It’s Not You: The Real Reason Adult Friendship Is So Hard & 3 Ways to Make It Easier

Danielle Bayard Jackson 0:00 There's some research that finds that 40% of adults don't have a best friend.

Mel Robbins 0:04 Really?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 0:05 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 0:05 Why?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 0:07 I think it's because-

Mel Robbins 0:08 You found that there's this framework. There are three affinities, you call them, (coughing sound) that are necessary parts of female friendship.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 0:17 They saw the same three things keep popping up in terms of what women highly prioritize in their friendships and what makes them close, and so those three things are... I think this conversation is important for the person who finds themselves about to grow cold or cynical to friendship itself because when we talk about from an aerial view needing more trust in community from a larger perspective, it starts right here. (clock ticking)

Mel Robbins 0:49 Hey, it's your friend, Mel. I'm so fired up that you're here. Welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I'm so excited about our topic. I'm so excited that you're here with me. It's always an honor to spend time with you and to be together. And if you're a new listener, I wanna take a moment and welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. I'm so glad you're here. And because you made the time to listen to this particular episode, here's what I know about you. First of all, you probably don't have a lot of time, but the fact that you found time and made it to listen to this means you value yourself and you also want friendship. And I gotta tell you something, if you're here listening to this because someone forwarded this to you, you know what that tells me? It tells me that you have people in your life that really love and care about you, and the person who sent this to you, they did it because they wanna be closer to you and they want you to feel empowered in your life. And you know what? That is exactly what a good friend does. And this is a really important area of my life, friendship and friendship with other women, that I've gotten wrong for a very long time. I've also gotten it wrong as a mom as I was trying to counsel my daughters through those really traumatic things that can happen in middle school and high school. And then I read a copy of this book that I'm holding right now called Fighting for Friendship: The Science and Art of Conflict and Connecting in Women's Relationships, and I learned so much. This is the essential guidelines to creating and keeping female friendship alive in your life. So, I called up the author. Her name is Danielle Byard Jackson. She's a best-selling author. She's also the director of the Women's Relational Health Institute. She lectures around the United States on the topic of friendship, and she is here today to take away the mystery and the drama and break down why female friendship matters. She's gonna share the unspoken challenges of female friendships, the differences between male and female friendship, how to navigate conflict and challenges, and even when you need to let go of the friendship that no longer serves you. And also, you're gonna learn, how do you bring up something that bothers you? Like, how do you deal with a friend who's controlling, possessive, jealous? How do you deal with yourself when you start being like that in friendship? I know I've been that way. All of these experiences are normal, and the good news is, it's not you. You gotta understand the research, and once you do, you're gonna also realize there's something you can do because you deserve amazing female friends, and today, you're gonna get the roadmap to creating them. So please help me welcome Danielle Byard Jackson to the Mel Robbins Podcast. So, Danielle, I am so excited you're here. Welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 3:34 Thank you for having me. This is awesome.

Mel Robbins 3:36 Oh, I-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 3:37 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 3:37 ... have so much to learn from you. I, I feel like I'm about to get a therapy session that is going to help me understand my past and struggling with female friendship and, as a mom, watching my daughters struggle-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 3:53 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 3:53 ... with female friendship, and so I am just thrilled you're here. I'm thrilled to dig in to your amazing book, Fighting for Our Friendships: The Science and Art of Conflict and Connection in Women's Relationships. Here's where I wanna start. I'd love to have you talk to the person who is with us right now. They've either hit play on this episode and taken us on a walk, or you and I are in their car or at work or in their kitchen as they've got their earbuds in, and I'd love for you to tell the person listening what might change about their life and their friendships and how they feel about themselves if they take everything that you're about to share with us to heart and they apply it to their life.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 4:38 I think that by the time they're done listening or watching it, they feel instantly more confident, um, less alone about any secret, private struggles, um, that they're experiencing in their friendships, and I'm hoping that it increases their level of optimism about all that is available to them in friendship. That's what I'm really hoping for, uh, by the time that we're done with this conversation.

Mel Robbins 5:04 You know, one of the things that I felt after reading your book is I felt like I understood myself better. I felt validated and seen in terms of the struggles that I had making friends when I was in middle school and high school and college keeping friends, and so I'm just super excited about this conversation because especially talking about that tension and frustration.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 5:30 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 5:31 That thing that we can't quite put our finger on. Why are girls mean? Why is it hard to connect with women? Why do friends come in and out of my life? Do I need to have a breakup? Like, what is up with the tension? Why do I miss people that I'm no longer friends with? I can't wait to unpack this, and where I wanna start is you have such an interesting career. How on earth-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 5:52 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 5:52 ... did you find yourself-... in a career where you're writing books, researching, and teaching about female friendship.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 6:00 Um, first, let me say that becoming a friendship coach was certainly not on my vision board when I was 10, okay?

Mel Robbins 6:06 (laughs)

Danielle Bayard Jackson 6:06 Definitely something I fell into. I actually started as a high school English teacher, and so I had tenth and twelfth graders who I was teaching, and I noticed that between classes and after school, the number one thing the girls wanted to talk to me about was friendship stuff. So I didn't realize that at the time, I was kind of unofficially coaching them through their weird, awkward friendship drama. And so the classroom was kind of the first place where I saw how issues of connection and belonging directly impact everything else. Uh, their attendance, 'cause you're not even coming to school if you don't feel like you belong somewhere.

Mel Robbins 6:39 Yeah.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 6:39 Um, their confidence, their academic performance, their mood, all related back to whether or not they felt like they had people at school. And so I did that for about six years and became the academic chair, and then I left and I got into the world of public relations. And I always joke that I made the foolish mistake of thinking, you know, "I'm leaving that teenage drama behind-"

Mel Robbins 6:59 (laughs)

Danielle Bayard Jackson 6:59 "... 'cause I'm working with adult women," you know? (laughs) And it wasn't long before I realized that despite the fact that these women were charismatic, high achieving extroverts, they too were secretly dealing with friendship stuff. And so I just thought, "Wow, at every stage of womanhood, we're trying to figure out how do I better relate to the women around me?" It's not an age thing. It, it feels like the great equalizer. It doesn't matter your background or, or generation. And so for the past seven years, uh, I've been leveraging my background in education to study what the research has to say about women's cooperation, communication, and conflict.

Mel Robbins 7:34 So are women and men's friendships different?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 7:37 They are. They are. At first, I wanna say because I know when we get into, like, the differences between genders, we're all looking for the same thing. We all want support, we wanna have a good time, we want people who offer a sense of ease to our lives. But the research continues to show that there are some differences. I think the main theme I've seen in the research is in terms of intimacy of these friendships, very different. Um, with women, they do experience more depth in platonic intimacy than men tend to in their same-sex friendships. Um, women tend to be more dyadic, so we're one-to-one, which accounts-

Mel Robbins 8:12 Wait, wait, dyadic? What is that word?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 8:14 Yeah. So the-

Mel Robbins 8:14 You're an English teacher so-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 8:15 Yeah. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 8:15 ... I'm gonna have to, like, be like, "Okay, wait, what?"

Danielle Bayard Jackson 8:17 So like a dyad, D-Y-A-D, dyad, so one-to-one. We tend to couple off and that accounts for that depth we experience, right? 'Cause we're in this private, intimate vault, the two of us. Whereas men tend to congregate in larger groups, they tend to collect a, a bunch of casual friendships, and when you're in a big group, it affords you a certain level of anonymity, okay? When I've got all the guys in the room, right? Um, women also in our conversations we are more likely than men to talk about things like our mental and physical health and family, things like that. That tends to center the self, those conversations. But men are more likely than women to talk about current events and sports which decenters self. So even in our conversations, it's very intimate, and then they find that women tend to integrate their friends into their lives to the degree of a sibling, men to the degree of a cousin. And so, you know, I'm certainly not saying that men don't also experience these deep friendships, they do, but more often than not, you'll see that with women.

Mel Robbins 9:14 You just threw so much at us based on the research-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 9:18 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 9:18 ... that made perfect sense. And if you're listening and you're a guy and you've always wondered, "Why does my partner or my girlfriend have so much drama? Why did my sister have so many problems?" There was so much in what you just shared with us, like even just the fact that it's true. Like, if I think about my brother or my husband or my son, they do kinda just travel in groups.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 9:45 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 9:46 And, like, if I think about myself, it's like since the history of time, I've been searching for that best friend. I've been pairing off into one person, and I'm sure we're gonna dig into this, but even just understanding that the research is really bearing out that we tend to go one-to-one and the men and boys in our life tend to operate in groups and what you just said I thought was genius about how if you're in a group, there is a bit of anonymity.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 10:17 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 10:17 But if you're with just one person or small groups of people that you feel this deep sense of belonging to, there's a lot more vulnerability and a lot more that seems to be at stake. I know I've certainly felt that.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 10:31 Yeah, it's, it's hard to, to hide when it's me and you at coffee, and it's very reciprocal. If it's just you and I, you know, you talk, I talk. There's no, uh, um, uh, confusion around whose turn it is to share. I am more deeply known here. I am more accountable here because it's me and you. And I think that's also why we kinda see that running joke, you know, where your husband comes home from hanging out with the boys and you're like, "Oh my gosh. So did they have the baby? Why did they divorce?" And he's like, "Oh, I don't know. I didn't ask." You know?

