The Mel Robbins PodcastIt’s Not You: The Real Reason Adult Friendship Is So Hard & 3 Ways to Make It Easier
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,037 words- 0:00 – 7:34
Welcome
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
There's some research that finds that 40% of adults don't have a best friend.
- MRMel Robbins
Really?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
Why?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
I think it's because-
- MRMel Robbins
You found that there's this framework. There are three affinities, you call them, (coughing sound) that are necessary parts of female friendship.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
They saw the same three things keep popping up in terms of what women highly prioritize in their friendships and what makes them close, and so those three things are... I think this conversation is important for the person who finds themselves about to grow cold or cynical to friendship itself because when we talk about from an aerial view needing more trust in community from a larger perspective, it starts right here. (clock ticking)
- MRMel Robbins
Hey, it's your friend, Mel. I'm so fired up that you're here. Welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I'm so excited about our topic. I'm so excited that you're here with me. It's always an honor to spend time with you and to be together. And if you're a new listener, I wanna take a moment and welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. I'm so glad you're here. And because you made the time to listen to this particular episode, here's what I know about you. First of all, you probably don't have a lot of time, but the fact that you found time and made it to listen to this means you value yourself and you also want friendship. And I gotta tell you something, if you're here listening to this because someone forwarded this to you, you know what that tells me? It tells me that you have people in your life that really love and care about you, and the person who sent this to you, they did it because they wanna be closer to you and they want you to feel empowered in your life. And you know what? That is exactly what a good friend does. And this is a really important area of my life, friendship and friendship with other women, that I've gotten wrong for a very long time. I've also gotten it wrong as a mom as I was trying to counsel my daughters through those really traumatic things that can happen in middle school and high school. And then I read a copy of this book that I'm holding right now called Fighting for Friendship: The Science and Art of Conflict and Connecting in Women's Relationships, and I learned so much. This is the essential guidelines to creating and keeping female friendship alive in your life. So, I called up the author. Her name is Danielle Byard Jackson. She's a best-selling author. She's also the director of the Women's Relational Health Institute. She lectures around the United States on the topic of friendship, and she is here today to take away the mystery and the drama and break down why female friendship matters. She's gonna share the unspoken challenges of female friendships, the differences between male and female friendship, how to navigate conflict and challenges, and even when you need to let go of the friendship that no longer serves you. And also, you're gonna learn, how do you bring up something that bothers you? Like, how do you deal with a friend who's controlling, possessive, jealous? How do you deal with yourself when you start being like that in friendship? I know I've been that way. All of these experiences are normal, and the good news is, it's not you. You gotta understand the research, and once you do, you're gonna also realize there's something you can do because you deserve amazing female friends, and today, you're gonna get the roadmap to creating them. So please help me welcome Danielle Byard Jackson to the Mel Robbins Podcast. So, Danielle, I am so excited you're here. Welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Thank you for having me. This is awesome.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, I-
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... have so much to learn from you. I, I feel like I'm about to get a therapy session that is going to help me understand my past and struggling with female friendship and, as a mom, watching my daughters struggle-
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... with female friendship, and so I am just thrilled you're here. I'm thrilled to dig in to your amazing book, Fighting for Our Friendships: The Science and Art of Conflict and Connection in Women's Relationships. Here's where I wanna start. I'd love to have you talk to the person who is with us right now. They've either hit play on this episode and taken us on a walk, or you and I are in their car or at work or in their kitchen as they've got their earbuds in, and I'd love for you to tell the person listening what might change about their life and their friendships and how they feel about themselves if they take everything that you're about to share with us to heart and they apply it to their life.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
I think that by the time they're done listening or watching it, they feel instantly more confident, um, less alone about any secret, private struggles, um, that they're experiencing in their friendships, and I'm hoping that it increases their level of optimism about all that is available to them in friendship. That's what I'm really hoping for, uh, by the time that we're done with this conversation.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, one of the things that I felt after reading your book is I felt like I understood myself better. I felt validated and seen in terms of the struggles that I had making friends when I was in middle school and high school and college keeping friends, and so I'm just super excited about this conversation because especially talking about that tension and frustration.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
That thing that we can't quite put our finger on. Why are girls mean? Why is it hard to connect with women? Why do friends come in and out of my life? Do I need to have a breakup? Like, what is up with the tension? Why do I miss people that I'm no longer friends with? I can't wait to unpack this, and where I wanna start is you have such an interesting career. How on earth-
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... did you find yourself-... in a career where you're writing books, researching, and teaching about female friendship.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Um, first, let me say that becoming a friendship coach was certainly not on my vision board when I was 10, okay?
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Definitely something I fell into. I actually started as a high school English teacher, and so I had tenth and twelfth graders who I was teaching, and I noticed that between classes and after school, the number one thing the girls wanted to talk to me about was friendship stuff. So I didn't realize that at the time, I was kind of unofficially coaching them through their weird, awkward friendship drama. And so the classroom was kind of the first place where I saw how issues of connection and belonging directly impact everything else. Uh, their attendance, 'cause you're not even coming to school if you don't feel like you belong somewhere.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Um, their confidence, their academic performance, their mood, all related back to whether or not they felt like they had people at school. And so I did that for about six years and became the academic chair, and then I left and I got into the world of public relations. And I always joke that I made the foolish mistake of thinking, you know, "I'm leaving that teenage drama behind-"
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
"... 'cause I'm working with adult women," you know? (laughs) And it wasn't long before I realized that despite the fact that these women were charismatic, high achieving extroverts, they too were secretly dealing with friendship stuff. And so I just thought, "Wow, at every stage of womanhood, we're trying to figure out how do I better relate to the women around me?" It's not an age thing. It, it feels like the great equalizer. It doesn't matter your background or, or generation. And so for the past seven years, uh, I've been leveraging my background in education to study what the research has to say about women's cooperation, communication, and conflict.
