Secret Service Agent Explains Psychological Tricks To Read Anyone & Spot A Liar

Mel Robbins 0:00 You served on this elite polygraph unit for the Secret Service. You were trained to be a human lie detector.

Evy Poumpouras 0:08 They call 'em examiners. I was like, "Nope, nope, nope. Don't want it." I didn't take a single criminal justice class. Zero.

Mel Robbins 0:15 I mean, that right there proves that anybody can learn anything. As somebody sitting there and you're going through a polygraph exam, you've got colleagues that are watching you, what are the list of things that you're assessing?

Evy Poumpouras 0:28 We'll do an example. "Hi, Mel. You know, I'm Evy. Good to meet you. Where are you from? Where were you born? What's your date of birth?" As you're answering these, you're looking at me, you're nodding your head up and down.

Mel Robbins 0:38 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 0:38 "Okay. I got

Evy Poumpouras 0:39 Mel's baseline. Tell me about what happened on the night of March 15th, 1998."

Mel Robbins 0:45 I'll tell you what, sitting here right now, I feel like I'm in an investigation, and I'm about to get my ass thrown in jail. Were you ever in a moment where you were truly tested?

Evy Poumpouras 0:54 I remember pulling my weapon out and actually pointing it at him, and it was close to his head. And I'm thinking, "Am I gonna shoot this guy?"

Mel Robbins 1:00 Did you shoot him? Hey, it's your friend Mel, and I'm so glad that you're here with me today so that you and I can spend some time together. It is always an honor to be able to be with you, and I just want to acknowledge you for choosing to listen to something today that could help you create a more meaningful life. And if you're a new listener, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast family. I am so glad that you're here, and you're gonna be glad that you tuned in to listen to this episode because you're gonna be learning from a fascinating person today with such a unique life experience, who has so much to teach you. Evy Poumpouras is a former special agent with the US Secret Service who has served during the presidential administrations of President Bill Clinton, President George W. Bush, and President Barack Obama. She's also served on the Secret Service details protecting former presidents George HW Bush and Gerald Ford. Her extensive and decorated career includes operating undercover, complex criminal investigations. She was an interrogator for the Secret Service's elite polygraph unit, which means she has been specifically trained in the art of lie detection, human behavior, and cognitive influence. She is also a best-selling author and professor of criminal justice. You might even recognize Evy because when criminal cases grab the world's attention or breaking news makes us all wonder, "Who's telling the truth?" every single news network on the planet has Evy on speed dial to analyze body language and critical verbal cues that suspects, politicians, and celebrities are sending so that you can tell when someone's lying. It's a real honor to have Evy here because Evy has received the United States Secret Service Valor Award for actions as a first responder during the 9/11 terror attacks on the World Trade Center in New York City, and I'm so excited and grateful that she has made the trip to our studios here in Boston to give you a master class from over three decades of decoding body language for some of the most elite law enforcement agencies in the United States. I am so glad that you're here.

Evy Poumpouras 3:17 Thank you, Mel. Me too.

Mel Robbins 3:18 I have been admiring you from afar and online like a stalker that the Seve- Secret Service would take out. (laughs)

Evy Poumpouras 3:25 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 3:25 And now I'm so glad to be sitting here with you.

Evy Poumpouras 3:28 I'm very humbled. Very humbled. Thank you for saying that.

Mel Robbins 3:31 Here's where I want

Mel Robbins 3:32 to start. Could you tell the person that is listening to us right now, how does learning some of the skills that you're gonna talk about, like knowing when somebody's lying to you or displaying confidence, how does that change your life?

Evy Poumpouras 3:49 All these things, confidence, reading people, it makes you steady and makes you grounded, so I think that that's where a lot of this is going to lead people to. A lot of the stuff I share are things that were taught to me by very exceptional people that helped me on my path and still help me to this day.

Mel Robbins 4:07 You have a remarkable career. So when you were a little girl, were you like, "I wanna be in the Secret Service"? How did you even get into this career?

Evy Poumpouras 4:13 No, no, no. Like, I was like... I'd get pulled over by cops. I'm like, "Psh. Who's this bozo?" Literally in my head. I may have even verbalized it. Nope, didn't know anything about law enforcement. My family was not in it at all. I, I wish I could say, like... Actually, I don't wish I could say. I know sometimes people have a plan. I never had a plan. I went to college like everybody else. I did, while I was in college, I interned for a congresswoman, Con- Congresswoman Carolyn McCarthy. I remember her very well. And even that, like, I would've never thought I'd intern for a congresswoman. It was just, like, a bulletin board thing, and I sent my name in. And through that, I was really exposed to government, and I always had this kind of, "I wanna help people, I wanna do right in the world." I think my compass has always been purpose. So but honestly, completely, li- just by mistake. Honestly, I was on the subway. I'm going Downtown Manhattan to a job that I got right outta college. It was, um, underwriting for AIG. I don't know if they're still out there. If you are, I'm sorry.

Mel Robbins 5:12 (laughs)

Evy Poumpouras 5:12 (laughs) But not for me. I was in a cubicle sitting there, and I'm thinking, I'm like, "I can't, I can't do this." And so the subway doors open literally. Maybe I'm on that job several weeks, two months. Subway doors open, cop's hanging out, his beer belly, 'cause back then they had beer bellies. I see the guy, I'm like, "Psh, I can do that." Literally, and so I go home that night, 212-RECRUIT. I call, I'm like, "Hello? You guys hiring?" No clue what I was doing, zero, and I just went with it. I, I... So I... One thing, I've never been afraid to just go and figure it out. That's how my journey started, and from there, I was like, "Oh, may- maybe I could do FBI, DEA, CA- you know, CAA." I actually re- applied to all of them. Secret Service was the one who hired me first.

Mel Robbins 5:57 What I find fascinating about that story is that everybody who doesn't feel like they're in the right place in their life thinks that you're supposed to know what you want, and oftentimes, I find it's all... It's just knowing what you don't want, and you knew, "I don't wanna be in that cubicle."And I love the metaphor of the doors opening, because I think your life can change (snaps fingers) like that.

Evy Poumpouras 6:20 Oh, my God, I didn't even think of that, with the doors opening.

Mel Robbins 6:24 Yeah. And you walked through it. And I would imagine that what you would see over and over and over again, both in your training for the Secret Service and as you were an agent working on some of these elite units in the Secret Service, that things do (snaps fingers) change in an instant, which is why it is so important to take everything that you're about to teach us today to heart.

Mel Robbins 6:50 What are some of the big takeaways that you have that are important when it comes to the way that a US president or somebody at that level of success and power thinks and acts?

Evy Poumpouras 7:04 So I was very lucky because y- ... So I was around th- three current sitting presidents, 'cause I started when Clinton was actually still president. But then you're also around the former presidents, so you get, like, kind of dished out to help with those. And then also foreign heads of state, so when foreign heads of state come to the US, you're around them. So if you think about it, you're going to school, in a sense. Like you don't realize it, but you're actually learning, 'cause you ... Learning theory, right? Uh, you- you become what you're around. And so as I was around them, like, you would watch h- the way they would move, the way they would deal with problems, the way they would deal with people. I think probably the most remarkable thing I would see is ... I mean, you'd be with the president, whichever one it would be, and we'd be literally in the White House, and they'd have screens in different areas and you'd be standing there, and he'd be right there, and there'd be a screen up and ... of the news, and like, they'd be, just be destroying him. "He's an idiot." "He's this." "He's that." Right? Whichever channel it was, depending on whatever president was, 'cause it changed. And he'd be right there. And most human beings, most of us would be like, "Oh, my God. I can't believe they're saying this about me. I can't get out of bed." And that could not fly. So I really learned resilience, and I learned not to take things personally. Absolutely. I think that's probably the best gift. I th- think people today ... And a lot of times when people approach me, they're like, "You know ..." They'll tell me stories, and it's not to invalidate what they say. Like, they really go through it, and I'm like, "You can't ... Y- Everything can't penetrate your soul." Like, it just can't, you know? And I learned to kind of have like a ... to be ... t- to understand what mental armor is and to understand what you can and can't allow in, and then also understand the dynamics of some situations. So resilience is key. I never saw a US president, me personally, like, lose it, break down, get into the fetal position, none of it. Like, they always held their- their grace, and so I learned ... The second thing I learned is to lose well, like have class when you're losing. Have class. And then I also learned less is more, like listen, pay attention. The other thing I also learned is l- ask, and maybe I learned this from the Secret Service too, but ask for help. Like, the president is not expected to know everything, and I think we think, "I have to know everything, because if I don't know everything, then I'm not smart. I lack confidence. I'm ... you know? People see through me," yada yada. And what I learned is they're very good at delegating. "I don't know everything, but you are the secretary of defense, so you tell me how many men I need and what, you know, weapons we should be sending. You're the secretary of treasury. Then you advise me on the currency inflation and all that." So I also learned that. I learned that I didn't have to know everything, so ... but I learned that you have to be a good manager and delegate and ask for help. Like, there ... it's not a weakness.

Mel Robbins 9:59 I personally just imagine what life as a Secret Service agent must be like, and I'm sure as you're listening to Evy, you're also, like, kinda conjuring up these images. It sounds extraordinarily stressful.