Mel Robbins 10:58 (laughs)

Danielle Bayard Jackson 10:58 So it's like a running joke, but there's some truth to that.

Mel Robbins 11:00 Well, and you also said this thing about how male relationships, friendships tend to be more like a cousin.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 11:05 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 11:06 And your relationship with the girls or women in your life is more like a sibling and sisters fight.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 11:13 That's right.

Mel Robbins 11:13 And sisters have drama.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 11:14 That's right.

Mel Robbins 11:15 And yet there's a big difference between what happens with your sister and what happens when there's tension or jealousy or possessiveness with a friend.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 11:24 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 11:24 You know, one of the things that you've researched that I'd like to start with is that you found that there's this framework. There are three affinities, you call them, that are necessary parts of female friendship. So can you explain that?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 11:39 Yes, so I call it the three affinities of female friendship, and I got really excited when I found this because I started to notice that it didn't matter which discipline I was looking at, uh, anthropology, sociology, psychology, I kept seeing these themes emerge. And I got really excited because I saw the

Danielle Bayard Jackson 11:56 same three things keep popping up in terms of what women highly prioritize in their friendships and what makes them close, and by extension, if these three things are not there, it's probably the reason why there's a little tension, a little conflict. And so those three things are symmetry, support, and secrecy.

Mel Robbins 12:14 Symmetry, support, and secrecy.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 12:16 Yes. So with symmetry, women really value these feelings of sameness and balance and reciprocity and egalitarianism, okay? We're- we're all equal. We're the same. You are me. You know, even if you go to a bar and you see women talking, you're overhearing them say, you know, "Me too." "Oh my God, same." "Me too," so thriving on that I am you, you are me. Um, and then when that symmetry shifts or we start to sense like, oh, we're on different paths, or she's maybe not like me, that tension of- of we're not in the same lane, what's going on here? Um, so symmetry's really powerful, um, and that egalitarianism piece in symmetry, feeling like equals. So if you have a woman who you feel like she's starting to be judgy about your parenting or your business choices-

Mel Robbins 13:02 Hmm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 13:02 ... I mean, the undertone or the subtext there is that her choices are better, are superior, right? She's coaching you or talking down to you 'cause we're supposed to be, we're the same, we're equals.

Mel Robbins 13:13 But does it also happen that it's not that she's necessarily talking down to you, but that you're also beating yourself up because you're like-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 13:20 100%.

Mel Robbins 13:20 ... oh, well, she's better looking and, you know, all, everybody's attracted to her, or she's getting more money than I am? And so you start to feel like not only are we not equal, but I'm now looking at you, and your example is a reason why I'm now beating myself up and feeling less-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 13:36 100%, and so much of this is perception 'cause maybe she's doing nothing wrong-

Mel Robbins 13:39 Hmm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 13:39 ... but because of things happening in your life, you're perceiving this imbalance, right? So much of it is- is subjective. Um-

Mel Robbins 13:45 Oh, that was m- I- I was a walking friendship red flag.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 13:49 Oh, yeah?

Mel Robbins 13:49 You could've had an entire section of this book called Melanie Schneeberger-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 13:55 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 13:55 ... which is a mouthful of a name. That was my maiden name. I saw everybody as a threat.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 14:02 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 14:03 Like, I- I literally don't think I had that symmetry in a lot of my friendships, and I can see how if you don't feel like we're in this together, then it would create this conflict and tension in your relationship with somebody else.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 14:20 Sure because how do I befriend the threat? That- that doesn't go together. So seeing you as an extension of myself and seeing women in general as an extension of myself, I am you, you are me, you're not my competition, I mean, it directly impacts the way that we engage with our friendships. So that- that symmetry piece is really important. Uh, and then we have support. You know, there's some research that tells us that the number one thing women look for in their same-sex friendships is emotional support.

Mel Robbins 14:45 Hmm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 14:46 So that means if there's nothing else, I expect you have my back. I expect some shows of solidarity, some gestures of- of emotional help. Um, what makes that tricky is we so often don't, uh, articulate what support looks like because I think that as another woman, you oughta know. I shouldn't have to say it, you know? That will certainly make things complicated.

Mel Robbins 15:04 Every time you say something, I'm thinking about a dynamic that's negative with a former friend or something that I did-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 15:14 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 15:14 ... because even when you said that sentence about support, I mean, how many times have we sat alone and then when a friend comes to you and is like, "I didn't even know you were struggling," you're like, "Well, you should've..." You know, you just kind of feel this sense of, well, you should've known.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 15:27 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 15:28 But you never said anything.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 15:29 I wonder how much of that is, you know how they say women have that sixth sense? If I believe it to be true, that women's intuition, which I think we do have, do I believe that you should be picking up my cues 'cause we have that intuition? So should I have to say the thing? And I think a lot of us subscribe to the idea that if we are close, me having to say what I want detracts from the closeness we're supposed to have. So you just knowing it without me saying it is evidence of how much you get me. But we don't expect that in any other relational context, so it just feels really unfair that your friends should be mind readers, but everybody else, you anticipate needing to communicate what you need. And so I- I think if we can keep in mind that you'll never get to a point of closeness that transcends a need to communicate, you're gonna have to say the thing.

Mel Robbins 16:16 Well, I also just keep, I don't know why the word silent treatment is coming up-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 16:20 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 16:21 ... but I feel as though if a woman feels like she's not getting the support that she deserves from another female friend, one of the go-to immature behaviors and behaviors that create conflict and tension is you withdraw.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 16:35 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 16:36 And in your research, did you see a lot of that, like the- the- the tendency to pull back, sort of silently expecting that somebody's then gonna come and ask you what's wrong so you get the support and the attention that you want?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 16:49 Oh, absolutely, um, whether that's because we don't know how to articulate it-

Mel Robbins 16:53 Hmm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 16:53 ... whether it's because we have this belief that I shouldn't have to say it, she ought to pick up on the cues, I do see that, um, emotional distance followed by physical distance. I'm calling you less. I'm initiating less because I'm so turned off, uh, by that thing you failed to do. I'm now silently stacking offenses, and that's why you have so many of us who are like, "I don't know. She kind of cut me off. I don't really know what I did," because I'm not gonna announce it. I've just been saving that up, right? And I expect that you oughta know. I shouldn't have to say that. It just kind of compounds the issue when we do that.

Mel Robbins 17:26 As you're listening to Danielle right now, you're probably thinking of people in your life-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 17:30 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 17:31 ... friendships where this has happened, where you're recognizing that either the first affinity, which is symmetry-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 17:37 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 17:38 ... disappeared or something shifted it and the person no longer became same. I'm in it too, and whether you viewed them as a threat or they started talking down to you, that that frenemy thing starts to come into play.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 17:51 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 17:52 And then, uh, I certainly am experiencing, as you're talking about support...And the sense that, "Well, I'm not getting the support, and you should know what I need because we've been in this close one-on-one relationship," and then you start to resent the person, so you pull away.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 18:09 And it's so hard because if you ask anyone, we all think we're giving adequate support. Like who among us is gonna say, "Yeah, I don't support my friends"? We all think we're doing a good job. So there's obviously a gap here when there's those of us who are walking around feeling, um, a lack of support. It can get really tricky. Um, and then that third affinity is secrecy. So this doesn't necessarily speak to, like literal secrets, but the essence of that, so feeling like you and I are in this mutually exclusive vault where we engage in self-disclosure. I share, you share, because that is the glue of women's friendship, is sharing. And as soon as I start to have tension with you, I share less because me sharing and how much you know of me is probably indicative of how close we are, right?

Mel Robbins 18:57 Mm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 18:57 And then when there's tension, I'm sharing less. Um, or if I feel like you've shared outside of the vault, if you're telling personal things to somebody else, I begin to question our closeness. I begin to question, "Well, do you not trust me?" And so s- you know, of course, intellectually, I know you can have other friends. But there's something around that sharing piece. If you tell somebody else first about the promotion, the pregnancy, the health scare, I do question, "Well, are we close? Because you didn't bring it here in the vault," right?

Mel Robbins 19:26 Mm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 19:26 I've even heard women who, um, are disappointed when the friend just doesn't share. You feel like, "Uh, I'm the only one pouring into this. She never tells me anything about herself." So that really is the glue of women's friendship, is that mutual self-disclosure.

Mel Robbins 19:40 When I was reading your book and I read secrecy is one of these affinities of a female-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 19:47 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 19:47 ... friendship that make it either very positive or very negative-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 19:51 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 19:51 I was like, "Secrecy? Wait, what?" And then all of a sudden, I realized, wait a minute. I... To the women I feel the closest to, it's al- we always joke, "You'll be my best friend forever-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 20:03 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 20:03 "... because you know too much about me, otherwis-"

Danielle Bayard Jackson 20:04 That's right. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 20:04 "... I'd have to kill you." You know what I'm saying?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 20:07 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 20:08 Um, but there have also been moments where close friends of mine have been struggling, and I find out six weeks later that something has been going on. And my first reaction is anger.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 20:19 Mm.

