The Real Reason Boys and Men Are Quietly Giving Up & What They Need to Hear

1. 0:00 – 8:36

   Welcome

   1. MRMel Robbins0:00

      Our expert today is one of my most favorite people on the planet. I'm talking about best-selling author, Jason Wilson. And Jason is here to talk about the surprising things that the men in your life are struggling with and probably not talking about. And today, you and all the boys and men that you care about are gonna learn how they need to start showing up differently for the most important person in their lives, themselves. What keeps you up at night right now, Jason, when you think about the challenges that boys and men are facing?

   2. JWJason Wilson0:34

      I'm concerned for boys now. They're overly anxious, apathetic, an extreme fear of failure. They're longing to be loved, not only by their mothers, but their fathers.

   3. MRMel Robbins0:48

      What is it that is-

   4. JWJason Wilson0:50

      Hmm.

   5. MRMel Robbins0:51

      ... making men and boys' souls so weary?

   6. JWJason Wilson0:55

      We're living performance-based lives. You wanna become a human being, not a human doing.

   7. MRMel Robbins1:02

      Say that again.

   8. JWJason Wilson1:03

      When a man always says, "I'm good. Uh, nothing's wrong." That's a warning.

   9. MRMel Robbins1:09

      How do I do this? How do I reach my husband? How do I reach my son?

   10. JWJason Wilson1:12

       Mmm.

   11. MRMel Robbins1:13

       How do I reach my brother? (instrumental music plays)

   12. JWJason Wilson1:19

       (smacks lips) Yeah.

   13. MRMel Robbins1:22

       Jason Wilson. I have been waiting to get you to hop on a plane and to be here in Boston. I am thrilled you're here.

   14. JWJason Wilson1:33

       Thank you. I'm excited to be here. Um, I'm really happy for you. I'm proud of all that you're doing. It's amazing. I've been a fan of yours f- seems like forever. And so to see all that you're doing and the impact you're making is really inspirational. So, thank you, and I'm proud of you.

   15. MRMel Robbins1:50

       Thank you for saying that.

   16. JWJason Wilson1:51

       Yes.

   17. MRMel Robbins1:51

       And I'm finally at a point in my life where I can receive it.

   18. JWJason Wilson1:55

       Mmm.

   19. MRMel Robbins1:55

       So thank you.

   20. JWJason Wilson1:56

       Yes.

   21. MRMel Robbins1:56

       And thank you for writing this book. You know, I pored over it. There's so much that I want to unpack with you.

   22. JWJason Wilson2:05

       Mm-hmm.

   23. MRMel Robbins2:06

       And for anybody that is listening right now, I would love for you to talk to the person, they may be in their car, or at home, or at work, or taking a walk and they've invited us along, could you tell them, Jason, what they could experience in their life that could be different if they really take to heart all of the wisdom that you are about to pour into us today, and they apply it to their life?

   24. JWJason Wilson2:37

       Hmm. That's a really good question because so many people are suffering in silence, both men and women. And so I would tell them the one thing they would really get is finally the freedom that they desire and deserve.

   25. MRMel Robbins2:49

       Hmm.

   26. JWJason Wilson2:49

       So many of us hide behind facades, and there is no freedom there. So many men wear Superman capes that are strangling the life out of them. And so, what I offer is a path that I've traveled and successfully made it to the place where I can exist in who I am instead of what I do. And so, so many of us identify our worth in what we can bring to this world instead of just us just being in this world. And so, if they take to heart what we share in this time together, they can finally evolve to live from the good in their heart instead of the fears of how they'll be perceived.

   27. MRMel Robbins3:25

       Wow. The sentence about not being what you do-

   28. JWJason Wilson3:33

       Mm-hmm.

   29. MRMel Robbins3:34

       ... but allowing yourself to be who you are in your heart.

   30. JWJason Wilson3:38

       Mmm.
2. 8:36 – 19:06

   The Silent Crisis Boys and Men Are Facing

   1. MRMel Robbins8:36

      could you just share a little bit about your background and the work that you are doing around the world with young men, with boys?

   2. JWJason Wilson8:44

      Hmm, sure. The journey started, uh, unfortunately in my family with trauma. My grandfather was lynched in 1936. And as a result of that, um, his children, my aunties and uncles, could never release it. It was so much pain, and that was when I saw the effects of intergenerational trauma. From there, um, my mother's first marriage, um, I wasn't born yet, but it was very abusive, and she was beaten. Uh, her husband, the father of my brothers, would slap them with the flat sides of butcher knives, shoot guns in the house, and again punch her like a sack of meat. In a 1973 mail, my brother Larry, our brother, was murdered, and my mother basically lost the will to live. She would tell me, "If you, if I wasn't born," she would have taken her life. And not for the community of people who surrounded her, I don't know if she would've made it out of that. And I, I wanted to share just that brief story, because during that time, my brother and I needed a father, a man to help us navigate through that pain. But unfortunately as men, um, especially, you know, from the 1900s on, you're just taught and conditioned to provide and protect. But if you felt weakness, you were considered pusillanimous or weak, lacking courage. Um, and as a result of that, you know, I believe many of us take our lives. We commit suicide 3.5 times as likely as women, because there is no room to be human. And so when I started the Cave of Adullam, the martial arts mentoring program, that's what it was when I first started-

   3. MRMel Robbins10:23

      So you decided that you wanted to start a martial arts mentoring program?

   4. JWJason Wilson10:30

      Yes, to give the boys what I longed to receive from my father. He was in the same city, but wasn't really present in my life. So I always longed to have that man that I could have an allegiance to who would challenge me but not condemn me, train me up in the way of manhood, in the way I would become comprehensive and not overly, I guess, callous or trying to be hyper masculine or too sensitive. I wanted the right balance and I was looking for, I guess, comprehensive manhood, and didn't have, didn't find it.

   5. MRMel Robbins11:01

      Now, why martial arts?