- 7:34 – 11:56
Understanding Male vs. Female Friendships
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
- MRMel Robbins
So are women and men's friendships different?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
They are. They are. At first, I wanna say because I know when we get into, like, the differences between genders, we're all looking for the same thing. We all want support, we wanna have a good time, we want people who offer a sense of ease to our lives. But the research continues to show that there are some differences. I think the main theme I've seen in the research is in terms of intimacy of these friendships, very different. Um, with women, they do experience more depth in platonic intimacy than men tend to in their same-sex friendships. Um, women tend to be more dyadic, so we're one-to-one, which accounts-
- MRMel Robbins
Wait, wait, dyadic? What is that word?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Yeah. So the-
- MRMel Robbins
You're an English teacher so-
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Yeah. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... I'm gonna have to, like, be like, "Okay, wait, what?"
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
So like a dyad, D-Y-A-D, dyad, so one-to-one. We tend to couple off and that accounts for that depth we experience, right? 'Cause we're in this private, intimate vault, the two of us. Whereas men tend to congregate in larger groups, they tend to collect a, a bunch of casual friendships, and when you're in a big group, it affords you a certain level of anonymity, okay? When I've got all the guys in the room, right? Um, women also in our conversations we are more likely than men to talk about things like our mental and physical health and family, things like that. That tends to center the self, those conversations. But men are more likely than women to talk about current events and sports which decenters self. So even in our conversations, it's very intimate, and then they find that women tend to integrate their friends into their lives to the degree of a sibling, men to the degree of a cousin. And so, you know, I'm certainly not saying that men don't also experience these deep friendships, they do, but more often than not, you'll see that with women.
- MRMel Robbins
You just threw so much at us based on the research-
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... that made perfect sense. And if you're listening and you're a guy and you've always wondered, "Why does my partner or my girlfriend have so much drama? Why did my sister have so many problems?" There was so much in what you just shared with us, like even just the fact that it's true. Like, if I think about my brother or my husband or my son, they do kinda just travel in groups.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And, like, if I think about myself, it's like since the history of time, I've been searching for that best friend. I've been pairing off into one person, and I'm sure we're gonna dig into this, but even just understanding that the research is really bearing out that we tend to go one-to-one and the men and boys in our life tend to operate in groups and what you just said I thought was genius about how if you're in a group, there is a bit of anonymity.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
But if you're with just one person or small groups of people that you feel this deep sense of belonging to, there's a lot more vulnerability and a lot more that seems to be at stake. I know I've certainly felt that.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Yeah, it's, it's hard to, to hide when it's me and you at coffee, and it's very reciprocal. If it's just you and I, you know, you talk, I talk. There's no, uh, um, uh, confusion around whose turn it is to share. I am more deeply known here. I am more accountable here because it's me and you. And I think that's also why we kinda see that running joke, you know, where your husband comes home from hanging out with the boys and you're like, "Oh my gosh. So did they have the baby? Why did they divorce?" And he's like, "Oh, I don't know. I didn't ask." You know?
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
So it's like a running joke, but there's some truth to that.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, and you also said this thing about how male relationships, friendships tend to be more like a cousin.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And your relationship with the girls or women in your life is more like a sibling and sisters fight.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
That's right.
- MRMel Robbins
And sisters have drama.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
That's right.
- MRMel Robbins
And yet there's a big difference between what happens with your sister and what happens when there's tension or jealousy or possessiveness with a friend.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, one of the things that you've researched that I'd like to start with is that you found that there's this framework. There are three affinities, you call them, that are necessary parts of female friendship. So can you explain that?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Yes, so I call it the three affinities of female friendship, and I got really excited when I found this because I started to notice that it didn't matter which discipline I was looking at, uh, anthropology, sociology, psychology, I kept seeing these themes emerge. And I got really excited because I saw the
- 11:56 – 24:29
The 3 Affinities of Female Friendship
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
same three things keep popping up in terms of what women highly prioritize in their friendships and what makes them close, and by extension, if these three things are not there, it's probably the reason why there's a little tension, a little conflict. And so those three things are symmetry, support, and secrecy.
- MRMel Robbins
Symmetry, support, and secrecy.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Yes. So with symmetry, women really value these feelings of sameness and balance and reciprocity and egalitarianism, okay? We're- we're all equal. We're the same. You are me. You know, even if you go to a bar and you see women talking, you're overhearing them say, you know, "Me too." "Oh my God, same." "Me too," so thriving on that I am you, you are me. Um, and then when that symmetry shifts or we start to sense like, oh, we're on different paths, or she's maybe not like me, that tension of- of we're not in the same lane, what's going on here? Um, so symmetry's really powerful, um, and that egalitarianism piece in symmetry, feeling like equals. So if you have a woman who you feel like she's starting to be judgy about your parenting or your business choices-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
... I mean, the undertone or the subtext there is that her choices are better, are superior, right? She's coaching you or talking down to you 'cause we're supposed to be, we're the same, we're equals.