Mel Robbins 20:19 That you didn't let me know.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 20:21 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 20:21 Why am I hearing this from somebody else? And so I realize, I never thought about it in the context of it makes you question how close you actually are. It makes you question whether or not this person trusts you, whether or not this person feels that you're somebody that they can lean on. And so it makes perfect sense, but it's so counterintuitive.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 20:44 Yeah. Information is kinda like the currency, uh, in our relationships. Um, and it's kind of the thing that we start doing as soon as there is tension, is I share less, right? If I start to feel like, "I don't know, things have been weird," I'm probably not sharing things with you. And so I think as much as we can remember, if we're trying to keep the friendship strong, as much as we can remember, "I've gotta share things about myself." Uh, I've heard women who, um, maybe were raised with different cultures-

Mel Robbins 21:10 Mm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 21:10 ... who feel like sometimes that's counterintuitive because-

Mel Robbins 21:13 Yeah.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 21:13 ... there's a sense of, of pride or respect or an expectation that you don't share your business with others. "We don't do that." And so I can honor that and respect that. But for, um, the person who has that tendency or had that cultural upbringing that you don't share, you, you keep that to yourself, I would challenge that person to think about the degree to which they feel close to people in their life if they're not doing that.

Mel Robbins 21:35 Well, what I love about this framework is that when you put it in the context of all the other research in terms of the trends and the tendencies of how boys and guys connect, whether it's in groups-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 21:47 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 21:47 ... where you can be a little bit more anonymous, things are a little bit more casual, you're bonding over the big thing, you're doing a lot of stuff together, versus women, who tend to bond over kind of intimate conversations, one-on-one shared experiences, you can see why if the connection is grounded in those three deeper things-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 22:07 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 22:08 ... and you feel connected to somebody because of this reciprocity, so to speak-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 22:14 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 22:15 ... why you start to have this very intense feeling 'cause we've all had it where you've been super close friends or you've been part of a friend group of, of women or girls, and then suddenly, you feel like you're on the outside of it.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 22:28 Totally.

Mel Robbins 22:28 And it feels like a deep betrayal and heartbreak, and you're not quite sure why. But I think you explained why because the intimacy that is demanded in female friendships is very different, and it's also the source of all the conflict and the tension and the friction that starts to happen.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 22:47 Yeah. And I do think if a person finds themself on the outskirts, or there's been some kind of, like this tectonic shift that was happening slowly, and you're like, "Things are different," to kind of look at those three things and see if you can trace it back. W- did somebody perceive that there was a change and we can no longer relate to one another?

Mel Robbins 23:04 Mm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 23:04 Is someone secretly feeling like, "You didn't support me?" Is someone feeling like, uh, you know, you've been sharing outside the vault, or you're not my person to share with anymore? It's likely that you can trace whatever your present conflict is back to those three things. And, you know, it, it... Just because there is tension that emerges in one of those domains doesn't mean immediate dissolution of the friendship. You know, that's information I can use to know how to recalibrate or to have a conversation so we can get back to our equilibrium, you know? But hopefully, it's a good starting point for people who are struggling to find that language.

Mel Robbins 23:33 Well, I also think with the support piece, it's interesting because when you go through a struggle in your life, whether it's in a relationship, or a health scare, or maybe you lose a job, or something's going on with one of your kids, you tend to withdraw, and then you do feel a little better, at least I have in periods of my life where I struggle, like, "What I'm going through is a burden to other people-"

Danielle Bayard Jackson 23:54 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 23:55 "... and so I don't wanna share." And so there's those moments where you withdraw because you actually need support, but you're embarrassed, or you feel just the heaviness of it. You don't wanna talk about it. But then...Your friends are left wondering, "Where'd you go?"

Danielle Bayard Jackson 24:10 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 24:10 "Where'd you go?"

Danielle Bayard Jackson 24:11 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 24:11 And so I can see how each one of these factors, it really gives you both something to look at that makes it not personal, but also something to look at it so you can be more compassionate with other people and you can be more compassionate with yourself, because everybody's changing all the time and so is your life.

Mel Robbins 24:29 Do you have an opinion about friendship breakups? Like, do we need to actually stop being friends with people?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 24:37 W- Well, I'll tell you this. Uh, we do have friendships that end. I think we know that intellectually, like, "Oh, friends don't last forever," but when it happens, it becomes very difficult to make sense of.

Mel Robbins 24:47 Yes.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 24:48 I see that we have a lot of shame around that. I think we put a lot of value on longevity in friendships, so when it's over, we start to think, "What's wrong with me?"

Mel Robbins 24:57 Mm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 24:57 "What did I do wrong that I can't keep a friendship going?" I always encourage women to think about, um, if you're feeling that shame over not being able to make a friendship last, how do you measure success in a friendship? Is it one that never ends? Is it one where we loved each other really well during this time that we were friends? But friendship breakups are, are really difficult, and sometimes they do dissolve.

Mel Robbins 25:21 Why are they so difficult?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 25:22 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 25:22 I'm thinking about a friend of mine that was my most favorite human being when I was in college, and we even, to this day, have matching tattoos.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 25:30 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 25:31 And we had a very bad breakup, and this was over 30 years ago.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 25:37 Mm.

Mel Robbins 25:38 And I still think about her.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 25:40 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 25:41 Is that normal? Why am I doing that?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 25:44 Yeah. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 25:44 'Cause I don't think about the boyfriends that I had huge breakups with-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 25:47 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 25:47 ... and they were inside me, for crying out loud, and, you know, I, like, had the love, like, drug inside of us. Like, why is it the breakup with a female friend? 'Cause my husband has grown distant from people. He's had breakups with people. He doesn't think about them.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 26:05 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 26:06 Why do we do this?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 26:07 Okay, so-

Mel Robbins 26:08 A- am I normal, Danielle? That's what I'm asking you.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 26:10 Yeah (laughs) . Uh, you are. You are. I have some of those too, and I kind of maybe see them as, like, my ones that got away, maybe like a platonic-

Mel Robbins 26:19 Hmm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 26:20 ... "Uh, could we have worked that out? I still see things and it makes me think of her."

Mel Robbins 26:24 Hmm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 26:24 Um, my theory is that because of how deeply we integrate our women friends into our lives, naturally, I'm still thinking about you when that's over, right? Um, and there are even some theories that find that women's relationships become a part of their self-concept. So, how I see myself is largely through the lens of how you see and experience me. And if you think that I am interesting and funny and, and lovable, um, and then that friendship ends, or you elected to leave, I'm questioning, "Am I still interesting and lovable and funny if she would leave me?" Um, and so I think it's natural to still, uh, grieve over losing friends, to still be confused about what went wrong, what we could've done differently, and then also have that kind of influence the way we engage in friendships moving forward, right? If you have a friend who told you, "You're just too much-"

Mel Robbins 27:14 Hmm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 27:14 "... am I going into new friendships a little tapered down, 'cause I don't wanna be too much."

Mel Robbins 27:19 Yeah.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 27:19 You know, so it does leave a lasting impression when we, when we have friendships with other women that end.

Mel Robbins 27:23 You made me have a bit of a breakthrough and epiphany about this topic. As I was listening to you and I was, like, thinking about my friend, it made me sad about who I was at that period in my life.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 27:38 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 27:39 And the fact that she distanced herself, and it reminds me that I was not in a great place and I was not a good friend. And because it's unresolved, it keeps that part of me, in some way, kind of alive inside me.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 28:00 Mm.

Mel Robbins 28:01 Does that make sense?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 28:02 Totally.

Mel Robbins 28:03 And that if she had come back into my life, it sort of feels like it helps with the acceptance that you've grown as a person, and that's why I also feel like I probably hold onto this a little bit, that I have a lot of regrets about how I acted. I was like that clingy, possessive, lying, jealous friend. Oh my God. Thank God you and I didn't know each other back then. And I'm a different person.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 28:27 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 28:28 And so there's something about romantic relationships that I'm able to forgive myself and move on, but when a friendship ends, you don't really quite ever replace somebody in that category in that same way. Do you know what I mean?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 28:43 Yeah, totally. Uh, you know, I think with romantic breakups as well, it's so easy to dismiss it as, "Well, that wasn't my person."

Mel Robbins 28:50 Mm-hmm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 28:50 I think that helps us to be able to move on. You also kind of know going into a romantic relationship, "This might not work out. You know, w- let's just see."

Mel Robbins 28:58 That's so true.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 28:59 But you're rarely expecting or considering the end at the beginning of friendship. "I just know that I like you, so let's get this thing going." I'm not prepared or even considering an ending, and I think that makes it even more disruptive, uh, when it happens. Um, and then, like I said, because it's so integrated into our lives, it becomes difficult sometimes to move forward.