   6. JWJason Wilson11:02

      So the sensei to me or the coach was this father figure.

   7. MRMel Robbins11:06

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JWJason Wilson11:06

      It was the yearning to heal this father wound that kept festering throughout my life. And I saw the power of martial arts, but I also saw something that was a major problem. Here it is you have men who could knock you out with one punch, choke you, tap you, sweep you, throw you at ease, but yet couldn't deal with the stress of their job.

   9. MRMel Robbins11:30

      Hmm.

   10. JWJason Wilson11:30

       Couldn't handle their wife's emotions with composure to help calm the situation that they're dealing with. You were a black belt in the gym or the dojo, but a white belt in life. And I started to connect the dots when I was fighting male, and I'm just trying to learn to fight. My instructor stops after he was sparring with me, he says, "You're, you're, you have tunnel vision." I said, "What do you mean?" He says, "You're like a shark. When it smells blood in the water, you're locked in on the prey. But you don't see the guy with the harpoon above." Why am I getting psychology...... training in martial arts, but that's what it was about. It really wasn't about self-defense, it was about self-control. And I tell all of my students, "You cannot defend what hasn't been disciplined." And so when I started the Martial Arts Mentoring Program, it was discipline-based. I did Scared Straight programs and I realized that our boys didn't need to be scared straight, they needed to be healed. How can you expect a young boy to heal from trauma by re-traumatizing him? They didn't need more discipline, they needed more love. And I shifted the model to more of, like, a safe space, still pushing them, still giving them the fire they need, but yet giving them the opportunity to share what's heavy on their hearts. And it transformed every student that I come across, because they just want an opportunity to be heard. And we have one study in-house that over 78% of our students improved their grade point average by one letter grade, and check this out, Mel, without tutoring. Simply allowing them to express the heaviness, let them see their cause and effect, to reset and refocus. It works. Even with ADHD symptoms. I have videos of kids, couldn't even sit still for two minutes, after teaching them how to breathe and then getting them to talk about what's troubling them. And that's all boys want is an opportunity to be more than, uh, strong, more than courageous. And you can't be courageous without fear anyway. You have to learn how to feel. If you have no fear, what do you have to be courageous about? There's nothing to lose. And that's all our boys want, and truthfully, that's what our men want as well.

   11. MRMel Robbins13:47

       Well, your work is now spread around the world. You've had award-winning documentary films made about the work that you're doing. After working with men and boys and helping them build emotional resilience and intelligence and helping people heal from trauma, what keeps you up at night right now, Jason? When you think about the challenges that boys and men are facing.

   12. JWJason Wilson14:12

       Um, (sighs) while I no longer stay up like I used to, um, it was hard for me to let go of the disappointments of the day when I reached the evening, um, I realized that's what tomorrow is for. And-

   13. MRMel Robbins14:23

       Ooh, say that again? Wait a minute.

   14. JWJason Wilson14:26

       (laughs)

   15. MRMel Robbins14:26

       You're like spitting poetry.

   16. JWJason Wilson14:27

       (laughs)

   17. MRMel Robbins14:27

       Every time you're talking, I'm like, "Say that again," but then I don't wanna interrupt you. Say that again?

   18. JWJason Wilson14:33

       I stopped allowing the disappointments of the day to continue into my rest. I realized that's what tomorrow was for. I can't do any more. And so once I was able to allow myself to reset, I have this, uh, a concept called The 4Rs, where I reflect, release, reset, so that I can rest. Reflect on the heaviness of my day, things that I need to let go of, things that I may need to retain. What if I was impatient with my daughter or sharp to my wife? I don't wanna release that because I need to revisit that and reconcile with them. Then I release anything, any thought that could become toxic, every emotion that could prevent me from resting. Once I've allowed that... And also I'm a spiritual man, I pray to God and I say, "I pray you're pleased with my work today, but now I need to rest." Once I follow those three, uh, reflect, release and reset, now I can rest. And so when I get to the rest piece, I let it all go, Mel. But to your question of the concern, is that I'm concerned for boys now. They're overly anxious, um, apathetic, an extreme fear of failure, um, and they're, they're longing to be loved, not only by their mothers in a certain way, but their fathers. And I have to help them navigate through all of these emotions in the moment. That's why I love martial arts, because in sports, I love sports as well, especially with comprehensive coaching, but when a fist is coming at your face, when a guy takes your back in jujitsu and he's choking you, when you're getting thrown and you're blindfolded so you have to be relaxed and accept the fall, you can't fake it. And so now these emotions surface. And so when I see boys crying and angry, I stop the entire class and say, "Why are you angry? I know you're angry." This is a surface emotion, which is why I created the, uh, Earthquake of Emotions exercise in this book. The anger is what is at the surface, the epicenter, what's damaging everything we love that everyone can see. I teach them how to express the emotions at the hypocenter. If you can stop them there, you will save what's on the surface. And so a young boy may be angry at me, ready to fight me, and I say, "Dig deeper, Christian. It's not me, it's something that happened to you." And now he cries and releases the fact that his father died when he was young, and then when his grandfather tried to help him, he passes. I had another young boy, never expressed the heaviness of his grandfather dying. Once we gave him the freedom to feel, this boy is one of the best students we have. And so when a boy can be human, when... I, I don't tell them to be fearless, 'cause no one can be fearless. Grown men or married men with children understand that when your child is born, it's like your heart walking outside of your body.

   19. MRMel Robbins17:39

       Oh, that's-

   20. JWJason Wilson17:40

       Okay?

   21. MRMel Robbins17:40

       ... amazing.

