The REAL Formula For Success and Happiness | The Mel Robbins Podcast

1. 0:00 – 3:49

   Intro

   1. MRMel Robbins0:03

      Are you ready to put your happiness hat on? What if I told you that we have the OG of happiness research? So many of you are writing, and you're struggling with happiness, and what Shawn says and what he teaches on stages around the world is that you and I have happiness all wrong, the definition is wrong, that's part of the problem. He is gonna teach you that if you do these four habits for 21 days, you will be a happier you. Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. All right, let's do this thing. Okay, are you ready to put your happiness hat on? I know I am. I, um, have a really cool show for you because it's everything that I know that you love. First of all, I know that you love research and science and big credibility, and so what if I told you that we have the OG of happiness research? That's right, Harvard-educated, works with all the major corporations and brands around the world teaching his protocol, The Happiness Advantage training, which is one of the largest and most successful positive psychology training programs in the world. Not only that, but he has written three New York Times best-selling books, including The Happiness Advantage, Big Potential, and Before Happiness. His name, Shawn Achor. Now, I met him years ago, and I've always loved Shawn because he wears the academic hat, and I am the punch in the face, let's get fucking practical and understand what this shit means, because research is wonderful, but if I can't apply this shit to my life, I am going to be a miserable bitch. So today, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna get Shawn on the line, and I also have questions from listeners because so many of you are writing and you're struggling with happiness, and what Shawn says and what he teaches on stages around the world is that you and I have happiness all wrong, the definition is wrong, that's part of the problem, and we're gonna dig into that. We're gonna go question by question, and as we do, I'm gonna tell you what I know we're gonna talk about. We're gonna talk about the four habits that Shawn has been researching forever. He is gonna teach you that if you do these four habits for 21 days, you will be a happier you. He's also gonna dig deep into the research of what happiness is and what it isn't as he takes your questions, and I, of course, am gonna hold his feet to the fire and I'm going to listen to that scientific stuff, and then we are gonna break it down into normal people speak, and we are going to make sure that we leave here with happiness tools in our pockets and motivation in our back seat so that we not only learn and listen and laugh today, but that we also put it into action. Alrighty, Shawn Achor, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.

   2. SAShawn Achor2:55

      (laughs) Thank you so much. I've been looking forward to this.

   3. MRMel Robbins2:57

      Me too. We're gonna do something a little different today, and I don't know if we've told you this or not, 'cause I like to invite you onto the podcast and then completely surprise you by what we're doing so you feel very uncomfortable.

   4. SAShawn Achor3:10

      Yes.

   5. MRMel Robbins3:10

      Just kidding. Um, we're going to unpack all of the incredible research and insight that you share on stages and with corporations around the world about happiness by having you give our listeners advice. And before we jump into the seven questions that we have for you, I wanted to just ask you so that we are all starting on the same playing field, what is the definition of happiness?

   6. SAShawn Achor3:48

      Do

2. 3:49 – 7:33

   What is the definition of happiness?

   1. SAShawn Achor3:49

      you want me to answer that now or...

   2. MRMel Robbins3:50

      Yeah.

   3. SAShawn Achor3:50

      Um, okay. Uh, we define happiness, or I define happiness as the joy you feel moving towards your potential. So, it's both, uh, an emotion, right, that is directional, right? It's, uh, got a valence to it, it's positive, but that it doesn't stop, it's not complacent. It actually leads to seeing more of what we're capable of in terms of, you know, our potential as an athlete or as a musician or a parent or a poet.

   4. MRMel Robbins4:21

      So did we get it wrong when we're just in our day-to-day life saying to ourselves, "I don't feel happy." Like, are we talking about happiness wrong? Is that part of the problem?

   5. SAShawn Achor4:32

      I think that could be. Um, uh, but I think, 'cause I think we use happy in so many different ways, right? I'm not happy with this hotel room, or I'm not happy within this moment. Um, what we're looking for is not that, um, that moment of happiness because it's so fleeting. If you're trying to hold onto that, it just slips through our fingers almost as soon as we define it. Um, what we're looking for is more of, uh, an emotional trajectory within someone's life, that even when someone is suffering, they can actually experience joy in the midst of that. I mean, the reason why I love that we've conflated the ideas of happiness and joy together is that if happiness was based on the pleasure model, you know, pleasure is fleeting, it's so short-lived, we only have it when things are good, but joy is something we can experience even when life is not good. Like, in the midst of childbirth, it's not high levels of pleasure all the time, but moments of joy can correspond even with the highest amounts of fear and pain we can experience as human beings. So, I love that there's, uh, that there's, I- um, I think what we need is redefinition of what we mean when we talk about happiness. They're stuck in, uh, uh, a, a single moment, but what we're looking for is what's the trajectory in that moment? That even if I'm experiencing pain, whether it be back pain or fatigue or whatever it is that someone's experiencing, that we want them to actually experience joy in the midst of that so that we can make the negative experiences, those troughs, shorter.

   6. MRMel Robbins5:59

      So maybe I should ask you, what the heck is joy? Because as you're talking about childbirth, I'm like, "Shawn-I don't know what kind of epidural they had in your wife, but I did not experience a whole lot of joy until the crown was over and the kid was out, and I was done, uh, you know, with it, and they handed me the ice pack to put in my underwear. So, when you talk about-

   7. SAShawn Achor6:18

      Right.

   8. MRMel Robbins6:18

      ... joy, what do you mean?

   9. SAShawn Achor6:21

      Well, even, even in those moments, once we've had the baby, there's, you know, it's not suddenly that everything's perfect again. Now, they're waking us up, right? And now, we're taking care of this little thing that we have no idea how to take care of, at least we didn't, and we're already exhausted at that point (laughs) , right? And then the doctors leave the room, like, uh, what do we do at this moment? It, I think that we're constantly looking for that moment where, like, everything is great, that there's no stress, the race is finished. What we find is it never actually happens for people, because as soon as they finish the race, they're thinking about what they need to do when they get home, or as soon as they get that promotion, they're immediately thinking about, you know, "What am I gonna do now that I have this promotion?" And, "How do I get this person on my team to be more c- become more positive?" Um, the joy that we're experiencing is that feeling like, that we're not stagnant.

   10. MRMel Robbins7:10

       Mm.

   11. SAShawn Achor7:11

       Um, there is that h- um, uh, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which I haven't really studied very much, but I know it goes from the base, uh, those basic needs, all the way up to self-actualization, through stages of, I think it's self-confidence and self-esteem. Um, what we find is that happiness doesn't occur at only one of those moments, that we find, you know, and you've seen this

3. 7:33 – 10:04

   Where can you find happiness amidst pain and fear?

   1. SAShawn Achor7:33

      as well, that in our travels, we go to places that are quite impoverished, where we'd assume that, you know, given what the people there have, uh, or their lack of options, that they would be miserable all the time, and we, we don't find that. We find happiness in these surprising places, where you feel joy and optimism, even in places where I might feel imprisoned. Um, that it is not where you are on the Maslow's hierarchy of needs that determines your happiness. It's whether or not you feel like you're moving up on it-

   2. MRMel Robbins8:03

      Mm.

   3. SAShawn Achor8:03

      ... that there is growth. And I think that the moments in my career where, even if you've written a book, you know, I, I kind of thought, you know, as you know, like, if, if you write a book, I thought I was done. I, that was the mountaintop experience. I did it. That was my baby, (laughs) right? And it was much less painful, uh, than what my wife went through. But, like, I felt like, "Oh, I did it." And then you realize, "Wait. I kind of want people to read this, and what if people think I'm a fraud? And how do I... Oh, maybe I need to write another book, or I want to get it on a bestseller list, or how, how do I turn this into changing more people's life?" You realize it's not even done. (laughs) You've actually only started when the book, uh, came out. And there's this sense of, uh, uh, futility that can occur within those moments, that, that, that, that moment I thought would create greater levels of happiness in my life don't. But if we're able to experience joy as we move through those, uh, pursuit of goals, that's the only place I think we, that anyone finds it. That's why I think people can be very happy where they have very lower means, but they suddenly get some extra money, or they work really hard for something, and they're able to buy their kid a present-

   4. MRMel Robbins9:09

      Mm.

   5. SAShawn Achor9:09

      ... right? Or, or braces, right? Or that, you know, you write a book, and it doesn't guarantee levels of happiness, but then someone tells you something about how it impacted their life, and even though you might have heard it 100 times, you kind of needed to hear it again, right? To remember that this was important, or that, you know, you're doing something meaningful in this world. So, I think that that's what it is, is that it's that constant search of meaning that allows us to feel like what we're doing and our daily actions is moving us up towards self-actualization, which I don't know what Maslow meant when he said that, but to me, it means, um, the, my highest potential as Sean, right? As a dad, as, you know, a husband, as, you know, a speaker, uh, as a, a terrible tennis player.

   6. MRMel Robbins9:54

      (laughs) Well, I, uh, honestly am a little confused about the difference between happiness and joy, and I have a feeling

4. 10:04 – 14:32

   What is the difference between happiness and joy?

   1. MRMel Robbins10:04

      that our first question from Tina is going to open the door to you really landing this plane and this distinction for us. So let's roll that clip from Tina.

   2. NANarrator10:16

      Hi, Mel. I wanna know how to change from thinking that you can only achieve happiness depending on external things, if I had enough money, if I had a job, if I had a partner, to finding it within you?

   3. MRMel Robbins10:31

      Sean?

   4. SAShawn Achor10:33

      I love that question. So, I, the reason I love it is that the original way that psychology looked at happiness was just a pleasure-or-pain model, that all we're doing as human beings is responding to things that feel good in that moment or things that hurt, and we run away from those. And then, they decided pleasure must be what happiness is, um, 'cause we're running towards that all the time. Um, to me, I don't think that there should be a difference between happiness and joy. I, I want there to be confusion 'cause I want the two to be conflated. I think-

   5. MRMel Robbins11:01

      Oh.

   6. SAShawn Achor11:01

      ... we need to help redefine happiness for the world, that happiness is the joy you feel moving towards your potential. So I want people to have a disruption in that model because of exactly what was asked in that question. It was a great question because, um, I think that, you know, we assume that the external world is a good predictor of people's levels of happiness. That's why when parents say they want the best for their kids, they want their kids to be happy, they assume that means in a good school or, like, the top of their team, or they mean something in their head that that, that determines success and that's gonna guarantee happiness, because they've checked off some externals. But when you look at the research, as you know, the external world is a terrible predictor of happiness, right? We find happiness in all these surprising places, and we find unhappiness in places where people have everything. Um, I cut my teeth on this research when I was at Harvard, and I, when I got in, I, I had never been there. I had only seen it in the movies. I applied on a dare. I was so, I was a volunteer firefighter. I wasn't, like, a volun-... valedictorian or anything, and I was so happy that I got in. And I assumed that everyone who got into a place, an environment with opulence and opportunity would be guaranteed happiness.

   7. MRMel Robbins12:16

      Yeah.

   8. SAShawn Achor12:16

      Um, what we found is that 80% of them go through work-debilitating depression once they get there, and another 10%, the last time this was public, contemplated taking their lives. And then when I traveled to... You know, and those are statistics, but every one of them was-

   9. MRMel Robbins12:29

      Are you talking about just Harvard?

   10. SAShawn Achor12:32

       Just Harvard in that moment, um-

   11. MRMel Robbins12:34

       And you were one of them.

   12. SAShawn Achor12:36

       Which... I was one of them, and we can get to that too. I went through depression myself, actually after I graduated, um, when my job was to make sure that the first-year students who went from being, you know, top 1% of their school now realized that half of the students are now below average, um, how we could stop them from going through depression or anxiety. But they were in this incredible place, right? They had a success. It should have guaranteed levels of happiness. The worldly and external factors should have guaranteed happiness, and it didn't. When I traveled to 50 countries doing this research, I learned very quickly that the story that I just described had nothing to do with Harvard, it's how the brain processes the world. That if we think our happiness is based upon the externals, the problem is that every time your brain has a success, it changes the goalpost of what success looks like. And as soon as that occurs, then what should have created great levels of happiness didn't. So you get a degree, don't get excited yet, you don't have a job. You get a job, don't get excited yet, you have to get through inflation, or you gotta get that promotion, you know?

   13. MRMel Robbins13:38

       How do you change this?

   14. SAShawn Achor13:39

       You know, you get married-

   15. MRMel Robbins13:39

       I think we all... Like, at some point, you wake up and recognize, "I've been living this 'I'll be happy when.' I'll be happy when I get the house. I'll be happy when I finally have a boyfriend or a girlfriend or a partner. I'll be happy when I lose the pounds."

   16. SAShawn Achor13:51

       Yeah.

   17. MRMel Robbins13:51

       "I'll be happy when this..." And that model doesn't work, and what Tina's asking is, "How the hell do I change my mindset?" How do I stop-

   18. SAShawn Achor13:58

       Well, I-

   19. MRMel Robbins13:58

       ... trying to find it outside of me? I don't even know how to begin to find it inside of me. In fact, you mentioned that you were depressed, and I was reading an article where you were interviewed, and you said that you were writing in a journal during this period, and the first entry you wrote was, "I don't remember being happy, and I don't think I'll ever be happy again." And now you're like the, the world's guru of happiness. So, in that moment though, Shaun, you had an experience that I think everybody has at some point,

5. 14:32 – 15:50

   What happens when you become fearful that you will never be happy again?

   1. MRMel Robbins14:32

      "I'm not happy, and I don't think I'll ever be happy again." And so, what are... Like, what's the first thing that you would want somebody to know if that's where you are right now?

   2. SAShawn Achor14:45

      I think the very first thing I'd want is actually the recognition, 'cause I kind of wish I had known that earlier-

   3. MRMel Robbins14:50

      Hmm.

   4. SAShawn Achor14:50

      ... that whole thing we were talking about. 'Cause I think you're right, I think we all have that moment where we realize, "I thought I'd be happy when," and it didn't work. But then, if you ask somebody why they're not happy, they'll tell you about one of their externals, right? "I'm not happy right now because I don't have a boyfriend."

   5. MRMel Robbins15:05

      Yes.

   6. SAShawn Achor15:05

      "I'm not happy right now because I've got this guy at work," right? "I'm not happy right now because I don't have enough money." Um, so I think the very first step might be acknowledging it-

   7. MRMel Robbins15:15

      Hmm.

   8. SAShawn Achor15:15

      ... that the human brain is designed to foil any attempt that success will guarantee happiness. 'Cause every time you hit one of those targets, we change what we think would create happiness. I think the best example of that is actually the pandemic because I think at the beginning of it and the middle of it, everyone thought, "Think how happy we're going to be when the pandemic wanes."

   9. MRMel Robbins15:34

      (laughs) That's true.

   10. SAShawn Achor15:35

       And the pandemic is waning, and we don't have that guaranteed levels of happiness. And what we forgot was, there wasn't 100% levels of happiness before the pandemic (laughs) , right? So, I think the first is a recognition that this isn't working. From there, I think that it requires a mindset sh- a mindset

6. 15:50 – 17:47

   Step #1 to claiming happiness is recognition. This is why.

   1. SAShawn Achor15:50

      shift and a behavioral shift. Um, in that article and in th- the work that I do, I research what we can do to create happiness when the world doesn't look like it should. And I think one-

   2. MRMel Robbins16:01

      Hmm.

   3. SAShawn Achor16:01

      ... important caveat to that is that while I'm talking about what we can do internally, that doesn't negate the need for external changes.

   4. MRMel Robbins16:08

      Yes.

   5. SAShawn Achor16:08

      We have systemic reasons why there's inequality, discrimination, racism that we should fight.

   6. MRMel Robbins16:13

      Absolutely.

   7. SAShawn Achor16:14

      I believe what gives us the power to fight that is the internal changes.

   8. MRMel Robbins16:17

      Yes.

   9. SAShawn Achor16:18

      So, um... And that everyone needs to do it, not just, you know, the people seeking happiness, right? Uh, the people who are being discriminatory need to do it too, but-

   10. MRMel Robbins16:25

       So let's start with the mindset. What is-

   11. SAShawn Achor16:27

       Yeah.

   12. MRMel Robbins16:27

       ... what is one step, one simple step that somebody who is sitting alone, like Shaun, unhappy Shaun, back in, you know, the mid-

   13. SAShawn Achor16:38

       Yeah.

   14. MRMel Robbins16:38

       ... uh, 2010s, writing, "I don't remember being happy, and I don't think I'll ever be happy again," how the hell do you change your mindset? Because if you keep saying that to yourself, you're not going to be able to access happiness within.

   15. SAShawn Achor16:53

       Right. Well, I think there's something unique in that moment because I was attempting to do something about it 'cause I'm trying to write in a journal to be happier. I'm just like, "I don't think this is gonna work."

   16. MRMel Robbins17:03

       (laughs)

   17. SAShawn Achor17:03

       Um, which we know from research, you know, that's not a great mentality. Like, you can predict, um, the tre- the, the course of treatment based upon whether or not you believe the doctor can heal you (laughs) , right? So, um, that was a... not an auspicious place to start.

   18. MRMel Robbins17:17

       Okay, so Shaun, are you telling us that what you're about to tell us to do is going to work and we should believe in our ability to change our mindset and to take actions and to access happiness?

