The Mel Robbins PodcastMarried, Dating, or Single: The Best Relationship Advice You Will Ever Receive
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
70 min read · 13,846 words- 0:00 – 1:57
Meet the Guest
- TRTerry Real
I'm not an empathic therapist. Uh, you want empathy? Uh, oh, I'm sorry. You cracked. Patriarchy cracked. It doesn't mean there was something wrong with you. It means there was something wrong with what you were both trying to live up to.
- MRMel Robbins
[upbeat music] Terry Real is one of the most sought-after couples therapist in the world. His private clients pay $7,000 for a single session. He's gonna explain exactly why none of your relationships in the past have worked.
- TRTerry Real
Listen, we've never wanted more from relationships than we do right now. We wanna be lifelong lovers, but we're trying to do that in the context of a culture that is not a relationship-cherishing culture. There is a relationship technology. There's a set of skills that work better. It works better to ask your partner for what you want than to criticize them for what they're doing wrong. All relationships are an endless dance of harmony, disharmony, and repair.
- MRMel Robbins
Most couples are in harmony and disharmony. Harmony and disharmony, but no repair.
- TRTerry Real
No repair, because that's where the skills come in. Getting the love you want literally means being a pioneer. We are interconnected. We are interdependent. Healthy self-esteem comes from the inside out. You have worth, you have dignity, because you're here on this planet, you're a human being, no better or worse than anybody else. Remember that, and have that give you courage.
- MRMel Robbins
Please help me welcome Terry Real to The Mel Robbins Podcast.
- TRTerry Real
Oh, my gosh, it's a thrill to be here, and bless you, and thank you for the good work you're doing for the world.
- MRMel Robbins
Terry, right back at you. Bless you, and thank you for the good work you're doing in the world, and for the good work you're about to help us do in our conversation
- 1:57 – 14:13
Modern Relationships Demand New Skills
- MRMel Robbins
today. And here's where I wanna start: How could my life be different? If I take everything that you are about to teach me today, after 40 years of wisdom, and work, and the things that you have learned, and the truths that you know, how could my life be different if I take it all to heart, and I apply it to relationships and to my day-to-day life?
- TRTerry Real
I'm gonna tell you, and listeners, viewers, uh, the same thing I say to every single couple: I am inviting you on a rarefied path. It's demanding, it's sophisticated, it's skilled, and it leaves the norms of this culture in the dust. Listen, we've never wanted more from relationships than we do right now.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TRTerry Real
Gone are our grandparents, even our parents, companion- side by side, pay the bills, raise the kids, no passion, no communication, fine, stable, good enough. That's gone. We wanna walk hand-in-hand on the beach. We want heart to... We want great sex in 70s and 80s. We wanna be lifelong lovers, but we're trying to do that in the context of a culture that is not a relationship-cherishing culture. We live in a patriarchal, and I'll go into that, individualistic culture that does not cherish relationships. I would like basic relationship skills taught in elementary school, junior high, high. We need to know how to pull off this new ambition of being lifelong lovers. Getting the love you want literally means being a pioneer. If you're a hetero man, it means moving into vulnerability, which means deconstructing masculinity itself. Masculinity means being invulnerable. You open your heart, you are redoing what it means to be a man. As we were speaking, standing up for yourself, not with shrillness, but with love and power, is brand-new work for women in this culture. As a people, we all need in our lives to be pioneers. We don't live relationally in this culture. We are individualistic, and we are patriarchal, meaning the basic model is dominance.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TRTerry Real
We control. We need to trade the dominance model in for the reality of our biospheres. We are interconnected. We are interdependent. If we stay on the dominance model, we will fry this planet. What you're doing in your living room is exactly the same work we need to do across this globe in order to render it a place our grandchildren will wanna live in. It's a great ambition. I, I like to say we have, like, a filet mignon a- ambition and hamburger skills. We need to catch up to ourselves.
- MRMel Robbins
I love that you said, "skills." So there are skills that we can build to have better relationships, and you did, though, say they were demanding.
- TRTerry Real
They are demanding. One of the great lies, uh, is that a long-term relationship is supposed to be spontaneous.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TRTerry Real
Uh, there's l- lip service about having to work on it. But let me ask you a question.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- TRTerry Real
How many times have you heard that relationships take work?
- MRMel Robbins
My whole life.