   22. JWJason Wilson17:41

       So you know, okay, okay, there is a such thing as fear. The key is that we don't succumb to it. This is the problem when you allow, um, when men allow ourselves to be defined by one adjective, masculinity or masculine. Because it's just a set of attributes traditionally ascribed to men, strength, boldness and aggression. So if that is our identity-That becomes our worth, and then our value becomes in our work, what we do. Then you wonder why so many men, especially athletes, when they retire, they have no purpose. They feel like they're worth nothing. Uh, men who are in their late 60s that I've talked to, "I can't provide. I can hardly walk." Because your worth has been in what you do. A male... I, I walk around, I take pictures whenever I see an elderly couple out. The wife is peppy, she's moving around, but the husband is on a cane or a walker, barely can move, because his entire life, he worked himself. He had to prove himself. And so many men can't even take naps, Mel. Wh- when their wives are at home. I used to jump up from a nap when Nicole would come through the door.

   23. MRMel Robbins18:53

       Well, 'cause you're gonna get in trouble if you're sleeping.

   24. JWJason Wilson18:54

       Y- yeah, but, yeah, but-

   25. MRMel Robbins18:55

       Same way with Chris.

   26. JWJason Wilson18:56

       (laughs) But that's a problem-

   27. MRMel Robbins18:57

       Yes.

   28. JWJason Wilson18:57

       ...because as a hardworking man, naps... Well, you know this. Naps are essential.

   29. MRMel Robbins19:03

       Yes.

   30. JWJason Wilson19:03

       We're starting to see how it affects our mental

3. 19:06 – 26:16

   How to Help the Men in Your Life Open Up

   1. JWJason Wilson19:06

      health.

   2. MRMel Robbins19:06

      Yes.

   3. JWJason Wilson19:07

      And s-

   4. MRMel Robbins19:07

      Jason, there is so much I wanna unpack with you-

   5. JWJason Wilson19:11

      (laughs)

   6. MRMel Robbins19:12

      ...about everything that you just shared.

   7. JWJason Wilson19:14

      Mm-hmm.

   8. MRMel Robbins19:15

      And as you keep coming back to some of these statements, freedom to feel, and there is something so much deeper going on that is causing men to feel that their worth is defined by their work-

   9. JWJason Wilson19:32

      Mm-hmm.

   10. MRMel Robbins19:33

       ...and this inability to both feel what they need to feel deep down, not the anger on the surface that we all see and the frustration, but what's underneath all of that, and the ability to rest, and, you know, it reminds me of this point. If you turn to page four in your incredible book, you write about this. There's a passage that you have in here that I actually triple underlined it. I w- I'm wondering if-

   11. JWJason Wilson19:58

       (laughs)

   12. MRMel Robbins19:58

       ...you could read the part where you talk about rest.

   13. JWJason Wilson20:02

       Absolutely. Um, "When men say, 'We're tired,' it typically doesn't mean we need sleep. It means we want rest. There is a major difference between the two. Sleep is an unconscious state that provides physical and mental relaxation. Rest, however, is a conscious state of freedom from anything that wearies the soul."

   14. MRMel Robbins20:26

       What is it that is making men and boys' souls so weary?

   15. JWJason Wilson20:35

       We're living performance-based lives. From everything we do, how we look, how much money we make, uh, how successful you are. Even the misleading mantras, for instance, you know, "No pain, no gain." That's not a universal principle, meaning it can't be applied to everything in life. So as a sports analogy, if we had, uh, you and I owned a football team and our top quarterback was injured, tore his Achilles, we wouldn't send him right back in the game and say, "Hey, no pain, no gain." Men live their lives off of that misleading mantra. Then you wonder why, truthfully, the more pain we're feeling, there is no gain. We're really living lives that are detrimental, not only to us, but to our families. We're so geared on being so strong all the time that we don't even go see the doctor. But e-

   16. MRMel Robbins21:29

       Oh my God, that's so true. I was just on Chris's case, you know, because he's, like, not able to sleep and he's-

   17. JWJason Wilson21:35

       Mm-hmm.

   18. MRMel Robbins21:35

       But this is... He never goes to the doctor.

   19. JWJason Wilson21:37

       See, see, see-

   20. MRMel Robbins21:37

       He won't allow himself to get sick.

   21. JWJason Wilson21:38

       ...why go? You're only valued for what you do. I'm not loved. I'm only loved for what I can provide. Why do you think most men, if w- you ask them, "What do you want for Father's Day or your birthday?" They say, "I'm good. Nothing." Because they're... It's... They're receiving something for just being. And that's the biggest plight I see with so many men, and it, it gets me emotional because they wear the façade like everything's good.

   22. MRMel Robbins22:05

       Yeah.

   23. JWJason Wilson22:05

       They, uh... A lot of times, families miss the, uh, forest for the trees. They miss the struggle because of the smile. Uh, when a man always says, "I'm good. Uh, nothing's wrong," that's a warning. Uh, as men, we're... If someone dies, we hug each other and say, "Stay strong." So subconsciously, we're programming each other that when we feel weak, we're not men, and say that weakness, that time is meant for us to rest and recover. Rest is not, uh, weakness or something that makes you milksop as a man. It's a restoration of strength.

   24. MRMel Robbins22:44

       Hmm.

   25. JWJason Wilson22:45

       But if we don't feel loved, only appreciated for what we do, and then what's even deeper, if we don't love ourselves, to many of us, we feel that we're only gonna find rest when we're resting in peace.

   26. MRMel Robbins22:58

       You mean like when you're dead?

   27. JWJason Wilson22:59

       Yes. So why go to the doctor? All I do is work. Why would I wanna prolong my life here? A workhorse. I don't wanna be a workhorse. I wanna be a racehorse that can finish this journey, and along that journey, I'm taking care of myself. But most men are just workhorses, and when it's time for them to be done, they're off in a pasture alone, suffering in their silence, not feeling valuable because their whole time existing, they were doing.

   28. MRMel Robbins23:33

       You know, Jason, for somebody that's listening, they're like, "You know, I think that that is true about a lot of men, but not my son. Not the guy I'm married to."

   29. JWJason Wilson23:41

       Hmm.