Mel Robbins 10:15 How do you manage your stress? Because I would imagine that you're kind of in a constant state of stress when you're in this kinda high-pressure job.

Evy Poumpouras 10:23 Is it ... Are there scary situations? Sure, but you prepare so much to put yourself in these situations, but you also make peace, like there's an understanding that, "Uh, something could go wrong today. Something could happen." Um, any time you got into the follow-up, which is the vehicle that was behind the president's limo, and you would armor up, and you would have your- your weapons, I think tha- those were very vulnerable situations where somebody could attack the motorcade. So the motorcade, whenever it was in movement, that was, like, where it's the most vulnerable. So any times you ... any time you're moving, you're the most vulnerable. So I think those points were kinda like you have those moments where you're like, "All right. Everything's okay." And I mean ... And whenever something was wheels up, meaning your protectee was up in the air, you- you were kind of like, "Okay, h- he- he- he- he didn't die on my watch," 'cause there was always that psychological thing that you ... "I don't wanna mess up. I don't wanna make the wrong mistake. I don't wanna make the wrong call and then have somebody else's life on my shoulders."

Mel Robbins 11:27 Did you have any techniques that you used? You're sitting in the follow car. You're armored up. You got your weapons in your hands. You're like, "M- this is my watch. Don't let anything happen. Don't let anything happen. Don't let any ..." 'Cause I would imagine you would just be on high alert the entire time, ready to go. How the hell did you keep yourself calm and centered when you're in that situation?

Evy Poumpouras 11:50 'Cause I'm in a truck with dudes who make terrible jokes. Like they-

Mel Robbins 11:53 (laughs)

Evy Poumpouras 11:53 ... would just make the dumbest stupid jokes, like, "Hey, Papadopoulos." Like, "You couldn't even say my last name," and I'm like, "It's Pomperous." "Yeah, whatever." We would laugh. You had to laugh. Everything can't be so heavy. If it's heavy, like, you're just not gonna make it. So that mean they would make terrible jokes. I'm not fucking funny at all, Mel, so I would sit and I would listen to them, and if I tried to say something, "Shut up, Papadopoulos. Make sure, like, we don't get shot at," or whatever. Uh, so I was around people who carried themselves well.And so I carried myself well. I, I learned from that. They're steady, I'm steady. It's humor and lightness to create the calm and ground, but at the same time, I'm looking, I'm looking, I'm looking, I'm looking. And then there were times where you couldn't joke around, where you were in a movement or something and you really just had to be present. And I think maybe that job and certain intense activities we do, when you're fully present, you don't have time n- for your mind to wander. Sometimes afterward you're like, "Oh, man. That was heavy." But in that moment, like you find your ways. But also, Mel, they put you in really bad situations in training. Like they don't just like put you out in the world, "Hey, let's see how she's gonna do." They really try to stress you out in training repeatedly to see how you're going to react. And even then, even then, you don't know how somebody's gonna perform in a real life situation. There's times like the person you would expect to just fly through something completely falls apart, and then someone else who you think like, "Ah, she's gonna be a mess," like holds her ground. So you don't know what people are made of until they're truly tested.

Mel Robbins 13:32 Were you ever in a moment where you were truly tested?

Evy Poumpouras 13:35 I remember once we were arresting this guy. It was one of my first ones. I think it was the first time I ever pulled out my weapon. That was stressful. He w- we were fighting with him. We were trying to arrest him. My partner's trying to put cuffs on him. He's fighting with us. We're wrestling. And then I remember pulling my weapon out and actually pointing it at him, and it was close to his head. And I'm thinking, I'm like, "Am I gonna shoot this guy?" That, that's, that's not a gr- I think that's probably like the worst feeling because although you're, you're trained to do something like that, you're still looking at another person and saying like, "Once I do this, am I, am I gonna be okay?" So things, I think, things like that were really hard.

Mel Robbins 14:13 Did you shoot him?

Evy Poumpouras 14:14 No. No. I, you know what? I never had to shoot anybody. I was very lucky. In fact, I remember going to the police academy when I was in the NYPD. Sergeant Corrigan, he taught us police signs. He got up there and he said, "If you never have to discharge your weapon, by my count you had the, a great career," because it's not about force. Any time you force somebody to do something, i- i- you can win in the short term, but in the long term, you always lose.

Mel Robbins 14:44 I think that's true-

Evy Poumpouras 14:46 Everywhere.

Mel Robbins 14:46 ... in life and everywhere.

Evy Poumpouras 14:48 Everywhere.

Mel Robbins 14:49 I would love to learn more about how you were trained to be a human lie detector. You served on this elite polygraph unit for the Secret Service, and you went through training to truly understand whether or not somebody is lying, to pick up on body language, behavioral clues.

Mel Robbins 15:11 Can you tell us a little bit about the training and how... and what you learned in terms of detecting whether or not people are lying?

Evy Poumpouras 15:18 Yes. Well, I didn't want to do it 'cause in, in the Service, there was only like 30, they call them examiners. And it was a massive load because they went to you when they had really hard cases, so the responsibility was heavy. And so not only are you doing a polygraph and interviewing, then they're all watching through the glass.

Mel Robbins 15:35 (laughs)

Evy Poumpouras 15:35 You're thinking, "Man, I, what if I don't get anything? What if I don't deliver?" So I was like, "Nope, nope, nope. Don't want it." And I, I truly, I thought, you know, nobody would talk to me. I, I thought I would not be good at it. Um, and I remember like there's a b- I think, i- I think there was called a bid where it's like, "Position's open. Put in your name," and it was open for two weeks. And I waited 'til like 15 or 30 minutes before it closed on a Friday, like 5:00, 4:45 PM before I put my name in. And I for sure, I was like, "I am never getting this." And when I got it, I remember having like a, "Ex-squeeze me?"

Mel Robbins 16:11 (laughs)

Evy Poumpouras 16:11 Like, "Uh, me?" 'Cause there were military... guys with military experience, w- well, more senior people who put in and they didn't get it. And so I was really surprised when I got it 'cause it's just a load. But when they... So when you go through that, the selection process, then they send you to, it's called the Department of, uh, Defense Polygraph In- Institute. It's a military facility actually. It's at Fort Jackson. I know they changed the name now. They call it NACA. But you're there and you go through schooling, biology, psychology, like, like graduate level courses. And you'll do biology in a week and a half, and you have to take a midterm and final. It was, it was intense. I remember first, wh- when I first went, I thought, you know, they're like, "Here, read this textbook in biology, and then next week you have a test on it." I was like, "Psh, these dudes are lying. It's gonna be open book for sure. There's no way they expect me to memorize this textbook." And then sure as shit I go in the next week and I'm like, "This is not open book?" And they're like, "No, what did you think you were doing here?" (laughs) So that part was hard. We did even... We had pharmacists coming in to teach us, which I thought was really cool because when people, uh, especially when people are under the influence of drugs, which a lot of the people I would have to interview would be, um, they were not always of, you know, sound, you know, mind and body because of the element of like crime and, and whatnot. So I had to learn what drugs did what things to people. And so I became like this like expert in pharm- f- you know, pharmaceutical drugs. So that was pretty amazing. And then they t- teach you the body. They teach you language. They teach you verbal language. They teach you also how to, I don't wanna say confront, but how to deal with lies, um, how to confront someone, how to deal with people who disrespect you in the room. I also learned, too, because sometimes you deal with people who are going through... who have been through trauma, and sometimes you would have to... we would... they would call it like you would have to open up that scar, get what you need, but then it was also your responsibility to close that scar before you... they had left the room. So there's just so many elements with that. And then the Service also wanted me... They, they encouraged me to get my master's in, in psychology, forensic psychology as well. So I think all those things together...... help me understand people and human, human behavior.

Mel Robbins 18:35 So before we get into the strategies and tactics, can you explain why does body language matter when it comes to whether or not somebody is lying to you?

Evy Poumpouras 18:44 Look, it does and it doesn't.

Mel Robbins 18:46 Oh.

Evy Poumpouras 18:46 It d- The research goes back and forth.

Mel Robbins 18:48 Okay.

Evy Poumpouras 18:48 A lot of researchers will be like, "Body language is BS when it comes to detecting deception." It's true and it's not true. Here's what I know. People give off cues.

Mel Robbins 18:57 Okay.

Evy Poumpouras 18:58 Right? So I'm hanging out with you. Like, we met before. I'm paying attention to Mel, how she walks, how she hugs me like you hugged me. Um, you're, you're, you're ba- so I get, like, a baseline on you. Right? I start to, uh, in the few minutes I get to know Mel, I get her, I get her baseline.

Mel Robbins 19:14 And what are you looking

Mel Robbins 19:15 for when you're assessing a baseline? 'Cause anybody could use this. You could use this on a first date, you could use this in-

Evy Poumpouras 19:21 You should use this-

Mel Robbins 19:21 ... a business meeting.

Evy Poumpouras 19:22 ... everywhere.

Mel Robbins 19:23 Okay, great. So let's start with a scenario where you're walking in and you're about to meet somebody and I wanna just get a baseline. What are the data points I'm kinda looking for if I wanna size somebody up?

Evy Poumpouras 19:35 Okay. So I'm not sizing you up.

