The Best Way to Deal With Narcissists Without Arguing | The Mel Robbins Podcast

Mel Robbins 0:00 People on the internet are diagnosing other people-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 0:02 Correct.

Mel Robbins 0:03 ...with narcissism.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 0:03 Correct.

Mel Robbins 0:04 What you're here to say is that this is a personality style-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 0:08 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 0:08 ...that is maladaptive-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 0:09 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 0:09 ...that hurts other people.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 0:10 Setting boundaries with narcissistic people is akin to hugging a porcupine. Show me a 35-year-old narcissist, and I will show you someone who was horrible as a teenager. Show me someone who was horrible as a teenager, I don't know if they're going to be narcissistic when they're 35.

Mel Robbins 0:26 You want a clear-cut-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 0:29 I know.

Mel Robbins 0:29 ...answer?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 0:29 And there's not one. Try that with a narcissist. Call me up, let me know how that works.

Mel Robbins 0:36 Hey, it's your buddy Mel, and this weekend, my husband and I are gonna go to this function, and I don't wanna get too specific because I don't want a particular person to know that I'm talking about them. (laughs) But we're going to this function this weekend where there's going to be a particular person, and honestly, the person's really hard to deal with. Like, it's always about them. They hate it when things don't go their way. And how do you know that? Because they either erupt, or they stir the pot, or they're constantly, like, making trouble, or they're sulking in the corner, like, trying to draw the attention to them. And here's the other thing about this person and their personality: they don't have any interest in anyone but themselves, unless of course they need something from you, and then of course you're the first person that they're gonna call. Now, I bet you've got someone, or maybe many people like this in your life too. They never ask you a single question about your life. It's like it doesn't even occur to them. And it's not like it has to be about me all the time, but it's so clear when you're around this person that it's always about them. Is this ringing any bells for you? Maybe it's your brother. Maybe it sounds like I'm describing your boss, or your dad, or your mom, or maybe it's the person that your sister is now dating. I mean, you can't quite put your finger on it. But something is off. And you always know that anytime that you're gonna have to spend the weekend with them, or be in a meeting with them, or have a family dinner with them, you are gonna leave and you're gonna feel drained, you're gonna feel slightly annoyed by simply having had to be around them. Tho- that's my weekend plans. Now, do you have that person in mind? Do you know how to deal with them? Do you know how to protect yourself from this kind of personality where it's always about them? No matter what, they always bring it back to them. Well, that's what you and I are gonna talk about today. And we're not just gonna talk about this particular personality type. You are going to get a playbook of tactics, strategies, dos, and you're definitely getting the don'ts, things to say, things not to say, so that the next time you're about to be with somebody who's literally all about themselves, you know exactly what to do. So YouTube, you love her, you know her. It's Dr. Romney. And so let's jump to our studios in Boston where we taped this conversation. I'm

Mel Robbins 3:16 just gonna start firing them away.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 3:17 Let's go.

Mel Robbins 3:17 And there are some amazing questions here. So this is a great question, we got this one a lot. What is the difference between a narcissist and someone with an inflated ego?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 3:25 So when we talk about narcissism, and it's so- something I've talked to you before, a carrot is not soup. A carrot is an ingredient in soup. An inflated ego is just a part of the larger spectrum of narcissism, which also includes things like variable empathy, entitlement, arrogance, grandiosity, the need for admiration and validation, envying other people, the need for control, on and on and on and on. A person with an inflated ego, am I willing to take the bet that they're narcissistic? Sure, but I'm not sure I'm gonna move all my chips to the middle of the table.

Mel Robbins 4:00 One of the things that you said in the first episode that we did with you was you made a distinction between somebody who's annoying, and that's someone with an-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 4:09 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 4:09 ...inflated ego-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 4:10 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 4:10 ...versus somebody who is narcissistic-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 4:12 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 4:12 ...who is harmful.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 4:13 Yeah. That's it. It's the harmful part. And I think that that's a key element, because I think by definition if a person really does have the whole constellation of stuff you need to have to be narcissistic, inflated ego's definitely part of it, but there are people out there who have these big inflated egos, but they're actually kind of these, also can be very teddy bear-ish. They sound, they almost sound like, I don't know, like, circus-y people, like, "I am the best. I am the greatest. Come here. Give me a hug. I think you're so great too," and they're actually very sweet and pleasant.

Mel Robbins 4:43 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 4:43 So it's a... That's why I'm saying you can't assume. Do they tend to go together? Like, it's a bet, right? Do I, if I see inflated ego, am I willing to bet that this horse might be narcissistic? Sure.

Mel Robbins 4:53 You know, one thing I wanna do to defend you is that, uh, this person had asked, uh, "Are we mistaking personality traits with a clinical diagnosis?" You've been very vocal in your work-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 5:03 Yes.

Mel Robbins 5:03 ...about saying this-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 5:03 Yes.

Mel Robbins 5:03 ...is a personality style.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 5:05 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 5:05 And that people on the internet are diagnosing other people-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 5:09 Correct.

Mel Robbins 5:09 ...with narcissism.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 5:10 Correct. Correct.

Mel Robbins 5:11 And the other thing to keep in mind is that the second that you click on a TikTok video or an Instagram reel that is about narcissism, you're gonna see more of it. What you're here to say is that this is a personality style.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 5:23 Yep.

Mel Robbins 5:23 And that it is critical that you recognize the signs of it-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 5:27 Yep.

Mel Robbins 5:27 ...because it is a personality style that is maladaptive-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 5:30 Yep.

Mel Robbins 5:30 ...that hurts other people. And I learned that in the first episode we did with you-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 5:34 Good.

Mel Robbins 5:34 ...that we will link

Mel Robbins 5:35 to this one. Is it best to leave my narcissistic husband or stay for the sake of my children?"My 7-year-old is terrified of my husband when he rages. I don't think it's best for me to remain, but I'm wondering if I should wait until they are older or grown to leave."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 5:50 This is s- this i- this right here is the question of all survivors who are in a situation like this. Rageful narcissist, likely not a good parent, child is scared of them, but then there is that big thing called family court. And the one thing the narcissistic person knows well is how to punish you. Now once they figure out that messing with custody is going to destroy your soul, they're going all in. And most judges in this country will award 50% to the other parent if they ask for it, which is a lot of time spent away from the parent who's the healthier parent. And this is what people grapple with, and here's what's so challenging now, and this is one of those cases where I'm not gonna be able to give a good answer, because you're at the crossroads where you either get the divorce, deal with the custody set-up, know that there's times your child is alone with that parent that they're scared of, okay, or you stick it out. Some parents get solace from knowing they're present, so at least they can run interference for that child with this toxic parent. They might wait until the child that feels like more able to sort of autonomously make needs known. There is no right answer here. Some of this is gonna come down to money, f- you know, um, are you gonna be able to secure housing for y- you and your child and, or children the way you want? Getting access to mental health for that child while, before, before you ever make a decision on a divorce is crucial, 'cause I can promise you this: once that marriage splits and you don't make the proper stipulations in the parenting agreement, that parent will stop therapy. I see this happen over and over again. They insist on two-party consent for things like mental health services, and then the narcissistic parent won't sign. It's back to court, back to court, back to court. So get that child into therapy while you only need the signature of one parent because you're both still married. Get your ducks in line. Talk to a divorce attorney. Pay whatever they charge for an hour, go in there prepared, tax returns, whatever you need, and ask them, "What am I looking at? What are the laws of this state?" 'Cause they're different in every state. "What am I looking at with custody? What am I looking at with money?" J- I, I think the problem is, is that too many people don't go into this conversation prepared. Marriage is a legal contract. Make no mistake, people read their rental car contracts more carefully than they understand exactly what the hell they're getting into when they marry someone. And so figure this out. Even if you're not gonna get divorced for 10 years, getting that clear feedback from a divorce attorney makes a huge difference in your decision-making. When I read a message like this, this is the first time somebody vocalizes that they're considering leaving, I know that they're on their way out. It may take five years, it may take eight years. They might even wait 'til that child's 18th birthday, which I cannot tell you how many people I know waited 'til midnight on their child's 18th birthday, and then they started the process. By that next day, they had filed for divorce. No custody involved.

Mel Robbins 8:53 I have to be honest with you. I really wish you were gonna say, "Get out now."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 8:56 No. Never.

Mel Robbins 8:57 Because-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 8:58 Never.

Mel Robbins 8:58 ... I, I, I know, I'm just being honest, because I, you want a clear-cut-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:04 I know.

Mel Robbins 9:04 ... answer.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:04 And there's not one. There's n- the systems don't allow it, Mel. Family court is one of the most abusive systems in this country. There are people involved in Court Reform, the stuff they bring to me, I'm thinking, "This is not in the best interest of the child." If you get unlucky with a judge, you're screwed.

Mel Robbins 9:20 Well, and also, I think all of us have some friend or family member that is watching a divorce play out a decade later-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:28 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 9:29 ... constantly going back into court-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:30 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 9:30 ... because it's a way for somebody-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:32 Yep.

Mel Robbins 9:32 ... with a narcissistic personality style-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:34 To continue punishing.

Mel Robbins 9:35 ... to continue punishing and being in control.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:37 Yeah. It's called post-separation abuse. It's a formal thing. But I will say this-

Mel Robbins 9:40 Post-separation abuse.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:41 ... post-sepa- sehrbate, they keep going and going and going, but I will say this, and something I tell many, many parents, a mistake they make. I think too many people are like, "I am gonna fight for my child no matter what."

Mel Robbins 9:53 (laughs) .

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:53 And the narcissistic person grabs onto that, and like, "Oh, is that your weak point?" But if you... I, I remember once coaching a woman, and she wanted to play this whole mother lioness thing. I'm like, "Slow it down." And instead, when she was a- they were having one of these many hearings they'd go through, she said, "You know, I'm, I, I, this, this will..." It, and she was dying inside at the agreement that was coming down the pike. And she said, "Okay, that's great. I, you know what? Actually, these alternate weekends, this is gonna work great for me, because there are so many friends I've been wanting to connect with, and I've been, you know, I've been wanting to get back into some of this, you know, the hiking and climbing I was doing. This is g- actually, I'm gonna really use the weekends well." You know that fool, he's like, "Um, what? Yeah, no. No, don't think you're just gonna, no, no, no, wait, wait." And so when she, when it got framed as, "No, that's t-" she was totally c- cool-headed. You know, she said, "Totally fine, get it, I'm actually, this, this is great. I mean, it's good to know this, because, you know, I've been wanting to do this stuff and pursue this, and you know, so I'll be using that time well, and I'm sure the kids will love spending time with you." And by the time the whole thing was done, 80/20, instead of the 50/50.

Mel Robbins 11:00 Well, you are just hammering one message, strategy, strategy, strategy. Acceptance-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 11:07 Everything.

Mel Robbins 11:08 ... of what it is, you're never changing this.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 11:10 Nope.

Mel Robbins 11:10 It's only gonna get worse.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 11:12 Nope.

Mel Robbins 11:12 You gotta accept it, you gotta be strategic. "How do

Mel Robbins 11:14 you deal with a narcissist who won't accept your boundaries? My mom is a narcissist, and whenever I try to set a boundary, she will act receptive or understanding at first, then an hour or two later, she will change her mind, reject my boundary request. Unfortunately, the minute you disagree with her or upset her, she tries to, quote, 'punish you' by cutting you out of her life."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 11:34 Right, so setting boundaries with narcissistic people is akin to hugging a porcupine.