- TRTerry Real
Yeah. Anybody ever tell you what it was? [laughing] You know?
- MRMel Robbins
[laughing] Actually, no.
- TRTerry Real
Of course not! J- And that's where I come in.... There is a relationship technology. There's a set of skills that work better. For example, and we'll go over it, but just one example: It works better to ask your partner for what you want than to criticize them for what they're doing wrong. Now, who does- listen, in our culture, the way we try and get more of what we want in our relationships is we share our feelings about how miserable [chuckles] we are, that you just blew it. That's how we try and get- eh, that's the worst behavioral mi- I- you don't treat a dog like... How about just punishing a dog every time they get it wrong? [chuckles] No. I talk about three steps of getting what you want. One, this is the important one, dare to rock the boat. We're gonna talk about that.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- TRTerry Real
Dare to tell the truth, but you have to do it skillfully. Two, once your partner's listening, help them out. Teach them what you want. "I would rather you do it this way than that way, honey. Honey," with love. And then three, when they start to give it to you, reward them. Don't criticize them. "Well, you did a half-ass job." "Hey, you did a half-ass job! [chuckles] Isn't that great? Let's get the other cheek on board while we're at it." [laughing]
- MRMel Robbins
[laughing] It seems so simple. Tell the truth, teach your partner what you want, and reward them when they do it, even if it's a half-ass job.
- TRTerry Real
Yeah, that's the best way of getting them to do more. Criticizing them for what they're doing wrong is about the worst way of trying to get them motivated to give you more. But we don't know these basics in this culture. You know, the... I'm a family therapist for 40 years. The father of family therapy was Gregory Bateson, the husband of Margaret, uh, Mead. Uh, and Bateson's whole work, the birth of family therapy, is what he called correcting humankind's, uh, eh, philosophical mistake, which is that we stand apart from nature, and we can control it.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TRTerry Real
Both wrong. And by the way, apropos of, uh, The Let Them Theory, control can be one-up. That tends to be more traditionally male. "Sit down, shut up, and do what I tell you." Control can also be upregulating from the one down. That's codependent, that's enabling, that's trying- getting your partner to... dot, dot, dot. That's traditionally more feminine under patriarchy. Intimacy, here's one of the first things I wanna say: To really move into the intimacy we want means nothing less than moving beyond traditional gender roles for all of us. Women have to move out of resentful accommodation, uh, control, enabling. That's what your book is all about. Uh, and, a- uh, the sort of, um, my generation's early feminists shifted from the one-down, traditionally feminine role to the one-up, traditionally masculine role. I call that individual empowerment.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- TRTerry Real
"I was weak, now I'm strong. Go screw yourself." [chuckles]
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- TRTerry Real
Uh, no. "I was weak, now I'm strong. Let's work together."
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TRTerry Real
"We're a team. I love you." I call that relational empowerment, and in our culture, man, that is new news, and therapy, 12-step sponsors, women's groups, men's groups, all individual empowerment. "I wouldn't put up with that if I was you." Well, that's easy to say. How about, "Roll up your sleeves, you love each other, how are you gonna make this work together?"
- MRMel Robbins
So there were so many things you just said that I wanna dig into. I love this idea of relationship technology and skills that we can build. I also love that you're starting from a place of this larger container that we're all in, which is culture. I also appreciate the fact that the traditional gender roles, that a, quote, "Man is supposed to act this way, a woman's supposed to act that way," that those are leading to a lot of disfat- dissatisfaction-
- TRTerry Real
Yes
- 14:13 – 20:01
The Relationship Skill That Most Lack
- TRTerry Real
The problem is... Okay, so what was going on? This is one of the great things nobody gets. All relationships are an endless dance of harmony, disharmony, and repair. That's what you and Chris lived through, big time.
- MRMel Robbins
All relationships are an endless dance of harmony, disharmony, and repair.
- TRTerry Real
That's correct.
- MRMel Robbins
And here's what I'm going to guess, 'cause as you're listening right now to Terry, as you're watching this on YouTube, first of all, I want you, wherever you are, whether you're single, whether you're heartbroken, whether you're in a marriage that feels like roommates, whether you're recognizing the resentment that is coming up in your relationship, Terry is asking us all to look at where you're at as one giant opportunity. And when you say all relationships are either... or, are an endless dance of harmony, disharmony, and repair, I'm willing to guess, based on my own experience, Terry, [chuckles] being married 29 years, that most couples are in harmony and disharmony. Harmony and disharmony-
- TRTerry Real
That's-
- MRMel Robbins
-but no repair.