Mel Robbins 19:38 (laughs)

Evy Poumpouras 19:38 So, but I'm gonna use Mel 'cause Me- Mel, Mel, we're using Mel. So when I walk in, Mel, immediately you come over.

Mel Robbins 19:44 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 19:44 You're open.

Mel Robbins 19:45 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 19:45 Right? So you had, you're open. You weren't holding anything in your arms, you didn't have your arms crossed. Like, you were very open and welcoming, so immediately you see me. You didn't even, you know what else you didn't do? You didn't try to be busy in a corner somewhere and let your, your peers come over to greet me first, like, Emily met me at the elevators, but that was it. As soon as I walked in actually, you came right away. "Evi." So i- it's not like your team started handling me, so to me right away, I'm like, "She's very comfortable, she's very confident, she's very warm and welcoming." Immediately, I'm like, "I like her." So.

Mel Robbins 20:15 Aw.

Evy Poumpouras 20:16 (laughs) But you feel people, do you not? Do you not f- feel people's vibration too, like the essence of what they give off?

Mel Robbins 20:22 I think that's 100% right. And w- what's interesting about you reflecting back on just the, that literally 10 seconds, was that today I'm exhausted. We've been hosting my parents, we've got all kinds of stuff going on, I'm more tired than normal, I was up late talking to my daughter in Los Angeles who's going through, like, a really rough thing right now. And so I am happy to hear that I just instinctually walked over to you and that the experience for you was that I was open, I was warm, because I know that's who I am, but I didn't think about how I would greet you. And so it's interesting to hear how many data points you had in that short interaction, and also it is true. I think we walk in and you feel the energy of someone, and if it's warm and inviting, you're immediately at ease, but if somebody is a little stiff or crossed arms or formal or tense, then you start to go, "Oh my god, something's wrong with..." Y- you know, like, I think we reflect it back-

Evy Poumpouras 21:30 Right.

Mel Robbins 21:30 ... on ourselves versus-

Evy Poumpouras 21:31 What's going, what's wrong with me?

Mel Robbins 21:32 Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 21:33 Right, and that-

Mel Robbins 21:33 So what should we do instead?

Evy Poumpouras 21:35 I think quiet and just abs- so, here, you can absorb people. Now, I'm not talking about empathy where you take everybody's stuff on and then you feel like garbage later. That's not what I'm talking about. But when I say absorb, I mean feel people's energy. People give stuff off. It's a real thing, it's a legit thing. Feel it, number one. Number two is body language. So your body language, you're open, your arms were open, they were out, they weren't in your pockets. You, you were ... Your body language communicated what your words communicated. They were in harmony. So what you said to me, "Evi, I'm so happy you're here. Thank you so much. I'm so excited," that mirrored what your body did.

Mel Robbins 22:15 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 22:16 So there was, so right in that moment, I'm like, "It's all genuine." It's not a formality, I'm not another guest, like, "Hey, okay." You know? All right, get her in there, and you immediately stepped forward, where maybe your, your p- your, your team could have taken me, brought me in here, and you could have made your entrance. "Evi, hi." (laughs) "I'm Mel, how are you?" Some people do that.

Mel Robbins 22:35 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 22:35 You did none of that.

Mel Robbins 22:38 So when somebody gives you either weird energy or they are kind of open but body language is off and you're reading something's off, pay attention to it?

Evy Poumpouras 22:48 First, don't make it about you.

Mel Robbins 22:50 Okay.

Evy Poumpouras 22:51 Because that's when we're like, "They don't like me, they don't this, they don't that," and that's where you start going down that rabbit hole.

Mel Robbins 22:56 Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 22:56 And then that's like i- i- it's good to be s- maybe self-reflective, but not so self-focused, because then we start to make everything about us, and sometimes, most of the time, nothing to do with us. So allow people to be and look at them, listen to them. "How are you today?" Um, you can ask, like, simple questions. "Tell me about your morning. How's everything going, Mel?" And then people can reveal slowly, "You know what? I really had a tough morning," or, "Oh, this is going on. I was up late." And then now you know what's going on with that person. So we wanna, we wanna see w- if people are off harmony, meaning what you're saying and what you're showing me with your body, and then also what I feel from you-

Mel Robbins 23:37 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 23:37 ... is not in harmony, I just have to pay attention. And we don't call people out, ever.

Mel Robbins 23:42 Like, the, uh, like, I mean, as in that's a rule, don't call somebody out?

Evy Poumpouras 23:45 Like, "Hey, you see..." You know, I, I just wanna be careful, because sometimes we think, like, I know all this body language stuff, right?

Mel Robbins 23:51 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 23:51 And I'm gonna call everybody out and be like, "Oh, you just did this," or, "You said this, but, and I know when you say this or when you look away, you just looked away, and that must mean..." It's like, those cues are there for you to gather information, not for you to kind of reflect back to someone and be like, "Let me show you how much I'm paying attention to you and how smart I am." So despite me having this background, I never tell people what I see. I told you 'cause you asked me.

Mel Robbins 24:18 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 24:19 But I don't tell people. You wanna make people feel uncomfortable? Tell them. You wanna make people feel like you're analyzing them? Tell them. You wanna make people feel that you're, you think you're better than them? Tell them. We don't need to do that. It's for you to understand the people around you...... and who you're dealing with so you can make smarter decisions with people. That's what this is for. Does that make sense?

Mel Robbins 24:43 It makes a lot of sense, and what I'm gathering so far is that there is all this power in settling yourself and observing and in letting people show you and not reacting. And, you know, you said something really important. You're, you're meeting somebody for the first time. You're in a situation where you're on a date or you're meeting, uh, your significant other's parents for the first time, or you're going on an interview or whatever. You're pitching a client, interviewing a babysitter. The baseline and just giving yourself permission to observe, to get data, and not read anything weird, as if it has to do with you, is a power move. And I think a big mistake a lot of us make is that when somebody else is off, we let it make us get off. And what you're saying is absolutely not. Just observe, keep being in the mode, pretend you're... Like, it's almost like... 'Cause I think about a Secret Service agent, and I think about dark suit, sunglasses, in the corner, seen, maybe, definitely not heard. And so there's a cool confidence that comes from doing this in your life. Are there any cues though that, for you, over the years, became kind of a telltale, like, you know, the, something with people's eyes? I had always heard, for example, that if people

Mel Robbins 26:00 look away, they're lying to you, which, of course, made me go, "Wait a minute. I have ADHD." A lot of times I will look away, gather my thoughts, come back. I also think it can be really disarming for people if you're staring right at them like a prosecutor or an attorney on, you know, that's cross-examining somebody. But are there telltale signs with the eyes?

Evy Poumpouras 26:19 So this is, like, such BS, the whole eye thing.

Mel Robbins 26:21 (laughs)

Evy Poumpouras 26:22 It's like, I know, like it's, it's a marketing thing. Uh, think of it this way. Like how can everybody do the same exact thing with their eyes? Like if, if we're preaching diversity and we're all so different and we're all so unique, then how on earth, like if, is everybody going to beh- behave the same way? So here's the thing with eye contact. How a person does eye contact depends on that person. I could have grown up shy. I have, could have grown up being told I was stupid. I could have been, you know, have grown up being hit a lot. And so how I'm going to look at someone is going to, to be kind of a marker of everything I've experienced in my life. That's why that doesn't make sense. I could have, uh, like ADHD or autism. I could have... There could be so many reasons. So the thing with eye contact is there's two parts. One part is when you're looking at people, let people be. Like, you know, sometimes you ever have a serious conversation, maybe with your kids, and you're trying to talk to them and they're doing the-

Mel Robbins 27:22 (laughs)

Evy Poumpouras 27:22 ... they're doing this on you.

Mel Robbins 27:24 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 27:24 And you're like, "Look at me when I talk to you," you want to try to refrain from doing that because that's just them releasing stress, releasing energy. You're also getting a really good baseline on what they do when they're stressed out.

Mel Robbins 27:37 Oh.

Evy Poumpouras 27:38 Yes. Now, when you want to teach them, "Hey, when you talk to people, I want you to have good eye contact 'cause it conveys trust, it conveys authority," that's different. So we're talking two different lanes. One lane is reading people. Just let people be. Don't correct them. Let them go where they're gonna go. They'll show you. So before you asked me a question before we started. What did you ask me, Mel? You asked me, what am I excited about, right?

Mel Robbins 28:00 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 28:01 And I had nothing, and I, but I broke eye contact with you and I looked down because you know what I was doing? I was searching my mental Rolodex and I'm like, "Do I?" But I had to break eye contact to do that so I could really go into my head. I'm not about to lie to you. That's just what I do.

Mel Robbins 28:17 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 28:18 So that's reading people.

Mel Robbins 28:19 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 28:20 Now, eye contact when it comes to you, right? Right now, I'm your guest. So even though I would presume that maybe eye contact's hard for you, but you're like, "Evy's my guest. I want her to know I'm here and I'm present, so I'm gonna do everything I can to keep eye contact 'cause it shows I value her. It shows I'm here, that I'm present." That's separate. And so eye contact, for you as an individual, like if you're going out there for an interview or a meeting and you're really trying to build trust, eye contact hands-down builds trust. It's just we're wired that way. If you're looking at me, it means that I can trust you. Right? So those are two things. Reading people, we leave them alone, but we pay attention to what they do. So now you know every time I ask Evy a question where she has to think about something, it's likely she's gonna do what? Break eye contact 'cause she's searching her mental Rolodex. That's just what she does.

