robbins
Because I think when, when you hear the word mindful and we talk about things related to thoughts or-
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Sure.
- MRMel Robbins
... it can feel like-
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
No, it's a very good question.
- MRMel Robbins
... okay, well, how do I-
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
How do you do it?
- MRMel Robbins
... what do I start doing today?
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Okay, so it's unlikely that most people will fully, um, accept that they don't know.... because we've been taught, you know. I mean, it, it's very hard. Uh, I'm periodically mindless. My response to it is different from most people. I go, "Yes, I'm right." (laughs) But you know, um, you can't help it. The, the culture has taught us not to be there, and so we dutifully are not there. What we want to do then is two things. One is just the act of noticing of new things, um, and increase your novel experiences. You know, I... it's fun. S- summer is approaching, or here right now. People go away and they look at all sorts of sights. I know in Europe, you look at the churches. We have churches here. No one ever looks at the architecture. You know that. You don't really need to go away because everything here is already brand new.
- MRMel Robbins
That's actually a great suggestion, because when you go away, you are in an entirely new place.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
You're mindful, and you're looking for novelty. But everything at home is already novel.
- MRMel Robbins
So, you could start this right now-
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Right now.
- MRMel Robbins
... by simply, whatever you're doing-
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Noticing.
- MRMel Robbins
... just notice-
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... and try to see something that you haven't seen-
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... before on this walk or in your kitchen or, uh, a spot on the dog.
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Exactly, exactly. And then the other thing that, um, I think that we should do is that the next time you're stressed, remember some of the things we've talked about.
- MRMel Robbins
So, if, if somebody feels, um-
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Okay, so... Okay, so how to become mindful immediately.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah, especially-
- ELDr. Ellen Langer
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... because especially if somebody's, like, completely overwhelmed in their life-
Episode duration: 1:21:20
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