Mel Robbins 29:18 What I love about your book, Fighting for Our Friendships, is that you not only go straight at this and you unpack all the things that we, or I'll speak for myself, I, got profoundly wrong about navigating female friendships. But what I also love is that the same three-part framework that you say is present for all deep connections between girls and women, it also explains what's missing when you start to feel conflict and frustration. And so let's go to conflict. Let's talk about all of the things that are really challenging about female friendships.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 29:59 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 29:59 And, you know, if I turn to page 44 in your book, there's this concept that you talk about, and w- we even have a term for it, former friendships.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 30:10 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 30:11 I don't think I'd ever hear my son or my husband say former friendships, and yet when I read your list, the roommate-turned-bestie that I outgrew-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 30:21 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 30:22 ... the college friend who phased me out when she got a boyfriend, ooh, that was me, coworker bestie who disappears when you start working somewhere else, my mom friend who I grew close to but eventually lost trust in, the friend I had to release because she didn't reach out enough, the church friend who cut me off because I didn't reach out enough.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 30:43 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 30:44 I have every one of those or I've been that.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 30:47 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 30:48 Why is this a phenomenon?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 30:50 There is research that shows that girls, young girls, um, have more former friendships than boys. But I wanna say this because I know it's tempting for some people to hear that and say, "Well, yeah, because girls are petty. Well, yeah, because girls are always upset about something." And I hear that a lot from men and women, sadly. Here's my response to that. The research finds that our friendships are deeper, but that they do dissolve at a faster rate.

Mel Robbins 31:16 Really?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 31:16 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 31:17 Why?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 31:18 I don't think that's because we just always wanna be in some drama. I think it's because if you are so deeply integrated into my life as my friend, okay, we're sharing resources, you're helping me raise my children, you're giving me career advice, like you're in this with me, right? Then yeah, it increases the chances that there might be some friction because you're all up in my business.

Mel Robbins 31:40 Yeah.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 31:40 Okay? I'm less likely to fall out with somebody who I'm not even close to. So if men are keeping their friends kind of at a distance and we check in three times a year, you probably aren't having fallouts because you're not that up close. If you're in my business as my female friend, there's a higher chance that there is gonna be something that, that goes wrong. So I can keep you at arm's length and be your best friend for 20 years, no problem, because I'm checking in once a quarter.

Mel Robbins 32:07 Right.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 32:07 Or when we go play basketball, you know, our- I'm not talking about details of my life, we can be best friends all day, right? So there is a risk in having somebody who's so deeply close to you, uh, but then we've got to get to the business of, you know, trying to navigate that when those conflicts arise.

Mel Robbins 32:20 You know, one of the things that I keep thinking about is that friendships don't end, they just sort of come in and out, and they're flexible, and it's helped me be less judge-y of myself.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 32:29 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 32:30 But it's interesting that the research says that friendships for girls and women dissolve faster and more often than it do, does for boys and men. And I do think the missteps start to happen when we're little and we're forming friends for the first time, because I'm not sure anybody ever teaches you how to make friends or why you need friends.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 32:53 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 32:55 One question I have before we kind of go backwards

Mel Robbins 32:57 is, why are women so jealous of each other?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 33:00 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 33:00 Or at least, why do we... Why can you tell? Like guys might be jealous of, of some guy's car or his house or vacations or, you know, that he's just a good dude that a lot of people like, but you don't feel it.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 33:15 Mm-hmm. You know, first I'll say that I don't think, um, being competitive or envious is exclusive to women. Uh, we're all competitive, we all get a little envious, and I think it's because we use our friends as a measure of our own progress, you know? So you're very close, in my proximity, so it kind of shows me, "Oh, are we having babies at this rate? We're having b- Oh, how am I doing with my, with my money and my style?" I'm looking to my friends purely from a sociological perspective to see, "Am I on track," right?

Mel Robbins 33:44 Right.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 33:44 So we're all feeling a little like we're using our friends to gauge how we're doing. Um, I think what's so hard around envy that women experience with one another, I do wonder to what degree the patriarchy, uh, influences that. If I'm hearing voices telling me I need to look a certain way and have a certain progress in my life, and my friends are in very close proximity, I'm kind of projecting that onto them. Um, if they're making certain choices or making certain advances and I'm not, I have them to look at to see how I'm doing. Um, but I wonder also how much room we have to express that without looking like the jealous friend. So we harbor it secretly-

Mel Robbins 34:19 Mm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 34:20 ... or we monitor, um, because I don't want to look like I am jealous, so I keep it inside, and that comes out in terms of resentment or shade or frenemies, right? Um, so it does become kind of, kind of sticky.

Mel Robbins 34:33 You know, I wanna build on that because I have a theory about this.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 34:36 Okay.

Mel Robbins 34:37 And especially given that you were a English teacher in a high school, and you're a mom, and I'm a mom of two daughters, and you have a daughter, here's my theory. So if you take it as fact that the average age that a girl gets her period is the age of 12, like that's a huge life-changing event. And what happens when you get your period, at least in today's world, is it's like a very public event. It seems like everybody knows in your class, all the girls know, even the boys know, and your body starts to change, and you feel this loss of control that is very public. And then there's an added layer around the fact that what do people say when you get your period? You're 12 years old, and one of the first things they say, "Oh, well, now you're a woman. Oh, you're a woman now." So you become sexualized, and that also, I believe, in a very subconscious and subtle but not so subtle way changes your relationship to other women. And I personally believe that two things happen. Number one, it's been very well researched, as you know, how girls' confidence drops off a cliff between the age of 12 and 14. The age of 12, boys and girls have the exact same levels of confidence. By the age of 14, girls experience a 46% drop in confidence, but check out what they're also saying in this research about friends, that 60% of girls by the age of 14...... are not confident that they can make new friends. Here's a girl who's 18, this would have been somebody in your English class, "I'm not confident in making friends because I'm for, afraid of making a mistake. I feel like everybody's so smart and pretty and I'm just this ugly girl without friends."

Danielle Bayard Jackson 36:29 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 36:30 "I feel that if I acted like my true self that no one would like me." And there's this memory that I have of being in middle school, and it's kinda when the dances start. And I don't know if it's like this now, I mean, I'm literally talking 40 years ago, but when the slow songs would start, there's this phenomenon where the guys pick a girl to dance with.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 36:56 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 36:57 And it's in that moment that you start to see that there are girls that get all the attention, and I know in those moments, I literally hated my best friends.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 37:12 Mm.

Mel Robbins 37:13 Because they were getting picked and I wasn't. And I, I feel like there is something that happens then that really, in many ways, makes you feel like you're against the other girls, in competition for something other than grades, other than sports. It's this social and sexual status that feels largely out of your control.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 37:38 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 37:39 At least, that's what I felt, and I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts about that.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 37:45 There are researchers that lean into intersexual competition.

Mel Robbins 37:48 What does that mean? What's intersexual mean?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 37:49 So when you have women who are vying for the attention of males, and some would argue that it's a purely evolutionary thing-

Mel Robbins 37:56 Mm-hmm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 37:56 ... that when you do, you know, begin to menstruate and your, your body is now showing and developing that that does now attract the attention of males, um, so I could see that being the reason why during that middle school period we feel like something's shifting, something's going on. Um, you know, I even talked to a woman, her name is Dr. Hannah Bradshaw, and we even looked at, you know, guys girls versus girls girls, and she also said that-

Mel Robbins 38:21 Hmm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 38:21 ... during that stage, um, how women perceive each other, maybe we start treating her differently if she does draw the attention of men and start hanging out with them. But she finds that it's a bidirectional relationship that, you know, girls who are around boys and boys come sniffing around and they're hanging out, we find ourself looking at the girl like, "Oof, who does she think she is?" Because she's around these males.

Mel Robbins 38:42 Yes.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 38:42 But if you ask the girl why she's hanging out with males all the time, she'll say that she's over there because the girls are mistreating her. So it's a sort of refuge and protection. So it's kinda like this, this thing that continues to emerge in a cycle, and I definitely see that too.

Mel Robbins 38:56 Well, it's an important thing to talk about, because I think these feelings are very normal.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 39:00 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 39:01 And when you don't know what to do with them, you either aim them at yourself or you aim them at the other person. The other thing I wanted to talk about related to middle school is that, you know, this elementary innocence and kinda navigating friendship and everybody's trying to figure it out, we're all in it together, what the heck is that phenomenon that happens in middle school where everybody's like, "I need a BFF. We're BFFLs." And you start to become defined by, oh, well, Danielle is Susan's best friend. And even the seeking out of that alliance becomes something that is very prominent...

Danielle Bayard Jackson 39:39 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 39:40 ... for girls that age, but I don't see it happening in the same way for guys.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 39:45 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 39:45 What is that about?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 39:46 I think that goes back to a little bit of what we said earlier around guys just collecting, just casual relationships, being on a squad, it's not really close or meaningful but they're on a squad. But we even, uh, kinda promote the idea to young girls, we'll even ask them from a l- a young age, "Is that your best friend? Is that your bestie? Do you want something for your best friend?" And we've got the, the chains with like the hearts, you know, from Claire's-

Mel Robbins 40:09 Mm-hmm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 40:09 ... it's like best friend. So from the very beginning, being trained to identify who that one person is. And I've also heard it said that, you know, relationships are a woman's primary resource, and I wonder if it's kinda like the social currency, especially at that age, is how many friends do you have? And we see the girl with lots of friends and what do I, you know, what determinations do I begin to make about her? She must be likable and cool.