Mel Robbins 29:11 Yep.

Evy Poumpouras 29:11 But when it comes to how I show up, I'm gonna be here. I'm gonna be present. I'm gonna look at you. I'm gonna show you, "Mel, you matter to me. Mel, you can trust me because I'm gonna look at you." And it's also a great way to show respect to people.

Mel Robbins 29:28 On the topic of reading someone, what are the list of things that you're assessing?

Evy Poumpouras 29:34 It's such a hard thing to answer. So look, there's body language-

Mel Robbins 29:38 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 29:38 ... overall. Just look at what they're doing with their body. Um, simple things. Even, even how, when they're talking to you, are they frontally aligned? So we're, we're frontally aligned right now, which is-

Mel Robbins 29:51 Meaning are, we're like squared off against each other.

Evy Poumpouras 29:53 Yes, yes.

Mel Robbins 29:53 Okay.

Evy Poumpouras 29:54 Frontally aligned, shoulder to shoulder. That's a good way, when you talk to someone, to have that. You don't want to talk to people

Evy Poumpouras 30:00 like this, or like this, or like that. We're on our phone.

Mel Robbins 30:04 Which basically signals I'm either not interested or I'm nervous or I'm thinking about something else, right?

Evy Poumpouras 30:09 It's just, when it matters to you, when those conversations matter, you really wanna be deliberate with your body language. You wanna show with your body to people what you're saying, that those things need to be in harmony. And for me, I really don't care what people say. I look at what they do. And so that's the other follow-up. That's actions. That's separate. But with the body, you wanna have... If it's y- if it's you're reading people, you just wanna look at what they do with their body. You get their baseline. You can get somebody's baseline in just a couple of minutes....right? You can see. Do they like to have their arms crossed? If I could stand all day long with my arms crossed, I would. That's like my, I'm comfortable. But I don't do it because psychologically, understand, it gives off the wrong energy or vibe.

Mel Robbins 30:53 Yeah. And as you're talking, I just want, uh, what's interesting is that you have this ability to both go, "Okay, as I'm observing someone else, these are the things I look for to get a baseline and assess what kind of person this is, what is the energy, what is their emotion. Is this somebody whose energy is trustworthy? Is it not? Are they sketchy? Like, what's going on with that person?" And the same exact things that would signal, "I don't know if I can trust this person," are-

Evy Poumpouras 31:26 They're doing the same thing to you.

Mel Robbins 31:27 Yes. And also, are the same things that you should not be doing if you wanna display confidence.

Evy Poumpouras 31:32 Yes.

Mel Robbins 31:32 So it's g- like, almost sort of common sense. Like, if somebody's not looking you in the eye or their body is pointed toward the door as you're trying to have a, a serious conversation...

Evy Poumpouras 31:41 That's called a fleeing position, by the way.

Mel Robbins 31:42 That's called a who?

Evy Poumpouras 31:43 Fleeing position.

Mel Robbins 31:44 A fleeing position.

Evy Poumpouras 31:44 So when you're speaking to someone-

Mel Robbins 31:46 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 31:46 ...and they're leaning... So right now, the door is here to my, to my left.

Mel Robbins 31:49 Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 31:49 So if I (laughs) ... We were doing the interview, Mel, and I'm like this the whole time, and Amah's just like sitting at the edge like this.

Mel Robbins 31:54 (laughs)

Evy Poumpouras 31:54 "Mel, you know," I'm like, "Evi doesn't wanna be here." That's called, it's called a fleeing position. When I would interview suspects, m- a lot of them would sit in the fleeing position 'cause they just wanted to leave. Like, their body literally was showing me, "I don't want to be here." That's fleeing position.

Mel Robbins 32:09 Well, if you've ever talked to a kid and they're in trouble and you're sitting at the island in the kitchen...

Evy Poumpouras 32:14 Fleeing position.

Mel Robbins 32:15 Fleeing position, absolutely.

Evy Poumpouras 32:17 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 32:17 So it's kind of common sense almost, that the things that you do when you're not interested or when you're lying or when you're, like, done with a conversation, somebody that's not that interested in you or might be covering something up is probably doing to you.

Evy Poumpouras 32:31 They are doing. And I think what you said is important because everyone's so fixated on them that we, when, "How are people treating me and what are they doing to me?" And, and they don't, we don't pause to think like, "Yeah, hello, you're the other half of the equation. Did you pause to think how you're presenting yourself?" Because it's, it's a reaction. And you have to think thoughtfully, "What am I doing and what are they seeing, how am I showing up for this person?" But we, we sometimes become a bit more very egocentric. We, we, we think like we're the sun and then everybody revolves around us. And pause and think, like, how are you showing up? How are you speaking? Are you present? Are you looking at them? Are you doing these things? And even if you are and they're not reciprocating what you think

Evy Poumpouras 33:20 they should do, like, leave people alone. Let people be.

Mel Robbins 33:25 Why?

Evy Poumpouras 33:26 Because, because if I wanna have an authentic conversation w- with you, Mel, I'm gonna let you do Mel, so that I can really see who you really are.

Mel Robbins 33:38 So there's a theory almost that if you center yourself and you're in a place with people where you show up aligned with your best intentions, and you're observing, and you're creating the space for someone else to be and operate how they're gonna be and operate in that moment, people's behavior reveals the truth.

Evy Poumpouras 34:02 You don't have to work so hard when you just let people show you. I remember once when I first got into this business. I left the US Secret Service and I went to meet with somebody from a management company. I was gonna get a... I was looking at managers. And I took my husband, who is another, you know, interrogator and h- government, you know, person like myself. And we go, I'm like, "Come with me." And we're in LA, we sit down, and within like three seconds, we, he, he and I, we instinctually knew, like, "This dude, this, could care less that we're in this room." He has no... He's in this room 'cause somebody asked him to meet with us and he did it as a favor. So we ended that interview really quickly 'cause I knew right away, I'm like, "This guy could care... He's not even remotely interested in representing me." So at that moment, I didn't make it about me. My feelings didn't get hurt. He called it in, it was a favor called in by somebody who knew me. I thought he wanted to meet me. He clearly showed me he didn't. I end a c- you know, conversation sooner rather than later, and I leave. And I don't waste my time trying to make the relationship work, trying to follow up with an email. He showed me, he also showed me he's not gonna work hard for me.

Mel Robbins 35:09 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 35:11 He showed me that. I'm like, "If you're this excited about me now, forget about it later." Let's say even he's like, "Fine, I'll, I'll do your..." It was my entertainment attorney at the time. "I will do your entertainment attorney a favor and I'll take you on as a client." No. I don't want you 'cause you just showed me what it's going to be like working with you.

Mel Robbins 35:29 This is brilliant because we are all in the mode of chasing. That "I gotta prove to you that I'm worthy of your time." No. A confidence and being able to get a baseline is observing whether or not somebody else is worth your time, whether or not they're displaying interest. I wanna go to the situation where you may be administering a polygraph. Your job is to make sure... Well, I don't need... Your job is to kinda get the truth. As somebody's sitting there and you're going through a polygraph exam, you've got colleagues that are watching you, you have this steely confidence where you're administering the test, are there specific things

Mel Robbins 36:14 that people do with their eyes, though, that do indicate that their words might not match the truth?

Evy Poumpouras 36:23 So, we'll-

Mel Robbins 36:24 Like signaling that happens?

Evy Poumpouras 36:25 We'll do an example.

Mel Robbins 36:26 Okay.

Evy Poumpouras 36:27 So I'm sitting here. I'm interviewing you, Mel, right?

Mel Robbins 36:29 Okay.

Evy Poumpouras 36:29 So I'm like, "Hi, Mel. You know, I'm Evi. Good to meet you." So, one of the things I might do is like, "Mel, w- where are you from? Where were you born? What's your date of birth? Okay."

Mel Robbins 36:39 Yup.

Evy Poumpouras 36:39 "What's your address?"

Mel Robbins 36:40 Yup.

Evy Poumpouras 36:40 So you answer these questions.

Mel Robbins 36:41 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 36:42 So...As you're answering these, you're looking at me. You're nodding your head, up and down.

Mel Robbins 36:47 Uh-huh.

Evy Poumpouras 36:47 Okay. I got Mel's baseline.

Mel Robbins 36:49 Oh.

Evy Poumpouras 36:49 So Mel, tell me, tell me about what happened on the night of March 15th, 1998. Now, I watch what Mel does. Now, you're likely gonna shift a little bit, because I just asked you to do what now?

Mel Robbins 37:05 Recall something.

Evy Poumpouras 37:06 From the past.

Mel Robbins 37:07 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 37:07 So in that moment, I'm gonna watch, what does Mel do when she's accessing her memory? That's one.

Mel Robbins 37:14 Okay.

Evy Poumpouras 37:14 So I'm collecting in- information. So I've got who Mel is, the beginning part when she's not threatened, name, date of birth, blah, blah, blah. Right? Unless you're lying, of course, which happens. Then it's like I'm getting you to access a memory, and I might ask you, "How do you feel about being here today? Are you doing all right? Is there something I can get you?" So then I'm gonna get a baseline on how Mel reacts or what you show me when you're emotional.