   19. SAShawn Achor17:36

       Yes. I would actually... I would wholeheartedly say that, not only because I've experienced it myself, but then we've r- researched it ever since. I mean, what I've learned in this research is that depression was not the end of the story at all-

   20. MRMel Robbins17:46

       Mm-hmm.

7. 17:47 – 21:03

   This is YOUR starting point for living a happier life.

   1. MRMel Robbins17:47

   2. SAShawn Achor17:47

      ... and that even in the midst of a broken world, in fact, only in the midst of a broken world, have we ever been able to create happiness. So the question is, how do we do so? I think the starting point is realizing not only that our s- our strategy wasn't working but acknowledging that there are multiple realities in this moment, and one of them is...... you know, I don't have a boyfriend or girlfriend, or I don't have this money, or I don't have this job that I want, or I'm frustrated about whatever it is. I think when you acknowledge that that's true, you can say, "That's one reality, but there's also some other realities as well." Um, you know, last week, uh, in- in- last week, I went to the hospital because I was having chest pains.

   3. MRMel Robbins18:23

      You were?

   4. SAShawn Achor18:24

      Y- young- yeah. I was in the ER. I missed my very first talk in two decades, and, you know, I realized in that moment when they strip you of kind of everything and you know the doctor's gonna knock on the door, when the doctor knocked on the door, I was like, "This could change my life." It didn't. I was completely fine, but in that moment, like, my whole life changed, right? It- we- my whole life could have changed and was completely disrupted within those moments. I think when we realize that there's multiple realities in that moment, one of them is, "I missed a talk, I'm not with my family, I'm in a hospital I don't want to be in." That's true. On the other hand, I'm going home today, right? I'm going home to two kids that I love and a wife that I love, right? Those are equally true but in the same reality, and because my brain has a limited amount of resources, I need to choose and I need to choose what I'm gonna be focusing my brain on. There is so much negative in this world that I could spend the entire rest of my life focusing upon that and upon my fear, but that doesn't serve me at all. It's not a valuable reality for me, that in the midst of these multiple and true realities, I'm gonna look at the ones that... and focus on the ones that are gonna allow me to fix the negative parts of my life, or they're at least gonna give me the optimism and happiness and joy to take the next step and the next step. In the- in depression, I just needed a step forward. I felt like I just stopped moving. Um, so I started doing these habits, and these are the habits that we know work. These are all the things you know about as well, right? That gratitude, for example, and I think that that- this would be my answer to someone sitting there and to that, you know, that- that 26-year-old boy who is feeling this, um, was in those moments, I needed to scan. I needed to stop scanning for all the deficits in my life, and I need to use some of those finite resources to scan the world for the things that I was grateful for. And it was hard because my brain kept being like, "Yes, but what about this?"

   5. MRMel Robbins20:18

      Yes.

   6. SAShawn Achor20:18

      "What about this thing you don't have," right?

   7. MRMel Robbins20:20

      Yes.

   8. SAShawn Achor20:20

      So I had to-

   9. MRMel Robbins20:21

      Yes.

   10. SAShawn Achor20:21

       ... literally train my brain, and we train it exactly like we've seen anything else with the human body, is I had to keep doing it, right? Like, I can't build a bicep if I only lift a weight once (laughs) then I'm done, right? I had to do it every day, and I had to create a pattern out of it, even when I wasn't sure it was gonna work and even when I could see no change in my life.

   11. MRMel Robbins20:41

       Uh-

   12. SAShawn Achor20:41

       I'd say for the first, you know, easily for the first two weeks, I saw no change in my life.

   13. MRMel Robbins20:45

       Well, I want to-

   14. SAShawn Achor20:45

       I'm just sitting there trying to-

   15. MRMel Robbins20:46

       Oh, go ahead. You- sorry.

   16. SAShawn Achor20:48

       I'm just sitting there writing down things I'm grateful for and my life still feels terrible. Like, I remember breathing hurt, um, when I was depressed 'cause like everything hurt, like in- everything didn't seem f- like it was worthwhile. Um, I think one thing that's really important to say-

   17. MRMel Robbins21:00

       What kept you going?

   18. SAShawn Achor21:02

       So

8. 21:03 – 23:55

   What kept Shane going: the habits that pulled him out of a depression

   1. SAShawn Achor21:03

      that's the- that's the thing. I- I don't get to talk about this much in any of the interviews, so I'd love to talk about this too 'cause I think you're going deeper, you know, than some of the surface questions we normally get. The- I think that the habits are what pulled me out of depression. I write my gratitudes, I journal, I do exercise, um, I, uh, write a two-minute, uh, kind note almost every day, I'd say 90% plus days since my mid-20s. I know that when I don't do those things, it's like when I don't brush my teeth, I get this film in my mouth. That's what I feel like my world looks like when I don't do those habits.

   2. MRMel Robbins21:39

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SAShawn Achor21:39

      Those habits are the way- the building blocks for creating happiness, but the turning point for me, which I never get to talk about, the turning point for me in all of this was actually not me. Um, my job was to make sure other people didn't get depressed, so I kept trying to be there for other people. I was just supposed to be this paragon of, you know, of knowing what you were supposed to do in optimism (laughs) , right? And I kept going deeper and deeper in depression because I knew that there was a dissonance between what I was feeling and what I was showing to the world. The turning point for me and what actually got me to try to do those habits was, at the bottom, um, of the depression for me, I turned to my eight closest friends and family and told them that I was going through depression. And, you know, some- a couple of these people were sort of my competitors there at Harvard, right, or my peers, and I- I told them I was going through depression. I said, "It's genetic. There's nothing you can do." You know, my grandmother, grandparents, and like, "It's genetic." I just wanted to tell somebody. But immediately, the ground swell of support was phenomenal. They kept calling me, they emailed me, they met up with me, they- uh, one of them brought me cupcakes. It's not what I did it, you know, to get cupcakes. But as soon as I- soon as I did that, everything changed, and the reason for it was actually a study I found way later in my life, um, it was a study by these two researchers in Virginia, and they found that if you look at a hill you need to climb in front of you, if you look at that hill by yourself, your brain shows you a picture of a hill that looks 20% to 30% steeper when you're alone compared to that hill that you look at of the same height while standing next to someone who you're told is gonna climb the hill with you. So I said that in a convoluted way. When you're alone, hills actually look 20% to 30% steeper to the visual cortex-

   4. MRMel Robbins23:22

      Wow.

   5. SAShawn Achor23:22

      ... which is amazing 'cause I thought we have this objective view of the world, right? That's bad. This is good. This is how tall that mountain is. And what we realized was, it was one of those Matrix moments where I realized that the world is not objective, it's subjective, and that hill, those challenges are collapsing and expanding based upon whether or not you think you're radically alone going through this and trying to get out of this or whether you're with other people. So, as soon as I did that, as soon as I opened up to other people, that was the turning point because it was the move from happiness as a self-help idea to-

9. 23:55 – 29:52

   Reminder: Happiness is a team sport.

   1. SAShawn Achor23:55

      to this reco- recognition that happiness was not an individual sport at all. And suddenly that hill of overcoming depression in front of me dropped by 20% to 30%, and they opened up about things they were dealing with. None of them was depression, but it was just challenges they were experiencing.... and we started creating these meaningful narratives and social bonds that made me want to do the habits, 'cause there was something worth doing the habits for.

   2. MRMel Robbins24:17

      Hmm.

   3. SAShawn Achor24:18

      So, it was a combination of habits and social connection and a mindset shift that allowed, in that moment, to break from this idea that nothing matters, and that there's nothing that I can do that matters, and that I have to just wait for the world to change.

   4. MRMel Robbins24:31

      Well, it makes perfect sense and it reminds me of the fact that, um, (clears throat) the Surgeon General just had that op-ed piece that went viral yesterday about the epidemic of loneliness. And in his op-ed piece in the New York Times, he talked about his own struggle with it and how the turning point was him admitting, just like you did, to his college, to his, uh, family friends and to a few colleagues, that he was really struggling with this. And it was their checking in on him and them sharing back that they felt disconnected from social groups and from themselves as well after the last three years that really was the turning point. But I, uh, love that you added that research because it is true. When you are down and sad and you feel like a sad sack that nobody wants to hang out with, that's the story you tell yourself and that story then, and the emotions that feel low, make you keep isolating. And it's when you reach out that you change the behavior and you change the narrative, and then that provides a little bit of that intrinsic lift that you need, that maybe there is something I can do, maybe there is hope. I wanna, um, go a little bit deeper on this because you've been there, and I've been there, and lots of people listening have been there, and are there right now. And so, when somebody like you come in or I'm sitting here on the mic, it's so easy to be resigned and, like, push everybody away and be like, "Well, that's great for you, Sean, but, you know, you don't know what I'm going through." And I think this question, Andrea, it's actually number three. It's, uh, Charmaine. Let's play Charmaine's question because I think it's gonna help us even go a little bit deeper to provide some hope, Sean, for somebody who's really feeling like, "I've tried everything."

   5. NANarrator26:27

      Since my teen years, I've been asking myself, "Why am I here? What's my purpose? How do I create happiness within myself?" I've made so much progress, yet right now I feel lost. I feel like a failure. I feel not good enough. I feel like I'm not a good girl. I feel like I'm not a good enough mom to my daughters. I feel selfish, and I feel off course, and like I'm not living up to my potential.

   6. MRMel Robbins26:58

      Mm-hmm.

   7. NANarrator26:58

      I've done the work. I know this is coming from my limiting beliefs, trauma, projections that I have taken on as truth, yet here I am feeling lost, alone, and frankly, stupid. I do understand the privilege I possess. I practice gratitude. I know I am blessed. And I do a lot of things right. I don't think I'm depressed. I'm not completely unhappy. So, what the fuck am I?

   8. MRMel Robbins27:28

      (laughs)

   9. NANarrator27:28

      I'm in some goddamn vortex of nirvana and hell.

   10. MRMel Robbins27:33

       Sean, what pops out at you?

   11. SAShawn Achor27:38

       Wow. Um, so many things. First of all, how self-aware this person is, right? To be able, in the midst of this, to be able to identify the stages that they've been through, where they are currently, a recognition of the good, but also feeling like that they don't feel good enough and that there's more potential. Um, what I kept hearing in my head over and over again is, "H- this sounds like me. This sounds so human." We- I think we fluctuate all the time between this, like, "I've got things going," and then, "Wow (laughs) -"

   12. MRMel Robbins28:12

       (laughs)

   13. SAShawn Achor28:12

       "... I certainly don't." Like, if I have a really productive Monday, I get everything done and I'm super cleaning the house. Tuesday and Wednesday are terrible (laughs) . I'm like, "I'm exhausted. I don't wanna do anything. I feel like I waste every Tuesday and Wednesday whenever I have an amazing Monday." Um, I think that that's because, uh, we swing, right?

   14. MRMel Robbins28:30

       Mm-hmm.

   15. SAShawn Achor28:30

       And I think what our hunger for is, um... If our hunger is for a mountaintop experience all the time, that we always know that we're loved, that we're always amazing, that we're always beautiful and the smartest person in the room. I think that that's, uh, an illusion and, uh, a, a false desire because, um, I think it's an accurate reflection that we are not living up to our potential. I think that that's true all the time. I think that I could be doing better as a dad. I could be doing better as, uh, you know, a husband. I know that when I work really hard at being a great dad, I know I immediately look around at all the people that are doing amazing things at work and I'm like, "Whoa (laughs) , I'm so behind." Then when I do a ton of stuff for work or travel ever, then I'm like, "Oh, I should be a better dad," right? I swing back and forth between this. And I think what we need are those anchor points in the midst of it.

   16. MRMel Robbins29:23

       Mm-hmm.

   17. SAShawn Achor29:23

       So, if... What and where those anchor points come from. Um, you had me on the show, or to join you because, uh, I researched this, but, you know, I also went to the Divinity School before getting into this. So, what motivated my beliefs in why positive psychology mattered came from, you know, this belief that, um, the, the story we tell ourselves and the lens through which we view the world changes how we act in it and where

10. 29:52 – 30:39

    The story we tell ourselves is how we navigate our lives.

    1. SAShawn Achor29:52

       we find our meaning and where we find that value. And I think that those narratives, those belief systems, um, can answer some of those questions about, how can I feel loved even when I'm not achieving my highest, right? Or my potential. I think in the, in the world, that's very difficult because if we get on An- Instagram and we know exactly who's doing great, you know, based upon likes, right? Or based upon some sort of quantification or money can tell you who's doing great and who's not. And none of those...... none of those fill that, that void. Um, so where those anchor points could come from. I think that they have to come from other people as well. There is a study, uh, that came out of Stanford that found that loneliness had nothing to do with actually the number of people within your life. Loneliness was simply the absence

11. 30:39 – 36:00

    What loneliness actually is

    1. SAShawn Achor30:39

       of meaning you felt, um, in the relationships with other people and their meaningful impact upon you. That if you weren't doing anything meaningful for other people's lives, then you didn't feel social connection from the people that are around you all the time, right? And, and vice versa. So, if that's the case, if meaning is what's driving, um, our levels of happiness, then I think we actually... My grandmother's said it, you know, she's like, "If you wanna be a friend... If you want a friend, you have to be a friend." Um, and I was like, "Okay, that's overly simplistic."

    2. MRMel Robbins31:11

       (laughs) Not really actually.

    3. SAShawn Achor31:13

       And I also want a girlfriend, right? (laughs) That's not working out for me.

    4. MRMel Robbins31:14

       (laughs)

    5. SAShawn Achor31:15

       Um, I, I can't be the girlfriend, right? (laughs) And so, I, um, in that moment, like, I, I, I didn't understand. Now I, I get it. What we're finding is that when people are experiencing that fluctuation back and forth, I think we're searching for meaning. And people search it for in different ways, religion and philosophy and psychology. Um, I think that a lot of the things we search for don't work out for us, which is why we get to the point where she's talking about, where we feel this vortex of, "I've got it. I don't have it. Got it. I don't have it," because we're reaching onto things oftentimes that are illusory while we're grabbing onto things that are true. Um, my mentor, Tal Ben-Shahar, said that, um, "You're never as great as you think you are, and you're never as bad as you think you are." And what I loved about that is that meant that there was a middle path in the midst of it, right? That sometimes when I think I'm a great, you know, speaker or whatever it is, you know, then I get, I get humbled very quickly by anything, right? (laughs) Um, or if I think that I'm, you know, not doing great, then occasionally I'll get an email, and it's like, "Hey, this was really important to me," right? Um, but that middle path was actually the one that I wanted to be in. And it's this recognition and being okay with, "I am not at my full potential, but that's okay. And the reason that's okay is because I'm having a meaningful impact upon other people." So that habit that I mentioned of writing a two-minute positive email praising or thanking someone else, I found that one to be probably the most helpful of any of the things that I've researched, because you can take someone in a socially isolated state with high levels of introversion, and if every day they scan for one new person to write a two-minute positive email to, they stop on day eight, (laughs) unless we pay them $15. On day eight, that's when they realize fully that they're not a crazy extrovert with all these friends they could write to. They're like, "I wrote to everyone on my favorites list and my mom twice. That's everyone." And then they scan, and they remember, "Who's that mentor who got me into this job?" Or, "Who's that high school teacher that seemed to have some answer to some of those questions that that person was just asking?" Or, "What about my first grade, my kid's first grade teacher who transformed my son's life, but I don't talk to them anymore-"

    6. MRMel Robbins33:19

       Hmm.

    7. SAShawn Achor33:19

       "... 'cause my kid's in second grade?"

    8. MRMel Robbins33:20

       Right.

    9. SAShawn Achor33:21

       And you start to see all these people that are in our lives that we're not connecting with, and a two-minute email thanking them or praising them or saying, "I've seen how you've been going through breast cancer, and it's... it inspires me that you're able to find happiness in low health when, you know, I, I struggle to find happiness when, you know, I, I, I seem to have higher health," right? That those moments, that just brief, uh, meaningful act, using technology for two minutes, we found that if you do it for 21 days in a row, your social connection score rises up to the top 15% of people worldwide, right? That's including extroverts, right? (laughs) Um, and what we found was that it was... You were lighting up these nodes of meaningful connections on your mental map of social connection. And that, I think if you look at the philosophers, I think if you look at religion, I think if you look at psychology, they keep breaking down this idea that you can achieve happiness alone, that you could just figure out your thoughts enough, and then you did it. You can just maintain your happiness. That happiness and meaning only come from this interplay with the ecosystem, with others around us. Um, and there's this-

    10. MRMel Robbins34:29

        I love that.

    11. SAShawn Achor34:30

        Okay.

    12. MRMel Robbins34:30

        I wanna... Go ahead. Or if you're about to talk another study, go for it.

    13. SAShawn Achor34:33

        Oh, I was just gonna tell one quick study.

    14. MRMel Robbins34:35

        Please.

    15. SAShawn Achor34:35

        It's a beautiful one.

    16. MRMel Robbins34:36

        Okay.

    17. SAShawn Achor34:36

        It's not, not about humans. Um, you probably heard this one. This was also, um, in The New York Times as well. They had a... There was this study where they, they found all these fireflies. Uh, fireflies everywhere light up individually and randomly in the dark, and that's how they attract a mate. And their success rate per night per bug is 3%, um, which I'm told is, is good. But these, these researchers found on opposite sides of the globe, these two species, one in Southeast Indonesia and one in the Smoky Mountains of Tennessee that you can take glasses out to go see, and these fireflies have these neurotransmitters that allow them to, to all light up and all go dark at the same time. Um, it's... which is beautiful, but not that smart because we live in a survival of the fittest world, right? We're told, "Be the fastest, smartest, brightest light shining, otherwise you'll never, never be successful." Um, and at MIT, they studied these fireflies and they realized, we just don't understand how systems work, that when they lit up together, seemingly with their competition, the success rate doesn't drop. The success rate goes from 3% to 82% per bug. It's not like one bug does better. The whole system was doing orders of magnitude better than we thought was possible, 'cause as they lit up together, their light became brighter, and it was attracting more and more potential mates than a single light would have been able to do and created these virtuous cycles. And we kept seeing the same thing when we s- when we looked at humans. Um, we found that the greatest predictor of long-term levels of happiness, as you know, one of the greatest predictors is social connection.

12. 36:00 – 42:40

    The importance of social connection and community

    1. SAShawn Achor36:00

    2. MRMel Robbins36:00

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SAShawn Achor36:00

       It's the breadth, depth, and meaning of your social relationships. So it's not something you can figure out in your head, and then you did it, and then you can hold happiness forever. It's about finding a way of lighting up with other people and getting them to light up as well.

    4. MRMel Robbins36:14

       So, Shawn, what I love about what you just said, um, especially in response to that question from Charmaine, is that I was listening to her just tick off one negative, nasty, critical thought......after another, I could feel, like, this heaviness. And then all of a sudden, it occurred to me, "Wait a minute. I bet happiness is broken into two things." It is from the neck up and it's the things that you tell yourself, but it is also, and probably way more important, that you think about the things that you're doing from the neck down. And that's where these habits come in, that if it's all doom and gloom from the neck up, you're not gonna feel any sort of motivation, hope, or interest in lighting up with everybody else. But if you can force yourself to start ticking off these simple habits that you recommend, that you practice, that you've researched, and you just highlighted the one of taking and making a two-minute note, just a two-minute note every single day for 21 days, it will have an impact in how you feel, which of course will start to shift all that shit you've been saying to yourself, which probably is stuff that you heard your parents say to themselves. And so, you are... What I love about your research is that you're also making it actionable, because I think that's part of the problem, that when we feel shitty and we say shitty things to ourselves, we don't take the actions that actually change it.

    5. SAShawn Achor37:46

       Hmm. I, yeah, I h- heard one time, I was on a plane and the, uh, the woman sitting, I don't know, kitty-corner b- behind me and, y- you know, to the back. She said... She was talking to somebody else loudly that she had just met about all these, uh, psychological understandings about herself, like literally a litany of all the psychological problems that she had. And I realized she'd been... and she said she'd been going to therapy for years. She had this incredible knowledge-

    6. MRMel Robbins38:15

       (laughs)

    7. SAShawn Achor38:15

       ...about herself and understanding where she was, and it didn't at no- no point did she ever mention anything she was doing about it, right? She was talking to a stranger about it (laughs) , right? Um, which, you know, was, was more trauma dumping than actually trying to move forward. But I think there's this moment where I, you know, I really thought that if I read enough books that I'd find happiness, right? I thought that if I, you know, I thought if I'd read enough books, I'd be smart and then people would like me (laughs) . That was completely not true, right? Um, and I think that we take these paths, and, and I love what you're saying there, is that there's this interplay between the beliefs and the actions that we do. You see the same thing with religion, right, between this faith and works, right? Like, it's the things you believe, but if you say you believe those but you're not doing any of those, I'm not sure you actually believe these things, right? That there's gotta be connection between those. And what I would say is, in addition to that, is don't try to do it alone, right? I think that we treat happiness like self-help. Like, I, I know our books are in self-help sections sometimes, right? But as soon as we do this on our own without that friend, without that mentor, without those people that we're doing meaningful acts for, then we get frustrated very quickly and think we're doing something wrong. And what's wrong is actually the formula. Like, happiness never works out if it's an individual pursuit. And I-

    8. MRMel Robbins39:31

       I, I love that.

    9. SAShawn Achor39:31

       That's one of those other mindset shifts I think was crucial, um, to, to find, that there wasn't... You know, you can't do enough yoga to force yourself into happiness-

    10. MRMel Robbins39:40

        (laughs)

    11. SAShawn Achor39:40

        ...unless that yoga causes you to be more peaceful with that interaction with your mother-in-law.

    12. MRMel Robbins39:44

        Hmm. That's like happiness applied. I'd like to play another question.

    13. SAShawn Achor39:49

        (laughs)

    14. MRMel Robbins39:49

        Uh, this one, uh, Andrea, is from Pam. So this is a question from a listener that I think will help us dig deeper into, um, like, the connection between you and people around you and how they impact your happiness.

    15. NANarrator40:05

        I'm listening to your podcast now and almost crying. What if your happiness seems centered entirely on that of another? In my case, it's my son. I've heard you're only as happy as your happiest child, and I have one son, and he is not happy. I know he lives with his face in his phone, and he says he doesn't mind being a loner. I know that he was happiest many years ago when he had a girlfriend who adored him and was very active. Now he's 26 and should be in the prime of his life, and he isn't. And as a result, I feel deeply unhappy. How do I move past this, and how can I help him do the same? At 65 and four years out from breast cancer treatment, I think it's time to find my warm people and find that happiness again.

    16. SAShawn Achor40:56

        I hear that. I mean, I have two kids of my own, and so much of my happiness is built upon them and because of them. And, you know, uh, any frustration that I feel is usually because I'm not with them (laughs) , right? Or when they're hurting, I so wish it was me. So I think that that's unavoidable. I think that love necessitates amounts of pain that we have to buy into. So I think that the fact that there's pain associated with that love should not be the surprising part. Um, I think what I would, you know, if, if this was me saying that, and I feel like that's been me saying that sometimes in my life, we got to hear only a little bit of her story, right? Her story was her son's story mostly, right? Then we heard that she went through breast cancer. Like, I would have loved to hear her story, and yet we're hearing her story as a bit character or as a side narrator of her son's story, um, which means that our happiness becomes very fragile. So, you, you know, you and I both... Well, in financial groups, they, you know, they always tell you, "Diversify your portfolio," right? "Don't all be in all stocks," and, you know, "Don't be in all bonds," or/and... and that's my f- knowledge cliff, right? (laughs) You know, don't be all in one thing, right? I think the same thing happens with meaning, and I think we see it with people who love their kids. We also see it with workaholics, where they love something and it's meaningful. The work is meaningful and pleasurable and they're good at it, right? So then, they just do more of it.... but the more they do that and they don't do other things, they're slowly taking out-

    17. MRMel Robbins42:28

        Hmm.

    18. SAShawn Achor42:28

        ... other meaningful parts of their life, so that their entire meaning portfolio is all in one stock. It's all that son or it all becomes that work. We don't even know what to do with ourselves when we don't have work to do, right? (laughs) That's a

13. 42:40 – 48:17

    These 4 simple habits for 21 days will change your life.

    1. SAShawn Achor42:40

       workaholic, right? Like, they get free time and they're like, "What do I do? Maybe I'll just have a few more emails, then I'll feel happy again," right? Or that idea that-

    2. MRMel Robbins42:45

       Well, that used to be you. I remember when we first met, you had been, uh... You had kind of fallen into that trap and you had to make yourself a promise that whenever you were on a plane, you were gonna put your laptop away and you were gonna force yourself to watch a movie.

    3. SAShawn Achor43:00

       Yeah.

    4. MRMel Robbins43:00

       Because you were starting to see that you loved work so much, and this was me too, that you hadn't diversified where you got your happiness from. And so, I think that's incredible advice, and I also keep thinking about that swinging.

    5. SAShawn Achor43:13

       Yeah.

    6. MRMel Robbins43:13

       So, I loved it when you were saying earlier to think about your life and the emotional and the meaning aspect of life as this range, and if you never knew the depths of sadness, you wouldn't ever experience the greatest heights of joy, and that there is always this swing. And when it swings in a direction where you have really, um, uncomfortable feelings, that that is a mentally healthy and a mentally emotional place to be in life at times. And one of the greatest things that I've learned recently, Shaun, and it's helped me a lot as a parent, is that it is so important that the people in your life struggle at times, because inside that struggle is where they learn the lessons and they have to dig deeper and discover something inside themselves. And, you know, it's the hardest thing in the world to see somebody that you love suffering, and I had that experience watching my husband struggle with depression. And I could throw every book on the planet at him, every podcast episode at him, but I can't do the work for him. I can just hold space for that, and I think we have to do that for ourselves, that on those days that you feel like shit, you've gotta hold space for the fact that you've just swung in the direction of a healthy feeling, and eventually it's gonna swing back. And what I like about what you're teaching us, Shaun, is that through these habits, and you said a gratitude practice, a journaling practice, exercising every day, taking two minutes to write a note to somebody, these are simple things that leverage all this research. This is the neck-down approach as far as I'm concerned, something that has nothing to do with how you feel but impacts how you feel, that these are things that anybody can do. But what do you do? Because I can... You know, I can sit here and, like, mouth off on the mic and say that, you know, I can hold space and all this shit. But the truth is, like, I get very triggered when somebody that I love is sad, and I wanna fix it, Shaun. But how do you hold space? How do you, like, kind of operate, whether it's you personally, Shaun, or what do you recommend? 'Cause I... You know, you do so much corporate, uh, uh, strategy work and teaching. What do you do, like, for leaders when there's somebody on their team that's really struggling? Like, how do you show up as a space and commitment for happiness for others when they don't feel like it?

    7. SAShawn Achor45:54

       You know, it's such an interesting question because, you know, when we speak to groups of people, you get 300 people in a room plus, you know someone in there is going through grief. Just statistically, someone's going through grief. Maybe 20% are on an antidepressant or anti-anxiety medication. You know that they're... You know, uh, that 10% or more have been abused, right? And to go into... The- the more I think about it, the more I become paralyzed as a speaker, like, if I thought about that. 'Cause I know that I would not, you know, say some of the things that I would be saying, you know, even in this conversation. Maybe not, but the... I- I would... I definitely would soft-pedal some of the things in The Happiness Advantage if one of my friends had just lost their son. I would not go immediately to this, because I think that there's a moment that, uh... And a long moment for grief that we need to allow, and a recognition that that's part of love and that's part of being human. At the same time, what's helped me hold that space that you're describing is that I'll find out after a talk that someone- someone will come up to me and be like, "You know, I just... This traumatic event just happened to our kid," and I immediately think in my head, "Why did I say some of these things," right? Um, uh, and they were like, "You have no idea how much I needed to hear this today." So, my beliefs and assumptions about what that person needed to hear were completely wrong, and I give my space- myself space to realize in those moments that I don't have everything figured out, which is actually really helpful in- in a way that I think links back to what you were describing, that I think that, um, that- that what the- the last, uh, you know, um, person described was exactly what my parents felt about me when I was depressed, right? My parents have said it to me. They were like, "We felt helpless. We watched you go through depression. We saw you were depressed, and we couldn't do anything, and you were in Boston, far away from us." So, I could hear them feeling the same thing that that parent felt as well. Um, and that's why I'm a happiness researcher now, because I went through th- that depression, right? And because they were there for me in the midst of it and my friends were, and because I took these steps, all of that made me feel like depression wasn't the end of the story and made me want to talk to other people about it. So, that moment of suffering that you're describing, um, what I keep telling parents that, you know, will say, "My kid is depressed,"

14. 48:17 – 53:23

    It’s not the end of your story; the reminder I even needed

    1. SAShawn Achor48:17

       um, I say, "I was too, and that's not the end of the story, and that's very typical," right? (laughs) Like, that is very normal. I think we panic when we don't feel that happiness we're s- we're told we're supposed to feel all the time.Um, what I wish that, it could be a constant corollary to my work is to let people know that you should not feel happy all the time. If you do, that's a disorder, right? You're divorced from reality. What we want you to do is that when you feel swung towards the negative side and you're do- doing deficit thinking, like the- the first person-

    2. MRMel Robbins48:51

       Yeah.

    3. SAShawn Achor48:51

       ... um, uh, that we need to spend some of those precious finite resources to scanning for the positive s- parts of the story-

    4. MRMel Robbins48:59

       Mm-hmm.

    5. SAShawn Achor48:59

       ... that are equally true, or to talk about our story instead of just our son's story.

    6. MRMel Robbins49:04

       You know, I think that the numbers that you said about an audience are way higher. And I would push back on you and say that the research and the recommendations that you're making work and that everybody needs to hear them. And if you're in a state of acute grief, then you're not gonna be capable of doing it. But the second that you're grabbing for a lifeline, these simple habits that you're talking about of-

    7. SAShawn Achor49:30

       Mm-hmm.

    8. MRMel Robbins49:30

       ... simply getting out of bed, exercising, journaling, practicing gratitude, and then sending a note of kindness, and it might just be the people that helped you during the funeral, that that gives you a lifeline, that gives you-

    9. SAShawn Achor49:43

       Mm-hmm.

    10. MRMel Robbins49:43

        ... access to the power within you, that helps you come back to yourself. And so I think we make the mistake of tiptoeing around people's depression and people's sadness, and we treat them with kid gloves, when actually what they need is not only the empathy and the support and the check-in, but these mile markers and guideposts that help you swing back in the direction of feeling happier again. And, you know, I do love that you keep coming back and back and back to this idea that this is, A, something you practice. I have never heard anybody say that happiness is a team sport. I have always thought about it as happiness i- like, having good social connections results in happiness. But you're saying almost the inverse, which is that when you prioritize connecting with people in a more meaningful way, or even simply to seek some support and help, the result that you feel is more joy-

    11. SAShawn Achor50:51

        Yeah.

    12. MRMel Robbins50:51

        ... and happiness, even as you're going through these very difficult times. It's almost like happiness and joy can become a life vest that keeps you afloat. It's not like it's exhilarating, and that's... I'm- I'm starting to really get at a much deeper cellular level what you're saying, when it's like we need a different definition for this. It's not pleasure. It's something else that's way more important. I wanna go to another question that we have. Um, let's... Andrea, let's go to, um, question number four. I bet you've got a great answer for Anne Marie.

    13. NANarrator51:31

        Hi, Mel. This is Anne Marie calling from Guilford in the United Kingdom. Absolutely adore listening to your inspirational podcast. Thank you. Can you advise people who perhaps have a chronic illness and can't exercise or work full time how they too can lead a happier and more fulfilled life? Sometimes we feel trapped and just grateful someone will even hire us. It's often a job to make ends meet rather than do something that we love and find fulfilling. How do you stay motivated and hopeful and keep joy in your life? How do you prevent yourself from spiraling and thinking the worst because you're sick so much of the time? Thank you so much, and sending all love.

    14. SAShawn Achor52:12

        It's very tough, and I faced that last week when, you know, my heart wasn't doing well or whatever was wrong with me. And I thought, you know, it's so much easier to feel... I- I actually looked outside the window, and there's this security guy- guard outside the hospital, and I so much wanted to be him.

    15. MRMel Robbins52:28

        Mm-hmm.

    16. SAShawn Achor52:29

        I wanted his life where he wasn't caring about health. So, this question hits home where someone has to think about their health all the time. Um, and I think that that's, uh, I think the recog- recognizing that that makes it hard. You know, I used to write in- in books, when I'd sign it, I'd say, "Happiness is a choice, Shaun." I don't do that anymore because I actually still do believe happiness can become a choice eventually, um, but not in- in the immediate moment without any practice, and it's okay when it doesn't happen, and that takes way too long for you to write into every book, right? (laughs) I think that there is, uh, a recognition that-

    17. MRMel Robbins53:07

        I have an idea.

    18. SAShawn Achor53:09

        Yeah, go ahead.

    19. MRMel Robbins53:09

        What if you wrote, "Happiness is an option"?

    20. SAShawn Achor53:15

        I like that, um, because choice seems to add a burden, where I don't want there to be a burden, but a recognition that it is an option.

15. 53:23 – 57:24

    Happiness is an option, not a choice.

    1. SAShawn Achor53:23

       I love that. That... I think I might y- y- use that now. That's great. Um, I think that, um, when we can't do something, we're outlining something that's a deficit. "I can't exercise." But we know that most of these habits don't involve exercise. So, there are things that we can do in those moments that can raise levels of happiness. I think the choice is just harder. I think the choice is harder when you're being racially discriminated against, or when you have a health issue, or when your kid is depressed. I think the choice becomes harder within those moments, but still it's an option, as you're describing. And where I think we get meaning, even when our own body becomes our prison, is from other people. And I know that because we... I've done work with, you know, the National MS Society. We did a whole campaign with them where we got, you know, them, uh, the person who is experiencing MS and, uh, a caregiver to come together, and they heard about these habits, and then we did it together, and then we videotaped their experience for the next six months, um, as an encouragement for other people so they weren't just hearing someone who's a happiness research talk about this. They could hear about it translated into the life of someone who's dealing with MS. Um, and...... what I then saw was that, you know, as a researcher, I study people. I, I, I did study this not because I'm amazing at happiness and now I need to tell everyone about it. I study the people who are able to create happiness even when it would be very difficult for me. Like, if I lost one of my children, I do not know what would happen on the backside of it, regardless of all this, uh, this work. I don't know who I would be. But I do know people on the opposite side of trauma and, and grief who have done incredible things with their life that are incredibly positive. I, I just met someone who lost his daughter and is the head of a hospital system in the midst of, uh, COVID and was just one of those people that just you walk away feeling like life is worth living. Um, so I know it's possible. So given that that... You can see that s- people are doing that, I think it becomes, to your point, an option again. And then meaning comes from other people. So, you know, I, I, I-

    2. MRMel Robbins55:24

       Now, when you say meaning comes from other people, I wanna be very clear, everybody, because we are also saying you have to stop thinking you'll be happy when you get in a relationship, or lose the pounds, or you'll finish the PhD, or you have your first song playing on the radio. The "I'll be happy when" or thinking that some achievement is going to make your life fulfilling, no. And I think most of us have heard that it's about... What becomes fulfilling in life is working on this thing, climbing the mountain. So, I wanna be very clear that Shaun is not saying that other people are the source of your happiness. What Shaun is saying is that connection, meaningful connection with other people creates feelings of meaning, and joy, and happiness in your life, and that serving others and helping other people creates meaning and joy. So, this is not trying to counsel you that somebody else holds the key to your happiness. It's another one of those ways to think about happiness differently. Am I saying that correctly, Shaun?

    3. SAShawn Achor56:33

       Yeah. I, I think saying it in, in some... Very important thing to say. And also, that if you're in a relationship with somebody that's harming you, then you do not need to be in a relationship with that person, or you need to be able to find safe spaces outside of that. That being the case, we did work with, uh... Alongside that, uh, uh, we were working in Flint, Michigan. In the midst of inequality and discrimination and racism, which are real, uh, and visceral and pernicious negatives within a society. They could easily... You know, when we came into the community, I was worried people would be like, "We'll talk about happiness when the jobs come back and when there's not lead in the water."

    4. MRMel Robbins57:09

       Yes.

    5. SAShawn Achor57:09

       "We'll talk about happiness when there's not racism." Um, and we were... We only had money to work with the teachers, so we were trying to raise levels of happiness for the teachers so they'd stay for more than two years. And if their story was, "I live in the midst of this society that's broken.

16. 57:24 – 1:07:18

    What Shawn learned in Flint, Michigan, about mindset and behavior

    1. SAShawn Achor57:24

       I can't wait to get out of here," then, of course, they would want to get out of there. What we found while we were doing this is that only in the classrooms where we were able to raise the levels of happiness for the teachers, the teachers' students' parents' or guardians' wellbeing scores started im- improving dramatically. So, we were measuring the community, but we weren't doing anything, we thought, for them. We were only working with the teachers, and yet their wellbeing s- scores were improving. The students' test scores in those classrooms were rising, and we weren't working with the students yet. We were finding that if you could change the mindset and behavior of some of the individuals within an ecosystem, you could actually measure the impact of people two, three, four degrees separate that they never even met. And the reason I highlight that is, one, that makes us feel good about ourselves, but two, it's the reason for taking that next step. If doing this gratitude journal is just about me, it feels empty and vacuous, right? That it's like it's just about my happiness. This is just like, you know, going to the gym so I could look good, but, you know, why am I gonna look good if I don't have someone to look good for, right? Like, you could get stuck in all those ideas. What we were finding in the midst of this is that when people were able to, uh, raise their levels of happiness, joy, and meaning, it caused other people to become... To fi- to see that happiness was an option. But at the same time, that gave them the fuel for why my work is meaningful as a teacher. And we had this one day where they did a random acts of kindness. We took teachers that are, are doing everything in their power to try and hold this community together, and we had them do one more thing. We had them, on one day, all come together and do a random act of kindness for the community. So, and we didn't know there was gonna be a blizzard that day. So, at like 4:00 in the morning, they were giving donuts to road construction crews. They were going out to hospice centers, hospitals. This was their day off, the parent-teacher or the, the teacher in-service day. Um, they did... They even went to the DMV to pass out happiness kits that they made until they got kicked out, 'cause one of the managers actually said, "This is just not part of our culture." (laughs)

    2. MRMel Robbins59:25

       (laughs)

    3. SAShawn Achor59:25

       Which I thought was hilarious. But in the midst of this, you talk to those teachers who give everything all the time about that day, they immediately light up. Their joy... And my mom was a high school English teacher for 30 years. It was very hard to get her to do something for herself, but if she knew that doing something for herself could raise the levels of happiness for other people, it felt meaningful, right? And so, what I'm hoping for is not that my happiness exists in somebody else, but like you're describing, that it's... You can't ho- Like, there was this... There was this study that came out, um, about it's better to live a meaningful life than a happy life. Um, which I thought as soon as you split meaning and happiness, we've already made a mistake, right? Because as soon as we-

    4. MRMel Robbins1:00:07

       Yeah. Isn't it the same thing?

    5. SAShawn Achor1:00:09

       Yes, they should be, because it's very difficult to keep... You know, to stay happy when you feel like your life is meaningless. And it's very difficult to keep doing meaningful activities if you don't feel any joy doing that or any re- return on it. You have to have the two meld together. And I would say grit alongside that as well. Um, and so what we were finding was that that meaning was coming from our participation.... positively in creating a, a better world that was outside of just the individual. And that when you enhance and expand the power out and let people be part of your life as well, that's when we start to see those, those larger gains in people's levels of happiness.

    6. MRMel Robbins1:00:47

       If I had to say this in a very rude way... You're ready?

    7. SAShawn Achor1:00:51

       Okay. (laughs)

    8. MRMel Robbins1:00:51

       And I know you need to go, so I'll make it fast. Um, it's almost as if, if you don't have some clinical diagnosis or mental health issue that's compromising your rational thinking and your emotions, if you're unhappy, you're not playing a big enough game in life. You're too-

    9. SAShawn Achor1:01:10

       Hmm.

    10. MRMel Robbins1:01:10

        ... focused on your own misery, you're too focused on yourself. And gratitude is one way to make you see the bigger picture. Taking two minutes and sending a really positive note to somebody else is a way to help you see the bigger picture. When you exercise, particularly if you get outside, and you're out in nature, and you move your body, which shifts your emotions, which shifts your thinking, which helps you then think bigger. All of these things are about getting out of your own teeny, tiny, selfish, miserable focus and expanding your eyes to see that there's a lot more about your life experience and about what is your potential that's available to you when you stop staring at your nasal and complaining about everything that's going on. Your navel.

    11. SAShawn Achor1:02:06

        I, I, I like that. Also, alongside that-

    12. MRMel Robbins1:02:07

        You're not as mean as me though.

    13. SAShawn Achor1:02:10

        No, no, I, in fact-

    14. MRMel Robbins1:02:10

        I don't, I don't see you throwing a few fucks in there. I see Shawn, like, being a very nice happiness researcher.

    15. SAShawn Achor1:02:15

        As you're saying it, I'm just, like, I feel like I could just listen to you forever 'cause I feel like you're able to synthesize this in such a beautiful way, and you can hear it from the people who call in and, even though they're suffering, you're doing something so meaningful in their life. You know, alongside that, I would say, you know, we get so focused upon, you know, whether or not a glass is half full or half empty, right? And then we decide our happiness based upon that, right? Our optimism or pessimism. But I've always had this idea, like this picture in my head of, we're so focused on this glass being half full or half empty, but ignoring that there's a pitcher of water sitting right next to it that we could fill it up with.

    16. MRMel Robbins1:02:49

        Yeah.

    17. SAShawn Achor1:02:49

        Right? And we're trying to determine whether or not, you know, our current life is where we want it to be, and I would say, it, it isn't. And I think in many ways, we all have a, have a, a disordered life where we put the wrong things at the top, or think the wrong things will create greater levels of happiness. And what we're finding is that when we do these habits, and when we, um, care and let other people in, care for and let other people in, we're filling up that glass, and that glass does not look like it did the day before.

    18. MRMel Robbins1:03:20

        Yeah. That's great. Okay, so what are the habits that you're teaching people around the world, Shawn?

    19. SAShawn Achor1:03:26

        We get people to write down each day, for two minutes, three new things that they're grateful for that have occurred over the past 24 hours. We don't let them repeat for 21 days in a row. So that it's not what you're grateful for that matters, it's the scanning. We also got people to go on a 15-minute brisk walk four to five times a week, which we found is the equivalent of taking an antidepressant for the first six months and for the next two years has a 30% lower relapse rate back to that depressed state. We find that if you take your hands off your keyboard for two minutes today and just watch your breath go in and out, you're training your brain to do one thing at a time. In 21 days later, not only are your accuracy rates improving by 10%, but levels of happiness rise, stress levels drop, and the cortisol levels of the people that are around you change, so yours, their stress levels are dropping as well. Um, so you're literally changing other people's biochemical patterns based upon your habits. And finally, we got people to write a two-minute positive email each day, praising or thanking one new person, a different person each day for 21 days in a row. So, just thanking them for something or praising them for something, a weak tie or strong tie. But 21 days later, we find that it dramatically improves the greatest predictor of your long-term levels of happiness, which is your social connection score.

    20. MRMel Robbins1:04:36

        Boom. That's not just The Happiness Advantage people, those are the happiness actions. And I'm telling you, based on the research, the man is right, you gotta do it. I always say, Shawn, this is not just a listening podcast, this is a fucking doing podcast. So, do those things for 21 days, and I think you will be shocked at how the needle moves, or as Shawn likes to say, you swing in a new direction. And Shawn, anything else that you want everyone to know?

    21. SAShawn Achor1:05:10

        Um, accept where you are right now, but realize that this is not the end of the story. So, I believe that change is radically possible from our genes and our environment, when we change our mindset, and change our behavior, and we link in with other people as well.

    22. MRMel Robbins1:05:25

        Well, I'm sad that this is the end of the conversation. And I do think your next book, the title should be, This Is Not The End Of The Story. It, it, it's the one thing that made my... Like, there's a lot of things in our conversation today, but the couple times that you said that, it was so hopeful, and it also is believable optimism. And so there is something in that "this is not the end of the story" that is limitly, uh, that has limitless possibility, and yet something seems very achievable in that.

    23. SAShawn Achor1:06:06

        I love that, and I love that happiness is an option. There are so many points, I feel like I'm gonna be thinking about this interview for a long time. You've just got this depth that makes it just beautiful, so I, I learned a lot from this.

    24. MRMel Robbins1:06:19

        All right, listen, YouTube, I know you're watching this. We just went to commercial break over on the podcast side. You wanna know why? 'Cause those advertisers pay for this shit. And so you wanna know how you can help me? Click subscribe. Don't sit there and be a free leador- loader. That's not cool. That's not what your friend Mel Robbins needs. I need you to do your side of this, which is click subscribe. Why?The more subscribers I have, the more advertisers we attract, which means the more videos we can create for you. Don't be a freeloader in life. Hit subscribe, help a lady out, and then everything that you learned today from the OG of Happiness, you better fucking put it to work, because it doesn't work for you to just watch me. You gotta stop watching and start doing. Well, actually keep watching, but also do. All right. Let's join back in with your friends that listened to the ads. Boom! Back to the show. I wanna highlight a couple takeaways, because there was so much that we covered, and it wasn't in a very orderly (imitates robotic sounds)

17. 1:07:18 – 1:15:52

    The tools and takeaways you need to remember after this conversation

    1. MRMel Robbins1:07:18

       "I'm a robot asking questions that the PR company gave me." That's not how we do this on the Mel Robbins Podcast. So, let me just make sure that you have the succinct takeaways. First of all, it's very clear that we should have one word, and the word for happiness should be meaning, happiness, and joy. Meaning, happiness, and joy. What I got from that is, it's all the same thing. Pleasure, laughter, going out and, you know, blowing off some steam with some buddies on the weekend, these experiences that make you laugh or swa- th- those are great, but what Shaun and I are talking about to you today is something way deeper. And we're talking about you having an experience in your life, that no matter what the fuck is going on, that you have this greater perspective, and you have this connection to values and meaning and other people, that happiness, when it's tied to meaning and joy and connection to other people, that it is a life jacket that keeps you afloat in hard times. And it is almost like the dial on a stove that you can turn up to really get the water boiling when things are great. It's an accelerator, it's an amplifier, and it's also a lifesaver. Like, I'm gonna stop thinking about this as some emotion I feel, and I'm gonna start thinking about it as a framework through which you live your life, that you are doing the work to create greater meaning, 'cause if you even just think about the four habits he taught us, if you, if you list them off generically, you're like, "Uh-huh, duh." But if you really stop and consider the deeper thing we're talking about here, we're talking about shortcuts to deeper meaning in your life, and if you drill down into decades of psychological research, you know, let's just even put aside all the research that Shaun's team's been doing, every one of these taps into bodies of research that have been performed for decades that ladder up to us knowing that they will help you create more meaning in your life. They will be the amplifier, and they will also be the life jacket when shit gets hard. And so, I just want to remind us all of them. It's this journaling practice of pra- of, of naming three things you're grateful for in the last 24 hours, and you can't repeat them for 21 days. And he said the value in that is it forces you to scan. It's very similar to the things that we talk about here, like looking for three wins or looking for hearts. You are actively scanning the environment to see something positive. The high five habit is actively looking at yourself and treating yourself different. And Shaun was saying it's in the training of the mind to change what you're looking for that creates the meaning and the lift and the impact. The second thing that he said is something we talk about all the time here, which is this walk like you're late, walk like you're late. Shaun recommends 15. I say, eh, 10 will do. And it's true. If you simply get out the door and you walk like you're late, and I tell you that you cannot be listening to anything, because I want you to have an experience of being with yourself, and I want you to be outside and hear nature or other people or the sounds around you, and I want you to walk late, because of the research around how it shifts your mood and how it taps into longevity, and I also don't want anything in your ears, because I want you to be present. And finally, you're gonna get the bright light. So, we agree on that one too. Another one that we agree on, I tell you every day, text one person a day, reach out to one person a day. His is write a two, take two minutes and write an email positive to somebody. Exact same thing, exact same research that we're both citing. This is so important. Oh, and I love this one. This one I do not do, but I love this one. We might have to steal this one. You need to set a timer on your phone, because God knows neither one of us are gonna remember this, so set a timer on your phone to take your hands off your keyboard and just breathe for two minutes. That's a good one. That's a good one. I like that one. Those four things of stopping the multitasking, proactively connecting with other people and reaching out, getting outside and taking a brisk walk and being with yourself and shifting your mood and getting that dopamine, and finally, the act of intentional journaling and scanning for wins and what you're grateful for, that's the quad of incredible happiness for you. Now, the other thing that we talked about is that there's a huge swing here. If you are happy all the time, you're not normal and you're not healthy. You're probably manic, okay? A normal, healthy, mentally healthy person has days where they feel connection and meaning and joy and days where they are swimming in the fricking toilet, okay? You can't have one without the other.Really, what we're talking about is using these habits and a mindset switch to throw on a life jacket so you can float in the toilet and climb your way out of there, and on those days where you are experiencing meaning and joy, that you're fucking present so that you actually can feel those core memories. That's what he was saying. Anyth- Alrighty, I love you. I wanna make sure that I don't end this without telling you that I love you and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to just ride the wave. Experience those core memories, create deeper meaning and joy in your life, reach out for help when you're having a bad day, and tap into this advantage that we've just given you. One of the OGs of happiness just handed you the keys, and now you gotta grab 'em, stick 'em in the lock, turn it, and push a door open to a happier you, because happiness is an option. I love you. (beep) Okay. Am I okay, Jesse, to go? Yeah, okay. (beep) (clears throat) Ooh, I guess (coughs) I'm not happy about that. There's something in my throat. (coughs) Okay. (beep) Wow, that is a big truck going by. You know what? I'm not happy that the truck is going by, but I feel a lot of joy in my heart because we're making progress on this episode. (laughs) (beep) And you can feel- (phone rings) Oh my God, okay, I have to take this off 'cause I've been harassing her. (beep) (laughs) There is the truck again. My God. (beep) Leave it to Mel to schedule podcast tapings on a construction day. (beep) We're gonna do something a little different today, and I don't know if we've told you this or not, 'cause I like to invite you onto the podcast and then completely surprise you by what we're doing-

    2. NANarrator1:14:41

       Got it.

    3. MRMel Robbins1:14:41

       ... so you feel very uncomfortable. Just kidding. Oh, and one more thing, and no, this is not a blooper. (laughs) This is the legal language. You know, what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode. (instrumental music) Hey, it's Mel. Thank you so much for being here. If you enjoyed that video, by God, please subscribe 'cause I don't want you to miss a thing. Thank you so much for being here. We've got so much amazing stuff coming. Thank you so much for sending this stuff to your friends and your family. I love you. We create these videos for you, so make sure you subscribe. Mwah!

Episode duration: 1:15:52