Mel Robbins 40:32 Hmm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 40:32 You know, so the girl who's got a lot of friends, but especially if you have a bestie,

Danielle Bayard Jackson 40:36 because that means you matter. This is your alliance. You have somebody, um, who sees you as important. Um, and so that best friend phenomenon, I definitely see emerge at that stage.

Mel Robbins 40:46 What would you say to the person who's listening to you right now who either experienced not having a best friend or not feeling like they were part of a good friend group or they're seeing somebody that they care about experiencing it right now?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 41:03 I would tell that woman, um, "You are not alone." There's some research that finds that 40% of adults don't have a best friend. So there's a lot of people out here who don't have that maybe in this particular season of their life. It doesn't make you any less important, um, or worthy or lovable to not have that one person. And if you don't, ask yourself if you can get all the things you need from the collective rather than the singular.

Mel Robbins 41:30 Mm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 41:30 I think it's a romantic notion, this idea of the one person who offers you multiple things, she's your mom friend, your happy hour buddy. It's very cool when that one person satisfies all those things. But until maybe you find that person, can you find that from the collective, from multiple people, you're getting laughter, you're getting growth opportunities-

Mel Robbins 41:52 Mm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 41:52 ... you're sharing resources? Are you getting that from the village? Um, because maybe right now, that's more important than having the one person who satisfies all the things. And so I, I just need that woman to know you are not alone, there are so many people who are in the same boat, and to resist the urge to internalize that and to wonder what's wrong with you because you don't have that right now.

Mel Robbins 42:14 And if you're a parent or you're just worried about a girl or a young woman who feels like she's just been iced out of her friend group, I- I remember when our daughters were in high school of, one of my close, close friends, her daughter was going through something, and her friend group dropped her.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 42:37 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 42:38 And I just remember how many tears her mother and I had over what do you do. I mean, this kid has been basically, you know, the words feel so dramatic, kicked out of, excluded, just dropped by a friend group. What would you say to a person that feels like that's just happened to them?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 43:01 It's really hard, especially as a parent, to not want to drive up to that school... (laughs)

Mel Robbins 43:06 (laughs)

Danielle Bayard Jackson 43:06 ... and find those girls and be like, "What the heck is your problem?" It's hard.

Mel Robbins 43:10 So you's saying we shouldn't text them-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 43:11 I'm saying don't- (laughs)

Mel Robbins 43:12 ... or their parents or get involved and is that what you're saying?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 43:15 Yeah. No, it's hard, right, especially as a mama bear, you're like, "I want my girl to feel confident and to, to belong, and how dare people reject her." That is painful.

Mel Robbins 43:25 Yes.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 43:25 And it's painful to watch your babies go through anything. You know, in the meantime, because we, you know, a lot of times we talk about handling what you can control, that is hurtful, and there's even research that finds that being rejected socially, uh, lights up the same parts of your brain as experiencing physical pain. So, you know, she's not being dramatic. It is hurtful to not have people, and it's even worse sometimes when you don't know what you did wrong.

Mel Robbins 43:50 And so, like, what do you do or what should you say or do you not say anything at all? Do you just, like, give the person space to grieve? Do you acknowledge it? Like I- I didn't, I don't know what to do.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 44:03 Yeah. Yeah. Well, one of the things we can do is, is to share with that young woman who's in that situation is what she can do right now is to continue to show up, let's say, in this s- situation at school, to show up to school, to be kind to others, to confidently go about her day, and to have connections with people, and if she feels comfortable going to one of the young women who she trusts most in the group, 'cause sometimes we feel like it's us versus this large capital G-

Mel Robbins 44:26 Yes. Uh-huh.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 44:27 ... Group. So go to a person in the group who you trust most and say, "Hey, you know, I'm noticing we're not talking as much. What's going on?" Right? And to ask. And at that point, they're responsible for letting us know what it is or not, but if there are people, they would let us know. If they were your people, they wouldn't take pleasure in isolating you. If they were your people, they'd call you in and not push you out. And so it could be a good exercise for her, uh, in terms of identifying who your people are. And so suffering any kind of loss is really painful, and like we said, especially women's friendships 'cause we're so deep.

Mel Robbins 45:01 Right.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 45:01 But these are not your people. And it- and it's tricky because you think, "But no, Mom, they are. Those are my girls." But your people would never take delight in pushing you out, rejecting you, watching you agonize over what you did wrong, and not coming to relieve some of that confusion and distress. They're not your people.

Mel Robbins 45:21 I had my, one of our daughters use this term a ladder, and she was remarking about how she's in this period of her life, and she lives in a part of the world and is in an industry where she says that it's like you're with your people on a certain rung-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 45:36 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 45:37 ... and we're all in it together, and we commiserate and we're bonded and we're kind of sorta supporting one another, but then the second somebody goes to the next rung in the ladder either in this city in a social climbing group or in this industry and you get some success, it's like the rung that you were with disappears.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 46:00 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 46:01 And even seeing that, that somebody that you thought you were close with and next thing you know, you're part of a bigger group, and next thing you know, you're on the outside but they're staying on the inside-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 46:11 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 46:11 ... that is a painful thing 'cause you lose the group and you lose the person that you were close to before the group.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 46:18 100%. Yeah, that is really painful. I think those are the moments where those three affinities of female friendship come out to play, um, when we no longer feel the same, when we begin to take different priorities.

Mel Robbins 46:31 Mm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 46:32 Different values emerge, and even though I have a history with you, an affection for you, it's just not working out. Uh, I think sometimes it's even easier to release friendships when we can easily identify a villain. It- it feels easier.

Mel Robbins 46:47 Yes.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 46:47 When you betray me, I'm- I'm upset, but it's easier to let go. It's harder to let go when I still like you, but things have shifted, and it's simply not compatible despite my desire to stay in relationship with you. Might be even more painful 'cause I can't make sense of it, and I don't know why we just don't work, but we don't. And so again, I think intellectually we know that friendships dissolve, but it is really hard when it happens in real life.

Mel Robbins 47:12 I think you just actually answered it. I think one of the reasons why there is a lot of frenemy and conflict and jealousy is because the process of not feeling

Mel Robbins 47:24 as close to a friend is really confusing and painful, and so turning somebody into a villain-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 47:29 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 47:29 ... and blaming their behavior is, uh, I think in many ways, your subconscious attempt to actually cut off the pain that you're feeling 'cause you can't explain it if it's just we're just growing apart. That doesn't feel as complete as they axed me out. She's now, like, thinks she's better than me.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 47:50 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 47:51 That is, I think, something that we do to process that confusing feeling that I used to be close to you and now we're just not and I don't know what to do with it because I miss that closeness, and this isn't making sense. So I'm gonna just leverage some anger and some judgment here. What do you do when you're jealous of your friends?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 48:13 Yes, okay. This is a big one. So first, uh...I like to look at the difference between envy and jealousy because I know sometimes we use them synonymously. So the way I kind of separate the two is that envy involves two people and jealousy involves three. So if I'm envious, that means you have something I want. This is between you and me. And jealousy means I'm scared I'm gonna lose what I have to this third party that's gonna come in and take my friend. So, like, I'm jealous of my friend. Maybe a new girl enters the, the villa and I'm like, "Oh, what's happening here?"

Mel Robbins 48:47 Yes.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 48:47 Um, but whenever we are feeling jealous or envious of a friend, I think the first thing to do if we're feeling envious is to normalize that. And I know people say that a lot, but something I've noticed, especially with women, is that almost feels like the cardinal sin. Like, we can talk about every other kind of friendship conflict, but don't accuse me of being jealous. I don't even want to be in the proximity of being, you know, an envious friend, right?

Mel Robbins 49:09 Right.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 49:10 So we've gotta normalize, if you have somebody you love who's closely integrated into your life and she starts to have things that you kind of want for yourself, that it's normal to feel that way. And I think it can signal to us our values and desires.

Mel Robbins 49:27 Mm-hmm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 49:27 So if you, you know, get pregnant, I've been wanting a baby and I'm like, "Oof, I felt that pinch," totally normal 'cause that's something you want for your life. Totally normal.

Mel Robbins 49:35 What do you do with it though?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 49:36 I think the difference becomes-

Mel Robbins 49:37 Because we try to... We then avoid somebody, right?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 49:40 Sure, sure.

Mel Robbins 49:40 A meeting... If somebody's renovating their kitchen, I now can't deal with being-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 49:43 Yep.

Mel Robbins 49:43 ... at your beautiful house when I go home to my hovel.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 49:45 Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 49:46 Like, somebody's getting pregnant and I just had a miscarriage-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 49:48 Yep.

Mel Robbins 49:48 ... I don't wanna be near you.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 49:50 Yep.

Mel Robbins 49:50 You know, somebody just got engaged and I just broke off a relationship of two years-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 49:54 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 49:55 ... I don't wanna be near you. And I struggled with this profoundly. I wanted to be happy for my friends.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 50:00 Sure.

Mel Robbins 50:01 I wanted to celebrate and be able to authentically feel joy for somebody else.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 50:07 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 50:08 And there are moments in my life where I could not access it.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 50:13 Yeah. I love the honesty in that, to say, "I noticed that I couldn't have joy for somebody else because the lack in my life ran so deep that it went beyond the joy I was able to muster up-"

Mel Robbins 50:27 Yes.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 50:27 "... for my own friend." And then the shame you feel sometimes for that. This is my friend, I can't even be happy for my friend? What's wrong with me? So I think it helps to identify, okay, this is normal. Then I think the next step becomes working through that, sometimes privately and sometimes with our friend, depending on how close we are. And here's what I mean. Um, if I'm noticing, gosh, when I'm sharing space with her, I notice myself maybe making passive-aggressive remarks or...

Mel Robbins 50:51 Yeah.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 50:51 I've gotta get ahold on that because now it's messing up my ability to show up as a good friend because this thing runs so deep. So I need to go and look at, what's that about? Do I need to remind myself that there's no comparison and life is not linear, and this is her path and, and my path and things will happen for me? Do I need to, uh, evaluate the degree to which I'm operating with a fixed mindset? Because her having is not a sign of me lacking. It's just her having. And what's available to her is equally available to me, and the timing is just different, right?

Mel Robbins 51:22 Yeah.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 51:22 I might need to go and coach myself through that so I can be a good friend around her. If it is something deeply tender, like infertility and things like that, which I see, I've seen women who have expressed to a friend, you know, "I, I love this for you, I'm happy for you," and they can share certain boundaries. "Hey, I don't know if I'll be able to, um, make it to the baby shower, but I am sending you a little something, girl, 'cause I, I want your little one to have this," right? And having friends who can hold space for that.

Mel Robbins 51:47 You know, I had a friend, um, share with me her, her, uh, child was going through very, very significant and difficult mental health challenges. And she said to me, and I will always respect and admire her for this.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 52:02 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 52:02 She said, "I'm so happy for you, but I am pulling back on our friend group because every time I see one of your kids moving through life and hitting these milestones of graduating or going to prom, it is such a painful reminder that my child cannot right now."

Danielle Bayard Jackson 52:21 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 52:22 And having her say that instead of her forcing herself to show up and put on a fake smile, which of course then you just feel-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 52:34 Totally.

Mel Robbins 52:35 ... as this real- weird conflict. And I think we do that a lot. I think that is something where, you said it, your lack-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 52:42 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 52:43 ... is so big or the struggle that you're in is so big you can't actually authentically access the joy or happiness to express for somebody else.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 52:52 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 52:53 That is a normal thing that happens to us.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 52:55 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 52:55 And being able to say, "I love you and I wish I could show up and I can't, but know I'm still cheering for you." And I haven't done that in my life, but this person in my life did. And I was like, "Wow, I totally understand this now and I feel closer to you."

Danielle Bayard Jackson 53:13 Right.

Mel Robbins 53:14 And I think we're afraid to admit these things because we're gonna be shunned, and it's the opposite that happens. Danielle, how do you address a friend who just disappoints you? Whether it's in the category of not offering support, like, you know, you experience a loss of a family member and they don't show up. They missed your wedding or they miss your birthday. They hated your boyfriend or your girlfriend, or they currently do and you're aware of it. They're not happy for you when you get that raise or you're able to buy your dream car. What do you do in those moments where your friend's behavior or energy or attitude or lack thereof is disappointing?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 54:01 Yeah. Um, so we are going to be disappointed by our friends 'cause they are fallible, regular-degular people, right? Um, so I think making room for that upfront is helpful.

Mel Robbins 54:14 Mm-hmm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 54:15 My friends are gonna let me down. I know that I would like to think of myself as a good friend, and I have good girlfriends who could say, "Yeah, Danielle disappointed me that day with what she said," or, you know, so I'm thankful for their grace. But I think a couple things to evaluate when that does happen, um, are the, um, severity of it. How big was the disappointment?... right? Uh, the consistency of it.

Mel Robbins 54:36 Mm-hmm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 54:37 "Is my friend always letting me down in this way?" Right? A lot of times disappointment comes from unmet expectations.

Mel Robbins 54:43 Oh, you have research about this, actually on page 45 of the book.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 54:46 Do I? (laughs)

Mel Robbins 54:46 Yes, you do.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 54:47 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 54:47 You've got great research about this. Oh, my God. Let me read to you from your book.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 54:52 Please. Please remind me.

Mel Robbins 54:52 This is on page 45.

Mel Robbins 54:54 "Another reason why our friendships can be fragile, especially compared to male friendships, is because we have high expectations. A review of 36 studies found that women wanted more from their close relationships than men did, especially when it comes to reciprocity and self-disclosure, which means we are setting and expected to meet high standards, and this means that we also register more relational violations, identifying more wrongs in our friendships. One study, researchers observed college dorms to monitor the number of roommate reassignment requests. Most of them came from women."

Danielle Bayard Jackson 55:37 Yes.

Mel Robbins 55:38 And so this research, to me, suggests that we have these super high expectations of people.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 55:47 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 55:48 A lot of times we don't even tell them what they are, and then when they don't meet our expectations, the research (laughs) bears out that we literally are finding wrongs.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 56:00 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 56:00 Do you think that's part of the problem?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 56:02 Absolutely. And that research goes on to say that this is in both romantic and platonic relationships, how these higher expectations of what's supposed to happen and identifying more wrongs than a man might in our relationships. Um, but there are some things that we can do to kind of close that gap. The first is, how often are these disappointments happening?

Mel Robbins 56:20 Mm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 56:21 The second is, what are my expectations and have I expressed them? Which we said earlier, a lot of people feel like, "But I shouldn't have to." Sometimes you do. And then also, can I communicate my disappointment afterward? You have permission to say to a friend, "Yeah, I'm kinda bummed 'cause I thought you'd come to my event last night and I was excited to have you there." You have permission to say that. And the right people will express to you, "Oh, my gosh, I had no idea that it mattered that much."

Mel Robbins 56:48 Right.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 56:48 Sometimes we underestimate how much the thing meant to you.

Mel Robbins 56:51 Yes.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 56:51 "I thought that, you know, you have events all the time. Why, I didn't know that you care." So I'm more interested in the response after you say the thing, not just that the friend disappointed you. Once I give you that data and I say, "I thought you would show up," or, "When my dad passed, I wanted you here. I didn't want the texts."

Mel Robbins 57:08 Yeah.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 57:08 "I wish you came and sat with me."

Mel Robbins 57:10 Yeah.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 57:11 How do they respond? What's next? That's what I'm more interested in. Is there an expression of regret? Is there an effort to repair? Is this a moment to help facilitate, "Oh, okay, now I have a better understanding of what you're looking for"? That's what I'm more concerned about, as opposed to, "The friend disappointed me." Um, and I think that can help and maybe stop us from prematurely ending some friendships.

Mel Robbins 57:33 Well, see, I think this is a lot of what you also write about in your book, is that all of this conflict and these moments that are normal and human and in every friendship, it's a give and a take, we both have a little bit of responsibility here-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 57:49 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 57:49 ... in terms of what's happening, that it's either an opportunity for you to distance yourself or an opportunity for you to lean in and actually join in with somebody. And, you know, one of the things as I was really researching the let them theory, and I know personally I have lived in fear of disappointing people my whole life and bent myself into knots to try to make sure nobody's disappointed, is that all of a sudden it occurred to me, well, isn't it a good thing if a friend is disappointed that you didn't show up?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 58:22 Mm.

Mel Robbins 58:23 Doesn't that just mean they wanted you there?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 58:25 Right.

Mel Robbins 58:26 Isn't that a sign that somebody really cares about you and that you matter? Versus what I turned it into my whole life, which is somehow it's some indictment against me. Like, if you can look at it that way, if somebody respects you enough to say, "I was disappointed that you forgot my birthday," and they wanna talk to you about it, to me, that's a green flag in a friendship.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 58:50 Absolutely.

Mel Robbins 58:51 And, you know, u- unless of course you're like, "You ba-ba-da..." You know, they're doing all that stuff.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 58:54 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 58:54 But

Mel Robbins 58:55 what are warning signs that a friend is not or no longer good for you?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 59:01 Mm. Um, one of the ones I like to lead with is, if you don't like who you are when you're together.

Mel Robbins 59:08 Mm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 59:10 I know I've been a part of friendships where I am not acting like myself when we're- when we get together, and I don't know what prompts that. It, like, just happens so stealthily. But when I'm with other people, I enjoy who I am. I'm proud of who I am.

Mel Robbins 59:23 Mm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 59:24 So the first indicator is, you don't like who you are when you're together. Another might be, after you're spending time together, you find yourself totally depleted. It is exhausting. Whether she's super negative or you find yourself, um, doing the mental labor of performing and you feel like you can, hoo, finally relax, right?