   30. MRMel Robbins23:42

       "He seems fine. He's okay. You know, he's watching the ball game on the weekend. He's golfing. He hasn't lost his job. We're good."
4. 26:16 – 38:27

   Identifying The Root of Emotions

   1. JWJason Wilson26:17

   2. MRMel Robbins26:17

      Really intentionally recognizing that's a moment to create space to say, "How are you? No, really."

   3. JWJason Wilson26:25

      Absolutely. Um, holding, like Nicole and I exercise, our therapist taught us, is just to sit in front of each other, knees touching, holding each other's hand, and staring into our eyes. No communication. I actually do that exercise with fathers and sons when they're going through, I guess, having some conflict. The father always is the first to start crying because words really don't express what we're feeling. The eyes, when you're looking into each other's eyes, you're looking into your son's eyes, and you know as a father where you've made mistakes, and you know, really, his behavior is tied to a lot that we're doing. To give the father the opportunity to show his love in a way without saying it, and the son sees, like, "Whoa, my dad is, like, super tough, but he must really love me. I must be really special for him to cry right now." And that's all we want. Our children just wanna know that they're the apple of our eye and not the worm in the fruit.

   4. MRMel Robbins27:24

      It seems, at least I'll speak on my behalf, that the men in my life are either angry in the way they express their emotion or they're silent.

   5. JWJason Wilson27:35

      Yes.

   6. MRMel Robbins27:36

      Is that pretty typical?

   7. JWJason Wilson27:38

      Those are safe. You can't be weak. You can't be soft. You can't be a simp, as they say. If you're just angry, if you're silent, you look stoic now. "Oh, he must be strong 'cause nothing ever phases him." And so men, anger is a very safe emotion to express. When our feelings are hurt, we're angry. When we're sad, we're angry. When we lose, we're angry. When our wives express that they wanna spend more time with us 'cause they miss us, we're angry. It's a surface emotion. That's why I tell men to dig deep. What, what are you really feeling? And I can compare it to masculinity, to, uh, the crayon analogy in this book. As men, we stay within the eight box of crayons, okay?

   8. MRMel Robbins28:28

      (laughs) Yeah.

   9. JWJason Wilson28:28

      And we may pull out four. Women have 64.

   10. MRMel Robbins28:32

       That's why we confuse you so much, Jason. (laughs)

   11. JWJason Wilson28:34

       Yeah, yeah, but, but this... Yeah. But this is, this is interesting. We were created for all of those emotions. They're not exclusive to you.

   12. MRMel Robbins28:40

       That's true.

   13. JWJason Wilson28:41

       It's there, but we've been hoodwinked by allowing society to define what a man is. And so when women are communicating with us, they may pull out... I'll use an analogy of the color violet-

   14. MRMel Robbins28:54

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JWJason Wilson28:54

       ... and all we have is purple.

   16. MRMel Robbins28:56

       Right.

   17. JWJason Wilson28:56

       We can't meet the moment. Or even more complex issues, they ask for lime, and we're trying to put green and yellow together. And because men, we're not used to expressing the gamut of emotions that we have as human beings, we can't meet the moment. And so I need to learn how to express more than my anger. If you don't trust me with the finances, it's not the anger I need to express. It's the hurt you make me feel-

   18. MRMel Robbins29:24

       Mm.

   19. JWJason Wilson29:25

       ... because my father never trusted me with anything that required responsibility, or my mother, because my brother, who was murdered, never really encouraged me to do anything that was risky. And so when a man can express his heart to his wife or the woman in his life, a mature woman, she drops her guard, and now we can communicate. Now, this is to the men, and to the women sh-... Women should listen as well.

   20. MRMel Robbins29:51

       Oh, I'm listening.

   21. JWJason Wilson29:52

       I, I, I t-

   22. MRMel Robbins29:52

       I'm hanging on every word, Jason.

   23. JWJason Wilson29:53

       I, I, I t- I tell men, "Listen. Stop allowing the fear of her using it against you to prevent you from being a human being." As we were making this journey, Nicole, uh, (laughs) and I share this story in the book, we were in the car at a grocery store parking lot.And this was the first time I expressed myself without yelling.

   24. MRMel Robbins30:15

       How long had you been married?

   25. JWJason Wilson30:17

       26 years.

   26. MRMel Robbins30:18

       So it... So, and, and, and the reason why I'm saying this, Jason, is because I speak for the person listening right now, and probably the entire planet, and that I could just sit here and listen to you as if I were in the best sermon ever.

   27. JWJason Wilson30:32

       Mm-hmm.

   28. MRMel Robbins30:32

       And the more I absorb what you're teaching us-

   29. JWJason Wilson30:37

       Mm-hmm.

   30. MRMel Robbins30:38

       ... there is no doubt in my mind that it's true, and I start to feel this sense of like, "What do I do?"
5. 38:27 – 42:00

   What Men Really Need (But Don’t Say)

   1. JWJason Wilson38:27

   2. MRMel Robbins38:27

      See, I think you just actually shared the surprising thing that no one talks about, and I'm gonna admit something. This is not gonna surprise you, but it might surprise you as you're listening to me and Jason. So as you know, Jason, my husband started a men's retreat called Soul Degree, and he leads them three or four times a year, takes 12 guys, ages 21 to 75, all different backgrounds in life. They spend five days off the grid practicing everything you're talking about, meditation, yoga, silent hikes, small group discussions about things that are happening in their life, hopes and dreams that they have, frustrations. And you come out feeling like you've reflected, reset-

   3. JWJason Wilson39:18

      Mm-hmm.

   4. MRMel Robbins39:18

      ... you know, you've released and you've rested and you feel renewed. And Chris does not share anything confidential, but I've often asked him, "What is the biggest takeaway?" And he said that universally that the men that he works with all say that they come last, that everybody's needs come before theirs. And I'm gonna tell you something, when he first told me, I was like, "That's complete BS. You guys are watching golf and you're watching the game and, you know, you go to work, but then you come home, you do whatever you want." And that was me rejecting a truth. And when I stopped myself and just said, "Okay, well, let me just process this for a minute. Do I even know what Chris's needs are?"