Mel Robbins 11:39 (laughs)

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 11:39 It's really (laughs) a bad idea, and it's a fool's errand, right? I'm tired of people giving guidance to people, like, "Set boundaries."

Mel Robbins 11:46 Wait, wh- aren't we supposed to?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 11:48 Not with narcissists. You can set 'em with everybody else, but this is a pointless endeavor, and all it does is create more friction and this kind of drama this person's having.... with their mother who is silent treatmening, and being sullen, and all these other things. So when... This idea of setting boundaries with a narcissistic person, I always say it's an inside job, and where you're, they are... If you say to them, "I don't want you to talk about this. I don't want you to come this," you are basically inviting them to do that thing, 'cause they know they can mess with you. All right? So unless you want to spend the remainder of your time on this planet getting into a power struggle with them, which I just said you cannot win, your better bet is to set an internal boundary, which is, "I now know that these topics are off limits. I know that if I invite this person to this event, this is gonna happen, so I'm gonna have to figure out an alternative. I know if I make a reservation with them for dinner, they're gonna show up 25 minutes late, so I need to make a reservation at that place that seats us when we're not yet a complete party." Some people say, "Well, you're enabling the narcissist." You're actually not, because there's no setting a boundary with them, and you want to have the dinner, and you may have to invite them, but at least you all can start eating. And when they come in and say, "How dare you start with us? We said that, we said to come at 7:00. You didn't come at 7:00. They seated us. We started eating," you set a boundary.

Mel Robbins 13:13 I love that distinction, because you're right. When you say, "I'm gonna set a boundary" with somebody who's narcissistic, it implies that you're gonna tell them about it.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 13:21 Yeah, no.

Mel Robbins 13:21 Versus you're just saying, "Just-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 13:23 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 13:24 ... understand the situation for what it is. Understand the person is not changing. Recognize the patterns, and set sort of this boundary with yourself."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 13:34 Correct.

Mel Robbins 13:34 Like, for me, the one that I have in my life with a particular person is, it's a three-night limit.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 13:40 That's right. That's exactly-

Mel Robbins 13:41 Because by day four, this person gets prickly.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 13:44 So you, Mel, you would never say to that person, "We have a three-night limit."

Mel Robbins 13:49 No!

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 13:50 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 13:50 That's why-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 13:50 Oh, my God, no.

Mel Robbins 13:51 But that would be... This, but that, what a lot of people say, well, like, if a person is saying things that offend you, you need to say, "That thing you're saying is offending me." Tiger's cage. Try that with a narcissist. Call me up. Let me know how that works out for you. Yeah, and like, I also don't set the boundaries that are like, "I don't talk about politics with you."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:10 Correct.

Mel Robbins 14:10 Because you're an absolutely irrational freak-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:13 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 14:13 ... that then dominates the conversation-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:15 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 14:15 ... if anybody asks a question or tries to offer a different point of view.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:21 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 14:21 I set a boundary with myself. I get up from the table. I don't engage.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:25 That's right, that you don't engage.

Mel Robbins 14:25 Because I know exactly what's about to happen.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:27 That's exactly right.

Mel Robbins 14:28 I have no hope of it being different.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:29 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 14:29 I have accepted it.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:30 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 14:31 I set the boundary. I don't engage in this stuff. I remove myself.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:34 That's a boundary, not what this, this poor person, unfortunately, is trying to do the impossible with the mother, and will be forever disappointed.

Mel Robbins 14:40 Right. 'Cause if you go, "Mom, let's not talk about politics." (in a whiny voice) "What? You don't wanna talk about politics 'cause you don't like that?" Yeah, we all know how that goes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:46 Yep.

Mel Robbins 14:47 Got it. Internal boundaries only, everybody.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:49 I say boundaries are an inside game.

Mel Robbins 14:51 I love that. Ooh. My child-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:55 Hmm?

Mel Robbins 14:55 ... is a narcissist.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:57 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 14:58 Teenager.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:59 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 14:59 How can I help them?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 15:00 Okay. So let, first of all, let's always slow our roll when we're using the word narcissism and teenager, okay?

Mel Robbins 15:05 Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 15:06 By definition, adolescence is a phase of life where the child is going through something called separation and individuation. Adolescents are tough, right? They are mean to their parents, and often quite lovely with their peers, and there's a reason for that. The separation/individuation process means that the peers are more of a meaningful social referent point. So they'll actually be lovely with their peers, listen to their problems, pick them up late at night, bring them soup when they're sick, and scream at you if you even dare mention emptying the dishwasher. And there's a, there's a common sort of therapist talk is that an adolescent is often going through a phase we call shitting the nest.

Mel Robbins 15:44 Shitting the nest?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 15:44 Shitting the nest.

Mel Robbins 15:45 (laughs)

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 15:45 And if they shit the nest, then it's a lot easier for everyone to say, "Get out," and for the kid to leave like, "This is gross. I don't wanna be here." So all that mean behavior is sometimes part and parcel of shitting the nest. So we have to be able to figure out if it's that. Narcissism is a story that can be told beautifully backwards, but it's very difficult to tell forwards and in real time with an adolescent. For example, what I mean is, show me a 35-year-old narcissist, and I will show you someone who was horrible as a teenager. Show me someone who was horrible as a teenager, I don't know if they're going to be narcissistic when they're 35. Really, the frontal lobes are continuing to develop. A lot of that kind of lack of social awareness, impulsivity, all that's sitting up here. That part does not fully cement and set until around 25, 26, 27 years old. Adolescence really, if you wanna look at it developmentally, doesn't matter that they can drive and vote and, and buy alcohol. It really is, it goes until about 25, 26. That's when adulthood starts. So I would say to people who have narcissistic adolescents, white knuckle, white knuckle this a bit. Have whatever limits you need in your household. Be realistic about them. Remember the concept of shitting the nest, and put a pin in it for about eight years, and then revisit.

Mel Robbins 17:00 So let's just kind of unpack this a little bit, because I'm sure there's a ton of you that are listening right now that are like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. But what if I am seeing narcissistic traits?"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:12 Yeah, you probably are.

Mel Robbins 17:13 Because one of the things that you have... Okay, well, let me just stop right there, 'cause you just said you probably are.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:18 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 17:18 What you're saying is that the very natural, normal, and mentally healthy process of a teenager separating from their parents is for them to become more egotistical-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:32 Correct.

Mel Robbins 17:32 ... more demonstrative, more selfish, and to prioritize-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:35 More entitled.

Mel Robbins 17:36 Entitled. However, if you are seeing that, and you are concerned, and maybe you're concerned because you're in a family system where grandparents are narcissistic-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:48 Sure.

Mel Robbins 17:48 ... or you have an ex who is narcissistic, so you do have some concern. Is there something that you can model that helps to keep somebody on a...... adaptive personality track versus spinning into more of a maladaptive? Or are you basically saying there's really not much you can do but white-knuckle yourself or...

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 18:08 If you wanna be sure...

Mel Robbins 18:09 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 18:10 ... figure out how your kids are behaving with their peers.

Mel Robbins 18:12 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 18:12 Because if they have healthy peer relationships that seem reciprocal, that seem mutual, that they- they, you know, that they're... I mean, it's harder as they get to adolescence on how they're getting along with their teachers, but they are still minors, so you can get those answers. If other adults are having good experience, if you're- if you're a friend with a parent that, um, of a kid that they hang out with and that parent's like, "Your kid's great," like, then this is definitely the adolescent nonsense of shitting the nest, right? Because they're able to show up as solid people...

Mel Robbins 18:41 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 18:42 ... for other people. If, however, they're behaving horribly across the board, mistreating peers, having problems in school, then you're much more likely to be dealing with narcissism. Does that make sense?

Mel Robbins 18:52 That makes a lot of sense.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 18:53 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 18:53 And is there anything, if you're seeing that, that you can do? Or is this already just a bed that's made?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 19:01 It's a t- it's a tough one at that point. I think that it is... Not getting into a power struggle with them becomes crucial because if indeed you've got this difficult, across the board, difficult with the teachers, difficult with you, difficult with peers kind of kid, difficult in their, you know, their part-time job, whatever, you getting into a power struggle with them, you're going to lose it. You're- you're not gonna win because no one can win a power struggle with someone who's narcissistic. And with an adolescent, that's going to be even more amped up 'cause they don't feel a sense of power because they're still living at y- you know, sort of at your, in your good graces and all of that. So don't get into a power struggle, okay? Don't... Basically, don't let the dishwasher be the hill you die on because it's really not worth it, right? But it's... Because where narcissism is in adolescence, other bad behaviors are also likely to hang out, including things like, um, substance use. And so what you really do wanna watch for is actually keep more of an eye on is your kid safe? How is their mental health functioning in other areas? Um, if you are able to encourage therapy, that kid's probably gonna say no. It's worth a shot. Definitely figure out what it is that does speak to them-

Mel Robbins 20:10 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 20:10 ... and cultivate their interest in that because if there's something that they like, maybe it's music, maybe it's a form of sport, maybe... Whatever it is, show some interest in what they do. Because we can get so caught up in the power struggle of, "You're gonna empty the dishwasher if it's the last thing you do," versus, "Who is this kind of difficult kid of mine?" But we get so caught up in the difficulty of it all-

Mel Robbins 20:30 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 20:30 ... we don't- we don't pay attention to, like, what are they like? So you might see them playing a video game, right? Instead of like, "Ah, these kids and their video games," it's, "You never empty the dishwasher. All you do is play the video games." It's like, "What's this game about? Like, what, w- t- talk to me about... I'm just curious." Now, you probably get a lot of, "Mm, mm." But you never know.

Mel Robbins 20:48 Well, I think it gets in there.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 20:50 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 20:50 I think you pull a chair up and you just sit next to them, and you just sit by them while they're playing the video game, and even just doing that shows a level of interest.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 21:00 Yep.

Mel Robbins 21:00 And so I love that advice. Is there any way for a narcissist to find true love with

Mel Robbins 21:06 a partner?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 21:07 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 21:07 I mean, like a personality type that a narcissist could be with where both people are happy.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 21:13 So now we get into philosophy, right? What is love? Is there a universal definition? And the problem is, no, there's not. I think probably the most powerful thing people could do by their third date, I wish... You know how you go to the doctor, they make you sign the informed consent?

Mel Robbins 21:28 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 21:28 I wish we had that for love. Say, put your piece of paper in front of someone, "This is my definition of love." Because their definition of love is very transactional. It's, it... And they're not aware of what's their definition of love. Their definition of love is basically, "I'm going to swallow you up whole. You're going to be for me." It's a very romantic, passionate definition of love. What they're not good at is long-term companionate love. So this idea of true love, right? With all the depth that's implied, the mutuality, the reciprocity, the better or worse, the, um, the standing at someone's side even when they get older, or need care, or need help, or, you know, who are more... Starting to get more successful than you, all the things that would throw a narcissistic person off. I would say the short answer to that question is probably not, on the basis of what we consider healthy love to be. Theirs is a much, much more shallow, shallow definition. For them, love is very romantic, very passionate, very flash-in-the-pan, very crush. That's what it is. It's not the deep, deep stuff. And-

Mel Robbins 22:35 It's not give and take is what I've learned from you.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 22:37 It's def- it's not only not give and take, it's not good times and bad. It's- it's... And it's also very status conscious and appearance conscious. This is why you see, again, when a- when a person who has been through a 30-year marriage with kids then trades in for a 27-year-old partner and they're 60, what exactly are they talking- are they talking about? If y'all didn't watch the same shows in high school, you got nothing to talk about.

Mel Robbins 23:03 You know, based on everything that you've taught us and that I've learned from your work, when I read between the lines of this question, which I probably shouldn't-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 23:12 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 23:12 ... "Is there any way for a narcissist to find true love?" I imagine somebody who is holding out hope....that there could be a possibility.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 23:23 Or fear.

Mel Robbins 23:24 Or fear.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 23:25 That the narcissist will go on and find true love with someone new, 'cause that's the big fear of people who are left. So the narcissistic person l- you're with someone, right?

Mel Robbins 23:33 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 23:34 Narcissistic person leaves. They find new supply right away.

Mel Robbins 23:36 Immediately.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 23:37 Right? Okay. And you're, of course, going through a real grief process, so you're struggling with it. The big fear is, now they found their new person, are they going to change for the new person? Are they going to be better for the new person? Are they going to find true love with the new person? That's how I read that question.

Mel Robbins 23:52 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 23:52 And the answer to that's no. I watched someone go through this a couple years ago, had a very up and down narcissistic relationship with someone, went on for years, yada, yada, ya. And then they break up, and inside of a few months, he meets someone new, soulmate, soulmate, soulmate, you know, which for me, bing, bing, bing (fingers snapping) , alarm signs. And they get engaged in, like, two months.

Mel Robbins 24:11 (exhales)

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 24:11 Right? And the, the person was still struggling, like, was having trouble meeting people and, you know, was just sort of in a dark night of the soul. And this person seems like they moved on, uh, but... And it was of little solace to this person who was sort of left that this is not an- there's no depth. This is all performative. For narcissistic people, love is performative, and this is where the social media has changed things, right? Because the performative love relationship is very much a staple of Instagram. "Look how happy we are. Look how cute we are. We're van lifing. We're traveling. We're so great in love. My lovey bear lovey, never in my life could there be a hero like you. You are my love hero." And then these fools break up in three months. Nobody goes from love hero to broken up. Like, this whole thing was a lie. So it, again, every therapist knows, the more they gush about their relationship on social media, the more it's a train wreck. And so it's performative.

Mel Robbins 25:11 Mm. Dr.

Mel Robbins 25:13 Ramani, "How do I deal with a narcissistic adult son who uses our grandchildren-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 25:19 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 25:19 ...as leverage for the silent treatment, blame, and manipulation?"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 25:23 Mm-hmm. So this is a very common dynamic, and I'm so glad someone's asking about this. So you have a narcissistic adult child, fully grown obviously, has, you know, got into a relationship, has kids, all of that, right? The grandchildren become the greatest leverage of all leverage on the planet, and this is devastating for parents who... and on, on multiple levels. Number one, because it's, narcissism is a developmental state, many parents will say, "What did I do wrong?"

Mel Robbins 25:52 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 25:53 "Am I partly responsible for this?" And it's particularly devastating if you did co-parent that child with a narcissist, and you did your very best. You might have even been that co-parent who actually protected your kid but couldn't get out of the relationship, or they were having to spend time with the narcissistic co-parent. Whatever it may be that you did what you could, but you could not, you know, you could not outrun this thing, right? So that can be even more devastating. So there's a sense of complicity that parents feel that you don't see in any other form of sort of narcissistic relationship, number one. Then they have kids, and you love those grandchildren in, uh, you know, all the ways grandparents might love grandchildren or often do. And now your narcissistic son recognizes that they've basically got you over a barrel. It's the ultimate tool of manipulation. Nar, uh, with narcissistic people, the, the, the s- the struggle is, is that it's very easy to create the monster by giving into them, right?

Mel Robbins 26:52 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 26:53 They get, they get used to it. And what we do is we have to ask ourselves, from a radical acceptance standpoint... In fact, something I talk about in the book is something called a person's true north, right? That your true north is... How I always tell people, "Don't engage with the narcissist. It's gonna get you nowhere." Simple answer is disengage, disengage, disengage, right? But the concept of your true north is the one time you will take the fight, right? Whatever that might be. It might mean the workaround you'll do. It might be the argument you might have. It might be the tiger's cage you're willing to go into, because it might be about, you might be willing to take the fight for your kid or your grandkid. You might be willing to take the fight because somebody is saying something that's so noxious to you. It's, it's racist or some form of bias or something like that. In this particular case, this grandparent has to assess the true north of their grandchildren, because the fact is, odds are that it's basically an extortionate setup, right?

Mel Robbins 27:44 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 27:44 To see the grandchildren, they have to do the dance dictated by their son. And so the radical acceptance may very well be that there are times they may not always get to see these grandchildren and the grief that goes with that. It's figuring out the true north. Maybe the birthday party is your everything, so that might mean... It's almost like a negotiation. You're gonna give in on certain things with this son, if there was something you can do, so you can be at the, the true north of the birthday party or the graduation or having, having them, wh- you know, going on the vacation with them or not. So you have to... It becomes a constant calibration to, "Where do I wanna see these kids? Where am I willing to relent?" Because he's forever going to have you over a barrel. So it's also, if this person does, they fully radically accept their son's behavior. They may still be trying to change their son's behavior.

Mel Robbins 28:34 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 28:34 They may have hope for change. You're gonna have to eradicate that. In many ways, their son has been brought down to nothing more than the portal to those grandchildren. So instead of putting behavioral standards on the son, who is narcissistic, they have to figure out what the ritualistic dance they need to do is to go through the portal to see the grandkids.

Mel Robbins 28:53 (smacks lips) Gotcha. And so the radical acceptance there is really just understanding, this is what it is.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 28:59 This is what it is. That's it.

Mel Robbins 29:00 And I can hate the dance I have to do. I can hate the kind of hoops I have to jump through.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 29:07 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 29:08 But it's more important to me-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 29:09 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 29:10 ... because I value a relationship with these grandkids, and I understand this is the access point.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 29:14 Right. And it could very well be, we don't know this 'cause they didn't make it clear in the question, they may be talking to their son as though they think he's listening to them like a normal person would.

Mel Robbins 29:23 Hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 29:23 A mistake a lot of people make with narcissistic people is they- they actually try to appeal to some sensitivity in them. Like, "We love your children so much. We would do anything for them. Like, we... Blah, blah, blah. Save you the money on the babysitter. Blah, blah, blah. We'll do anything. And so, you, you know, pl- do you, can't you see how much we care about them? Da-da-da-da-da. We've made trust fund..." Whatever the hell it is that people are saying about the grandkids. They're not listening. You're not, you know... They're not going to pay attention. All they see is that I have got the ultimate tool here to get what I need from these people. If you have an adult narcissistic child, if I can only s- you know, sort of issue sort of one warning, make sure your finances are in order and safe. Because an adult narcissistic child, it is not unusual for them- for them to prey on older parents, try to get their names on the note of a house, try to get g- power of attorney in a way they're gonna abuse. Make sure that if you do have stuff to hand down, you work with a good attorney in a way that you h- it's hard to think of this way about your own child, but Mel, if I could tell you some of the stories I've seen with the way adult narcissistic children have completely plowed through their parents' money and really put their parents in a precarious spot. I'm not saying that's the case in this one, but you've got to be careful of all these angles. And if this son, for example, is at all trying to get into the family's money, in some ways this almost becomes a pay-to-play.

Mel Robbins 30:52 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 30:52 Whatever you're paying to do, you know, to play, you've gotta be aware of that.

Mel Robbins 30:56 Well, I think if somebody's willing to use-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 30:58 Kids.

Mel Robbins 30:58 ... innocent kids-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 30:59 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 30:59 ... as human capital to manipulate-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 31:01 Yep.

Mel Robbins 31:01 ... adults to get what you want-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 31:03 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 31:04 ... that seems a lot more egregious than manipulating them to get your money.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 31:08 You better believe it. Yep.

Mel Robbins 31:09 You know, I've seen this question a lot in the form of, how do I deal with the fact that my adult child is now married to-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 31:19 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 31:19 ... or engaged to somebody who's narcissistic?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 31:21 Mm, mm, mm, mm, mm.

Mel Robbins 31:22 And that new partner is turning them against us?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 31:28 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 31:29 And this feels like it's similar, but how do you counsel parents that recognize that this is actually what's happening? We had a great relationship with our-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 31:42 Yeah. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 31:42 ... adult child, now they're in a relationship with-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 31:44 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 31:44 ... somebody else. It feels like that person is turning our child against them.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 31:50 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 31:52 How do you counsel somebody in that situation? Is it the same thing?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 31:55 It- it's... No, it's different, right? Because in the case of the narcissistic son, the- they are sort of a direct line to the son, right? They've known the son his whole life, you know, who knows what historically has happened. They may, you know, it may very well be that they're like, "Yeah, we dropped the ball when he was little, and now we're- we've been trying to make amends ever since. And now that he's got kids and we want access to the kids, we..." Actually, in some ways, it's like, it's the spoiled child phenomenon. They're doing anything the son wants. That's their own kid.

Mel Robbins 32:20 Hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 32:20 Now, if you have a kid that's yours and you have a great relationship with them into adulthood, your kid is not narcissistic, right?

Mel Robbins 32:27 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 32:27 But they meet someone-

Mel Robbins 32:28 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 32:29 ... narcissistic, that's a very different situation because you know your kid has the apparatus, the solid apparatus of- of goodness, whatever that... You know, at least to be a- a- have a mutual and reciprocal relationship with you. So the- the big mistake people will say, especially when your per- your child is in love with someone and is about to get married and is in sort of the, you know, th- that sort of bliss-y state that you say, "I'm worried that they're narcissistic," is the biggest mistake you could make. You never want to do that. You want to... You want to try to illuminate the patterns without saying, like, "What he said was toxic," or, "That wasn't okay," or... But rather, dropping in the lines in the water that's... Like, things like, "Hey, you okay? Like, we're- we're not hearing from you as much. Is everything okay now?" You might hear them say, like, "Gosh, what's wrong with you? Like, I have my own life now."

Mel Robbins 33:21 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 33:21 Say, "No, no, no, I hear that." Like, "I just... I- I completely understand." Like, you wanna... You wanna keep feeling it out, feeling it out. There's actually... We can take a page out of the playbook of what happens to people when family members recognize a fam- a- one of their... For a ch- a child or family member's in a cult. Dr. Lija Lalic, she- she talks about doing something called breaking the shelf.

Mel Robbins 33:43 Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 33:43 And what she means is that when you have a family member who goes into a cult, you can't say, "Yo, you're in a cult."

Mel Robbins 33:50 (laughs)

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 33:50 (laughs) 'Cause they're gonna say, "No, I'm not. This is my group of healing friends that want to self-develop together," right? And they're gonna say, "They told me you would say this. I knew it. To hell with you." And the cult's gonna want them to cut that parent off, bruh.

Mel Robbins 34:03 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:04 So what she says is, you- you need to do is you wanna break the shelf. And what that means is remind them of the life they had before the cult. So it's gentle conversations, like, "Oh my gosh, you're not gonna believe this. Remember how you loved to surf? You know, I was... It's so weird. I was just driving down that, you know, the old street- that street and, you know, he- he made this- the surfboard shop so much bigger." Like, "How- how are you doing? Like, how's the surfing going?" You're planting, like, "You're not surfing anymore, are you?" kind of thing.

Mel Robbins 34:31 Hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:31 You're not saying that in as many words. Or s-

Mel Robbins 34:34 "I saw all your friends from high school-"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:36 You know, "I saw all your friends from high school."

Mel Robbins 34:36 "... and they were all home and they were asking about you."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:38 Yep, yep, yep, yep. Or, you know, it's, um, you- you know, "I... We were- we're getting ready for..." whatever, the ski trip and what... You're just reminding them. Like, "I remember how much you wanted to write. Like, how's that going? Like, have you been writing more?" Or whatever you're writing. But you're trying to bring them back to themselves. And sometimes... So we know you're not even talking about the partner, you're talking about the them who is likely getting lost in this relationship. You might have a better chance of doing what Dr. Lalic calls breaking the shelf and being... Letting them then be able to start to see like, "Oh, okay, something's changing." It's not always a sure thing, but the... You know, ideally you can then say... You know, especially if you notice... Let's say you notice a difficult interaction.You might, instead of saying, "That wasn't okay," you might wanna say, "Hey, are you okay? I just saw that. I just wanted to check in."

Mel Robbins 35:28 That's great, 'cause then you get the wheels turning.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:31 Yeah. That's all you wanna do is turn the wheels. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 35:33 Got it. Okay, this is a really

Mel Robbins 35:36 juicy question.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:38 I love a juicy question.

Mel Robbins 35:39 I love this one, okay, even though it's really, like, not... okay, it's sad. (laughs)

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:44 Not, not... yeah.

Mel Robbins 35:45 Um, "Dr. Ramani, my dad is a perverted narcissist," I don't know what that means, but is a perverted narcissist, "and has psychopathic traits. He has met a woman he is very interested in. This woman is in a higher tax bracket than him and has never married, and he has her wrapped around his finger. He's presented a version of himself to her that is not real, and he's using the same methods he used on my mom."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 36:15 Mm.

Mel Robbins 36:15 "I feel like I can't let her get sucked into his lies, but is it my position to do so? It irks me so badly to see the mask he presents, and it upsets me that it took her less than a month to fall for his performance."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 36:33 D- did this person call their father a psychopath?

Mel Robbins 36:36 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 36:36 Okay, so let's, let's use this question as a jumping-off point on the difference between narcissism and psychopathy, right?

Mel Robbins 36:42 Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 36:42 I don't know if this person's father is psychopathic. We're just gonna go on good faith they believe they are. There's a difference, okay? Even the most malignant narcissist is not going to be psychopathic. When we jump the rails into psychopathy, we're talking about someone who i- based on what she's saying this person's saying their dad's doing, it may very well be the case. A psychopathic person is cold, callous, calculating, deceitful, lacks any empathy, lacks remorse, is often superficially charming, can be very intelligent, has an incredible capacity for running a hustle. These are y- these are your grifters, okay?

Mel Robbins 37:22 Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 37:22 These are people who are able to create very, very elaborate lies, live double lives, live parasitic lifestyles, go and destroy one person's life, move someplace else, and leave no sort of, no trace of any of that, right?

Mel Robbins 37:37 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 37:38 Drawing someone into a new relationship very quickly where that person's falling under their control is very classically something that a psychopath is able to do. Because psychopathic people lack remorse, they can do far more harm to another person. In addition, psychopathic people don't have the insecurity and the anxiety we classically see in narcissism. Narcissism is still a, sort of a little bit more of a chaotic interior. Psychopathic people are just cold and callous. And so that seems to be what might be the case here. Now the, the way she's describing it, that this person was able to trick another person within a month, that's very classically, you know, either... yeah, it's more psychopathic than it is malignant narcissistic. And the question is, do you warn? And many psychopathic people can be dangerous, Mel.

Mel Robbins 38:27 Hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 38:28 So I'd wanna make sure this person is safe. I mean, listen, I don't know if you've ever remembered the story, the y- the really popular podcast from way back of, um, Dirty John, right? Dirty John was a guy who the same kind of grift, and it, it, it culminated quite tragically. He almost killed the, the woman he had, you know, twisted around. He almost killed her daughter, okay?

Mel Robbins 38:49 Wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 38:49 That's why I'm saying that these people are dangerous and, um... because if anyone gets in the way of their grift, of their hustle, they will eradicate them. So assuming this woman is safe, okay, so I'm just gonna-

Mel Robbins 39:02 Okay, gigantic caveat, you are safe.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 39:04 ... put that out there, assume she is safe, okay? I don't think the new woman's gonna believe her. A month in is very, very fresh. It is... this person is fully indoctrinated, being heavily love-bombed, right? They're not going to believe this. So they're going to view the daughter... and the, the psychopath has already gotten to the new partner and told the new partner, "My daughter is jealous. I think she's kinda weirdly in love with me." He has crafted a whole story about the daughter that makes the d- I, I think this is a woman writing this question.

Mel Robbins 39:33 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 39:34 Okay, so that makes the daughter look insane, all right? So when the daughter goes to new partner and says this, the odds are that the psychopathic father has already done his homework.

Mel Robbins 39:45 This is a hard thing though, because if you value the truth, and if-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 39:50 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 39:50 ... I take to heart everything that you taught us in the previous two episodes that we've done with you recently about the fact that part of the, the biggest barriers to your own healing-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:02 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 40:02 ... from somebody like this is a sense of hope-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:04 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 40:05 ... that it's gonna change, and the feeling of injustice.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:08 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 40:09 And to me, I would really wrestle with the fact that based on my values-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:15 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 40:15 ... I'd wanna be like, "Get, get rid of this motherfucker." Like, he's like, yeah, he's bad news.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:19 But she can.

Mel Robbins 40:19 But on the other hand, how?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:21 But she can, she can go up to her and say, "I want you to know this. I don't know what he's told you." Ideally show up with documentation. "This is who he really is. This is who he's really about." Then she's done her God's work of the day.

Mel Robbins 40:37 Yep.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:38 And when this new person doesn't believe it, then that's no longer her problem.

Mel Robbins 40:42 Got it. And as long as you can do that...

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:45 Safely.

Mel Robbins 40:45 Safely, and that is something that you feel like doing, whether it's 'cause you feel the need to get justice served on behalf of you and your mom or not is irrelevant.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:55 You might just honestly wanna protect the new person.

Mel Robbins 40:57 Yeah? Okay. Gosh, wow. This is a sad topic.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 41:00 It's a very sad topic.

Mel Robbins 41:02 How do you keep from getting, like, beaten down by this?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 41:06 It, it's, it's... I mean, it's a funny question. I, I... it's not always easy. Like, I do actually get sad quite a bit, and I keep to myself. And I, I guess in some ways I live a very simple life, and I think there's a reason for that, because I think otherwise it's a lot. I don't trust people as much. I mean, it's kind of a sad, (laughs) sort of a sad thing.

Mel Robbins 41:24 That is sad, but I'm glad that you're putting it to use to help us, uh, actually-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 41:28 My pl- it's my pleasure.

Mel Robbins 41:29 It's-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 41:29 I, I, I find, I... The work is so... I've, I've seen people helped, and that is really, that, that really matters.

Mel Robbins 41:36 All right, I've got rapid fire

Mel Robbins 41:37 questions. "My aging mother is a narcissist and I'm the one who has to take care of her. How can I make this time bearable?"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 41:44 N- you have to keep orienting it to, to who you are. Many, many people will say, "I cannot believe now that it's all coming to a close and it's falling on my shoulders." But people have to, sometimes have to say, like, "No, I'm a compassionate person. This is an old person. I don't know what would happen to them otherwise." Make... Really put yourself into that role of, "I am showing up almost like a nurse of an abusive patient." They are, they're prepared, they're going to yell, they're gonna scream. Do not expect gratitude. It's going to be a nightmare. Have therapy, have supports, make sure you have meaningful pursuits outside of this caregiving. But you almost have to go into an automaton state, but also connect it to, "The human being I am is compassionate, good, and empathic. And this is an old person who needs to be cared for. I can't stand her, but I'll be damned if I let this woman leave me like I'm not a compassionate person."

Mel Robbins 42:38 Ooh, do it for yourself.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 42:40 Mm-hmm. Do it for yourself.

Mel Robbins 42:41 Uh, "My father is a narcissist. Have not talked to him in five years. I would like to reopen the door, but I'm terrified I'm gonna get hurt. How do I protect myself?"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 42:51 Well, he's going to hurt you. So the question is, if you're prepared for... So what you have to ask yourself, "What's your agenda after five years? What are you hoping for?"

Mel Robbins 42:59 Ooh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 43:00 If you think that in five years... Because what's happened to this person in five years, Mel? They've healed. Being away-

Mel Robbins 43:05 Or maybe not.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 43:06 Mm... Prob- I, I'll tell... Here's, there's two levels. There is the, the deeper soul healing that may have happened, right? But I want you to think of it as, somebody's had a massive surgery that was going to be difficult to, to heal from. And when they're in the midst of the acute, acuity of it, they're like, "I am never gonna be able to walk again." And then five years in, they're like, "I'm going, I'm running up the stairs." Right?

Mel Robbins 43:28 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 43:29 And so now she's running up the stairs. But what might still be happening is that internally there's still... Now, when you're running up the stairs again, euphoric recall, we forget what it's like. This is why this ick list becomes a living document that matters.

Mel Robbins 43:41 Remind everybody of the ick list.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 43:42 There is a list. The ick list is a list you make of all the terrible things that are being said and done in that relationship. Everything from, ruined my wedding, to, you know, to lie to me about who my parent was, to, when I asked for a loan that would've made a difference, didn't give it to me, and I'm still paying off the extortionate loan I got. To, insulted my children's weight. Like, write it all. Cheated on me with my best friend. Whatever's on your list, write it down. When you think possibility of changes, though, you need to look at that and say-

Mel Robbins 44:15 (laughs)

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 44:15 ... "Why would I even interact with this person?" But in this case, after five years, some people may say, "I know, I know this person's limitations," but do you really? Do you really rec- If this person is going to say hurtful things again. So you have to ask yourself, "If this person comes at me again, will I be able to withstand this, or will this take a toll on me?" That's a question only they can answer. Some work I tend to do in therapy with clients is, we play it out as a role play.

Mel Robbins 44:43 Dr. Ramani, compassionate. I'm like, "Don't be a dumb motherfucker." This guy has not changed at all, and you're walking into the tiger's cage. Please, please (laughs) .

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 44:53 (laughs) .

Mel Robbins 44:53 Caution, caution, caution. At least read Dr. Ramani's best-selling book, It's Not You. Listen to her podcast. Watch her YouTube channel. Your advice is transformative, and the message is clear.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 45:09 Thank you so much.

Mel Robbins 45:09 They are not changing, but you can. We love you.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 45:12 Thank you. Thank you so much, Mel.

Mel Robbins 45:13 You know, I kinda ended on a joke, but your message is actually really empowering. Because when you understand what you're dealing with, you can take the steps to protect yourself and still act aligned with your values. But you have to accept what you're dealing with, and give up hope that it's changing, and walk into it with that understanding. And one more thing before I leave. I wanna make sure that you hear from me in case nobody else tells you, 'cause if you're surrounded by narcissists, nobody has.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 45:47 (laughs) .

Mel Robbins 45:48 (laughs) That I believe in you. I know Dr. Ramani believes in you too. And I love you, and I believe in your ability to take everything you're learning and use it to empower yourself to create a better life. I'll talk to you in a few days. And I just wanna thank you for being here, and being with me on YouTube. I love you. I believe in you. And please, please, please, take a moment and subscribe to the channel. It's a way that you can really support me and support this show, and it helps me bring you new videos every single day. And by the way, listening to Dr. Ramani, she's amazing, right? Don't you want more of her? Don't you wanna dig into narcissism? I bet you do. So check out this episode next.