The Best Financial Advice You’ll Ever Hear

Mel Robbins 0:00 What's the number one thing that keeps people broke?

Morgan Housel 0:02 It's ignorance. It's not a lack of intelligence, it's ignorance.

Mel Robbins 0:08 Today, you are getting the best financial advice you'll ever hear from the man that changed the way that I think about money, the way that I make money. You're gonna love this. 10 million copies sold. Unpacking the five biggest takeaways. Let's go. Morgan Housel. Morgan Housel. Morgan Housel. Morgan Housel.

Morgan Housel 0:23 He's the author of-

Mel Robbins 0:24 The Psychology of Money. Psychology of Money.

Narrator 0:25 Psychology of Money.

Morgan Housel 0:26 The Psychology of Money. And that we live in a society that it's very easy to overspend. A lot of people are willing to give you credit cards, give you debt. It is very easy to have bad financial habits.

Mel Robbins 0:35 Instagram has basically become the new, you know, QVC.

Morgan Housel 0:39 If you're buying these things, particularly on credit, you have bad habits, you're getting yourself into debt. You know, every dollar of debt that you have is a piece of your future that somebody else owns. You can be one of the richest men in the world and have no independence.

Mel Robbins 0:53 Morgan, what do you recommend we do every time we get a paycheck or get paid?

Morgan Housel 0:57 I- I view savings as an expense, just as I would view rent or food and whatnot. Any time in finance that you can automate it, so automating your bank and say every paycheck you're gonna move $50 to savings, whatever it might be, and making it automatic, what are the odds that at least one of these happens to you over the course of your life? Job loss, divorce, medical illness, wayward children, living through a giant recession? Whatever it might be, what are the odds that at least one of those will happen to you? And the answer is 100%. And we- I think a lot of people don't want to admit that and when that happens, the savings that you have is gonna be more valuable than anything that you've- that you've ever had.

Mel Robbins 1:30 And for the person who's still thinking, "I mean, what's the point? I can barely pay my bills," what do you want them to know?

Morgan Housel 1:37 The first thing I want you to know is I feel you, I empathize with you, I don't judge you. But the second thing you should know is that it is easy.

Mel Robbins 1:44 Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. Hey, it's Mel. My team was showing me that 57% of you who watch here on YouTube are not subscribed yet. Could you do me a quick favor? Hit subscribe. It's free. And that way you don't miss any of the episodes that I post here on YouTube. It also lets me know that you're enjoying the guests and you love the content that I'm bringing you, because I wanna make sure you don't miss anything. So thank you, thank you, thank you for hitting subscribe. All right, you ready? I bet you are. So let's dive in. Morgan Housel, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.

Morgan Housel 2:26 Thanks for having me, Mel. Happy to be here.

Mel Robbins 2:28 I am so glad you're here. Thank you for jumping on a plane. I am a huge fan. I gotta give a shout out to my husband, Christopher Robbins, because he was the one who first introduced me to your work. The Psychology of Money changed my life. I am so excited for your new blockbuster, The Art of Spending Money. And we're gonna get into all the takeaways from your mega bestsellers, but I wanted to start by asking you, Morgan, if you could speak directly to the person who is here spending time together with us right now and share with them, what could be different about their life or the life of somebody that they care about that they share this episode with if they take everything to heart that you're about to share with us and teach us today and apply it to their life?

Morgan Housel 3:13 I think it would be that your ability to feel wealthy, to feel rich, to be financially independent is absolutely in your control. It doesn't matter who you are, where you're from, how much money you make, what your job is. You can do it. And we- I think we've told ourselves for generations that in order to become rich, you have to have the right educational background, you have to have the right career, you have to come from the right family, and I don't think it's- it's true. It's not about how smart you are. It's about how you think about money, it's about how you behave, and behavior is in everybody's control.

Mel Robbins 3:44 I don't know why I believe you, but I do. Like-

Morgan Housel 3:46 That's good.

Mel Robbins 3:47 (laughs) Like, I literally... Eh, no matter how in debt you are, no matter how old you are, you can learn, and that's kinda one of the big lessons I'm gonna talk about that I've distilled from your work that has changed my life and my relationship with money and the way I think about money, the way I save it, the way I spend it. It doesn't matter the starting point at all. Lesson number one that I've learned from you is you can get good with money. You believe that?

Morgan Housel 4:12 I've seen it time and time again and there are so many examples of it. Let me give you this example here. An ordinary person who doesn't have a good education, maybe they didn't even graduate high school, let's say, but they have good financial behavior, they can think long-term, they can keep their expectations in check, they're patient, they have those behavioral qualities, that person can do very well. But the person who went to Harvard and got an MBA and went to work on Wall Street, has the best education, the best connections, the best experience, that person can easily go broke, and they do. Not uncommon for that to happen. And that is not true in other fields. It is impossible to think of an ordinary person who didn't go to high school, didn't go to college performing open heart surgery better than a Harvard-trained doctor. That's impossible. That will never happen. But it does happen with money. Because it's not about what you know. You don't need to know the secret formulas, you don't need to have secret connections. If you just get your behavior right and your thinking right, you can do well. Patience, keeping your expectations in check, not comparing yourself to other people, using money as a tool to live a better life instead of a yardstick to measure yourself against others by, it's very simple stuff and it's all in your head. And it's- I think it's- it's 99% of what people need to know to do well with money is in your control.

Mel Robbins 5:26 Well, I think one of the mistakes that I made for a very long time, particularly before I bumped into your work, is I believed that there was some secret formula, that there was some private club for rich people, that it was about who you know, where you went to school. And what I love about your work is that you basically say, "No, no, no, no. You're focusing on the wrong stuff." There are actual behaviors that we can learn...... that will help you get good with money.

Morgan Housel 5:54 Exactly. And they're not that difficult either. They're in your control. It's not to say that they're easy, but they're simple. And so just, just a couple of the behaviors. If you have an ability to focus internally on your own goals rather than constantly comparing yourself against others, if you can save a little bit of your money, live sl- even slightly below your means, invest that money and be patient. Just those things, just those very... That's a kindergarten list of topics that I just gave you. That's not a bunch of Greek formulas, it's not a bunch of Wall Street gibberish, it's not a bunch of acronyms. These are very simple things, and that's it. Part of this too is redefining what, what I mean by financially successful. I'm not talking private islands and private jets, but for most people what they actually want, if you said, "What is your ultimate financial goal?" they would say, "I wanna have a stable housing for myself and my family. I wanna have a little bit of cushion to fall back onto if I were to get laid off or have a medical emergency. I wanna be able to have a dignified retirement someday. I wanna be able to spend time with my kids." Those are very good financial goals, and that level of wealth and success I think is in, within everybody's control.

Mel Robbins 7:01 Well, you said you wanted to teach us how to use money as a tool.

Morgan Housel 7:04 Yes.

Mel Robbins 7:05 ... to live a better life versus using it as a yardstick-

Morgan Housel 7:10 To measure yourself against others by.

Mel Robbins 7:12 Correct. And that's one of the core things you're gonna

Mel Robbins 7:16 teach us how to do and why this is so important today.

Morgan Housel 7:19 Of course. And it's easier said than done. It is so natural for everybody to compare yourself against others. For me to measure my level of success by not saying, "What do I have?" but, but, but by saying, "What do I have relative to that guy?" Not how, not how g- not how comfortable is my house, but by saying, "How big is my house relative to that person over there, to my neighbor, to my coworker, to my siblings?" And one of the problems that makes it more difficult today than it's ever been is that it used to be, for my parents' generation, my grandparents' generation, when they compared themselves to other people, it was relative to their neighbors or their coworkers. It was a pretty small group of people. Maybe a couple people who you saw on TV or heard about on the radio, but now today just everybody, including myself, their comparison group is the most sophisticated algorithm on Instagram or TikTok. And so no matter how well you're doing, no matter how great your house is, no matter how, how much money you're making, you turn on Instagram a hundred times a day like everybody else, you open it up, and there is somebody out there who looks better, happier, more successful, more beautiful than you are. And so this topic, I think, has always been true. It's always been important. It is more important today than it's ever been.

Mel Robbins 8:31 Mm.

Morgan Housel 8:31 The idea of keeping your expectations in check, because it's easier today than it's ever been to let your expectations just spiral out of control. I see this with my own kids, my nine-year-old son. His... When, when I was growing up, normal people drove old pickup trucks and rich people drove new pickup trucks. That was, that was like the definition in my head.

Mel Robbins 8:49 (laughs)

Morgan Housel 8:49 Like if you had a new pickup truck, like, "Oh, there's, there's a rich person." My son, who's nine, his definition of rich is like a private jet and a private island, 'cause he watches MrBeast and it's like, "Oh, sit in the circle and you'll win a million bucks," kind of thing. It's a completely different level of expectations than even I had 20 or 30 years ago. And so it's-

Mel Robbins 9:07 And the hardest thing you're gonna have is that even though you're one of the most compelling financial experts on the planet, your kids won't listen to you, Morgan. (laughs)

Morgan Housel 9:17 No, of course not.