- TRTerry Real
No repair, because that's where the skills come in, and we don't know them. But also, two things: first of all, our culture doesn't even acknowledge the disharmony to begin with. A good relationship is all harmony. That's what you thought when you were young-
- MRMel Robbins
That's true
- TRTerry Real
... and you were bitterly disappointed.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes, and aimed it right at him.
- TRTerry Real
Well, of course, he failed you, but you picked him. Uh, [chuckles] I like to say, we all marry our unfinished business.
- MRMel Robbins
Whoa, hold on! We all marry our unfinished business?
- TRTerry Real
You got it. You know what? Young Mel could've had a guy that would have done everything she wanted him to do. I guarantee you, there were guys you dated who you would not have gone through this crisis with. They did not blip on your screen.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- TRTerry Real
I call this the mysticism of marriage.
- MRMel Robbins
The mysticism of marriage?
- TRTerry Real
Yes, we have the opportunity to heal our deepest wounds. Not... Falling in love means, "Oh yeah, this person's gonna give it to me. I'm gonna be healed. They're gonna give me everything I didn't get." Good luck. A real relationship comes [chuckles] I like to say, when you realize your partner is, here's my quote, "exquisitely designed to stick the burning spear right into your eyeball." That's the crisis. That's not a bad relationship. That's a real relationship. The question is, now what?
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- TRTerry Real
Are you just gonna repeat the same old, same old? That's hell. Or are you gonna wake up and do something different? The crisis can wake you up if you allow it, but you have to do it. And so, i- i- there's a lot that goes into why we don't wake up, how to wake up, and if we do stay awake, what the hell do we do then?
- MRMel Robbins
What does unfinished business mean? That what does... 'Cause, 'cause it's true, the person that you're in a relationship with has an uncanny way to get under your skin, piss you off, frustrate the hell out of you. You love 'em, but you wanna kill 'em at times, right?
- TRTerry Real
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Definitely wanna change 'em.
- TRTerry Real
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
But what does unfinished business mean exactly for us?
- TRTerry Real
It means that you are now exactly in the childhood wound that that son of a gun that you picked was supposed to never put you in. You have been fundamentally betrayed. You are back, you're four, you're with your crazy family-... and your partner is just as chaotic, it turns out, as your dad was. Your partner is just as betraying as your mom was. Whatever the wound is, all of a sudden it's in your face, and that's not what you signed up for, and you hate that son of a gun. You are talking to the guy- my favorite, uh, quote is, "Normal marital hatred."
- MRMel Robbins
Normal marital [laughing] hatred?
- TRTerry Real
[laughing] Normal marital hatred. [laughing]
- MRMel Robbins
My God!
- TRTerry Real
[laughing] And I gotta tell you, I've been around the world talking about normal marital hatred for 40... Not once has anyone come backstage and said, "What, what do you mean by that?" [laughing]
- MRMel Robbins
You just don't say it next to the spouse you're sitting next to, right?
- 20:01 – 30:35
Why Childhood Trauma Hijack Your Relationship
- TRTerry Real
up.
- MRMel Robbins
And so is it safe to say that when you look at the person that you're in a relationship with as an adult, that you really are looking at not the adult version, but really I should be thinking about Chris as here's the little eight-year-old version of Chris, and now he's my husband?
- TRTerry Real
It depends on who's there.
- MRMel Robbins
Who's who?
