Married, Dating, or Single: The Best Relationship Advice You Will Ever Receive

Terry Real 0:00 I'm not an empathic therapist. Uh, you want empathy? Uh, oh, I'm sorry. You cracked. Patriarchy cracked. It doesn't mean there was something wrong with you. It means there was something wrong with what you were both trying to live up to.

Mel Robbins 0:14 [upbeat music] Terry Real is one of the most sought-after couples therapist in the world. His private clients pay $7,000 for a single session. He's gonna explain exactly why none of your relationships in the past have worked.

Terry Real 0:29 Listen, we've never wanted more from relationships than we do right now. We wanna be lifelong lovers, but we're trying to do that in the context of a culture that is not a relationship-cherishing culture. There is a relationship technology. There's a set of skills that work better. It works better to ask your partner for what you want than to criticize them for what they're doing wrong. All relationships are an endless dance of harmony, disharmony, and repair.

Mel Robbins 1:02 Most couples are in harmony and disharmony. Harmony and disharmony, but no repair.

Terry Real 1:07 No repair, because that's where the skills come in. Getting the love you want literally means being a pioneer. We are interconnected. We are interdependent. Healthy self-esteem comes from the inside out. You have worth, you have dignity, because you're here on this planet, you're a human being, no better or worse than anybody else. Remember that, and have that give you courage.

Mel Robbins 1:37 Please help me welcome Terry Real to The Mel Robbins Podcast.

Terry Real 1:41 Oh, my gosh, it's a thrill to be here, and bless you, and thank you for the good work you're doing for the world.

Mel Robbins 1:47 Terry, right back at you. Bless you, and thank you for the good work you're doing in the world, and for the good work you're about to help us do in our conversation

Mel Robbins 1:57 today. And here's where I wanna start: How could my life be different? If I take everything that you are about to teach me today, after 40 years of wisdom, and work, and the things that you have learned, and the truths that you know, how could my life be different if I take it all to heart, and I apply it to relationships and to my day-to-day life?

Terry Real 2:24 I'm gonna tell you, and listeners, viewers, uh, the same thing I say to every single couple: I am inviting you on a rarefied path. It's demanding, it's sophisticated, it's skilled, and it leaves the norms of this culture in the dust. Listen, we've never wanted more from relationships than we do right now.

Mel Robbins 2:50 Hmm.

Terry Real 2:51 Gone are our grandparents, even our parents, companion- side by side, pay the bills, raise the kids, no passion, no communication, fine, stable, good enough. That's gone. We wanna walk hand-in-hand on the beach. We want heart to... We want great sex in 70s and 80s. We wanna be lifelong lovers, but we're trying to do that in the context of a culture that is not a relationship-cherishing culture. We live in a patriarchal, and I'll go into that, individualistic culture that does not cherish relationships. I would like basic relationship skills taught in elementary school, junior high, high. We need to know how to pull off this new ambition of being lifelong lovers. Getting the love you want literally means being a pioneer. If you're a hetero man, it means moving into vulnerability, which means deconstructing masculinity itself. Masculinity means being invulnerable. You open your heart, you are redoing what it means to be a man. As we were speaking, standing up for yourself, not with shrillness, but with love and power, is brand-new work for women in this culture. As a people, we all need in our lives to be pioneers. We don't live relationally in this culture. We are individualistic, and we are patriarchal, meaning the basic model is dominance.

Mel Robbins 4:41 Hmm.

Terry Real 4:41 We control. We need to trade the dominance model in for the reality of our biospheres. We are interconnected. We are interdependent. If we stay on the dominance model, we will fry this planet. What you're doing in your living room is exactly the same work we need to do across this globe in order to render it a place our grandchildren will wanna live in. It's a great ambition. I, I like to say we have, like, a filet mignon a- ambition and hamburger skills. We need to catch up to ourselves.

Mel Robbins 5:26 I love that you said, "skills." So there are skills that we can build to have better relationships, and you did, though, say they were demanding.

Terry Real 5:38 They are demanding. One of the great lies, uh, is that a long-term relationship is supposed to be spontaneous.

Mel Robbins 5:45 Hmm.

Terry Real 5:46 Uh, there's l- lip service about having to work on it. But let me ask you a question.

Mel Robbins 5:50 Yeah.

Terry Real 5:51 How many times have you heard that relationships take work?

Mel Robbins 5:54 My whole life.

Terry Real 5:55 Yeah. Anybody ever tell you what it was? [laughing] You know?

Mel Robbins 6:01 [laughing] Actually, no.

Terry Real 6:02 Of course not! J- And that's where I come in.... There is a relationship technology. There's a set of skills that work better. For example, and we'll go over it, but just one example: It works better to ask your partner for what you want than to criticize them for what they're doing wrong. Now, who does- listen, in our culture, the way we try and get more of what we want in our relationships is we share our feelings about how miserable [chuckles] we are, that you just blew it. That's how we try and get- eh, that's the worst behavioral mi- I- you don't treat a dog like... How about just punishing a dog every time they get it wrong? [chuckles] No. I talk about three steps of getting what you want. One, this is the important one, dare to rock the boat. We're gonna talk about that.

Mel Robbins 6:54 Okay.

Terry Real 6:54 Dare to tell the truth, but you have to do it skillfully. Two, once your partner's listening, help them out. Teach them what you want. "I would rather you do it this way than that way, honey. Honey," with love. And then three, when they start to give it to you, reward them. Don't criticize them. "Well, you did a half-ass job." "Hey, you did a half-ass job! [chuckles] Isn't that great? Let's get the other cheek on board while we're at it." [laughing]

Mel Robbins 7:27 [laughing] It seems so simple. Tell the truth, teach your partner what you want, and reward them when they do it, even if it's a half-ass job.

Terry Real 7:37 Yeah, that's the best way of getting them to do more. Criticizing them for what they're doing wrong is about the worst way of trying to get them motivated to give you more. But we don't know these basics in this culture. You know, the... I'm a family therapist for 40 years. The father of family therapy was Gregory Bateson, the husband of Margaret, uh, Mead. Uh, and Bateson's whole work, the birth of family therapy, is what he called correcting humankind's, uh, eh, philosophical mistake, which is that we stand apart from nature, and we can control it.

Mel Robbins 8:14 Hmm.

Terry Real 8:14 Both wrong. And by the way, apropos of, uh, The Let Them Theory, control can be one-up. That tends to be more traditionally male. "Sit down, shut up, and do what I tell you." Control can also be upregulating from the one down. That's codependent, that's enabling, that's trying- getting your partner to... dot, dot, dot. That's traditionally more feminine under patriarchy. Intimacy, here's one of the first things I wanna say: To really move into the intimacy we want means nothing less than moving beyond traditional gender roles for all of us. Women have to move out of resentful accommodation, uh, control, enabling. That's what your book is all about. Uh, and, a- uh, the sort of, um, my generation's early feminists shifted from the one-down, traditionally feminine role to the one-up, traditionally masculine role. I call that individual empowerment.

Mel Robbins 9:17 Okay.

Terry Real 9:18 "I was weak, now I'm strong. Go screw yourself." [chuckles]

Mel Robbins 9:21 Yes.

Terry Real 9:21 Uh, no. "I was weak, now I'm strong. Let's work together."

Mel Robbins 9:26 Hmm.

Terry Real 9:26 "We're a team. I love you." I call that relational empowerment, and in our culture, man, that is new news, and therapy, 12-step sponsors, women's groups, men's groups, all individual empowerment. "I wouldn't put up with that if I was you." Well, that's easy to say. How about, "Roll up your sleeves, you love each other, how are you gonna make this work together?"

Mel Robbins 9:51 So there were so many things you just said that I wanna dig into. I love this idea of relationship technology and skills that we can build. I also love that you're starting from a place of this larger container that we're all in, which is culture. I also appreciate the fact that the traditional gender roles, that a, quote, "Man is supposed to act this way, a woman's supposed to act that way," that those are leading to a lot of disfat- dissatisfaction-

Terry Real 10:26 Yes

Mel Robbins 10:27 ... in relationships on both sides. And there was something that you said that I wanna make sure we unpack, and that was the term resentful accommodation.

Terry Real 10:38 Accommodation.

Mel Robbins 10:38 What does that mean?

Terry Real 10:39 [chuckles] Ask any woman on the street.

Mel Robbins 10:41 Well, I know what it means-

Terry Real 10:42 [laughing]

Mel Robbins 10:42 -but I, but I...

Terry Real 10:44 Well, what did it mean in your life?

Mel Robbins 10:46 So resentful accommodation was... Uh, the biggest ex- example that I can think of is that when we were in a massive financial crisis, Chris cratered-

Terry Real 11:01 Hmm

Mel Robbins 11:02 ... and his confidence in himself, his ability to believe in himself-

Terry Real 11:12 Hmm

Mel Robbins 11:12 ... the sense that he had failed as a husband, as a father, to provide, that he had lost people money.

Terry Real 11:19 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 11:21 As he was collapsing, I became more and more resentful-

Terry Real 11:25 Hmm

Mel Robbins 11:26 ... because I felt like it was my job to then step up and save us and do what I thought should have been his job. Again, traditional gender roles, that he's supposed to be the one that's the breadwinner. I'm supposed to make some money that's our fun money, and when that didn't work-

Terry Real 11:46 You both cratered.

Mel Robbins 11:47 We both cratered.

Terry Real 11:48 The whole marriage cratered.

Mel Robbins 11:49 Yes, and so it, it-

Terry Real 11:51 Well, well-

Mel Robbins 11:52 The resentfulness-

Terry Real 11:53 Yeah

Mel Robbins 11:53 ... is, kinda comes from that thing of, "I thought it was gonna be this way, and I think you owe me something, and now I'm pissed. So now I'm gonna go do this thing, you know, and go, like, make the money and get three jobs and do what I need to do. And now I'm mad because when I come home, like-"... the laundry's still there, and all this stuff is still there. Like, you c- um, probably is a lot of the tone that you hear when you're sitting with couples.

