The Mel Robbins PodcastMayo Clinic Cancer Doctor: 5 Foods That Heal the Body, Starve Cancer, & Prevent Disease
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,308 words- 0:00 – 1:37
Meet the Guest
- MRMel Robbins
What are the top foods to avoid because of cancer?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
You know where I'm gonna start, right? Ultra-processed foods. Processed meat is a class one carcinogen. So this is pepperoni, this is sausage, this is bacon, this is even chicken nuggets, this is lunch meat.
- MRMel Robbins
Today on the Mel Robbins Podcast, we're talking about five cancer-fighting foods that starve disease and heal the body with a Mayo Clinic doc. My jaw was on the floor, yours will be too.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
So I did a study at Mayo Clinic in my cancer center. Guess what I learned? 95% of our patients aren't getting the recommended vegetables and fruits. People who had two or less servings of vegetables and fruits a day versus people who had five. Those people that had five had a 10% reduction in dying from cancer, a 12% reduction in dying from heart disease. There was a 35% reduction in dying from respiratory disease. Food is medicine.
- MRMel Robbins
Food is medicine.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
We take antioxidants to fight cancer, we take all these expensive pills and powders, right? Just eat your kiwi.
- MRMel Robbins
Now why does a kiwi prevent cancer?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
It's super cool. So this really gets, like, on the cellular level. There's 150% more anthocyanins in these purple sweet potatoes than there are in those berries.
- MRMel Robbins
What is anthocyanin and why does it matter?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Power. It's- this is, like, jewelry right here. These are like jewels for cancer.
- MRMel Robbins
What are the top three things a cancer patient should be doing, Dr. Musalem?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Well, I would start, number one is...
- MRMel Robbins
Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
- 1:37 – 14:17
Dr. Mussallem’s Incredible Story of Resilience and Hope
- MRMel Robbins
Dr. Musalem, thank you so much for hopping on a plane and being here. I'm so excited to talk to you.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Thank you, Mel. It's- this is, like, a surreal experience. I have goosebumps from head to toe. I live with goosebumps, but I really have them right now.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
And I was so excited flying out here. I- I slept good last night, but I didn't even feel like I needed to sleep, I'm so energized, so.
- MRMel Robbins
I can tell. And I'm energized too, because you have so much to teach us today.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Mm.
- MRMel Robbins
Um, I'd love to start by having you speak to the person who is here with us right now, and tell them how their life might change for the better if they really take everything to heart that you're about to teach us today and they apply it to their life.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
I love that. It can almost bring tears to my eyes actually. You know, I want each of you to be truly awakened to your aliveness, unapologetically. Life is so very, very precious, and I just want to take every single person listening and be able to move them from a place of hope to knowing that they too can flourish despite whatever adversity they have in their life. So let's do it.
- MRMel Robbins
Let's do it.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
Well, we're gonna cover so much. I mean, you've been practicing medicine for several decades. We're gonna discuss food that can heal your body and starve disease. We are gonna go through a specific list of foods, one by one, that you should be eating in order to avoid cancer. We're gonna talk about specific foods that I want you to avoid because they cause cancer. But one of the reasons why we tracked you down and we wanted to sit down and learn from you is because you're not only a medical doctor, and you're not only a researcher, and you're not only in a clinical practice helping heal people that have a cancer diagnosis, but you also are a cancer survivor yourself. And when you were 26 years old in medical school, that's when you got the diagnosis. And so before we jump into everything you're about to teach us, I'd love to hear about that moment in your life.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And how that impacted how you practice medicine.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Yeah. Thank you, Mel. I learned a lot in medical school, but I learned everything about how to be a doctor as a patient. And it was just a few months into medical school. I mean, I lived the perfect healthy lifestyle growing up. Had a very loving family, and we really participated in healthy living. And a few months into medical school, first time in my entire life I wasn't feeling good. Big into athletics. I would climb Camelback Mountain in Arizona twice a day, and all of a sudden, it was hard. Saw a doctor, he said, "Use an inhaler. It's adult asthma." I didn't ask any questions, he didn't even listen to me. Didn't get better. Saw a second doctor, he said, "Use it more." He still didn't listen to me. The third doctor said, "Oh, it's in your head. This is something that happens to all medical students. It's called psychosomatic, meaning it's in your head, and then the soma, the body, you manifest these symptoms." It was a few days after that doctor told me that it was in my head that I collapsed, and I went to the hospital. I was in cardiogenic shock, my heart wasn't even beating properly. There was a 16 centimeter mass wrapped around my heart, and the tumor was compressing all the great vessels in my neck. So they took me to urgent surgery, and the next day the doctors came in the room and they said, "You have stage four cancer." They said, "You have three months to live without treatment, 20 months to live with treatment." And, you know, so many people would say, "Well, were you angry?" You know, "What was the emotion?" And I was just given this gift of grace. I just took that diagnosis, and I knew that there was a deep lesson there for me, especially as a medical student, and I stayed the course. I stayed in medical school, and I listened to what the doctors said I needed to do to survive, and I showed up for myself. I stayed busy with the healthy aspects of living that we're gonna talk about today because I was able to attain my vitality during my entire cancer treatment and then flourish, as you can see today, thereafter. So I just learned so much about the human experience, both when we're well, when I was younger, as well as what it's like to be a patient when you're not well.