- TRTerry Real
Who's there. A- as a therapist, uh, my most critical question, uh, is not, what are the stressors? It's not even, what's the pattern? Uh, uh, the most critical question, uh: which part of you am I speaking to? Uh, we're talking right now, uh, my wise adult brain is talking to your wise adult brain.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- TRTerry Real
Prefrontal cortex-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay
- TRTerry Real
... doesn't develop until 26 years old. When you get trauma triggered, when Chris betrays you, when Belinda betrays me, in exactly the way I hired them to never do, God damn it, I get flooded. I get trauma flooded. And then what comes up is what we call the wounded child part of you. Very young, just, ugh, you know, cry, cry, cry, rage, rage, rage. Between this very immature part of the brain, and it's subcortical, it's a different part of your brain, and this very mature part of the brain is what I call the adaptive child part of you, and that's what I work with. The adaptive child part of you is the you that you learned to be growing up in that crazy family. Fight... You know, that knee-jerk survival.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- TRTerry Real
Fight, flight, or fawn, which as an adult means fix. Fight: screw me, screw you. Flight: I'm shutting this down. And fix: oh, my God, oh, my God, you're upset. Let me... It's not working on things from a mature place.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- TRTerry Real
It's an anxious over-functioning, is what you write about.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- TRTerry Real
So fight, flight, or fix. It's a knee-jerk, it's automatic. We think as an adult, it does okay out in the world often, but it makes a mess of your relationships. So what makes life difficult is you're in harmony, you're in a wise adult. You get into disharmony, that prefrontal cortex, [whooshing] out the window, and now it's automatic, knee-jerk survival, and you do what you did as a kid, and it doesn't work. And the more you do it, the more it doesn't work, the more frustrated you get, not with you, but with your partner. You have to take a breath. Take a breath. The first skill we teach people now is what I call relational mindfulness. When you're flooded, when you're triggered, take a break. Walk around the block. Take 10 breaths. 'Cause what happens is when you move from harmony into disharmony, you get wounded.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TRTerry Real
And then most of us have about 10 seconds worth of tolerance for that. We don't stay in that wound, and we move into our automatic, habitual response, and it doesn't work. Remember I said, you're very unfeeling? That's healing. The healing comes when you can pull yourself out of that automatic subcortical part of the brain and wake up. I call it relational mindfulness. Okay, I also call it remembering love. "Okay, he's not the enemy. He's my guy. I don't hate him. I love him. We're struggling. What the hell do we do? I don't know, but let's talk about it."
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TRTerry Real
When you're there, then you can use the skills, but the first skill is getting into the part of you... I, I, uh, I like to say other therapies teach you skills. What I've created, I call it Relational Life Therapy, deals with the part of you that won't use them. [laughing]
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, my God. Well, I once heard somebody say that one of the reasons why oftentimes therapy can help you really be aware of things and help you understand what's happening, but when you're talking to a therapist or a doctor or even a friend, or you and I are having a conversation right now-... you are using your prefrontal cortex.
- TRTerry Real
That's right.
- MRMel Robbins
I'm present. I'm not stressed out right now. I'm not in fight or flight. You're not pissing me off, so I'm in the wise, adult part of my brain.
- TRTerry Real
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And so you and I may talk, "Okay, next time I come home from traveling for 10 days, and I walk in the house, and there are dead flowers in dirty water sitting in the middle of the island in the kitchen-
- TRTerry Real
There you go again!
- MRMel Robbins
... which floods me."
- TRTerry Real
That's right.
- MRMel Robbins
And I think, "How many times did I... " And, "Does nobody know that I'm coming back? Does nobody know that I care?" I go right into that, which I'm sure if Chris is in the next room, and he hears the volcano erupting that is the wounded Mel Robbins-
- TRTerry Real
Well, it's not the-
- MRMel Robbins
... he probably shuts down.
- 30:35 – 46:04
How to Have Tough Conversations and Solve Conflicts
- MRMel Robbins
When you start to have this awakening, that, "Oh, I do that, I'm doing this," or, "They do that, or do the other thing," what's the next step?
- TRTerry Real
Take a break.
- MRMel Robbins
Take a break?
- TRTerry Real
Stop it! Take a break. Duck in... You know, I deal with all these tough-ass guys, I mean, NFL players. They're ducking into the bathroom, putting their little five-year-old boys on their laps and talking to them five, six times- literally, five, six times a day. So take a break. Uh, relational mindfulness, come out of that reactivity. Remember, the person is not 14 feet tall with five arms. They're your friend, they're your lover. They're an idiot, just like you are, no better or worse. Calm down. Okay, now go back in the fray and use a skill. But don't try it until you're centered. First step is getting centered.
- MRMel Robbins
And, you know, how do you bring up difficult topics?
- TRTerry Real
With love. Who does that?
- MRMel Robbins
[laughing] Well, I was like, "And how do I do that?"