Mel Robbins 37:38 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 37:38 You might start crying, you might be angry, you might ... Frustration. "Mel, tell me what you know about this case." T- "Mel, tell me what you think happened."

Mel Robbins 37:47 I'll tell you what. Sitting here right now, I feel like I'm in an investigation and I'm about to get my ass thrown in jail.

Evy Poumpouras 37:52 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 37:52 I'm like, like, you have a ste- have you always been this scary-

Evy Poumpouras 37:55 No.

Mel Robbins 37:55 ... and this confidence?

Evy Poumpouras 37:56 No.

Mel Robbins 37:56 I mean, you like, uh, have, like, death stare with your e- 'cause you were just like, "I got my paper." Like, I, I ... It- it is amazing-

Evy Poumpouras 38:06 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 38:06 ... to be in the presence of somebody who is emotionally settled. Because it makes me nervous about the fact that I might not be.

Evy Poumpouras 38:19 That's good.

Mel Robbins 38:20 What do you mean, that's good?

Evy Poumpouras 38:21 That's good, though, to some degree, right? You wanna be steady enough to ... Here's the thing, we wanna be warm towards people, right? You want warmth. But you also want people to like ... You wanna keep people on point from time to time. 'Cause when we don't, that's when we get taken advantage of, we get betrayed, we get rolled. Like, it's- it's- it's like a, it's a dance. So yeah, do I want people from time to time to be like, "Ooh, I don't, I don't wanna cross Evi. I don't wanna mess with Evi. I don't wanna harm Evi because ..." I- I- You wanna give that off, because that's also a way to let people know, like, "I'm not that person." That's a good thing. So it's finding a way to be both.

Mel Robbins 39:04 How do you do that if you're somebody who has spent a lifetime feeling insecure? Because I agree, you don't want people to take advantage of you. You don't want to get played. You don't wanna get scammed. And it happens in small and big ways to people every single day. So how do you, if you've always been insecure or you've been taken advantage of, how do you start to build this?

Evy Poumpouras 39:31 I think first, there's no way to not ever be insecure. And maybe get rid of that word.

Mel Robbins 39:36 Okay.

Evy Poumpouras 39:37 Maybe think of like, people ... You're not gonna, you're not gonna get it every time. Even myself, there's days where I'm like, "Meh, I shoulda seen it," or, "Hmm, I gave that person a chance." But then I- I- I rectify my behavior. I think where people get kind of screwed a bit is when they don't. You see it, you don't course correct. That's something else. So you have to be okay with messing up. You have to be okay when people pull the wool over your eyes. You have to be okay with that. You have to be like, "Uh, he, he won, I lost. It happened. Lesson learned." I think that's also con- like, strength.

Mel Robbins 40:13 It's not just lesson learned. What you're saying is lesson applied.

Evy Poumpouras 40:16 Yes, but I also have to, like, not be so hard on myself.

Mel Robbins 40:20 Why is not being hard on yourself a good thing when it comes to making sure that you become stronger and braver in the future?

Evy Poumpouras 40:29 Because I'm beating myself up and I'm giving myself more anxiety, I'm making myself more insecure, and then I'm also telling myself, "You dummy." That's what I'm saying to me. "You're a dummy. You should've known better. That's not good." And the whole, like, "I should've this, I should've that." And- and my husband's very good with that. He's like, he's like, he's got this rule, like, nobody ever says, "I should have." He's like, "In that moment, you make the best decision you can with the information you have." And I think that's having faith and trust in yourself.

Mel Robbins 40:59 So instead of beating yourself up, you just remind yourself, "I made the best decision I could-

Evy Poumpouras 41:03 Yes.

Mel Robbins 41:03 ... with the information and the situation that I had."

Evy Poumpouras 41:07 Well, yes, and if you mess up, which we all do, being like, "I messed up. I will do better," but then do better. But this, I don't think it's, it's good. Like, it also reminds me in training. When you- when you messed up in training, like, like sometimes they'd give us ... Like, we do these shooting scenarios, which were really stressful. We would, they would create these, um, s- like, Secret Service compound had like, you know, we had cities that we called, like, Tiny Town, where we'd do attacks, simulated attacks, or out in the open where we'd do these attacks. And they were very stressful and they were designed to be very realistic. Everyone's there, everybody's watching everybody's moves, and when you get attacked, depending on the position, you had to memorize who goes where under what circumstances, depending where the line of fire is coming from and what weapons to use and where the counterassault team is coming from and where the, the shift is ... Like, there's so many elements. So you're being attacked, and then at the same time, you have to know, like, your choreography. And you would mess up. So in training, they call you out, be like, "Hey, you were supposed to do this. You did this. It's wrong. This guy's dead now because of you. Don't do it again." And they move on. Nobody has time to sit to feel bad. Move on. So I'm not s- it's like learn, feel it, and maybe you go, I go back home at night and I'm like, "Man, I'm, I messed up on that. That guy coulda died if this was a real-life scenario."

Mel Robbins 42:31 If you continue to dwell and beat yourself up, you actually won't move on and do better.

Evy Poumpouras 42:37 No.

Mel Robbins 42:38 You're gonna make it worse the next time.

Evy Poumpouras 42:40 You make yourself insecure. How messed up is that, like, to live in that place?

Mel Robbins 42:44 We sit here and beat ourselves up over, like, forgetting to get the milk or the butter on the list at the grocery store, and you're sitting here-... going, "Oh, I screwed up. The guy could have died. Okay, let's move on." And so if y- but the point is bigger. One of the things that you

Mel Robbins 43:00 have been trained in when it comes to lie detection as you're interrogating somebody, are there verbal cues that people give you that signal they don't know what the hell they're talking about or they're covering something up for me?

Evy Poumpouras 43:15 There are verbal indicators. There were some things people would do, and this sounds terrible but it's, it's true, and there's no research to prove this. We just... It's just something we'd see. Like anytime somebody showed up with like a Bible in their hand for an interview (laughs) or like-

Mel Robbins 43:28 (laughs) For an interview?

Evy Poumpouras 43:29 Oh, yeah. Or the rosemary beads or I'd see them praying before an interview.

Mel Robbins 43:32 So if you bring a prop, this might be-

Evy Poumpouras 43:34 Well-

Mel Robbins 43:35 ... like a, "Here we go."

Evy Poumpouras 43:36 No, this was-

Mel Robbins 43:36 If you're eye-rolling.

Evy Poumpouras 43:36 ... the divine prop.

Mel Robbins 43:38 Okay.

Evy Poumpouras 43:38 We would, we would call this... So anytime somebody we'd see, we'd see someone do that, right away it was like, "That guy's gonna fail for sure." Or if like in the interview you'd hear like, "I swear to God, as God as my witness, my grandmother's grave," language like that, I always was like, "All right. This, this, this person did it." Like those were little clues. Now, there's no science behind it, research, but like these were like things that we knew over time. So you would just hear things like that because it's kinda like the truth is typically simple. You don't need to swear to God or bring your Bible in to tell me the truth. Like you don't need to sell it to me. If you didn't do it, you didn't do it. I understand you're gonna be nervous. But if I say to you, "Mel, did you have donuts this morning for breakfast?" And you're like, "Evi, I swear to God. I swear to God (laughs) I didn't do it."

Mel Robbins 44:22 (laughs)

Evy Poumpouras 44:22 "I swear to G- on my mother's grave, I didn't do it," I'm kinda like, "I just asked you if you were having donuts." So those types of reactions with people, you, you pay attention. Or if you ask your kids a question, "Hey..." You know, wha- what's one of your kid's names? Are we allowed to say?

Mel Robbins 44:37 Of course. Oakley.

Evy Poumpouras 44:38 Oakley. "Oakley, did you do your homework?" "Who, me? Homework?" Stalling tactic, right? I'm... You know it intuitively. So that's a stalling tactic. Um, we do that to buy time to think about what I wanna say. So those are good verbal indicators for, you know, why is this person stalling? Um, sometimes when people put, like, um, possessive words, like instead of saying, like, the car versus my car or my car versus th- the car. So if I hear my car, I like my c- if somebody says my car, that means that person likes their car.

Mel Robbins 45:13 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 45:13 If they say the car, like they don't really like the car.

Mel Robbins 45:15 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 45:16 So those are little things that people will, will do. So there are indicators in language to, to listen to. And then also when you ask somebody a direct question, I c- this is the biggest thing, did they actually answer your question?

Mel Robbins 45:32 I think a lot of people don't.

Evy Poumpouras 45:33 No, they move on.

Mel Robbins 45:35 Or they, like, uh, uh, you know, "I didn't say that." Or they, they come at you. I'm trying to think of an example. It drives me freaking crazy-

Evy Poumpouras 45:45 Do I need to start polygraphing people for you, Mel, 'cause I will.

Mel Robbins 45:47 Yes. But it drives me crazy when you're asking somebody something and then they change the subject or they t- they, they, they, like, say, "Well, I never had time." And I'm like, "I didn't ask you about the time. I asked you if you know what you're doing." And so there is like a disconnect between the question I asked and the answer being irrelevant to the topic of the question.