Mel Robbins 9:17 I'm just kidding. (laughs)

Morgan Housel 9:17 Of course not. No.

Mel Robbins 9:18 I think that's really important place to start, because you have already dropped so many takeaways, and one of them was developing a skill set of looking inside yourself-

Morgan Housel 9:32 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 9:32 ... for what matters rather than looking outside yourself at MrBeast or what's on the social algorithm or what your neighbor is driving for that yardstick. But you did mention this sense that you're falling behind.

Morgan Housel 9:44 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 9:45 And so many people today in particular are feeling like they're falling behind. I mean, I have, we have a 26-year-old and a 24-year-old, and they are already feeling as though, "Okay, I'm not making enough money," and, "How am I ever gonna buy a house?" and, "How am I gonna pay for a life?" If the person listening has that sense that they're falling behind, particularly if you're older and you say, "It's too late. Like, I've already blown it, Morgan," what do you want them to hear right now?

Morgan Housel 10:14 I think there's a couple things. One is empathy, because there are areas in life where particularly a lot of people in their 20s, 30s, and 40s are falling behind relative to previous generations, particularly something like home ownership-

Mel Robbins 10:25 Mm-hmm.

Morgan Housel 10:25 ... where it was more attainable in previous generations than it is, has been particularly in the last couple of years. So empathy. This is not me saying, "Oh, you should just feel better. You should just be more grateful for what you have. You, you actually are doing fine." There is some empathy that has to be involved here.

Mel Robbins 10:39 And also for people that thought they were gonna be able to retire at a certain age and then the cost of living has gone up so much or medical bills are at a certain state that you're realizing, "Oh my God, I don't have enough money-"

Morgan Housel 10:51 Right.

Mel Robbins 10:52 "... to be able to retire." And so it is important to basically go, these are very real feelings that people have right now, and so if we start with empathy, where do we go next, Morgan?

Morgan Housel 11:02 Well, I think you start with empathy because if somebody feels like they're falling behind, that's their truth. But I think it's, it's important to realize too that all happiness is just the gap between expectations and reality.

Mel Robbins 11:11 All right, say that again. All happiness is-

Morgan Housel 11:13 All happiness-

Mel Robbins 11:14 Yeah.

Morgan Housel 11:14 ... is the gap between expectations and reality. You have the life you're living.

Mel Robbins 11:17 Yeah.

Morgan Housel 11:18 You have the life you expect to live. In between there is, is, is where you can find some level of happiness. And the wider that gap is, the more miserable you're gonna feel.

Mel Robbins 11:25 Okay, so let's talk about somebody who is in a situation where they thought they would be further along with their savings and they're starting to panic.... because they're worried that their money's gonna run out before they die, or they're not gonna be able to retire? How do you use that happiness definition right now, if that's the reality?

Morgan Housel 11:44 This is not true for everybody.

Mel Robbins 11:45 Okay.

Morgan Housel 11:45 This is not black and white, but there are a lot of these cases, I would say the majority of these cases, where the reason that person has not been able to save as much as they thought is because their expectations, for many years probably, had been spiraling out of control. And they were spending more money than they should have been, because they were trying to chase who they wanted to be, even if it wasn't necessarily the level of lifestyle that they could afford. And so they were renting an apartment that was very nice because they had an expectation that that's where they should be, and they were comparing themselves to other people, even if it was kinda out of their budget. They were traveling and dressing and eating out in a way because that's who they felt that they should be, even if they couldn't necessarily afford it.

Mel Robbins 12:24 Morgan, (laughs) you're calling us out here, Morgan.

Morgan Housel 12:28 Uh, uh, I'm calling everybody out.

Mel Robbins 12:29 Yes.

Morgan Housel 12:29 I've, I've been in this situation too. There's no shame in it. This is a very common thing that I think everyone will experience. And I think a lot of why I got interested in this topic, every book that I've written started with looking in the mirror and being like, "When have I been envious? When have my expectations spiraled out of control?" No one is immune to this, and so there's nothing to be, there's nothing to be ashamed of here.

Mel Robbins 12:51 So there's a little bit of... 'cause, 'cause, you know, just in full disclosure, I entered my marriage with $10,000 of credit card debt that my husband did not know about, and then proceeded to hide it from him.

Morgan Housel 13:02 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 13:02 But the truth is, I just walked my credit card into stores and bought stuff I didn't need with money I didn't have.

Morgan Housel 13:07 Right.

Mel Robbins 13:08 And then even if I look at what happened to my husband and I when I was 41 years old and his restaurants were going under and taking our house and our entire life savings with it, the truth is, we did spend a lot of money we didn't have.

Morgan Housel 13:23 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 13:23 We did rack up that debt, and I remember several years later, as we were starting to climb our way out, there was a level of relief when I could say to myself both "I'm responsible for this mess. I can see how I made dumb decisions at the time, because I had outsized expectations for how I thought things were gonna go," and admitting it to myself in a weird way made me feel like, "Well, if I've got the power to make dumb decisions, then maybe if I wake up and recognize that, I've got the power to make better decisions."

Morgan Housel 14:10 Yes. That's, that's absolutely true. What happens with expectations for a lot of people-

Mel Robbins 14:15 Yeah.

Morgan Housel 14:15 ... is, look, if I said, "I wanna be a 10% better dad," that's a good goal, but what does that mean? How, what does that even mean? How, how do I track that? How do I measure? That's impossible. But if I said, "I want... I'm living in a one-bedroom apartment and I want a two-bedroom apartment," that, that makes sense. If I said, "I want three new pairs of jeans," that's easy to wrap your head around.

Mel Robbins 14:34 Mm-hmm.

Morgan Housel 14:34 Money is so quantifiable. It's so easy to just say, "Uh, right now, I'm making $20 an hour. I wanna get to 25."

Mel Robbins 14:41 Got it.

Morgan Housel 14:41 I can measure it so quickly that it becomes this thing where we chase money because it's so easy to measure, and we chase spending because it's so easy to contextualize. And so if you don't have a good idea of what a good life looks like-

Mel Robbins 14:55 Mm-hmm.

Morgan Housel 14:55 ... it's very easy to just say, "A good life is one in which I have more money," because it's so much easier to understand than, "How can I become a better dad? How can I become a better parent, a better spouse, a better friend, a better worker?" That's hard to wrap your head around. Will Smith had this great... I thought it was so astute and profound. He wrote this in his biography. He said when he was depressed and poor, he could tell himself, "If only I had more money, all my problems would go away," and that gave him hope. "I just need to go out and make more money, and once I have more money, all of my depression, all of my doubts will go away." And then he became rich, and he was still depressed, and then he said he lost hope because he couldn't say, "If only I had more money."

Mel Robbins 15:34 Mm-hmm.

Morgan Housel 15:34 And so we chase money because it's so easy to wrap our heads around, and we chase it with the idea that it's a solution to all of our problems. Even if it can solve some problems, but not the biggest ones, the hole that you're trying to fill, the psychological hole that you're trying to fill is probably not gonna be filled with money.

Mel Robbins 15:50 So the takeaway that I've got from what you just shared, which is much deeper, is that if you're sitting there listening and you're saying, "I'm so behind. I'm so behind. I'm so behind," there's two things to do. First of all, you're in the right place because we're gonna be learning from you exactly what to do, Morgan, and one of the first things you said is, it's not too late because there are simple, you even said kindergarten level behavior changes-

Morgan Housel 16:14 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 16:15 ... that you can make that will help you be good with money. But the deeper thing to ask yourself is, "What is the hole that money is trying to fill for me-"

Morgan Housel 16:25 Yes. Yes.

Mel Robbins 16:25 ... "and are there things that I can do right now in terms of redefining what it means in my 20s or my 60s to be a good friend or to have a good life or to take better care of myself that don't involve hitting myself over the head about my financial life?"

Morgan Housel 16:43 Exactly. That's it.

Mel Robbins 16:44 Got it. You know, one of the things I wanna talk about before we really start unpacking some of the tactics is that at this exact moment in time, it is a really challenging moment when it comes to money, finances, the job market. If you really identify with that sense that "I'm actually scared."

Morgan Housel 17:07 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 17:07 "I'm scared I can't get a job. I'm scared about being able to make it," where do you start, Morgan?

Morgan Housel 17:12 I think if somebody says, "I'm scared about my money-"

Mel Robbins 17:14 Yeah.

Morgan Housel 17:14 ... that's their truth, and you have to empathize with that. If someone were to say, "It is worse now than it was for previous generations," that, I think, you can push back on a little bit more, and you can say-

Mel Robbins 17:24 How so?

Morgan Housel 17:25 Because you could look back at how people lived in the 1950s and the 1960s and the 1970s and say, "Look, I, I empathize with how scared you are today. It is probably not true that we are worse off today than we were in previous generations." You know, I, one thing that I've always thought is very interesting is if you ask most Americans, "When was peak middle class prosperity? When was, when were the glory days?" A lot of people-

Mel Robbins 17:48 Late '70s.

Morgan Housel 17:48 ... will point to the... A lot of people will point to the 1950s, is what they'll point at as peak middle class prosperity. But what's interesting is that if you looked at how the average middle class family lived in the 1950s, and who we are aspiring to wanna go back to, it was a quality of life that we would consider abject poverty today. I mean, the average middle class family house in the 1950s was about 800 square feet.... for you, for, you know, two bedrooms for you and your four kids. No air conditioning, no washer and dryer, no, go on down the list of what it was like back then. They were very happy, they were very content with it back then, but it's not a level of contentment that you would have today. And so a lot of what, what is w- with, with finance is that it's not necessarily that these things will make you happier. If you were to have more money, it's not necessarily that you would be happier. And that when most people think, "Oh, if only I had a bigger house, then I'd be happy," and when you imagine yourself taking a fancy vacation and you imagine how happy you would be, the emotion that you're actually thinking about is not happiness. It's contentment. If I imagine myself in Hawaii with my kids next year, and I'm just envisioning that in my head, I can come up with this emotion inside and be like, "Oh, that would be great. I would be so happy with that."

Mel Robbins 18:56 Right.

Morgan Housel 18:56 But actually, the emotion that I'm envisioning is being content with that. It's being in Hawaii and saying, "This is enough. This is all I want. I don't want anything else." What actually happens to people if they do go to Hawaii with their kids is they're sitting on the beach and, and they say, "If only I had stayed at the nicer hotel. If only we had stayed for a couple days longer. If only we had eaten at the nice- nicer restaurant last night. How come those people got a better room? How come they got better beach chairs?" And so you're not actually content with the experience that you're having. And so when you realize what you're actually chasing is contentment, you're not chasing more, you're chasing just, "I, I just wanna be happy with what I have," the first step-

Mel Robbins 19:32 Yep.

Morgan Housel 19:32 ... is realizing that a lot of your money woes and a lot of what you're feeling in terms of falling behind-

Mel Robbins 19:37 Yep.

Morgan Housel 19:37 ... and a lot of your gap between what you have and what you want is of, solely a factor of your expectations.

Mel Robbins 19:44 What if you don't think you're good with money, though? Like, s- 'cause, uh, 'cause for a long time, I had a story in my head, I'm just not good with money. Like, I, I'm bad with money. And let's say you're somebody who's gone through a divorce, you're financially wrecked, you gave all the power to your partner, now you're starting over, can anyone get good with money for real?

Morgan Housel 20:03 You can if you want to. And I think the people-

Mel Robbins 20:05 Ooh.

Morgan Housel 20:05 ... who say, "I'm not good with money" don't want to be. That's, that, they use that as their excuse-

Mel Robbins 20:10 What?

Morgan Housel 20:10 ... to say-

Mel Robbins 20:10 How so, tell, uh, c- come on now, really?

Morgan Housel 20:12 I think that they use that as their excuse. This is not a difficult thing to wrap your head around. This is very basic arithmetic. Spend less money than you make, save the difference, be patient. That's, that's it. This is what we're talking about. You can explain this to a five-year-old. And so if you're saying, "I'm not good with money," it's, you're making a choice to not get better. Nothing is easier than bad financial habits that you want to have. Like, we live in a society that it's very easy to overspend. A lot of people are willing to give you credit cards, let you, give you debt. It is very easy to have bad financial habits, and if you want those, that's an easy thing to do. As soon as you actually want it, this is not a difficult thing for anybody.

Mel Robbins 20:51 This conversation reminds me of something that I saw a musician say, I wish I could remember who it was. But I saw a musician saying, "Everybody loves it when I tell the story about how I had to live in my car for a year while I was just starting out, but nobody actually wants to live in their car for a year-"

Morgan Housel 21:07 Nobody ever wants, uh, wants to do it.

Mel Robbins 21:08 "... while they're starting out."

Morgan Housel 21:09 Right. And so a lot of these things for people who are in debt, you, you, you are one of these people, you can empathize with this, I know, is that, yes, it's going to be a sacrifice to get out of this. This might require a downshift in lifestyle relative to what you were used to. And so for a lot of people who say, "I'm not good with money," I think what they're w- though what they're actually saying is, "I don't wanna make the sacrifice. I'm unwilling to make the sacrifice to do it." And I think that is, that is true. Now what is true, the reason that you like the story about the guy living in the car is 'cause I think people actually love stories, or doing this themselves, of suffering for a noble goal.

Mel Robbins 21:49 Mm.

Morgan Housel 21:49 I think this is true in so many aspects of humanity, that it's not that peop- like, humans are very willing to suffer and put in hard work and sweat if the goal is noble enough.

Mel Robbins 22:00 I'm wondering if the noble goal for getting good with money is so that you'll be content with your life, not so that you'll make a lot of money.

Morgan Housel 22:08 To me, the noble goal, what it's always been for myself, and I think this is true for the majority of people, is independence. I have no desire to be rich in the sense of a big, a giant house, flashy cars. I, I, I have no desire to live that life. I wanna be independent. I wanna wake up every morning and say, "I can do whatever I want today," and I'm using money as a tool to foster that. That's always been my goal. Now, that's very different from saying, "I want a bigger house," or, "I want a house." Y- uh, you know, it's, it's, it's a goal of independence. And my grandmother-in-law, who had no money, was completely independent. She was beholden to no one else's influence but her own, and she lived an amazing life because of it. There are billionaires, there are deca-billionaires out there who are completely beholden to the opinions and the influence of other people. And so there are a lot of people for whom money is a, is a financial asset, but it's a psychological liability. It completely controls their identity and who they are. And there's other people who actually don't have that much money, they have no psychological liability. They're in complete control over their personality and their goals. I've, I've often used this, it's a very imperfect idea, but I think about if I was on a deserted island, maybe with just me and my family, nobody else could see how I was living. Nobody else could see my house, nobody else could see my car, it's completely invisible to everybody else, what kind of lifestyle would I live? If nobody else was watching, what kind of lifestyle would I choose to live? And in that situation, myself, and I think most people, would instantly shift from, uh, status to utility. I have no interest in status if nobody can watch it. I have interest in utility.

Mel Robbins 23:48 Hm.

Morgan Housel 23:49 And so the kinda house that I would wanna live in, the kinda car that I would drive would instantly shift from what are other people impressed by towards what is actually gonna foster a good life for myself and my family, and they're very different things. You could be, you could make $100 million a year and s- feel like you're falling behind if you're chasing other people. There's a great quote from the comedian Jimmy Carr where he says, "Everybody is jealous of what you've got. Nobody is jealous of how you got it."And that's another one of these points, it's very easy for me or, or you to look at people who are more successful than we are and say, "If we had that level of success, I would be happier." Because when we look at them, I can, I can see your house, I can see your car, I can see your cloth- I can see the material aspect of your success.

Mel Robbins 24:32 Yep.

Morgan Housel 24:32 I cannot see the hard work and the stress of how you got it, and what it took, and what it took to get there. So this is one of the problems with envy and financial envy that we have for other people, is that you don't have a good sense of what their life was and what else is going on in their life outside of, o- of money. And this is why some of the studies that are so hard to wrap your head around, because, uh, th- there's, it's so hard to even believe that these are true, the studies that show that people who are wealthy are not necessarily as happy as you would think they would be.

Mel Robbins 24:59 But here's the thing, when I hear that study, I'm like, "Who cares?" 'Cause I just wanna be wealthy. You know what I'm saying?

Morgan Housel 25:03 I know, but-

Mel Robbins 25:03 Like, I'll, like, let them be unhappy. I'll be the one person who's wealthy who's happy, I promise you, Morgan.

Morgan Housel 25:08 Or, uh, or there's a lot of people who say, "Okay, that might be true, but let me experience it myself."

Mel Robbins 25:11 (laughs) Yes.

Morgan Housel 25:12 The- they're like, they're like, "Let me get there." Because I think the pull is so profound in our heads, that if only I had more money these problems would go away. It seem, it seems like how could that not be true? And I think the people who have experienced it would say, "No, it can be true, just much less than you thought."

Mel Robbins 25:29 As a financial expert with more than two decades of experience, of research, and writing, and teaching this topic, what's the number one thing that keeps people broke?

Morgan Housel 25:41 It's this overwhelming sense of keeping up with other people, and this overwhelming sense of, "Other people have more than I do, and they're doing better than I am, and they're happier than I am." And that treadmill has, has no end. There, there's no end to that treadmill where you're gonna say, "A- if only I had this much money, then I'd be content. If only I had a bigger house, then I'd be content." Once you're on the treadmill, it's, it goes on forever. And if, I- if you're on it, it's almost impossible to feel like you're doing well with money. There's no amount of satiation, of, "If you got a raise, then, then you'll be okay. If you, if you bought, if you bought these nicer clothes, then, then I would be happy, then I would be content with it." You can be content with a pretty low level of material items. Of course, there's a basic need of food and shelter, whatnot. Above what you need, you move into the, the realm of what you want.

Mel Robbins 26:33 Well, I think we're all there. Like, uh, a- any one of us, if we're being honest with ourself, can walk into our closet and say, "There are roughly 12 pieces of clothing that we wear all the time-"

Morgan Housel 26:41 Yes.

Mel Robbins 26:42 "... and the rest of it were all things that I wanted in the moment, or I thought I needed, or I thought would impress somebody if I were going to a wedding." But you didn't actually need it.

Morgan Housel 26:50 And that is what keeps people broke. That's it. It's the simplest thing and I think people know it. They may not wanna hear it, but they know it, that it's your desire to keep up with other people.

Mel Robbins 27:00 Your mega bestseller, The Psychology of Money, changed my life, changed the way I think about money, changed my mindset about money, and I wanna read to you on page 41, this is the chapter Never Enough.

Morgan Housel 27:14 Yep.

Mel Robbins 27:16 And you write, "The hardest financial skill is getting the goalpost to stop moving. If expectations rise with results, there is no logic in striving for more because you'll feel the same after putting in extra effort. It gets dangerous when the taste of having more, more money, more power, more prestige, increases ambition faster than satisfaction. In that case, one step forward pushes the goalpost two steps ahead. You feel as if you're falling behind and the only way to catch up is to take greater and greater amounts of risk." Can you unpack that for us?

Morgan Housel 27:55 It's funny when you read that. I re- I remember writing those sentences. I remember where I was when I wrote those specific sentences.

Mel Robbins 28:00 Where were you?

Morgan Housel 28:01 I was in my basement at a house in Virginia where I wrote this book. And, um, I, I remember writing that and thinking, I, I mentioned this earlier, but so much of what I write about is self-reflection. And it's not that I've mastered these things and I'm just trying to show you how smart I am, it's like, I wrote that because I've fallen for that trap, all, all the time. It's true that the expectations game has, has no ending. There's, there's always somebody who is getting richer faster than you.

Mel Robbins 28:27 Mm-hmm.

Morgan Housel 28:27 And if you're always just seeking validation, if your key to happiness is always, "If only I had what that person has," you're never gonna be satisfied with, w- with what you have. And the w- the more dangerous thing, I think, is once you are, once you have that mindset, that, "If only I had more I would be happier," then it kinda grows exponentially.

Mel Robbins 28:46 Mm.

Morgan Housel 28:46 'Cause if only, if you tell yourself, "I'll be happy once I have $10,000." And then you get 10,000 and you're like, "Oh, maybe it's 100,000. May- if, if I had $100,000, then I'd be happy." And then maybe you're fortunate enough to get that money, and then it's, "Oh,

Morgan Housel 28:58 maybe it's a million." It grows exponentially.

Mel Robbins 29:00 And so I also think that there is this thing that happens, at least it happened for me, that as I started to feel like I wasn't under such crushing debt, or I got some reward at work, a small bonus, whatever, I immediately upticked the amount of money or the expense of the thing that I was already buying.

Morgan Housel 29:20 Right. And, and part of that, I think is, is fine. I think people can spend money in a way that's gonna make them happier. There are some people who would give you the advice of, like, "It's never gonna make you happier. Just save everything that you can, live like a monk..." And I, that, that's not my message. I think you can spend money as in wha- I, I found ways of spending money in my own household that I'm like, "Oh, that was, that was well worth it." But I also, back to the expectations thing, I grew up around Lake Tahoe, California.

Mel Robbins 29:43 Okay.

Morgan Housel 29:44 And this was before tech money, where Tahoe and Truckee, the town that I lived in, was not very wealthy. It is now 'cause tech money came in. But back then it was very much a middle class town. And then I, I went to college in Los Angeles, and I couldn't believe making that shift from middle class mountain town to Beverly Hills, kinda, area, what it did to my e- to my definition of rich. 'Cause as I said earlier, it used to be that my definition of rich was a new pickup truck-

Mel Robbins 30:11 Yep.

Morgan Housel 30:12 ... a new, a, a new F-150 was, that's a rich person. And I moved to LA and it would just, it just exploded. No matter how successful you are, you pull up to a stoplight, and even if you're driving a Lamborghini, there's 17 others right there, and you never feel like you're, you're getting enough. And the conditions for happiness, I think, were much greater.... in that middle class town. Now, I was- I did a pretty good job in LA, in my own mind, of still keeping my expectations in check. I think a lot of that was fear. I always had a fear that I was never gonna make it, and so I was saving as much as I could just out of a sense of, of a fear. Um, but if I look at everybody else, like who- who- who was happier? It was the people who were living a modest life, enjoyed their family, had a good time with their friends, focused on their health, and lived what was, by comparison to others, a very modest life. And so I think about that now, like what should your aspiration be? It's interesting with parents. If you ask parents, "What do you want for your kids?" Particularly if their kids are young, most parents will say, "I- I- I just want them to be happy when they're older." And then if you say, "Well, do you want them to be rich and successful?" The parents will probably say, "Well yeah, that would probably be great, but I just want them to be happy." And I think parents say that because you know there's a difference between the two. You know there's a difference between being rich and being happy.

Mel Robbins 31:30 Hmm.

Morgan Housel 31:30 You've experienced it as an adult.

Mel Robbins 31:32 Mm-hmm.

Morgan Housel 31:32 And so even if your kids are middle class, doing modest by expectations, you know that they can be happy if they're keeping their expectations in check and they're focusing on the things that matter.

Mel Robbins 31:44 Well, what I love that you keep coming back to is that your definition truly for the word happiness and the way we casually use it is contentment, which means you are in the present moment of your life.

Morgan Housel 31:55 Yes.

Mel Robbins 31:56 And you are not seeking something more.

Morgan Housel 31:59 I have this-

Mel Robbins 31:59 You are able to be okay with where things are and where things aren't. How can somebody figure out why they're buying something? 'Cause I think most of us mindlessly spend money because in the moment we want that thing or we're bored or stressed or whatever. Like most people don't actually know why they're spending money, so how can you, Morgan, start to become conscious of exactly why you're spending your money on things?

Morgan Housel 32:26 I think with every dollar that you spend, it's always one of two buckets.

Mel Robbins 32:30 Okay.

Morgan Housel 32:30 And you should ask yourself which bucket this falls into. Is buying this thing going to make me and my family happier, or am I buying it to impress other people, most of whom are strangers? It's- it's always one of those two things. If I'm buying food, that's for me and my family, clear as day. If I'm buying new clothes, a lot of that might be... Or a new car, a lot of that might be my attempt to impress strangers, most of whom are not paying any attention to you whatsoever. It's always one of those two things. Do you want to use money as a tool to live a better life, or do you want to use money as a, as a, as a yardstick of status to measure yourself against others by? It's completely normal and natural to have that. But when you realize that that's the game that you're playing, that a lot of these aspirations that I have are to impress people who are not even paying attention to me, and they're not paying attention to me because they're busy worrying about themselves. They're busy in their own heads saying, "Are people impressed with me? Are- Is- Are people looking at me?" And that is a, that's- that's a huge part of what's going on inside these people's heads, is that their biggest aspiration in life is trying to impress strangers who are not even looking to begin with.

Mel Robbins 33:36 Well, that was a huge, that was one of the big lessons from your work for me, which is every dollar you spend falls in two buckets.

Morgan Housel 33:44 One of those two things.

Mel Robbins 33:45 You're either spending money to make other people think something about you or you're spending money in a way that makes you feel good about you. How do you know the difference between the pair of jeans that you're about to buy that you don't need, but they look really cool and, you know, you think you're gonna look good in them and you're also feeling bad about your body so you hit spend? How do you dissect that? Because I think a lot of us don't understand exactly why we're buying things.

Morgan Housel 34:13 I had this experience in- in college. I wrote about it in my first book, The Psychology of Money. I was a valet at a five star hotel in Los Angeles.

Mel Robbins 34:20 I love this story.

Morgan Housel 34:21 It was- it was so much f- It was such a cool job. There's never been a better job. I would- I would go back and do that job again. It was so much fun.

Mel Robbins 34:26 Why did you love that job so much?

Morgan Housel 34:27 It's two things. I got to drive very fancy cars, and in the mind of a 19-year-old boy, parking a Ferrari, there's- there's nothing better in the world. And two, I didn't really realize this, uh, explicitly at the time, but it was my first window into the psychology of very wealthy people. And that to me was absolutely... I learned so much during those years, age, you know, 18 to 22. And one of the things I realized, and it- I- I- I remember when this hit me during a shift, that if somebody came into the hotel driving a Ferrari or a Lamborghini, I would stop and look at the car and be impressed, but I would never look at the driver and say, "That guy's so cool." What I would do is I would imagine myself as the driver, and I imagined that if I was driving, people would look at me and say, "Look at Morgan. He's so cool." And one day I was like, "Do- Do you see the irony? I don't care about the driver, but I want to be the driver because I think people will care about me." And it was this stark realization of like nobody is thinking about you as much as you are. They're busy thinking about themselves. And even when people are impressed with your house or your car, what they're actually doing is saying, "If I had Mel's house, if I had Morgan's car, then I would be hap- Then people would look at me." And so the idea that everyone is pretty selfish and self-centered in that sense, where they're not impressed with you. They might be impressed with your stuff because they're imagining having your stuff. Once I came to terms with that, my desire for impressing other people plunged. Didn't plunge to zero. I don't want to walk around in a burlap sack. I want to impress my coworkers and my... I- I wanna look professional, I wanted... You know, back then when I was trying to find a girlfriend who became my wife, then it- then it was very important. But the idea that no one's thinking about you as much as you are will collapse your aspirations in a wonderful way, and it will get you towards contentment much quicker than anything else.

Mel Robbins 36:21 That is such a mind-blowing realization, because if we're all chasing all this stuff on the outside so that people look at the stuff that we have and then think we're amazing-

Morgan Housel 36:33 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 36:34 You're proving, in that simple example, that's not how the human brain works at all. They think the stuff is cool, they don't think you are.

Morgan Housel 36:41 Everything being a competition for resources. It's ni- it's, it's rarely saying being impressed with another people. Not, not never, and this is, I think it's the same with your spouse, your partner. My wife does not care at all what kind of car I drive. She doesn't care about what new jeans I bought. She couldn't care... What she cares about is, am I good dad? Am I a good spouse? Am I a good friend? Am I patient and understanding and helpful? That's it. And I think you can extend that analogy to anything else in your life. Your friends, your coworkers, your relationship with your children. We spend so much time saying, "If only I had nicer things, bigger things, better things, then that would be better." What matters, and people know intuitively that this matters, is that you are a good spouse, (laughs) a good friend, a good parent. If you do want strangers to be impressed with you, they're not gonna be impressed with your car. They will be impressed with how kind and caring and helpful you are to them. Now, that's easier said than done too, because I think the overwhelming urge is, "Yeah, Morgan, like, I might, I, I, I might believe what you're saying, but I still think this car would make me happy." Like, it's such a powerful thing that we have, that it's, it's not something that you can just get over immediately. And even after doing this for 20 years and writing these

Morgan Housel 37:54 books, it's not something that I've been able to fully overcome.

Mel Robbins 37:56 And another way to prove this point is that I guarantee you in your social circle, there is somebody that you know that has a huge house or an amazing car and you would not want-

Morgan Housel 38:06 And miserable.

Mel Robbins 38:07 ... to be near them. And they're miserable.

Morgan Housel 38:08 Right.

Mel Robbins 38:08 And so just having all that stuff that you want doesn't make you like them. And so I think intellectually we know this, but if you have bad spending habits, how do you change them, Morgan?

Morgan Housel 38:22 I think you first have to ask the question, why do you have bad spending habits? What hole are you trying to fill? What has buying these things done to your happiness in the past? And if the answer is nothing, which is probably the answer, trying to fill that hole first. Trying to answer that question first. So I think you have to kinda start on the therapist's couch, literally or figuratively, and take a look in the mirror and being like, "What am I trying to achieve? Who do I wanna become? Why do I wanna be that? And why am I striving for these things?" And for a lot of people, it's kind of like a binge spending that has got them into trouble-

Mel Robbins 38:56 Mm-hmm.

Morgan Housel 38:56 ... where it's a stress relief. It's a relief valve.

Mel Robbins 38:59 Mm-hmm.

Morgan Housel 38:59 And I think what the valve... I think in your head, what you probably think it is, is, "If I bought these things, then my problems would go away." And the truth is, that, that might be true in the moment. For spending, it's almost never true. It's very rarely true that your binge spending is gonna fill any kind of emotional hole that you have. And the other thing is that if you're buying these things, particularly on credit, you have bad habits, you're getting yourself into debt, the new sweater that you bought might give you a day or two of happiness before it's either worn out or you don't care about it much anymore. But the s- but the paying it off is gonna stick with you for years or months or even decades. And so that kinda thing of controlling your future and independence. You know, every dollar of debt that you have from these poor spending habits is a piece of your future that somebody else owns. It's a piece of your time that you owe to the bank, you owe to the lender. And the opposite of that is every dollar of savings that you have, the reverse of bad spending habits, is a piece of your future that you own, that you have control over.

Mel Robbins 39:56 Mm-hmm.

Morgan Housel 39:56 Every single dollar. I viewed this since I was 17, that every dollar that I save, even if it was literally $1, was $1 of my future that I gain back. That's always how it felt to me, and that's always been my, uh, my goal for saving and my motivation for saving, was I just wanna be independent. I just wanna wake up and do whatever I want, and I feel like my savings has bought that. It's not... When I save money, it's not because I say, "Oh, I'm saving up to buy a new car," even though there, there can be that and that can be great. If I save $100, I view that as purchasing $100 of independence.

Mel Robbins 40:34 Mm-hmm.

Morgan Housel 40:34 I'm spending that money. It's giving me independence today. And I think that can be an antidote to bad spending habits. A lot of people will say, "Why save mu-" Like, they, they don't really understand the purpose of saving money.

Mel Robbins 40:46 Right, 'cause if you don't have a lot of money-

Morgan Housel 40:48 It feels worse. It feels useless.

Mel Robbins 40:49 ... it doesn't, it seems weird. Why would I put $20 away from my paycheck? Because that's all I can afford to do right now?

Morgan Housel 40:55 It's all that you can do-

Mel Robbins 40:56 Yes.

Morgan Housel 40:56 ... and so it feels like why even bother?

Mel Robbins 40:57 Yes.

Morgan Housel 40:57 I might as well just YOLO to spend ev- spend all of it.

Mel Robbins 41:00 Yes.

Morgan Housel 41:00 I think once you shift the mentality from why save $100 to spend in the future if I could just spend $100 right now? Why am I putting, why am I delaying this gratification if I could have it immediately? If you view it like that, then I understand the mentality of YOLO, spend everything. Why even save? It doesn't matter. Let's just go into debt. Who cares? Once you view it as that $100 you are purchasing today $100 of independence, $100 of peace, $100 of sleeping better at night-

Mel Robbins 41:27 Mm-hmm.

Morgan Housel 41:27 ... then it, it completely shifts the game. And so if I save $100, that's not delayed gratification. That, today, in this moment, today and tonight, gives me $100 of happiness and more contentment just a- because I feel like I'm more independent than I was before I saved that money.

Mel Robbins 41:43 Mm-hmm.

Morgan Housel 41:43 And when you get back to, I think what most people want out of money-

Mel Robbins 41:46 Oh my God, most people think that buying a nice car is the flex. You're saying-

Morgan Housel 41:50 Independence is the flex. There's a great quote from Nassim Taleb where he says, uh, "My only metric of indep- of success is how much time you have to kill." And now, you know, there's, there's obviously a, a, a spectrum of that, but that's always been, I, I just want independence. And you can have independence at a pretty low level of financial income and assets. That was my grandmother-in-law. She had nothing and she had pure independence. You can be one of the richest men in the world and have no independence, completely beholden to the opinions and the desires of somebody else. And there are multi-billionaires who are way less independent than my grandmother-in-law. And that, I think, is a empowering message of, like, your feeling of being independent is a, is a feeling, it's a story that you've told yourself.

Mel Robbins 42:38 Mm-hmm.

Morgan Housel 42:38 It's not... There, there, there's no financial level-...at which, like, okay, once you have this much money, then you're set free. You can be a multi-billionaire and completely beholden to other people. You can have very little money and have pure financial independence in your head.

Mel Robbins 42:54 Let's touch on investing, because you have a really great take on this. You say that success in investing has more to do with long-term thinking and avoiding jealousy-driven behavior.

Morgan Housel 43:07 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 43:07 Why is that so powerful?

Morgan Housel 43:09 All compound int- so compound interest is an incredible thing of just, you're growing your money over time and it grows at an increasingly higher level, and that's how you be- become-

Mel Robbins 43:17 Can you explain that to the person listening who may not know what that is? 'Cause I know a lot of people are gonna share this episode to people in their lives who may have never ever listened to anybody when it comes to the psychology of money or how to change your behaviors around money. So what is compounding interest?

Morgan Housel 43:34 So let me explain it very simply.

Mel Robbins 43:36 Great.

Morgan Housel 43:36 We have, we have $100.

Mel Robbins 43:37 Yeah.

Morgan Housel 43:38 And we earn a 10% return on our money this year. So in one year we have $110, 10% return. So you're, you earn $10 in profit this year. I'm also gonna earn a 10% return next year. So now I earn 10% on $110, so my profit that year is 11. So my profit in year one is $10, my profit in year two is $11. My profit in year three might be $12 or $13. It's growing every year because you are earning gains on your gains. And if, and if you extend that over a lifetime, over 30 or 40 or 50 years, the returns get absurd. And so the example that I use in my book is Warren Buffett, greatest investor of all time, he's worth over $100 billion. Nobody comes close to the level of investing success that he's achieved. 99% of his net worth was accumulated after his 60th birthday.

Mel Robbins 44:28 Say that again?

Morgan Housel 44:29 99% of his net worth was accumulated after his 60th birthday. Now, when he was 60, he was a billionaire. Absurdly successful by any metric. But he became worth over $100 billion from age 60 to, he's 94 today. And so the reason that's the case is that how compound interest works, it's not necessarily about what your returns are, it's about how long can you keep it going. And I think what is so empowers- empowering for ordinary people is that if you can be an average investor for an above average period of time, you can achieve absolutely incredible returns. And so a lot of people when investing, they look, "Well, I can't compete against Wall Street. I can't compete against all these smart hot shots in the hedge funds. They know more things, they can earn higher returns than I can." And so you become discouraged. The truth is that you don't need to do anything extraordinary with your returns. You need to have extraordinary patience. And so if you can be average for 30 years, you will end up in the top 1% of investors. Hey, my parents, uh, really personified this. My parents are smart, educated people, but they have no financial experience, no financial education, no financial background, no connections, no information that anybody listening to this doesn't have. Uh, but they have had extraordinary patience and s- and self-control and discipline. So they have been investing consistently every month for 40 years. Never sold anything. Every month they invest a little bit of money, leave it alone for 40 years. If you look at their returns, they would literally be in the top of professional money managers without knowing anything, without having any extra information that you and I or anyone listening can't have, because they had the one skill that actually mattered, which was just patience, patience and discipline. And that's all you need. That's the only thing that you need. And, you know, there's a, there, there's some very interesting stories of professional investors who, I remember hearing this story about this professional investor who in any given year was never in the top half measured against his peers. In any given year, you look at this money manager and you're like, "Yeah, he did okay. Nothing extraordinary." But over 30 years, he was, he was the best, because that's all you need. It's not about what you earn this year, it's about how long can you keep it going for-

Mel Robbins 46:45 Mm.

Morgan Housel 46:45 ... is all that matters.

Mel Robbins 46:47 You know, having been $800,000 in debt and having liens on my house, I... And clawing my way out of it. You know, it's funny, in almost every interview I get asked, "So how did you get out of debt?" I'm like, "15 years of-"

Morgan Housel 47:02 Right.

Mel Robbins 47:02 ... just clawing away-

Morgan Housel 47:04 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 47:04 ... at the bills and saving more than I spent." I mean, it was lowering expectations for my lifestyle. I mean, it was grueling. But now I notice that I'm afraid to really

Mel Robbins 47:18 do anything that feels slightly risky.

Morgan Housel 47:21 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 47:22 And I know there's a lot of people that are worried about losing their money. And so if you have a mindset where you're worried about losing the money that you have, do you still recommend that people invest in the stock market?

Morgan Housel 47:36 Yeah. Uh, but it's always, the question is how much. And so-

Mel Robbins 47:40 Right.

Morgan Housel 47:40 ... I have that fear. I was... I've never been buried in debt. I've always been a diligent saver. But I probably have, and if you put me on the psychologist's couch, you could maybe pull a string of why this might be, but I've always had kind of a worst case scenario, prepare for the worst mentality-

Mel Robbins 47:56 Okay.

Morgan Housel 47:56 ... of everything that I've done in life. So I think that's why I've been a big saver. And so I have, if you looked at my entire net worth, I'm trying to... It's probably half, maybe a little bit more than half in the stock market. Most financial advisors, so if you looked at somebody my age and my income, would say, "You can have way more than that." And I say, "No, no, no. Like this is... That's, that's fine. That's plenty," because I have this kind of worst case scenario-

Mel Robbins 48:19 Yeah.

Morgan Housel 48:20 ... thinking. And that's fine. That works, that works for my personality. My, my financial goal in that aspect is maximizing for how well I sleep at night. I have no desire for my tombstone to say, "He was in the top 5% of investors. He outperformed the S&P 500." I, I couldn't care less. I wanna use money as a tool to help me sleep at night. That's the metric that I'm going for.

Mel Robbins 48:40 Mm.

Morgan Housel 48:40 And so during periods when the market has done very poorly, 2008...... 2020 during COVID. Uh, it didn't really have that much impact on me because it was... I was never 100% in it. I always had plenty to fall back onto if things... Um, so I have quite a bit of cash and bonds and, like, boring basic savings.

Mel Robbins 48:59 Same. (laughs) Same.

Morgan Housel 48:59 And look, you, like... Y- you can overdose on that, you can overdo that, but I think the idea that most financial advisors would just say, "Well, look, you know, if you wanna maximize your investing returns, this is, this is how much you should have in the stock market," that can be true for some people, but you really have to look in the mirror with you and your, maybe your spouse and your partner and say, "Well, like, what are we trying to maximize for?" And th- I think there's no amount of investing return that can compensate for waking up at 2:00 in the morning and saying, "Oh, shit, am I doing this right? H- have I gone too far?" There's no amount of return, at least for me, that would be worth it for that. I w- I would much rather just use money as a tool to be happy, and look at my savings and think... You know, I have, I have young kids right now.

Mel Robbins 49:42 Mm.

Morgan Housel 49:43 When I think about my savings, I think about if something terrible happened to our family, my career, our health, whatever it might be, this savings is a cushion to prevent hardship on my children.

Mel Robbins 49:54 Mm.

Morgan Housel 49:54 Now, everyone's in a different situation, but for me at this phase of my life, that's, that's what it is to me. And so it's not about like, "Oh, am I maximizing investing return?" It's, "Am I using this as a tool to give myself and my kids and my wife a, a better life?" That's what it is for me personally.

Mel Robbins 50:09 Well, and that's what you said at the very beginning. You either use your money as a tool in order to live a good life and to be content, and you've now introduced this question, "What am I maximizing for?"

Morgan Housel 50:21 Right.

Mel Robbins 50:22 And... Or you're using it as this yardstick so that you can measure up with people externally.

Morgan Housel 50:29 Right. And there's-

Mel Robbins 50:29 Those are the two things.

Morgan Housel 50:30 And there's a graveyard of stories of people, most of them were very wealthy people, who the goal of their investments was beat other people.

Mel Robbins 50:38 Yeah.

Morgan Housel 50:38 Their goal was outperform the next guy, and it completely backfired on their... They were chasing a goal that had no impact on their quality of life, and that has, that's never made much sense to me. It's always just been like, "How can I use this as a tool to be happier?" And there are a lot of people... I explained in Psychology of Money how I invest my money, and I was maybe not surprised, but I think it's so interesting to me that it seems like their goal is making the spreadsheet happy.

Mel Robbins 51:03 Yes.

Morgan Housel 51:03 Their goal is so that you could come up with a formula that says you're maximizing return, and my goal has always been use it as a tool to live a better life.

Mel Robbins 51:12 What is the shorthand version, I do... I know you do write about it in your book, for how you do invest your money?

Morgan Housel 51:17 So I invest in what are called index funds, which are very boring, very basic. You o- basically own every stock in the universe. Pick a public company, I own it in this fund, very low cost, and I invest consistently every month, every quarter, and I've never sold anything in any significant amounts, and I hope to do that forever. I hope... This is money that I pass along to my kids or charity or whatever it might be, and, and that's it. It's as boring and basic as that. And if you look at my entire net worth, it's a house, cash, index funds, and shares of a company called Markel where I'm on the board of directors, and that, that's it. It's, it's as simple and boring and basic as you can get. The more complicated your investments are, the lower the odds that you can actually stick with them-

Mel Robbins 52:02 Mm.

Morgan Housel 52:02 ... for 10 or 20 or 30 years. And getting back to compound interest, like, all that matters is, can you stick with this? Can you keep this going for years or decades? And I think the simpler it is, the fewer levers you have to pull in your portfolio, the higher the odds that you're gonna be able to stick with it for a long period of time.

Mel Robbins 52:18 You keep saying the word patience.

Morgan Housel 52:20 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 52:21 And I think it's both patience with the things that you're doing, patience with yourself as your life is not meeting your expectations.

Morgan Housel 52:30 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 52:30 Patience with your emotions when you feel like maybe if you bought that new thing, those new set of golf clubs, it'd make you feel a little less depressed. Patience, patience, patience. For somebody who's never invested, they don't look at their money, they feel intimidated by this, what would you say to them, Morgan?

Morgan Housel 52:52 One of the most important things about investing in the stock market is that we know historically you can do very well over time. You can make a lot of money in the stock market over time. Like anything else in life, there is a cost of that.

Mel Robbins 53:03 Yeah.