Mel Robbins 59:42 Mm-hmm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 59:43 Um, that could be a sign that it's not good for you. If you feel like, um, certain goals you have for yourself are being delayed by being in this friendship, whatever that looks like for you. I know sometimes we have friends who are like, "Oh, you're not like you used to be. You used to be fine with this. You used to be..." And there are things I want to do with my life, new directions and goals that I have, but I feel like I'd be betraying my friends by pursuing these new goals that-

Mel Robbins 1:00:06 Hm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:00:06 ... I have for myself. That can be something to look at as well. And then the last thing I'll say is, um, whenever trust feels like it's so lost that there's no way to, to recover it and get that back, that can be difficult, uh, for maintaining a, a relationship.

Mel Robbins 1:00:24 Uh, as I'm listening to you, I'm like, "You're right. Why do I ignore those things?"

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:00:27 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:00:27 "And stay in it and work harder?"

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:00:29 Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard because I know, you know, when we see these videos and on social media and it's like, uh, "Nine Signs She's Toxic" or "Nine Signs..." You know, one thing I wanna say about the whole toxic thing, um, is sometimes it's not that this person's so toxic, even though there are people with, with ongoing toxic behaviors, but sometimes it's just our dynamic.Maybe it's not her, it's just there's something that-

Mel Robbins 1:00:51 It's us.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:00:51 ... happens when we come together and it's not clicking. "I don't like who I am and, and something's weird here." But all your other friends, eh, that works for you.

Mel Robbins 1:01:00 Right.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:01:00 They think you're delightful, that's awesome.

Mel Robbins 1:01:02 Right. Right.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:01:02 But there's something about our make-up, like quite literally our chemistry, that when we come together it doesn't work. And so I think it goes back to what we said earlier, it's easier when you can easily identify the villain to separate and make sense of what's happening. It's harder to just say, "I just think it's us. I don't enjoy it and I don't like who I become."

Mel Robbins 1:01:20 Right.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:01:21 Um, and that's harder sometimes because there's more nuance and gray area.

Mel Robbins 1:01:24 Yes. And it requires you to take responsibility-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:01:26 Sure.

Mel Robbins 1:01:26 ... for your part in it. And what I love about that is that I hate it when people label other people toxic. There's behavior that's toxic.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:01:35 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:01:35 But the finger pointing and the ghosting and the just dropping a friend without a conversation, in my opinion, that's a sign that you're the one that's immature and engaging in toxic behavior.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:01:46 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:01:47 That not actually trying to work it out or have the conversation that, "There's something off with us, let's take a little space." And as I've gotten older, my opinion about friendship ending has changed. I just feel like friendships are very flexible, they come, they go. If something ends, at some point in the future, a decade from now, who knows what's gonna happen-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:02:10 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:02:10 ... and how life might bring us back together. But leaving the door open for people to change and for you to change and for circumstances to change has really helped me in being a better friend, in being more compassionate, in seeing that in any relationship I own at least 50% of what's happening here because my energy is just as powerful as the other person's energy.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:02:33 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:02:33 And as I change, things are gonna change. You know, one of the things I really loved about your book, and I cannot wait to share this conversation especially with my daughters, I would love

Mel Robbins 1:02:43 to talk about having a friendship with somebody who's controlling or possessive-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:02:48 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:02:49 ... because I do think that's a predominantly female thing in friendship. What do you do if you've got that friend who has your location and you're out to dinner with somebody else and all of a sudden you get that text, "Hey, I see that you're right by me. What's up?" Like, "How come you didn't call me? What are you doing?"

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:03:07 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:03:07 And you're like, "Oh, my God." Like, "Dude."

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:03:10 Yeah. I think a lot of what lives up under that controlling nature is anxiety.

Mel Robbins 1:03:17 Mm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:03:18 An anxious attachment which women are, um, more susceptible to. And so I'm anxious about you being away and, "Where did you go?" and, "What do you think?" and, "What's going on?" And so, you know, when we have a friend who's controlling us, controlling decisions we make, she's anxious over the fact that you're making decisions that are not what she would make, you're doing what she doesn't want you to do. There's a lot of anxiety about not being able to handle or manage or predict the outcome.

Mel Robbins 1:03:45 Yeah.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:03:46 And having that tendency needs to get in check because it's hard to be in relationship with the person who needs you to think like they do, be where they need you to be, be available when they want you to be available, because the whole thing about healthy friendships is there's space for us to be together and that interdependence and there's also space for me to be myself. And also, and always trying to do that dance between us and our togetherness and me and my individuality. But when you have people who begin to suffocate that part-

Mel Robbins 1:04:16 Right.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:04:16 ... there's, there's going to be an issue.

Mel Robbins 1:04:17 Danielle, what do you do when you have a controlling friend and their controlling nature is really starting to get annoying?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:04:25 It helps to package it as an invitation and not an accusation.

Mel Robbins 1:04:29 Oh, wait a minute. An invitation? Not an accusation? How do I do that? (laughs)

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:04:35 (laughs) So because it's easy to say, you know, "You're texting me all the time. You have to stop." Or, "I'm overwhelmed." Right? So I'm gonna invite you to participate in the way that feels good to me. So maybe instead I'll say, "Hey, I know you like to check in, uh, throughout the day, but I think it's best for me to check in on the weekends. Like, I love our little phone calls on the weekend. Do you wanna do Saturdays or Sundays?" That's an affirmative boundary on, "Where would you, when would you like to talk? Because for me it's overwhelming." Right? Um, and that's me kind of gracefully moving you toward what I need you to do 'cause-

Mel Robbins 1:05:06 Are you just... Literally, I just felt like this class in session-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:05:09 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:05:09 ... with Professor Bayer Jackson. I mean, I just felt like a teacher who sort of redirects you with a smile.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:05:15 (laughs) Which, an- and you know, that's a part of it too is sometimes playfulness... W- when I hear people talk about conflict, it sounds really scary-

Mel Robbins 1:05:22 Yes.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:05:22 ... and s- and serious.

Mel Robbins 1:05:23 That's why I avoid it.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:05:24 Yeah. Very... Well, that makes sense like- (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:05:26 And then I show up with this fake smile even though I'm jealous of your whole life.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:05:29 You know, eh, where appropriate we can address some things with playfulness, and I think it's wise to do that sometimes because it helps us to relax, right? If you're being playful it shows that there's no threat around 'cause we can be playful. You can't be playful and feel in danger at the same time.

Mel Robbins 1:05:44 Okay. Well, here's another one. Here's a big one. You've been invited to something-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:05:48 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:05:49 ... and your friend has not. So what do I do if I know this group is not gonna invite this person?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:05:56 Mm-hmm. That's always really tricky, and we have to take into account things like, um, "I know that they are not friends, but they're inviting me," so, you know, and you're trying to figure out, "How do I maintain a sense of loyalty but also be in the..."

Mel Robbins 1:06:08 Yes.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:06:08 It's really tricky. I'll, I'll say this to the person who's being controlling, if I may speak to her. Um, there are a couple of things that have to happen so that people don't experience you that way.

Mel Robbins 1:06:19 Mm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:06:20 One is you've got to figure out the importance of having multiple friends because you might unintentionally be, be putting pressure on that one friend to be your everything, and she wants to be so many things to you, but it's not fair. So how can you broaden your friendships? The second thing you have got to figure out if you find yourself being anxious and controlling is, "What is the fear? What am I afraid of if I loosen to my grip? Am I scared I would be forgotten? Am I scared I might be left behind?" There's something deeper there that's got you so, uh, fixated...... on this friend.

Mel Robbins 1:06:57 Mm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:06:58 Um, and I think we have to kind of look at those things because it's gonna be really difficult to be in relationship with other people. If that's something that begins to take over, we've got to p- get it in check. And I, I sympathize with you, uh, because, you know, uh, friendship stirs up so much. You're bringing so much of your personal stuff to the table.

Mel Robbins 1:07:19 Yeah.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:07:19 And we're working it out in the friction of friendship. But if you want healthy friendships, if you want to be deeply known and you want to deeply know others, you have to find a way to offer space to people to be themselves and trust that they still love you even if they're not around. Um, and that can be really hard, but something to maybe work through or get support with so that you can enjoy a healthy connection.

Mel Robbins 1:07:41 I love your perspective on this. I'm curious. As an expert and researcher on friendship, how do you foster

Mel Robbins 1:07:49 long-term friendships with women, especially as you're moving through different phases of life? What's the research say?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:07:56 Yeah. So life transitions are actually a big reason why women's friendships end. And I also believe that there are a lot more, uh, prominent transitions in a woman's life.

Mel Robbins 1:08:07 Mm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:08:07 And it becomes difficult sometimes to stay together during those disruptions throughout the lifecycle. So her getting married and then getting really, really involved with that spouse, and now you're like, "Oh, what are we doing here?" You know, you, you, "We're not spending time together." Her having a baby, and now the topic of conversation is, is butt paste and bottles, and I'm not interested, right? So it can be hard to show up in those ways. I think one thing that we have to do is give ourselves grace because we've never been friends like this before.