Evy Poumpouras 46:10 But that's... There you go though. You know, but you just got intel. Why aren't they answering you? Something's wrong. They messed up. They didn't do it. They forgot. That's, that's info, all of it.

Mel Robbins 46:20 And see, I think that for me, I feel like the harder thing to try to detect in people is the omission, that the overt lying to me feels like something that would be easier to start to notice when you do what you're teaching us. Don't be so, like, jacked up when you meet somebody. Slow down. Get a baseline. Focus on how you're showing up. Notice, give the spa- the person the space to be. Gather data in terms of what the baseline is. And just use your common sense. Is their energy matching their body language and what they're saying? Are they giving you a vibe that you like? You have so much that you can just absorb based on common sense. And then also don't go back in and make it about you. Always just be on the observing.

Evy Poumpouras 47:11 We self-sabotage ourselves. We're so... I don't wanna say this. Like the self-development space, it's, it's a great thing. I like, I like books like that. I read. I listen. I wanna learn. But if you're so posi- like you're so in the me, me, me headspace, no, no, no, no, because you're not seeing things. So you also have to find a part of you where it's like, "Mel invited me. I drove all the way from New York City. She wants me h- here to be her guest. There's a reason I'm here." I walk in. I bring my best self in. You know, and I walk in. I, I say hello. That's... I, I control the parts of me that I can. And then after that, I also have to surrender a bit and then understand that Mel is the other 50% of the equation, 50/50. But if I'm so self-focused and I make the whole thing about me and I'm not paying attention to you, I'm not reading the room, I'm not looking at your pe- your, your colleagues and even just the tone of the team. How are people feeling? How do they move in the room? Because that's another indication too of, like, the synergy, uh, the environment, because sometimes people can shaft you, right? "Hey, come on in." The charmer, which is something you really should... Those are, like, certain cues, certain behaviors with people. Those are definitely red flag cues. You know, I-

Mel Robbins 48:26 How do you know a charmer?

Evy Poumpouras 48:28 So I interviewed, um, Jim Smith, who was, um, a detective for the Canadian police, and he did serial killers. He did all sorts of confessions. We were talking about one of his cases, Russell Williams, and he got a confession. This guy, serial rapist, murderer, all that, and he was actually a military commander. Anyways, one of the things I asked Jim, I said, "You know, what..."... part of human behavior, like of all the types you, you've met, like what was the thing where you were like, "Ooh, I gotta look out for that person"? He's like, "The charmer. The, the 'Hey, how are you? I'm here.' That person who's very, like, overt and charming and, and trying to very much ingratiate themselves with you, like those people, always like, 'Why are you trying so hard?'"

Mel Robbins 49:17 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 49:17 And tho- those are true. They're actually charmer that g- falls into a little bit of the, and I'm gonna say this from the clin- clinical perspective, a true narcissistic personality disorder or an antisocial personality disorder, which is people who you would call a sociopath or psychopath. They have, some of them have that trait, not all, but you'll see it there.

Mel Robbins 49:37 So how do you get the truth outta anyone?

Evy Poumpouras 49:39 It depends what you're asking. Do you want them to verbally say something to you? Because you cannot tell me something verbally, but you just showed me the truth, and that's all I need. There was somebody I was working very closely with and someone I liked a lot, I considered a friend, but I was also trying to do work stuff with. And she would say a lot, but her actions were very different than what she would say. You know, she had very strong boundaries, but when he came to if I had like, "Hey, I'm not available," it was like, "What do you mean you're not available?" I'm like, "Dude, you turn your phone off like at 5:00 on a Friday." And then, like, I'm, I'm in another country and you're like, you're kind of losing it.

Mel Robbins 50:17 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 50:18 Th- th- are we... So you... So with people, I don't physically have to have somebody tell me the truth. They can show me the truth. So with this scenario, I'm telling you, there were so many indicators with this person, I never actually s- had a conversation where I said, "You need to tell me blah, blah, blah, blah." They gave me so many indicators through their actions and behavior that it was enough for me to collect intel and say, "Nice human being, I like them, but they're not for me." And you know what I did? I just quietly pulled back, because it was too hard a relationship to have. I never had that conversation. The... I think people feel like in this day and age where it's like, "Speak up, tell everybody." Like, why? You can. Just pick and choose when you're gonna do it.

Mel Robbins 51:06 I mean, sometimes it's not worth it. Sometimes it's not worth it at all. Ho- how can you truly tell how somebody feels about a situation or another person?

Evy Poumpouras 51:15 Mostly it's observing. It's also it depends. You look at their performance. So let's say it's an employee, like, just look at their performance. You can try to help people as much as possible. Sometimes, like, you can't... E- they'll show you. They'll show you, like, what they're willing to do and not do.

Mel Robbins 51:34 I think that it's easy to ignore the behavior. It's easy to ignore the kind of output of somebody's behavior and make excuses. And so I keep coming back to this theme with you as I'm having this experience, and you're just being you, so I'm, like, giving you the space to be you. And you have this steely confidence (laughs) and this settled nature where if you are grounded, people reveal themselves. And you can really decode just about anything if you're paying attention.

Evy Poumpouras 52:10 Let me say one thing-

Mel Robbins 52:12 Sure.

Evy Poumpouras 52:12 ... 'cause you brought up the confidence thing a few times. Like, there are times where I'm not sure, but I'm still steady in myself. Sometimes we invest in people and we wanna believe in people and we want to trust in people, and then sometimes what is right there in front of us, we don't-

Mel Robbins 52:29 We don't wanna see it.

Evy Poumpouras 52:30 ... pay attention. No, I don't. I don't wanna see it. I'm gonna keep and keep and keep and keep, and then I get pissed off at you for not being what I want you to be, meeting my expectations. Then I get angrier and more frustrated. And then I'm also mad at myself for being in that situation, and on and on and on that cycle goes.

Mel Robbins 52:47 I'm nodding because I really resonate with that.

Mel Robbins 52:51 How do you break that? So let's say that, 'cause you've, you've even mentioned personally too, that you, you talked about the fact that you were trained in how to deal with lies. So when you realize that what somebody is saying does not match what they're doing, how somebody is treating you does not match what they said. Somebody is, you know, talking all about boundaries, but they're crossing yours consistently. How do you confront that? When do you know to call somebody out versus to back away?

Evy Poumpouras 53:26 So sometimes you do have to call people out. So in those moments where you have to deal with someone, let's say it's your team-

Mel Robbins 53:31 Okay.

Evy Poumpouras 53:31 ... and you have to address certain things, it's okay to address things. A- And I think that that's another important thing. It's first you make the decision, "Do I wanna deal or not deal?"

Mel Robbins 53:40 Okay.

Evy Poumpouras 53:40 "If I don't deal, what are the consequences?" It's always better to deal with things when they're small, especially when they're people or a circle of people that you have to deal with, like a team or family member where you're like, "This person's not gonna go anywhere." So, but when problems are small, deal with them, because what happens is they get bigger, bigger, bigger, and then you get angrier, angrier, angrier, and then it becomes this big problem and you're like, uh, "You've done this, you've done then- you've done that," and then you get frustrated. So, one, when you have small problems, address them 'cause they're small. That person now knows you're paying attention. Also, kindness is clarity. You can be clear in what you expect of others. Sometimes they don't know. We, we presume, "I wouldn't do this, so they should know better."

Mel Robbins 54:28 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 54:28 It's like, look, th- they're in a whole other head space.

Mel Robbins 54:30 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 54:31 So I think addressing things while they're small, not waiting for things to get big when it's important. And there are situations where it's like, "You know what? This person is too much of a mess. It's too much of a shit show, or it's too much stress f- too stressful." Or if it's someone where your phone rings and you're like, your stomach turns, that's when you're like, "All right, something, uh, something's going on here. I need to minimize my exposure to this person." Um, I'm not saying cut people out, although-... I have done that, and I don't think that's a bad thing other. You- you save that for when you need to do it. And then with some others, you just, I call it, like, you just make more space. You make more space. Make more space. You don't answer the phone as often. You let it go to voicemail. You can send a text rather than call back. There are ways to create space with people. When you realize, "This isn't for me," 'cause not everybody is for you, and, but it's your responsibility to recognize it and then to act on it.

Mel Robbins 55:36 I'm, I can feel the person listening completely leaning in and there's probably a very specific person they have in mind.

Evy Poumpouras 55:46 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 55:46 And then there's that heartache that you feel when you go, "Oh my God, I'm probably the name on someone else's phone, that when my name pops up their stomach twists because I'm not showing up how I need to show up."

Evy Poumpouras 56:02 Or, or, that's, or maybe you're showing up in a way that you- they don't want you to show up.

Mel Robbins 56:07 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 56:08 It doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong. What if it's, you're calling Oakley because you're concerned and worried about, you know, what's going on in Oakley's life?

Mel Robbins 56:19 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 56:20 And the phone rings and Oakley's like, "Ugh, it's Mom." And her stomach's turning, right?

Mel Robbins 56:24 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 56:24 In that scenario, I would think maybe sometimes, you're like, "I don't care if your stomach's turning."

Mel Robbins 56:28 Right. Yes. 1,000%.

Evy Poumpouras 56:30 So-

Mel Robbins 56:30 'Cause I know that I'm acting in a way that I'm, that is aligned with my values.

Evy Poumpouras 56:36 Yes.