Morgan Housel 53:03 There, there is a fee for doing that. And when I say fees, I'm not talking about fees to your advisor or fees to your broker. The fee for doing well in investing is putting up with a constant, never-ending chain of volatility and uncertainty. That's what you're getting paid for. That's the cost of admission, is putting up with the fact that I am very confident that the stock market will do well over the next 20 years, but I have no idea when that return's gonna come. We might get all of that return next year, and then have 19 s- years of stagnation. We might get 19 years of stagnation, and then it all comes in year 20. We have no idea when it's gonna come.

Mel Robbins 53:38 Mm.

Morgan Housel 53:38 And enduring that and putting up with that is the cost of admission. There are other investments out there that have no volatility. A savings account in the bank, you have no volatility, very predictable what your returns are gonna be. Your returns are gonna be low. Those are the returns that you, uh, deserve. And so if you're willing to put up with volatility and uncertainty and not knowing, that's-... what you think other people want out of you. And there are some pretty astounding examples of the two sides of the spectrum. I use this in the book, The Art of Spending Money. The Vanderbilt family was the richest family that the world had ever seen. Uh, back in the 1800s, Cornelius Vanderbilt, if you adjusted for inflation, he had something like half a trillion dollars, was his, his net worth. And some of the other very wealthy families, the Carnegies, the Rockefellers, did a pretty good job at giving most of their money away to charity. The Vanderbilts basically said, "We're gonna give it all to our kids and our grandkids and our great c- great-grandkids, and their job is to live the biggest, most ostentatious life that you can possibly imagine." And the biographies that came from there of those Vanderbilt heirs would show, I think without exception, that every single one of them was miserable.

Mel Robbins 55:41 Hm.

Morgan Housel 55:41 Every single... These were, you know, if you were a Vanderbilt heir in the early 1900s, the day that you were born, you got half a billion dollars trust fund, and the only thing that was ever expected out of you in life was that you spend as big as you possibly can. And every single one of them was miserable. There's a book called Fortune's Children written by one of the heirs, his name is Arthur Vanderbilt, and he talks about the history of his, of his ancestors. And it is the sadde- one of the saddest books I've ever read, because these people are people who maybe you and I and people listening would look at and say, "You're so lucky. That's, th- I can't believe how lucky you got. You just got a billion dollars the day you were born." And you read it and you say (laughs) like, "I would not, I would never, I would never want that life." Because they were so... They were very rich, they were the richest people in the world, but they had no independence.

Mel Robbins 56:31 Hm.

Morgan Housel 56:32 Everything was dictated about... Even including who they were allowed to marry was dictated by kind of the social circle of, of their family. And th- to me, the most interesting part of the Vanderbilt family is that by this point today, virtually all the money is, is gone. There are a couple of Vanderbilt heirs that have some money, but the first Vanderbilt heir who got no inheritance, no trust fund, was Anderson Cooper, the CNN host, who-

Mel Robbins 56:59 Mm-hmm.

Morgan Housel 56:59 ... I'm sure most people are familiar with. His mother, Gloria Vanderbilt, was kind of the last person to get a big trust fund. And Anderson Cooper has talked about this, that being the first Vanderbilt heir who didn't get much money was probably a good thing. He was the first person in his family in, like, 150 years who was told, "You have to go figure it out for yourself. You have to build your own career, make your own money, figure out your own way." And he's talked about this, like, he's probably the happiest person in his career. Not that he's had a perfect life, but he's, he's probably one of the happiest. And I think that is, again, like, if you look at the richest people, because the Vanderbilts were the richest people in the world and they had no wealth, by my definition, they had no independence, they had no ability to live their own life. I think that's the difference between rich and wealthy.

Mel Robbins 57:42 It all comes back to, what are you actually using money for? And the clearer you are about the drivers for why you're doing it, it changes what and how you're doing it.

Morgan Housel 57:53 Yes. And it's so clear in my head, like, would you rather earn $70,000 a year and your kids admire you, you've, have a great marriage, you have barbecues with your friends and you sit and laugh and you're in good health, and... Would you rather have that life or make a million dollars a year and you're on your fifth divorce, your kids don't talk to you anymore, you're in terrible health, you're being sued by all of your business partners? It's... When you frame it like that, it's the most obvious thing in the world. Like, would you rather have a good life and less money or more money and a, and a worse life? If you frame it like that, it's obvious. But still, even if you agree with that framing, it is so normal and natural to say, "Okay, but I'd still rather make a million dollars a year." Like, the pull is still always there.

Mel Robbins 58:38 Well, 'cause you think you're gonna be the exception.

Morgan Housel 58:40 Everybody does.

Mel Robbins 58:41 Everybody does.

Morgan Housel 58:42 Right.

Mel Robbins 58:42 So if you're in your 20s and you're just getting started, you haven't been a big saver, you're just got your first job out of college, Morgan, what is your advice in terms of getting good with money?

Morgan Housel 58:56 A really simple tool that... I- I came to this by realizing that most peoples who are making financial mistakes and have a problem with money, it's not because of a lack of intelligence, it's, it's ignorance. And for most people, they actually have no idea how much money they're making or spending. And if you ask them, like, "How- how much money do you make per month? And how much money do you spend per month overall?" M- most people in that situation either couldn't tell you or they would give you an answer that's false. And I think the, the very basic such boring advice that goes the longest is, check

Morgan Housel 59:30 your bank account balance every single day. It takes 10-

Mel Robbins 59:32 Every single day?

Morgan Housel 59:33 Every day, every day. It takes 10 seconds. It's not that hard. And just to give yourself some sense of how much money is coming in and how much is going out. Just be cognizant of it. I've never... Now, people don't do this anymore, but back in, in a different generation, balancing your checkbook was always a big thing. Most people don't do it anymore. But I remember for my entire life since I've been a teenager, I've never had any desire to, never need to do that, because I know my bank account balance down to the dollar every day (laughs) since I've been 16 or 17.

Mel Robbins 1:00:02 Hm.

Morgan Housel 1:00:02 And I think just having that awareness of what's going in and what's going out is the most basic advice. But for people who are new and starting out, nothing goes further than that. It's not a lack of intelligence, it's ignorance. You just have to become aware of what you're spending and how much is coming in and how much is going out. That's the very first thing.

Mel Robbins 1:00:18 And what's the next thing?

Morgan Housel 1:00:19 The other thing is, financial independence exists on a spectrum. It's not black and white. So most people would say, we talked about this earlier, "Why save $20 that doesn't seem like it's gonna make any difference whatsoever? So I'm not even gonna save." Every dollar that you save is a piece of your future that you own. Every dollar that you save is a little bit marginally more comfort that you're gonna have if you get laid off, if you have a medical emergency, if your car breaks down. Every single dollar is getting you to that place. So if you view independence as black and white, "Either I'm filthy rich or there's no reason to do it," then I understand why you would say, "Why even save?"

Mel Robbins 1:00:56 Hm.

Morgan Housel 1:00:56 When you view it as, "Every dollar that I save is a piece of my future that I control-"It's a night of sleep in the future that's gonna be a little bit better. I think the desire to save becomes even more, and you don't feel like it's idle money, like you're saving money and it's just sitting there not being used. It can give you pleasure today, right now, and I think some of the best financial decisions I've ever made was what I didn't do. I almost bought a house in my early 20s that I wouldn't have been able to afford, that would have locked me down to a region of the country that I didn't wanna stay in, that would have done all kinds of things that in hindsight would have been terrible. And the freedom, the independence that I had by renting earlier in my life, of getting up and going, moving to where the jobs were, I look back at that in hindsight as being an absolutely wonderful thing.

Mel Robbins 1:01:43 Well, you know, as I listen to you, what I'm realizing, it's also a matter of expectations.

Morgan Housel 1:01:48 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:01:48 If you expected to be able to afford a house in your late 20s or early 30s, then of course you're going to think you failed.

Morgan Housel 1:01:56 Right.

Mel Robbins 1:01:56 But if you shift your expectations and say to yourself, "If I'm patient, markets go up and down, inflation goes up and down-"

Morgan Housel 1:02:04 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:02:05 "...mortgage rates go up and down. If I am patient, I will be able to figure this out, and when the timing is right and when I can afford it, I will find the right house for me."

Morgan Housel 1:02:15 Yes.

Mel Robbins 1:02:15 And that's the way that you manage the stress that you feel right now, because it's your expectation based on what society is telling you or your-

Morgan Housel 1:02:23 Right.

Mel Robbins 1:02:23 ... parents are telling you that is making you miserable around the topic. You know, one of the other big lessons of your work is the importance of mastering saving money, and I had always made the mistake of thinking about making more money. I gotta make more money in order to have more money. And you really switched my thinking to focus on saving. Can you talk about why saving is so important versus the obsession with making more?

Morgan Housel 1:02:52 Well, so much is, is just what you need to be happy and content, and, um, you know, for someone, it's, uh, I've always felt like my level of savings, since I don't need that much to be happy. We live a... My wife and I live a good life, but not a, not a very materially flashy life. So we don't need that much to kinda check the boxes in our life, and so I feel like that can be a, a super power for your savings. If, if you need $10,000 to be happy but I only need $1,000 to be happy, like, I'm getting way more out of that savings than you might, and so once you realize that that gap between expectations and reality is like the fe- the sup- like supercharging your savings, then it has a totally different feel. And so this was especially true when I was younger, where saving $100 or $1,000, that was, that made an extraordinary difference in my life. I think the wealthiest I've ever felt was when I had $5,000 in the bank, and I, I remember just feeling like that's... It was such an unfathomable a- a- amount of money at that phase in my life, and I look back at it now, where that would, that's a less meaningful amount of money to me now than it was back then, but I look back at it now, I'm like, "Yeah, but I was..." Like, "I- I- I thought it was more extraordinary back then." And isn't that kind of sad that, like, that made me feel so rich? I remember waking... when I had $5,000 and just being like, "I can't even fathom how much this is," and now I don't get that feeling with that kind of money, and isn't that kind of sad? That's what happens when your expectations kinda, kinda spiral up. So the idea that the power of your savings is completely dependent on the expectations of what you have and the lifestyle that you wanna live I think is, is, is, is a pretty powerful idea.

Mel Robbins 1:04:29 How do you switch the focus, though, from this obsession of making more to understanding the importance of saving?

Morgan Housel 1:04:37 I've, I've always viewed it as, again, back to independence, and if you are earning a high salary but you need that money-

Mel Robbins 1:04:45 Mm.

Morgan Housel 1:04:45 ... to, to pay your bills this year, you have no independence whatsoever. But if you have lower expectations and a, a lower level of life, still a good life, not a, not a completely frugal life, a good life, and your savings can cover some portion of that, that's gonna give you a better sense of contentment in there. And so look, I wanna earn more money. I wanna earn more money this year than I did last year, I wanna earn more money next year. I have that as well. I think ambition is a, is a wonderful thing, but I also have a level of savings that would tell me that if I did not earn more money next year, even if my income collapsed next year, I'd be okay. And particularly at this phase of my life with kids, nothing matters more than me to that. If my career collapsed next year, we'd still have our house. We'd still have this level of savings that I've been saving for, for, oh, you know, 25 years, having these savings built up to which we're gonna be okay, because income can be much more fickle than savings. Is... You know, most people over the course of their life, what are the odds that you will get laid off at some point in your life? Very high.

Mel Robbins 1:05:44 Guaranteed, I think (laughs) -

Morgan Housel 1:05:46 Very... Almo- almost 100%-

Mel Robbins 1:05:47 Yes.

Morgan Housel 1:05:47 ... that at some point in your life your income's gonna fall to zero. It might be for a week, it might be for a year, it might be for... You know, who, who knows how long it's gonna last, but it will happen to you. So income is much more fickle than savings.

Mel Robbins 1:05:57 Mm.

Morgan Housel 1:05:57 And when that happens to you, and it will, maybe it already has, the savings that you've built up in the previous years is gonna be the most valuable thing that you've ever imagined.

Mel Robbins 1:06:06 Morgan, what do you recommend we do every time we get a paycheck or get paid?

Morgan Housel 1:06:11 Uh, I view savings as an expense, just as I would view rent or food and whatnot. Now obviously, it is more subjective. You don't have to save in the sense that you have to buy food, but if, but once you view savings as a nice-to-have, it's, it's almost unavoidable that you're gonna, you're gonna avoid doing it. Once you view it as, "I don't need to do this," you're gonna view it as, "I shouldn't do it then."

Mel Robbins 1:06:36 So how do I think about it if I think about it as an expense?

Morgan Housel 1:06:39 I think about savings as the most valuable portion of my, of my financial life. I think the idea that life is more fragile than we want to admit, careers are more fragile than we want to admit, the economy and geopolitics are more fragile than we want to admit is why you should save. If we all lived in a world where we knew exactly how, what our income and expenses would be in the future, this would all be very easy.... but we don't. It's a constant chain of, of unknowns and surprises in your personal life and throughout the broader country, the broader world. And that's why savings is mandatory. And I just like... I think everyone has a desi- has an obligation to manage their health. You have to manage your health. You can't just put it off. It's gonna affect you whether you like it or not. I think money falls in that bucket too, as well. Even if you don't have any desire to learn about money or finances, you have an obligation to learn about it and to respect it, because it's gonna impact your life whether you like it or not.

Mel Robbins 1:07:36 Here's one way that I have started treating savings like an expense. Use the 10% rule. No matter what you're getting paid, save 10%. So if you're working a restaurant shift and you get

Mel Robbins 1:07:49 50 bucks in tips, save $5. That's the 10% rule. If you watch somebody's dogs this weekend and somebody's paying you a hundred bucks to watch the dogs over the weekend, save $10. That's the 10% rule. And that's how you can make savings a habit, no matter how little or how much you make.

Morgan Housel 1:08:06 Anything is exponentially better than nothing. And I, I meet people... I, I, I remember when I was younger, when I was a teenager, saving $5, saving 10... I remember transferring $15 from my checking account to my savings account. And that might seem completely worthless to people, but it made sense to me back then of, like, that's, that's, that's a meal in my future that I have now that I didn't have before. It's like anything is better than nothing is, is, is the most important rule of thumb.

Mel Robbins 1:08:37 Is there a simple and effective way to make saving money a habit?

Morgan Housel 1:08:43 Anytime in finance that you can automate it as well.

Mel Robbins 1:08:46 Okay.

Morgan Housel 1:08:46 So automating your bank, and say every paycheck, you're gonna move $50 to savings, whatever it might be, and making it automatic, the more that you can take behavior out of the system.

Mel Robbins 1:08:56 Hmm.

Morgan Housel 1:08:56 Uh, because we're all flawed. We're all emotional, we're all biased, we've all got social pressures. I do, you do, everybody does. The more that you can take emotion out and put automation in, the better you're gonna do over time.

Mel Robbins 1:09:08 And for the person who's still thinking, "I mean, what's the point? I can barely pay my bills," what do you want them to know?

Morgan Housel 1:09:16 The first thing I want you to know is I feel you. I empathize with you. I don't judge you. I'm sure you're a good person and you should not be embarrassed about it because there are tens or hundreds of millions of other people in your shoes. So knowing that you're not alone I think is an empowering thing for most people, because a lot of people look at their lack of savings, look at their poor financial s- uh, skills and they feel guilt, shame and embarrassment.

Mel Robbins 1:09:39 Hmm.

Morgan Housel 1:09:40 And you shouldn't. This is a very, very common thing. It doesn't mean you're a bad person. But the second thing you should know is that it is in your control. I use this in The Psychology of Money. It's an astounding story. There's a guy named Ronald Read. Ronald Read came-

Mel Robbins 1:09:53 (laughs)

Morgan Housel 1:09:53 ... from the most humble, if not impoverished background that you can imagine. And even as an adult, he spent his entire career as a janitor and a gas station attendant. And when he died, he left millions of dollars to charity. And everyone was like, "Where... Th- this janitor has millions of d..." Like, "What in the world happened here?" And the answer was he saved what little he could, $10 here, $20 there, maybe $100 here. He invested in the stock market. He left it alone for, like, 70 years, and that's it. That's the whole story. And that's, that's all you need. If you have the right behavior, if you have the right mindset, you don't need much else to even achieve extraordinary returns over time.

Mel Robbins 1:10:31 You know, one of the big lessons from your work for me is also this idea that enough is better than more. And I'm reading from your blockbuster bestseller, The Art of Spending Money. This is page 36. "Desiring less can have the same impact on your well-being as gaining more money. And desiring less does not mean giving up. It doesn't mean you don't know how to spend money and have a good time. I think it's quite the opposite. To be content with what you have is the deepest way to enjoy the house you've purchased, the clothes you wear, and the vacations you take." Talk to us about that.

Morgan Housel 1:11:14 Having enough does not mean you have no aspirations for more. I wanna work very hard this year and earn as much money as I can, and I wanna do that next year and the year after that. But with as much emphasis, with as much strategy and will, I wanna think about my expectations and keep my expectations in check. And when you realize that wealth is what you have versus what you want-

Mel Robbins 1:11:37 Hmm.

Morgan Housel 1:11:37 ... and the, the wider that gap is, the worse you're gonna feel. The narrower that gap is, the better you're gonna feel. You can mix aspirations for wanting more with contentment with what you have and appreciation for what you have as well. And it's-

Mel Robbins 1:11:50 How do you do that?

Morgan Housel 1:11:50 You have to go out of your way to think about it all the time, because it's not normal and natural. What is normal and natural and everyone's knee-jerk reaction is, "I want more, and once I have more, I'm gonna be happier about it." The idea of being gracious and having gratitude for the world that we live in, for what we have rather than what we don't have, for me, it takes effort to do that. But every therapist, every psychologist would tell you how powerful gratitude is. And it sounds kind of