- MRMel Robbins
But does it also happen that it's not that she's necessarily talking down to you, but that you're also beating yourself up because you're like-
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
100%.
- MRMel Robbins
... oh, well, she's better looking and, you know, all, everybody's attracted to her, or she's getting more money than I am? And so you start to feel like not only are we not equal, but I'm now looking at you, and your example is a reason why I'm now beating myself up and feeling less-
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
100%, and so much of this is perception 'cause maybe she's doing nothing wrong-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
... but because of things happening in your life, you're perceiving this imbalance, right? So much of it is- is subjective. Um-
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, that was m- I- I was a walking friendship red flag.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Oh, yeah?
- MRMel Robbins
You could've had an entire section of this book called Melanie Schneeberger-
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... which is a mouthful of a name. That was my maiden name. I saw everybody as a threat.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
Like, I- I literally don't think I had that symmetry in a lot of my friendships, and I can see how if you don't feel like we're in this together, then it would create this conflict and tension in your relationship with somebody else.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Sure because how do I befriend the threat? That- that doesn't go together. So seeing you as an extension of myself and seeing women in general as an extension of myself, I am you, you are me, you're not my competition, I mean, it directly impacts the way that we engage with our friendships. So that- that symmetry piece is really important. Uh, and then we have support. You know, there's some research that tells us that the number one thing women look for in their same-sex friendships is emotional support.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
So that means if there's nothing else, I expect you have my back. I expect some shows of solidarity, some gestures of- of emotional help. Um, what makes that tricky is we so often don't, uh, articulate what support looks like because I think that as another woman, you oughta know. I shouldn't have to say it, you know? That will certainly make things complicated.
- MRMel Robbins
Every time you say something, I'm thinking about a dynamic that's negative with a former friend or something that I did-
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... because even when you said that sentence about support, I mean, how many times have we sat alone and then when a friend comes to you and is like, "I didn't even know you were struggling," you're like, "Well, you should've..." You know, you just kind of feel this sense of, well, you should've known.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
But you never said anything.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
I wonder how much of that is, you know how they say women have that sixth sense? If I believe it to be true, that women's intuition, which I think we do have, do I believe that you should be picking up my cues 'cause we have that intuition? So should I have to say the thing? And I think a lot of us subscribe to the idea that if we are close, me having to say what I want detracts from the closeness we're supposed to have. So you just knowing it without me saying it is evidence of how much you get me. But we don't expect that in any other relational context, so it just feels really unfair that your friends should be mind readers, but everybody else, you anticipate needing to communicate what you need. And so I- I think if we can keep in mind that you'll never get to a point of closeness that transcends a need to communicate, you're gonna have to say the thing.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, I also just keep, I don't know why the word silent treatment is coming up-
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... but I feel as though if a woman feels like she's not getting the support that she deserves from another female friend, one of the go-to immature behaviors and behaviors that create conflict and tension is you withdraw.
- 24:29 – 32:57
Moving Through a Friendship Breakup
- MRMel Robbins
Do you have an opinion about friendship breakups? Like, do we need to actually stop being friends with people?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
W- Well, I'll tell you this. Uh, we do have friendships that end. I think we know that intellectually, like, "Oh, friends don't last forever," but when it happens, it becomes very difficult to make sense of.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
I see that we have a lot of shame around that. I think we put a lot of value on longevity in friendships, so when it's over, we start to think, "What's wrong with me?"
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
"What did I do wrong that I can't keep a friendship going?" I always encourage women to think about, um, if you're feeling that shame over not being able to make a friendship last, how do you measure success in a friendship? Is it one that never ends? Is it one where we loved each other really well during this time that we were friends? But friendship breakups are, are really difficult, and sometimes they do dissolve.
- MRMel Robbins
Why are they so difficult?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
I'm thinking about a friend of mine that was my most favorite human being when I was in college, and we even, to this day, have matching tattoos.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And we had a very bad breakup, and this was over 30 years ago.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm.
- MRMel Robbins
And I still think about her.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
Is that normal? Why am I doing that?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Yeah. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
'Cause I don't think about the boyfriends that I had huge breakups with-
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... and they were inside me, for crying out loud, and, you know, I, like, had the love, like, drug inside of us. Like, why is it the breakup with a female friend? 'Cause my husband has grown distant from people. He's had breakups with people. He doesn't think about them.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
Why do we do this?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Okay, so-
- MRMel Robbins
A- am I normal, Danielle? That's what I'm asking you.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Yeah (laughs) . Uh, you are. You are. I have some of those too, and I kind of maybe see them as, like, my ones that got away, maybe like a platonic-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
... "Uh, could we have worked that out? I still see things and it makes me think of her."