Mel Robbins 56:36 And the other scenario when you're making somebody else's stomach turn, you're probably not.

Evy Poumpouras 56:41 Yes. So there, right? There's-

Mel Robbins 56:42 Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 56:42 ... there's scenarios for that.

Mel Robbins 56:43 Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 56:44 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 56:44 Can

Mel Robbins 56:45 you talk about paralinguistics? What is that?

Evy Poumpouras 56:48 So paralinguistics is what you sound like when you speak. It's your tone, your pitch, your voice. So often people are so focused on what they're going to say, right? We have our talking points.

Mel Robbins 56:59 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 57:00 And I need to make sure I hit this and I hit that, I need to say this. And it is what we sound like when we deliver information. That is more powerful than the things that actually come out of our mouth. When I left the US Secret Service and I really learned paralinguistics more so when I began doing the news. I left the Secret Service and I started doing the news. And I th-

Mel Robbins 57:23 Meaning you were an expert on the news?

Evy Poumpouras 57:24 Yeah, so I started doing the Today Show-

Mel Robbins 57:26 Okay.

Evy Poumpouras 57:26 ... initially, and then, you know, shootings and crime, and one of the things I learned from the working, you know, going on air is I had to learn to make sure my paralinguistics was strong enough so that when I spoke, it resonated. And I found, yes, it matters what you say, but half the time, it's how you say it. And so I learned talking points. Talk less, give them your greatest hits, and this is whether it's a pitch, you're talking to somebody they don't need it all, give them the strongest hits that you have, but then put more value in how you speak. Um, so it's authority in your voice. We are more likely to listen and believe in someone and see them as a confident person or as a person of authority when they use a stronger tone voice, meaning their stronger, deeper tone.

Mel Robbins 58:15 So if somebody's listening and they would like to convey more confidence, more authority, and they're leaning in as you're talking about paralinguistics, and I hear you loud and clear, what you say, it's not what you say that really matters, it's how you say it.

Evy Poumpouras 58:37 It's the strength that comes out through your voice.

Mel Robbins 58:39 And one thing that's gonna help you do that is to have very few talking points. So boil down the thing that you wanna convey to simple ideas, focus on a lower, and notice I'm doing it now, slow way of speaking.

Mel Robbins 59:00 Are there other tips in terms of displaying that kind of authority?

Evy Poumpouras 59:05 Pauses and silence are good because it lets you catch up with your thoughts. You don't, you don't have to say everything that's- that's in your head. Like, nobody cares. Just n- just give them- give them your- your- your- your top talking points. The other thing that you- you touched on is when you say less, you don't have to think as hard. So what I'm also trying to do is lighten somebody's cognitive load.

Mel Robbins 59:27 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 59:27 If I've got all this stuff in my head that I have to say, my cognitive load is maxed out. So I'm not gonna speak well because I don't have enough cognitive load to pay attention to my voice. I'm gonna go, "Okay, Mel, this is what I wanna tell you about. Um, I'm from, I drove, I- I drove up from New York and, you know, like, and I was really upset about it." And, uh, that, I'm not gonna have enough bandwidth to stop and think about how I sound. And I will tell people, even when I do the news, "I don't want- I don't want text." I'm like, "Give me my bullet points. I'm gonna practice my stuff, like the talking point. I'm gonna know my stuff. I'm gonna know these three areas really well."

Mel Robbins 1:00:08 Mm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:00:08 "And then I'm not gonna try to memorize everything else." Like, forget it. Even if I interview somebody, I'm like, I- I look through my questions, I start asking questions, but then I'll let the conversation kinda move and go. And then maybe I'll look back at my notes to see like, "Oh, did I ask that? Let me go back there." But don't get so hung up on memorizing stuff. That- that messes you up. Memorizing things, worrying about that, I think be, the most important thing when you're really trying to convey something to someone, be present physically, right? Think about how you're sitting, how you're presenting. That's more important. Think about are you looking at that person not just when you speak, but when they speak? Right? Have that, um, and then at the same time just own your voice. I think that that's really it. Own your voice. A- and then maybe get rid of things like, "I'm just gonna hurry up and say this. All right? I- I've got a few minutes left, let me just power through this." Because when you do that, you tell people inadvertently-I'm gonna hurry through this because what I have to say is not that important. So I'm gonna... I don't want to waste your time because obviously I'm- I'm wasting it. That's what I'm saying. And I really truly I learned this through watching presidents. These guys would speak. They didn't- they didn't race through anything. They get up on that mic, "Nope, I have something to say." And ju- not just them but other world leaders, they would get up there and they would speak. They would own their voice. Own it. Especially women, Mel. And I- I usually don't try to gender things but like with women we go high and we, you know, we (smacks lips) okay. And I- I think your voice captures all the stuff you've been through in life. So just make sure that the voice you're using is really your true voice and not the one that's captured all these markers of shame, of guilt, of frustration, of embarrassment, and now you're showing up with not your true voice. Where I'm going with that is you don't have to be on all the time. You don't have to be 100% brave, 100% confident. You don't always have to be here. You ha- you don't always have to operate at this level.

Mel Robbins 1:02:15 Mm-hmm.

Evy Poumpouras 1:02:16 Like it's okay if you don't. You become more courageous or more brave when you do things. I will tell you, like the more I've messed up, the more I lose, the more brave I become. You don't get better when you win. You just don't. Is it nice to win? Sure. (laughs) Is it nice not to get rejection? Sure. But it's... Bravery comes through action. It's not something you think about, it's something you do. I think what's really important is it is okay to go into a meeting and be afraid. It is okay to have a conversation with someone and be like, "You know what? I don't really have it, but I'm just gonna ask what I need to ask." I- I think what's important is get into the what am I actually doing here and maybe leave yourself, kinda leave that you out of it. Leave your... Check yourself at the door. Check your emotions at the door. Leave them there. And if you can go, come in mission focus. So if I sat there and let's say I did once this really high-profile, I don't think I have, I'm not a- allowed to say what case it is, but it was a high-profile case of a murder of a child and it was a- a very well-known case and there was new information that came out. Was I concerned? Yes. Was I nervous? Yes. All eyes were on me to get information so... But I went in and I said, "Evi, you don't matter. Evi, you're gonna li- you're gonna stay outside. You're gonna s- be focused on what you're doing and my goal is to get information to see is this person involved with the murder of this child or do they have information? What is really going on here?" And so I took all of my essence and being to focus on what I was trying to accomplish. That has helped me even in personal situations. Let's say you have a loved one and you wanna know... Let's say they have a substance abuse issue and you really wanna find out like what's going on. You're gonna check you at the do- door and you're gonna say, "Okay, it's- is not about me and how I feel. I wanna find out as much as I can about what's going on with this person and then once I get all the intel, intelligence, information I have, now I can move." So that's- that's how you become brave, when you become focused on what you're doing. So maybe these ideas of I need to be brave to do this, I need to be confident to do th- this, I need to be... to have motivation to do this, like such time wasters. So I can't do something unless I have bravery or... and I have to check that. Or unless I'm confident, check that. Or unless I'm motivated, check that. T- I'm gonna do nothing. And th- there... We create obstacles. We put these in the middle of what we're trying to do and then you know what we do? We don't do what we're supposed to do because we're chasing these outliers that really like... Are they really the barometers of whether I'm gonna accomplish something or not? I didn't- I didn't know anything when I went... When I went to NYPD my first week, I was a hot mess. I was like, "What am I doing here? Everyone's yelling at me." I'm j- I can't wear makeup. (laughs) It was like... I was like, "What do you mean you can't wear makeup?" "You're not allowed to wear makeup." I'm like, "You want me to come in like me?" So th- the... It was just so off, but was I afraid? I was all these things, but I showed up.

Mel Robbins 1:05:32 You know what you... I've learned from you so far that I think is really important and it's changed the way that I would approach a situation with a loved one is when you mentioned let's say you've got somebody that you love that has a substance abuse problem. Most of us would go into that

Mel Robbins 1:05:49 intervention or that conversation like, "I gotta get the truth out of them." And what I've learned from you in just this conversation is that you don't need them to say anything. Before you walk in that door and have that conversation, you need to be clear about your objectives and what you're doing which is you're trying to assess the situation and gather data.

Evy Poumpouras 1:06:18 And th-

Mel Robbins 1:06:18 It doesn't require them to speak at all.

Evy Poumpouras 1:06:20 So that's a great example the way you broke it down. So what is your true goal in that situation? Let's use this as an example. I have someone, a loved one who's got a substance abuse issue. What is my goal ultimately?

Mel Robbins 1:06:30 My- my goal ultimately is to be the most effective that I can to support my loved one from a safe distance and that is going to require me to get a assessment of what the hell is happening based on my gut. Because if I'm dealing with somebody with addiction, that's somebody that lies as a coping mechanism, so I know that going in. I also have a whole history of behavior that I've probably been in denial about that.