- TRTerry Real
[laughing]
- MRMel Robbins
Like, let's say that, that, you know, somebody's let their health go, or that they're not motivated, or they are not getting help for, for their depression, or they seem to have started isolating, and they're not seeing their friends anymore. How, how do you bring that up? And it's a difficult topic, and it's something that has kinda led to standoffs or arguments, and you just don't know how to even bring it up without the other person feeling attacked or shutting down.
- TRTerry Real
Well, you do your best. And, you know, you could be taking a page from Mother Teresa, and they still feel attacked-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm
- TRTerry Real
... because they're in their adaptive child, and they feel attacked if you say goddamn anything to 'em. And that's not your responsibility, it's theirs, but you do your best. So, tenderness works better than harshness.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- TRTerry Real
"Honey, sit down. Let me take your hand. These are the things I'm noticing. I'm worried about you."
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TRTerry Real
"You know, uh, you... This, this, and this," give them the data, "This, this, and this. I make up" – not you are – "I make up that you're depressed these days, and I think it would be good for all of us if you did something about it." Look, I wrote the book on male depression back in the '90s. It was the first book ever written. And what I said, and I... NIH, uh, did a public service campaign about male depression, and I said, "If you want to help depressed men, aim your data at the women." This is not a moment... And this is our individualistic culture.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TRTerry Real
"Oh, he needs to call the doctor in." Yeah, well, good luck with that. How about, "I'll try calling the doctor. I'll get him in my car, and we'll drive together. And if that doesn't work, how about this: We're gonna go to a couples therapist because I'm concerned about your drinking," or your anger, or whatever it is I'm concerned about. "We've tried to talk about it. I haven't found a way to talk to you about it. We need help." So even if you think it's their problem, go to a couples therapist and put it in front of them.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, as I'm really listening to you, there are no problems that are their problems because every problem is our problem.
- TRTerry Real
Your relationship is your biosphere. We're not above it, we're not below it, we're in it, baby, and it's in our interest to keep that biosphere healthy.
- MRMel Robbins
How do you shift from me versus you to us versus the problem? Especially in situations where the problem is you're drinking, or the problem [chuckles] is you're not motivated, or the problem is you've let yourself go, or at least that's what you think-
- TRTerry Real
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... you think the problem is with them.
- TRTerry Real
Well, first have some humility. "This is what I think," or even more to the point, "This is what I'm not happy about. This is what's not comfortable for me. Look, I'm working, you're not. I come home, you're on the couch drinking a beer. The place is a mess. I, I, I gotta tell you, uh, Bill, I, I don't mind being the woman going out and being the breadwinner, but could you at least be a good wife when I get home? [laughing] I mean, this sucks." Keep it personal-
- MRMel Robbins
That sounds a little judgmental. [laughing]
- TRTerry Real
Well, but, but keep it personal.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- TRTerry Real
Keep it humble. Keep it real. "Uh, uh, this is hard for me. You may not be uncomfortable with dot, dot, dot, but I'm uncomfortable with it. We live together. Can we talk about what needs to happen here?"
- MRMel Robbins
Um, is there a way to fight constructively?
- TRTerry Real
Sure.
- 46:04 – 53:15
De-Escalating Relationship Conflict
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah. So talk about emotional flooding and emotional over-functioning. What... Is that the same thing as the adaptive child?
- TRTerry Real
Well, yeah. First you get flooded, that's the wounded child.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- TRTerry Real
And then you, you get yourself out of that flooding by moving into your adaptive child.
- MRMel Robbins
Gotcha. So you- the, so, like, let's just take it as fact-
- TRTerry Real
Well, you walk in-
- MRMel Robbins
Yes
- TRTerry Real
... and the flowers are dead.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- TRTerry Real
There's a little Mel that was not taken care of, and that's what gets triggered.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- TRTerry Real
And you're not your adult self feeling let down in a moderate way. You're that four or five-year-old little girl who was never dealt with the way she should have been, and it, it's... You're flooded, but you don't like that feeling of helpless, so you move from helplessness to attack, from one down to one up. These are the roots of violence for all of us.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- TRTerry Real
And the one up feels better. It gets you out of that helplessness, but it makes a mess of your marriage. So you have to think your way down from the one up.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm. Well, recognizing that you're just emotionally flooded is important.
- TRTerry Real
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Recognizing that you're now in [clears throat] react, react, react mode, which is why taking that breath-
- TRTerry Real
Right
- MRMel Robbins
... and consciously pulling yourself back into the wise adult.
- TRTerry Real
Yes. Which may mean that you take a 20-minute walk around the block. Uh, you have a contract with your partner to, "Look, hey, I'm flooded. See you in 20 minutes." And, man, your partner says it, "Let them go."
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- TRTerry Real
"Don't, don't corner an animal." "Okay, bye, hon."
- MRMel Robbins
[chuckles] Don't corner an animal. [laughing]
- TRTerry Real
No, you don't want to do that.
- MRMel Robbins
[chuckles] That's incredible. Why does emotional over-functioning and shutting down, why do these patterns tend to attract people into a partnership?
- TRTerry Real
'Cause it's your unfinished business. So m- may I?
- MRMel Robbins
Yes, please.
- TRTerry Real
All right, here we go, Mel. Ready?
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- TRTerry Real
All right, so fighter Mel, your adapter child, is what I would call one-up and boundaryless. You're one-up, you're grandiose-
- 53:15 – 56:52
What Does a Healthy Relationship Look Like?
- TRTerry Real
from the adaptive child.
- MRMel Robbins
What does a healthy, connected relationship really look like in practice?
- TRTerry Real
Telling the truth to each other with love and being human. You know, uh, there are times Belinda and I are at each other, and I really wouldn't want a video camera recording what [chuckles] we sound like. [chuckles] I like to say to my clients, "Look, the skills I'm teaching..." Uh, here's what I say: "Uh, every skill I..." I've been married for 40 years. "Every skill I teach ha- has been clinically tested. She's the clinic." [laughing]
- MRMel Robbins
[laughing] My God!
- TRTerry Real
[chuckles] And on those days, when either Belinda or I, or God help us, if we both at the same time, lose our wise adults and just go with the adaptive child, we look just as ugly as you two. I say that to my patients. They love hearing that. They say, "I'm just like you." Uh, use your skills as best you can. Expect the wheels to come off sometimes. Nobody's gonna die. When they do, get back in your wise adult, make amends, apologize, own your shit, get back on track. We're a biosphere. We love each other. Let's work this out.
- MRMel Robbins
I can say every single fight, issue, breakdown that I have had in my 29 years of marriage, I can now 1,000% see-... that it's this feeling of being alone, and that it's all on me, and it is like freaking clockwork.
- TRTerry Real
Yeah. And-
- MRMel Robbins
Once you see it, you will see it everywhere.
- TRTerry Real
Everywhere. And you know what? What a blessing. So but maybe after this conversation, but I want you to email me or tell me, what a blessing it would be for you to come home, the goddamn flowers are dead-
- MRMel Robbins
[chuckles]
- TRTerry Real
-and instead of ripping his head off, which he then shuts you down-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah
- TRTerry Real
... you say to him, "You know what, honey? Shoot me. I know you didn't mean it. I saw those dead flowers. I'm back in my little girl not being cared about, and it made me sad."
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TRTerry Real
You see what he does then.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah. Well, I can also not get mad at him, and I can also assume good intent, and I can also know that, like, a lot of times he does remember, and I... And, and this is, like, something we fought about 10 years ago, so it sounds kinda funny to even be thinking about it now-
- TRTerry Real
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... 'cause it's not, [chuckles] not... It's one of the ones that... But the point is, the little things become the big things because the little things are the source of bringing up-
- TRTerry Real
The little things, the little things resonate with what happened to us.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- TRTerry Real
So they take on bigger meaning.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- TRTerry Real
But what you say is right. You know, I love talking to older couples, uh, and I ask them about their life. I, I saw... It, it had to be late a married 50. I said, "You guys seem happy." "We are." They said, "Tell me." "Oh, the first 15 years were hell."
- MRMel Robbins
[chuckles]
- TRTerry Real
"Really?" "Yeah, horrible. I, I kept trying to change Harry, and then one day..." This is absolutely true. I'm not gonna con- But, "And then one day I looked at him, and I went, 'Oh, that's Harry.' Okay. Ever since then, we've been fine." [laughing] There is a place for... I call it scanning for the positive instead of scanning for the negative.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- TRTerry Real
Be appreciative. Tell your partner what they're doing right instead of always harping on what they're doing wrong.