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Um, my theory is that because of how deeply we integrate our women friends into our lives, naturally, I'm still thinking about you when that's over, right? Um, and there are even some theories that find that women's relationships become a part of their self-concept. So, how I see myself is largely through the lens of how you see and experience me. And if you think that I am interesting and funny and, and lovable, um, and then that friendship ends, or you elected to leave, I'm questioning, "Am I still interesting and lovable and funny if she would leave me?" Um, and so I think it's natural to still, uh, grieve over losing friends, to still be confused about what went wrong, what we could've done differently, and then also have that kind of influence the way we engage in friendships moving forward, right? If you have a friend who told you, "You're just too much-"
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
"... am I going into new friendships a little tapered down, 'cause I don't wanna be too much."
- 32:57 – 40:36
Navigating Comparison Within Friendships
- MRMel Robbins
is, why are women so jealous of each other?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
Or at least, why do we... Why can you tell? Like guys might be jealous of, of some guy's car or his house or vacations or, you know, that he's just a good dude that a lot of people like, but you don't feel it.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm. You know, first I'll say that I don't think, um, being competitive or envious is exclusive to women. Uh, we're all competitive, we all get a little envious, and I think it's because we use our friends as a measure of our own progress, you know? So you're very close, in my proximity, so it kind of shows me, "Oh, are we having babies at this rate? We're having b- Oh, how am I doing with my, with my money and my style?" I'm looking to my friends purely from a sociological perspective to see, "Am I on track," right?
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
So we're all feeling a little like we're using our friends to gauge how we're doing. Um, I think what's so hard around envy that women experience with one another, I do wonder to what degree the patriarchy, uh, influences that. If I'm hearing voices telling me I need to look a certain way and have a certain progress in my life, and my friends are in very close proximity, I'm kind of projecting that onto them. Um, if they're making certain choices or making certain advances and I'm not, I have them to look at to see how I'm doing. Um, but I wonder also how much room we have to express that without looking like the jealous friend. So we harbor it secretly-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
... or we monitor, um, because I don't want to look like I am jealous, so I keep it inside, and that comes out in terms of resentment or shade or frenemies, right? Um, so it does become kind of, kind of sticky.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, I wanna build on that because I have a theory about this.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Okay.
- MRMel Robbins
And especially given that you were a English teacher in a high school, and you're a mom, and I'm a mom of two daughters, and you have a daughter, here's my theory. So if you take it as fact that the average age that a girl gets her period is the age of 12, like that's a huge life-changing event. And what happens when you get your period, at least in today's world, is it's like a very public event. It seems like everybody knows in your class, all the girls know, even the boys know, and your body starts to change, and you feel this loss of control that is very public. And then there's an added layer around the fact that what do people say when you get your period? You're 12 years old, and one of the first things they say, "Oh, well, now you're a woman. Oh, you're a woman now." So you become sexualized, and that also, I believe, in a very subconscious and subtle but not so subtle way changes your relationship to other women. And I personally believe that two things happen. Number one, it's been very well researched, as you know, how girls' confidence drops off a cliff between the age of 12 and 14. The age of 12, boys and girls have the exact same levels of confidence. By the age of 14, girls experience a 46% drop in confidence, but check out what they're also saying in this research about friends, that 60% of girls by the age of 14...... are not confident that they can make new friends. Here's a girl who's 18, this would have been somebody in your English class, "I'm not confident in making friends because I'm for, afraid of making a mistake. I feel like everybody's so smart and pretty and I'm just this ugly girl without friends."
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
"I feel that if I acted like my true self that no one would like me." And there's this memory that I have of being in middle school, and it's kinda when the dances start. And I don't know if it's like this now, I mean, I'm literally talking 40 years ago, but when the slow songs would start, there's this phenomenon where the guys pick a girl to dance with.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And it's in that moment that you start to see that there are girls that get all the attention, and I know in those moments, I literally hated my best friends.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm.
- MRMel Robbins
Because they were getting picked and I wasn't. And I, I feel like there is something that happens then that really, in many ways, makes you feel like you're against the other girls, in competition for something other than grades, other than sports. It's this social and sexual status that feels largely out of your control.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
At least, that's what I felt, and I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts about that.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
There are researchers that lean into intersexual competition.
- MRMel Robbins
What does that mean? What's intersexual mean?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
So when you have women who are vying for the attention of males, and some would argue that it's a purely evolutionary thing-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
... that when you do, you know, begin to menstruate and your, your body is now showing and developing that that does now attract the attention of males, um, so I could see that being the reason why during that middle school period we feel like something's shifting, something's going on. Um, you know, I even talked to a woman, her name is Dr. Hannah Bradshaw, and we even looked at, you know, guys girls versus girls girls, and she also said that-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
... during that stage, um, how women perceive each other, maybe we start treating her differently if she does draw the attention of men and start hanging out with them. But she finds that it's a bidirectional relationship that, you know, girls who are around boys and boys come sniffing around and they're hanging out, we find ourself looking at the girl like, "Oof, who does she think she is?" Because she's around these males.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
But if you ask the girl why she's hanging out with males all the time, she'll say that she's over there because the girls are mistreating her. So it's a sort of refuge and protection. So it's kinda like this, this thing that continues to emerge in a cycle, and I definitely see that too.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, it's an important thing to talk about, because I think these feelings are very normal.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- 40:36 – 47:24
Managing Disappointment in Close Relationships
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
because that means you matter. This is your alliance. You have somebody, um, who sees you as important. Um, and so that best friend phenomenon, I definitely see emerge at that stage.