Mel Robbins 1:08:35 Mm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:08:36 We've never had to be friends with you having to also have this little baby you have to keep alive at home. So the first thing to honor, "Okay, we've never done this. Let's get to the business of figuring it out." Um, I also see people experience so much dissatisfaction because you're comparing your present to how it used to be. And that chapter is no more, or it won't return for a long time, right, while this new season is in. And I have people feel a lot of, uh, disappointment around that.

Mel Robbins 1:09:02 Hm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:09:02 "Oh, it's not like it used to be. It's not like it used to be."

Mel Robbins 1:09:05 Yeah.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:09:05 Well, we know, again, that friendships change, but when it happens, it's really difficult to adapt. Um, and then the last thing I would say if you feel a transition coming on with your friendship is it's okay to say it because that takes a lot of, uh, power away from the fear.

Mel Robbins 1:09:20 Hm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:09:20 So to say to a friend, like, "Listen. I know you're booed up now. I love that for you, but can we still do FaceTimes on Fridays? Because I miss you, and I don't see you like I used to." And I think that feels scary because it's more vulnerable.

Mel Robbins 1:09:33 Mm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:09:34 It's easier to say, "Oh, got a man and forgot all about me." It's harder to say, "I really miss you, and I'm, I'm happy for you. I love how happy he makes you, but I miss us."

Mel Robbins 1:09:45 Yeah.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:09:45 "What can we do about that?" And it kinda takes the power out of the fear of what happens next with us during this transition.

Mel Robbins 1:09:51 One of the things that I love that you've said a couple times is, first of all, you normalize how common it is to not have a, quote, best friend.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:09:58 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:09:59 But to encourage us all to look to the greater group and the collective to provide all the different things we need, from friendship, to support, to someone to talk about, like, global warm... Like, whatever, the issues you care about, somebody to have fun with.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:10:17 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:10:18 That you don't just rely on one person. And one thing I'd love to know is, how can someone feel closeness to a new female friend?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:10:28 Uh, well, the first thing I'm gonna say is look at those three affinities of female friendship. How can you introduce those from the very beginning? How can I highlight our similarities and play into that?

Mel Robbins 1:10:38 Hm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:10:38 How can I offer tangible demonstrations of support? How can I make it safe here for us to share with one another? Those are things that help us to feel close in those friendships. And then, again, and I know this continues to be a theme in what I'm saying, is you can announce it. I, I... We've gotta get permission to announce it. You can say to a friend, um, "I love getting to know more and more about you." Or, like, "Every time we get together, I'm, I'm learning more about you, and I'm loving it. I'm loving getting to know you." I mean, sometimes saying it upfront helps the other person to buy in because so often we wonder, "Do they like me? Do they not? Like, are they as invested as I am?" So let me remove the mystery. "I really enjoy you. Do you wanna do this more often?" And sometimes making it plain, uh, I think kind of relieves that pressure, the mystery, the game-playing, right? "I initiated last time, but is that too much?" There, there's no time for that. So I think even explicitly expressing to somebody, "I'm so excited to get to know you more. I'm always learning a little something every time we get together." I think that sometimes can expedite the process-

Mel Robbins 1:11:40 Yes.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:11:40 ... of being close friends.

Mel Robbins 1:11:41 Yes. You also had interesting research about how women's friendships, in particular when you're younger, are a huge predictor for how your relationship with your significant other is gonna play out. Can you say more about that?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:11:53 Yeah. So we tend to put friendship into the margins of our lives and see it as, like, this extra recreational thing that's nonessential, but it really is. Um, and it has benefits that we might not even suspect. Um, and there is a study that found that the number one predictor of the success of your romantic adult relationships is how well you did with your same-sex friends in adolescence.

Mel Robbins 1:12:18 Really?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:12:18 Likely because things do tend to be segregated by gender in school. You know, "Girls go over here. Boys go over here." I'm mostly with girls, you know, in school, in these different groups and, and class. That's where I'm developing social skills. I'm learning to negotiate. I'm learning how to communicate. How do I show up as a friend? I'm learning that here. So if I struggled with that in these formative years, it's likely that those same skills that I need to have a successful romantic relationship, some of that stuff's gonna travel with me. So these are... You know, it's an important time to figure out with other women when we're young, how do we do this? Because there are surprising ways that it impacts everything else.

Mel Robbins 1:12:57 For those of us that look back on those years and go, "Oh, God, I was terrible at this."

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:13:01 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:13:02 I was the jealous, competitive, one-upper-

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:13:05 Sure.

Mel Robbins 1:13:05 ... gossipy. We can change.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:13:07 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:13:07 Right?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:13:08 I'm living proof, hey, that you can. And I mean the, okay, the same way we get all these books to be a better parent, to be a better wife, like that's, that's awesome. This can be learned too. And, and this is what I mean about, like, giving people more optimism. There's something where we feel like, well, this should be organic. Why can't I get this right?

Mel Robbins 1:13:30 Mm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:13:30 But we aren't learning about how to show up as a better friend because we feel like it should be something that's just natural. And the extent of the conversation at one period about friendship is, you know, it was, "You either have friends or you don't. And if you don't, what's wrong with you?" There's so much more to that conversation. So yes, get the book around how to be a better friend, or to, to get over your anxious attachment so you can enjoy healthier relationships. You gotta figure that out, uh, especially in adulthood-

Mel Robbins 1:13:55 Yeah.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:13:55 ... because the scripts that worked for you in friendship at 18 ain't gonna work at 45. At some point, I have to sit down and get to the business of figuring out, how do I do this? How do I make time for friends with my other obligations? How do I release, you know, my anxiousness? 'Cause it, that's been a theme in my friendships, and it hasn't gone well. How do I set boundaries without feeling like an awful person? We've gotta get to the business of figuring that out to enjoy the kind of connections that we're, we're dreaming about.

Mel Robbins 1:14:23 What I love about your book, Fighting for Our Friendships, is that you not only go straight at this and you unpack all the things that we, or I'll speak for myself, I got profoundly wrong about navigating female friendships, it also explains what's missing when you start to feel conflict and frustration. I love the example that you give in your book, and it's on page 110, and you need to send this episode and conversation and Danielle's brilliance to every person in your life that is getting married right now because let me read this to you. You're talking about this sort of mismatch where you think the friendship is more important than it is to the other person. "I see this play out most often in bridal parties. Several brides-to-be, or would-be maids of honor, come to me for the sensitive dilemma of bridal party selection."

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:15:22 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:15:23 "There's tension when one friend assumes she'll be asked to be a bridesmaid, but realizes the bride has no intention of asking her. Brides come to me with tearful pleas to help them figure out, how do I choose, and then, how do I deliver the news to those who won't be included?" When somebody has a wedding, why is there so much conflict and drama inside people's friend groups?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:15:47 Having a bridal party is probably the only time, aside from the Myspace Top 8, where you have to put your hierarchy on display. So, if I'm going through our friendship assuming that we're on the same level, and I'm not chosen as a bridesmaid, I'm not chosen as the maid of honor, and here I am thinking we're best friends, for a lot of women, they do say it's hard for them to recover after that with that new information that, "We're not as close as I thought we were because I've been going around thinking that we see each other the same."

Mel Robbins 1:16:21 Mm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:16:22 And then when you have to make a public declaration of your hierarchy of friends, I'm not up there, it can be really hard to digest.

Mel Robbins 1:16:31 What's your advice?

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:16:34 Well, um, the first is to ask yourself, um, about the history and the evidence you have in that friendship. Uh, does she show up? Is she attentive? If I need support, she's there? And can I be okay with that? Some women can't, and some will say, "You know what? She's a good friend. We're good friends to each other. I can find a way to be okay with this." Right? So looking at, what does the friendship offer me even though I might not be her top-tier friend? And to the woman who has to make these bridal party selections and feels really nervous about it, to have those conversations in a way that still offers reassurance to the friends who aren't involved because the number one question they're gonna have is, "Am I more invested than you?"

Mel Robbins 1:17:17 Mm.

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:17:17 "Do I not matter? Do you not care?" That's gonna be at the heart of that rejection that they experience. So as much as I can tenderly assure you that this is totally a logistical thing and it has nothing to do with me and you, the better, because those are the things we're going to be questioning after you make that selection.

Mel Robbins 1:17:35 Gotcha. And by logistical, how do you not... 'Cause, 'cause literally you're like, "Well, look, my husband only has, like, two friends."

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:17:41 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:17:41 "So I can't have 17 of you standing there."

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:17:43 No, really. Truly.

Mel Robbins 1:17:43 "My sister will kill me-"

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:17:45 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:17:45 "... if it's not just her."

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:17:46 Truly.

Mel Robbins 1:17:46 Like, "I, I know how expensive this is. You've been in 17 weddings this summer, and I've just decided to keep the bridal party small."

Danielle Bayard Jackson 1:17:53 100%. But providing that more aerial view of the decisions you have to make and the things you're accounting for can help people to understand a little bit and to depersonalize a little bit if you can give them that overview. So I've seen it be helpful in that way. Or you can scratch the bridal party all together, which I see more