The Hidden Signs Someone's In a Narcissistic Relationship | The Mel Robbins Podcast

Mel Robbins 0:00 (ticking sound) A lot of people want to know, am I more prone to dating a narcissist if I grew up in a household with a narcissistic caregiver?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 0:10 That just because you came from a narcissistic family system, it doesn't mean you're damaged. And remember, narcissistic people are very victimized. How come everyone's out to get me? How come life's so unfair to me? Do you say I'm sorry?

Mel Robbins 0:21 No. Why would you? What did you do wrong?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 0:22 I don't know, 'cause I, I'm conditioned to.

Mel Robbins 0:24 (laughs) .

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 0:24 I don't know.

Mel Robbins 0:26 Okay, so now we are at the point of the podcast where I feel like we have popped the popcorn and everybody listening is going, oh God. (upbeat music) . Okay, everybody, buckle up, get the pens out. We are ready for a rocking hour. I cannot wait because Dr. Ramani is back.

Mel Robbins 0:47 You just absolutely flooded us with questions about narcissism, surviving narcissism, healing from narcissism, and most importantly, dating. Dating, workplace, we are digging into this. And so I cannot wait to jump right in. Thank you for coming back.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:04 Thank you.

Mel Robbins 1:04 Here's where I want to start, because we got a lot of questions about this after doing our first episode about, uh, parental narcissism.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:12 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:12 And growing up with a narcissistic parent or sibling in your house, how it affects you as an adult, how to heal from it. A lot of people want to know, uh, am

Mel Robbins 1:22 I more prone to dating a narcissist if I grew up in a household with a narcissistic caregiver?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:28 Well, it certainly sets you up with a vulnerability because it, it almost normalizes some of it, and it also takes away, it, it, it robs a person from their sense of self and the fact that they even have the right to express their needs. Well, that's a perfect trap because now if you're not expressing your needs, the narcissistic person you need isn't going to meet them anyhow. You can easily get caught. Repeat that same trauma bonded dance of justifying this person's behavior, feeling that it's your fault. Like, it really, it sort of indoctrinates you into accepting this behavior in a partner.

Mel Robbins 2:01 Because it's familiar from childhood?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 2:02 It's familiar and it's also a, it, it becomes almost a psychologically a way of relating to the world. In fact, I've worked with more than a few survivors who said, "You know, I met a healthy person. They were kind and empathic and generous of spirit and believed in me, and I convinced myself I was bored with them."

Mel Robbins 2:23 Wow, that's so true.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 2:25 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 2:26 Like, it is true that-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 2:28 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 2:28 ... there are lots of, like, we all have a friend or sibling that you're like, they're such a nice person.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 2:33 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 2:34 Or the, the person that you're supposed-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 2:35 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 2:35 ... to be with is right in front of you.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 2:38 And I tell them, if you've come from, come through a narcissistic family system and you meet someone, and I, boring is not even the right word. Like, you're not, I hate to say this, that you're not triggered by them, right? But you feel like it's not, it's not what you think love is supposed to be, which is exciting, but think about what your life was as a child. It was a roller coaster. Good days, bad days, I'm going to win them over. Today's the day. Oh my gosh, who's going to come home today? They have a candy bar in their briefcase for me. It's a good day. Like, that kind of up and down and, and just anticipation almost makes it that an adult relationship that's characterized by that rollercoastery vibe is what you've conflated with love. So when a survivor tells me, "I've met someone, like, I don't know, it's not all the za-za-zoo," I'm like, okay, this might be a keeper. Let's just keep going. Sadly, what I've witnessed, Mel, is that many people had to go through the brutality of a narcissistic relationship, and then after having to leave that and shut it down, were they then able to hold space for someone who treated them with kindness and generosity? It breaks their hearts. They think, what would my life have been if this was the kind of person I had been with all along? But it's almost as though their psyche couldn't accommodate that because nobody's teaching this in school.

Mel Robbins 3:53 Well-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 3:53 People learn about this after they've been hurt by it.

Mel Robbins 3:55 Well, and you know, the thing that you just said that I think is really important is whatever that roller coaster was, that was your experience of love because you were a child.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 4:03 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 4:04 That's what you know.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 4:05 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 4:06 And so it makes a lot of sense to me. So for those folks that are listening, we got a, we got this question a ton. What... Well, first let me ask this. So if you listened to the first episode or you already know that you grew up in a household with a narcissistic parent, what are the few things that you need to do for your own healing so that you can be open to and interested in somebody who's healthy-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 4:35 Healthy for you.

Mel Robbins 4:35 ... even though you've never been with somebody who is?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 4:38 Number one is being willing to see it clearly. This is a painful, like, it's that painful awareness of, oh my gosh, my parent i- is, is, is, is narcissistic. My parent is antagonistic. I have a parent who has no empathy. Because it almost is like leaning into the sort of, a lot of people say, who had narcissistic parents said, "I felt a certain shame about my childhood. Like, I knew something wasn't quite right here, but I didn't know what it was." No kid wants to be the odd kid out, right? Nobody wants to be the kid who has the fighting parents or something's not quite right in their home, and I think with people who grow up in those kinds of home, it was sort of like fake, like to the world, like maybe your friends would come over and your parent would actually be really charming, but then when your, everyone was out of the house, your parent was a rager. That kind of inconsistency really would leave people feeling like, what is wrong with me?

Mel Robbins 5:25 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 5:26 So it becomes, it really becomes doing th- It is about therapy or doing the deep dive of, of being willing to sort of look at these patterns with a very open eye no matter how painful it is, that just because you came from a narcissistic family system, it doesn't mean you're damaged. It's not an indictment of you, which unfortunately a lot of people feel. And then to really take a good hard look at where has this hijacked you? Where has this s- robbed you of your autonomy, of your identity-

Mel Robbins 5:54 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 5:54 ... of who you are? Like, do the hard work. Some of that can even be done, if not just through therapy, through journaling. Just being aware of where that happened, how you talk to yourself, how you apologize for things you didn't even do wrong, how you're constantly putting yourself down, self-gaslighting yourself, like, "Oh, I don't know what I'm talking about. Don't listen to me." How many people do that reflexively? That's a throwback to that childhood. It's about getting your house in order.... before you start going out there and basically replicating those cycles.

Mel Robbins 6:21 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 6:22 Unfortunately, that's not what people are taught to do. And a lot of people in their early 20s don't have the time, the volition, or the money to go into therapy.

Mel Robbins 6:30 Yeah. Are there personality types that are more prone to, like, having a narcissist come into their lives?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 6:37 Well, I think that there's definitely the, um, the, a person who's, who comes from a narcissistic childhood. There's a vulnerability there. Listen, I'm going to say this, Mel, to make this almost as an easy question answer, everyone is. There's not a person out there who's not. And I'll tell you why, because at first blush, narcissistic people are charming, charismatic, curious, confident. They're, they, comforting even. They feel like they'll, they'll, they can take care of things. So, if these people were coming in on date one screaming at you and cursing at you, probably not going to be a date two. The, there, there's a whole phenomenon of love bombing.

Mel Robbins 7:12 Well, okay, we'll get to love bombing in a minute, but how the hell are you supposed to spot one then if you're dating?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 7:19 You, because, here this is where the trauma bond becomes a problem. So, what the trauma bond res- results in, not just an alternation between good and bad, but you justify the bad days, right? So, "Oh, Dad just had a bad day at work. I, I, uh, um, Mommy's just really tired. We're all pushing her to..." and then you internalize that blame. "Daddy had a bad day at work, I have to be good." You know, "Mom, Mom's just really tired, I have to help." So, like, they're trying to ad- but they justi- you justify, justify. Think of everyone in a narcissistic relationship. He had a tough childhood, has a competitive job, the deals haven't been coming through the way they want. They just want what's best for us. I mean, I, I mean, the, the, the justifications go on forever. But the justifications keep the toxic dynamic in place, and that's another core pillar of that trauma bond, right? So, justify, justify, justify. And so, everyone's vulnerable, because you meet someone and you're attracted to them, and they are charming and interesting, or whatever it is that appeals to you about them, and they stay that way four weeks, six weeks, eight weeks, three months sometimes. Now you're in. You're falling in love with this person. Now the stuff starts to gurgle up, those, those proverbial red flags, okay?

Mel Robbins 8:28 And what are the proverbial red flags when you're dating?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 8:31 Well, okay, the red flags might be things like, um, getting snappy when you give them a little bit of feedback. Um, being really entitled when you go to a restaurant with them.

Mel Robbins 8:40 So, watch how they treat waiters?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 8:41 Um, watch how they treat waiters. Watch how they treat anyone. How they talk about other people. Um, contemptuous dismissal. How, how do they get along with your friends? Um, it may, may be that one of your friends, the one friend that might have called them out on someone might be the one friend they say, "You know, I, I don't, I don't think that friend's good for you," kind of thing. So, those things will pop up. But here's the thing, Mel. I was talking with someone recently on my own podcast, and in her situation, she didn't have a single, six years of marriage, not one red flag. I'm gonna make people listen to my podcast to hear what happened when the, when the red flags came piling in. But there're some in six years, she's like, "I am being honest with you, and people who knew me would say the same thing. There was no red flags." So, everyone, I, I'm saying this for one reason.

Mel Robbins 9:25 Why?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:25 Oh-

Mel Robbins 9:25 Like why, how, like keep going.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:27 A lot of people blame themselves. They'll say, the, one day, whether it's one year in, two years in, or 10 years in, the narcissism shows up. "There must've been red flags. I didn't see them. I must be an idiot. This is my fault. This is my fault for not seeing the red flags." And I really want to tell everyone, while some of them may out, be out there, some of them may be humming at such a low level that you're not noticing them, or they're so reminiscent of what you grew up with, they're like, "Oh my God, this is nothing compared to my mother," kind of thing.

Mel Robbins 9:54 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:54 But in the vast majority of cases the red flags were there, and it's a combination of they were, they, either people didn't know they were red flags, people justified them, or people blamed themselves immediately. Like, "I shouldn't have criticized their sweater." You know, even though it wasn't a criticism, they quickly justify. But everyone is vulnerable. Now, are some people more vulnerable? Certainly. People who grew up with a narcissistic parent or parents, they're vulnerable. People with histories of trauma, who already are sort of, might be sort of strugg- that can often result in self-devaluation and other phenomena that would lead a person less lik- you know, less likely to call out the red flags. People who, um, this is gonna be a surprising one, people who come from very happy families, with two loving parents, and just happy, happy. Those folks are vulnerable because they don't even, they can't even believe this exists. So, when there's a red flag, they'll often think like, "Well, we just loved each other through this stuff."

Mel Robbins 10:51 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 10:51 "There ain't no love in anyone through a red flag." So, they might turn to that. There are people who are going through, uh, periods of transition. So, like, on the rebound, people will sometimes meet narcissistic people. When a person moves to a new city, has moved to a new job, has experienced a major loss. These are people who are already more vulnerable, and the idea that someone new is coming into your life, especially, let's say, new city, "Whoo, wow, this is great. I'm meeting someone," and you kind of go into the rom-com mindset rather than, like, "Mm, this is moving a little bit quickly," that kind of thing. People who are in a rush are vulnerable. People like-

Mel Robbins 11:25 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 11:25 ... "I, uh, my biological clock is ticking. All my friends are getting married," that kind of thing. Those are folks who may be vulnerable, saying, "Okay, I'm just gonna have to settle here, 'cause I really want to be a parent, and this is who's in front of me right now." And I can't tell you how many people have gotten roped into narcissistic relationships because they felt a time clock ticking around marriage, around settling down, around having a child. They, they really felt like it's, "If I don't do this, I don't want to end up like my friend who en- ended up never meeting anyone," and regrets that. I'm, um, I tell you one thing they regret, probably don't regret-

Mel Robbins 11:58 Is meeting that person.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 11:58 ... is exactly. And so, all of these kinds of other sorts of vulnerability factors that a person can bring in can, uh, increase the vulnerability beyond what we all have. And I think that the idea that all of us, that, that somebody's not vulnerable, I mean, again, the u- unicorns out there.... are the people who really, really get, like s- almost see it right away. Listen, I do this. This is what I do. I'm still, I'm still s- still played. People still come into my life. I'm getting better at it. But to get better at it, Mel, I almost had to become... I feel at times there's a part of me that's become kind of closed off.

Mel Robbins 12:38 So, is there one or two red flags that, for you, are just non-negotiable? Like, the second you see that one, you are like, "Nope." 'Cause when you talk about being closed off, 'cause you are extremely warm, and extremely smart, and extremely generous. And so, I'm just wondering, 'cause I think that what's scary about hearing all this is that by the time you kinda wake up and you're three months into something or three years-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 13:09 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 13:09 ... into something-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 13:10 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 13:10 ... and all the bonds are there, and the lease is signed, and you're married, or you have kids, or now you've moved in together, or now you're like-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 13:19 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 13:19 ... got all the chemicals flooding your body-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 13:22 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 13:22 ... because you're falling in love, and you start to hear these red flags. You know, I never would have had the strength, I think, when I think, like-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 13:31 Most people don't.

Mel Robbins 13:31 You know what I mean? To be like, "Oh, okay, time to end this."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 13:33 No, no, no, most people don't. And that's again, it's important for people to hear that, 'cause a lot of people feel foolish. Why didn't I heed the red flags? I knew it on my wedding day. I knew it. I felt it. Because when we l- you know, again, these stories are so easy to tell backwards. But at that point, it would have felt cataclysmic. And in a way, this was the only way you were gonna truly get the lesson. You know, it's, it's unfortunate. And I, you know, the, the issue then becomes like, when I meet somebody who's a little bit too charming, a little bit too charismatic, I shut down. I'm like, "Why? What is this?" And, and people are saying, "You're the, you're the only person I've ever met who walks away from charismatic people." Literally. I've been at gatherings and a person's just that person, and I'll, I'll, I, I... People must think I have some sort of bowel disorder, 'cause I'm like, "I have to run to the restroom." The number of times (laughs) at a social event I'll say, "I have to run to the restroom," people are like, "What did she eat?"

Mel Robbins 14:27 You know, it's interesting that you say that, because I recently had a couple things go down, both in business and life, that were just shocking betrayals, lies, stolen from, all that kind of stuff, that just knocked me over. And when I look back through my life, there is a very pronounced pattern of me being drawn like a moth to the flame to very charismatic-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:58 Hm.

Mel Robbins 14:58 ... funny, kind of rebelly people, and I get sucked right in, and then I realize once I'm, like, kind of in the inner circle-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 15:11 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 15:11 ... oh my God, this person's unpredictable.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 15:14 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 15:14 This person, like, trashes people that leave the room.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 15:17 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 15:18 This person-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 15:19 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 15:19 ... has major mood swings.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 15:20 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 15:20 And then I literally go into a mode of just twisting myself in knots to not upset the person.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 15:29 Correct. That, that, and that is actually, that's actually a, a, a trauma response.

Mel Robbins 15:34 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 15:34 Twisting yourself into knots to not u- upset the person, or even like, you know, like, "Oh, you're so great," like the fawning response. These are classic trauma responses.

Mel Robbins 15:42 And, and it took a couple really painful experiences-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 15:47 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 15:47 ... back-to-back to have me look backwards.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 15:49 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 15:49 It was almost like life hit me with a sledgehammer.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 15:52 (laughs) Yeah. And that, and I think that that's what it is, too. You know, I, G- you know and I both worked in the media and v- you in a much more profound way than me. But I have to say, over the many years I've done this, what I've always seen was the charming, charismatic, grandiose people never, ever, ever follow through on their promises. And, and to much, sometimes to almost to my fin- to my very, real financial harm and all of that. And I th- and that happened in academia, that happened in other areas of my life. And so, I think for me, those, those things have become correlated in my mind.

Mel Robbins 16:23 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 16:23 Big talker, big promise, big, big, big, all that big talk, it never comes to fruition and I got hurt by this. So, when we talk about classical conditioning, it's like Pavlov's dogs, right? The salivating dog when they, um, when they, they heard the bell. For me, it's charm and charisma means you're, you're about to d- you're about to either, um, betray me or, or you're just full of BS.

Mel Robbins 16:47 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 16:47 And so, that, but that, a lot of harm had to come to me to learn that lesson. And when I connected the dots to my own childhood and my own experiences, I saw, I could see how I got played. And like I said, now it, it comes off as a, a little bit closed off. I, I wouldn't be surprised if people would think that about me. And I do think that this is though, in order for all of us to become more narcissist resistant, we need people around us that will back us up. And where I'm really blessed, at least professionally, is a team that calls BS. They'll read emails like, "Nah. No. No. Yes. No. Yes." And then I'll go deeper in, and sometimes I'll be like, "Yeah, sure." And they'll say, "Listen, it's, it's your gig. You called that one, but we don't love this."

Mel Robbins 17:27 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:28 And so, it's, and that's, uh, did I hear that right? In fact, the other night, I had had an experience that was really uncomfortable, and it was, and I was like, "Was that uncomfortable?" And I remember my team were like, "That sucked." And I was like, "Oh." And I, and it was, th- so that you, if you have the people around you who are actually able to, to be authentic and n- and call out BS, that's also another way you become more resistant to this nonsense, versus them just like-

Mel Robbins 17:52 It's almost like having siblings that bond together, like-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:54 Healthy siblings.

Mel Robbins 17:55 Yes, healthy siblings.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:56 Not siblings that throw you under the bus.

Mel Robbins 17:57 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:58 And so, and I think that because the problem is a lot of people are surrounded by enablers, "Oh, come on, he kind of seems like a nice guy and he's cute, and he's from the same place and you're f-"

Mel Robbins 18:09 (laughs)

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 18:10 I'm like, "He's invalidating you. I don't care how cute, nobody's that cute."

Mel Robbins 18:14 Uh-huh. Uh-huh. I'm sorry, as a mom, now I'm like, "Mm-hmm."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 18:19 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 18:19 Uh, thinking about my daughters, but, so what is love

Mel Robbins 18:22 bombing?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 18:23 So, love bombing is the...It's the, the sort of the, it's where the charm and charisma turn into behavior. It's the early phase of any narcissistic relationship. We tend to only use this term for romantic relationships. It can happen in friendships, workplace, you name it, anywhere. It is this intense and overwhelming, I'm going to call it a courtship, where a person is... It's almost an obsessive fascination with you. They are, it's the person trying to win you over. The classical, kind of, trope-y love bombing is on your first date you go to the best restaurant in town, then they get the concert tickets no one can get, and on your third date, you fly to Paris, and, and you dance till 6:00 AM in, on the beach, and, and it's so exciting, and they make a scavenger hunt for you, and they get you gifts, and every Friday there's a dozen roses waiting for you. That's love bombing. It's fairytale, it's larger than life. But, it, it, it, I think if we only use that trope, we... It's tricky.

Mel Robbins 19:24 Yeah, I was just going to say-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 19:25 Because it's too simple.

Mel Robbins 19:26 ... who can afford to do that? I'm like, "That's a-"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 19:27 Well, the-

Mel Robbins 19:28 Like, how, k- how do you do that on a blue-collar budget? That's-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 19:30 You take- Yeah, I'll tell you how.

Mel Robbins 19:31 Tell me how.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 19:32 You take people to whatever's considered the best restaurant in the, you know, to your budget.

Mel Robbins 19:36 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 19:36 Like, the person's still going to think that's great. They'll pack. They'll say, "Let's go on a drive to wherever the cool place to go on the drive is."

Mel Robbins 19:42 Got it.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 19:42 "I'm going to show you the coolest view you've ever seen in your life." They'll buy things. It might not be-

Mel Robbins 19:47 It's like they'll whisk you off your feet. "I'm proving to you-"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 19:50 It's the, "Good night, princess. Good morning. I can't start my day without thinking about you." And then there'll be subtle things, like, "Take a picture where you're at. I just want to see where you're at." To me, that's, this person's stalking you. Why do they need to know where you're at? Of course, I am the anti-romance. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 20:07 Well, well-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 20:08 Do not, do not find me on Valentine's Day.

Mel Robbins 20:09 A couple of those is fine. Not, like, I, but not on the, like, second date. Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 20:13 Right, but it's a lot of that. It's, it's intense contact. But love bombing just doesn't look like that. Love bombing may become really intense, almost oversharing, really early in the game. Like, they're, they're laying out, like, these, this really deep profound true or untrue story about their past, about their childhood, about what they're feeling, and for some people, that's the play because they'll say, "Oh, my gosh. This person's sharing so much. They're so vulnerable." And now you're kind of in because they've shared so much. Love bombing can be too much time together. "Our first date lasted two weeks." Like, do you happen to have a job? Like, what kind of... I mean, (laughs) what kind of first date lasts two weeks? So, like, when people say that stuff are like, "I knew right away," um, it's like trauma bond. You know, like, the minute people say that, I know that sounds so cold, but it's actually not. It's the, it is this sort of... People might say, like, "When I first saw them, like, I was really attracted to them," but not like, "I knew right away." But the two-week first date, there's this intense intention.

Mel Robbins 21:14 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 21:14 "They spent so much time together. I canceled all my plans to be with them. You know, it was so... Their, their lease came up, and yeah, we'd only been together a month, but we decided to move in together." Fast, fast, fast, fast, fast. The fastness is also a part of love bombing. It's an intensity.

Mel Robbins 21:30 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 21:30 It's what I call an intense indoctrination into another person. They are winning you over. When you're being love bombed, you're so distracted by the sharing, by the obsession, by the texting, by the emails, by the gifts, by the quickness that you're not noticing the red flags.

Mel Robbins 21:49 So, what do you do if you're a friend? Because I think oftentimes, you know, if you see this happening to a friend, or you as the friend on the outside start to have the red flags go up-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 21:59 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 22:00 ... and you say something to your friend, "You know, maybe you guys should take it, take it a little easier."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 22:04 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 22:04 Or, "You know, he, I, I hear he wasn't that great with his last girlfriend." Or, like, you just try, like, how do you approach it if you're the friend?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 22:12 Don't drop a dime on the other person 'cause the minute you try to-

Mel Robbins 22:14 What do you mean-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 22:15 ... like, meaning say-

Mel Robbins 22:16 ... drop a dime?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 22:16 "Ah, I heard they weren't great with their other person. He's moving real fast." I- this is, it's, it's a, it's something we learned from doing treatment with substance users is, uh, do not make them defend their behavior, and make, don't make him defend the narcissist. The minute you say, "He wasn't great with his, his former partner." "Yeah, have you ever met his former partner?" And now they're defending them. Eh. Never do that. You got to find the back door.

Mel Robbins 22:37 So, how do you find the back door with a loved one?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 22:39 You say things like, you say, "How, how are... Talk, talk to me about your new relationship. How are you feeling? How are you doing?" A- and they'll tell you the story. "Wow, that's a lot happening. How do you feel about that?" You might be more likely for them to say, "Yeah, you know, it is a lot. Like, I'm trying to go with it 'cause I've always felt like I don't deserve a fairytale, and now I'm getting the fairytale." And say, "What feels fairytale-ish about that to you?" You're trying to get them to talk without getting them to defend-

Mel Robbins 23:07 Hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 23:07 ... the narcissistic person. Listen, I'm, I'm tr- basically trying right now to tr- train people to use therapy tricks here.

Mel Robbins 23:13 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 23:13 Right? But that's really what it is 'cause I think we're so quick to say, "I don't like him!" The first thing they're going to do is defend them. You've got to get them to talk about the relationship, so they start spilling on like, "Oh, I don't know about this." "What do you mean you don't know about this?" And let them talk, and say, "Well, if you're feeling like that, do you think there's..." You know? Like, h- "Do you feel okay?" Maybe, I don't know, like, take a step back. Like, you, you can do that 'cause you s- it sounds like this person cares about you so much. And, I mean, that's, that's a little manipulative, but, huh-

Mel Robbins 23:43 Yes, yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 23:43 ... if you're trying to save someone, you try all, you try all the tricks, but what you're trying to do is give them permission maybe to slow down, to pull back, or like saying, "Ah, that you, that he wants to move in right away." And say, "Hmm, you love having your own place. So, how, how do you feel about that?" Get them to talk about the thing that they value, which is the having their own place, versus, "What kind of fool wants to move into your apartment in a month?"

Mel Robbins 24:06 Right, right. I got it. That's very, very clear. So, if you're spotting this, just get them to talk.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 24:13 Get them to talk.

Mel Robbins 24:13 Open-ended questions. Do not say anything-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 24:17 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 24:17 ... that makes them defend.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 24:18 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 24:19 So interesting. I can look backwards now and see as a parent several mistakes that I made.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 24:23 Yeah, we, we, it's b- because as parents too, Mel, we're so quick in there to want to protect our kids.

Mel Robbins 24:28 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 24:28 I think nowhere else do we see that reactive, like, bad, bad, bad. And it's, it's, you know, it's almost like you can feel the clenching in yourself with saying, "Well, talk to me about this friendship." And inside you're like-... I, I hope we never talk to them again. Rah, rah, rah. You know, but you can't, because everybody, when they're ambivalent about something, and we raise the thing that they're ambivalent about as being bad, their, their, their reactive response is to defend that thing-

Mel Robbins 24:53 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 24:53 ... 'cause they're ambivalent.

Mel Robbins 24:54 It makes a lot of sense. You know, it seems like you can't talk about narcissism, particularly in the dating world, without

Mel Robbins 25:01 the term gaslighting coming up.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 25:03 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 25:03 Can you explain what gaslighting is?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 25:05 Right. So, gaslighting is a form of emotional abuse. It's a form of manipulation. But it's, it's a, it is a doubting of reality, followed up with a making someone feel impaired. And it, the, uh, so it's not just lying, right? It's not like, "I didn't move the checkbook." That's a lie.

Mel Robbins 25:27 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 25:27 Okay, they did move the checkbook. It's not, "That never happened." That's a lie. It did, all right? So that, up to the first part of gaslighting is lying. It's the second part of it that makes it gaslighting, which is the, you say, we'll use a simple example. "Did you m- move the checkbook? I always keep it in this drawer." Like, "I, no, I didn't move the checkbook." "Are you sure you didn't move the checkbook? It's always in this drawer." "You know what? Your memory has been going lately. This isn't the first time. And you know, you've been so distracted and stressed. In fact, it's affecting our relationship. Like, have you thought about talking to someone?" Now it's become a conversation about how you have memory problems and are distracted and stressed out of your mind, but they actually did move the checkbook.

Mel Robbins 26:11 You know, I had this situation, I can't really go into it in great detail, but dealing with a narcissist in a work relationship.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 26:19 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 26:19 Where I knew something was up. I would say, "Blahbity, blahbity, blah," about the issue, and they would lie.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 26:27 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 26:28 And then they would point it back, "But you've been so busy-"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 26:31 Correct. Correct. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 26:32 ... "I handled it-"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 26:32 Correct. Bingo.