Terry Real 12:19 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 12:19 And the interesting thing is, is that if I look at your three things: tell the truth about what you need, listen, and teach somebody what you want, and then reward them. And it seems so simple, but when you're caught in that cycle of-

Terry Real 12:36 Well-

Mel Robbins 12:36 -the emotion of all of it-

Terry Real 12:38 That's right

Mel Robbins 12:38 ... and you start to pull away from each other-

Terry Real 12:40 That's right

Mel Robbins 12:41 ... and that distance comes in, I think this is the heart of what you help people do.

Terry Real 12:48 Well, you know, I mean, I don't mean to be heartless, but I would look at the two of you, and I'd go, "What a great opportunity." [laughing] Which is not... I'm not an empathic therapist. Uh, you want empathy? "Oh, I'm sorry." No, look at how you both grew, and you cracked. Patriarchy cracked. One of the first things I have to teach people, and I'd love people to listen to this-

Mel Robbins 13:13 Mm.

Terry Real 13:14 ... is healthy self-esteem, which is rare in our culture. Healthy self-esteem comes from the inside out. You have worth, you have dignity, because you're here on this planet, you're a human being, no better or worse than anybody else. An unhealthy self-esteem comes from the outside in. Uh, for many men, it's performance-based.

Mel Robbins 13:37 Mm.

Terry Real 13:37 "I have worth because of what I can do. I have worth because of how much I earn." And for many women, it's other-based: "I have worth because you think I do."

Mel Robbins 13:46 Mm.

Terry Real 13:47 And that cracked for both of you. Y- you were gonna be taken care of by Prince Charming, but Prince Charming was drinking himself down the toilet and depressed as hell 'cause his performance-based esteem had cracked. So you know what? It doesn't mean there was something wrong with you.

Mel Robbins 14:06 Mm.

Terry Real 14:07 It means there was something wrong with what you were both trying to live up to-

Mel Robbins 14:10 Mm

Terry Real 14:11 ... and it didn't work.

Mel Robbins 14:12 Yeah.

Terry Real 14:13 The problem is... Okay, so what was going on? This is one of the great things nobody gets. All relationships are an endless dance of harmony, disharmony, and repair. That's what you and Chris lived through, big time.

Mel Robbins 14:32 All relationships are an endless dance of harmony, disharmony, and repair.

Terry Real 14:38 That's correct.

Mel Robbins 14:39 And here's what I'm going to guess, 'cause as you're listening right now to Terry, as you're watching this on YouTube, first of all, I want you, wherever you are, whether you're single, whether you're heartbroken, whether you're in a marriage that feels like roommates, whether you're recognizing the resentment that is coming up in your relationship, Terry is asking us all to look at where you're at as one giant opportunity. And when you say all relationships are either... or, are an endless dance of harmony, disharmony, and repair, I'm willing to guess, based on my own experience, Terry, [chuckles] being married 29 years, that most couples are in harmony and disharmony. Harmony and disharmony-

Terry Real 15:31 That's-

Mel Robbins 15:31 -but no repair.

Terry Real 15:32 No repair, because that's where the skills come in, and we don't know them. But also, two things: first of all, our culture doesn't even acknowledge the disharmony to begin with. A good relationship is all harmony. That's what you thought when you were young-

Mel Robbins 15:48 That's true

Terry Real 15:49 ... and you were bitterly disappointed.

Mel Robbins 15:51 Yes, and aimed it right at him.

Terry Real 15:52 Well, of course, he failed you, but you picked him. Uh, [chuckles] I like to say, we all marry our unfinished business.

Mel Robbins 16:03 Whoa, hold on! We all marry our unfinished business?

Terry Real 16:09 You got it. You know what? Young Mel could've had a guy that would have done everything she wanted him to do. I guarantee you, there were guys you dated who you would not have gone through this crisis with. They did not blip on your screen.

Mel Robbins 16:27 Mm.

Terry Real 16:28 I call this the mysticism of marriage.

Mel Robbins 16:30 The mysticism of marriage?

Terry Real 16:31 Yes, we have the opportunity to heal our deepest wounds. Not... Falling in love means, "Oh yeah, this person's gonna give it to me. I'm gonna be healed. They're gonna give me everything I didn't get." Good luck. A real relationship comes [chuckles] I like to say, when you realize your partner is, here's my quote, "exquisitely designed to stick the burning spear right into your eyeball." That's the crisis. That's not a bad relationship. That's a real relationship. The question is, now what?

Mel Robbins 17:06 Mm.

Terry Real 17:06 Are you just gonna repeat the same old, same old? That's hell. Or are you gonna wake up and do something different? The crisis can wake you up if you allow it, but you have to do it. And so, i- i- there's a lot that goes into why we don't wake up, how to wake up, and if we do stay awake, what the hell do we do then?

Mel Robbins 17:32 What does unfinished business mean? That what does... 'Cause, 'cause it's true, the person that you're in a relationship with has an uncanny way to get under your skin, piss you off, frustrate the hell out of you. You love 'em, but you wanna kill 'em at times, right?

Terry Real 17:50 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 17:50 Definitely wanna change 'em.

Terry Real 17:51 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 17:52 But what does unfinished business mean exactly for us?

Terry Real 17:57 It means that you are now exactly in the childhood wound that that son of a gun that you picked was supposed to never put you in. You have been fundamentally betrayed. You are back, you're four, you're with your crazy family-... and your partner is just as chaotic, it turns out, as your dad was. Your partner is just as betraying as your mom was. Whatever the wound is, all of a sudden it's in your face, and that's not what you signed up for, and you hate that son of a gun. You are talking to the guy- my favorite, uh, quote is, "Normal marital hatred."

Mel Robbins 18:44 Normal marital [laughing] hatred?

Terry Real 18:49 [laughing] Normal marital hatred. [laughing]

Mel Robbins 18:50 My God!

Terry Real 18:51 [laughing] And I gotta tell you, I've been around the world talking about normal marital hatred for 40... Not once has anyone come backstage and said, "What, what do you mean by that?" [laughing]

Mel Robbins 19:03 You just don't say it next to the spouse you're sitting next to, right?

Terry Real 19:06 But we do.

Mel Robbins 19:06 But you feel it!

Terry Real 19:07 We do. There is a part of me, and I used to say a part of me, there's a part of me that hates you right now.

Mel Robbins 19:14 Mm.

Terry Real 19:15 Yes. Okay, here's why, but more important, here's what we can do to get the hell out of this thing together. Let's hold on.

Mel Robbins 19:25 So if we just take these, take... I'm just gonna keep building here. So wherever it is that you are-

Terry Real 19:31 Yeah

Mel Robbins 19:32 ... in that never-ending dance in the relationship-

Terry Real 19:35 Yeah

Mel Robbins 19:37 ... that the partner that you're with or the relationship that just ended offers you the opportunity to deal with unfinished business.

Terry Real 19:47 Right.

Mel Robbins 19:47 And the opportunity, and the unfinished business, is that in every single relationship that you're in, your childhood crap-

Terry Real 19:58 Comes up

Mel Robbins 19:58 ... and their childhood crap comes up.

Terry Real 20:00 Boom. Comes

Terry Real 20:01 up.

Mel Robbins 20:01 And so is it safe to say that when you look at the person that you're in a relationship with as an adult, that you really are looking at not the adult version, but really I should be thinking about Chris as here's the little eight-year-old version of Chris, and now he's my husband?

Terry Real 20:19 It depends on who's there.

Mel Robbins 20:21 Who's who?

Terry Real 20:21 Who's there. A- as a therapist, uh, my most critical question, uh, is not, what are the stressors? It's not even, what's the pattern? Uh, uh, the most critical question, uh: which part of you am I speaking to? Uh, we're talking right now, uh, my wise adult brain is talking to your wise adult brain.

Mel Robbins 20:46 Yes.

Terry Real 20:46 Prefrontal cortex-

Mel Robbins 20:48 Okay

Terry Real 20:48 ... doesn't develop until 26 years old. When you get trauma triggered, when Chris betrays you, when Belinda betrays me, in exactly the way I hired them to never do, God damn it, I get flooded. I get trauma flooded. And then what comes up is what we call the wounded child part of you. Very young, just, ugh, you know, cry, cry, cry, rage, rage, rage. Between this very immature part of the brain, and it's subcortical, it's a different part of your brain, and this very mature part of the brain is what I call the adaptive child part of you, and that's what I work with. The adaptive child part of you is the you that you learned to be growing up in that crazy family. Fight... You know, that knee-jerk survival.

Mel Robbins 21:39 Yes.

Terry Real 21:39 Fight, flight, or fawn, which as an adult means fix. Fight: screw me, screw you. Flight: I'm shutting this down. And fix: oh, my God, oh, my God, you're upset. Let me... It's not working on things from a mature place.

Mel Robbins 21:56 Mm.

Terry Real 21:56 It's an anxious over-functioning, is what you write about.

Mel Robbins 22:00 Yeah.

Terry Real 22:01 So fight, flight, or fix. It's a knee-jerk, it's automatic. We think as an adult, it does okay out in the world often, but it makes a mess of your relationships. So what makes life difficult is you're in harmony, you're in a wise adult. You get into disharmony, that prefrontal cortex, [whooshing] out the window, and now it's automatic, knee-jerk survival, and you do what you did as a kid, and it doesn't work. And the more you do it, the more it doesn't work, the more frustrated you get, not with you, but with your partner. You have to take a breath. Take a breath. The first skill we teach people now is what I call relational mindfulness. When you're flooded, when you're triggered, take a break. Walk around the block. Take 10 breaths. 'Cause what happens is when you move from harmony into disharmony, you get wounded.

Mel Robbins 23:05 Hmm.

Terry Real 23:06 And then most of us have about 10 seconds worth of tolerance for that. We don't stay in that wound, and we move into our automatic, habitual response, and it doesn't work. Remember I said, you're very unfeeling? That's healing. The healing comes when you can pull yourself out of that automatic subcortical part of the brain and wake up. I call it relational mindfulness. Okay, I also call it remembering love. "Okay, he's not the enemy. He's my guy. I don't hate him. I love him. We're struggling. What the hell do we do? I don't know, but let's talk about it."