   5. JWJason Wilson40:11

      Mm-hmm.

   6. MRMel Robbins40:11

      "Does he even know what they are?" And it struck me because... I'd love for you to turn to chapter nine in your book, because you write about the exact same thing. It's on page 139. And I want you to read the first part of that so we can unpack this. And as you listen, you're either gonna feel validated or I want you to have an open mind about the truth of this.

   7. JWJason Wilson40:37

      "One of the most significant obstacles preventing men from breaking free from emotional incarceration and evolving into comprehensive men is the inclination to suffer alone in silence. This suffering persists because men often believe nobody cares."

   8. MRMel Robbins40:55

      See, I think that's probably the biggest problem. Do you think that's true?

   9. JWJason Wilson41:00

      Absolutely. The, this, it, it ties to that, you know, we'll say, "I'm alone." You're not alone.

   10. MRMel Robbins41:05

       Well, and I'll tell you something else. I'd say 95% of the men-

   11. JWJason Wilson41:10

       Mm-hmm.

   12. MRMel Robbins41:11

       ... that either sign up for information about Soul Degree, which is Chris's retreats, and this is probably true of the work that you do and the seminars that you do, are women who are wanting the men in their life to really get some support-

   13. JWJason Wilson41:28

       Mm-hmm.

   14. MRMel Robbins41:29

       ... and the men aren't thinking they necessarily need it. And I believe-

   15. JWJason Wilson41:35

       (laughs) Get out of my head.

   16. MRMel Robbins41:36

       ... that we have an epidemic, I see this with our son, who, "I'm fine, I got it," you know, would rather just soldier on than burden somebody else-

   17. JWJason Wilson41:50

       Mm-hmm.

   18. MRMel Robbins41:50

       ... and not even sure what he needs. And so I would love-

   19. JWJason Wilson41:55

       Mm-hmm.

   20. MRMel Robbins41:56

       ... to have-

   21. JWJason Wilson41:57

       Mm-hmm.

   22. MRMel Robbins41:58

       ... you teach us-

   23. JWJason Wilson41:59

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MRMel Robbins41:59

       ...

6. 42:00 – 48:15

   The Cost of Unprocessed Anger

   1. MRMel Robbins42:00

      what the hell do we do? Because as I listen to you and I kind of, like, think about, "Okay, I'm with you," and I see some of the mistakes that I make that are so subtle, but it's like death by a thousand cuts that isolate somebody, you know, how do you address anger in your son or your husband or your father or your brother? I mean, because if I bring it up and I'm like, "Dude, you seem angry," he's like, "Oh, I'm not." Like, so how-

   2. JWJason Wilson42:24

      (laughs)

   3. MRMel Robbins42:25

      ... I'm not, I'm not running a dojo in Detroit-

   4. JWJason Wilson42:28

      Yeah. Yeah.

   5. MRMel Robbins42:28

      ... and getting people to... 'Cause you have this groundbreaking method-... that I would love to have you explain to the person listening, but then I want you to teach me, how do I do this? How do I reach my husband? How do I reach my son?

   6. JWJason Wilson42:41

      Hmm.

   7. MRMel Robbins42:41

      How do I reach my brother?

   8. JWJason Wilson42:43

      Mm-hmm.

   9. MRMel Robbins42:43

      And I would love for you, Jason, to describe this groundbreaking method-

   10. JWJason Wilson42:49

       Mm-hmm.

   11. MRMel Robbins42:50

       ... that you developed using martial arts and boxing-

   12. JWJason Wilson42:53

       Mm-hmm.

   13. MRMel Robbins42:54

       ... to help boys in particular process emotion, and then we're gonna get into, "But what do I do at home?"

   14. JWJason Wilson43:00

       As men, um, we have to own what we're doing is unhealthy. Meaning, if we walk around with this, looking like a superhero, we're gonna keep being asked to do superhero things. 'Cause superheroes don't sleep. They don't need a life. You don't need to go hang with your friends. We first have to remove the cape, leave it at the door, or better yet, put it in the trash, and says, and say, "I'm a human being. I'm not to be treated like I don't need sleep, I'm impervious to emotional pain or anguish." And so as men, you have to first acknowledge that, "This life is not what I want."

   15. MRMel Robbins43:36

       Can I ask you a question?

   16. JWJason Wilson43:37

       Sure.

   17. MRMel Robbins43:38

       I want you to give the man listening-

   18. JWJason Wilson43:39

       Yes.

   19. MRMel Robbins43:40

       ... an assignment.

   20. JWJason Wilson43:42

       So what to do, I would tell them, first acknowledge that you're worth more than what you can do. When you get there, and when I got there, I was able to say, "I can't do it today. I'm sorry, you may be disappointed, Nicole, but I won't be able to paint the living room until next month." Sometimes the most responsible thing you can do, my brother, is to let things go undone so that you can get some rest and so that you can not only be present for your family, but to be present for yourself, to be able to look in the mirror and say, "Wow, I miss this side here. This is hurting me. This is my father neglecting me. I need to revisit this. Maybe I need to go see a therapist or a counselor, or better yet, I may need to go see my father, because the last thing I would want to happen is for him to transition out of this place with unresolved hurt, pain, and emotions, and maybe trauma." And so identify that you're worth more than what you can do. Also, your value, resting, actually is a confirmation that you're taking care of yourself. I don't say self-love, I say self-maintenance, because we as men understand what it means to maintain something. So please start maintaining yourself and practice saying no and not now. As hard as it can be as this superhero dad, superhero husband, saying no is actually saying yes to yourself. And you deserve to be treated as a human, you just now have to fight for that in a way where it doesn't condemn or hurt those that you love, but yet you make a stance in protecting where you're going.

   21. MRMel Robbins45:24

       I love that. And one of the things I wanna highlight is that the first step to changing your life-

   22. JWJason Wilson45:30

       Mm-hmm.