- MRMel Robbins
What would you say to the person who's listening to you right now who either experienced not having a best friend or not feeling like they were part of a good friend group or they're seeing somebody that they care about experiencing it right now?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
I would tell that woman, um, "You are not alone." There's some research that finds that 40% of adults don't have a best friend. So there's a lot of people out here who don't have that maybe in this particular season of their life. It doesn't make you any less important, um, or worthy or lovable to not have that one person. And if you don't, ask yourself if you can get all the things you need from the collective rather than the singular.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
I think it's a romantic notion, this idea of the one person who offers you multiple things, she's your mom friend, your happy hour buddy. It's very cool when that one person satisfies all those things. But until maybe you find that person, can you find that from the collective, from multiple people, you're getting laughter, you're getting growth opportunities-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
... you're sharing resources? Are you getting that from the village? Um, because maybe right now, that's more important than having the one person who satisfies all the things. And so I, I just need that woman to know you are not alone, there are so many people who are in the same boat, and to resist the urge to internalize that and to wonder what's wrong with you because you don't have that right now.
- MRMel Robbins
And if you're a parent or you're just worried about a girl or a young woman who feels like she's just been iced out of her friend group, I- I remember when our daughters were in high school of, one of my close, close friends, her daughter was going through something, and her friend group dropped her.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And I just remember how many tears her mother and I had over what do you do. I mean, this kid has been basically, you know, the words feel so dramatic, kicked out of, excluded, just dropped by a friend group. What would you say to a person that feels like that's just happened to them?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
It's really hard, especially as a parent, to not want to drive up to that school... (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
... and find those girls and be like, "What the heck is your problem?" It's hard.
- MRMel Robbins
So you's saying we shouldn't text them-
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
I'm saying don't- (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... or their parents or get involved and is that what you're saying?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Yeah. No, it's hard, right, especially as a mama bear, you're like, "I want my girl to feel confident and to, to belong, and how dare people reject her." That is painful.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
And it's painful to watch your babies go through anything. You know, in the meantime, because we, you know, a lot of times we talk about handling what you can control, that is hurtful, and there's even research that finds that being rejected socially, uh, lights up the same parts of your brain as experiencing physical pain. So, you know, she's not being dramatic. It is hurtful to not have people, and it's even worse sometimes when you don't know what you did wrong.
- MRMel Robbins
And so, like, what do you do or what should you say or do you not say anything at all? Do you just, like, give the person space to grieve? Do you acknowledge it? Like I- I didn't, I don't know what to do.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Yeah. Yeah. Well, one of the things we can do is, is to share with that young woman who's in that situation is what she can do right now is to continue to show up, let's say, in this s- situation at school, to show up to school, to be kind to others, to confidently go about her day, and to have connections with people, and if she feels comfortable going to one of the young women who she trusts most in the group, 'cause sometimes we feel like it's us versus this large capital G-
- MRMel Robbins
Yes. Uh-huh.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
... Group. So go to a person in the group who you trust most and say, "Hey, you know, I'm noticing we're not talking as much. What's going on?" Right? And to ask. And at that point, they're responsible for letting us know what it is or not, but if there are people, they would let us know. If they were your people, they wouldn't take pleasure in isolating you. If they were your people, they'd call you in and not push you out. And so it could be a good exercise for her, uh, in terms of identifying who your people are. And so suffering any kind of loss is really painful, and like we said, especially women's friendships 'cause we're so deep.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
But these are not your people. And it- and it's tricky because you think, "But no, Mom, they are. Those are my girls." But your people would never take delight in pushing you out, rejecting you, watching you agonize over what you did wrong, and not coming to relieve some of that confusion and distress. They're not your people.
- MRMel Robbins
I had my, one of our daughters use this term a ladder, and she was remarking about how she's in this period of her life, and she lives in a part of the world and is in an industry where she says that it's like you're with your people on a certain rung-
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... and we're all in it together, and we commiserate and we're bonded and we're kind of sorta supporting one another, but then the second somebody goes to the next rung in the ladder either in this city in a social climbing group or in this industry and you get some success, it's like the rung that you were with disappears.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And even seeing that, that somebody that you thought you were close with and next thing you know, you're part of a bigger group, and next thing you know, you're on the outside but they're staying on the inside-
- 47:24 – 54:54
Jealousy and Envy in Friendships
- MRMel Robbins
as close to a friend is really confusing and painful, and so turning somebody into a villain-
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... and blaming their behavior is, uh, I think in many ways, your subconscious attempt to actually cut off the pain that you're feeling 'cause you can't explain it if it's just we're just growing apart. That doesn't feel as complete as they axed me out. She's now, like, thinks she's better than me.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
That is, I think, something that we do to process that confusing feeling that I used to be close to you and now we're just not and I don't know what to do with it because I miss that closeness, and this isn't making sense. So I'm gonna just leverage some anger and some judgment here. What do you do when you're jealous of your friends?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Yes, okay. This is a big one. So first, uh...I like to look at the difference between envy and jealousy because I know sometimes we use them synonymously. So the way I kind of separate the two is that envy involves two people and jealousy involves three. So if I'm envious, that means you have something I want. This is between you and me. And jealousy means I'm scared I'm gonna lose what I have to this third party that's gonna come in and take my friend. So, like, I'm jealous of my friend. Maybe a new girl enters the, the villa and I'm like, "Oh, what's happening here?"