Mel Robbins 23:49 Hmm.

Terry Real 23:50 When you're there, then you can use the skills, but the first skill is getting into the part of you... I, I, uh, I like to say other therapies teach you skills. What I've created, I call it Relational Life Therapy, deals with the part of you that won't use them. [laughing]

Mel Robbins 24:07 Oh, my God. Well, I once heard somebody say that one of the reasons why oftentimes therapy can help you really be aware of things and help you understand what's happening, but when you're talking to a therapist or a doctor or even a friend, or you and I are having a conversation right now-... you are using your prefrontal cortex.

Terry Real 24:27 That's right.

Mel Robbins 24:27 I'm present. I'm not stressed out right now. I'm not in fight or flight. You're not pissing me off, so I'm in the wise, adult part of my brain.

Terry Real 24:34 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 24:35 And so you and I may talk, "Okay, next time I come home from traveling for 10 days, and I walk in the house, and there are dead flowers in dirty water sitting in the middle of the island in the kitchen-

Terry Real 24:48 There you go again!

Mel Robbins 24:50 ... which floods me."

Terry Real 24:52 That's right.

Mel Robbins 24:53 And I think, "How many times did I... " And, "Does nobody know that I'm coming back? Does nobody know that I care?" I go right into that, which I'm sure if Chris is in the next room, and he hears the volcano erupting that is the wounded Mel Robbins-

Terry Real 25:11 Well, it's not the-

Mel Robbins 25:11 ... he probably shuts down.

Terry Real 25:12 It's not the wounded Mel Robbins, 'cause you don't go to Chris and go, "You know, I feel- my feelings are hurt that I come home and those flowers are dead. I, I don't feel like... I don't feel cared about." No.

Mel Robbins 25:26 Why would I do that-

Terry Real 25:27 You [laughing] Right!

Mel Robbins 25:28 ... when I can, when I can take a photo-

Terry Real 25:29 [laughing]

Mel Robbins 25:30 -and send a passive-aggressive text message?

Terry Real 25:32 Yeah. [laughing]

Mel Robbins 25:33 Why would I do that, Terry, when I can dump the flowers out in the sink loudly and then throw the things in the trash-

Terry Real 25:41 Yeah

Mel Robbins 25:41 ... as if I'm sending anger signal waves?

Terry Real 25:44 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 25:44 I'm, uh, like, this was an old dynamic between us.

Terry Real 25:48 Well, I... And a lot of other people, my marriage, too.

Mel Robbins 25:51 So pull apart that-

Terry Real 25:52 Well, when you're in the hurt, you know, "I feel abandoned. I feel uncared about," and, uh, we could go into your childhood, but I'm sure that that has resonance and... But like all of us, you have about two seconds worth of tolerance for that-

Mel Robbins 26:10 Mm

Terry Real 26:11 ... helplessness and vulnerability, and you go one- you go from the one down to the one up. You go from shame, helplessness, not cared about, to anger, uh, indignation. "What kind of person does that to... " And what's devilish about that is that you feel better. It works.

Mel Robbins 26:32 'Cause I think, "Why does it work?"

Terry Real 26:34 Because grandiosity feels good. Shame feels bad. The wound feels bad. The adaptation feels good. It works. We're not so... Look, we move into these defensive moves, self-medication, rage, affairs. They make a mess of our lives, but we're not so stupid that we move into stuff that feels bad. It feels good.

Mel Robbins 26:59 Mm.

Terry Real 27:00 Grandiosity feels good. That's one of my great contributions of my work. Grandiosity feels good. It just makes a hash of things. So you have to take a breath. You're a fighter. I'm a fighter. Go into the fighter. I don't-

Mel Robbins 27:18 Chris is a shutter-downer.

Terry Real 27:19 Okay, well, there you go.

Mel Robbins 27:20 Oh, he goes right into, "Don't talk."

Terry Real 27:22 "Bye!"

Mel Robbins 27:23 "Goodbye."

Terry Real 27:23 Yeah. The more you rage, the more I shut down.

Mel Robbins 27:26 And then that makes you so frustrated-

Terry Real 27:29 Well, then you rage more-

Mel Robbins 27:30 Because-

Terry Real 27:30 And then you shut-

Mel Robbins 27:30 Yes, and then they shut down more.

Terry Real 27:31 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 27:32 And then you... Or same thing if you're a fixer. "Now I'm trying to fix this, and now you're getting more angry at me," or, "Now I'm just trying to solve this, and now you won't even talk to me." And so-

Terry Real 27:40 Well, you-

Mel Robbins 27:40 ... I can see how you get stuck in a loop with somebody.

Terry Real 27:42 Yeah, everybody comes to me in a loop. The more, the more.

Mel Robbins 27:45 Wait, hold on. Everybody that comes to you, Terry?

Terry Real 27:49 Is in a loop.

Mel Robbins 27:50 Well, and it's this loop of your adaptation of what you did as a kid-

Terry Real 27:56 That's right. Meets his adaptation

Mel Robbins 27:57 ... meets his adaptation as a kid.

Terry Real 28:00 That's it.

Mel Robbins 28:00 I w- I wanna read to you from your New York Times bestseller, Us. This is page nine, and it's the chapter that is entitled "Which Version of You Shows Up to Your Relationship?" "There's no redeeming value in harshness."

Terry Real 28:18 Ah, yeah.

Mel Robbins 28:19 I'm the harsh one. I, I'll own it.

Terry Real 28:21 You're a fighter.

Mel Robbins 28:21 I have a tone. I'm a fighter. I... Yes. "Let's take a look at just one of the immature qualities that are prevalent in our adaptive child"-

Terry Real 28:33 Yes

Mel Robbins 28:34 ..."harshness. I tell my clients that if they walk away from their sessions with me with just this one concept, they will have spent their therapy money well. Here it is: There is no redeeming value whatsoever in harshness. Harshness does nothing that loving firmness doesn't do better."

Terry Real 28:59 That's a revolution. That's life-changing. And by the way, harshness between you being harsh to somebody, no value. Allowing them to be harsh to you, no value. And watch this, you being harsh to you, no value.

Mel Robbins 29:20 Mm.

Terry Real 29:21 How many of us think, "Well, I have to be firm with myself in order to whip myself, and..." Uh-uh. Think about the way we deal with kids on a good day. You don't have to be harsh to be firm. Be firm. You know, I'm 75. I like to tell my clients, "At 75, I have a deal with the universe. If it's not kind, I'm not interested." And that's whether it's me talking to you or me listening to you or me talking to me. You know, that adaptive child part of me is very harsh. I grew up with a violent father, and I was very violent between my ears for decades. Nowadays, that harsh critic, I know it's just my little teenage fighter, kept me alive. "Okay, little 17-year-old shit-kicker, don't let nobody take advantage." [laughing] "Okay, got it, pal. You may have something to say to me, and I'll listen, but you gotta say it like you're on my side." Take that in.... Say it like you're on my side-

Mel Robbins 30:33 Hmm.

Terry Real 30:34 -then I'll listen.

Mel Robbins 30:35 When you start to have this awakening, that, "Oh, I do that, I'm doing this," or, "They do that, or do the other thing," what's the next step?

Terry Real 30:43 Take a break.

Mel Robbins 30:45 Take a break?

Terry Real 30:47 Stop it! Take a break. Duck in... You know, I deal with all these tough-ass guys, I mean, NFL players. They're ducking into the bathroom, putting their little five-year-old boys on their laps and talking to them five, six times- literally, five, six times a day. So take a break. Uh, relational mindfulness, come out of that reactivity. Remember, the person is not 14 feet tall with five arms. They're your friend, they're your lover. They're an idiot, just like you are, no better or worse. Calm down. Okay, now go back in the fray and use a skill. But don't try it until you're centered. First step is getting centered.

Mel Robbins 31:30 And, you know, how do you bring up difficult topics?

Terry Real 31:35 With love. Who does that?

Mel Robbins 31:39 [laughing] Well, I was like, "And how do I do that?"

Terry Real 31:42 [laughing]

Mel Robbins 31:42 Like, let's say that, that, you know, somebody's let their health go, or that they're not motivated, or they are not getting help for, for their depression, or they seem to have started isolating, and they're not seeing their friends anymore. How, how do you bring that up? And it's a difficult topic, and it's something that has kinda led to standoffs or arguments, and you just don't know how to even bring it up without the other person feeling attacked or shutting down.

Terry Real 32:20 Well, you do your best. And, you know, you could be taking a page from Mother Teresa, and they still feel attacked-

Mel Robbins 32:30 Hmm

Terry Real 32:30 ... because they're in their adaptive child, and they feel attacked if you say goddamn anything to 'em. And that's not your responsibility, it's theirs, but you do your best. So, tenderness works better than harshness.

Mel Robbins 32:43 Right.

Terry Real 32:43 "Honey, sit down. Let me take your hand. These are the things I'm noticing. I'm worried about you."

Mel Robbins 32:49 Hmm.

Terry Real 32:49 "You know, uh, you... This, this, and this," give them the data, "This, this, and this. I make up" – not you are – "I make up that you're depressed these days, and I think it would be good for all of us if you did something about it." Look, I wrote the book on male depression back in the '90s. It was the first book ever written. And what I said, and I... NIH, uh, did a public service campaign about male depression, and I said, "If you want to help depressed men, aim your data at the women." This is not a moment... And this is our individualistic culture.

Mel Robbins 33:30 Hmm.

Terry Real 33:30 "Oh, he needs to call the doctor in." Yeah, well, good luck with that. How about, "I'll try calling the doctor. I'll get him in my car, and we'll drive together. And if that doesn't work, how about this: We're gonna go to a couples therapist because I'm concerned about your drinking," or your anger, or whatever it is I'm concerned about. "We've tried to talk about it. I haven't found a way to talk to you about it. We need help." So even if you think it's their problem, go to a couples therapist and put it in front of them.