Mel Robbins 26:34 ... over and o-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 26:35 Yep.

Mel Robbins 26:35 And then the more the, the closer I got to the truth, the more I noticed this rage.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 26:41 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 26:41 Like this, ugh. It's, it's, it's, in, in the narcissists that I now see that I have dealt with, whether it's in work or in life or relationships or friendships, there's always this moment that I call that, (laughs) that, you know in the Bravo, uh, New J- Real Housewives of New Jersey, that famous clip where that woman flips over the table?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 27:00 Yes. Yes, yes. And I don't even watch it-

Mel Robbins 27:02 It's like this rage.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 27:02 ... and I know that. Yeah, it's rage. Yeah, it's a- that's a great narcissistic moment.

Mel Robbins 27:06 So, narcissist-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 27:07 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 27:07 Narcissistic rage is a thing?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 27:09 Oh, it's absolutely a thing.

Mel Robbins 27:11 Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 27:11 It is a, because it's a rage that's set off by their thin-skinned, uh, reactive sensitivity. Right? Something that does not require a table being flipped over. I don't know that anything anyone could say to you would be a table being flipped over. Right? I mean, short of like, I don't know, I, I killed your best friend. Well, I suppose I might flip a table over at that point. But short of that, no table flipping. And table, these very dramatic, dysregulated gestures, and afterwards, they'll soft pedal it or downplay it, or give you a pseudo-apology and then just do it again.

Mel Robbins 27:48 Yeah. Wow. Are there other forms of gaslighting, uh, that might surprise us? You know, like, yeah, there's that sort of like lying and then flipping it back on you.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 27:59 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 27:59 But are there other forms of gaslighting that, that, that surprise people?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 28:04 You know, in some ways, there's s- there's other things that are gaslighty, like a, um, like the silent treatment, in a way-

Mel Robbins 28:12 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 28:12 ... can have a g- gaslighty feel, because you start feeling like you're losing your mind, you know? So, that's a great example of sort of a, a, a g- a gaslighty behavior. At some level, denial can have a gaslighty feel. Again, gaslighting in its purest form is the denial of reality and then telling you, your, there's something wrong with you. Right? So, that's the sequence of it. But it is a, um, but it can take these other kinds of, you know, these other sorts of, um, like, "Can't you take a joke," is a great example of gaslighting.

Mel Robbins 28:44 You're too sensitive.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 28:44 Yeah, you're too sensitive. Can't you take a joke is a great example of they insult you, all right, you have a reaction to that. Like, "That was not okay. That, that was in front of a group of people. What were you thinking?"

Mel Robbins 28:56 "I didn't mean it that way."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 28:57 I didn't mean, I, I, can't you take a joke? So now, you're this sort of hyper-sensitized, hyper-reactive person who can't take something that was allegedly a joke, even though the tone or anything. Can't you take a joke is, and again, I'll, I mean, I, I think comics do this all the time. I mean, I don't know, being a comedian in a relationship is probably a tough, 'cause they're probably, everything's a joke, right? So, um, but it's a, uh, that, that's another great example of something you don't realize is the gaslighting.

Mel Robbins 29:23 Okay, so now we are at the point of the podcast where I feel like we have popped the popcorn and everybody listening is going, oh God. Uh, they're like-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 29:31 Right.

Mel Robbins 29:31 ... I'm spotting narcissists everywhere. So let's start to talk about, what do you do?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 29:36 Right.

Mel Robbins 29:36 What do you do, um, and let's start with the example of how do you break up with a narcissist?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 29:43 Not every narcissistic relationship ends. Keep this in mind. I think that-

Mel Robbins 29:48 Should it?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 29:49 Listen, if I ran the world, sure. But I don't run the world, and I also know that for some people, they're saying, "You know what? I'm not gonna divorce my parent." There's reasons of culture, reasons of other people in my family that matter to me, um, my own sense of duty and obligation and responsibility. I see them clearly now though, and I'm gonna interact with them differently, but I'm not gonna end all contact with them.

Mel Robbins 30:12 Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 30:12 Okay? There are many people, I'd say 50% of people in narcissistic marriages stay, in long-term committed relationships, stay. And I understand that. And I don't think that there, there should be a pressure to go. 'Cause when there's that pressure to go, what I see is a lost opportunity to help that person heal and grow, even while they stay in it.

Mel Robbins 30:30 So, by the person heal and grow, you're talking about the person who's in the relationship.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 30:33 Yes. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 30:34 Because as we learned-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 30:34 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 30:34 ... in the very beginning, you can't change the weather-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 30:36 Yeah, no.

Mel Robbins 30:36 ... in Chicago, and you cannot change-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 30:38 We're not changing the narcissist. That's not even on the table.

Mel Robbins 30:41 You, well, and, and, and it's important for everybody to hear this, because you are listening...... to the world's leading expert on this, who has had a clinical practice, who has been an academic, who is sought after by everybody on this topic. You have been in clinical settings treating narcissists who have come in looking for help-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 31:00 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 31:00 ... because it now serves them, because the board of directors is now getting ready-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 31:05 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 31:05 ... to fire them, or their, their spouses ready to divorce them.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 31:09 Or they genuinely feel that everyone's out to get them. They're, they're, I mean, remember, narcissistic people are very victimized. If things aren't going their way, "Everyone's out to get me. I have a target on my back. Witch hunt, witch hunt." That kind of thing. "How come everyone's out to get me? How come life's so unfair to me?"

Mel Robbins 31:23 Yep, yep. And if you are in a clinical setting, and you are working with a narcissist who is self-motivated to try to change-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 31:34 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 31:35 ... how much can they change?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 31:37 That's a great question. So I've, I've worked with many clients like this. You're gonna get... The best we can hope for is a little bit more accountability. They'll still have rage, but they might catch it and apologize a little bit more. They are still gonna roll their eyes when they don't want to listen to someone, but they'll maybe do it less. Um, they'll huff and puff when they're made to wait in the line at the airport, but they won't scream at the gate agent. Um, you get... They, they can sprint through some stuff. You can get them to sprint through some stuff, but they're never gonna be marathoners. They're still gonna drop the ball a lot. I've worked with people who once they learned what it meant to stop being this way, which meant empathy, listening to people, being present, holding space for them, being accountable for their bad behavior, um, uh, not getting angry at people or sharing their feelings. Uh, one person say to me, "This is what this is about?" And I said, um, "Yeah." So, (laughs) he said, "I want a break in therapy for a little while." And in that period of time, he divorced his wife and broke up with his mistress. And I said, "Oh." And he's like, "You know what?" And this is... He said, "I don't want to hurt these people. I really don't want to hurt people. But I can see they're getting hurt, and you've clearly pointed that out in here that I am hurting them." So, I would say that that's... I mean, how do you think they felt? We did a lot of what's called mentalization work, forcing the person to think about how do you think that other person feels. And in a therapy room, if they scream at me, I'd be like, "Bye. Out. You're not my client anymore." So they, um, they... He said, "I don't want to hurt them, but I don't want to listen to them. I'm not interested in their BS. I'm not interested in their feelings. Like, I could do it for 10 minutes, but this hours thing, no. I want to live in my own place, and I don't miss sex, so I found someone, and I pay her every two weeks, and she comes by, and I don't want her to wake up next to me." And-

Mel Robbins 33:45 Sounds like a real peach.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 33:46 Okay, but was. I, you know what? I'd say kind of a peach. I wasn't mad at him. He, his ex-wife can now go and find... Is no longer chase... She may still wonder-

Mel Robbins 33:58 So what do you

Mel Robbins 33:59 do-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 33:59 ... "Why was I not enough?"

Mel Robbins 33:59 ... if you're the ex-wife? Because I think one of the other things that I've learned from you is that the damage that a narcissist-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:06 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 34:06 ... does-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:06 She's got to go do her work now. I mean, she's-

Mel Robbins 34:08 And what is that work?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:09 That work is learning about narcissism, understanding you're not to blame, under- It's almost like a person is gonna be less frustrated by their car breaking down if they know how their car works. Right? So now you're like-

Mel Robbins 34:24 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:25 ... "Oh, this mechanic's taking advantage of me." I'm like, "No, no, you know how to change your own carburetor." Like, I'm teaching you how to, to fix this thing.

Mel Robbins 34:32 Got it.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:32 Okay? And the fix is not in them, it's in you.

Mel Robbins 34:34 'Cause remember, you ain't changing the weather in Chicago.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:37 You're not changing weather in Chicago. And, and, and-

Mel Robbins 34:39 And ultimately, the person that you treated that would do these very intense-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:43 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 34:43 ... visualization exercises to try to understand empathy, the only thing that happened is that he gained the knowledge to go, "I'm not doing that."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:52 And here's the thing though, that to me is a form of empathy, because I'll tell you this. Instead of saying, "Well, she needs to step up. She needs to meet me where I'm at."

Mel Robbins 35:02 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:02 He's like, "I don't want to hurt these people, and I am going to keep hurting them because if you think I'm gonna sit here and listen to their BS feelings without rolling my eyes, you're high."

Mel Robbins 35:13 So Dr. Ramani, you have really helped me because there were kind of some major takeaways that I've learned from you. One being that you don't change the weather in Chicago, you're not changing the behavior of a narcissist or the brain of one, period. Second, that narcissists are made during childhood. They're not necessarily born that way.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:35 They're not. They're definitely not born that way.

Mel Robbins 35:36 The third thing is that if it's truly somebody with a narcissistic personality, they don't even know they're doing it. It's not like it is a conscious behavior.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:48 No.

Mel Robbins 35:48 It is so ingrained in, in how they behave that it's a, like a reaction to situations.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:55 Correct, but this takes... This is an important flip I need to make on that, 'cause people say, "Well, if they don't know, then I can't be mad at them." To which I say, "Yes, you can." Uh, we recently had a YouTube video. I think it's come out or it's coming out soon. Basically, it's that multiple things can be true.

Mel Robbins 36:11 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 36:11 And nowhere is that more true than in a narcissistic relationship. This person had a tough childhood. Yup. This person invalidates me every day. Yup. We have kids together. Yup. They're not going to stop doing this. Yeah. You see what I'm saying? Like-

Mel Robbins 36:29 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 36:29 ... all those things can be true at the same time.

Mel Robbins 36:31 What is the most important truth

Mel Robbins 36:33 for somebody that is listening right now who realizes, "Oh my God, I'm in a relationship with a narcissist"? What is the most important truth that you want that person to start to think about and embrace?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 36:47 This is not your fault.You're not responsible for somebody else's behavior. You're not. Not even, uh, at some level maybe we could say that about our children's behavior to a point, but even, there's a point that that goes away, right? You are not responsible for the, "Well, they're reacting to me." No, they're reacting, and there is other ways to react. So, they could, they could calmly say to you, "I, I don't like how you're talking to me and I need a minute." Can teach them those things. They can go to therapy and learn that, but they feel entitled to their reactions.

Mel Robbins 37:19 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 37:19 They feel entitled to their rage. This is how I react. I, this is who I am. And that's the other thing you'll hear. "Authentically, this is who I am." To which I want people to say, "Then maybe that doesn't work for you." And listen, Mel, there's many a person out there who waits till their youngest child turns 18 and that's the day they file for divorce.

Mel Robbins 37:36 Yep. Wow. You know, the other thing that I learned from you today that was just a game changer was when you said you are trained to believe that doing something that a narcissist doesn't like is wrong.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 37:52 Mm-hmm. Right.

Mel Robbins 37:53 That's where the guilt comes-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 37:54 Mm-hmm. That's where the guilt comes from. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 37:56 ... from. That you learned guilt because somebody made you believe that it's wrong to disappoint them.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 38:02 Correct. Correct. And, and because you learn that, you learn that as a child. That is one of those things that gets indoctrinated in childhood, and then you carry that into any relationship where there feels like there's a power difference or somebody is more dominant, and that's why people like this will repeat these cycles at work, repeat them in intimate relationships,

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 38:20 and even in friendships.

Mel Robbins 38:20 What do you do if your boss is narcissistic?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 38:22 Oh, heaven help.

Mel Robbins 38:22 Like, they're constantly raging at you. They're, you know, they're, they're unpredictable. They take credit for everything. How do you handle that situation?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 38:30 Here's the thing, workplace situations are interesting because, you know, it's, I understand people need jobs and sometimes people say, "I am never gonna find a job that pays me this much. Like, I'm making, and I'm, I'm my primary, primary bread- breadwinner in my situation." Then we go back to that radical acceptance. You are in a job where you're going to be raged at. In the workplace, I say to people, "You've got to document the hell out of this. You've got to make sure you don't take meetings alone. You save every email, you save every voicemail, you save every text message. Because if you ever need to engage in any kind of HR or litigation, you're going to need that. It's impossible to push on workplace issues without that. And even then, bullying, workplace bullying isn't against the law. It's not. And so it's really, really hard to do that much with it. Um-

Mel Robbins 39:14 When you say radical acceptance, what exactly does that mean? So, you're in a situation, because I saw this, uh, early in my career. I was a lawyer, I was a public defender first, and then when we moved to Boston, I worked in a large law firm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 39:26 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 39:27 And the amount of yelling that came out of partners' offices-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 39:30 Mm-hmm. I can imagine. Yep.

Mel Robbins 39:31 ... and the shaming, and the, like, just demeaning-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 39:34 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 39:34 ... way that people were spoken to and yelled at during the hallway, and it was tolerated because that dude brought a lot of money into the firm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 39:42 That's exactly. It's what I call the golden goose phenomenon, and it's why in a workplace if you recognize the golden goose phenomenon is at play, meaning that there's no way the people higher up in leadership are going to remove this rager because they're bringing in too much money, nobody kills the golden goose-

Mel Robbins 39:57 Yep.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 39:57 ... then you have to ask yourself, "Where do I fit into this?" I mean, in most cases, Mel, I had to say that the only po- the only good ending to it, either if you're lucky, and this is luck, when that narcissistic manager, boss, or person is removed, usually because institutional organizational settings kind of stink from the head down. Like, there's a culture that was-

Mel Robbins 40:17 Right, right, that tolerates it.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:17 ... that was sort of fostered-

Mel Robbins 40:19 Same thing in family.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:20 Yeah. It's very unlikely that that will happen, but sometimes people get lucky in their one division that happens, but if that doesn't happen, most people need to ultimately leave.

Mel Robbins 40:29 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:29 And for, it can be a huge career change. People will say, "I'm out. I cannot work like this." Some people might modify what they do. They'll say, "You know what? I am going to not make... I'm gonna take a huge financial risk and I'm gonna put out my legal shingle and I'm gonna-"

Mel Robbins 40:43 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:43 "... open a small practice."

Mel Robbins 40:45 I'm sorry, there's way too many companies and jobs out there-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:47 Yep, mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 40:47 ... that tolerate that bullshit, period.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:48 I agree. I agree, and it's taken years o- but they, it's a, in fact, workplace, this kind of workplace antagonism's a unique kind of stress that has actually been found to be quite associated with physical health problems, and I think a lot of that is because for some reason workplace narcissistic abuse keeps people up at night. And I think it's because you come home, you're exhausted, and then you wake up in the middle of the night and you're like, "I can't... What am I..." You know-

Mel Robbins 41:10 I'm gonna get in trouble tomorrow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 41:10 ... ruminating, ruminate, ruminate, ruminate, ruminate, and that goes on day after day after day. I mean, these are bosses with no problem calling, you know, interrupting a person on their vacation saying, "Get in here now." And, and, um, you're having to clean up their mistakes. Like you said, they take credit for your work. They gaslight. Um, these are environments of fear. It's, it's very triangulated where some people trying to get on the good side of the narcissistic person. I mean, it's chaos. It's chaos, and I have never seen anyone successfully pull it off. You'll even see in some of the higher profile Me Too narcissism scandals we've seen, people are like, "I just want to work on one film that gets an Oscar and that's gonna help my career." But you know what? You have to live with the moral injury for the rest of your life that you were part of that machine.

Mel Robbins 41:54 And you're not gonna change the weather in Chicago.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 41:55 You're not gonna change the weather in Chicago, and you're also gonna have to live with this blood on your hands, which is an act- a, a different level that people in workplace settings will sometimes say, "This is what I worked in. What does that make me?"

Mel Robbins 42:06 So,

Mel Robbins 42:07 I wanna, uh, end with some tools that people can use.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 42:11 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 42:11 So, one of the ones that you talk about that, um, whenever I share it, I obviously credit you, that people just love this, and that's gray rock?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 42:20 Yeah. So, gray rocking and that, you know, I can't even take credit from that. Gray rocking is something that's been around for a long time and gray rocking is, gray rocking is a response to the constant baiting that happens in a narcissistic relationship. Narcissistic people love to fight, because it makes you look crazy, right? If you're getting frothed up, "Ah," now you're raging kind of like them and they're like, "Oh, you need to calm down." That's a form of gaslighting too. They get you worked up and then they look at you like you're the one who's unhinged. So, the way in some ways to bring down that baiting is just completely disengage in the most absolute... But you're n- you're not going no contact, but you're saying, "Yes-"No. Okay. I didn't know that. Sure. Now-

Mel Robbins 43:04 Now, let me ask you a question about this.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 43:07 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 43:07 Because in our family, somebody has had a situation where there was an ex blowing up their phone and Snapchat. Rage, rage, rage, rage, rage, which once I learned that this was happening, um, a lot of other young women chimed in, "Oh, well, I've had somebody do that." You know, it's been dismissed because they're drunk-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 43:33 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 43:33 ... or because they're this-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 43:34 Mm-hmm. Yup, yup.

Mel Robbins 43:34 ... or because they're upset, or because I'm the ex-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 43:36 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 43:36 ... or because I'm dating somebody new. And, you know, we're talking 75 texts over the course-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 43:41 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 43:41 ... of one evening. "Pick up your phone. Why aren't you? I know you're ignoring me."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 43:44 It's abuse. That's abuse.

Mel Robbins 43:45 So, when it comes to that, do you... You don't respond at all because aren't they looking for the response?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 43:54 Yes.

Mel Robbins 43:54 Aren't they seeking the attention?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 43:56 Right. Now, you can see the situation like this with gray rocking, like you, you, you're like, "Okay, I'm not responding to this kind of stuff," the behavior's gonna escalate for a while, and that escalation scares people. So, the gray r- a- and gray rocking is, is... If you're gonna gray rock as an, as an pathway to an exit, to what's ultimately called no contact, which is a really, really stringent characteristic that a lot of people can't follow-

Mel Robbins 44:20 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 44:20 ... because their families, their, they, they have to co-parent, all those things, y- you know, whatever it may be. N- full no contact is, is... When people do it, they're like, "This is great. Like, I never have to have anything to do with them again," but it's not always possible. So, the gray rocking will initially enrage the narcissistic person. If you can white-knuckle it for long enough-

Mel Robbins 44:39 How long?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 44:40 It depends on the person.

Mel Robbins 44:41 And this is, this is an excellent, excellent example for those of you-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 44:44 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 44:44 ... that are in, in a contentious divorce-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 44:46 Yep, yep.

Mel Robbins 44:46 ... for those of you that are dealing with child custody issues-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 44:49 S-

Mel Robbins 44:49 ... and so you have to negotiate after divorce-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 44:51 Correct, so-

Mel Robbins 44:51 ... drop-offs or exes. And so pay attention to this, because you are correct. If you ignore them, they explode because they want your attention.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 45:01 Right.

Mel Robbins 45:01 And so now they're gonna escalate it to try to get it.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 45:04 So now, here's wh- this is where s- a, a c- uh, a friend and colleague

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 45:08 of mine developed something called yellow rock. Tina Swithin, who, um, does amazing work in, in the space of contentious narcissistic divorce, she came up with yellow rock. And the idea of yellow rock is not so much the yes, no, like you're almo- like so dull. But it's like, yeah, sure, oh, okay, yeah, mm-hmm, great. There's emotion, there's lilt. There might even be like, "Oh, you went there? Oh, d- did you like that? Oh, d- oh, that, that's that new grocery store, right?" You're not talking about anything, but yellow rock isn't so dire. Now, in your obsessive texting example, that's a different kind of a situation because that's a case where you just don't respond.

Mel Robbins 45:48 Correct.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 45:48 Right? And you save it all, and if it continues like that, you actually might even need to c- involve law enforcement.

Mel Robbins 45:53 Oh, we involved, uh, Chris, my husband.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 45:55 Yeah, mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 45:55 He sent a text back-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 45:56 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 45:56 ... saying, "We'll involve"-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 45:57 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 45:58 ... "law enforcement."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 45:58 Yeah, exactly.

Mel Robbins 45:59 "Knock it off."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 45:59 So, it, it's-

Mel Robbins 46:00 It worked.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 46:01 Yeah, it works. It w- in many cases, but in some cases, it does not. And there's actually a threshold of the number of communications that have to happen for it to qualify to get law enforcement involved. You know, so they w- it, it can't be 10 or 20. I mean, j- it's, it's such a vast number that you're like, "Oh, so, for me to be fully traumatized is the only reason l- m- only way law enforcement will respond," and it's true. Those bars are set in a way that it's, it's hard-

Mel Robbins 46:23 Ridiculous.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 46:23 ... to intervene. But in ordinary situations where it is a lot of the, they're trying, "Where were you on Saturday night? What were you doing? Oh, your friend coming over?" And say, "Oh, yeah, everything's fine." Like, you're, it's, it's very Stepfordy, like, "La-da-da-da-da." But i- for kids to see gray rocking parents actually is quite traumatizing. That, that devoid of emotion robotic feel is unsettling for kids. It can be unsettling in the workplace. So, with yellow rocking, I always say to people, "Have a list of in- inert, innocuous topics to talk about, the weather, the freeway's gonna be closed on Friday. It's, um, you know, g- it's, uh, can you believe it's only a month till this holiday?" Like, you, you have those topics in your back pocket, c- and then there can be a lot of that. And once they start baiting, then the next technique I recommend people use after gray or yellow rocking is I tell them,

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 47:18 "Don't go DEEP." And don't go DEEP means don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize.

Mel Robbins 47:24 Oh, that was an acronym, everybody.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 47:27 Yeah, DEEP.

Mel Robbins 47:27 Don't defend.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 47:28 Don't d-

Mel Robbins 47:28 Don't explain. Don't-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 47:30 Don't engage.

Mel Robbins 47:30 ... engage.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 47:31 Don't personalize.

Mel Robbins 47:32 What does don't personalize mean? So, can you give us an example of how this works?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 47:35 So, uh, so, don't... So, a person's coming at you with, like, "Oh, gray, gray, yeah, I can see. Oh, what is this, one of your loser friends having one of their stupid fundraisings for one more of their causes?" Like, "Uh, yeah, your friend's, like, an idiot loser, so sure, yeah, uh-huh. Well, let's, let's give, let's give this person more money. You know, I don't even know why you're friends with these people." Like, "Is that how pathet-" So you're la-da-da-blah, blah, lah, lah, lah, lah, lah, lah. The noise, they come at you, trying to isolate you, right? You don't defend your friends. You don't say, "Oh, she means so well. She's raised so much money for this community." You don't explain what the charity does, you don't engage in the back-and-forth, and you don't make it about you. This has nothing to do with you. That has to do with their insecurity-

Mel Robbins 48:21 Their tem- their temper tantrum.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 48:22 Their, their tantrum, their insecurity, their being set off, and you s- and you, you... Oh, this is where it's, this is a hard one. Uh, uh, people say, "I told Mary I was going. I RSVP'd. I'm gonna be going." Do you say, "I'm sorry"?

Mel Robbins 48:37 No, why would... What did you do wrong?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 48:39 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 48:39 I don't know 'cause I, I'm conditioned to. I don't know.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 48:41 Yes, you are. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 48:41 I just wanna keep you happy. I don't know.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 48:44 I am sorry. (laughs) Eh, I if I... Girl, if I could set up an app that could identify every time... (laughs)

Mel Robbins 48:51 I think you need to shock me.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 48:52 (laughs) No. That-

Mel Robbins 48:53 My lord.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 48:54 E- that every time a person says I'm sorry, they did get, like, a little shock through their watch or, like, a ring.

Mel Robbins 48:58 That is the worst thing you could say to a narcissist, "I'm sorry"?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 49:01 I- it, well, but, no, it's the worst thing you could say for yourself. Why are you apologizing? We're back to the guilt.

Mel Robbins 49:06 Because I have been conditioned-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 49:07 'Cause you're... Correct.

Mel Robbins 49:08 ... to believe that if I do something that makes you mad or disappointed or isn't what you want...... that I'm bad.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 49:15 Y- that's, that's you. That's a you thing. That's your work, because-

Mel Robbins 49:19 Oh, my God, I have so much work to do.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 49:20 ... I'm going to Mary's fundraiser. I'm going to Mary's fundraiser.

Mel Robbins 49:23 Dr. Romany.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 49:23 Why should I say, "I'm sorry"? I RSVP'd four weeks ago. I am not getting into Mary's character assassination because you feel threatened or... I'm none of that. You're just... I RSVP'd a month ago, I'm planning on going, I'll be leaving at 7:00. Done. You do it with a smile on your face.

Mel Robbins 49:40 I'll tell you, I just sit here and think, "Why on earth would you put up with that in your life?" Maybe I'm combative.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 49:49 The, the good days-

Mel Robbins 49:50 You know what I mean?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 49:51 No, no, Mel, Mel-

Mel Robbins 49:51 Maybe I'm combative, and I'm like-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 49:52 Mel.

Mel Robbins 49:52 ... "Listen, asshole, I make my own money and I'm gonna-"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 49:54 Mel. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 49:54 "... give it to whoever the fuck I want."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 49:56 It's the good days and the bad days, because you actually had a really nice dinner out on Saturday night.

Mel Robbins 50:01 And, and they had a really bad day today, and they're stressed out-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:03 Uh-huh.

Mel Robbins 50:03 ... and they had a lot of childhood trauma. Oh, my God.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:05 And, and relationships are hard, and everything's compromised, and-

Mel Robbins 50:08 (sighs) Oh, God.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:08 ... they don't really mean it and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, if you could break, uh, g- get into the multiple truths, break out of the cognitive dissonance-

Mel Robbins 50:17 Oh, yeah, those multiple truths. You're right. I, I can't be judgy, I'm sorry.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:19 ... and say, like, "I am married to a person who's-"

Mel Robbins 50:22 Who's an asshole.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:23 (laughs) Yeah, I was just about to say deeply s- (laughs) insecure and reactive, which is code for ass-

Mel Robbins 50:29 (laughs)

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:29 See, asshole is the one tidy word that gets at that. But I am married to a deeply insecure person who is a rager. That is who I'm married to.

Mel Robbins 50:37 That is a truth.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:38 It is uncomf... And say that sentence out loud. And it, we, it all relates to a concept called cognitive dissonance. We don't like it when incompatible things are happening-

Mel Robbins 50:46 That's true.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:46 ... so we, to break the tension, we justify.

Mel Robbins 50:48 That's true. So, it's like the truth, the, the, the things that are true are, "I am married to somebody-"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:54 Who's an asshole.

Mel Robbins 50:55 "... who is an insecure jerk," right?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:57 Yep.

Mel Robbins 50:57 'Cause of childhood trauma, whatever, and, and, and rages. Uh, I also have children with this person.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:01 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 51:02 I also don't wanna go through the nightmare of divorcing this person.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:06 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 51:06 I'm gonna work on my own stuff-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:08 Right.

Mel Robbins 51:09 ... in order to have that cognitive, psychological dissonance-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:13 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 51:13 ... t- in order to figure out my own stuff.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:15 But you can see after you do all that, you know how people feel? They feel sad. They're like, "This is my life?" Not-

Mel Robbins 51:20 Yes, 'cause once you actually wake up and do the work-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:23 Yes.

Mel Robbins 51:23 Oh, boom.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:23 And that's it. Yeah, that's it.

Mel Robbins 51:24 You just hit a Trojan horse. We want you to go to therapy so you become more confident and more self-aware that you actually do not deserve this-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:32 Correct.

Mel Robbins 51:32 ... this is not your fault. The weather in Chicago-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:35 The weather in Chicago.

Mel Robbins 51:35 ... is something you can't change.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:37 That's it.

Mel Robbins 51:38 Oh, sneaky. I like that.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:40 Yeah, it's all about-

Mel Robbins 51:41 I like that kind of personal empowerment.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:42 You gotta step all about... Therapy's always about finding those back doors in. You can't walk in the front door.

Mel Robbins 51:46 No.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:46 That's what we learned that in day one of therapy class. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 51:49 Yeah, that's amazing. Wow. You are so smart.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:53 Hmm, not so sure about that.

Mel Robbins 51:53 You are so smart. So, one takeaway, or like a c- what takeaways do you want, uh, people to, like, really talking to somebody who just had a wake-up call, 'cause we also learn that if you truly are somebody that has a narcissistic personality, you're thinking that none of this applies to you.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 52:11 Exactly.

Mel Robbins 52:11 But if you're, uh, listening and you're starting to think of people in your life, whether it's at work, or friendships, or siblings, or the person that you're in a relationship with, or parents, or grandparents,

Mel Robbins 52:24 what are some of the key takeaways that you hope people have gained, um, from this, Doctor?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 52:31 You're not to blame for someone else's personality. You can't change them. Um, y- you have the right to your independent, autonomous life, separate from other people, opinions, feelings, needs. Um, and above all else, I wanna let people know that there are many people out there who hear this and say, "Well, I gotta go. I gotta leave this relationship." And some people do. They, they end contact or really suspend contact with a family member or even a parent. They, um, they may end a romantic relationship. They may start doubting their own marriage. They may even consider quitting a job, or whatever. But then, they s- they start saying, "But I wanna go back," "But I miss the person," "But I'm having second thoughts," "But we're getting back together," "But I showed up at the family wedding anyhow." What I tell people is, "This isn't about an all or nothing, and you will be pulled back." Because there's no talking your way out of a trauma bond. A trauma bond is something you feel. Some people will say, "The idea of no longer talking to my mom," or, "No longer being in this marriage, I feel sick."

Mel Robbins 53:43 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:44 "Like, I can't do this. I f- literally feel sick inside"-

Mel Robbins 53:46 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:46 "... inside of me." So, that's a real physical feeling. And it's understanding that these incompatibilities leave us feeling uncomfortable. We do get pulled back in. We, the, it's for me to keep saying to people, "This is not, this, this is not going to change, and it is not your fault," and it is all internal to them, and this is what the apparatus looks like. But even on those days when you feel sad, because there's, this is a landscape characterized by grief. There's so, "This was my childhood, I never got to have a real childhood. I didn't ever let my dreams launch. I got into a crappy marriage. I may never have a normal adult relationship. I screwed up my kids." This is real grief. There's no soft peddlings. You don't get a do-over on this stuff.

Mel Robbins 54:31 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 54:31 And so, for people, some of these negative emotions do echo through a lifetime.

Mel Robbins 54:36 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 54:36 And I, it's not, I'm, I wish I could sit here and say something fluffy, like, "And one day, you'll never think about this again." What I wanna tell people is that one, you're going to learn to co-exist with that pain, and you're slowly gonna find your voice. And it's almost like if you had a really bad accident or injury. Every, even if you could fully do your physical therapy and heal, every so often, you're gonna step on that leg the wrong way and you're gonna be like, "Ouch," and you're reminded. And it is a, it doesn't all just go away. You start learning the workarounds, and you understand that there's gonna be good days and bad days, because I think setting an overly sunny kind of a...... path forward for healing can lead people who feel like they're not healing fast enough, feeling ashamed and as though they can't even heal right. There is no healing, right? This will take as long as it takes. There will be good days and bad, but if you're willing to give yourself permission to take yourself and reality back, there actually is a path forward. And survivors of narcissistic abuse often go on to do amazing things. They, they write amazing things. They cre- they, they, they, there's a creativity, and it's almost like a WTF of it all. Like, all right, you know, at this point, why not? Like, I survived this mess.

Mel Robbins 55:50 (laughs)

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 55:50 Why not? (laughs) And they'll do some really cool, fun ma- they'll blog. They'll, they'll self-publish books. They'll start businesses. Um, they'll go back to school. I remember one woman I worked with, she's like, "Eh, I went back to school. I was 75 when I graduated, but I finally finished college after being told I was an, a moron, a fool, an ass for 50 years." And she's like, "I'm not gonna work, but I g- I did it." And the pride that was felt. The survivor stories are remarkable. They're small, they're big. It's the person who... My favorite was a person who said (laughs) she, she, her, she was an amaze... She's an amazing cook in a malignant, narcissistic marriage many, many years. She baked his favorite cake, and she, um, gave it to, uh, people who were, um, homeless in her neighborhood. And she's like, "Eat this, 'cause I've never eaten this kind of cake," and they loved it. And so, you know, some people actually said, "I actually cooked their favorite meal and threw it out." Some people don't like to throw out food. I get that. Um, some people had a big blowout party on the night of what would have been their malignant, narcissistic ex's birthday party and said, "I gotta put this behind me." It, the, the, this can take so many forms. Some people go back to school and become therapists. Some people become coaches. They help people through it.

Mel Robbins 57:03 But you know what I love about this, Dr. Ramani, is that, like, n- when you understand something-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 57:08 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 57:09 ... and there is this intense fascination with narcissism, and so many of us-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 57:13 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 57:13 ... have experiences, uh, with it. But when you understand it, and when you have a few simple tools-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 57:20 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 57:20 ... from an expert like you, it does become an opportunity for growth.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 57:25 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 57:25 It becomes an opportunity for self-awareness-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 57:27 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 57:27 ... for self-compassion, that just because the weather in Chicago can't be changed, and you can't change what that other person is doing-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 57:36 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 57:36 ... that multiple things can be true.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 57:38 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 57:38 But the thing that we know is always true is that if you're willing to put in the work, you can make the situation that you're in better for yourself-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 57:47 Yes.

Mel Robbins 57:48 ... because you can change the way that you show up. You can change the boundaries that you have.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 57:52 Correct.

Mel Robbins 57:53 You can change the way that you internalize things or not.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 57:57 A- b- yeah, and people who are going through these relationships are sometimes thinking, "I almost don't want to be happy because it's such a contrast to what I'm in in this relationship." So, it's almo- it's this sense of, "Okay, maybe I'll just gonna, I'm gonna d- I'm not gonna take care of me because me not taking care of me fits." It's again that making it all fit. I say find

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 58:20 those ways, 'cause they're, I call them these tiny acts of rebellion, the way you squeeze in... 'Cause if you exercise and they know about it, they're like, "Oh, why are you wasting time? You must have a lot of leisure time if you can exercise." But then you realize, like, "Ooh, I have 18 minutes before they get home," and you jump on the treadmill, or you throw on the yoga, um, channel on your whatever, YouTube you watch, and you, you do it. Like, you find these tiny acts of rebellion that you could do. You, every d- you have a goal, and each day for 365 days, you do one thing towards the goal, and maybe you finish that degree online. And here's the win, never ever tell the narcissistic person your dreams. Never ever tell them your aspirations because they will mock you, and they will dismantle you, and they will even try to get in the way of them. The rebellion is to go and pursue those dreams without them ever knowing. And once you've done it, you've done it. You don't even have to share it. And what's really fun to watch is when the narcissist hears from someone else, like, "Wow, did you hear about that whole thing they set up?" And the person will be like, "Why didn't you tell me?" And they're like, "Ah, it didn't seem like that big a deal." And (grunts) you just get it in there. But never share your dreams with them.

Mel Robbins 59:28 Wow, I'm thinking about this moment in a speech where I was in the audience, and, um, it was a women's conference. And this woman stood up, and she was talking about how she had this massive dream of getting this degree online and that her husband wouldn't allow it.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 59:42 Nope.

Mel Robbins 59:43 And I remember thinking how sad it was to realize that she was trapped in this life.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 59:53 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 59:54 And, you know, the thing that I want to say is that these tiny acts of rebellion, if you feel like you're trapped in this and there's multiple things that are true, these tiny, 18-minute (laughs) moments of rebellion are almost like digging a tunnel.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:12 They are.

Mel Robbins 1:00:12 That allow you over time to escape.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:15 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:00:15 Because every time you do something that is for you first-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:19 Yes.

Mel Robbins 1:00:19 ... and you don't feel the need to share it-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:21 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:00:21 ... or get permission and you keep showing up every day, and you do that exercise, or you do that meditation, or you take that online class-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:28 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:00:28 ... and you don't seek the permission or validation from that narcissist. If you start to exercise that muscle-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:34 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:00:35 ... at some point, you're gonna wake up-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:37 Yes.

Mel Robbins 1:00:37 ... and you're gonna realize, oh, my God, I'm actually above ground and outside the jail.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:42 Yep.

Mel Robbins 1:00:42 Why did I stay in there?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:43 I, yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:00:43 Okay, I'm not gonna validate myself.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:46 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:00:46 But I'm ready to make a big change now.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:48 Uh, you, you start to say, "I can do stuff." You, you, by doing tho- those tiny acts of rebellion, there's something in you that gets awoke, and you're like, "I can do stuff, and maybe I am strong enough to do this or to do that." You meet other people. You get validated in different ways. You get the A on the paper, and the professor says, "Wow, like, why aren't you going to graduate school?" After all those years of being invalidated, to have someone say, "There's something special about you." Just that one conversation can change the course of somebody's life, but that's only gonna happen when you do all these tiny acts of rebellion, and that might be one of the most important steps to survivorship. This isn't about, like, storming out and like, "I'm leaving you?" But you can do all these little things.Because I know leaving can feel overwhelming for people.

Mel Robbins 1:01:28 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:01:28 And whatever that might be, it might be reading an entire set of literature, it might be learning another language, you can do that on your own time too. But whatever it looks like, that somehow getting that new skill, actualizing that dream and not letting them know about it or harm it, can e- i- it can awaken something in you, the real you, that may actually allow you to start really distancing from this relationship, if not physically, definitely psychologically.

Mel Robbins 1:01:56 You know, I just also, like, felt really empowered because I realized that's also something that we can do as friends and sisters-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:02:05 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:02:05 ... and siblings, and seeing other people that are in these situations-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:02:11 Correct.

Mel Robbins 1:02:11 ... validating somebody, you know, not being, not doing the thing that I probably would have done in the past, which is, "Why don't you leave him?"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:02:17 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:02:17 Like, "Why don't you cut him off?"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:02:18 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:02:19 Like, just validating the small moves of independence and rebellion-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:02:22 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:02:22 ... that somebody's making, and being an a- being somebody who is an ally in that-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:02:27 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:02:27 ... is a way that you can support someone. Another way you can do that is you can listen, uh, to, to this podcast. You can share this podcast. Uh, you can listen to Navigating Narcissism.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:02:39 Yes, you can.

Mel Robbins 1:02:39 Follow that podcast. And what other resources-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:02:43 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:02:43 ... do you have for people who now are like, "Oh my gosh, where do I start?"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:02:47 Mm-hmm. Yeah, so two, one, one thing is I'm always gonna encourage people, go to my YouTube channel, because there you have a vast library of anything you ever wanted to know about narcissism.

Mel Robbins 1:02:58 We will link all of this, everybody, in the show notes. We will have time codes. If you're listening to this, the entire long cut is up on YouTube. So please, please, please, you will get a direct link-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:03:10 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:03:10 ... to your website, to your YouTube channel-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:03:12 Yep.

Mel Robbins 1:03:12 ... to everything, so keep telling them, uh, the podcast.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:03:15 And, and I also, for people who want to go in even deeper, because I think for, you know, we could talk about narcissism till the cows come h- come home, but there's a point at which it starts feeling like navel-gazing, because people are saying, "Okay, I got this." I mean, some folks who've watched my YouTube could probably teach their own classes on narcissism now, or read my books or anything like that. And so some folks want to go deeper and focus on their own healing. They're like, "Okay, enough. Here, once again, everyone's talking about the narcissist. How's about we talk about me?"

Mel Robbins 1:03:40 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:03:40 And so I have a subscription program on healing from narcissistic abuse. It's a r- it's, I, I'm very proud of this program, because every month, people who are in this program, they get a workshop, they get a Q&A, they get three journal prompts a week. Um, i- i- it is a, there's a community platform that's moderated, and so they're getting all this, and, ah, some months we just add other stuff to it. There's a- i- and if you join, even if you join now, you have access to all these other special add-ons on, like, specially made videos just on sort of orienting people-

Mel Robbins 1:04:11 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:04:11 ... to, like narcissism 101 type of stuff. It's all there. And again, you can j- you can join it month to month. If people don't like it, they c- there's no long-term commitment. But I would say w- you'll have that link to click that link and join it if you really want to do the deeper-

Mel Robbins 1:04:23 What's the program called, Dr. Ramani?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:04:25 It's called Healing... It, it's basically, it says Healing from Narcissistic Abuse.

Mel Robbins 1:04:29 Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:04:29 And, um, the people on this platform are amazing. What's really amazing is some of them have said, you know, they did it six, seven months, and they said, "You know what? I'm good." Like, "I'm in a v- much stronger place." And then they're like, "I don't need to be on here anymore." Like, it's g- and some of them use it as an adjunct to therapy. So they're going to therapy, but they take the journal prompts to therapy. It's, it's, it's a, a very affordable price point, so people can get in and get so much content, which you'd never be able to get at this price just for even one of the workshops. So I think it's r- and, and you get this sense of community and conti- continuity. And then I have books. I have, uh, two books, Should I Stay or Should I Go?: Surviving a Relationship with a Narcissist, and Don't You Know Who I Am?: Staying Sane in an Era of Entitlement, Civility, and, and Narcissism, I think. And so, I should know the title of my own book, but you can get those on, on anywhere. Go to your local bookseller-

Mel Robbins 1:05:19 We will link to it all.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:05:21 ... link to them all, and I'll have a new book out g- I'm gonna be, uh, come on your podcast again and talk about that-

Mel Robbins 1:05:25 Absolutely, you will.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:05:26 ... in September 2023. It's a b- v- I'm very proud of this book. It's still, we're editing and all that, but on healing. Instead of just talking about the narcissist, talk about what you can do for yourself, 'cause I think that's the more important part of this conversation. So join us on our healing platform, come listen on YouTube, definitely listen to the podcast, 'cause it's really interesting to hear other people's stories.

Mel Robbins 1:05:46 Ah, Dr. Ramani, you're amazing.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:05:49 Well, thank you, Mel, you're really-

Mel Robbins 1:05:50 I, I can't believe I learned even more from you today.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:05:52 Good. That's, that, that's the idea.

Mel Robbins 1:05:54 And what I love about what I learned today is that it will help me with the healing part of this.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:06:00 Yes, that's the key, 'cause you know what? Listen. I am telling you now, I am amazed at how many survivors I meet, and I wish my students when I taught at the university could have given me as good a rundown. Like, they're giving me, like, they get this. So I'm like, "Okay, you get this." Now, like you said, even if I get it, that's not enough. I still feel guilty. I still feel pulled two ways. I still feel this sick inside. The healing is about being compassionate, if you will, with that sick you feel inside, but slowly giving yourself permission to, little by little, disconnect. It's n- you're not gonna do it all at once, but month by month, we're guiding people to step back little by little. Sometimes it's two steps forward, I mean three steps forward, two steps back, but at least that's one step up. And it's, it's a process. As a survivor myself, more days than not, I feel good, but there are moments I don't, and I feel like I have no right to even be talking to people about this. And then I'm like, oh, maybe because I say that, I z- I do have every right to talk to people about this. And it's a, you know, i- this is a journey into not only humility, but it's about seeing yourself and recognizing this is an issue that's affecting everyone in the world.

Mel Robbins 1:07:13 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:07:13 This is a global issue. We are making narcissists our heroes. They get all of our attention. They suck all the oxygen out of the world. Let's face it, whether it's in celebrity, politics, business, athletics, their bad behavior is the stuff that we are constantly paying attention to. Imagine, imagine paying attention to people who are well-regulated, warm, kind-

Mel Robbins 1:07:38 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:07:38 ... and compassionate. We often view them as, we often view them through a more, I don't know, like weak lens. I actually think they're the strongest people out there. So all you agreeable people, come find me-

Mel Robbins 1:07:49 (laughs)

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:07:49 ... 'cause I do love you, especially you agreeable introverts. That's my tribe.

Mel Robbins 1:07:53 Oh, man. Well, you're in my tribe too.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:07:55 Thank you.

Mel Robbins 1:07:56 I love you. Um, all right. Well, thank you, thank you, thank you for listening, and before we go, I just want to tell you, I love you, I believe in you and your ability to create a better life, so go do it. (instrumental music)