   23. MRMel Robbins45:30

       ... is admitting that you no longer are enjoying-

   24. JWJason Wilson45:34

       Mm.

   25. MRMel Robbins45:34

       ... the way you're living it currently.

   26. JWJason Wilson45:36

       I often tell men, "You're not tired of living, you're tired of not living."

   27. MRMel Robbins45:40

       Hmm.

   28. JWJason Wilson45:41

       And that's what men are dealing with, is, "This isn't life. This isn't worth it. Everyone else gets to eat off the fruit of my labor, and all I do is labor."

   29. MRMel Robbins45:53

       You've just heard the direct words from you about rest. What would you counsel a man to do next?

   30. JWJason Wilson46:03

       It's time to delve deep. Let's go where you fear the most, introspectively. Let's deal with the childhood trauma that keeps resurfacing, the boy that arrives in a argument with your wife. Let's help him heal. So many men are walking around with broken boys, and it's, it's truly a sad sight to see, because you can see it in their behavior, fighting at sporting events. Just the reaction, no response, just reacting to anything that pricks the skin. And so I tell men to be courageous, and let's, let's delve deep. Let's go where it will hurt, where you will feel what people would say unmasculine emotions. Let's deal with the sadness, the deep hurt of never really getting affirmation from your mother, or affection. And I love what Kris is doing, the best place to start is a retreat, especially an, uh, intensive one where you have to leave the phone and everything away and go off grid and really deal with yourself. Uh, there's another great one called the Crucible where I went on to heal from my father wound, and all throughout the entire time, I had prayed and God says, "I'm gonna show you who you are." I didn't think I was a leader 'cause my father would curse me out for the simplest things. I would never do a interview like this if I hadn't dug deep and went to the areas in my life that caused the most chaos internally. So I tell men, run to that like you would run to your family if someone's breaking into your home. You have to be okay with feeling. You have to be okay with being human. You have to be okay with revisiting the past so you can stop allowing your trauma to time travel and ruin your present. And that's what it's about. It's about, you wanna be masculine? Let's do it, let's fight right now, let's be bold and face ourselves so that now you can become a comprehensive man, now you can heal, now you can be in the areas in your life where you're needed the most. And so when men say, "How do I become this comprehensive man? I want it," I say, "Run to the areas that hurt you the most, that make you feel weak or not masculine or strong."

7. 48:15 – 54:32

   A New Framework for Understanding Men

   1. JWJason Wilson48:15

   2. MRMel Robbins48:15

      I love this framework that you develop, that you teach, called the comprehensive man, and I would love for you to explain the difference-

   3. JWJason Wilson48:27

      Mm-hmm.

   4. MRMel Robbins48:28

      ... between the masculine man and the comprehensive man. And you write about this in your book, but if you would just go...... through the six attributes of what the traditional masculine male does-

   5. JWJason Wilson48:41

      Mm-hmm.

   6. MRMel Robbins48:41

      ... versus what's available to you if you give yourself the freedom to feel?

   7. JWJason Wilson48:47

      Absolutely. So on one side of this chart, we have the masculine male, and then on the other side is the comprehensive man. So the masculine male suppresses his emotions and hides behind a facade to appear strong, as we've been sharing throughout this conversation.

   8. MRMel Robbins49:02

      And it makes you exhausted-

   9. JWJason Wilson49:04

      Yes.

   10. MRMel Robbins49:04

       ... and angry-

   11. JWJason Wilson49:05

       Yes.

   12. MRMel Robbins49:05

       ... and isolated-

   13. JWJason Wilson49:06

       Yes.

   14. MRMel Robbins49:07

       ... and never able to rest.

   15. JWJason Wilson49:08

       Absolutely.

   16. MRMel Robbins49:09

       And what is the comprehensive man? What's available to you?

   17. JWJason Wilson49:11

       In contrast, the comprehensive man expresses his emotions freely without fear of being judged. The masculine male exudes only masculine characteristics. Again, he's only strong, he's only a provider, he's only the protector, but it's not a comprehensive definition of what a man is. You wanna become a human being, not a human doing.

   18. MRMel Robbins49:34

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JWJason Wilson49:34

       And so you have to navigate through all of the characteristics that you must be as a comprehensive man. Believe it or not, you are a nurturer. How many men... Well, you're starting to see more of it now, but typically, with the aggressive dog breeds, you'll see a man with five or six Rottweilers or Cane Corsos compassionately taking care of them. But he looks, he seems, the image still is tough. The challenge is, I like to see one of you get a dog like I have, a Cavapoo-

   20. MRMel Robbins50:01

       (laughs)

   21. JWJason Wilson50:02

       ... and do the same thing, but still you can put your dog down and take care of business if someone tries to challenge you. A friend of mine, actually, I'm glad we're talking about this, he's a ex-Marine, severe PTSD, and he bought a dog, a Shih Tzu. He had no idea how this dog would change his life. And he was walking the dog one day and a guy yelled across the street, "You need a real dog." And he yells back, "When you're a real dog, you only need a pet."

   22. MRMel Robbins50:32

       (laughs)

   23. JWJason Wilson50:33

       See, that's, that's what it's about. Know who you are as a man. Doesn't matter how you view me. I love Flowers for what it does for my mind, but test me if you wanna go there. I'm comprehensive. I will not be boxed in anymore.

   24. MRMel Robbins50:47

       I wanna just stop and say, do you hear the power in what Jason is saying? "I love Flowers because of what it does to my mind, but don't you dare test me."

   25. JWJason Wilson51:00

       Mm-hmm.

   26. MRMel Robbins51:01

       "I love this little dog because I love, like, cuddling this soft, furry thing. I don't need a pet to prove that I'm a man."

   27. JWJason Wilson51:09

       Absolutely.

   28. MRMel Robbins51:10

       "I need some love in return for all that I give."

   29. JWJason Wilson51:13

       And I love aggressive breeds. Mel, I've owned Rottweilers and German Shepherds. At this stage in my life, all that I've been through, I needed something softer to come home to. Um, we can go to number three, I guess. The masculine male feels threatened when another man is more successful than him.