- 56:52 – 1:05:40
The Importance of Vulnerability and Other Relationship Skills
- MRMel Robbins
So there are so many listener questions, uh, that we have, and I'd love to read one from a listener in Chicago: "We've been together for 12 years. We love each other. There's no doubt about that. But if I'm being honest-
- TRTerry Real
Huh!
- MRMel Robbins
... it feels like the spark is gone.
- TRTerry Real
Oh.
- MRMel Robbins
Same routine, same conversation, same habits, same every- There's no fighting, there's no big drama, but there's no real excitement or passion either. I don't even know what desire would look like for us anymore. It feels flat, and here's the part I'm struggling with. I want to bring that spark back, but I don't want it to be forced or fake. How do we actually reconnect with desire and intimacy after years together without pretending or going through the emotion- the motions?"
- TRTerry Real
What makes you think they would be fake? Why don't you start off by saying to your partner what you just wrote to me? Why don't you tell the truth? Look, I, I did a whole book, audiobook, I called it Fierce Intimacy. Lean in and deal with each other. Most people don't. We stop. 'Cause when we do, we're so unskilled, it doesn't go very well.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- TRTerry Real
So we back off, we say we're compromising, but we're not, we're not. We resent it. Distance grows, sexuality dies. If you wanna keep your relationship juicy, tell the truth to each other. Take each other on. Start with this: We're flat. Maybe you're okay being, you, you know, watching TV every night, but I'm not. Let's go do ballroom dancing. And then, like, "Okay, you're flat. What are you gonna do about it?" Y- you show up in a m- with a mariachi band. You, [chuckles] you know, you, uh, go to the, the sex store and get some, uh, uh, velvet chains. I don't know. What are you gonna do to mix it up? Why are you waiting for your partner to do it? But tell the truth to each other. We stop doing that because we're very unskilled, and when we do, it doesn't go well.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TRTerry Real
We have to learn how to do it.
- MRMel Robbins
Here's another question: "I've been married for 11 years, and I'm realizing I've become the critic in the relationship. I notice everything my husband does wrong, the socks on the floor, the way he loads the dishwasher, the tone when he talks to the kids. It's like I'm constantly scanning for what's off or annoying, and here's the thing, I don't wanna be that way. He's a good man. I love him, but I rarely notice the good stuff until he points it out. Like, why is it that you only mention what I'm doing wrong? And he's right. I don't wanna keep showing up this way. I just don't know how to switch out of this mindset. How do I stop scanning for what's wrong and start seeing what's good again?" What's going on in this dynamic? 'Cause I think that's really relatable when you got somebody picking on somebody all the time.
- TRTerry Real
Yeah, it's a form of control. I would say, uh, "Who was the complainer in your family growing up, hon? Where'd you learn this from?"
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TRTerry Real
There's an adaptive child in there that thinks that picking at him is gonna be a good thing. And then the other issue is, man, intimacy is scary. Vulnerability is scary. Does it feel safer to be constantly nagging what's wrong than to open up and receive what's right?
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TRTerry Real
And that's so true for all of us, and the more damage you had as a kid, the more frightening it is. We fuss with each other because being close to each other in itself can be trauma-triggering for us. It's scary to be vulnerable and close. You have to allow it. That's, uh, the piece I work with next. First, we deal with what you do wrong. We deal with what came, where it came from. We give you the skills to do it different.... Now, you have to receive it.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- TRTerry Real
And that's brand new for a lot of us, and it's frightening. It's m- I talk about miserable, comfortable; happy, uncomfortable.
- MRMel Robbins
Let's talk about miserable, comfortable. What does that look like?
- TRTerry Real
It looks like the same old, same old. You could do it in your sleep, but you could do it in your sleep. You're perfectly comfortable there. "Oh, uh, Chris, honey, when I came home and those flowers were dead, I was back in my family, and I didn't feel very cared about." How's that feel? Fricking scary, that's how that feels. It's a lot more comfortable to go after 'em. Adapted children, you're safe, you're comfortable. You could do it in your sleep.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- TRTerry Real
Wise adult, new, courageous, scary. Good, go there with help, with support, 12-step group, woman's group, but support that will support your relationship, not your individual power.
- MRMel Robbins
What's so interesting is everybody wants love and wants to feel loved, and I'd never thought about it as a skill to allow yourself to be loved.
- TRTerry Real
Yeah, and it- it- it's hard. So, I- when I'm working with a couple-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm
- TRTerry Real
... uh, partner A starts giving partner B what they want. Now we move into what I call transmission reception. Partner A is transmitting. How is partner B doing receiving?
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- TRTerry Real
When your partner starts giving you what you want, do we fall in their arms and go thank? No, we don't. "It's too little, too late. You did it, but I had to ask you," uh, all these "yes, buts," that's to protect ourselves from the vulnerability of being loved. Allowing our hearts to open, allowing the love in, n- that's scary, and the less love you had as a kid, the scarier it is to let yourself-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm
- TRTerry Real
... love and be loved as an adult. I have to tell you a story-
- 1:05:40 – 1:29:45
Practical Relationship Advice
- MRMel Robbins
"I'm 34, and I'm realizing I have no idea how to be in a healthy relationship. I either give way too much, I over-function, people please, twist myself into knots trying to keep everyone happy, or I do the opposite. I shut down, shut people out, convince myself I don't need anybody. I swing between the two. It's exhausting. It wasn't modeled healthy love growing up, and now that I'm older, I don't even know what healthy is supposed to feel like. How do I start figuring that out? What does a healthy relationship look like, and how do I learn to trust myself enough to build one?"
- TRTerry Real
Well, I brought up Carol Gilligan. Here's one of my great quotes from her. I love this: "You cannot love from the one down" That's running around, cleaning everybody's mess. "You cannot love from the one up," shut down, I don't care about anybody. "Love demands democracy." So this person has to learn how to be in the biosphere. There's no relationship without voice. There's no voice without relationship. That's also Carol.
- MRMel Robbins
Can you do this with yourself all day long? Like, if work is pissing you off, if work makes you shut down, if a friendship makes you get angry?
- TRTerry Real
... Yeah, although what's interesting is we tend to be more on our wise adults with everyone but our mates, and sometimes our kids. Uh, they, they just don't get at us in the same way. Uh, but yeah, your adaptive child's all over the place. We do, uh, consulting to teams that aren't working or-
- MRMel Robbins
No, but I meant like if she's single, and so she's not in a relationship, and she-
- TRTerry Real
She is in a relationship. She has a relationship. She's got parents, she's got friends, she's got siblings-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay
- TRTerry Real
... she's got a dog. We're all in relationships, and it's the same skills and the same work.
- MRMel Robbins
Got it. So if the question is, "I look at my track record, and I do not trust myself, and I don't know how to do this, and it wasn't modeled," and you've already said, Terry, it hasn't been modeled for anybody, and nobody teaches these skills, you can start applying absolutely everything-
- TRTerry Real
Now
- MRMel Robbins
... right now.
- TRTerry Real
Right now.
- MRMel Robbins
Even if you're not in a romantic relationship right now.
- TRTerry Real
You're still in a relationship.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah, you're still in relationships, and so these are the tools that you can use for any relationship.
- TRTerry Real
This way of thinking relationally, not individualistically-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm
- TRTerry Real
... and these tools, of telling the truth with love and non-harshness, but telling the truth, they're so different from the culture at large, and they're so potent, that doing them badly will transform your life. [laughs] A- and here's the great news, Mel, you can start doing them badly right now. [laughing] Go ahead!
- MRMel Robbins
Because it's such a disruption to the way we run around, and pretend, and lie, and please, and shove our feelings down and rage, that simply trying to do these things badly, telling the truth, using "I" statements, not venting, not trying to be right-
- TRTerry Real
Your partner will be blown away.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, you'll also be blown away-
- TRTerry Real
You should be
- MRMel Robbins
... by yourself.
- TRTerry Real
It's a happier way to live.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, I often joke, Terry, that, you know, people say that second marriages are really amazing, and I say, "That's especially true if it's with the same person."
- TRTerry Real
Well.
- MRMel Robbins
And I feel like the tremendous amount of work that I've done on myself, and that Chris and I have done together, it feels like a completely different relationship, because I feel way more peaceful.
- TRTerry Real
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And I was... I know you, you will say this is probably not true, 'cause we're all out of control when we don't understand that adaptive child and the behaviors that come out on automatic when you're emotionally flooded. But I felt so out of control with my anger, with my frustration, with my feelings of being alone, even though I'm married, that I thought it would always feel that way.
- TRTerry Real
Yeah.
Episode duration: 1:29:45
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