Mel Robbins 34:04 Well, as I'm really listening to you, there are no problems that are their problems because every problem is our problem.

Terry Real 34:15 Your relationship is your biosphere. We're not above it, we're not below it, we're in it, baby, and it's in our interest to keep that biosphere healthy.

Mel Robbins 34:29 How do you shift from me versus you to us versus the problem? Especially in situations where the problem is you're drinking, or the problem [chuckles] is you're not motivated, or the problem is you've let yourself go, or at least that's what you think-

Terry Real 34:50 Yeah

Mel Robbins 34:51 ... you think the problem is with them.

Terry Real 34:53 Well, first have some humility. "This is what I think," or even more to the point, "This is what I'm not happy about. This is what's not comfortable for me. Look, I'm working, you're not. I come home, you're on the couch drinking a beer. The place is a mess. I, I, I gotta tell you, uh, Bill, I, I don't mind being the woman going out and being the breadwinner, but could you at least be a good wife when I get home? [laughing] I mean, this sucks." Keep it personal-

Mel Robbins 35:25 That sounds a little judgmental. [laughing]

Terry Real 35:26 Well, but, but keep it personal.

Mel Robbins 35:29 Okay.

Terry Real 35:29 Keep it humble. Keep it real. "Uh, uh, this is hard for me. You may not be uncomfortable with dot, dot, dot, but I'm uncomfortable with it. We live together. Can we talk about what needs to happen here?"

Mel Robbins 35:44 Um, is there a way to fight constructively?

Terry Real 35:48 Sure.

Mel Robbins 35:50 How do you do it?

Terry Real 35:53 This is what happened.

Mel Robbins 35:54 [laughing]

Terry Real 35:55 This is what I told myself, this is how I felt, and this is what I want. But listen to this-

Mel Robbins 36:01 Okay.

Terry Real 36:03 That third step, "This is what I felt"...

Mel Robbins 36:05 Yeah?

Terry Real 36:06 Here's a tip.

Mel Robbins 36:07 Tell me.

Terry Real 36:08 Take the feeling that comes to you first and put it last.

Mel Robbins 36:14 Okay. Anger. So, like, if anger is the thing that comes up for me first-

Terry Real 36:20 Yeah, last. If you're- if you lead with big, strong, "Argh!" check into your vulnerability.

Mel Robbins 36:29 Hmm.

Terry Real 36:30 What's underneath that?... Leave with that. Don't, "I come home to dead flowers, you son of a bitch. How can you-" No, "Who, what kind of person... " No. I come home to dead flowers, I, I mean, I, I don't feel cared about.

Mel Robbins 36:44 Mm.

Terry Real 36:45 It, it, it's kinda lonely. I felt lonely, I felt helpless, I felt, um, uh, uncared about, and I felt angry. Last, not first. And Chris will have a lot easier time hearing that. And conversely, if you're, like, codependent-

Mel Robbins 37:08 And how do you know if you're codependent?

Terry Real 37:09 You're the-

Mel Robbins 37:09 'Cause I think that that's one of those words that-

Terry Real 37:11 Yeah

Mel Robbins 37:11 ... I feel like it's out there, and I don't, I don't even know that I really understand-

Terry Real 37:16 Well, you call-

Mel Robbins 37:16 ... what codependent is.

Terry Real 37:17 You call it over-functioning.

Mel Robbins 37:19 Over-functioning?

Terry Real 37:20 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 37:20 Okay.

Terry Real 37:20 It's that anxious... It's the fixer. Anxious-

Mel Robbins 37:24 So, so codependent means that you only feel okay when everybody around you is okay?

Terry Real 37:31 That's right.

Mel Robbins 37:32 Oh!

Terry Real 37:33 And you're afraid to rock the boat.

Mel Robbins 37:34 Oh. Oh!

Terry Real 37:37 Yeah, that's what that means.

Mel Robbins 37:39 Okay.

Terry Real 37:40 And so, look, your relationship is your biosphere. If you're a one-up fighter, like you and me, Belinda, come d- your biosphere needs you to come down off your high horse. Uh, my feelings were hurt. Oh, your biosphere is happy with that. If you're a one-down fixer, don't set Daddy off, your biosphere needs you to stand up and find some spine.

Mel Robbins 38:06 How do you do that? Like, what, what is your advice to the person that's listening and goes, "Well, that is me. I need to make sure that everybody's okay. I'm always walking on eggshells. Everybody else comes first, but then, of course, I'm exhausted and resentful because nobody's taking care of me." How do I stand up? How do I start to change that adaptive, fixing, little kid in me?

Terry Real 38:30 Yeah, well, turn to that kid. Because you learned to run around and fix everything as a little girl or a little boy. What would have happened if you hadn't done that in that family you grew up with? The odds are all hell would have broken loose. The, uh... We always respect the intelligence of the adaptive child. You did what you had to do. Good for you. It's time to retire. You're not that little girl. Chris is not the family you grew up with. You can do something... Can I tell you a story?

Mel Robbins 39:08 Yeah, please.

Terry Real 39:09 This is my classic adaptive child story. Absolutely true story.

Mel Robbins 39:13 Okay.

Terry Real 39:13 Couple comes to me on the brink of divorce. He's a liar. Lies about everything. She says to him, "If you ask him what color shoes he has on, he'll lie and say he has sneakers." I mean, he'll lie about... And, uh, therapist will, he's the kind of- I walk in the office and I go: "Hi, Bill, the sky is blue." He goes, "Well, it's not..." He, he's not gonna tell me it's blue. Won't give it to me. So I get right away what his deal is, the adaptive child. He's an evader. Nobody's gonna get him. All right. Then I think, "Okay, the adaptive child is adapting to someone. There's someone on the other end of that seesaw." So I go, "Who tried to control you growing up?"

Mel Robbins 39:55 Hmm.

Terry Real 39:56 "His father," true story. Military man, how he said, how he ate, his friend. "What did you do with this controlling father?" He looks at me and he smiles. That's resistance, that smile. He says, "I lied. Dad said, 'Don't play with Henry.' I played with Henry. I told him I played with John." Smart boy. Good for you. Always respect the strategy that you learned as a kid, but retire them. You're in the back seat. Wise adult is here today. I can take care of this better than you can. Literally, when Belinda and I are having a fight-

Mel Robbins 40:37 Yeah

Terry Real 40:37 ... honest to God, and she's coming at me with anger, 'cause that's what we do. It, uh, it could be me. She... I have little Terry. I've worked with him, eight year old. I put him behind me. Between her anger and you, little Terry, is me, my big adult body. We have a deal. You're protected back there. Her rage stops with me, doesn't hit you. Here's your part of the deal: I deal with my wife, not you. You'll make a mess of it. So, okay, so i- here's my liar. So, smart boy. By the way, you're not five anymore, and your wife isn't your dad. See ya! True story. Two weeks later, they come back, hand in hand. "We're cured." And they were, Mel. I said, "Okay, there's a story here. Tell me." Over the weekend, she sends him to the grocery store to get 12 things. True to form, he comes back with 11. [chuckles] She says, "Where's the pumpernickel?" And he's gonna lie. Of course, he's gonna lie. He doesn't wanna get chewed out by his father. And he said, "Every muscle and nerve in my body was screaming to say they were out of the pumpernickel," which was not true. This moment, I took a breath. I thought of you, Terry. I was lending him my prefrontal cortex. We can do that for each other.

Mel Robbins 42:08 Mm-hmm.

Terry Real 42:09 I thought of you. I looked my wife in the eye, and I said, "I forgot the goddamn pumpernickel." It's absolutely true, Mel. She burst into tears, and she said, "I've been waiting for this moment for 25 years." That's recovery.

Mel Robbins 42:26 Hmm.

Terry Real 42:27 Come out of that adaptive child, into the prefrontal cortex, tell the truth, use a skill.

Mel Robbins 42:36 ... Wow! I can see how this relates to, um, that something you said in the very beginning, where when you fall in love with somebody, you think you're going to be rescued from the behavior in yourself that you feel stuck with, the rage or the sh- you know, shutting down, or the lying, or the, you know, walking on eggshells.

Terry Real 43:06 Yeah, whatever you learned to do as a kid.

Mel Robbins 43:07 Whatever you learned to do as a kid.

Terry Real 43:08 Whatever you needed to do as a kid.

Mel Robbins 43:11 Yeah. And so I can see how in the absolute bliss of a new relationship, and you're just falling, falling, falling, you believe that it's always gonna be like this, and sure enough-

Terry Real 43:26 Sure enough

Mel Robbins 43:27 ... what comes up is the opportunity to do the work, to become the wise adult, and not have the adaptive child and all of the default behaviors that happen when you get flooded emotionally-

Terry Real 43:42 You got it

Mel Robbins 43:43 ... or when you get triggered. And when you really think about the person as it's their adaptive child in the room with your adaptive child when you guys are emotionally flooded-

Terry Real 43:57 You got it

Mel Robbins 43:57 ... and any single thing, whether it's, "I forgot the fucking pumpernickel bread," or it's the, "And now she's gonna be a bitch, so I'm gonna lie," which is what I did as a kid, or it's the tiptoe walking, or the raging, or the venting, or the being right, or whatever. Like, every s- single one of those things, whether it's triggered by Amazon boxes, or it's triggered by pumpernickel, or it's triggered by their drinking-

Terry Real 44:26 Yeah

Mel Robbins 44:26 ... or it's triggered by absolutely anything.

Terry Real 44:30 Anything.

Mel Robbins 44:31 It's the same cycle. It's the same wound. It's the same emotions, and you're gonna be trapped there forever.

Terry Real 44:38 And, and here's where your work is genius. What we do when we're back in the old wound is we redouble our efforts to get that son of a gun to give us what they were supposed to give us. That's why we married them!

Mel Robbins 44:51 [chuckles]

Terry Real 44:52 Or we react out of that adaptation when they don't give it to us. We fight, we flight, we do whatever we do.

Mel Robbins 44:59 Yeah.

Terry Real 45:00 Here's the new news: take a breath. They ain't gonna give it to you. Watch this. How about if you give it to you? You were abandoned as a kid. You come home, dead flowers, abandonment comes up. Not 50-year-old Mel or four-year-old Mel. You turn to that four-year-old girl, "Chris may be abandoning you right now, but I'm not."

Mel Robbins 45:28 Hmm.

Terry Real 45:29 "I'm here. I got you, kid."

Mel Robbins 45:32 Hmm.

Terry Real 45:33 I like to say maturity comes when we deal with our inner children and don't foist them off on our partners to deal with.

Mel Robbins 45:41 Ooh, I love that. Maturity comes when we deal with that inner child, that adaptive self that needed to do whatever it does, whether it's the anger, whether it's the righteousness, whether it's the shutting down, whether it's... Whatever it is. When we deal with that person.

Terry Real 45:58 Love you, kid. When, when the inner child... Which means you're just- when you're reactive.

Mel Robbins 46:04 Yeah. So talk about emotional flooding and emotional over-functioning. What... Is that the same thing as the adaptive child?

Terry Real 46:11 Well, yeah. First you get flooded, that's the wounded child.

Mel Robbins 46:14 Okay.

Terry Real 46:15 And then you, you get yourself out of that flooding by moving into your adaptive child.

Mel Robbins 46:20 Gotcha. So you- the, so, like, let's just take it as fact-

Terry Real 46:24 Well, you walk in-

Mel Robbins 46:25 Yes

Terry Real 46:26 ... and the flowers are dead.

Mel Robbins 46:27 Yes.

Terry Real 46:28 There's a little Mel that was not taken care of, and that's what gets triggered.

Mel Robbins 46:35 Yeah.

Terry Real 46:36 And you're not your adult self feeling let down in a moderate way. You're that four or five-year-old little girl who was never dealt with the way she should have been, and it, it's... You're flooded, but you don't like that feeling of helpless, so you move from helplessness to attack, from one down to one up. These are the roots of violence for all of us.

Mel Robbins 47:01 Yeah.

Terry Real 47:02 And the one up feels better. It gets you out of that helplessness, but it makes a mess of your marriage. So you have to think your way down from the one up.

Mel Robbins 47:11 Hmm. Well, recognizing that you're just emotionally flooded is important.

Terry Real 47:15 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 47:15 Recognizing that you're now in [clears throat] react, react, react mode, which is why taking that breath-

Terry Real 47:21 Right

Mel Robbins 47:21 ... and consciously pulling yourself back into the wise adult.

Terry Real 47:26 Yes. Which may mean that you take a 20-minute walk around the block. Uh, you have a contract with your partner to, "Look, hey, I'm flooded. See you in 20 minutes." And, man, your partner says it, "Let them go."

Mel Robbins 47:40 Yes.

Terry Real 47:40 "Don't, don't corner an animal." "Okay, bye, hon."

Mel Robbins 47:44 [chuckles] Don't corner an animal. [laughing]

Terry Real 47:46 No, you don't want to do that.

Mel Robbins 47:47 [chuckles] That's incredible. Why does emotional over-functioning and shutting down, why do these patterns tend to attract people into a partnership?

Terry Real 48:02 'Cause it's your unfinished business. So m- may I?

Mel Robbins 48:06 Yes, please.

Terry Real 48:07 All right, here we go, Mel. Ready?

Mel Robbins 48:08 Yeah.

Terry Real 48:09 All right, so fighter Mel, your adapter child, is what I would call one-up and boundaryless. You're one-up, you're grandiose-

Mel Robbins 48:17 Yep

Terry Real 48:17 ... you're attacking, you're righteous.

Mel Robbins 48:19 Yep.

Terry Real 48:19 He's a, he's a dick.

Mel Robbins 48:20 Yes, 100%.

Terry Real 48:20 He's a dick. Uh, but underneath that are the feelings of abandonment, aloneness, which is your childhood wound.

Mel Robbins 48:29 Yeah.

Terry Real 48:30 Uh, uh, my friend and colleague, Gabor Maté, says, uh, "In relationships, you don't see the wound, you see the scar."... you don't see the wounded child, you see the adaptive child. So you come home, dead flowers. Little girl, Mel, not cared about the way she should have been. Oof! And if you were to sit with her, she'd be crying. She'd be lonely, but you don't, 'cause that's painful.

Mel Robbins 48:56 Mm.

Terry Real 48:56 So you go, phew, one up in your grandiosity, self-righteousness, attack. Now you're powerful, but you're making a goddamn [chuckles] mess of things.

Mel Robbins 49:06 [chuckles]

Terry Real 49:06 Take a break!

Mel Robbins 49:06 And then you feel bad about it-

Terry Real 49:08 [chuckles]

Mel Robbins 49:08 -'cause you don't wanna make a mess of things.

Terry Real 49:10 Well, you feel ba-

Mel Robbins 49:10 You don't want... Well, at least I do.

Terry Real 49:12 You feel bad about it five minutes later.

Mel Robbins 49:14 Yes.

Terry Real 49:15 You have a hangover.

Mel Robbins 49:16 Yes.

Terry Real 49:16 But in the moment, he deserves it. You're right. Let's go. And that's what this is all about. Then you take a break. "Hold it! I'm about to lose my shit. See ya." Or, "Hold it, I'm gonna shut down. Let me get myself adjusted, and I'm gonna come back and talk to you." Whatever the adaptation is, you gotta sit with that little part of you. It's okay. He loves you. He's an idiot about the dead flowers, but he does love you. Come back... D- don't ream him a new one. That's not gonna work. Come back and talk to him about what's going on. But you have to be in your right mind, and that's the opportunity. That- the healing doesn't come when you get the son of a gun to give it to you. That's the dream.

Mel Robbins 50:07 Mm.

Terry Real 50:08 The healing comes when they don't, and you deal with it, not the way you learned as a kid, but in a new way. That heals.

Mel Robbins 50:17 Okay, that is the most important thing, in my opinion, that you have said, because you are now pointing at the source of power and healing, and one of the mistakes is that we are trying to get that from our partner-

Terry Real 50:40 Right

Mel Robbins 50:40 ... and through our partner changing.

Terry Real 50:42 Right.

Mel Robbins 50:43 And what you just said is that the healing comes not from them changing. The healing that you need comes from you stopping yourself in that moment, taking a breath, not allowing all of the patterns of the past and the adaptive child to come in and fix or freeze or rage-

Terry Real 51:08 And make a mess

Mel Robbins 51:09 ... and make a mess, but to just see it happening and then bring the wise adult to the room and respond in a new way. That is the healing.

Terry Real 51:21 That's the healing. That's the opportunity.

Mel Robbins 51:23 You know, for somebody who, uh, tends to hold everything in, you know, the bottler, you, you, you see the thing that hurts your feelings, y- y- that y- you feel the emotion that is worry or hurt or abandonment or the- the thing bef- that's... You said always take the first feeling, anger, resentment, ra, ra, ra. Put it in the back. What's the feeling underneath it? For somebody that's, like, bottling it up, bottling it up, bottling it up.

Terry Real 51:52 They're feeling fear.

Mel Robbins 51:54 What are they afraid of?

Terry Real 51:56 They're afraid that if they tell the truth and rock the boat, it ain't gonna go well, and odds are they grew up in a family where it wouldn't have gone well.

Mel Robbins 52:05 Mm.

Terry Real 52:05 The adaptive child is not stupid. You learned to do what you goddamn needed to do back then, but you're not back there anymore.

Mel Robbins 52:14 Mm.

Terry Real 52:15 That's the beauty.

Mel Robbins 52:18 How do you learn to communicate your feelings in these little moments instead of just putting it aside and putting it aside until you reach a breaking point?

Terry Real 52:31 Well, you have to dare to rock the boat, and it-

Mel Robbins 52:34 This goes back to the three steps: dare to rock the boat and tell the truth, listen, and then teach somebody what you want, and reward them in a kind way when they do.

Terry Real 52:45 And for those of you listening, it may be that your childhood trauma... We always said y- you can have little injuries-

Mel Robbins 52:52 Mm-hmm

Terry Real 52:53 ... and have an adaptive child that's screwing things up. That's true. But you can also have big injuries.

Mel Robbins 52:57 Yeah.

Terry Real 52:57 Big. You can have grown up in a family where y- y- you learn not to tell the truth because if you did tell the truth, it would not be a good idea. Okay, that was then. This is now. It really helps to separate the wise adult

Terry Real 53:15 from the adaptive child.

Mel Robbins 53:16 What does a healthy, connected relationship really look like in practice?

Terry Real 53:22 Telling the truth to each other with love and being human. You know, uh, there are times Belinda and I are at each other, and I really wouldn't want a video camera recording what [chuckles] we sound like. [chuckles] I like to say to my clients, "Look, the skills I'm teaching..." Uh, here's what I say: "Uh, every skill I..." I've been married for 40 years. "Every skill I teach ha- has been clinically tested. She's the clinic." [laughing]

Mel Robbins 53:50 [laughing] My God!

Terry Real 53:52 [chuckles] And on those days, when either Belinda or I, or God help us, if we both at the same time, lose our wise adults and just go with the adaptive child, we look just as ugly as you two. I say that to my patients. They love hearing that. They say, "I'm just like you." Uh, use your skills as best you can. Expect the wheels to come off sometimes. Nobody's gonna die. When they do, get back in your wise adult, make amends, apologize, own your shit, get back on track. We're a biosphere. We love each other. Let's work this out.

Mel Robbins 54:33 I can say every single fight, issue, breakdown that I have had in my 29 years of marriage, I can now 1,000% see-... that it's this feeling of being alone, and that it's all on me, and it is like freaking clockwork.

Terry Real 54:56 Yeah. And-

Mel Robbins 54:57 Once you see it, you will see it everywhere.

Terry Real 55:00 Everywhere. And you know what? What a blessing. So but maybe after this conversation, but I want you to email me or tell me, what a blessing it would be for you to come home, the goddamn flowers are dead-

Mel Robbins 55:12 [chuckles]

Terry Real 55:13 -and instead of ripping his head off, which he then shuts you down-

Mel Robbins 55:17 Yeah

Terry Real 55:17 ... you say to him, "You know what, honey? Shoot me. I know you didn't mean it. I saw those dead flowers. I'm back in my little girl not being cared about, and it made me sad."

Mel Robbins 55:31 Hmm.

Terry Real 55:33 You see what he does then.

Mel Robbins 55:35 Yeah. Well, I can also not get mad at him, and I can also assume good intent, and I can also know that, like, a lot of times he does remember, and I... And, and this is, like, something we fought about 10 years ago, so it sounds kinda funny to even be thinking about it now-

Terry Real 55:49 Yeah

Mel Robbins 55:49 ... 'cause it's not, [chuckles] not... It's one of the ones that... But the point is, the little things become the big things because the little things are the source of bringing up-

Terry Real 56:00 The little things, the little things resonate with what happened to us.

Mel Robbins 56:04 Mm.

Terry Real 56:05 So they take on bigger meaning.

Mel Robbins 56:07 Mm.

Terry Real 56:08 But what you say is right. You know, I love talking to older couples, uh, and I ask them about their life. I, I saw... It, it had to be late a married 50. I said, "You guys seem happy." "We are." They said, "Tell me." "Oh, the first 15 years were hell."

Mel Robbins 56:22 [chuckles]

Terry Real 56:23 "Really?" "Yeah, horrible. I, I kept trying to change Harry, and then one day..." This is absolutely true. I'm not gonna con- But, "And then one day I looked at him, and I went, 'Oh, that's Harry.' Okay. Ever since then, we've been fine." [laughing] There is a place for... I call it scanning for the positive instead of scanning for the negative.

Mel Robbins 56:45 Mm.

Terry Real 56:45 Be appreciative. Tell your partner what they're doing right instead of always harping on what they're doing wrong.

Mel Robbins 56:52 So there are so many listener questions, uh, that we have, and I'd love to read one from a listener in Chicago: "We've been together for 12 years. We love each other. There's no doubt about that. But if I'm being honest-

Terry Real 57:06 Huh!

Mel Robbins 57:07 ... it feels like the spark is gone.

Terry Real 57:09 Oh.

Mel Robbins 57:09 Same routine, same conversation, same habits, same every- There's no fighting, there's no big drama, but there's no real excitement or passion either. I don't even know what desire would look like for us anymore. It feels flat, and here's the part I'm struggling with. I want to bring that spark back, but I don't want it to be forced or fake. How do we actually reconnect with desire and intimacy after years together without pretending or going through the emotion- the motions?"

Terry Real 57:40 What makes you think they would be fake? Why don't you start off by saying to your partner what you just wrote to me? Why don't you tell the truth? Look, I, I did a whole book, audiobook, I called it Fierce Intimacy. Lean in and deal with each other. Most people don't. We stop. 'Cause when we do, we're so unskilled, it doesn't go very well.

Mel Robbins 58:00 Mm.

Terry Real 58:01 So we back off, we say we're compromising, but we're not, we're not. We resent it. Distance grows, sexuality dies. If you wanna keep your relationship juicy, tell the truth to each other. Take each other on. Start with this: We're flat. Maybe you're okay being, you, you know, watching TV every night, but I'm not. Let's go do ballroom dancing. And then, like, "Okay, you're flat. What are you gonna do about it?" Y- you show up in a m- with a mariachi band. You, [chuckles] you know, you, uh, go to the, the sex store and get some, uh, uh, velvet chains. I don't know. What are you gonna do to mix it up? Why are you waiting for your partner to do it? But tell the truth to each other. We stop doing that because we're very unskilled, and when we do, it doesn't go well.

Mel Robbins 58:56 Hmm.

Terry Real 58:56 We have to learn how to do it.

Mel Robbins 58:58 Here's another question: "I've been married for 11 years, and I'm realizing I've become the critic in the relationship. I notice everything my husband does wrong, the socks on the floor, the way he loads the dishwasher, the tone when he talks to the kids. It's like I'm constantly scanning for what's off or annoying, and here's the thing, I don't wanna be that way. He's a good man. I love him, but I rarely notice the good stuff until he points it out. Like, why is it that you only mention what I'm doing wrong? And he's right. I don't wanna keep showing up this way. I just don't know how to switch out of this mindset. How do I stop scanning for what's wrong and start seeing what's good again?" What's going on in this dynamic? 'Cause I think that's really relatable when you got somebody picking on somebody all the time.

Terry Real 59:39 Yeah, it's a form of control. I would say, uh, "Who was the complainer in your family growing up, hon? Where'd you learn this from?"

Mel Robbins 59:48 Hmm.

Terry Real 59:50 There's an adaptive child in there that thinks that picking at him is gonna be a good thing. And then the other issue is, man, intimacy is scary. Vulnerability is scary. Does it feel safer to be constantly nagging what's wrong than to open up and receive what's right?

Mel Robbins 1:00:16 Hmm.

Terry Real 1:00:17 And that's so true for all of us, and the more damage you had as a kid, the more frightening it is. We fuss with each other because being close to each other in itself can be trauma-triggering for us. It's scary to be vulnerable and close. You have to allow it. That's, uh, the piece I work with next. First, we deal with what you do wrong. We deal with what came, where it came from. We give you the skills to do it different.... Now, you have to receive it.

Mel Robbins 1:00:56 Mm.

Terry Real 1:00:57 And that's brand new for a lot of us, and it's frightening. It's m- I talk about miserable, comfortable; happy, uncomfortable.

Mel Robbins 1:01:07 Let's talk about miserable, comfortable. What does that look like?

Terry Real 1:01:09 It looks like the same old, same old. You could do it in your sleep, but you could do it in your sleep. You're perfectly comfortable there. "Oh, uh, Chris, honey, when I came home and those flowers were dead, I was back in my family, and I didn't feel very cared about." How's that feel? Fricking scary, that's how that feels. It's a lot more comfortable to go after 'em. Adapted children, you're safe, you're comfortable. You could do it in your sleep.

Mel Robbins 1:01:45 Mm.

Terry Real 1:01:45 Wise adult, new, courageous, scary. Good, go there with help, with support, 12-step group, woman's group, but support that will support your relationship, not your individual power.

Mel Robbins 1:02:02 What's so interesting is everybody wants love and wants to feel loved, and I'd never thought about it as a skill to allow yourself to be loved.

Terry Real 1:02:18 Yeah, and it- it- it's hard. So, I- when I'm working with a couple-

Mel Robbins 1:02:24 Mm-hmm

Terry Real 1:02:27 ... uh, partner A starts giving partner B what they want. Now we move into what I call transmission reception. Partner A is transmitting. How is partner B doing receiving?

Mel Robbins 1:02:38 Mm.

Terry Real 1:02:39 When your partner starts giving you what you want, do we fall in their arms and go thank? No, we don't. "It's too little, too late. You did it, but I had to ask you," uh, all these "yes, buts," that's to protect ourselves from the vulnerability of being loved. Allowing our hearts to open, allowing the love in, n- that's scary, and the less love you had as a kid, the scarier it is to let yourself-

Mel Robbins 1:03:10 Mm

Terry Real 1:03:10 ... love and be loved as an adult. I have to tell you a story-

Mel Robbins 1:03:13 Oh, tell me

Terry Real 1:03:14 ... a- about the nitpicker guy?

Mel Robbins 1:03:15 Yeah, the nitpickers, please.

Terry Real 1:03:17 I was doing a men's group, and one guy floored everybody. This is a true story. He said, "My wife walked in today, told my, uh, admin, 'Hold the phone.' She had a picnic basket, laid out a picnic on the ground, champagne, a little smooching, packed up everything and left." All the other guys are like, "Oh, my God, that's fantastic!" He looks at us all... It's a true story. He goes, "It almost makes up for the way she chews her potato chips." [laughing] You wanna, you wanna fuss with your partner's imperfection, they will give you... It's like vision, e- e- endless opportunity to... No, be brave. Open your heart. Be vulnerable. If you're a one-down fixer, the vulnerability is standing up for yourself. That's what's scary. If you're a one-up fighter, the vulnerability is moving into the hurt. Be a human. But either way, open your heart, take some risks. Intimacy is what we're born for, and respect it. It's frightening.

Mel Robbins 1:04:35 So is that story in the joke an example of how somebody blocks out the love and intimacy?

Terry Real 1:04:42 Yeah. Yeah. I did work with the great feminist psychologist Carol Gilligan here. We would work together, uh, uh, and I called it Carol's invariant description. I'd be doing all this fancy, cool, and she'd t- t- uh, sorry, Carol. She said the same damn thing every time. She'd look at a couple, and she would go, "You know, Bill and, and Julie, intimacy's really scary, isn't it? You guys were just close to each other, and f- and then, Bill, you brought up a fight from a week ago, and, Julie, you took the ba- now you're back in your corners, safe and miserable. Isn't it hard to just be in the naked vulnerability of loving each other and being close?" And every time... Of course, it would be beautifully timed. Every time she would say it, they burst into tears, and she was [chuckles] always right. [chuckles] It's scary to be intimate.

Mel Robbins 1:05:36 Mm.

Terry Real 1:05:36 It takes courage.

Mel Robbins 1:05:38 Mm.

Mel Robbins 1:05:40 "I'm 34, and I'm realizing I have no idea how to be in a healthy relationship. I either give way too much, I over-function, people please, twist myself into knots trying to keep everyone happy, or I do the opposite. I shut down, shut people out, convince myself I don't need anybody. I swing between the two. It's exhausting. It wasn't modeled healthy love growing up, and now that I'm older, I don't even know what healthy is supposed to feel like. How do I start figuring that out? What does a healthy relationship look like, and how do I learn to trust myself enough to build one?"

Terry Real 1:06:14 Well, I brought up Carol Gilligan. Here's one of my great quotes from her. I love this: "You cannot love from the one down" That's running around, cleaning everybody's mess. "You cannot love from the one up," shut down, I don't care about anybody. "Love demands democracy." So this person has to learn how to be in the biosphere. There's no relationship without voice. There's no voice without relationship. That's also Carol.

Mel Robbins 1:06:42 Can you do this with yourself all day long? Like, if work is pissing you off, if work makes you shut down, if a friendship makes you get angry?

Terry Real 1:06:55 ... Yeah, although what's interesting is we tend to be more on our wise adults with everyone but our mates, and sometimes our kids. Uh, they, they just don't get at us in the same way. Uh, but yeah, your adaptive child's all over the place. We do, uh, consulting to teams that aren't working or-

Mel Robbins 1:07:13 No, but I meant like if she's single, and so she's not in a relationship, and she-

Terry Real 1:07:17 She is in a relationship. She has a relationship. She's got parents, she's got friends, she's got siblings-

Mel Robbins 1:07:23 Okay

Terry Real 1:07:23 ... she's got a dog. We're all in relationships, and it's the same skills and the same work.

Mel Robbins 1:07:29 Got it. So if the question is, "I look at my track record, and I do not trust myself, and I don't know how to do this, and it wasn't modeled," and you've already said, Terry, it hasn't been modeled for anybody, and nobody teaches these skills, you can start applying absolutely everything-

Terry Real 1:07:48 Now

Mel Robbins 1:07:49 ... right now.

Terry Real 1:07:50 Right now.

Mel Robbins 1:07:50 Even if you're not in a romantic relationship right now.

Terry Real 1:07:54 You're still in a relationship.

Mel Robbins 1:07:55 Yeah, you're still in relationships, and so these are the tools that you can use for any relationship.

Terry Real 1:08:01 This way of thinking relationally, not individualistically-

Mel Robbins 1:08:05 Mm-hmm

Terry Real 1:08:05 ... and these tools, of telling the truth with love and non-harshness, but telling the truth, they're so different from the culture at large, and they're so potent, that doing them badly will transform your life. [laughs] A- and here's the great news, Mel, you can start doing them badly right now. [laughing] Go ahead!

Mel Robbins 1:08:30 Because it's such a disruption to the way we run around, and pretend, and lie, and please, and shove our feelings down and rage, that simply trying to do these things badly, telling the truth, using "I" statements, not venting, not trying to be right-

Terry Real 1:08:47 Your partner will be blown away.

Mel Robbins 1:08:49 Well, you'll also be blown away-

Terry Real 1:08:50 You should be

Mel Robbins 1:08:51 ... by yourself.

Terry Real 1:08:52 It's a happier way to live.

Mel Robbins 1:08:54 Well, I often joke, Terry, that, you know, people say that second marriages are really amazing, and I say, "That's especially true if it's with the same person."

Terry Real 1:09:03 Well.

Mel Robbins 1:09:04 And I feel like the tremendous amount of work that I've done on myself, and that Chris and I have done together, it feels like a completely different relationship, because I feel way more peaceful.

Terry Real 1:09:16 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:09:17 And I was... I know you, you will say this is probably not true, 'cause we're all out of control when we don't understand that adaptive child and the behaviors that come out on automatic when you're emotionally flooded. But I felt so out of control with my anger, with my frustration, with my feelings of being alone, even though I'm married, that I thought it would always feel that way.

Terry Real 1:09:47 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:09:48 And it's shocking how quickly you can start to apply these skills and feel more peaceful, and in control, and in harmony with yourself first.

Terry Real 1:09:59 That's the joy.

Mel Robbins 1:10:00 Yes.

Terry Real 1:10:02 A- and you also get a better relationship.

Mel Robbins 1:10:04 Yes.

Terry Real 1:10:04 It's both. Uh-

Mel Robbins 1:10:06 What happens... W- can you speak a little bit about that feeling of you're in a relationship, and yet you're really lonely?

Terry Real 1:10:11 I call that, um, alone together.

Mel Robbins 1:10:14 Alone together?

Terry Real 1:10:15 Yeah, being alone together. And it's because you're not telling the truth-

Mel Robbins 1:10:20 Mm

Terry Real 1:10:20 ... and you're not getting through. You know, that cliché of the couple at the restaurant that's sitting there with nothing to say?

Mel Robbins 1:10:27 Oh, my God, you see so many?

Terry Real 1:10:29 Yeah. Well, here's what I say: It isn't that they have nothing to say, it's they have too much to say and no way of saying it. That's why they're sitting there in silence.

Mel Robbins 1:10:40 If the person listening is feeling like, "Okay, I'm together alone, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna, like, I, I'm, I'm gonna start telling the truth and then blow this whole thing up?"

Terry Real 1:10:52 Well-

Mel Robbins 1:10:53 Isn't it better to just be together alone, in- instead of blowing up my life?

Terry Real 1:10:58 I mean, first of all, learn.

Mel Robbins 1:11:01 'Cause I think that's the fear.

Terry Real 1:11:03 Well, of course it's the fear, and if you go off like a 7-year-old adaptive child, the... uh, what I call, uh, individual empowerment, "I was weak, now I'm strong. Go screw yourself"

Mel Robbins 1:11:15 Mm.

Terry Real 1:11:17 ... the person may blow up. So getting through to somebody is an art. You have to learn how to do it. But even that is just maximizing your possibility. At the end of the day, it goes like this: first, learn some skills, do it well. That beating the person over the head probably has something to do with why they're not listening to you. [chuckles] Two, once you learn the skills and you do your best, if you're still not getting through, get help. Get a couples therapy, and get a couples therapist who really helps, which many don't. Three, ready?

Mel Robbins 1:11:58 Mm-hmm.

Terry Real 1:12:00 If you're still not fully there, I have a tool: "Should I stay or should I go?" And I call this tool a relational reckoning, and it's a question. You ready?

Mel Robbins 1:12:15 Yes.

Terry Real 1:12:16 "Am I getting enough here to make grieving what I'm not getting worth my while? Am I getting enough to make grieving what I'm not getting okay with me?" You know what? Bill was a real playboy, a real lover, and he had partner after partner who swung from chandeliers. He's now married to a woman, one out of four, who has a sexual abuse history. She ain't swinging from chandeliers. She needs it slow and gentle. Does Bill miss the wild, old days? Yes. That's okay.... Is he gonna trade her in for one of those crazy sex dolls? No, he loves her. I'm getting so much that letting go of what I'm not getting is okay with me. And if that's your answer, stop bitching and embrace what's good.

Mel Robbins 1:13:21 Hmm.

Terry Real 1:13:21 If your answer is, "It's not okay with me," first stop is therapy, and second stop is you're done. But don't keep living like a resentful victim. It's bad for everybody.

Mel Robbins 1:13:40 I'm just letting that sit. Because it's easy to get yourself in a situation where you stay with the wrong person, and you're right about how resentful you are and what a victim you are.

Terry Real 1:13:55 Yeah, why are you staying with the wrong person? First of all, your first shot is turning them into the right person, which I know goes against [chuckles] a little of what you've been saying, but you turn them into the right person by using your skills.

Mel Robbins 1:14:08 Well, you- they don't even have an opportunity to be the right person if you haven't done the work to-

Terry Real 1:14:13 Of asking for the work.

Mel Robbins 1:14:14 Well, and also bringing the wise adult-

Terry Real 1:14:18 That's right

Mel Robbins 1:14:18 ... yourself-

Terry Real 1:14:19 That's right

Mel Robbins 1:14:19 -to the relationship and then seeing who shows up-

Terry Real 1:14:22 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:14:22 ... when you're safe and when you're wise, and when you are in the moment, and calm, and kind-

Terry Real 1:14:29 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:14:29 ... and asking for what you need.

Terry Real 1:14:31 You, you totally got it. What do you mean... What does that mean, they're the wrong person? And maybe if you change your behavior, guess what happens on the other side of the seesaw? Maybe. But why don't you give that a shot? You know, everybody who sees me is what I call an essentialist. "What's wrong with my marriage?" Them. "What's wrong with them?" Them. Well, that's who they are. Yeah, a true story. Harry, well, uh, Harry, whatever his name was, comes: "No sex in my marriage." "Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. How long?" "Decades." "Why?" "She's frigid. You know? She's just a cold person. Whole family cold." "Good." I bring in Mrs. Harry. "No sex?" "No, of course not." "Of course not? Yeah, you wouldn't wanna have sex with him. He, uh, he's a premature ejaculator, has been for decades. If I try and talk to him about it, he just flies into a rage. He has no interest in my needs, and anytime I try and address it, it just gets... Forget it!" I bring in Harry. This is a true story. "Harry, I've got great news for you. [laughing] That sexless marriage you're in, you have something to do with it!" Once you stop blaming the other person and start to see that it's a system, if it is, you change your behavior and then see what happens. But first, change your behavior.

Mel Robbins 1:15:54 So did they stay together?

Terry Real 1:15:55 Yeah! Uh, they started having sex. He taught... She taught him how to be a better lover, and he w- with, uh, I mean, this is where I come in. "Harry, it's in your interests. Come down off your high horse. Let her teach you. You want her in bed with you? Make it worth her while." It goes back to what... Make it worth her while. "Uh, really? Uh, okay, I will." "Good, do it." That's what most therapists don't do.

Mel Robbins 1:16:25 Do you think any relationship can be repaired?

Terry Real 1:16:31 No, and I'm not in the business of repairing every relationship.

Mel Robbins 1:16:35 So what are some of the circumstances or, like, lines in the sand for you that are important to say?

Terry Real 1:16:42 Um, in terms of non-starters, it goes without saying, but if you're physically in danger, uh, i- if you're talking... I don't ask people to tell truth to power when they're gonna get hurt if they do it.

Mel Robbins 1:16:58 Hmm.

Terry Real 1:16:58 And there are, unfortunately, some reality to that. So we don't do couples therapy if there's a threat of domestic violence. If you're the victim of honest-to-God physical threat-

Mel Robbins 1:17:09 Hmm

Terry Real 1:17:10 ... get some help, get some safety. That's not couples work. That's your work to get safe and your kids safe, and, uh, that is absolutely intolerable, period, end of story. Some are obvious. Somebody's got an addiction they don't wanna deal with, alcoholism, sex addiction. Someone is, uh, chronically irresponsible, and they don't wanna deal with it. Somebody has a major mental health disorder, depression, anxiety, they don't wanna deal with it. All bets are off.

Mel Robbins 1:17:44 Hmm.

Terry Real 1:17:44 Then some are more subtle. If there's a relationship where there's a clear, um, asymmetry in the maturity levels of the two people-

Mel Robbins 1:17:55 Hmm

Terry Real 1:17:55 ... eventually, the immaturity of the immature one will be too painful for the other one to live with, and they should go. Go find a better partner. But before you go find a better partner, see if you can get this one to be a better partner by changing your moves on your side of the net. First try that.

Mel Robbins 1:18:19 How honest should you be with your friends and family about the challenges in your relationship? Like, where do you see the line from just sort of healthy sharing and, you know, trying to get support because you feel like you can't talk or whatever reason, versus sharing way too much that might hurt the partnership?

Terry Real 1:18:40 Not family. Friends. But-

Mel Robbins 1:18:44 What do you mean, not family, friends?

Terry Real 1:18:45 Well, you, you don't want y- your mother-in-law listening to Chris bitch about what a rager you are. You don't want that.

Mel Robbins 1:18:54 No. You know, one of the biggest fights that Chris and I have ever had in our 29-year marriage was the fact that he shared things with his mom-... that we were struggling with. Like, he went to her for help. I was so angry about it. I felt so, like, betrayed, because it felt like I was no longer married to Chris. It felt like I was now married to her son, and she was now in the middle of this issue we were trying to work out privately. And it caused a major rift, not only between me and Chris, but I felt all of this distance with my mother-in-law, who I'm, uh, you know, really close with. But for at least a year, like, I just... It was really awful. And I know he didn't mean it, and I know he was just looking for the support that he needed, but wow, I, I, I have to say, do not go outside your marriage and bring in your family. It's not fair to your spouse, because you're not in a relationship with your mother-in-law. You're not in a relationship with... You know, your partner's not in a relationship with your dad, they're in a relationship with you. So give them the respect to work on it internally. Oh, I, I'm so glad you said that. I'm so glad you said that. 'Cause while the intention, I think, was beautiful, the actual impact and result was very difficult and damaging. And we've, of course, cleaned it up and learned from it, but wow! Now, what about friends, though? 'Cause you said friends are okay? And, and what are the parameters?

Terry Real 1:20:37 Train- I teach people this: train your friends to support relational empowerment, not individual empowerment.

Mel Robbins 1:20:46 Okay, what does that look like?

Terry Real 1:20:47 Train your friends to support the relationship-

Mel Robbins 1:20:51 Hmm

Terry Real 1:20:51 ... not you as an individual. If they're gonna support your marriage, then you can bitch about your partner. But if they're gonna take your complaining about your partner as license to empower you at the expense of the relationship, that's not a friend you want. So what happens when you talk about your relationship? And even that, you're not pass- You can train your friends to support the relationship-

Mel Robbins 1:21:18 Hmm

Terry Real 1:21:18 ... so that it's safe to complain. You know, I complain about Belinda, she complains about me. Our friends listen, and they go, "Okay, have you ever thought that maybe you might dot, dot, dot? Oh, come on, man, think about it." That's a friend.

Mel Robbins 1:21:34 So you just say to them, "I need you... I, I'm gonna come to you. I wanna come talk to you about something going on, but I want this to work. You know I love him." That, is that how you say it? Like, how do you say it?

Terry Real 1:21:45 Yeah. I, I, uh... You're empowering me to even be more of a fighter or even more righteously indignant. That is no help to me.

Mel Robbins 1:21:57 Hmm.

Terry Real 1:21:58 So if you're gonna be my friend, I'm gonna talk about my marriage. This is what my adaptive child looks like. You know that. I don't need more support to be a fighter. Or Chris would say, "I don't need more support to shut her down." Take a look at what I'm saying, and then give me some advice and support about what I can do different.

Mel Robbins 1:22:20 Terry, could you speak directly to the person who's listening or watching right now? And if they take just one action based on everything that you have taught us today, what do you think the most important thing to do is?

Terry Real 1:22:39 Listen, first figure out if you tend to be one up or one down. If you're one down, have some courage, with love, not harshness. Lean in and deal. If that doesn't work, get some help. If you're one up, get off your goddamn high horse. Show some vulnerability. I don't care if you're right [chuckles] Right is not gonna save your marriage. Ask your partner, "What do you need?" Uh, come off of your selfishness and lead in a new way. If you're small, get big. If you're big, get small. Try something new on your side and see if that changes things.

Mel Robbins 1:23:31 I love that, if you're small, get big; if you're big, get small. I mean, if you're small, get big, and if you're big, get small.

Terry Real 1:23:41 If you're one up, come down. If you're one down, come up. Democracy, democracy, democracy.

Mel Robbins 1:23:48 Meaning it's we.

Terry Real 1:23:50 We.

Mel Robbins 1:23:51 It's not me above you.

Terry Real 1:23:53 And it's not me-

Mel Robbins 1:23:53 Or it's not me below you.

Terry Real 1:23:55 No.

Mel Robbins 1:23:56 It's me. So when you say one up, you mean you're the one who's acting big in the relationship, and you feel above the person.

Terry Real 1:24:05 Right, right.

Mel Robbins 1:24:05 And when you say one down, you're saying-

Terry Real 1:24:08 You're scared

Mel Robbins 1:24:08 ... you're now small and scared-

Terry Real 1:24:10 You're scared

Mel Robbins 1:24:10 ... and you feel below the person.

Terry Real 1:24:13 Right.

Mel Robbins 1:24:14 Oh, so the one up is you're big, and that's loud, and angry, or righteous, or venting, or any of that stuff. And one down is you feel small, and you might be fixing, or you might be shutting down, or you might be pulling away. Like, it's the-

Terry Real 1:24:30 Find some courage.

Mel Robbins 1:24:31 Find some courage.

Terry Real 1:24:32 If you're one up, yield, open your heart, surrender, be vulnerable. If you're one down, lean in, have courage, stand up for health in the relationship. It's not even standing up for yourself. Stand up for the biosphere. A lot of women, in particular, think, "It's selfish of me to stand up for my needs." No, it's good for your biosphere. Stand up for the biosphere.

Mel Robbins 1:25:01 Terry, I know this conversation is going to spread around the globe, and that so many people are going to listen and-... feel their hearts and a new possibility open.

Terry Real 1:25:17 I hope so.

Mel Robbins 1:25:18 And then they're gonna hit share, and send this to their partner, and say, "Could you listen to this, please?"

Terry Real 1:25:28 Good.

Mel Robbins 1:25:29 "I would love to have you speak directly to the person who is here," because their partner sent this to them.

Terry Real 1:25:38 Great. Love that.

Mel Robbins 1:25:39 And what do you want them to know?

Terry Real 1:25:43 This is what I want you to know, my friend: It is in your interest to learn how to do this. It's in your interest. We are born to be relational. If your partner is giving you this episode, it's because they want you to open your heart. They want you to be a more relational human being. This is what we're born for as a species. This is what makes us healthy, not just mentally, but physically. We are born to do this work. It's been lost, and we need to retrieve it for ourselves, for our families, for our children. If you don't wanna do this for yourself, and you don't wanna do it for your partner, do it for your kids. They need you to open your heart and be in a functional relationship. And do it for the planet. We are treating Mother Nature out of this dominance model. It's obsolete and is suicidal. Learn to do this differently. You'll live 10 years older, your partner will be happier with you, your sex life will improve, and your kids will talk to you, and you might actually do something to save the world. What the hell? Give it a shot.

Mel Robbins 1:27:06 [laughing] Thank you for saying that, because I don't want somebody who receives this to experience it like, "Oh, they're trying to fix me. They're trying to change me." It's really an invitation.

Terry Real 1:27:19 It's an invitation. And I, uh, wanna say I admire your heroism to even entertain the possibility. This is hard. I started off by saying this. This is not easy, but the rewards it will give you, your family, your children, are almost inexpressible. It's hard work. Look, break the chain.

Mel Robbins 1:27:47 Terry Real, you're real good. [laughing]

Terry Real 1:27:52 [laughing]

Mel Robbins 1:27:52 Thank you. Thank you, thank you for the work that you're doing, and thank you for being here and sharing all of this wisdom with us, and giving us tools so we can practice these skills, so that we might just heal ourselves, and in the process, make our relationships better.

Terry Real 1:28:12 You're wonderful to speak with. You're a wise woman, and it was hard-won. Takes one to know one, though. So bless you for the work you're doing, too.

Mel Robbins 1:28:23 And I also wanna thank you. Thank you for taking the time to listen to this. Thank you for really letting what Terry was teaching us sink in. Thank you for sharing this with your partner, with the people that you care about. There's no doubt in my mind that if you take everything to heart, and you use the tools, especially those four questions... I can't wait to share this with my kids, with Chris. Oh, my gosh. There's no doubt in my mind that your relationships are gonna get so much better. And in case no one else tells you today, I wanted to be sure to tell you, as your friend, that I love you, and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And if you apply all of the advice that you just heard, there is no doubt in my mind that your life will get better, and so will your relationships. Alrighty, I will see you in the very next episode. I'll be there to welcome you in the moment you hit play. Alrighty, and I also wanna say thank you to you here on YouTube with me. Thanks for watching all the way to the end. Thank you for sharing this episode and the wisdom of Terry Real with your partner, with the people that you care about, that deserve more love and better relationships in their life. And I know you're thinking, "All right, Mel, what should I watch next?" Well, if you loved this, you are absolutely gonna love this one next, and I will welcome you in the moment you hit play. [outro music]