The Mel Robbins PodcastThe Exact Words You Need to Hear Today If It Feels Like Nothing’s Working
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
110 min read · 21,939 words- 0:00 – 1:40
Meet the Guest
- MNMark Nepo
(instrumental music plays) The most powerful thing we can do when feeling powerless is admit what is true. Because so often, I'm afraid of being lonely and I already am. I'm afraid things are gonna change. They've already changed. Fear wastes air.
- MRMel Robbins
That's the magic of my guest today, Mark Nepo. He's the number one New York Times best-selling author of the seminal work, The Book of Awakening, which has changed millions of people's lives, including mine and my husband, Chris. Can you talk a little bit about what Mark's work has meant to you in your life?
- CRChris Robbins
Hmm. Everything. (sniffs) Some of the gifts that you've offered me is just noticing that there's lots to listen to, not just outside, but inside.
- MNMark Nepo
What I wanna offer is that the difficulty of any moment is only half of reality. Life is more than anything we could dream of if we truly meet each other and meet ourselves right here, right now.
- MRMel Robbins
I have a feeling that the person listening is either before the wall of fire or watching somebody else in their life deeply struggling.
- CRChris Robbins
Uh, often the, the intent is to focus on one thing when really we're dealing with a kaleidoscope, and how do you actually try to take in, absorb all of that?
- MNMark Nepo
There's two ways that human beings will basically learn. One is by willfully shedding and the other is by being broken open. And if you don't willfully shed, don't worry, you'll be (laughs) broken open.
- 1:40 – 13:11
The Importance of Being Present
- MNMark Nepo
- MRMel Robbins
(instrumental music plays) Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Mark Nepo, it is an honor to welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
- MNMark Nepo
Well, it's an honor to be here. I so appreciate. You've all made me so welcome. I'm just so looking forward to being together.
- MRMel Robbins
Me too. And Chris Robbins, this is your debut in the Boston studios. Thank you for being here too.
- CRChris Robbins
Thanks for having me in.
- MRMel Robbins
So, Mark, I'd love to start by having you speak directly to the person who's here with us, who made the time to spend it together with you today, and me, and Chris, and to learn from you, and I'd love to have you just speak to them and share what they could experience in their life that could be different.
- MNMark Nepo
Yeah. So first, thank you for being here and taking time to gather like this. I think some of the things that, that are so important and available to everyone is that life is always where we are. I think one of the big menacing assumptions in the modern world is that life is other than where we are. It's over there. You know, the, the FOMO, fear of missing out. You know, th- there is no there. There's only here. And great love and great suffering are the great teachers of this. I think one of the things in our age right now, in our... is that so many people seem to have lost their direct connection to life. And it is, is so isolating, is so challenging. Um, my job, whether it's in writing or teaching, my calling is to open a heart space that we can enter together, and in that heart space, we start to discover that we're more together than alone.
- MRMel Robbins
I'm so happy you're here.
- MNMark Nepo
(laughs) Oh, me too.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, your work has had a profound impact on my life, on Chris's life, on our family's life, and I'm talking about The Book of Awakening, that I just have to say, Chris is the one who introduced your work to our family. And so, before, you know, we share some of our favorite passages, can you talk a little bit about how you discovered this book or what this book means to you or what Mark's work has meant to you in your life?
- CRChris Robbins
(inhales deeply) Hmm. Everything. (sniffs) This book came to me, uh, when my heart was not open. I had, um, gotten pretty heavy into meditation, was studying Buddhism, and somebody, we were talking about this concept of quieting the mind and meditation, and somebody said, "Oh, well, I just read one of these passages before I, before I drop in." And that was the be- that was sort of the beginning of me finding this book. And, um, you know, I think just looking back on what has been a decade plus of both reading and re-reading this, um, and sharing it profusely, um, it, it has been the source of my own awakening, if you will, and, um, and also, uh, just a reminder to your point about how we d- you know, nobody has the answers. I love what you said earlier-
- MNMark Nepo
Yeah.
- CRChris Robbins
... like, we're all just here comparing notes. And, uh, and this is a book that I give away in all of the men's work that I do.
- MNMark Nepo
Oh, thank you.
- CRChris Robbins
Um, it provides a light and a lens into, uh, uh, our own humanity, my own humanity.
- MNMark Nepo
Oh, thank you.
- CRChris Robbins
Thank you.
- MNMark Nepo
You're welcome. It means a lot.
- CRChris Robbins
Hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
I went through a large part of my life closed off and in my head, or detached, or disassociated, or anxious, or just like the doing and the climbing of the ladder, and the getting to the next thing, and go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. Disconnected from life itself, as you would say, in terms of this feel of it. Like, there was so much of the doing and the achieving-
- MNMark Nepo
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... and I just thought, "This is what life is."
- MNMark Nepo
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
This is... And that is a form of life. And too many people get to their deathbed and realize-
- MNMark Nepo
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... that there could have been a different way to experience life and a different way to slow down and really truly connect with what matters, and it's right there in front of you. And what I hope out of this conversation, because it's the thing that I've gotten out of your work, is this ability to wake up from autopilot, or from the feeling that you're in a relationship that feels like roommates, or that you are stuck, or resigned, or closed off, but you don't know how to access something else.
- MNMark Nepo
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
There is something else that is possible. If the person listening really resonates with that sense that I've lost the direct connection to life, or there's somebody in my life that I'm worried about who seems to have lost their direct connection to life. The spark's gone, they seem really stuck. You see the potential. You see the light. You're holding it out for them, but they don't see it. Or maybe the person listening doesn't feel it. What would you say to them, Mark?
- MNMark Nepo
You know, I think, I think two questions, non-judgmental questions that I find myself asking both loved ones and students and people I'm with, especially people who are struggling, is, "What's it like to be you right now?"
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- 13:11 – 19:05
How to Find Meaning in Hard Times
- CRChris Robbins
it's, it- it's given me the space and the presence of mind to even ask these questions of myself, or, I mean, uh, in the case of Mel and I, just doing it together with friends and with one another. It's ... Your, your story of that young man speaks volumes to that.
- MNMark Nepo
Oh, thank you. And this is the blessing, you know? Because for me, it's th- th- this is how I learn.
- MRMel Robbins
The Book of Awakening sits on both sides of our beds, because we do not wanna share a copy.
- MNMark Nepo
(laughs)
- CRChris Robbins
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
Although I am holding Chris's copy-
- CRChris Robbins
(laughs)
- MNMark Nepo
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... because I forgot to bring mine.
- MNMark Nepo
(laughs)
- CRChris Robbins
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
And so, I'm like, "Chris, bring yours!"
- CRChris Robbins
Ugh.
- MRMel Robbins
And it is a beautiful collection of daily reflections that were borne out of a very challenging time-
- MNMark Nepo
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... in your life when you were dealing with a cancer diagnosis. So can you talk a little bit about-
- MNMark Nepo
Sure.
- MRMel Robbins
... that period of your life and what was happening that led to this-
- MNMark Nepo
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... series of essays?
- MNMark Nepo
So when I was in my early 30s and, and, um, you know, I was, I was in, just finished graduate school, um, and I was, you know, I was a young poet who I- I hoped maybe, maybe if I worked really hard, I might write one or two poems that maybe would matter or be thought of as great, you know? And then, all of a sudden, I was, you know, I was stricken with a rare form of lymphoma and everything was upended and I was in the hospital and it was in, uh, my skull bone. It had grown to the size of a grapefruit. And then when someone told me I had cancer, I walked out that door and that was the first life-changing moment because the door I had come in by was no longer there. Life before that appointment, there was no way back.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- MNMark Nepo
And now I was in the new world. And now, in that moment, everything was difficult, fearful, and then I had to somehow ... You know, everyone, and this is the kinda common passage, everyone, that all the spiritual traditions talk about, everyone will be dropped into the depth of life at some point. And, and someti- ... And it, you know, a lot of times we talk about it because difficult, life-challenging things bring us there, but it's not just that. It's not, we're not deifying suffering. It's not just that. It could be wonder, it could be beauty, it could be-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- MNMark Nepo
... being loved unconditionally for the first time. You know, it could be all kinds of things. But it happened to be cancer for me. And so, in that journey, I had to, uh, drop under the pain, the fear, the worry. Again, not to run from it, but to acs- some- access something larger than me. And this is maybe the difference between effort and grace, you know? So that you ... The effort is to be ready so that when grace comes, you receive it. And, and you know, and we can talk about grace very simply ou- outside of religious connotations as the larger currents of life that w- we're always connected to, and if we're open to them, th- they will carry us. I'd never been through anything difficult, so I was terrified. I mean, every doctor or nurse I met, I said, "I'm Mark. Put me out." They thought Putmeout was my last name.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- CRChris Robbins
(laughs)
- MNMark Nepo
Yeah. (laughs) And, uh, and of course, I couldn't be put out, because this was my journey. They didn't, um ... In order to be ready in case I needed to go into surgery quickly, they couldn't give me anesthetic ahead of time so it wouldn't be used up, so I had to go through all these things pretty much awake, or with local or things. So, there I was being challenged to feel it all, to face it all. So I had my first chemo treatment. I went into a, uh, Holiday Inn with my former wife and dear, dear friend, uh, who we're still dear friends after all these years. And the only medicine they gave me was oral, so I started getting sick. This is, was after I had a rib removed in my back, so two weeks earlier. So I'm getting sick and throwing up every half hour, and feeling like, "It's gotta stop." And I was feeling afraid, in pain, not sure what's going on. And somehow, and this is what I mean about being ready for grace. All of a sudden, the sun's starting to come up and it ... Because I was open, and maybe open because of all the pain, exhausted-It occurred to me that somewhere nearby a baby's being born.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MNMark Nepo
And somewhere nearby a couple's making love for the first time. And somewhere further down the road, a, a father and a son who haven't spoken in years are finally sitting down and having coffee. And it was in that moment that I discovered that to be broken is no reason to see all things as broken. You know, I was raised Jewish, I have a great tie to the Jewish heritage, but through all this, I became a student of all paths, and that's informed all my books, all my teaching. And because then, and even all these years later, you know, I'm, uh... Because the tumor in my brain vanished, that was a miracle, the surgery
- 19:05 – 34:39
The Power of Staying Connected
- MNMark Nepo
removed the r- rib, that was a miracle. (laughs) Even the damn chemo was a miracle. So, I was not, and am still not wise enough to know what worked and what didn't.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MNMark Nepo
And I feel like I was challenged to believe in everything. And so I really see the, the common center of all formal and informal paths, the unique gifts of each, and, and how do we, how do we share them? How do we make use of them?
- MRMel Robbins
Well, what I love about this book so much is, first of all, I really appreciate the format, that there is an essay every day that you can read that takes you five minutes or less (laughs) , but that has you, as you say, drop into the depth of life. And I read a page, and I drop in, and feel very centered and connected to something larger, and I feel very present in the moment, and then I close it and feel very satisfied. And if I read it the next day, great. If I forget about it and I open it up a month later, great.
- MNMark Nepo
Sure.
- MRMel Robbins
There it is, like an old friend to greet me.
- MNMark Nepo
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And I would love, Mark, to have you read one of your favorite essays-
- MNMark Nepo
Oh.
- MRMel Robbins
... to give the person a sense.
- MNMark Nepo
So yeah, so this is one of my favorite passages. It's June 6th, and it, it's called Two Monkeys Sleeping. "We wandered into a corner of the Central Park Zoo, and there, despite the dozens of tourists pointing and tapping the glass, two monkeys were squinting on a purchased stone. To our surprise, they were both in deep sleep, their dark heads bowed to each other, their f- small frames limp. What was amazing was that their delicate hands were touching, their monkey fingers leaning into each other. It was clear that it was this small, sustained touch that allowed them to sleep. As long as they were touching, they could let go. I envied their trust and simplicity. There was none of the human pretense at independence. They clearly needed each other to experience peace. One stirred but didn't wake, and the other, in sleep, kept their fingers touching. How deeply rewarding, the life of touch. Each was drifting inwardly, dreaming whatever monkeys dream. They looked like ancient travelers praying inside a place of rest, made possible because they dared to stay connected. It was one of the most tender and humbling moments I've ever seen. Two aging monkeys weaving fingertips, as if their touch alone kept them from oblivion. I pray for the courage to be as simple in asking for what I need."
- MRMel Robbins
You know, I, I read that, and I can picture it, and then I immediately have a very small-minded thought.
- MNMark Nepo
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
How is it that Mark goes to the zoo-
- MNMark Nepo
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... and sees something so profound, and I see the other monkeys throwing poop-
- MNMark Nepo
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... and my stomach grumbling?
- MNMark Nepo
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
And, you know, I'm joking, but we're talking about the heart space, and we're talking about the depth of life, and we're talking-
- MNMark Nepo
So- Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... about kind of the noticing of what's right here. What do you hope that that essay stirs for somebody?
- MNMark Nepo
The, the courage to stay connected-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- MNMark Nepo
... both to ourselves, each other, and this larger, this larger mystery of life. You know, one of the things that is so important i- a- and- and so it's about, you know, first, you know, Kris, as you shared, we all sh- we all have times when we're closed, and we don't realize it. And so the first kind of practice is to open, but then the next practice is to connect, because, you know, if I open my eyes, what's the point if I don't see? And if I open my heart and I don't love, what's the point of opening it? So, we have to open, and then we have to reach and receive. While all the stuff is, while the poop is being thrown, while the... Because, you know, we, we, we talk about things, uh, i- in life, we separate them so we can make sense of them, but that's not how they exist in life. Like, so we talk about suffering and we talk about beauty, but, you know, we, there's a great table of geological, beautiful, organized table of all the elements. But if you go and you cut into a mountain, they're all jumbled up, and that's the way life is. And so, when we're suffe- while we're suffering is when we need to let beauty in.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MNMark Nepo
While we're closed is when we need to find the quiet courage to open. While we're afraid, and if I can't do it, I need to ask you for help. That's the whole point of friendship.You know, one of the great, I think, central paradoxes of life is that no one has been here who's you, no one can see what you've seen or, or live your life, and no one can do it alone. I think one of the modern psychological diseases is that we think we should do it alone and, and so this, you know, this, this sense which goes back to manifest destiny in America, um, no, we're, you know, we're interdependent. We're interdependent. No one can live my life for me, but I can't do it alone.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- MNMark Nepo
And I know this from all the things I've been through.
- MRMel Robbins
Why do you think these simple things can act like such a lifeline, or open you up when otherwise in life you kind of are going through life feeling very closed off and lonely and...
- 34:39 – 40:49
Small Steps to Self Love
- MRMel Robbins
you take it deeper. You say, "Identify one trait that makes you feel good about who you are. Your laugh, your smile, your ability to listen, or the sound of your voice. Take a moment and give thanks for your small goodness, and for the potential love of others." It's so beautiful. "The next time you exhibit this goodness, notice how who you are affects others."
- MNMark Nepo
So, so one of the things about all my writing is that, like, the bee, you know, the bee doesn't, the, the flower doesn't dream of the bee, it blossoms and the bee comes, I didn't know that when I started that. And, and this is where over time I've discovered that the creative process and the introspective process are really the same thing-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- MNMark Nepo
... I just happen to write it down. And, and so there were so many lessons, and one of them, which is, again, the sense that we don't know, so for anyone, by being authentic, we are given insights. And so when I start things, I am following what is real or troubling or wondrous or confusing for me, and then if I am true, I'm rewarded with an insight. And that, of course, is the insight of that whole entry, um, and I didn't know that. And then, so now, that becomes my teacher. And so this is how we can give our heart's attention, and what comes by being real gives us clues to our own gifts. And so one of the things that that reveals about the, a kind of like a law, if you will, of, uh, a spiritual law, you know, and this, often we see this with first love, you know?... that we're in high school, you love me, and which means you see something in me I haven't yet seen.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- MNMark Nepo
And now, my God. And I think, "You've got the switch to my light. I can't let you out of my sight," which actually is very self-centered. But, nonetheless, um, you know, I'm just like, oh my God, I'm head over heels and, you know. And what we learn over time is the greatest respectful gift we can give to someone who loves us is to own our own light. You saw it, but it's my switch. And I see it in you, and it's your switch, and we have to honor that in each other. And so, this is one of the beautiful things is by being who we are, I mean, we do have to love ourselves first.
- MRMel Robbins
How, though, would you invite somebody-
- MNMark Nepo
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... who really wants to be more loving of themselves first and to, like, find the switch?
- MNMark Nepo
So with all the things we're talking about, I would al- always try to come down to small steps.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- MNMark Nepo
And so one is, um, can you identify, uh, and spend time with one thing you feel good about yourself?
- MRMel Robbins
Ca- can you give me an example?
- MNMark Nepo
You're a good listener. You're a good storyteller. You're good at, uh, showing up when people need you.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- MNMark Nepo
You're good at asking questions. You're good at, um, finding the missing piece, you know. You're, you're good at, um, uh, you know, it could be a thousand things, but something little. And then, to pay attention, not just that you feel good when you do it, but what is it opening in you? What's going on?
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- MNMark Nepo
You know, I always encourage people to use their own life as a case study. Just like DNA, everything's embedded, all of biology's embedded in DNA. Well, i- in our heart, everything, you know, when we touch something real, all of humanity is embedded in there. And so, how do we... You know, so, if I am good at, um, listening to a friend, what does that tell me about my gift of listening?
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- MNMark Nepo
How do I then listen to myself? How do I take that listening and apply it to myself? N- not to achieve anything, but to grow more intimate with who I am. And once we're intimate with who we are, we also be, we enter our kinship with all things.
- MRMel Robbins
Why does it begin with being intimate with yourself before you can be connected to everything else? Do you see what I mean? Like I-
- MNMark Nepo
Yeah. So, so to, to, to speak that, let me g- go-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- MNMark Nepo
... go out a little bit, and, and, you know, all those traditions speak about it, but I really love how the Hindu tradition speaks ab- uh, about it. And so we all have heard the term Namaste or Namaste. I say Namaste, that's the Brooklyn way of saying it.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- MNMark Nepo
Um, (clears throat) but, um, uh, what it means is, I honor, keep, to keep what is true in view, the portion of universal spirit that resides in you. So, in the West, we call that soul. In the East, they call it Atman, Buddha Nature. Christianity calls it the Holy Ghost. Judaism calls it Yahweh. You know, I mean, there's a thousand names. And, and so, what I believe, and that's just my point on the circle in The Elder Council, um, is that just like the air in a bluebird house is a little portion of the sky, we call it the soul here, but we each carry a portion of universal spirit while we're here. So, to become intimate with that allows us to be the inlet or the conduit-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- MNMark Nepo
... between the world of spirit that's existed forever and going to the grocery store.
- 40:49 – 57:28
How to Stay Resilient When Life Falls Apart
- MNMark Nepo
And so, the heart again is, has to stay open, has to stay this open vessel between all of time and all of life and the person you help up who dropped their groceries. And that's why we need to be intimate with our own nature, so that we have access to more... This, this is a paradox that by knowing who I am, I can gain access to all I am not. Now, I'll give you, okay, a very personal example that really, uh, when my father, uh, was toward the end of his life and he lived to be 93, and we were estranged for many years, uh, and both my mother and father for many year about, uh, be... And then in his 80s, we reconnected, which I was so grateful for. And, um, he was a master woodworker. And, you know, so we never, I was his firstborn son, but we, we never spoke the same language, although I learned so much about creativity from him. Didn't, he didn't teach it, but by watching him. So, at the end of his life, he had had a, a, a stroke and was in the hospital, and, um, he could speak, but it was so difficult, he just didn't try. And so I found myself in a very busy ho- he didn't have a separate room, and I was in a ver- very busy hospital setting with beeping and TVs and clattering. And all of a sudden, I'm feeding him applesauce with a spoon. And it was sad and beautiful and bittersweet, and all of a sudden, it was e- my whole life...And that was putting the spoon in his mouth without hitting his teeth, and he was, uh, you know, getting the applesauce, and I'm crying, and, um, and there we are. And again, going back to you can't prepare for these things, but, uh, because my heart was open, all of a sudden I was in a moment of wonder. All of a sudden, not because I was looking for it, but because I held nothing back and I gave everything to that moment, I suddenly was in the moment of every adult child who ever fed a dying parent.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MNMark Nepo
And I wasn't alone. By being thoroughly who I was, called to by love, not by some exercise or because, "Oh, I'll try this." No. Just, poof. All of a sudden, I tripped into this amazing, inexplicable space, and it's changed how I think about resilience. I think another form of resilience is when we are thoroughly who we are, we are... So if I feel your pain, I am in, suddenly, the river of everyone who ever felt pain. If I feel your wonder, I'm in the river of everyone who ever felt wonder. And by being who we are, gaining access to the kinship of all things, is an amazing form of resilience.
- CRChris Robbins
Yeah. I'm still here.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- MNMark Nepo
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- CRChris Robbins
So yes. I have a passage. Um, April 26th. The way is hard but clear. Though it is the hardest going, the way is clear. The naturalist and environmentalist, Kevin Scribner, tells us that salmon make their way upstream by bumping repeatedly into block pathways until they find where the current is strongest. Somehow they know that the unimpeded rush of water means there is no obstacle there, and so they enter this opening fervently. For though it is the hardest going, the way is clear. The lesson here is as unnerving as it is helpful. In facing both inner and outer adversities, the passage of truth comes at us with a powerful momentum because it is clear and unimpeded. And so, where we sense the rush of truth is where we must give our all. As human beings, the blocked pathways of our journey can take on many forms, and whether it be in avoiding conflict with others or in not taking the risk to love, or in not accepting the call of spirit that would have us participate more fully in our days, it is often easier to butt up continually against these blocked pathways than to enter fervently the one passage that is so powerfully clear. In this regard, salmon innately model a healthy persistence by showing us how to keep nosing for the unimpeded way, and once finding it, how to work even harder to make it through. Some say it is easier for salmon since the power of their drive to end where they begin is not compromised by the endless considerations that often keep us from the truth. Still, it is the heart's capacity to rise one more time after falling down, no matter how bruised, that ver- verifies that such a drive lives in us too. Like salmon, our way depends not just on facing things head-on, but in moving our whole being through.
- MNMark Nepo
(laughs)
- CRChris Robbins
Thank you. I love that passage for a lot of reasons, but, uh, not the least of which because I love fish and fishing and all the above.
- MNMark Nepo
(laughs)
- CRChris Robbins
Um, but, um, it's part of the origin story, if you will, in finding some of this work and, and your writing, is that I think that there were, there were a lot of elements of what was going on in my life that were true.
- MNMark Nepo
Mm-hmm.
- CRChris Robbins
Um, but they were all sort of in that confluence of water rushing, if you will, and me not seeking that, um, where the water was flowing the hardest, if you will. Um, so when I read that, it just speaks to, um, not only maybe some of the breakthroughs that I had for myself, but also just... I'm often sharing this work with other men who are often, um, working as hard as they can.
- MNMark Nepo
Yeah.
- CRChris Robbins
And feeling like they are trying to nose their way through, uh, the tough stuff, but, you know, it's not... When you're in the middle of it, certainly for the salmon in the middle of the river, like, it's not always that, uh, it's not always that apparent.
- MNMark Nepo
Yeah.
- CRChris Robbins
And, of course, a lot easier to sit in the eddy- (laughs)
- MNMark Nepo
Yeah.
- CRChris Robbins
... and, and catch your breath than, than really go for it. And so, um, this is a lot of what I find myself in conversation about, is finding that, at least discussing what could be true.
- MNMark Nepo
Yeah.
- CRChris Robbins
And then trying to inch ourselves towards that rushing water.
- MNMark Nepo
Well, thank you. And I, I, I also feel it's important that in facing, uh, these openings.... that we can't do it alone (laughs) , and we don't have to do it all at once.
- CRChris Robbins
Yeah.
- MNMark Nepo
Like, I may find like, oh, there it is, but (exhales) I don't know if I can do it today. (laughs) And, um, but I think it is... And, and, you know, for me, I, I, I think my native, the language I was born with was metaphor, and, and, and so I've always seen things in looking at things, and, and then worked to find out what the teaching is. And, (inhales deeply) and in that one, you know, I think it also speaks to how we're awfully hum- often humbled into letting go of where we think we're going.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm. I wanted to dig more into that essay, Chris, because when you read it as the salmon, and if you've ever seen salmon swimming upstream, and they're leaping up with the water leaping up and they're efforting their way, I think if I had to guess why there's so much emotion, it's that oftentimes where the water is rushing, you are actively resisting going there. Whether it's ending the relationship or admitting to yourself that you're not happy, or it is getting sober, or it's deciding that you want to have a deeper spiritual experience that you deeply-
- CRChris Robbins
Or all of the above. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs) Oh, my god.
- MNMark Nepo
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Just do 'em all at once.
- 57:28 – 1:04:08
Rituals vs. Habits
- MNMark Nepo
I'm afraid of being lonely, and I already am. (laughs) I'm afraid things are gonna change. They've already changed. And often the heart knows first, and we play catch-up. And so this is also why it's so important, again, because we're human, and, and so a lot of the things we talk about, about being blocked or being, um, struggling and all these different... I think of them not as deficiencies but as developmental aspects of our journey.
- MRMel Robbins
What do you do when you wake up in the morning? I mean, I wake up, I get out of bed, I make the bed.
- MNMark Nepo
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
I brush my teeth. I go for a walk. I read a, a, you know, page in your book a lot of mornings to anchor me. But what do you do first thing in the morning?
- MNMark Nepo
So the first thing I do, and this opens up a wonderful thing I'd love to talk a little bit about. So I'm up. My wife, Susan, is kind of a night owl, and I'm a morning person, which actually gives us kinda good alone time at either end of the day. And, and we don't have kids, but a very spoiled yellow Lab, Zuzu, and, um ... So the first thing I do is I do three simple things as rituals to start the day. I open up the blinds to let light in.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MNMark Nepo
I take care of something living by taking care of feeding Zuzu, and then I do something for someone I love. I make coffee for Susan before she wakes.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- MNMark Nepo
So, I invite people who are li- you know, with us and watching or listening to think of your own simple rituals, because when I inhabit them fully, they change the whole day. So, this brings up the difference between ritual and habit. So, when I'm present to it, I'm letting the light in, caring for something living, and doing something for someone I love. And that aligns me, going back to the, the will and the river, that aligns me, um, for the day. Now, if I'm late, and I go, "Oh, no, I gotta open the damn blinds. I gotta feed the dog. I love you, but, ugh," well, that just turned into a habit. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
I just had a huge breakthrough. I realized that there's something I do every morning that I didn't even realize was part of the morning.
- MNMark Nepo
What?
- MRMel Robbins
I literally, when I open my eyes, especially when we're home, I look right out the window, and I s- 'cause the, we don't close the blind, and I savor what I see. And I had never thought about the grounding ritual that keeps you connected to something bigger rather than the things that I do that are part of the way I set up the day that do feel like the doing versus the being.
- MNMark Nepo
And-
- MRMel Robbins
So what is the difference between ritual and habit in your words? Like, how do you define that?
- MNMark Nepo
So it's being present and open-hearted. So the thing about self-awareness, and this is a good example of the work of self-awareness, so I'm rushing through. I'm late. "Oh, I gotta open the damn blinds." But I can stop and go back and say, "Ah, I'm gonna be present and make it a ritual again." And we can do that like that. So it led me to look, to find the origin of the word ritual which goes back to a Sanskrit word, R-T-A, rta-... which means the hidden order of the universe. So rituals, that we make ritual by being present and open-hearted reveal the hidden order of the universe.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MNMark Nepo
And it's something that anyone can do, even in the middle of the day. If you re- realize you're not present, stop, okay, no judgment, back up. Do the simple thing open-heartedly.
- MRMel Robbins
Can you give us a couple examples of a ritual or a number of rituals that the person listening can start to implement in their life or start to practice in their life to be able to tap into this power?
- MNMark Nepo
Yeah. So, you know, anything that you do either beginning the day, ending the day, or during the day. Just, just choose three simple, simple things. It may be watering the flowers. Be open to the water feeding the flowers as they grow and what that mirrors in you that is growing.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MNMark Nepo
Or, you know, even, uh, you know, dropping something off for someone. You're l- leaving a meal for someone. Anything that you can open your heart to, to take in what it really means. What it really means. And so, and that become... You know, it could be, you know, (laughs) it could be making the bed. You know, I have a poem, I don't have it with me, but it's a poem where the first part of the poem, I go, "Oh, I gotta make the bed every day. What's the point? And I gotta pay the bills." And I, "Ugh." You know, and I... And, and then in the poem, a friend calls up and says, "You know, it's such a wonderful day. I get to make the bed and I get to pay the bills." And so the d- Again, the glass is both half full and half empty. Being human, there will be days when we feel like, "I gotta do this again?" But by staying open-hearted and admitting and being present, we recover the miracle of it.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MNMark Nepo
And it... The, the goal is not to eliminate one or the other because we're human. So, how do we be kind to ourselves and go, "Yeah, there will be days that I'll feel like I don't believe I have to do this one more time." But let life unfold, and tomorrow you say, "Oh, my God. I get to make the bed and wake up and look out the window." And, and one other thing I'd say about this for me. And I don't... You know, so years ago, I would always do the tedious things first and save the, the really sacred things when I got all that done. Nobody taught me to do it that way. Somehow I did that. I had it all ass-backwards. By doing what matters first,
- 1:04:08 – 1:08:07
Why Getting Older Makes Life Better
- MNMark Nepo
it changes the entire day.
- MRMel Robbins
How?
- MNMark Nepo
Because my lens, my aperture of heart and mind is wider and deeper, and the tasks are not as tedious. Doesn't mean I enjoy... You know, it's not like reframing that something tedious is suddenly wonderful. But it takes the edge off of all that.
- MRMel Robbins
I really wanna get to your-
- MNMark Nepo
Yeah. Okay.
- MRMel Robbins
... new best-selling book-
- MNMark Nepo
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... The Fifth Season, which is all about creativity in the second half of life. And you write beautifully in this book about growing older with purpose.
- MNMark Nepo
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And I'd love to have you talk a little bit about what you've learned (laughs) about purpose and creativity as you have gotten older-
- MNMark Nepo
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... that you wish you had known a long time ago. And look, I realize that you couldn't have known it a long time ago-
- MNMark Nepo
No.
- MRMel Robbins
... because you now know it based on your experience, but...
- MNMark Nepo
Yeah. And, and one of the things I, I find myself saying more often as I get older is whatever it is, like, you know, "I wish I'd known this five years ago," or this and that, is that, um, we're always right on time.
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- MNMark Nepo
As much as we wanted it to happen, we, we can't. You can't. You know, the things that I'm writing now, I couldn't have written 20 years ago, 30 years ago, because I hadn't experienced what I've experienced. So, you know, I start the book with a, a metaphor that has been such a teacher for me, and it's the metaphor of a meteor. Now, as a meteor comes into the atmos- Very few land on Earth. Most of them are burned up. So, what happens is a meteor comes into the atmosphere, and as it starts to flake off, as it gets brighter and brighter until there's nothing left but light. I think this is a good metaphor for the journey of a spirit and a body in time on Earth over a lifetime.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- NANarrator
Mm-hmm.
- MNMark Nepo
Now, you know, we don't like the flaking off. You know, my back surgery was flaking off. (laughs)
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- MNMark Nepo
You know? The arthritis I, I'm starting to feel is flaking off. But I am getting brighter and brighter. And, and in letting that light that's coming through me be my teacher. So, I think... And so one of the things that happens too is I think our horizons shift. You know, I'm 74. I sure hope I live to be 100. Um, I have a... You know, my grand... Great-grandmother lived to be 105. Um-
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- MNMark Nepo
And my grandmother 94. So, you know, I'm hoping. But regardless, there's more years behind than ahead.And so, the horizon shifts, in that the, you know, the true purpose of looking forward or back is to make my light brighter now. So, this brings in the true purpose of memory.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MNMark Nepo
Memory is not nostalgia. Nostalgia is wanting to go back and live in a time because it feels like that was better than now.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MNMark Nepo
The true purpose of memory, I'm finding, is if there was a time in my past where I felt a certain aliveness or a wonder or a gift or love, can I revisit that to remember what it feels like, to trace and see where it is in me now? So, I can recover it now, not go- go back to then. And the same thing with dreams at this stage
- 1:08:07 – 1:13:53
We’re More Together Than Alone
- MNMark Nepo
of life. If I'm dreaming forward, it's because I'm allowing something in me that wants to be born to come out, and how do I take that and see where it lives in me now? So actually, this, though I- though I'm learning this later in life, it's actually very helpful practice no matter what age you are.
- MRMel Robbins
If there's kinda one message that you hope someone carries with them after being here with us and really taking in the gifts that you've given us today, the things that you've shared with us, what do you hope the person carries away from this conversation?
- MNMark Nepo
Well, um, well, that- that we are more together than alone.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MNMark Nepo
And that we need each other. And I would also, you know, I would wanna- wanna share maybe two notions about faith in a- in a poem.
- MRMel Robbins
Sure.
- MNMark Nepo
And the notions about faith, the- the- one- one is the Buddhist word for faith is saddha, and it means, and I love this expression, it means resting the heart in what is true.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MNMark Nepo
Resting the heart in what is true. And I think that's an inner definition of fun- not faith in a doctrine or a tradition or a saint or a sage, but functional faith. And all the things we've been talking about, opening, admitting, opening our heart, you know, ritual versus habit, all of these things, courage, surrender, they are ways to rest the heart in what is true. And that lets us stand by our core.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MNMark Nepo
And the outer s- sense of faith, functional faith, as I refer to Paul Tillich, who was a Protestant theologian, and he said, "Faith is an act of ultimate concern." And I love that. So, what I love about both of those is by resting our heart in what is true, what's in the heart comes out through the hands in the world. So, how do we practice personally resting our heart in what is true and giving ourselves to acts of ultimate concern? And I think those are two wonderful practices to devote ourselves to. Um ... So, the poem I'd love to end with is one of my poems called Free Fall. "If you have one hour of air and many hours to go, you must breathe slowly. If you have one arm's length and many things to care for, you must give freely. If you have one chance to know God and many doubts, you must set your heart on fire. We are blessed. Each day is a chance. We have two arms. Fear wastes air."
- MRMel Robbins
Mark Nepo, what are your parting words?
- MNMark Nepo
(sighs) You know, my, uh, my parting words is that, uh, life is more than anything we could dream of if we truly, uh, meet each other and meet ourselves right here, right now.
- MRMel Robbins
I wanna thank you for teaching me how to do that. And I wanna thank you for getting on a plane-
- MNMark Nepo
Yeah. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... and coming here to our studios in Boston, and sharing everything that you did. It has been a real honor to finally meet you, and I am so excited by the ripple of positive change and consciousness that will spread around the world in ways that we will never know because of the person that is listening today who shares this experience with people that they deeply care about. So, I wanna thank you-
- MNMark Nepo
Oh, thank you.
- MRMel Robbins
... from the bottom of my heart for making a huge difference in my life. I wanna thank you, Chris. I love you. Um, thank you for being here.
- MNMark Nepo
I love you, too.
- MRMel Robbins
And I wanna thank you for choosing to spend time listening to something that could open up your heart and change your life. And as your friend, I wanted to be sure to tell you, in case nobody else does today, that I love you, and I believe in you and your ability to create a better life. And opening yourself up to the magic of life itself, that's certainly gonna help you create a better life, and I really want that for you. (instrumental music plays) So, that's all I gotta say 'cause I think I gotta go cry or read a Mark Nepo passage. (laughs)
- MNMark Nepo
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
Uh, but I'll be waiting for you in the next episode. I'll be there to welcome you in the moment you hit play. I'll see you there. And thank you for watching all the way to the end. And you're gonna love this next video, and I'll be waiting to welcome you in the moment you hit play.
Episode duration: 1:13:53
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode 1iSw8rrTdyk
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome