The Mel Robbins PodcastThe Hidden Signs Someone's In a Narcissistic Relationship | The Mel Robbins Podcast
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
140 min read · 27,877 words- 0:00 – 0:47
Intro
- MRMel Robbins
(ticking sound) A lot of people want to know, am I more prone to dating a narcissist if I grew up in a household with a narcissistic caregiver?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
That just because you came from a narcissistic family system, it doesn't mean you're damaged. And remember, narcissistic people are very victimized. How come everyone's out to get me? How come life's so unfair to me? Do you say I'm sorry?
- MRMel Robbins
No. Why would you? What did you do wrong?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
I don't know, 'cause I, I'm conditioned to.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs) .
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
I don't know.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay, so now we are at the point of the podcast where I feel like we have popped the popcorn and everybody listening is going, oh God. (upbeat music) . Okay, everybody, buckle up, get the pens out. We are ready for a rocking hour. I cannot wait because Dr. Ramani is back.
- 0:47 – 1:22
Introducing Dr. Ramani
- MRMel Robbins
You just absolutely flooded us with questions about narcissism, surviving narcissism, healing from narcissism, and most importantly, dating. Dating, workplace, we are digging into this. And so I cannot wait to jump right in. Thank you for coming back.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Thank you.
- MRMel Robbins
Here's where I want to start, because we got a lot of questions about this after doing our first episode about, uh, parental narcissism.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And growing up with a narcissistic parent or sibling in your house, how it affects you as an adult, how to heal from it. A lot of people want to know, uh, am
- 1:22 – 12:38
What makes you more prone to dating a narcissist
- MRMel Robbins
I more prone to dating a narcissist if I grew up in a household with a narcissistic caregiver?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Well, it certainly sets you up with a vulnerability because it, it almost normalizes some of it, and it also takes away, it, it, it robs a person from their sense of self and the fact that they even have the right to express their needs. Well, that's a perfect trap because now if you're not expressing your needs, the narcissistic person you need isn't going to meet them anyhow. You can easily get caught. Repeat that same trauma bonded dance of justifying this person's behavior, feeling that it's your fault. Like, it really, it sort of indoctrinates you into accepting this behavior in a partner.
- MRMel Robbins
Because it's familiar from childhood?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
It's familiar and it's also a, it, it becomes almost a psychologically a way of relating to the world. In fact, I've worked with more than a few survivors who said, "You know, I met a healthy person. They were kind and empathic and generous of spirit and believed in me, and I convinced myself I was bored with them."
- MRMel Robbins
Wow, that's so true.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
Like, it is true that-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... there are lots of, like, we all have a friend or sibling that you're like, they're such a nice person.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
Or the, the person that you're supposed-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... to be with is right in front of you.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
And I tell them, if you've come from, come through a narcissistic family system and you meet someone, and I, boring is not even the right word. Like, you're not, I hate to say this, that you're not triggered by them, right? But you feel like it's not, it's not what you think love is supposed to be, which is exciting, but think about what your life was as a child. It was a roller coaster. Good days, bad days, I'm going to win them over. Today's the day. Oh my gosh, who's going to come home today? They have a candy bar in their briefcase for me. It's a good day. Like, that kind of up and down and, and just anticipation almost makes it that an adult relationship that's characterized by that rollercoastery vibe is what you've conflated with love. So when a survivor tells me, "I've met someone, like, I don't know, it's not all the za-za-zoo," I'm like, okay, this might be a keeper. Let's just keep going. Sadly, what I've witnessed, Mel, is that many people had to go through the brutality of a narcissistic relationship, and then after having to leave that and shut it down, were they then able to hold space for someone who treated them with kindness and generosity? It breaks their hearts. They think, what would my life have been if this was the kind of person I had been with all along? But it's almost as though their psyche couldn't accommodate that because nobody's teaching this in school.
- MRMel Robbins
Well-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
People learn about this after they've been hurt by it.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, and you know, the thing that you just said that I think is really important is whatever that roller coaster was, that was your experience of love because you were a child.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
That's what you know.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And so it makes a lot of sense to me. So for those folks that are listening, we got a, we got this question a ton. What... Well, first let me ask this. So if you listened to the first episode or you already know that you grew up in a household with a narcissistic parent, what are the few things that you need to do for your own healing so that you can be open to and interested in somebody who's healthy-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Healthy for you.
- MRMel Robbins
... even though you've never been with somebody who is?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Number one is being willing to see it clearly. This is a painful, like, it's that painful awareness of, oh my gosh, my parent i- is, is, is, is narcissistic. My parent is antagonistic. I have a parent who has no empathy. Because it almost is like leaning into the sort of, a lot of people say, who had narcissistic parents said, "I felt a certain shame about my childhood. Like, I knew something wasn't quite right here, but I didn't know what it was." No kid wants to be the odd kid out, right? Nobody wants to be the kid who has the fighting parents or something's not quite right in their home, and I think with people who grow up in those kinds of home, it was sort of like fake, like to the world, like maybe your friends would come over and your parent would actually be really charming, but then when your, everyone was out of the house, your parent was a rager. That kind of inconsistency really would leave people feeling like, what is wrong with me?
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
So it becomes, it really becomes doing th- It is about therapy or doing the deep dive of, of being willing to sort of look at these patterns with a very open eye no matter how painful it is, that just because you came from a narcissistic family system, it doesn't mean you're damaged. It's not an indictment of you, which unfortunately a lot of people feel. And then to really take a good hard look at where has this hijacked you? Where has this s- robbed you of your autonomy, of your identity-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
... of who you are? Like, do the hard work. Some of that can even be done, if not just through therapy, through journaling. Just being aware of where that happened, how you talk to yourself, how you apologize for things you didn't even do wrong, how you're constantly putting yourself down, self-gaslighting yourself, like, "Oh, I don't know what I'm talking about. Don't listen to me." How many people do that reflexively? That's a throwback to that childhood. It's about getting your house in order.... before you start going out there and basically replicating those cycles.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Unfortunately, that's not what people are taught to do. And a lot of people in their early 20s don't have the time, the volition, or the money to go into therapy.
- 12:38 – 18:22
Red flags that you are dating narcissist
- MRMel Robbins
So, is there one or two red flags that, for you, are just non-negotiable? Like, the second you see that one, you are like, "Nope." 'Cause when you talk about being closed off, 'cause you are extremely warm, and extremely smart, and extremely generous. And so, I'm just wondering, 'cause I think that what's scary about hearing all this is that by the time you kinda wake up and you're three months into something or three years-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... into something-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... and all the bonds are there, and the lease is signed, and you're married, or you have kids, or now you've moved in together, or now you're like-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... got all the chemicals flooding your body-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... because you're falling in love, and you start to hear these red flags. You know, I never would have had the strength, I think, when I think, like-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Most people don't.
- MRMel Robbins
You know what I mean? To be like, "Oh, okay, time to end this."
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
No, no, no, most people don't. And that's again, it's important for people to hear that, 'cause a lot of people feel foolish. Why didn't I heed the red flags? I knew it on my wedding day. I knew it. I felt it. Because when we l- you know, again, these stories are so easy to tell backwards. But at that point, it would have felt cataclysmic. And in a way, this was the only way you were gonna truly get the lesson. You know, it's, it's unfortunate. And I, you know, the, the issue then becomes like, when I meet somebody who's a little bit too charming, a little bit too charismatic, I shut down. I'm like, "Why? What is this?" And, and people are saying, "You're the, you're the only person I've ever met who walks away from charismatic people." Literally. I've been at gatherings and a person's just that person, and I'll, I'll, I, I... People must think I have some sort of bowel disorder, 'cause I'm like, "I have to run to the restroom." The number of times (laughs) at a social event I'll say, "I have to run to the restroom," people are like, "What did she eat?"
- MRMel Robbins
You know, it's interesting that you say that, because I recently had a couple things go down, both in business and life, that were just shocking betrayals, lies, stolen from, all that kind of stuff, that just knocked me over. And when I look back through my life, there is a very pronounced pattern of me being drawn like a moth to the flame to very charismatic-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Hm.
- MRMel Robbins
... funny, kind of rebelly people, and I get sucked right in, and then I realize once I'm, like, kind of in the inner circle-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... oh my God, this person's unpredictable.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
This person, like, trashes people that leave the room.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
This person-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... has major mood swings.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And then I literally go into a mode of just twisting myself in knots to not upset the person.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Correct. That, that, and that is actually, that's actually a, a, a trauma response.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Twisting yourself into knots to not u- upset the person, or even like, you know, like, "Oh, you're so great," like the fawning response. These are classic trauma responses.
- MRMel Robbins
And, and it took a couple really painful experiences-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- 18:22 – 25:01
Love Bombing
- MRMel Robbins
bombing?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
So, love bombing is the...It's the, the sort of the, it's where the charm and charisma turn into behavior. It's the early phase of any narcissistic relationship. We tend to only use this term for romantic relationships. It can happen in friendships, workplace, you name it, anywhere. It is this intense and overwhelming, I'm going to call it a courtship, where a person is... It's almost an obsessive fascination with you. They are, it's the person trying to win you over. The classical, kind of, trope-y love bombing is on your first date you go to the best restaurant in town, then they get the concert tickets no one can get, and on your third date, you fly to Paris, and, and you dance till 6:00 AM in, on the beach, and, and it's so exciting, and they make a scavenger hunt for you, and they get you gifts, and every Friday there's a dozen roses waiting for you. That's love bombing. It's fairytale, it's larger than life. But, it, it, it, I think if we only use that trope, we... It's tricky.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah, I was just going to say-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Because it's too simple.
- MRMel Robbins
... who can afford to do that? I'm like, "That's a-"
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Well, the-
- MRMel Robbins
Like, how, k- how do you do that on a blue-collar budget? That's-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
You take- Yeah, I'll tell you how.
- MRMel Robbins
Tell me how.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
You take people to whatever's considered the best restaurant in the, you know, to your budget.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Like, the person's still going to think that's great. They'll pack. They'll say, "Let's go on a drive to wherever the cool place to go on the drive is."
- MRMel Robbins
Got it.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
"I'm going to show you the coolest view you've ever seen in your life." They'll buy things. It might not be-
- MRMel Robbins
It's like they'll whisk you off your feet. "I'm proving to you-"
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
It's the, "Good night, princess. Good morning. I can't start my day without thinking about you." And then there'll be subtle things, like, "Take a picture where you're at. I just want to see where you're at." To me, that's, this person's stalking you. Why do they need to know where you're at? Of course, I am the anti-romance. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
Well, well-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Do not, do not find me on Valentine's Day.
- MRMel Robbins
A couple of those is fine. Not, like, I, but not on the, like, second date. Okay.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Right, but it's a lot of that. It's, it's intense contact. But love bombing just doesn't look like that. Love bombing may become really intense, almost oversharing, really early in the game. Like, they're, they're laying out, like, these, this really deep profound true or untrue story about their past, about their childhood, about what they're feeling, and for some people, that's the play because they'll say, "Oh, my gosh. This person's sharing so much. They're so vulnerable." And now you're kind of in because they've shared so much. Love bombing can be too much time together. "Our first date lasted two weeks." Like, do you happen to have a job? Like, what kind of... I mean, (laughs) what kind of first date lasts two weeks? So, like, when people say that stuff are like, "I knew right away," um, it's like trauma bond. You know, like, the minute people say that, I know that sounds so cold, but it's actually not. It's the, it is this sort of... People might say, like, "When I first saw them, like, I was really attracted to them," but not like, "I knew right away." But the two-week first date, there's this intense intention.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
"They spent so much time together. I canceled all my plans to be with them. You know, it was so... Their, their lease came up, and yeah, we'd only been together a month, but we decided to move in together." Fast, fast, fast, fast, fast. The fastness is also a part of love bombing. It's an intensity.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
It's what I call an intense indoctrination into another person. They are winning you over. When you're being love bombed, you're so distracted by the sharing, by the obsession, by the texting, by the emails, by the gifts, by the quickness that you're not noticing the red flags.
- MRMel Robbins
So, what do you do if you're a friend? Because I think oftentimes, you know, if you see this happening to a friend, or you as the friend on the outside start to have the red flags go up-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... and you say something to your friend, "You know, maybe you guys should take it, take it a little easier."
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
Or, "You know, he, I, I hear he wasn't that great with his last girlfriend." Or, like, you just try, like, how do you approach it if you're the friend?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Don't drop a dime on the other person 'cause the minute you try to-
- 25:01 – 29:43
Gaslighting
- MRMel Robbins
the term gaslighting coming up.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
Can you explain what gaslighting is?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Right. So, gaslighting is a form of emotional abuse. It's a form of manipulation. But it's, it's a, it is a doubting of reality, followed up with a making someone feel impaired. And it, the, uh, so it's not just lying, right? It's not like, "I didn't move the checkbook." That's a lie.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Okay, they did move the checkbook. It's not, "That never happened." That's a lie. It did, all right? So that, up to the first part of gaslighting is lying. It's the second part of it that makes it gaslighting, which is the, you say, we'll use a simple example. "Did you m- move the checkbook? I always keep it in this drawer." Like, "I, no, I didn't move the checkbook." "Are you sure you didn't move the checkbook? It's always in this drawer." "You know what? Your memory has been going lately. This isn't the first time. And you know, you've been so distracted and stressed. In fact, it's affecting our relationship. Like, have you thought about talking to someone?" Now it's become a conversation about how you have memory problems and are distracted and stressed out of your mind, but they actually did move the checkbook.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, I had this situation, I can't really go into it in great detail, but dealing with a narcissist in a work relationship.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
Where I knew something was up. I would say, "Blahbity, blahbity, blah," about the issue, and they would lie.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And then they would point it back, "But you've been so busy-"
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Correct. Correct. Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... "I handled it-"
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Correct. Bingo.
- MRMel Robbins
... over and o-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yep.
- MRMel Robbins
And then the more the, the closer I got to the truth, the more I noticed this rage.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Like this, ugh. It's, it's, it's, in, in the narcissists that I now see that I have dealt with, whether it's in work or in life or relationships or friendships, there's always this moment that I call that, (laughs) that, you know in the Bravo, uh, New J- Real Housewives of New Jersey, that famous clip where that woman flips over the table?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yes. Yes, yes. And I don't even watch it-
- MRMel Robbins
It's like this rage.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
... and I know that. Yeah, it's rage. Yeah, it's a- that's a great narcissistic moment.
- MRMel Robbins
So, narcissist-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Narcissistic rage is a thing?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Oh, it's absolutely a thing.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
It is a, because it's a rage that's set off by their thin-skinned, uh, reactive sensitivity. Right? Something that does not require a table being flipped over. I don't know that anything anyone could say to you would be a table being flipped over. Right? I mean, short of like, I don't know, I, I killed your best friend. Well, I suppose I might flip a table over at that point. But short of that, no table flipping. And table, these very dramatic, dysregulated gestures, and afterwards, they'll soft pedal it or downplay it, or give you a pseudo-apology and then just do it again.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah. Wow. Are there other forms of gaslighting, uh, that might surprise us? You know, like, yeah, there's that sort of like lying and then flipping it back on you.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- 29:43 – 33:59
How to break up with a narcissist
- MRMel Robbins
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Not every narcissistic relationship ends. Keep this in mind. I think that-
- MRMel Robbins
Should it?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Listen, if I ran the world, sure. But I don't run the world, and I also know that for some people, they're saying, "You know what? I'm not gonna divorce my parent." There's reasons of culture, reasons of other people in my family that matter to me, um, my own sense of duty and obligation and responsibility. I see them clearly now though, and I'm gonna interact with them differently, but I'm not gonna end all contact with them.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Okay? There are many people, I'd say 50% of people in narcissistic marriages stay, in long-term committed relationships, stay. And I understand that. And I don't think that there, there should be a pressure to go. 'Cause when there's that pressure to go, what I see is a lost opportunity to help that person heal and grow, even while they stay in it.
- MRMel Robbins
So, by the person heal and grow, you're talking about the person who's in the relationship.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yes. Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
Because as we learned-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... in the very beginning, you can't change the weather-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah, no.
- MRMel Robbins
... in Chicago, and you cannot change-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
We're not changing the narcissist. That's not even on the table.
- MRMel Robbins
You, well, and, and, and it's important for everybody to hear this, because you are listening...... to the world's leading expert on this, who has had a clinical practice, who has been an academic, who is sought after by everybody on this topic. You have been in clinical settings treating narcissists who have come in looking for help-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... because it now serves them, because the board of directors is now getting ready-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... to fire them, or their, their spouses ready to divorce them.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Or they genuinely feel that everyone's out to get them. They're, they're, I mean, remember, narcissistic people are very victimized. If things aren't going their way, "Everyone's out to get me. I have a target on my back. Witch hunt, witch hunt." That kind of thing. "How come everyone's out to get me? How come life's so unfair to me?"
- MRMel Robbins
Yep, yep. And if you are in a clinical setting, and you are working with a narcissist who is self-motivated to try to change-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... how much can they change?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
That's a great question. So I've, I've worked with many clients like this. You're gonna get... The best we can hope for is a little bit more accountability. They'll still have rage, but they might catch it and apologize a little bit more. They are still gonna roll their eyes when they don't want to listen to someone, but they'll maybe do it less. Um, they'll huff and puff when they're made to wait in the line at the airport, but they won't scream at the gate agent. Um, you get... They, they can sprint through some stuff. You can get them to sprint through some stuff, but they're never gonna be marathoners. They're still gonna drop the ball a lot. I've worked with people who once they learned what it meant to stop being this way, which meant empathy, listening to people, being present, holding space for them, being accountable for their bad behavior, um, uh, not getting angry at people or sharing their feelings. Uh, one person say to me, "This is what this is about?" And I said, um, "Yeah." So, (laughs) he said, "I want a break in therapy for a little while." And in that period of time, he divorced his wife and broke up with his mistress. And I said, "Oh." And he's like, "You know what?" And this is... He said, "I don't want to hurt these people. I really don't want to hurt people. But I can see they're getting hurt, and you've clearly pointed that out in here that I am hurting them." So, I would say that that's... I mean, how do you think they felt? We did a lot of what's called mentalization work, forcing the person to think about how do you think that other person feels. And in a therapy room, if they scream at me, I'd be like, "Bye. Out. You're not my client anymore." So they, um, they... He said, "I don't want to hurt them, but I don't want to listen to them. I'm not interested in their BS. I'm not interested in their feelings. Like, I could do it for 10 minutes, but this hours thing, no. I want to live in my own place, and I don't miss sex, so I found someone, and I pay her every two weeks, and she comes by, and I don't want her to wake up next to me." And-
- MRMel Robbins
Sounds like a real peach.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Okay, but was. I, you know what? I'd say kind of a peach. I wasn't mad at him. He, his ex-wife can now go and find... Is no longer chase... She may still wonder-
- MRMel Robbins
So what do you
- 33:59 – 36:33
How to heal from narcissistic relationship
- MRMel Robbins
do-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
... "Why was I not enough?"
- MRMel Robbins
... if you're the ex-wife? Because I think one of the other things that I've learned from you is that the damage that a narcissist-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... does-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
She's got to go do her work now. I mean, she's-
- MRMel Robbins
And what is that work?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
That work is learning about narcissism, understanding you're not to blame, under- It's almost like a person is gonna be less frustrated by their car breaking down if they know how their car works. Right? So now you're like-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
... "Oh, this mechanic's taking advantage of me." I'm like, "No, no, you know how to change your own carburetor." Like, I'm teaching you how to, to fix this thing.
- MRMel Robbins
Got it.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Okay? And the fix is not in them, it's in you.
- MRMel Robbins
'Cause remember, you ain't changing the weather in Chicago.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
You're not changing weather in Chicago. And, and, and-
- MRMel Robbins
And ultimately, the person that you treated that would do these very intense-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... visualization exercises to try to understand empathy, the only thing that happened is that he gained the knowledge to go, "I'm not doing that."
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
And here's the thing though, that to me is a form of empathy, because I'll tell you this. Instead of saying, "Well, she needs to step up. She needs to meet me where I'm at."
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
He's like, "I don't want to hurt these people, and I am going to keep hurting them because if you think I'm gonna sit here and listen to their BS feelings without rolling my eyes, you're high."
- MRMel Robbins
So Dr. Ramani, you have really helped me because there were kind of some major takeaways that I've learned from you. One being that you don't change the weather in Chicago, you're not changing the behavior of a narcissist or the brain of one, period. Second, that narcissists are made during childhood. They're not necessarily born that way.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
They're not. They're definitely not born that way.
- MRMel Robbins
The third thing is that if it's truly somebody with a narcissistic personality, they don't even know they're doing it. It's not like it is a conscious behavior.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
No.
- MRMel Robbins
It is so ingrained in, in how they behave that it's a, like a reaction to situations.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Correct, but this takes... This is an important flip I need to make on that, 'cause people say, "Well, if they don't know, then I can't be mad at them." To which I say, "Yes, you can." Uh, we recently had a YouTube video. I think it's come out or it's coming out soon. Basically, it's that multiple things can be true.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
And nowhere is that more true than in a narcissistic relationship. This person had a tough childhood. Yup. This person invalidates me every day. Yup. We have kids together. Yup. They're not going to stop doing this. Yeah. You see what I'm saying? Like-
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
... all those things can be true at the same time.
- 36:33 – 38:20
Key Concept: It’s not your fault
- MRMel Robbins
for somebody that is listening right now who realizes, "Oh my God, I'm in a relationship with a narcissist"? What is the most important truth that you want that person to start to think about and embrace?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
This is not your fault.You're not responsible for somebody else's behavior. You're not. Not even, uh, at some level maybe we could say that about our children's behavior to a point, but even, there's a point that that goes away, right? You are not responsible for the, "Well, they're reacting to me." No, they're reacting, and there is other ways to react. So, they could, they could calmly say to you, "I, I don't like how you're talking to me and I need a minute." Can teach them those things. They can go to therapy and learn that, but they feel entitled to their reactions.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
They feel entitled to their rage. This is how I react. I, this is who I am. And that's the other thing you'll hear. "Authentically, this is who I am." To which I want people to say, "Then maybe that doesn't work for you." And listen, Mel, there's many a person out there who waits till their youngest child turns 18 and that's the day they file for divorce.
- MRMel Robbins
Yep. Wow. You know, the other thing that I learned from you today that was just a game changer was when you said you are trained to believe that doing something that a narcissist doesn't like is wrong.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm. Right.
- MRMel Robbins
That's where the guilt comes-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm. That's where the guilt comes from. Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... from. That you learned guilt because somebody made you believe that it's wrong to disappoint them.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Correct. Correct. And, and because you learn that, you learn that as a child. That is one of those things that gets indoctrinated in childhood, and then you carry that into any relationship where there feels like there's a power difference or somebody is more dominant, and that's why people like this will repeat these cycles at work, repeat them in intimate relationships,
- 38:20 – 42:07
What if your boss is a narcissist?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
and even in friendships.
- MRMel Robbins
What do you do if your boss is narcissistic?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Oh, heaven help.
- MRMel Robbins
Like, they're constantly raging at you. They're, you know, they're, they're unpredictable. They take credit for everything. How do you handle that situation?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Here's the thing, workplace situations are interesting because, you know, it's, I understand people need jobs and sometimes people say, "I am never gonna find a job that pays me this much. Like, I'm making, and I'm, I'm my primary, primary bread- breadwinner in my situation." Then we go back to that radical acceptance. You are in a job where you're going to be raged at. In the workplace, I say to people, "You've got to document the hell out of this. You've got to make sure you don't take meetings alone. You save every email, you save every voicemail, you save every text message. Because if you ever need to engage in any kind of HR or litigation, you're going to need that. It's impossible to push on workplace issues without that. And even then, bullying, workplace bullying isn't against the law. It's not. And so it's really, really hard to do that much with it. Um-
- MRMel Robbins
When you say radical acceptance, what exactly does that mean? So, you're in a situation, because I saw this, uh, early in my career. I was a lawyer, I was a public defender first, and then when we moved to Boston, I worked in a large law firm.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And the amount of yelling that came out of partners' offices-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm. I can imagine. Yep.
- MRMel Robbins
... and the shaming, and the, like, just demeaning-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... way that people were spoken to and yelled at during the hallway, and it was tolerated because that dude brought a lot of money into the firm.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
That's exactly. It's what I call the golden goose phenomenon, and it's why in a workplace if you recognize the golden goose phenomenon is at play, meaning that there's no way the people higher up in leadership are going to remove this rager because they're bringing in too much money, nobody kills the golden goose-
- MRMel Robbins
Yep.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
... then you have to ask yourself, "Where do I fit into this?" I mean, in most cases, Mel, I had to say that the only po- the only good ending to it, either if you're lucky, and this is luck, when that narcissistic manager, boss, or person is removed, usually because institutional organizational settings kind of stink from the head down. Like, there's a culture that was-
- MRMel Robbins
Right, right, that tolerates it.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
... that was sort of fostered-
- MRMel Robbins
Same thing in family.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah. It's very unlikely that that will happen, but sometimes people get lucky in their one division that happens, but if that doesn't happen, most people need to ultimately leave.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
And for, it can be a huge career change. People will say, "I'm out. I cannot work like this." Some people might modify what they do. They'll say, "You know what? I am going to not make... I'm gonna take a huge financial risk and I'm gonna put out my legal shingle and I'm gonna-"
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
"... open a small practice."
- MRMel Robbins
I'm sorry, there's way too many companies and jobs out there-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yep, mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... that tolerate that bullshit, period.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
I agree. I agree, and it's taken years o- but they, it's a, in fact, workplace, this kind of workplace antagonism's a unique kind of stress that has actually been found to be quite associated with physical health problems, and I think a lot of that is because for some reason workplace narcissistic abuse keeps people up at night. And I think it's because you come home, you're exhausted, and then you wake up in the middle of the night and you're like, "I can't... What am I..." You know-
- MRMel Robbins
I'm gonna get in trouble tomorrow.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
... ruminating, ruminate, ruminate, ruminate, ruminate, and that goes on day after day after day. I mean, these are bosses with no problem calling, you know, interrupting a person on their vacation saying, "Get in here now." And, and, um, you're having to clean up their mistakes. Like you said, they take credit for your work. They gaslight. Um, these are environments of fear. It's, it's very triangulated where some people trying to get on the good side of the narcissistic person. I mean, it's chaos. It's chaos, and I have never seen anyone successfully pull it off. You'll even see in some of the higher profile Me Too narcissism scandals we've seen, people are like, "I just want to work on one film that gets an Oscar and that's gonna help my career." But you know what? You have to live with the moral injury for the rest of your life that you were part of that machine.
- MRMel Robbins
And you're not gonna change the weather in Chicago.
- 42:07 – 45:08
Tool: Gray Rocking
- MRMel Robbins
I wanna, uh, end with some tools that people can use.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
So, one of the ones that you talk about that, um, whenever I share it, I obviously credit you, that people just love this, and that's gray rock?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah. So, gray rocking and that, you know, I can't even take credit from that. Gray rocking is something that's been around for a long time and gray rocking is, gray rocking is a response to the constant baiting that happens in a narcissistic relationship. Narcissistic people love to fight, because it makes you look crazy, right? If you're getting frothed up, "Ah," now you're raging kind of like them and they're like, "Oh, you need to calm down." That's a form of gaslighting too. They get you worked up and then they look at you like you're the one who's unhinged. So, the way in some ways to bring down that baiting is just completely disengage in the most absolute... But you're n- you're not going no contact, but you're saying, "Yes-"No. Okay. I didn't know that. Sure. Now-
- MRMel Robbins
Now, let me ask you a question about this.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
Because in our family, somebody has had a situation where there was an ex blowing up their phone and Snapchat. Rage, rage, rage, rage, rage, which once I learned that this was happening, um, a lot of other young women chimed in, "Oh, well, I've had somebody do that." You know, it's been dismissed because they're drunk-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... or because they're this-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm. Yup, yup.
- MRMel Robbins
... or because they're upset, or because I'm the ex-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... or because I'm dating somebody new. And, you know, we're talking 75 texts over the course-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... of one evening. "Pick up your phone. Why aren't you? I know you're ignoring me."
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
It's abuse. That's abuse.
- MRMel Robbins
So, when it comes to that, do you... You don't respond at all because aren't they looking for the response?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
Aren't they seeking the attention?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Right. Now, you can see the situation like this with gray rocking, like you, you, you're like, "Okay, I'm not responding to this kind of stuff," the behavior's gonna escalate for a while, and that escalation scares people. So, the gray r- a- and gray rocking is, is... If you're gonna gray rock as an, as an pathway to an exit, to what's ultimately called no contact, which is a really, really stringent characteristic that a lot of people can't follow-
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
... because their families, their, they, they have to co-parent, all those things, y- you know, whatever it may be. N- full no contact is, is... When people do it, they're like, "This is great. Like, I never have to have anything to do with them again," but it's not always possible. So, the gray rocking will initially enrage the narcissistic person. If you can white-knuckle it for long enough-
- MRMel Robbins
How long?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
It depends on the person.
- MRMel Robbins
And this is, this is an excellent, excellent example for those of you-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... that are in, in a contentious divorce-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yep, yep.
- MRMel Robbins
... for those of you that are dealing with child custody issues-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
S-
- 45:08 – 47:18
Tool: Yellow rocking
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
of mine developed something called yellow rock. Tina Swithin, who, um, does amazing work in, in the space of contentious narcissistic divorce, she came up with yellow rock. And the idea of yellow rock is not so much the yes, no, like you're almo- like so dull. But it's like, yeah, sure, oh, okay, yeah, mm-hmm, great. There's emotion, there's lilt. There might even be like, "Oh, you went there? Oh, d- did you like that? Oh, d- oh, that, that's that new grocery store, right?" You're not talking about anything, but yellow rock isn't so dire. Now, in your obsessive texting example, that's a different kind of a situation because that's a case where you just don't respond.
- MRMel Robbins
Correct.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Right? And you save it all, and if it continues like that, you actually might even need to c- involve law enforcement.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, we involved, uh, Chris, my husband.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah, mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
He sent a text back-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... saying, "We'll involve"-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... "law enforcement."
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah, exactly.
- MRMel Robbins
"Knock it off."
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
So, it, it's-
- MRMel Robbins
It worked.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah, it works. It w- in many cases, but in some cases, it does not. And there's actually a threshold of the number of communications that have to happen for it to qualify to get law enforcement involved. You know, so they w- it, it can't be 10 or 20. I mean, j- it's, it's such a vast number that you're like, "Oh, so, for me to be fully traumatized is the only reason l- m- only way law enforcement will respond," and it's true. Those bars are set in a way that it's, it's hard-
- MRMel Robbins
Ridiculous.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
... to intervene. But in ordinary situations where it is a lot of the, they're trying, "Where were you on Saturday night? What were you doing? Oh, your friend coming over?" And say, "Oh, yeah, everything's fine." Like, you're, it's, it's very Stepfordy, like, "La-da-da-da-da." But i- for kids to see gray rocking parents actually is quite traumatizing. That, that devoid of emotion robotic feel is unsettling for kids. It can be unsettling in the workplace. So, with yellow rocking, I always say to people, "Have a list of in- inert, innocuous topics to talk about, the weather, the freeway's gonna be closed on Friday. It's, um, you know, g- it's, uh, can you believe it's only a month till this holiday?" Like, you, you have those topics in your back pocket, c- and then there can be a lot of that. And once they start baiting, then the next technique I recommend people use after gray or yellow rocking is I tell them,
- 47:18 – 52:23
Tool: Don’t Go D.E.E.P.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
"Don't go DEEP." And don't go DEEP means don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, that was an acronym, everybody.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah, DEEP.
- MRMel Robbins
Don't defend.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Don't d-
- MRMel Robbins
Don't explain. Don't-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Don't engage.
- MRMel Robbins
... engage.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Don't personalize.
- MRMel Robbins
What does don't personalize mean? So, can you give us an example of how this works?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
So, uh, so, don't... So, a person's coming at you with, like, "Oh, gray, gray, yeah, I can see. Oh, what is this, one of your loser friends having one of their stupid fundraisings for one more of their causes?" Like, "Uh, yeah, your friend's, like, an idiot loser, so sure, yeah, uh-huh. Well, let's, let's give, let's give this person more money. You know, I don't even know why you're friends with these people." Like, "Is that how pathet-" So you're la-da-da-blah, blah, lah, lah, lah, lah, lah, lah. The noise, they come at you, trying to isolate you, right? You don't defend your friends. You don't say, "Oh, she means so well. She's raised so much money for this community." You don't explain what the charity does, you don't engage in the back-and-forth, and you don't make it about you. This has nothing to do with you. That has to do with their insecurity-
- MRMel Robbins
Their tem- their temper tantrum.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Their, their tantrum, their insecurity, their being set off, and you s- and you, you... Oh, this is where it's, this is a hard one. Uh, uh, people say, "I told Mary I was going. I RSVP'd. I'm gonna be going." Do you say, "I'm sorry"?
- MRMel Robbins
No, why would... What did you do wrong?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
I don't know 'cause I, I'm conditioned to. I don't know.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yes, you are. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
I just wanna keep you happy. I don't know.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
I am sorry. (laughs) Eh, I if I... Girl, if I could set up an app that could identify every time... (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
I think you need to shock me.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
(laughs) No. That-
- MRMel Robbins
My lord.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
E- that every time a person says I'm sorry, they did get, like, a little shock through their watch or, like, a ring.
- MRMel Robbins
That is the worst thing you could say to a narcissist, "I'm sorry"?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
I- it, well, but, no, it's the worst thing you could say for yourself. Why are you apologizing? We're back to the guilt.
- MRMel Robbins
Because I have been conditioned-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
'Cause you're... Correct.
- MRMel Robbins
... to believe that if I do something that makes you mad or disappointed or isn't what you want...... that I'm bad.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Y- that's, that's you. That's a you thing. That's your work, because-
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, my God, I have so much work to do.
- 52:23 – 58:20
Trauma bonds with a narcissist
- MRMel Robbins
what are some of the key takeaways that you hope people have gained, um, from this, Doctor?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
You're not to blame for someone else's personality. You can't change them. Um, y- you have the right to your independent, autonomous life, separate from other people, opinions, feelings, needs. Um, and above all else, I wanna let people know that there are many people out there who hear this and say, "Well, I gotta go. I gotta leave this relationship." And some people do. They, they end contact or really suspend contact with a family member or even a parent. They, um, they may end a romantic relationship. They may start doubting their own marriage. They may even consider quitting a job, or whatever. But then, they s- they start saying, "But I wanna go back," "But I miss the person," "But I'm having second thoughts," "But we're getting back together," "But I showed up at the family wedding anyhow." What I tell people is, "This isn't about an all or nothing, and you will be pulled back." Because there's no talking your way out of a trauma bond. A trauma bond is something you feel. Some people will say, "The idea of no longer talking to my mom," or, "No longer being in this marriage, I feel sick."
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
"Like, I can't do this. I f- literally feel sick inside"-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
"... inside of me." So, that's a real physical feeling. And it's understanding that these incompatibilities leave us feeling uncomfortable. We do get pulled back in. We, the, it's for me to keep saying to people, "This is not, this, this is not going to change, and it is not your fault," and it is all internal to them, and this is what the apparatus looks like. But even on those days when you feel sad, because there's, this is a landscape characterized by grief. There's so, "This was my childhood, I never got to have a real childhood. I didn't ever let my dreams launch. I got into a crappy marriage. I may never have a normal adult relationship. I screwed up my kids." This is real grief. There's no soft peddlings. You don't get a do-over on this stuff.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
And so, for people, some of these negative emotions do echo through a lifetime.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
And I, it's not, I'm, I wish I could sit here and say something fluffy, like, "And one day, you'll never think about this again." What I wanna tell people is that one, you're going to learn to co-exist with that pain, and you're slowly gonna find your voice. And it's almost like if you had a really bad accident or injury. Every, even if you could fully do your physical therapy and heal, every so often, you're gonna step on that leg the wrong way and you're gonna be like, "Ouch," and you're reminded. And it is a, it doesn't all just go away. You start learning the workarounds, and you understand that there's gonna be good days and bad days, because I think setting an overly sunny kind of a...... path forward for healing can lead people who feel like they're not healing fast enough, feeling ashamed and as though they can't even heal right. There is no healing, right? This will take as long as it takes. There will be good days and bad, but if you're willing to give yourself permission to take yourself and reality back, there actually is a path forward. And survivors of narcissistic abuse often go on to do amazing things. They, they write amazing things. They cre- they, they, they, there's a creativity, and it's almost like a WTF of it all. Like, all right, you know, at this point, why not? Like, I survived this mess.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Why not? (laughs) And they'll do some really cool, fun ma- they'll blog. They'll, they'll self-publish books. They'll start businesses. Um, they'll go back to school. I remember one woman I worked with, she's like, "Eh, I went back to school. I was 75 when I graduated, but I finally finished college after being told I was an, a moron, a fool, an ass for 50 years." And she's like, "I'm not gonna work, but I g- I did it." And the pride that was felt. The survivor stories are remarkable. They're small, they're big. It's the person who... My favorite was a person who said (laughs) she, she, her, she was an amaze... She's an amazing cook in a malignant, narcissistic marriage many, many years. She baked his favorite cake, and she, um, gave it to, uh, people who were, um, homeless in her neighborhood. And she's like, "Eat this, 'cause I've never eaten this kind of cake," and they loved it. And so, you know, some people actually said, "I actually cooked their favorite meal and threw it out." Some people don't like to throw out food. I get that. Um, some people had a big blowout party on the night of what would have been their malignant, narcissistic ex's birthday party and said, "I gotta put this behind me." It, the, the, this can take so many forms. Some people go back to school and become therapists. Some people become coaches. They help people through it.