- MRMel Robbins
There is so much to unpack in just that. When you woke up from that surgery, 'cause that sounds like there was... Well, first of all, I gotta start with, you can go up Camelback two times? I mean, I dragged myself up there and was so out of breath and lightheaded that thankfully there was, like, an Army ranger veteran who was hiking down as I was stumbling down who had to lead me down the mountain. Like, that- that- that right there is unbelievable. But I think a lot of people have had that experience where you're like, "I know something's wrong."
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And then you are told by somebody, "No, no, no, no, it's all in your head. You're gonna be fine." But for you...That sounds enormous, that it was wrapped around your heart, it was compressing against you. You know, you held up your hand toward your throat. You then woke up from surgery. But it sounded like you just kinda went on with your life. So I wanna just say, what did the doctors tell you to do? Because you said, "I followed the medical advice."
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
But you also did a second thing, which is instead of focusing on the cancer, you focused and tripled down on the healthy aspects of your life. And so let's just first talk about what did the doctors say you should do that you did, and then let's talk about what are the, you know, healthy things that you focused on.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Yes. So, you know, the doctors said, "I'm, you're gonna need to do chemotherapy," and I didn't question it. I knew my body needed chemotherapy. Here I am in the specialty of integrative oncology, where I really use evidence-backed natural therapies to help to mitigate the toxicities of treatment, to improve the outcomes of treatment, and also reduce other chronic diseases. I knew that I needed the chemotherapy to get rid of this cancer.
- MRMel Robbins
So were you studying cancer medicine? Is that why you went to medical school?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
You know, I have a fascinating background. Before I went to traditional medical school, I actually went to naturopathic school, and my undergraduate training was in exercise physiology and nutrition.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
So this has just been, like, weaved into my spirit and soul since I was actually a little girl. As a young kid people would ask, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" Like they alway- I said, "I want to live to be 100 years old." Eh, I just loved wellness. I was actually obsessed with it. I thought it was the coolest thing.
- MRMel Robbins
How old are you right now?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
51.
- MRMel Robbins
You, well, that's fantastic. Uh, if I were betting on anybody living to 100, it would be you.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
I think so. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
For sure. And there's a lot that I, I know that we can learn from you, both in terms of the medical research and the way that you tripled down on healthy living and vitality and things that are accessible to all of us.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Mm-hmm.
- 14:17 – 20:52
Prescribing Exercise as Cancer Treatment
- MRMel Robbins
you leaned into that. And what I wanna know is, what are the healthy things that you focused on when you got that stage four cancer diagnosis?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Exercise, number one. You know-
- MRMel Robbins
Even during chemotherapy?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Oh my gosh, I started feeling so much better, you know, 'cause the tumor started shrinking. So it was like, "Holy cow, I can breathe again." So yes, I still exercise. The exercise research centered around cancer is incredibly exciting. We didn't really know it back then, but it's likely why I'm alive today because I really still continued that exercise. Not high intensity. D- I just did what I could do because the cancer treatments are dropping your blood cell counts, you're oftentimes anemic, and you are tired. So I listened to my body. When I rode that bike, it was slow. I didn't worry. There was no ego attached. I was just moving my body. I share with my patients, "I know you're exhausted, but I need you to go walk at least five or 10 minutes after each meal. I need you to push yourself." You know, this is not easy, but we have a choice and sometimes we gotta push ourself. And in doing that, we can get energized. And so that is what I recommend, number one, is move your body. It is critical. Very, very important. The other thing with exercise people don't realize is it uses up that stress, all that adrenaline. If you think back to the caveman and the saber-toothed tiger would jump out, the caveman would outrun it, right? And he'd sleep like a baby at night, "Oh." And us, we don't have the saber-toothed tiger, but we have all these stressors, whatever it may be. Maybe it's not cancer, could just be the stress of life, and we're just wound up so tight with the anxiety. So that exercise helps the mood, it helps beat the cancer, and actually augments the treatment response, we now know. It's magic. We know that in breast cancer that exercise can improve breast cancer outcomes. I mean, are you ready for... This gives me chills. Almost 50%. I mean, this isn't a little number. This is like a, a magical number. There was just an amazing colorectal cancer study showing that exercise is looking as favorable as, as chemo. You know, this doesn't mean it replaces chemo. It means we do it together so we can cure cancers.