   30. MRMel Robbins51:32

       Hmm.
8. 54:32 – 1:03:03

   What Every Parent Should Know About Their Son

   1. JWJason Wilson54:32

   2. MRMel Robbins54:32

      If the person listening is worried about their son-Because I know there have been plenty of times where Oakley seems bottled up or bothered by something going on or angry about something, and I'm like, "So how are you doing?" He's like, "Fine."

   3. JWJason Wilson54:46

      Mmm.

   4. MRMel Robbins54:47

      And doesn't wanna talk. What do you advise us to say if we want to reach our sons?

   5. JWJason Wilson54:55

      Hmm.

   6. MRMel Robbins54:55

      But they're not talking to us?

   7. JWJason Wilson54:57

      First thing is respect their world. And I've been guilty of saying, "Wait till you get a real job. Wait till this happen. Then you'll understand what pressure is about." Once you've done that, you've put a wall up between you and them.

   8. MRMel Robbins55:10

      Mmm.

   9. JWJason Wilson55:10

      The truth is, they're experiencing more pressure than you and I did growing up at their age. So acknowledge that what's big to them should be mammoth to you.

   10. MRMel Robbins55:19

       Ooh, I love that. What's big to them-

   11. JWJason Wilson55:21

       Should be mammoth to you.

   12. MRMel Robbins55:22

       ... should be mammoth to you.

   13. JWJason Wilson55:23

       Yeah.

   14. MRMel Robbins55:23

       Because we tend to, "Oh, it's not that big of it. You'll get over it." Like-

   15. JWJason Wilson55:26

       It's-

   16. MRMel Robbins55:26

       ... "I, I, I dealt with it, and I turned out fine."

   17. JWJason Wilson55:28

       When I work with kids who are on the spectrum, I join their side. I try to become them. If you drop this pin, it may sound like a bomb to them. "Oh, how loud is it? Really, Michael? Man, how do you deal with that?" Connect with them on their world. Do not impassively dismiss your children. Once you do that, you potentially risk losing them.

   18. MRMel Robbins55:49

       Mmm.

   19. JWJason Wilson55:50

       Number two, don't worry about perfection. Worry about being present. So often as parents, we think their behavior is attributed to something we did or didn't do. They have a life outside of us. We're not there eight hours of their day. We don't know what's going on. They can bypass us because they have the cell phones now. Worry about being present. When my son is quiet and shuts down, it hurts me 'cause I love my son, but my goal is to be present. So I come to his room door and say, "Hey, do you mind if I lay down and just read? I just wanna be around you, but I don't wanna, you know, invade your space." He said, "Oh, sure." His quietness, his being reserved or short didn't have anything to do with me.

   20. MRMel Robbins56:36

       I've never actually done that.

   21. JWJason Wilson56:37

       I didn't say a word to him. I just lay down next to him. The power of my presence speaks a love that my words could never.

   22. MRMel Robbins56:45

       Hmm.

   23. JWJason Wilson56:45

       And it makes a major difference. Another thing I tell parents is, "What could you live with?" 'Cause a lot of parents are like, "Well, I'm just gonna let them do it. I'm tired of this." Never let your children just be. It's too dangerous.

   24. MRMel Robbins57:01

       What do you mean what could you live with?

   25. JWJason Wilson57:03

       Could you live with receiving a call that one of your children overdosed?

   26. MRMel Robbins57:09

       No.

   27. JWJason Wilson57:10

       That's what I mean. Or could you live with humbling yourself, feeling like you're stretching yourself beyond what it means to be a parent just so that your, your son or daughter can heal, just so they can have someone to talk to? Are you willing to inconvenience yourself and put your job down to lay in a room with your child? Or even better yet, "Hey, can we just go take a walk? Mommy's or Dad is going through something as well." I advise especially, like, businessmen that.

   28. MRMel Robbins57:39

       Mmm.

   29. JWJason Wilson57:39

       Take a walk with your children. Leave the phone at home. It's amazing what it does for the relationship because in that moment, they're the most important thing in the world. Dad or Mom just stopped everything for me. When our children know we love them, pssh, they're unstoppable. They don't need the world's affirmation. Believe it or not, studies prove that we're the most influential figures in our children's life. That's hard to deal with as a parent 'cause it's like, "Man, I'm dropping the ball sometimes." And so I say, "What could you live with?" I couldn't live with that with my son, knowing that he's going through all of that and the pressure gets him to do something that could hurt himself. I am going to do whatever it takes to stretch myself to love him. Apologize more than try to be right. "I'm sorry, son. I, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. I'm, I'm sorry that... I didn't intend that way, but so, so what? It comes from my intentions. If it still hurts you, I was wrong. Do you forgive me, son? How can we move forward? You are the most important thing to me. I love you." When we as parents can deny ourselves of ourselves, 'cause our children, that's what matters the most, not what you're doing here or what I do. When we're older sitting on our front porch-

   30. MRMel Robbins58:56

       Mmm.
9. 1:03:03 – 1:13:45

   Supporting Young Men in a Changing World

   1. JWJason Wilson1:03:03

      on his shoulders, "Hey, lay back down. You had a very long day today and I need you to take this rest in." As a man who lost his mother, I tell you the truth, when Nicole does that to me, I, she is my replacement, the nurturing for what I miss from my mother.

   2. MRMel Robbins1:03:20

      You know, speaking of moms, we have a lot of them writing in who are worried about their 20-something sons-

   3. JWJason Wilson1:03:26

      Mm-hmm.

   4. MRMel Robbins1:03:27

      ... who are failing to launch. You talked about this earlier. What do we need to know about what's actually going on when you see some, a young man struggling like that?

   5. JWJason Wilson1:03:43

      Well, first thing, when I talk to young men, younger men their age, you understand they don't have mentors.

   6. MRMel Robbins1:03:49

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JWJason Wilson1:03:50

      They're in a rough spot because the mentors now are trying to do their own thing, and they don't have time to pour into these men, these younger men. So imagine being in a world where everyone says, "Be a man," but you don't have one there faithfully teaching you how to be one. So you have frustration, self-doubt, self-condemning thoughts, you're discouraged, and more importantly you're scared. So when you see your son disengaged or staying on a game longer, those are his wins. Going to the store, uh, building something that doesn't make him money, that's something he's just trying to win at. So don't focus on that. Focus on trying to get him involved with men that could really help him become one. Um, if the father is too busy, which happens a lot of times trying to provide, you have to find an uncle or a cousin or someone to say, "Can you please pick up Johnny and take him with you to work? I'll pay you." I have men all around my son. I am a man's man. I do this, I teach this, and I know I'm not enough.

   8. MRMel Robbins1:04:59

      You know, Jason, if you could speak to the 15-year-old version of Jason Wilson-

   9. JWJason Wilson1:05:06

      (laughs)

   10. MRMel Robbins1:05:07

       ... what would you tell him?

   11. JWJason Wilson1:05:09

       First thing I would tell him is that, "You're good enough." Um, when you have so much trauma in your family, especially, uh, growing up, uh, in my community, you don't feel you're good enough. You look at society, the way you're viewed 'cause the color of your skin, your mother checking out, your father not there. I see little Jason in the field across from my home by himself playing baseball by himself, hit the ball, go get the ball, hit the ball, go get the ball. And I would tell him, "You're good enough. And believe it or not, your parents love you. One of them is wounded with so much trauma that she can't release it, and the other one thinks his worth is in his work and he doesn't see your value until he becomes an old man stricken with Parkinson's disease and now he's available and you two reconcile." So I would tell him, "You're worth everything, you're valuable, and you can cry." 'Cause so many times in my life as a young boy experiencing the loss of friends, uh... When I was in eighth grade, my friend Kelly got shot in the head by a gun that one of our classmates had. He was just passing it to a cl- uh, another classmate and the gun went off and shot Kelly. We didn't have therapists, we didn't have counselors. We had to work through that ourselves. I never cried. And as a result, I started crying the wrong way when I became a teenager. My grades plummeted, I became, uh, angry at my mom and she's the main person there and I couldn't release it. So I would tell him, "You can cry. Be human." And lastly, "Don't conform to the ways of this world." (hiccup) (sighs) Excuse me. Be you. Live from the good in your heart, Jason. If not, it's gonna lead you in areas where you're gonna put your life at risk. I almost died three times trying to be something my heart was too big for. Like Tupac said, "I- I wasn't a killer, but don't push me." And I tried to wear the suit of a thug, and I made an acronym for it after becoming a mature man, that THUG is a traumatized human unable to grieve.

   12. MRMel Robbins1:07:40

       Oh.

   13. JWJason Wilson1:07:40

       And that's all I was. And, uh, I fit in and had guns to my head before Mel, and I- I probably wouldn't be here if not for the grace of God. And so, I would tell Jason to don't try to fit in. Follow God. Follow your calling. You're unique. Don't conform, and then you'll truly, uh, carve out your way. And in the end, Jason, you'll heal. You'll find freedom. Your father, he will finally hear at the age of 37 that he loves you, and you'll finally get the affection from your mother that you longed for young when she finally gets dementia and can forget all the trauma she's been through. It wasn't until my mother lost her mind that she could actually experience life, 'cause she could no longer remember the trauma. So I would tell him to (sighs) be hopeful, become comprehensive.

   14. MRMel Robbins1:08:49

       I love you, Jason.

   15. JWJason Wilson1:08:51

       Love you, too. And I mean that.

   16. MRMel Robbins1:08:52

       I really do. And I think, um, that acronym for THUG, I think that there's more people than not who are traumatized humans unable to grieve walking around. And if you look at another person like that, you can see them with a whole lot of compassion, 'cause I think when you feel unseen or invisible-

   17. JWJason Wilson1:09:17

       Yeah. Mm-hmm.

   18. MRMel Robbins1:09:18

       ... um, or scared-

   19. JWJason Wilson1:09:19

       Mm-hmm.

   20. MRMel Robbins1:09:20

       ... in life, you forget who you are-

   21. JWJason Wilson1:09:24

       Mm-hmm.

   22. MRMel Robbins1:09:26

       ... and the kindness that's actually in your heart. Like, I am convinced that what's missing for most people is not the ability-

   23. JWJason Wilson1:09:36

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MRMel Robbins1:09:37

       ... to change or to change your life. It's the hope that anything's gonna matter.

   25. JWJason Wilson1:09:44

       Mm-hmm.

   26. MRMel Robbins1:09:45

       That despair and the unexpressed grief about all the things that you've experienced or haven't experienced is what keeps you from doing what you know in your heart you'd like to do, even if it's just saying to yourself, "I don't want to feel like this anymore. I have to make some changes." And so I- I cannot thank you enough. I am grateful for you, for the work that you do, for how much you poured into us, and I am grateful for the difference that it's gonna make in the men and the young men and the boys that listen to this and for the women who care about them enough to share this with them.

   27. JWJason Wilson1:10:38

       I'm, uh, again, honored to be here. I love you. I don't throw that around loosely. I thank you for inspiring me on many days. You have no idea. I thank you for gracefully pushing me from the smallest things, like when I asked you for an endorsement for my first book. You told me, as an exercise, "I want you to write it 'cause I don't think you know who you are, Jason." And then, when I wrote it, of course you had to make it fit what you said, but that-

   28. MRMel Robbins1:11:04

       Even bigger. (laughs)

   29. JWJason Wilson1:11:05

       Yeah, that- that- that stuck with me, Mel. Oftentimes, you know, you're helping so many people that you miss the man in the mirror.

   30. MRMel Robbins1:11:14

       Mm-hmm.

Episode duration: 1:13:45