- MRMel Robbins
But you know what I love about this, Dr. Ramani, is that, like, n- when you understand something-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... and there is this intense fascination with narcissism, and so many of us-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... have experiences, uh, with it. But when you understand it, and when you have a few simple tools-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... from an expert like you, it does become an opportunity for growth.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
It becomes an opportunity for self-awareness-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... for self-compassion, that just because the weather in Chicago can't be changed, and you can't change what that other person is doing-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... that multiple things can be true.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
But the thing that we know is always true is that if you're willing to put in the work, you can make the situation that you're in better for yourself-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... because you can change the way that you show up. You can change the boundaries that you have.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Correct.
- 58:20 – 1:08:48
Key Concept: Finding tiny acts of rebellion
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
those ways, 'cause they're, I call them these tiny acts of rebellion, the way you squeeze in... 'Cause if you exercise and they know about it, they're like, "Oh, why are you wasting time? You must have a lot of leisure time if you can exercise." But then you realize, like, "Ooh, I have 18 minutes before they get home," and you jump on the treadmill, or you throw on the yoga, um, channel on your whatever, YouTube you watch, and you, you do it. Like, you find these tiny acts of rebellion that you could do. You, every d- you have a goal, and each day for 365 days, you do one thing towards the goal, and maybe you finish that degree online. And here's the win, never ever tell the narcissistic person your dreams. Never ever tell them your aspirations because they will mock you, and they will dismantle you, and they will even try to get in the way of them. The rebellion is to go and pursue those dreams without them ever knowing. And once you've done it, you've done it. You don't even have to share it. And what's really fun to watch is when the narcissist hears from someone else, like, "Wow, did you hear about that whole thing they set up?" And the person will be like, "Why didn't you tell me?" And they're like, "Ah, it didn't seem like that big a deal." And (grunts) you just get it in there. But never share your dreams with them.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow, I'm thinking about this moment in a speech where I was in the audience, and, um, it was a women's conference. And this woman stood up, and she was talking about how she had this massive dream of getting this degree online and that her husband wouldn't allow it.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Nope.
- MRMel Robbins
And I remember thinking how sad it was to realize that she was trapped in this life.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And, you know, the thing that I want to say is that these tiny acts of rebellion, if you feel like you're trapped in this and there's multiple things that are true, these tiny, 18-minute (laughs) moments of rebellion are almost like digging a tunnel.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
They are.
- MRMel Robbins
That allow you over time to escape.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
Because every time you do something that is for you first-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... and you don't feel the need to share it-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... or get permission and you keep showing up every day, and you do that exercise, or you do that meditation, or you take that online class-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... and you don't seek the permission or validation from that narcissist. If you start to exercise that muscle-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... at some point, you're gonna wake up-
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... and you're gonna realize, oh, my God, I'm actually above ground and outside the jail.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yep.
- MRMel Robbins
Why did I stay in there?
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
I, yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay, I'm not gonna validate myself.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
But I'm ready to make a big change now.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
Uh, you, you start to say, "I can do stuff." You, you, by doing tho- those tiny acts of rebellion, there's something in you that gets awoke, and you're like, "I can do stuff, and maybe I am strong enough to do this or to do that." You meet other people. You get validated in different ways. You get the A on the paper, and the professor says, "Wow, like, why aren't you going to graduate school?" After all those years of being invalidated, to have someone say, "There's something special about you." Just that one conversation can change the course of somebody's life, but that's only gonna happen when you do all these tiny acts of rebellion, and that might be one of the most important steps to survivorship. This isn't about, like, storming out and like, "I'm leaving you?" But you can do all these little things.Because I know leaving can feel overwhelming for people.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- RDDr. Ramani Durvasula
And whatever that might be, it might be reading an entire set of literature, it might be learning another language, you can do that on your own time too. But whatever it looks like, that somehow getting that new skill, actualizing that dream and not letting them know about it or harm it, can e- i- it can awaken something in you, the real you, that may actually allow you to start really distancing from this relationship, if not physically, definitely psychologically.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, I just also, like, felt really empowered because I realized that's also something that we can do as friends and sisters-
Episode duration: 1:08:48
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