- MRMel Robbins
So you focused on exercise. Were there any other healthy habits leaning into vitality that you did when you were diagnosed with stage four cancer?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Oh, yes. You know, food is medicine, and this was really before the whole focus on food really became apparent, but it's always been something that's been very special to me. So I continued eating that healthy diet. And even in the days when I didn't really feel up to it, you know, the chemotherapy changes how things taste in your mouth. It's very metallic. Oftentimes you get sores, and with the type of treatment I had, you have a bunch of mouth sores, so it's... it hurts.
- MRMel Robbins
Ouch.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
So... But this is the blessing in this is I know what that was like. So when I sit down with patients, I can be very mindful and think, "Okay, I know where she's at in this treatment. I see how she's talking to me. Her mouth obviously hurts. Let's touch on this and let's figure out some food swaps." Or maybe she's having scrambled eggs with cheese on a piece of white bread with butter and a piece of turkey sausage. You know, that, that's not the end of the world probably, but there's a lot healthier way that I would like that woman to eat. So I'll do a swap. I try to flip what she's eating in a way that it's still something she's accustomed to, something that she looks for something more savory, she's not looking for something sweet in what she usually eats, and we'll give her something a little bit healthier to eat that would be, um, maybe more in line with her cancer treatment to give her some of the phytonutrients that comes from plants that can help to make her feel better and maybe even improve those treatment outcomes.
- MRMel Robbins
So you've talked about exercise, you've talked about tripling down on healthy foods because food is medicine, as you just said. You also talked about your attitude, like really lasering in on how beautiful the sunrise is instead of focusing on the cancer diagnosis. Anything else that you leaned into when you were diagnosed with stage four cancer?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Yeah. You know, acceptance.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
You can't fight it. You have to accept it. You have to work to accept it. It's really hard at first, but if you fight it, you're just gonna be in that battle longer.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
And oftentimes I'll read that people say, "She battled with cancer." There was never a battle. It truly was just this grace of acceptance and then moving in the direction I knew I had control over, and that was where I showed up for myself with healthy living-... and let the doctors do what they did best.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, there's this super famous quote from, I can never say this word, it's like hippocrats or, hippo- h- hippo- how d- how do you say this word? (laughs)
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Hippocrates.
- MRMel Robbins
Thank you.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
It's perfect.
- MRMel Robbins
Thank you. I- I c- y- y- you know, it ta- I- Mark Twain said, "It takes a simple mind to spell a word one way." I say it takes a simple mind to say a word one way. So Hippocrates, thank you, the ancient Greek physician said, "Let food be thy medicine." And, you know, I hear you say this all the time. Is there data to back up the assertion that food can prevent or heal diseases?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Absolutely. There's overwhelming evidence that food is a big problem in our country today with the levels of chronic disease we have. And in fact, in the Journal of the American Medical Association in 2022, what they published is that food is the leading cause of death in our country.
- MRMel Robbins
Wait a minute. Food-
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Food.
- MRMel Robbins
... is the leading cause of death in the United States?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
What does that mean, Dr. Musalem?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
It's a massive driver. With the consumption of ultra-processed foods, 60% of our diet is ultra-processed foods. 67% of our children's diet is ultra-processed foods. And so what's happening with that, you know, there's additives in those foods that just aren't good for our body. Those foods aren't good for our gut microbiome. And then when we eat that much food that's fake, there's no room for the healthy stuff, so you're weeding out the opportunity to get the stuff that matters. Every time you put food in your mouth, you have an opportunity to be a healthier version of yourself or an unhealthier version of yourself, so you really wanna pay attention to that. And it doesn't have to be perfect. This is never about perfection, but it's in an effort to be more consistent about doing better is what I would say. And have joy over that. You know, sometimes I have women come in and they are what some would consider eating the perfect diet, but they feel like they're hostage to that diet and they're not-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
... loving it and they're not having joy over it. So it's really trying to find the healthy foods that you enjoy the taste of.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, I often wonder, I mean, that's a startling statistic that the leading cause of death in the United States is food because it's ultra-processed. You know, there's all this obsession with labeling things organic. I've often wondered, wait a minute, don't we have this backwards? Shouldn't we be labeling things chemical?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Yeah. (laughs)
- 20:52 – 34:00
The 5 Foods That Help Your Body Fight Cancer
- MRMel Robbins
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
I know.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, in fact, speaking of food, you have a list of foods that prevent cancer. You can explain why they prevent cancer. And so I wanna bring them in and then we're gonna walk step by step through each one and have you explain how a particular food that you eat will help you prevent cancer.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Let's do it.
- MRMel Robbins
Let's do it. All right. Let's bring that in. So the first thing I see is a bowl of berries. Let's talk about frozen berries. Why do frozen berries prevent cancer?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Yeah. Berries are incredible, and you know, it's such an easy way to start your day. And a lot of people worry 'cause berries can be expensive, especially if they're-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
... fresh. And so what I tell patients is, "Don't worry. Just buy them frozen." And the frozen wild berries, they don't need to be organic. They're wild. They're growing in nature. So get those frozen wild berries. This is a beautiful mix of berries here, which I love, and I really try to have my patients do a cup a day. These are loaded with anthocyanins. They're-
- MRMel Robbins
What is anthocyanin and why does it matter?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
It's this powerful phytonutrient. All of these-
- MRMel Robbins
What's a phytonutrient? What does that mean?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
I know. Isn't... It- it's a crazy word, right? So-
- MRMel Robbins
These are big words, Dr. Musalem.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Phyto is the color, the color-
- MRMel Robbins
Oh.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
... in these vegetables and fruits, and the nutrient is what's gonna help feed our body, everything that we want to help to, again, anything we eat, we can try to turn on all these activations that can help to mitigate cancer from forming, and if you have it, we can help to turn off some of those genes as well. So there's research with berries that's so exciting, both for breast cancer prevention as well as breast cancer survivorship. You won't believe this. For every two servings a week, it can reduce the risk of breast cancer, and for breast cancer survivors, for every two servings a week, it can reduce the risk of dying from breast cancer by 25%.
- MRMel Robbins
25%?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
I know. (laughs) It's a huge number. So-
- MRMel Robbins
Two servings of frozen berries a day?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
A week.
- MRMel Robbins
A week?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
A week.
- MRMel Robbins
That's it?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
That's it, but we wanna do more.
- MRMel Robbins
With a 25% reduction?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
25%. This was in the Nurses' Health Study. Such cool data, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Wow.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
And they're delicious. You know, this is- what's interesting about modern food though is there are many people that will taste these berries, they will not taste how delicious they are because the food today is so adulterated with chemicals and they make the food so that it has extra flavor on the palate. And so it can take a little bit of time as people are transitioning to a healthy diet to adjust their palate so they can appreciate the taste of food. And what I see that's so unique to cancer patients is when you have that cancer diagnosis, you know, your mortality is being threatened. You're ready for change and it seems that switch flips immediately. It seems like they start tasting the beauty of their food-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
... so much more quickly than patients that I may happen to see that have no active cancer. It takes them much longer to find the harmony and pleasure of how this wonderful food tastes. So I just want people to be patient when you start tasting these foods, especially if you're used to the ultra-processed foods. You may not notice how amazing these taste. I have patients say, "Oh, my gosh. I didn't know strawberries tasted so good." It's really cool. Takes them a while to let those fake foods kind of flush out of their system and they start to appreciate it. So berries, but guess what? These purple sweet potatoes, can we talk about those?
- 34:00 – 44:33
Debunking Common Food Myths
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
- MRMel Robbins
Tell me about the black beans there. T- t- let's talk about beans, and why do they prevent cancer?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
So beans are really awesome. So there is so much benefit. This is an amazing plant protein. But when you think about plant protein, you're not just getting protein, you're getting fiber.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
And fiber is obviously in all of these plant foods. You only get fiber from plants. And fiber is magic. I mean, oh my gosh, we could talk for two hours on fiber it's so important. And you hear a lot right now, like, "Get protein, get protein, get protein." So yes, you need protein. There's no doubt you need protein. But the problem is, is the majority of Americans, just like the vegetables and fruits, they're fiber deficient. 95% of men are fiber deficient and about 91% of women are fiber deficient. This is a massive problem. There was just something called a, we call an umbrella review, meaning they did this very exciting review of all of the data to date. This was just published this year. 17 million person-years in the study. And what it showed us is that there's class one evidence, this is, like, the highest quality evidence we have in medicine, that fiber can help to reduce dying from any cause, dying from heart disease. It can also reduce the risk of dying from pancreas cancer in this class one evidence.
- MRMel Robbins
What?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
It's really exciting. There was another study, another review of the data that was just published that showed that fiber can help to reduce the risk of cancer by 22%.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay, hold on. Fiber-
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Fiber.
- MRMel Robbins
... can help reduce the risk of cancer by 22%?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
22%. But we have 90%, over 90% of people that aren't getting enough. So let's talk further. So I always think about food swaps with people.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Like, how can we maybe just swap one thing out? You know, you don't have to do beans at every meal. And a lot of people say, "Oh my gosh, you're gonna make me gassy." Well, just start slow. You don't need to do too much. And cook them really good. So let's talk about this a little more. There's an enzyme in beans. (laughs) This is so fun. It's like food is medicine, right?
- MRMel Robbins
I love this.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
It's like fun facts. So there's this enzyme, it's called raffinose, and that's the gassy one.
- MRMel Robbins
Raffinose is the gassy enzyme.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
It sounds like it.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah, it does.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
It's, like, such a lovely word, raffinose.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes, yes.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
That's why you wanna soak beans. So if you buy them dry-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
... it's such an inexpensive, so much less expense than meat.
- MRMel Robbins
It's so cheap too. Yes.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
It's so cheap.
- MRMel Robbins
Buy the beans dry, put them in the Crockpot overnight, yep.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Soak them, you got it.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
You wanna soak them and then rinse them really good and then cook them. That's why-
- MRMel Robbins
Why do we need to rinse them really good?
- 44:33 – 52:36
The Magical Benefits of Kiwi
- MRMel Robbins
every day. Um, let's talk about ... Let's talk about kiwi.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Oh, kiwi.
- MRMel Robbins
So I see kiwi.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Oh my gosh.
- MRMel Robbins
Why does kiwi prevent cancer? And I see you smiling, you love kiwi. Tell me why you love kiwi so much, Dr. Musalem?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
These little things, they're so cute, but they help with regularity, meaning poop. So I would say 90% of women coming in to see me, they're not having any bowel movements and they feel bloated. They feel full. They f- I mean, it's just, I can't imagine how people feel. Some people say they don't have a bowel movement for 10 days.
- MRMel Robbins
How i- Oh, that sounds horrible.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Can you imagine? It's really bad, because when that poop sits inside, you're auto-intoxing, you're reabsorbing all those chemicals into your body as it's sitting there.
- MRMel Robbins
Wait, what? Hold on a second.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
So when you're constipated, the waste, which is poop, is just sitting there in your system. You're reabsorbing the waste that's trying to get out?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Yeah, it, it reabsorbs.
- MRMel Robbins
What?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Yes, it's very ... You want to get rid of that waste. You ... Ideally, you know people are supposed to have a bowel movement after each meal?
- MRMel Robbins
You're supposed to have a bowel movement after each meal?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
No one does that, 'cause in America we're in this fast-paced ... So k- we kind of as kids like learned that, no, y- you know, you go maybe after breakfast when you're home and maybe after dinner if you're lucky. No one typically is going after each meal. But ideally, that's best. Oftentimes patients transition to this more plant-predominant diet.
- MRMel Robbins
Uh-huh.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
And they'll call my nurse and say, "I think something's wrong. She put me on this diet and I'm, I'm pooping. I'm having a bowel movement after each meal." And the nurse is like, "Oh, no, no, no, she loves that." You know? (laughs) So this is cool though, so let's say someone is just struggling, they are constipated for whatever reason.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Maybe it's their treatment. We give Zofran for nausea for cancer patients, it causes a lot of constipation. Kiwi, two kiwi a day, after about a week or two can help you with that constipation.
- MRMel Robbins
Why?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
It just helps with the different sorts of soluble fibers and mucinous fibers and proteins and whatnot that are in this, it helps with it, but i- it's better than that. At the level of DNA, these are rich in vitamin C, but at the level of, of our DNA, it can help to reduce oxidative stress. You know, think about an antioxidant. We take antioxidants to fight cancer, we take all these expensive pills and powders, right? Just eat your kiwi. But I, I, I love this with the skin, right? The skin is so great because it's more fiber for you. So this is a wonderful food to add in, it helps with the overall diversity of what you're consuming.