Evy Poumpouras 1:07:06 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:07:06 I know that going in.And so, you're going in to observe and obs- and, uh, assess, and to ask questions with an open heart and an open mind. But you gotta have your secret service brain training in the background, because based on body language, based on tone of voice, based on not answering questions, based on past behavior, you are gonna get all the data that you need to know where the situation is, whether they tell you the truth or not. And then, it's not on them, it's on you to decide what you're gonna do about it. Because we also know that people don't heal until they're ready to heal. They don't get sober until the pain of being drunk or stoned or whatever is way worse than the pain of actually trying to change. And so there's nothing you can do to force them to actually change. All you can do is use the tools that you're giving us right now to not get so damn emotional, and not try to control the situation, and not try to, like, accuse, but to just sit back and be like, "I'm here to get the data that I need, to know what I need to do next, 'cause that's all I can control anyway."

Evy Poumpouras 1:08:23 What am I dealing with?

Mel Robbins 1:08:24 What am I dealing with here?

Evy Poumpouras 1:08:24 I need to know what's going on in front of me. Look, and you can maybe take it one further, 'cause if you already know you might be like, "My goal is to try to talk to this person to see if... Can I get them to go get help?" Rehab or whatever help looks like. That could be really ultimately your mission. But you also have to be okay with, you may not get there. It may be like, "But my goal is to get in- the truth, so then I can try to get this person help." But I also know I'm 50% of the equation.

Mel Robbins 1:08:51 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 1:08:51 They're the other 50, so they may not want my help, or want... Right?

Mel Robbins 1:08:55 Right.

Evy Poumpouras 1:08:55 All that stuff you just said. So I have to be okay with that, and I also have to have my strategy for what do I do then afterward. And I can figure that out later, what it's gonna look like for me. Whether do I want this person in my life and how much given the circumstances? Yada, yada. But when you go in that conversation, you're not going in how I feel, what this is doing to my life. It's like, I wanna know what the fuck is going on.

Mel Robbins 1:09:19 (laughs) Yes.

Evy Poumpouras 1:09:20 Right? What am I dealing with?

Mel Robbins 1:09:21 Yeah.

Evy Poumpouras 1:09:22 And then it's, can I get you... My ultimate goal would be, my mission to get you help, but I may not get there. Maybe not that day.

Mel Robbins 1:09:31 Well, what I love about this approach is that it has nothing to do with them. And even if you go in and we all want everybody to reassure us, right? We

Mel Robbins 1:09:45 all want everybody to tell us the truth. Somebody not reassuring you is an answer. Somebody not giving you a direct answer is an answer. Somebody refusing to answer your questions is also an answer. And we spend way too much time then dismissing that and making excuses for it, da da da da da da da. Instead of saying, "This motherfucker can't even tell me the..." Like, give me a one-sentence answer to a simple question? I have all the information I need to know what I'm dealing with. And it's the inability, I think, to assess the situation and to really trust your gut and to look at somebody's behavior or their lack of behavior as the only honest answer that they can give you, and then to act accordingly.

Evy Poumpouras 1:10:35 You know, it's interesting. I did, um... I remember I did this one interview. I don't remember what the person did. He- he was involved in some kind of fraud or something, and, um, he wouldn't come out... So you would think in a, trying to get a confession from someone is, you want him to say, "I did this." And what I learned is, that's not what you're after. Like, I didn't need that. So he wasn't giving me any information about what was going on. And then fin- you know, so I never tried to get them to say, "I took this m- I stole this money. Um, I committed this crime." Like, I wasn't trying to get that. But I would get them... They're called admissions, where people admit to little, little things, and as you get these little admissions, all these little admissions give you a picture. It's like a puzzle. But some, like, I remember with him, I said to him, "You don't have to tell me if you did it or not. Can you tell me what are you worried about?" And his thing was, "I'm worried about my family." Huge red flag. I'm like, "Uh, he just gave me the admission. He just told me why he doesn't want to tell me why he- what- w- why he did what he did." So I said, "Okay, you're worried about your family." He said, "Yes, the blowback." Well, I think we needed to do a search warrant or something, and I said, "Well, w- they need to do a search warrant. How do you wanna do this? How can I help you?" Maybe he's like, "I can get my wife to leave town." So, these are little admissions that he's, without him telling me, "Yes, I did this," he's giving me little, little clues that are telling me, "I did this." You don't need the smo- (laughs) smoking gun from people. They show you. But everyone's waiting for the person to say, "I did this. I lied. I cheated." I- you... It's a waste of time to try to get that. Most of the information you're gonna get from people are little, little breadcrumbs that you collect and you put together and you got your loaf of bread.

Mel Robbins 1:12:27 And I think the biggest thing standing in the way is you don't wanna see the truth.

Evy Poumpouras 1:12:31 No.

Mel Robbins 1:12:32 And that's why we don't t- trust our guts, because all along the way, people's behavior, and their lack of behavior, and their decisions are giving you the truth about who they are and what they care about and what they're doing and what they're not doing and how they make you feel. And we are so focused on, "I did..." (whimpers) That we don't hear the bell that's ringing deep inside us. And it's really fascinating. If you could speak directly to the person that's listening, and there was just one...... Change or takeaway that you wanted them to take from everything that you taught us today, what would it be?

Evy Poumpouras 1:13:23 Handle your shit. Don't avoid your problems, don't blame other people, handle it. If things aren't right, they're not right 'cause you're allowing them to not be right. It's hard, I'm not saying it, uh, and I come with humility, I'm not, it- it's a hard thing to deal, to do it. But it is on you to handle your stuff, because when we don't, we get pissed at everybody around us. "You should this and you should that and only you should do this." And it's a really hard way to live, where your steadiness, your bravery, your confidence, your happiness, your whatever is tethered to the instability of other people and whether or not they're going to give you what you hope they will give you. Like, live in reality and live in truth. When you do that, you make better decisions.

Mel Robbins 1:14:16 For somebody who just went, "Oh, shit. Evy, like, I do have to handle my shit. I have been avoiding the truth, I have been, like, blaming other people, I haven't taken responsibility,"

Mel Robbins 1:14:30 what is the first step when you have that realization that you've been ignoring your instincts or you've been beating yourself up, or you've not been taking responsibility for changing yourself or the situation that you're in?

Evy Poumpouras 1:14:47 You're gonna sit down and you're actually going to put into effect what you're going to do. So, "I need to address this person, I need to leave this relationship, I need to quit this job." Whatever it is, "I need to throw my- ask my loved one to leave the house, or my kid who's got an addiction issuen't to, eh, wha- I have to do the hard thing." Usually the hard thing is harder in our mind. Once you do it, not saying it's not gonna hurt, but you have to do these things if it is the right thing to do. We all, eh, you know what's, we all know what we should do. We don't do it. We all know. That's what I would do. Put into action what you wanna do. The one thing I'll say is, once you come to that realization, get into a place where you're steady and prepared, because people, look, people are, I don't wanna say people are manipulative. Some people are, some people will sell you, some people will mislead you, some people will confuse you. There's this great ancient Greek, uh, quote, and I love it, it says, it was from Odysseus, from the, the Iliad. It says, um, he said, "Don't listen to your enemies. Look at them. It will tell you everything." And I'm not saying people are your enemies. But what I'm saying is, people, when you l- listen to the words they, like, people will tell you all sorts of stuff to get you to change your mind. Like, you have to not, you have to look and pay attention. Just do. I think that's the biggest thing. So, once you make that choice, put your plan in place, leave your emotional self at the door, and be like, "I'm gonna handle this." But I think one of the mistakes people make sometimes is, "I'm gonna..." And it doesn't, it's not always in this scenario, "I'm gonna sit this person down and I'm gonna tell them this and I'm gonna tell them that." Sometimes it's just like, "Pack up your shit and leave." Sometimes it's just as simple as that. You don't need to sit them down.

Mel Robbins 1:16:41 What are your parting words?

Evy Poumpouras 1:16:48 Trust yourself. Like, nobody knows what's best for you except for you. Nobody. Stop asking everybody. It's n- It's okay to ask people for guidance, but if you're gonna ask someone, make sure that they have the expertise and knowledge to, to guide you. But sometimes it's better, like, you know what the most important decisions I've ever made, I didn't ask anybody. I didn't ask anybody if I should become a cop, I didn't ask anybody if I should be a Secret Service agent, I didn't ask anybody what I should do on 9/11. I- I- I didn't ask. That's how you build confidence.

Mel Robbins 1:17:25 Evy, I think that you were here today to talk directly to me. (laughs)

Evy Poumpouras 1:17:30 (laughs) Am I?

Mel Robbins 1:17:32 Handle your shit, Mel Robbins, is-

Evy Poumpouras 1:17:35 It's hard.

Mel Robbins 1:17:36 It's hard. It is hard. There were so many incredible things that you said. This is exactly what I needed to hear. I'm sure it is exactly what you needed to hear today too. Thank you, thank you, thank you for being here, and for just telling us what we needed to hear.

Evy Poumpouras 1:17:57 I tell it to myself all day long too. (laughs) I'm not excluded. Like, we all just have to handle our stuff. But thank you. Thank you, Mel, for having me.

Mel Robbins 1:18:03 You're welcome. And for you, I wanted to just make sure to tell you in case nobody else does, that I love you, I believe in you. Now go handle your shit, like Evy just told you to, and I'll talk to you in a few days. And for you sitting here watching with me on YouTube, I just wanna say, please share this with somebody. Don't just sit and watch, please do something. And take a minute and subscribe to this channel, because it's really a way that you can support me in bringing you new videos every single day. And I'm sure you're