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Um, but whenever we are feeling jealous or envious of a friend, I think the first thing to do if we're feeling envious is to normalize that. And I know people say that a lot, but something I've noticed, especially with women, is that almost feels like the cardinal sin. Like, we can talk about every other kind of friendship conflict, but don't accuse me of being jealous. I don't even want to be in the proximity of being, you know, an envious friend, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
So we've gotta normalize, if you have somebody you love who's closely integrated into your life and she starts to have things that you kind of want for yourself, that it's normal to feel that way. And I think it can signal to us our values and desires.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
So if you, you know, get pregnant, I've been wanting a baby and I'm like, "Oof, I felt that pinch," totally normal 'cause that's something you want for your life. Totally normal.
- MRMel Robbins
What do you do with it though?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
I think the difference becomes-
- MRMel Robbins
Because we try to... We then avoid somebody, right?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Sure, sure.
- MRMel Robbins
A meeting... If somebody's renovating their kitchen, I now can't deal with being-
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Yep.
- MRMel Robbins
... at your beautiful house when I go home to my hovel.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
Like, somebody's getting pregnant and I just had a miscarriage-
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Yep.
- MRMel Robbins
... I don't wanna be near you.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Yep.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, somebody just got engaged and I just broke off a relationship of two years-
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... I don't wanna be near you. And I struggled with this profoundly. I wanted to be happy for my friends.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Sure.
- MRMel Robbins
I wanted to celebrate and be able to authentically feel joy for somebody else.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- 54:54 – 58:55
Approaching Friendship Conflicts with Care
- MRMel Robbins
"Another reason why our friendships can be fragile, especially compared to male friendships, is because we have high expectations. A review of 36 studies found that women wanted more from their close relationships than men did, especially when it comes to reciprocity and self-disclosure, which means we are setting and expected to meet high standards, and this means that we also register more relational violations, identifying more wrongs in our friendships. One study, researchers observed college dorms to monitor the number of roommate reassignment requests. Most of them came from women."
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
And so this research, to me, suggests that we have these super high expectations of people.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
A lot of times we don't even tell them what they are, and then when they don't meet our expectations, the research (laughs) bears out that we literally are finding wrongs.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Do you think that's part of the problem?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Absolutely. And that research goes on to say that this is in both romantic and platonic relationships, how these higher expectations of what's supposed to happen and identifying more wrongs than a man might in our relationships. Um, but there are some things that we can do to kind of close that gap. The first is, how often are these disappointments happening?
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
The second is, what are my expectations and have I expressed them? Which we said earlier, a lot of people feel like, "But I shouldn't have to." Sometimes you do. And then also, can I communicate my disappointment afterward? You have permission to say to a friend, "Yeah, I'm kinda bummed 'cause I thought you'd come to my event last night and I was excited to have you there." You have permission to say that. And the right people will express to you, "Oh, my gosh, I had no idea that it mattered that much."
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Sometimes we underestimate how much the thing meant to you.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
"I thought that, you know, you have events all the time. Why, I didn't know that you care." So I'm more interested in the response after you say the thing, not just that the friend disappointed you. Once I give you that data and I say, "I thought you would show up," or, "When my dad passed, I wanted you here. I didn't want the texts."
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
"I wish you came and sat with me."
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
How do they respond? What's next? That's what I'm more interested in. Is there an expression of regret? Is there an effort to repair? Is this a moment to help facilitate, "Oh, okay, now I have a better understanding of what you're looking for"? That's what I'm more concerned about, as opposed to, "The friend disappointed me." Um, and I think that can help and maybe stop us from prematurely ending some friendships.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, see, I think this is a lot of what you also write about in your book, is that all of this conflict and these moments that are normal and human and in every friendship, it's a give and a take, we both have a little bit of responsibility here-
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... in terms of what's happening, that it's either an opportunity for you to distance yourself or an opportunity for you to lean in and actually join in with somebody. And, you know, one of the things as I was really researching the let them theory, and I know personally I have lived in fear of disappointing people my whole life and bent myself into knots to try to make sure nobody's disappointed, is that all of a sudden it occurred to me, well, isn't it a good thing if a friend is disappointed that you didn't show up?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm.
- MRMel Robbins
Doesn't that just mean they wanted you there?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
Isn't that a sign that somebody really cares about you and that you matter? Versus what I turned it into my whole life, which is somehow it's some indictment against me. Like, if you can look at it that way, if somebody respects you enough to say, "I was disappointed that you forgot my birthday," and they wanna talk to you about it, to me, that's a green flag in a friendship.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Absolutely.