- MRMel Robbins
Now why does a kiwi prevent cancer?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
It's super cool. So this really gets like on the cellular level, which can you imagine, like that's how, how great is it?
- MRMel Robbins
That's so cool. Food is medicine.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
It's so cool. So at the level of DNA, it can reduce oxidative stress. So we go and we buy antioxidants, we spend all this money on pills-
- MRMel Robbins
Wait, hold on. What is oxidative stress? Like I see it on packaging, but what actually is it?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Yeah. So oxidative stress is what comes from us from everything as simple as breathing oxygen from the environment, to having any stressors in life-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
... to just really living.
- 52:36 – 1:02:14
Avoid These 5 Cancer Causing Foods
- MRMel Robbins
care about. So we've talked so much about the foods that you can eat that activate the natural intelligence in your body to prevent or cure cancer. Let's talk about the top five foods that we should avoid that cause cancer.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Yeah. You know where I'm gonna start, right?
- MRMel Robbins
No.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Ultra-processed foods.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay, so anything-
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Number one rule.
- MRMel Robbins
... in a box?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
No, not necessarily. What I s- Because we are in a busy, fast-paced life, so we need easy solutions, me included, right? So what I do is I spend a lot of time in the grocery store. And I tell my patients, "Listen, you're going to, too. This is, this takes time."
- MRMel Robbins
Okay. What am I looking for-
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Gotta make a commitment.
- MRMel Robbins
... when I'm in a grocery store?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
You're gonna look at that ingredient list on the box, on the package, whatever it is you're buying that's not in the produce aisle. So as soon as you go in the aisle, you know, when you're on the perimeter, it's kinda like Whole Foods. Soon as you're in the aisle, let's look at those labels and see what's in the ingredient list. If there's words in there that you're like, "What the heck is that?" put it back on the shelf.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
You just don't need it. You just don't. Look for those ultra-processed foods on the ingredient list with words that we have no clue what they are. You know, there was a study that was really, really fascinating. It was done o- out of the UK, and it showed that, you know, almost 30% of the food by weight was ultra-processed food. And for every 10-point increment increase in that ultra-processed food, yes, it certainly drove the risk of cancer, but this is a really startling statistic. It drove the risk of dying from breast cancer by 16% and increased the risk of dying from ovarian cancer by 30%. Like, these numbers c- create almost a visceral response. It almost makes me sick to share that, because that's, that's really harsh to think that fake food can have that kinda impact. And we know that it drives risks of chronic diseases, these fake foods. Diabetes, heart disease, you know, all these things. The number one killer of women and men is heart disease. And we know these ultra-processed foods just wreak havoc there, too. There was another study. You know, when you start to think about, well, what constituents are ones I really need to be careful of.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
So there was another study done among 92,000 individuals from France. They followed them for almost seven years. Okay, here's another one. So this is a hard one to believe. It drove the risk of breast cancer with the consumption of mono and diglycerides.
- MRMel Robbins
Who? Mono and di g-
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Listen.
- MRMel Robbins
Uh, okay, what is that?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
This is in everything. So you know those wrap sandwiches that we make?
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
They're either, uh, you know, they're healthy. We're doing a good job. We're, like, trying to eat a healthy veggie wrap.Many times, these wrapped sandwiches, to get it so it rolls nice-
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
... they add that mono and diglyceride to make it roll nice.
- MRMel Robbins
Mono and a g- glyceride. It's, that's what I'm looking for.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Mono and diglycerides drove the risk of breast cancer by 24%. Okay, prostate cancer, it drove the risk by 46%.
- MRMel Robbins
Did you hear that, gentlemen? Get the, do not eat that.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
But listen, these mono and diglycerides are in a lot of stuff. So we have people that hear maybe what I'm saying, they're like, "Oh, maybe I should be vegan." That is not my message. My message is whole food, plant predominant. That's really where I want people to be is that whole food component. The vegan ice creams, I had a patient before I came here yesterday. She was doing vegan ice cream thinking she was doing good. You know, it, I just said, "Just do the regular ice cream. How often do you do it?" She goes, "Once a week." Enjoy your ice cream. You don't, you don't need the fake stuff.
- MRMel Robbins
Because there's a lot of fake stuff in a lot of that stuff.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Just because it says vegan doesn't mean it's healthy. Look at the ingredient list. Get rid of those mono and diglycerides. Carrageenans drove breast cancer risk by 32%. For a long time, we found this a lot in plant milks. Ugh. You know, people are trying to be healthier, and then we find these ingredients that aren't good are in these foods. So, so take a look at the ingredient list, uh, it's really, really important, and just try not to do those chemicals that wouldn't otherwise be good for your body.
- 1:02:14 – 1:05:05
The 3 Things Every Cancer Patient Should Be Doing
- MRMel Robbins
think.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Aw.
- MRMel Robbins
So you talked about exercise. Let's talk about how exercise, particularly when you have a cancer diagnosis or you are battling some other illness, talk to me about the healing properties in exercise.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
You know, there's this really cool mechanism that takes place that we're still doing research on. It appears that exercise during that period of chemotherapy improves cancer outcomes. We see this with metastatic breast cancer too, so it's extremely exciting. And the one hard thing with cancer treatment is oftentimes people lose muscle, you know, and that's the metabolic tissue. So if you can try to do your cardiovascular work to try to really keep that cardiorespiratory, meaning the heart and lungs, as fit as possible, but also even trying to lift some weights during your cancer treatment, it can really help to maintain that muscle, which is gonna make your survivorship easier. Like I shared the statistics with breast cancer, as you exercise as a breast cancer survivor can improve outcomes by 50%.
- MRMel Robbins
Meaning the cancer doesn't come back?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Yeah. It r- it improves survival from all causes from breast cancer by up to 50%.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
It's a really powerful number. You know, if someone cornered me and said, "What is the most important thing a cancer patient should do?" I, I wouldn't really answer one. I would refuse to answer one, 'cause there's, like, three things at the top of the list.
- MRMel Robbins
What are the top three things a cancer patient should be doing, Dr. Musalem?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Well, I would start, number one is love. Love self, love others. It starts there. It's that simple. Because if you don't love yourself enough to show up for yourself, to exercise, move your body, and take time to find healthy food, you're not gonna be able to do this, so we gotta start there.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Love self and then love others. Like, just open that heart and be kind. It feels so good. Like, I love you. And I love all of you.
- MRMel Robbins
I love you too.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
I just... It just feels good. You say that and you elevate the energy of the room. And if you do that, you're gonna be more energized, you're gonna have more pep in your step, even during that chemo, to go walk. And, you know, it's kind of a responsibility even to help others. We feel good, so we should be kinda good stewards in the world to share that energy with people that aren't doing as good today, to help them. So, starts with love. Show up for yourself, move your body. You don't need to be running marathons, just go for a little walk. I say, hey, five minutes counts, even if you're walking around your kitchen. Hey, do a few dance moves. I don't care. Dance with your husband. It doesn't matter, just move. You don't need to go to a gym.
- MRMel Robbins
Love, move, and what's the third thing every cancer patient should be doing?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Yeah. It, it... Hey, it's the food. And you know that's my favorite. Like, food is love 'cause ............................ It's gonna give you the energy, nourish your body, help you with regeneration, actually turn off those tumor promoter genes, turn on those tumor suppressor genes, and it's just gonna optimize everything from your mood, to your sleep even, which we'll talk to in a little bit here, to that gut microbiome and beyond. So the food is fun. Let's do it. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
Absolutely
- 1:05:05 – 1:10:10
Sleep: The Most Overlooked Medicine
- MRMel Robbins
love this. Uh, well, let's talk about sleep.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Does sleep help you prevent cancer?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Oh. Sleep is rough. Man, I... So I, I live a pretty healthy lifestyle, but I, I sleep like a baby, but I just can't find time for sleep these days. I would just rather be activated and alive. But listen, that sounds funny, right? It, it... That's not actually a funny thing. We need sleep. Sleep is when our brain gets its bath.
- MRMel Robbins
Talk to me.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
What, what do you mean your brain gets a bath?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Seven to nine hours is what it takes for the brain to kind of get its little washing to get rid of all those toxins. So you need to... I just joke with my patients, like, "Yeah, no stinky brains. Get your sleep." I just did a talk for the Mayo Clinic staff. I said that they kinda... All these very brilliant, like, the smartest people in the world are kinda like, "Okay." Patients love that stuff. Academics, they don't always find it cute, but this is the truth. Wash your brain. You know, sleep hygiene, we call it sleep hygiene for a reason 'cause your brain needs its bath, but there's things we can do to improve the quality of our sleep. And really what's so important is that when you wake up, you get that first morning sunlight. Getting that first morning sunlight resets that circadian rhythm. And then, man, we need to be careful with the screen exposures, because all that blue light that's emitted, especially if you don't wear the blue blockers on your glasses-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
... it just drops and drops and drops your natural melatonin. So when you go to bed at night, you either can't fall asleep, or if you do, you can't stay asleep. And it's because of all of that blue light, especially after sundown. So aim for those seven to nine hours of sleep, and we know that's when your body is regenerating. There are studies that actually show us in people who do shift work-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
... that there's increased risk of cancers. And, e- listen, these people can't help it. That is what they, that is what they're should-
- MRMel Robbins
What is the connection between not getting good sleep and cancer risk?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
There may be a lot of things contributing to that. You know, is part of it that if you're not sleeping, are you just not as energized to do as much exercise? This is where it's hard to control for confounding variables. So what-
- MRMel Robbins
Got it.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
... is it that's driving that? But we know that one of the main mechanisms is you're getting that restorative period in your body that is very, very critical in terms of optimal health from all health conditions.
- MRMel Robbins
So when you talk about the fact that if you get seven to eight hours of good sleep, right-
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... and you prioritize that, that it's also when your brain is getting a bath and it's clearing out the toxins, why does that matter when it comes to preventing cancer or diseases or curing yourself of the, like, different...... health things that you're dealing with.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
You know what I think, Mel? The biggest reason why individuals who don't get enough sleep aren't as healthy as they should be, that goes right in line with that cancer discussion, is because it really disarms metabolic health. You know, so moving beyond that brain health into what else is happening in the body, we know in people that aren't getting adequate s- amount of sleep or good quality sleep, that it really is interfering with optimal metabolic health or control of blood sugar during the day.
- MRMel Robbins
So when you say metabolic health, what should I, as somebody who's not a medical doctor (laughs) with all your-
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... experience and expertise, what should I hear in plain language?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
It's tricky, right? And again, we ta- chatted about how 93% of Americans fall in this bucket of not being metabolically healthy. I really would love if doctors checked something called a hemoglobin A1C in their patients. This is an average blood sugar level over a three-month period of time.
- MRMel Robbins
Hemoglobin A1C?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
A1C. It's a simple blood test. You know, it's tricky though, 'cause oftentimes Medicare doesn't like covering it. And-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
... you know, doctors just need to code properly and really try to get that test checked. And at the end of the day, if your doctor doesn't check it, just do the things that we're talking about, because we know those are the things that'll move you forward with being more metabolically healthy. Get the seven to nine hours of sleep. We know if you get less than that, generally we see a little bit of an insult to that metabolic optimization during the day. The blood sugar control just isn't as, isn't as optimized.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, it kinda makes sense, because if you really, if I really think about both the jaw-dropping research that you're talking about-
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
Mm-hmm.
- 1:10:10 – 1:14:23
Why Losing Muscle Increases Your Cancer Risk
- MRMel Robbins
anything worse from happening. So could you explain just, just why you keep referring to muscle being really important for your cancer patients, and muscle being something that's important for preventing cancer. What, medically speaking, is the reason why muscle is so important when it comes to preventing cancer or curing it?
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
I love that, and it's such a perfect segue, 'cause we were talking about metabolic health.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- DMDr. Dawn Mussallem
You know, the muscle is what takes up the blood sugar. So when you exercise, if you eat a meal and you go for a five or 10 minute walk, those muscles are gonna take up some of that blood sugar. That's a great thing to do. You know, and so muscle is what's so critical. The fat just sits there. It doesn't do anything metabolically. But the muscle requires some maintenance, right? It needs energy. And so that's where the blood sugar's gonna go when your body takes it up, and that's what is so important and so awesome. And it's strength. You need strength to be functional so you don't fall as we get older. And so muscle is critical. And I think muscle also partners so importantly with bone health. You know, that's a big thing that I see in my breast cancer patients, especially in those on those anti-estrogen medications. I was a hospital physician for the first 10 years of my career at Mayo Clinic, and it was nothing that broke my heart more than a breast cancer survivor that was cured of her breast cancer, 78 years old, falls and breaks her hip, because she has massive osteoporosis from all those anti-estrogens she took. So you know, we've got to think about muscle so you don't fall, keep you strong. When you strengthen your muscle by doing the resistance training, you keep those bones strong too. So you get all kinds of benefits by doing those strengthening exercises to keep the muscles strong.
Episode duration: 1:44:14
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