- MRMel Robbins
And, you know, u- unless of course you're like, "You ba-ba-da..." You know, they're doing all that stuff.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
But
- 58:55 – 1:02:43
Recognizing Unhealthy Dynamics in Friendship
- MRMel Robbins
what are warning signs that a friend is not or no longer good for you?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm. Um, one of the ones I like to lead with is, if you don't like who you are when you're together.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
I know I've been a part of friendships where I am not acting like myself when we're- when we get together, and I don't know what prompts that. It, like, just happens so stealthily. But when I'm with other people, I enjoy who I am. I'm proud of who I am.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
So the first indicator is, you don't like who you are when you're together. Another might be, after you're spending time together, you find yourself totally depleted. It is exhausting. Whether she's super negative or you find yourself, um, doing the mental labor of performing and you feel like you can, hoo, finally relax, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Um, that could be a sign that it's not good for you. If you feel like, um, certain goals you have for yourself are being delayed by being in this friendship, whatever that looks like for you. I know sometimes we have friends who are like, "Oh, you're not like you used to be. You used to be fine with this. You used to be..." And there are things I want to do with my life, new directions and goals that I have, but I feel like I'd be betraying my friends by pursuing these new goals that-
- MRMel Robbins
Hm.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
... I have for myself. That can be something to look at as well. And then the last thing I'll say is, um, whenever trust feels like it's so lost that there's no way to, to recover it and get that back, that can be difficult, uh, for maintaining a, a relationship.
- MRMel Robbins
Uh, as I'm listening to you, I'm like, "You're right. Why do I ignore those things?"
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
"And stay in it and work harder?"
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard because I know, you know, when we see these videos and on social media and it's like, uh, "Nine Signs She's Toxic" or "Nine Signs..." You know, one thing I wanna say about the whole toxic thing, um, is sometimes it's not that this person's so toxic, even though there are people with, with ongoing toxic behaviors, but sometimes it's just our dynamic.Maybe it's not her, it's just there's something that-
- MRMel Robbins
It's us.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
... happens when we come together and it's not clicking. "I don't like who I am and, and something's weird here." But all your other friends, eh, that works for you.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
They think you're delightful, that's awesome.
- MRMel Robbins
Right. Right.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
But there's something about our make-up, like quite literally our chemistry, that when we come together it doesn't work. And so I think it goes back to what we said earlier, it's easier when you can easily identify the villain to separate and make sense of what's happening. It's harder to just say, "I just think it's us. I don't enjoy it and I don't like who I become."
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Um, and that's harder sometimes because there's more nuance and gray area.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes. And it requires you to take responsibility-
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Sure.
- MRMel Robbins
... for your part in it. And what I love about that is that I hate it when people label other people toxic. There's behavior that's toxic.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
But the finger pointing and the ghosting and the just dropping a friend without a conversation, in my opinion, that's a sign that you're the one that's immature and engaging in toxic behavior.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
That not actually trying to work it out or have the conversation that, "There's something off with us, let's take a little space." And as I've gotten older, my opinion about friendship ending has changed. I just feel like friendships are very flexible, they come, they go. If something ends, at some point in the future, a decade from now, who knows what's gonna happen-
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- 1:02:43 – 1:07:49
How to Deal with a Controlling Friend
- MRMel Robbins
to talk about having a friendship with somebody who's controlling or possessive-
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... because I do think that's a predominantly female thing in friendship. What do you do if you've got that friend who has your location and you're out to dinner with somebody else and all of a sudden you get that text, "Hey, I see that you're right by me. What's up?" Like, "How come you didn't call me? What are you doing?"
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And you're like, "Oh, my God." Like, "Dude."
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Yeah. I think a lot of what lives up under that controlling nature is anxiety.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
An anxious attachment which women are, um, more susceptible to. And so I'm anxious about you being away and, "Where did you go?" and, "What do you think?" and, "What's going on?" And so, you know, when we have a friend who's controlling us, controlling decisions we make, she's anxious over the fact that you're making decisions that are not what she would make, you're doing what she doesn't want you to do. There's a lot of anxiety about not being able to handle or manage or predict the outcome.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
And having that tendency needs to get in check because it's hard to be in relationship with the person who needs you to think like they do, be where they need you to be, be available when they want you to be available, because the whole thing about healthy friendships is there's space for us to be together and that interdependence and there's also space for me to be myself. And also, and always trying to do that dance between us and our togetherness and me and my individuality. But when you have people who begin to suffocate that part-
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
... there's, there's going to be an issue.
- MRMel Robbins
Danielle, what do you do when you have a controlling friend and their controlling nature is really starting to get annoying?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
It helps to package it as an invitation and not an accusation.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, wait a minute. An invitation? Not an accusation? How do I do that? (laughs)
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
(laughs) So because it's easy to say, you know, "You're texting me all the time. You have to stop." Or, "I'm overwhelmed." Right? So I'm gonna invite you to participate in the way that feels good to me. So maybe instead I'll say, "Hey, I know you like to check in, uh, throughout the day, but I think it's best for me to check in on the weekends. Like, I love our little phone calls on the weekend. Do you wanna do Saturdays or Sundays?" That's an affirmative boundary on, "Where would you, when would you like to talk? Because for me it's overwhelming." Right? Um, and that's me kind of gracefully moving you toward what I need you to do 'cause-
- MRMel Robbins
Are you just... Literally, I just felt like this class in session-
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... with Professor Bayer Jackson. I mean, I just felt like a teacher who sort of redirects you with a smile.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
(laughs) Which, an- and you know, that's a part of it too is sometimes playfulness... W- when I hear people talk about conflict, it sounds really scary-
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
... and s- and serious.
- MRMel Robbins
That's why I avoid it.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Yeah. Very... Well, that makes sense like- (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
And then I show up with this fake smile even though I'm jealous of your whole life.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
You know, eh, where appropriate we can address some things with playfulness, and I think it's wise to do that sometimes because it helps us to relax, right? If you're being playful it shows that there's no threat around 'cause we can be playful. You can't be playful and feel in danger at the same time.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay. Well, here's another one. Here's a big one. You've been invited to something-
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... and your friend has not. So what do I do if I know this group is not gonna invite this person?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm. That's always really tricky, and we have to take into account things like, um, "I know that they are not friends, but they're inviting me," so, you know, and you're trying to figure out, "How do I maintain a sense of loyalty but also be in the..."
- 1:07:49 – 1:18:15
How to Nurture and Sustain Long-Term Friendships
- MRMel Robbins
long-term friendships with women, especially as you're moving through different phases of life? What's the research say?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Yeah. So life transitions are actually a big reason why women's friendships end. And I also believe that there are a lot more, uh, prominent transitions in a woman's life.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
And it becomes difficult sometimes to stay together during those disruptions throughout the lifecycle. So her getting married and then getting really, really involved with that spouse, and now you're like, "Oh, what are we doing here?" You know, you, you, "We're not spending time together." Her having a baby, and now the topic of conversation is, is butt paste and bottles, and I'm not interested, right? So it can be hard to show up in those ways. I think one thing that we have to do is give ourselves grace because we've never been friends like this before.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
We've never had to be friends with you having to also have this little baby you have to keep alive at home. So the first thing to honor, "Okay, we've never done this. Let's get to the business of figuring it out." Um, I also see people experience so much dissatisfaction because you're comparing your present to how it used to be. And that chapter is no more, or it won't return for a long time, right, while this new season is in. And I have people feel a lot of, uh, disappointment around that.
- MRMel Robbins
Hm.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
"Oh, it's not like it used to be. It's not like it used to be."
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Well, we know, again, that friendships change, but when it happens, it's really difficult to adapt. Um, and then the last thing I would say if you feel a transition coming on with your friendship is it's okay to say it because that takes a lot of, uh, power away from the fear.
- MRMel Robbins
Hm.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
So to say to a friend, like, "Listen. I know you're booed up now. I love that for you, but can we still do FaceTimes on Fridays? Because I miss you, and I don't see you like I used to." And I think that feels scary because it's more vulnerable.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
It's easier to say, "Oh, got a man and forgot all about me." It's harder to say, "I really miss you, and I'm, I'm happy for you. I love how happy he makes you, but I miss us."
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
"What can we do about that?" And it kinda takes the power out of the fear of what happens next with us during this transition.
- MRMel Robbins
One of the things that I love that you've said a couple times is, first of all, you normalize how common it is to not have a, quote, best friend.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
But to encourage us all to look to the greater group and the collective to provide all the different things we need, from friendship, to support, to someone to talk about, like, global warm... Like, whatever, the issues you care about, somebody to have fun with.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
That you don't just rely on one person. And one thing I'd love to know is, how can someone feel closeness to a new female friend?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Uh, well, the first thing I'm gonna say is look at those three affinities of female friendship. How can you introduce those from the very beginning? How can I highlight our similarities and play into that?
- MRMel Robbins
Hm.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
How can I offer tangible demonstrations of support? How can I make it safe here for us to share with one another? Those are things that help us to feel close in those friendships. And then, again, and I know this continues to be a theme in what I'm saying, is you can announce it. I, I... We've gotta get permission to announce it. You can say to a friend, um, "I love getting to know more and more about you." Or, like, "Every time we get together, I'm, I'm learning more about you, and I'm loving it. I'm loving getting to know you." I mean, sometimes saying it upfront helps the other person to buy in because so often we wonder, "Do they like me? Do they not? Like, are they as invested as I am?" So let me remove the mystery. "I really enjoy you. Do you wanna do this more often?" And sometimes making it plain, uh, I think kind of relieves that pressure, the mystery, the game-playing, right? "I initiated last time, but is that too much?" There, there's no time for that. So I think even explicitly expressing to somebody, "I'm so excited to get to know you more. I'm always learning a little something every time we get together." I think that sometimes can expedite the process-
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
... of being close friends.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes. You also had interesting research about how women's friendships, in particular when you're younger, are a huge predictor for how your relationship with your significant other is gonna play out. Can you say more about that?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Yeah. So we tend to put friendship into the margins of our lives and see it as, like, this extra recreational thing that's nonessential, but it really is. Um, and it has benefits that we might not even suspect. Um, and there is a study that found that the number one predictor of the success of your romantic adult relationships is how well you did with your same-sex friends in adolescence.
- MRMel Robbins
Really?
- DJDanielle Bayard Jackson
Likely because things do tend to be segregated by gender in school. You know, "Girls go over here. Boys go over here." I'm mostly with girls, you know, in school, in these different groups and, and class. That's where I'm developing social skills. I'm learning to negotiate. I'm learning how to communicate. How do I show up as a friend? I'm learning that here. So if I struggled with that in these formative years, it's likely that those same skills that I need to have a successful romantic relationship, some of that stuff's gonna travel with me. So these are... You know, it's an important time to figure out with other women when we're young, how do we do this? Because there are surprising ways that it impacts everything else.
Episode duration: 1:28:54
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode kIiGtwPLSvI
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome