The Reality of Adult Friendship: Here’s Why You’re Lonely & How to Make Real Friends as an Adult

1. 0:00 – 9:56

   Introduction

   1. MRMel Robbins0:00

      Friendship, it's really hard right now. And there are specific steps that you can take, and simple habits that will make new connections appear, and your existing relationships become deeper and more meaningful.

   2. KKKasley Killam0:13

      If you are feeling lonely right now, the first thing I wanna say is that it is nothing to be ashamed of. A recent study found that one in six Americans reports being isolated or lonely most or all of the time. I'm going to share with you the 5-3-1 formula-

   3. MRMel Robbins0:31

      Okay

   4. KKKasley Killam0:31

      ... for social health. You should aim to interact with five different people each week, to keep at least three close relationships, and to spend one hour a day connecting. Taking care of your social health is a way to change your life and change the world. Young people today spend nearly 1,000 fewer hours per year with their friends.

   5. MRMel Robbins0:56

      Hold on a second, 1,000 less hours a year?

   6. KKKasley Killam1:00

      Compared to 20 years ago.

   7. MRMel Robbins1:04

      Kasley Killam earned her master's degree from Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, and today she's gonna share the research, the tools, and the practical advice you need in order to feel more connected, build friendships that last, and understand why connection is the key to a meaningful life. Let's talk about whether you're creating an excuse that is destroying your social health, or this is truly a need and it's important to hold the boundary.

   8. KKKasley Killam1:32

      "I have nothing to wear." Excuse. "I need me time." I'm gonna say no, it's an excuse.

   9. MRMel Robbins1:38

      And what has the research said about the specific types of connections that you really need in your life?

   10. KKKasley Killam1:45

       There are three things to keep in mind. The first is those micro moments of connection. When you think of someone, send them a text. The second is what I call putting it on autopilot. Schedule a monthly call with your friend who lives in another city. Then the last piece is...

   11. MRMel Robbins2:04

       Are you a subscriber? If that subscribe button is lit up, it means you're not. My goal is that 50% of you are subscribers, and my team showed me that 57% of you who watch here on YouTube are not. So if it's lit up, do your friend Mel Robbins a favor and just hit subscribe. It helps me reach my goal. It's free. That way you don't miss a thing. Thanks for doing that. I really appreciate it. Kasley Killam, welcome to The Mel Robbins Podcast.

   12. KKKasley Killam2:28

       Thank you so much, Mel.

   13. MRMel Robbins2:29

       I am so excited that you're here, because the office, I'm talking, like, 50 people buzzing around like bees, so excited about what you're about to teach us about friendship.

   14. KKKasley Killam2:42

       Mm-hmm.

   15. MRMel Robbins2:43

       Why does this matter so much? What are we gonna learn?

   16. KKKasley Killam2:46

       Well, first of all, it matters because young people today spend nearly 1,000 fewer hours per year with their friends.

   17. MRMel Robbins2:54

       Hold on a second, 1,000 less hours a year?

   18. KKKasley Killam3:00

       Compared to 20 years ago.

   19. MRMel Robbins3:01

       Okay, I just want... Somebody better check my math on this, but 1,000 hours, if you put it in a 40-hour work week, is 25 weeks. That's terrible.

   20. KKKasley Killam3:16

       Yeah, and it gets worse, Mel. 67% of Americans never participate in any kind of club or organization or group, and 72% of Americans hang out with the people they care about two, one, or zero times per month.

   21. MRMel Robbins3:33

       Per month?

   22. KKKasley Killam3:34

       Yes. Two, one, or zero times per month.

   23. MRMel Robbins3:38

       Puts into perspective why people feel lonely, why people say, "I never see my friends," why people say adult friendship is so hard. What are we gonna do about this?

   24. KKKasley Killam3:49

       Well, so there's a reason that I studied loneliness from the perspective of public health.

   25. MRMel Robbins3:54

       Okay.

   26. KKKasley Killam3:54

       Because there's a lot that we need to do as individuals to take agency, to go out and spend more time with our friends, right? To change these numbers. But the reality is, we're also living in a society right now when it feels hard, right? We work all the time. We have long commutes. We're spending so much time on social media, that it feels like we're eating junk food, and we're full, and we're satisfied, but we're not actually getting the nutrients that we need.

   27. MRMel Robbins4:22

       Mm.

   28. KKKasley Killam4:22

       Right? There's so many different factors. People move around more than they used to. More people live alone than used to. So there's a lot of trends in modern society and forces that make it feel really hard. And so, you know, our goal here today is to empower you as the individual to take steps and to take action. And also, we need to slowly shift the culture that we're living in so that it's easier to be socially healthy day to day.

   29. MRMel Robbins4:51

       But you can't wait for the culture to shift.

   30. KKKasley Killam4:53

       You cannot.
2. 9:56 – 12:09

   4 Ways to Strengthen Your Social Health (Backed by Research)

   1. MRMel Robbins9:56

      one of the things that I'm curious about is, if connection and social health is so important, how do you create it?

   2. KKKasley Killam10:05

      So think about connection like you think about exercise.

   3. MRMel Robbins10:08

      Okay.

   4. KKKasley Killam10:08

      The first strategy is to stretch your social muscles. So just like you stretch your physical muscles to get more nimble and flexible, you stretch your social muscles by seeking opportunities to make new friends, to join new groups, and to interact more often. The second strategy is to rest your social muscles. So when everything feels draining, [laughs] right, you can actually rest your social muscles. It's also important to take time to connect with yourself or to scale back the amount of interaction. Loneliness isn't the only problem. It's also feeling over-connected-

   5. MRMel Robbins10:43

      Hmm

   6. KKKasley Killam10:43

      ... or connected in ways that aren't fulfilling. So just like we rest our physical muscles in between reps or in between workouts to let our body heal, we also need to rest our social muscles. The third strategy is to tone our social muscles. So this means getting deeper, right? Deepening the connections that we already have, becoming closer to them. Just like we tone our physical muscles by lifting heavier weights or working out harder, we can deepen our connections to tone. And then the final strategy is to flex our social muscles. So just like we flex our physical muscles when we are feeling really strong and looking good, we can flex our social muscles to enjoy the relationships that we have and actually sustain them in the long term.

   7. MRMel Robbins11:29

      Well, you know what I'm hearing in every one of those? Is it's on us, that we have to make an effort. And do you think that we've gotten to a point where we've forgotten how important it is, and now we're in this, like, epidemic of loneliness and disconnection? And a lot of what you're teaching right now is how social health, meaning your relationships, connection, community, family, friendship, is a core pillar. And just like you're responsible for taking better care of your physical and mental health, you gotta get serious about this.

   8. KKKasley Killam12:07

      Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely.

3. 12:09 – 16:47

   Loneliness Epidemic: How Loneliness Changes Your Brain

   1. MRMel Robbins12:09

      Could you speak, Kasley, to the person who's listening right now-... who just feels super lonely?

   2. KKKasley Killam12:17

      So, if you are feeling lonely right now, the first thing I wanna say is that it is nothing to be ashamed of. It does not mean that you are not lovable or likable. In fact, it's a really common experience. You are not alone. A recent study found that one in six Americans reports being isolated or lonely most or all of the time. So this is a really common experience, and relationships ebb and flow over the course of our lives. We move, we have kids, we go through these different life changes. It's actually a really natural symptom of our society. The second thing I wanna say to you is that just like you can go from being out of shape to physically strong again, you can go from feeling isolated or disconnected to being socially healthy and strong again.

   3. MRMel Robbins13:10

      Can you talk a little bit about what loneliness does to your brain and your body, and why it is so important to take your social health seriously?

   4. KKKasley Killam13:18

      Sure. So, the neuroscience on this is really interesting. For one thing, we see that when people are chronically lonely, that can trigger some really limiting self-beliefs. So for example, people who are feeling disconnected might go into a social interaction feeling more guarded, less likely to open up and share, interpreting negative cues more than they're interpreting positive cues. And all of that can actually inhibit them from having a positive interaction with the other person, ironically. It's a bit of a self-s- fulfilling prophecy. However, there's also good news here. So, in one study, researchers compared the brain activity of people who had been isolated all day with the brain activity of people who had not eaten all day. So they were either isolated and lonely, or they were hungry. The same brain regions were activated. So what that tells us is that loneliness registers as a cue in our brain. It's literally a signal telling you, "Hey, there's something you need that you're not getting." It's actually a really helpful thing from our bodies. So in a way, I wanna reframe loneliness as something that's totally normal, first of all, that is actually helpful, and that can be a motivator to go make the changes that you need to make in your life.

   5. MRMel Robbins14:39

      You know, I love that reframe. A- and I was just thinking about the fact that, um, so much of this we've experienced. Like, I know after a big production week where I'm here in Boston for five days and I'm around all my colleagues who I love, and, you know, I go home and my poor husband, Chris, who is an entrepreneur and who works alone a lot, you know, I come back from a w- I'm like, "Ah," and I'm all energized, and yeah, I'm tired, but I'm just, like, buzzing from the connection. And you can kinda see somebody that's been home all day has lower energy, and they may be a little bit more, I don't know, like, kinda shut down. And what you're basically saying is we have to start to take it more seriously.

   6. KKKasley Killam15:27

      Exactly.

   7. MRMel Robbins15:27

      And that if you're lonely, that there's nothing wrong with you. This is something everybody goes through. I mean, you're gonna have periods of life where you feel lonely, but there's something we can do about it, and you should.

   8. KKKasley Killam15:40

      Absolutely.

   9. MRMel Robbins15:42

      I think it's very fascinating to look at this area of your life, not like friendship and relationships and all this, but as your s- as a key pillar to your overall health. I mean, we wanna, you wanna live a good life.

   10. KKKasley Killam15:54

       Mm-hmm.

   11. MRMel Robbins15:55

       You wanna get to the end of this thing and look back, and if you've done it well, you're proud of yourself and you're surrounded by people that you care about and who love you, and you feel like you didn't squander the time. And we know, based on the research and all the things that everybody talks about and common sense, that it's the people.

   12. KKKasley Killam16:13

       Mm-hmm.

   13. MRMel Robbins16:14

       It's the people that are important in your life, and yet, as odd as it sounds, until a lot of researchers like you highlight this area of our lives, we don't really think much about it until we're lonely and disconnected. And so I wanna dig deeper into just what the research is saying about the types of connections we need-

   14. KKKasley Killam16:39

       Mm-hmm

   15. MRMel Robbins16:40

       ... and the types of relationships we need in order to have great social health-

   16. KKKasley Killam16:45

       Mm-hmm

   17. MRMel Robbins16:45

       ... and to live a good life.

4. 16:47 – 19:58

   How Friendships Improve Physical Health & Wellbeing

   1. KKKasley Killam16:47

      Mm-hmm.

   2. MRMel Robbins16:47

      And what has the research said about the specific types of connections that you really need in your life?

   3. KKKasley Killam16:54

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Let me come back to that. I first want to elaborate on something you said there, which is that connection matters for a lot more than just our moods. It matters for our physical health. It also matters for our longevity, Mel. So, people who have strong friendships have a lower risk for things like heart disease and diabetes and dementia, and have a reduced likelihood of premature mortality. So, in fact, some studies have estimated that the death toll of loneliness, when it's chronic, is up to 53%. It's comparable to things like smoking and obesity-

   4. MRMel Robbins17:33

      Wow

   5. KKKasley Killam17:33

      ... and so on. So, I say this not to scare people, but to s- to really drive home the fact that we need to take this seriously. The reason why I talk about social health as a distinct pillar from mental health and from physical health is because it affects so much more than just our moods. It affects our bodies, it affects how long we live, and how well we live.

   6. MRMel Robbins17:55

      Well, based on what you just said, like, I think we know common sense-wise that if you do not take care of your physical health, it can kill you.

   7. KKKasley Killam18:02

      Mm-hmm.

   8. MRMel Robbins18:03

      If you do not take care of your mental health, it can kill you. And what you are saying is that if you do not take care of your social health, it can kill you, based on the research that's come out about loneliness and how devastating it is to your overall wellbeing.

   9. KKKasley Killam18:18

      Mm-hmm.

   10. MRMel Robbins18:18

       And so it's clear, but-This is the first time I've actually ever thought about relationships or friendships as a pillar of health-

   11. KKKasley Killam18:26

       Mm-hmm

   12. MRMel Robbins18:27

       ... versus a thing that you need to have a happy life.

   13. KKKasley Killam18:29

       Absolutely.

   14. MRMel Robbins18:30

       Does that make sense?

   15. KKKasley Killam18:31

       Absolutely.

   16. MRMel Robbins18:31

       Wow. So we went out to 30 million followers and conducted our own little kind of research project, and I was absolutely startled by some of the responses. And what we're gonna talk about is what a lot of, uh, people are saying online, and, you know, as you're listening or watching, you maybe even answered some of these questions. 86% of the people that we asked want deeper, closer friendships. Now, when we asked, "Is it hard or is it not hard for you to make new friends as an adult?" 79% of people said it was very hard to make friends as an adult. And I share that because if you're feeling lonely or if you feel like it's hard for you to make friends as an adult or you're wondering, "Where the hell did all my friends go?" You're not alone. It, there's this shared desire to have better friends, and there's this shared frustration and loneliness about how hard it is to make new friends as an adult. But here's what I wanna ask you about. There is so much crap online right now about protecting my peace. I gotta protect my peace, and that's why I don't have time for friendship, right? And here's what I wanna ask you.

5. 19:58 – 34:46

   Stop Cancelling Plans: How to Make Time for Friends

   1. MRMel Robbins19:58

      What is the difference between protecting your peace and an excuse to disconnect that is leaving you feeling lonely?

   2. KKKasley Killam20:13

      I love it. I'm so glad that you brought this up. The first thing I wanna say is that there are certain circumstances where it's okay to protect your peace, right? Part of being socially healthy is having boundaries.

   3. MRMel Robbins20:26

      Yep.

   4. KKKasley Killam20:26

      And if there is a relationship that is really unhealthy or abusive, then absolutely, you should protect your peace. But that is the exception. That is not the norm, and I really worry that people will protect their peace so much that they have no one. And so I think that we need to reframe this idea of protecting our peace around the fact that if you want healthy relationships, they are sometimes going to be difficult. Human connection is messy.

   5. MRMel Robbins20:54

      Yeah, like, like, we, I think we need to call out ourselves, and here's what I'm gonna say. I asked 30 million people, "Do you find yourself canceling plans because you'd rather stay home and be alone?" And 73% of you were honest and said, "Yep, I cancel plans with friends, I cancel plans to see colleagues because I would rather stay home and be alone." And then when I went further and said, "Okay, well, what are the reasons why you cancel plans and you don't go out?" And I'm gonna tell on myself, okay? You ready? So this weekend, we have a, a group of friends that are getting together, and it's about 45 minutes from where my husband and I live, and they're getting together all day, and this is, like, seven couples. Now, to put this in perspective, four of these couples were at our wedding, so these are friends that we have had for 30 years. These are some of my favorite people. And I am coming off a big work week, and then I am leaving for more work lately, like... And I can already feel, even though I like every one of them, I love them, and I know it's good for me, Kasley, I can already feel myself, as I'm 48 hours away from Saturday morning, going, "Oh, do I really wanna get in the car and drive 45 minutes, and then go to their house and talk to people that I love? Or would I rather sit in my pajamas and my sweatpants on my couch and spend five hours searching through short-form videos?" 'Cause let's be honest, you're not gonna do the thing that you think you're gonna do. You're gonna sit on your rear end and do nothing, and there are times where you're tired or you're sick or that you're this and that. But I can feel it. And so why are we doing this?

   6. KKKasley Killam22:56

      Well, it's an energy thing, right? It's okay to feel exhausted and burned out sometimes-

   7. MRMel Robbins23:01

      Yes

   8. KKKasley Killam23:02

      ... and to wanna just be on the couch.

   9. MRMel Robbins23:03

      Yes.

   10. KKKasley Killam23:04

       I have a confession, Mel.

   11. MRMel Robbins23:05

       Uh-oh.

   12. KKKasley Killam23:06

       [laughs] I am an introvert, so I also love-

   13. MRMel Robbins23:10

       Now, I d- I wouldn't have picked that up at all, by the way, but... [laughs]

   14. KKKasley Killam23:14

       [laughs] I am. I love alone time. I love a canceled plan. I love a night in. Here's the thing, though. It's a balance, right? You need to balance your solitude with your socializing.

   15. MRMel Robbins23:28

       Mm.

   16. KKKasley Killam23:28

       And the fact of the matter is that even introverts end up liking the time that they connect with each other more than we think. So there was a really cool study that followed people for a week, recorded their audio conversations all day, asked them four times throughout the day, "How happy are you and how connected do you feel?" They found that the more interactions people had and the deeper those conversations were, the happier they felt at the end of the study.

   17. MRMel Robbins23:53

       Mm.

   18. KKKasley Killam23:54

       This was true for extroverts and for introverts. Even the introverts enjoyed more connection and deeper conversations. So this is an invitation to stretch your social muscles, to get off the couch now and then, to go out and take those opportunities more than you think you want. It's okay to relax and have solitude sometimes, but go out and connect more often than you think.

   19. MRMel Robbins24:18

       And I'm just telling that story because I wanna normalize the fact that I think even when you're going to see people that you care about, it is so easy to use the excuse, "I don't feel like it. I'm tired." And we all know that you feel better.Nobody wants to go see somebody after a full day of work, and yet you feel more energized after having dinner with a friend. And so, you know, I went a step further because after 73% of you admitted, "Yeah, I find myself canceling plans, not because anything's happened, I'd just rather stay home and be alone," I thought, "Okay, well what is the reason you're canceling plans?" And you did not disappoint. Holy smokes, I'm holding in my hands... And this is just the, this is just the first 60 pages of responses and reasons why people canceled their plans. We're gonna go through an exercise, and as you're listening, I'm gonna narrate this. Because in front of Kasley are two glass jars. One says Excuse and the other says Need. And what we're gonna go through is we're gonna go through and read these excuses from listeners of this podcast admitting why they cancel plans on friends even though they complain they're lonely and they want more friendship in their life. And let's talk about whether you're creating an excuse that is destroying your social health, or this is truly a need and it's important to hold the boundary.

   20. KKKasley Killam25:43

       Yeah. Let's do it. Number one, "I've carved out time to be with family." I think that's a valid need.

   21. MRMel Robbins25:50

       Yes, absolutely.

   22. KKKasley Killam25:51

       We all-

   23. MRMel Robbins25:51

       I love that one.

   24. KKKasley Killam25:52

       Yeah. We need to connect with our family as well. Love it. "I have nothing to wear." Excuse.

   25. MRMel Robbins25:57

       Oh, for God's sake. Pe-

   26. KKKasley Killam25:58

       [laughs]

   27. MRMel Robbins25:58

       Oh, my gosh. Wow.

   28. KKKasley Killam26:00

       "I would rather stay in and watch a show." Based on our conversation, that's an excuse.

   29. MRMel Robbins26:06

       Yes.

   30. KKKasley Killam26:06

       Sometimes it's okay, but you need to push yourself more often. "I feel like I cannot be myself." So that tells me that the friends who you are thinking about going out to spend time with are not the right friends for you, right?
6. 34:46 – 39:07

   How to Navigate Social Anxiety

   1. MRMel Robbins34:46

      So let's validate that having anxious feelings-

   2. KKKasley Killam34:51

      Mm-hmm

   3. MRMel Robbins34:51

      ... about putting yourself in social settings-

   4. KKKasley Killam34:54

      Mm-hmm

   5. MRMel Robbins34:54

      ... is an incredibly common and valid and can be a really challenging thing-

   6. KKKasley Killam35:02

      Yes

   7. MRMel Robbins35:02

      ... to deal with. And so if you are dealing with this in your life, I do not want you to hear judgment. I want you to hear validation.

   8. KKKasley Killam35:11

      Mm-hmm. So let me share two studies that will totally dispel this for people. So in the first study, researchers paired up two strangers. They had a conversation for a few minutes, and then they separated the strangers, and they asked them individually, "How much did you like that person, and how much do you think that person liked you?"

   9. MRMel Robbins35:30

      Oh.

   10. KKKasley Killam35:31

       And then they compared the results.

   11. MRMel Robbins35:32

       Okay.

   12. KKKasley Killam35:33

       What they found is that people consistently underestimate how much the other person likes them.

   13. MRMel Robbins35:40

       Hmm.

   14. KKKasley Killam35:41

       They also had an external person who watched the conversations and rated how much each other liked them, and they got it right. So what this means is that when we are in an interaction, we're thinking the other person doesn't like us as much as they actually do, when even to an outside person, it's obvious that we are hitting it off. So this is a case in point of our own beliefs, our own social anxiety, our own insecurities getting in the way of actually having a meaningful connection. So that's the first study. The second is a study where they had people send notes of appreciation and kind notes, just friendly notes to people they know. It could've been a close loved one, it could've been a casual acquaintance.

   15. MRMel Robbins36:25

       Yep.

   16. KKKasley Killam36:26

       Send a text saying, "I'm thinking about you." Send an email saying, "I know you're going through a hard time. Just wanted to let you know I'm there for you." Again, what they found is that people consistently underestimated how much that person would appreciate hearing from them. So here we have these studies showing us that people like us more than we think and appreciate hearing from us more than we think.That is reason enough to override that vulnerability, that insecurity, that social anxiety that you're feeling, and go for it. Go for the connection because chances are people like you more than you think, and they're going to appreciate connecting with you more than you think.

   17. MRMel Robbins37:05

       So if somebody's reason for not going out is, "I feel anxious when I think about going to social situations"-

   18. KKKasley Killam37:13

       Mm-hmm

   19. MRMel Robbins37:14

       ... is that an excuse or a need?

   20. KKKasley Killam37:16

       It's a valid excuse, right? It's an excuse.

   21. MRMel Robbins37:19

       It's real.

   22. KKKasley Killam37:20

       It shouldn't stop you from going, but that feeling is very valid and very normal.

   23. MRMel Robbins37:25

       So you, the feeling of anxiety-

   24. KKKasley Killam37:29

       Mm-hmm

   25. MRMel Robbins37:30

       ... about putting yourself in a social situation is valid.

   26. KKKasley Killam37:34

       Absolutely.

   27. MRMel Robbins37:35

       But it's an excuse because based on what the medical experts say-

   28. KKKasley Killam37:40

       Mm-hmm

   29. MRMel Robbins37:41

       ... you need to do the thing that you feel nervous about, or else those anxious feelings get bigger and bigger, and your life gets smaller and smaller. Is that what you're finding in the research?

   30. KKKasley Killam37:53

       That's what we're finding. We're finding that when you put yourself out there, chances are it's going to go better than you think. Not every time, but some of the times, maybe even most of the times. And it's worth putting in that effort, right? It's worth exercising your social muscles and trying because you never know who you're going to meet, who you are going to not be able to imagine your life without one year from now who you haven't even met yet today.
7. 39:07 – 42:02

   Why You Feel Lonely Even With Friends

   1. MRMel Robbins39:07

      So what are some of the other excuses?

   2. KKKasley Killam39:08

      Okay. I never get asked questions back. It's annoying.

   3. MRMel Robbins39:13

      That is annoying. I agree with you.

   4. KKKasley Killam39:15

      I totally agree.

   5. MRMel Robbins39:16

      It's an excuse, but you need new friends, right? Uh, that's an excuse and a need. It's an excuse that you're using not to go, but you need new friends.

   6. KKKasley Killam39:23

      I'm gonna put it under need because exactly. You need some friends where the exchange is mutual, right?

   7. MRMel Robbins39:28

      Right.

   8. KKKasley Killam39:28

      Where they listen as much as they talk, where they give and take. It has to be that mutual exchange.

   9. MRMel Robbins39:34

      Yes. So what I'm noticing, and I don't know if you're picking up on this as you're listening or watching, is that the excuses are a lot about how you feel.

   10. KKKasley Killam39:43

       Hmm.

   11. MRMel Robbins39:44

       Every time you've said need, it's typically been because you're recognizing that the people that you're about to go see are not really supportive.

   12. KKKasley Killam39:54

       Hmm.

   13. MRMel Robbins39:56

       And that that is triggering something deeper, which is the need is to recognize that you've gotta put time and energy into building supportive relationships. And maybe the people that you're about to go see are not truly a match for where you are right now, and that's okay.

   14. KKKasley Killam40:16

       Mm-hmm.

   15. MRMel Robbins40:17

       Interesting.

   16. KKKasley Killam40:17

       Yeah. I think at the heart of all of this is that fundamentally as humans, we need to feel like we are seen and heard.

   17. MRMel Robbins40:25

       Yes.

   18. KKKasley Killam40:25

       Like we are accepted for who we are, like we are loved for who we are.

   19. MRMel Robbins40:29

       Yes.

   20. KKKasley Killam40:29

       Right? Every single one of us has that fundamental need. And so if you're having too many interactions and relationships where your authentic part can't actually come through-

   21. MRMel Robbins40:39

       Hmm

   22. KKKasley Killam40:40

       ... of course, that's, that's gonna feel more hollow. You can be around people in a crowded room at a party and feel incredibly lonely if you're not seen and felt, um, in, in m- deeper ways.

   23. MRMel Robbins40:53

       And here's what I wanna say if that's happening to you. First of all, I'm proud of you for getting out there, and that's not a fun thing to feel. My, our son has felt that, like, the first year and a half at college. It's not fun to feel like you're putting yourself out there, and you're putting yourself out there, but you're not finding people that you truly connect with. And what's important, though, is that the more you put yourself out there, the more likely you are going to meet people. And after a year and a half of just wanting to isolate and feeling very lonely and being in crowded rooms and being like, "I don't drink," and, "Why are all these people, like, dr- like I, am I ever gonna find my people in college?" After a year and a half of this, he just came home for the weekend with nine guys. Like, and found his people, but if he had made excuse and isolated and made his life small-

   24. KKKasley Killam41:48

       Mm-hmm

   25. MRMel Robbins41:48

       ... that never would've happened, but it takes time. And so I wanna acknowledge you if you keep doing that 'cause you're doing the work, and you will find those people.

   26. KKKasley Killam41:58

       Absolutely. It takes persistent effort, right?

   27. MRMel Robbins42:01

       So what other

8. 42:02 – 47:40

   Too Tired, Stressed, or Busy to Socialize?

   1. MRMel Robbins42:02

      excuses you got?

   2. KKKasley Killam42:03

      I'm tired after work.

   3. MRMel Robbins42:05

      I am tired after work, Kasley.

   4. KKKasley Killam42:07

      Me too. Me too.

   5. MRMel Robbins42:08

      Okay.

   6. KKKasley Killam42:08

      And sometimes it's okay to rest.

   7. MRMel Robbins42:10

      Yes.

   8. KKKasley Killam42:10

      But sometimes you gotta get out there.

   9. MRMel Robbins42:13

      How many times have you, let's be honest with each other, you've been at work all day, you can leave at 5:30 or 6:00 and go meet your friend for dinner.

   10. KKKasley Killam42:25

       Mm-hmm.

   11. MRMel Robbins42:26

       And you cancel and lie because you say something came up at work.

   12. KKKasley Killam42:30

       We've all done it. Every single one of us, myself included, for sure. For sure. And it's okay sometimes. I mean, maybe don't lie. I think you can be honest with your friends, but-

   13. MRMel Robbins42:41

       Say, "I don't like you. I don't wanna come out."

   14. KKKasley Killam42:42

       [laughs]

   15. MRMel Robbins42:42

       No, I'm just kidding. [laughs]

   16. KKKasley Killam42:44

       Say, "I'm exhausted. I had a crazy day." I think it's okay sometimes, right? I do wanna bring that nuance to this. It's not always push yourself and get out the door.

   17. MRMel Robbins42:54

       Yes.

   18. KKKasley Killam42:54

       Um, but when we're falling back on that as an excuse all of the time-How are you going to make friends?

   19. MRMel Robbins43:01

       Yes

   20. KKKasley Killam43:01

       How are you going to meet people? You have to put yourself out there to some extent.

   21. MRMel Robbins43:05

       So is it an excuse or a need?

   22. KKKasley Killam43:07

       So many of these I kinda wanna put in both, but I'm gonna put it in excuse.

   23. MRMel Robbins43:11

       Here's one rule-

   24. KKKasley Killam43:11

       [laughs]

   25. MRMel Robbins43:11

       ... I wanna share that I've made with myself, because I do have the kind of job as the CEO of a company this size, that lots of stuff piles up, that I have a rule with myself that if I have to push something off or cancel plans, I'm not allowed to do it unless I have an alternative date that I am suggesting to move it to.

   26. KKKasley Killam43:34

       I love that.

   27. MRMel Robbins43:35

       What's the next one in the stack?

   28. KKKasley Killam43:37

       I am stressed.

   29. MRMel Robbins43:38

       I am, too.

   30. KKKasley Killam43:39

       [laughs] I'm gonna say it's an excuse.
9. 47:40 – 52:02

   How to Feel Confident Making Friends

   1. KKKasley Killam47:40

      have been feeling ugly.

   2. MRMel Robbins47:41

      Oh.

   3. KKKasley Killam47:43

      Yeah. I mean, I have a lot of compassion for that, right? Like, that is very real. Feeling insecure about anything, something that's visible to other people or not, um, is really, really hard. So I have a lot of compassion for this, and also, I want you to still push yourself, right? And I know it's hard. It's like when you work out for the first time after a long time of not having worked out, and it's so hard, that workout. You go to the gym, you just feel like you're dead, right? The first few times, it might not go well. It might be really hard when you go out and see people. But it is still worth pushing through that and building up the confidence. The people who are your people aren't gonna care how you look, right? They're gonna love you even when you're not feeling your best, and that's what we should be looking for. We should be looking for the friends who we can be honest and say, "I feel like crap. I feel ugly, and I'm feeling really insecure lately, and that's what I'm going through," and let them support you through that.

   4. MRMel Robbins48:46

      You know, I have a, someone in my life who was having a lot of issues with hormonal acne.

   5. KKKasley Killam48:51

      Mm-hmm.

   6. MRMel Robbins48:51

      And started to cancel plans because of this. And I said to this person, "Well, you go to work with it."How about you go see your friends and just talk about how much it's bothering you?

   7. KKKasley Killam49:05

      Mm-hmm.

   8. MRMel Robbins49:06

      And one night out with friends, being honest about how much they were struggling with this and how it was impacting them, made such a huge difference because they learned that they weren't alone.

   9. KKKasley Killam49:21

      Mm-hmm.

   10. MRMel Robbins49:22

       They learned s- about some things that they could try. They got the validation and the connection and the support that they really needed and weren't getting-

   11. KKKasley Killam49:31

       Mm-hmm

   12. MRMel Robbins49:31

       ... hiding alone and covering everything up and pretending everything was okay. And just exactly, Kasley, as you've been talking to us about the research, it was exactly what they needed.

   13. KKKasley Killam49:44

       Mm-hmm.

   14. MRMel Robbins49:44

       Even though the thought of doing it felt like, "There's no way I could handle this."

   15. KKKasley Killam49:49

       Sharing what you're going through takes the power out of it.

   16. MRMel Robbins49:53

       Mm.

   17. KKKasley Killam49:53

       It completely takes the power out of it, right? Suddenly, there's this relief that comes with that. So is that a need or an excuse?

   18. MRMel Robbins50:03

       Why do you feel bad about the excuses?

   19. KKKasley Killam50:04

       [laughs]

   20. MRMel Robbins50:04

       I think this is helping people.

   21. KKKasley Killam50:07

       Because I care about people's emotional wellbeing too, but I'm gonna say it's an excuse, but I have tremendous compassion for that.

   22. MRMel Robbins50:13

       Could you reflect on the size of the excuses versus true needs to have boundaries and to really protect your energy?

   23. KKKasley Killam50:23

       So there are a lot more excuses than there are needs in these jars, and what this reveals to us is that, yes, sometimes we do need to take care of our needs, and that's extremely valid, but most of the time, chances are you're making an excuse, and you need to get out there and invest in making new friends, in deepening your connections, because it is going to pay dividends for your life.

   24. MRMel Robbins50:50

       Graduation is a big deal. In fact, my husband and I have seen all three of our kids graduate, and it's one of the most emotional and proud moments that you're gonna have as a parent. I remember sitting there, watching all three of them. You get a lump in your throat, because in one second you're seeing the little kid version of them, and then in the next second you're watching them step into adulthood. It's emotional, and it's also that moment when you realize, wow, they're still gonna need some real support. Apple Gift Card is such a great graduation gift, 'cause it gives the graduate in your life options when they need the most. They can use it for the tech that they need for school or for work. Apps are gonna keep them organized, focused, and on top of life. Fitness subscriptions. And then there's all the stuff that helps them recharge: music, movies, podcasts, entertainment. I've learned something or two after doing graduation three times. If you're guessing about what to give them, you're wasting money and time. Instead of an engraved pen or a coffee mug that says, "The future looks bright," give them something they can use their way when they need it. Visit applegiftcard.apple.com to find the perfect graduation gift today. Kasley, in your research,

10. 52:02 – 54:22

    How to Make Friends With a Full-Time Job

    1. MRMel Robbins52:02

       was there any connection between how much people are working and how hard adult friendship is?

    2. KKKasley Killam52:11

       This is a great question. So Mel, 77% of Americans work more than 40 hours a week. And to be honest, everyone I know works more than 40 hours a week. [laughs]

    3. MRMel Robbins52:23

       Yeah. And then you throw in pets and kids and family and commuting and...

    4. KKKasley Killam52:28

       And it's like, where is the time, right? How do I even make time for friendships? And so this brings me to this idea that I think is really important, which is that connection doesn't have to be time-consuming for it to be meaningful. So there are a lot of great studies showing that even a simple text message or a 10-minute phone call, a 10-minute phone call can literally reduce loneliness for someone, okay? Um, s- taking five minutes to express gratitude to someone. These are really small momentary things that actually make a difference. So one of my recommendations for people is to go for connection first.

    5. MRMel Robbins53:08

       Okay.

    6. KKKasley Killam53:08

       So throughout the day, maybe we are in a meeting that ends five minutes early, and what do we do to fill that five minutes? We scroll on our phones, right? We look at social media.

    7. MRMel Robbins53:19

       Mm.

    8. KKKasley Killam53:19

       We read the news headlines, right? Or maybe you are standing in line waiting for something. Again, you pull out the phone, you're scrolling to just kill that time. Instead, I want you to go for connection first. So if you pull out your phone, text a friend. Don't go on social media, right? If you are in the car commuting or on the bus or the metro commuting to work, right, instead of immediately putting in a podcast-

    9. MRMel Robbins53:46

       Yeah

    10. KKKasley Killam53:46

        ... unless it's this one, of course.

    11. MRMel Robbins53:48

        No, it's okay. I, I wa- I want you to be connected.

    12. KKKasley Killam53:50

        [laughs]

    13. MRMel Robbins53:50

        You can listen to this while you're walking alone.

    14. KKKasley Killam53:52

        So instead of a podcast or music, call a family member.

    15. MRMel Robbins53:55

        Mm.

    16. KKKasley Killam53:55

        Call a friend who you haven't talked to in a while.

    17. MRMel Robbins53:57

        Actually, that's one thing that I do a lot. When I'm in the car, even if I only have 10 minutes, I call people.

    18. KKKasley Killam54:04

        I love that. And you can say, "I only have 10 minutes," or, "I only have five minutes, but I was thinking about you and just wanted-

    19. MRMel Robbins54:10

        Yes

    20. KKKasley Killam54:10

        ... to say hi. How's your day?"

    21. MRMel Robbins54:11

        Yes.

    22. KKKasley Killam54:11

        Literally.

    23. MRMel Robbins54:11

        It makes a big difference.

    24. KKKasley Killam54:13

        It does make a difference, because those are just small moments that help keep that relationship alive. It helps us to feel connected in the day-to-day.

    25. MRMel Robbins54:21

        So

11. 54:22 – 56:16

    How to Make New Friends as an Adult

    1. MRMel Robbins54:22

       go for the connection.

    2. KKKasley Killam54:23

       Go for connection first.

    3. MRMel Robbins54:25

       How are you supposed to meet people organically when no one looks up anymore?

    4. KKKasley Killam54:29

       Isn't it frustrating? [laughs]

    5. MRMel Robbins54:31

       It's just kinda depressing.

    6. KKKasley Killam54:33

       Yeah, and we're all guilty of it.

    7. MRMel Robbins54:35

       Yes.

    8. KKKasley Killam54:35

       I'm guilty of it sometimes too. I think what's interesting that, about that is that we've sort of optimized for convenience-

    9. MRMel Robbins54:44

       Mm-hmm

    10. KKKasley Killam54:44

        ... instead of connection.

    11. MRMel Robbins54:45

        Yes.

    12. KKKasley Killam54:46

        Right? It's way more convenient to just be on your phones or to order delivery or to put on your headphones rather than engage with each other, and I think that's a missed opportunity. So my recommendation here would be to do what you love with others. So find a hobby or an interest of yours that you can do with other people, right? And so I'm not suggesting something like yoga, where you're not actually gonna ha- actually talk to the other people, but something like volunteering in a soup kitchen that you care about or, um-Participating in a sport that allows you to talk together, or arts and crafts, things like this, right? If you love hiking, go find a hiking group. If you love painting, go take a painting class, right? If you care about some local cause, go support that. Those are opportunities to meet new people-

    13. MRMel Robbins55:39

        Mm-hmm

    14. KKKasley Killam55:39

        ... who share your interests. You already have something in common, and it depressurizes the situation, right? It's not like sitting one-on-one trying to make a good impression. You're doing a shared activity. That's really important. The research is clear that we need shared experiences in order to develop friendships. We also need consistent touchpoints, right? So if you join a local group that you care about, that's going to allow you to see those people on a regular basis. That's the recipe for meeting new people, and then take action within that to actually develop friendships if there's someone there who you really like.

12. 56:16 – 59:40

    The Best Formula to Improve Your Social Life

    1. MRMel Robbins56:16

       What's one simple guideline that we can use to start to create the amount of connections that you need to have a fulfilling life, better friendships, and to just be happier overall?

    2. KKKasley Killam56:28

       So Mel-

    3. MRMel Robbins56:29

       Yes

    4. KKKasley Killam56:29

       ... I have three blocks here.

    5. MRMel Robbins56:31

       Okay.

    6. KKKasley Killam56:31

       And I'm going to share with you the 5-3-1 formula-

    7. MRMel Robbins56:35

       Okay

    8. KKKasley Killam56:35

       ... for social health, okay? So you should aim to interact with five different people each week, to keep at least three close relationships, and to spend one hour a day connecting.

    9. MRMel Robbins56:51

       One hour a day?

    10. KKKasley Killam56:52

        Does that sound like a lot or a little to you?

    11. MRMel Robbins56:54

        It sounds like a lot.

    12. KKKasley Killam56:56

        Okay. So what I love about that is that that reveals something about your personal preferences, right? To some people, one hour seems like not a lot at all, because they're actually getting a lot more than that.

    13. MRMel Robbins57:08

        Is one hour with one person?

    14. KKKasley Killam57:10

        Not necessarily.

    15. MRMel Robbins57:11

        Okay.

    16. KKKasley Killam57:12

        It could be cumulative.

    17. MRMel Robbins57:12

        So we can, so, so I can say hello to bar- the barista for a minute. There's a minute. I can hang out with colleagues for five minutes. There's six minutes.

    18. KKKasley Killam57:20

        Exactly.

    19. MRMel Robbins57:20

        I can spend 20 minutes with my hus- Okay.

    20. KKKasley Killam57:23

        Exactly.

    21. MRMel Robbins57:23

        I, I could do, I, I, I ca- Yes, an hour a day, I'm in. I thought you meant, like, deep thoughts.

    22. KKKasley Killam57:30

        No, no, no. [laughs]

    23. MRMel Robbins57:30

        Eye contact, hour long, every day.

    24. KKKasley Killam57:34

        No, an hour total a day, to have those different moments where you're connecting with people.

    25. MRMel Robbins57:39

        Gotcha.

    26. KKKasley Killam57:39

        Now, work meeting doesn't count, right? If you spend some of that work meeting catching up personally, that counts, but we're talking about total time where you're connecting and socializing and hanging out.

    27. MRMel Robbins57:50

        Okay, and it can be with-

    28. KKKasley Killam57:51

        So that's one hour a day

    29. MRMel Robbins57:52

        ... strangers that you're chit-chatting with and complimenting. It can be with people that you're close to. It can be lunch with colleagues. It could be chatting after or before a meeting. Something that's a little bit more s- I, it's a phone call with a friend.

    30. KKKasley Killam58:06

        It could be a phone call, absolutely.
13. 59:40 – 1:17:18

    The 4 Friendship Styles: Which One Are You?

    1. MRMel Robbins59:40

       So based on 15 years of research as a social scientist, you say that there are four different friendship styles. What are they?

    2. KKKasley Killam59:48

       All right. So the first style is a butterfly. We've all heard of social butterflies. Butterflies thrive on frequent, casual connection. So if you think about a butterfly in nature, they flutter from flower to flower. They're pollinating the flowers. They're drinking nectar. A butterfly in a social context is someone who's really comfortable socializing with people, right? Is, has an easy time striking up conversation, makes people feel comfortable, and really enjoys kind of casual connection. They're a great party guest, great party host for that reason. That's a butterfly. The second is a wallflower. So a wallflower is someone who enjoys selective, infrequent connection.

    3. MRMel Robbins1:00:32

       Hmm.

    4. KKKasley Killam1:00:32

       So this is someone who, just like a wallflower in the wild that's kind of grows along the walls, and it blooms in the springtime, but otherwise it's kind of hides away, right? A wallflower in a social context is someone who prefers to be a listener, right? Takes some time to warm up and get comfortable with people. But they're really paying attention, and often is really good at empathizing.

    5. MRMel Robbins1:00:56

       Hmm.

    6. KKKasley Killam1:00:56

       So that's a wallflower. The third style is a firefly. So a firefly is someone who enjoys infrequent but deep connection. So someone who loves a lot of solitude, but when they're with their friends and family, skips straight past the small talk and loves having those deeper conversations. So think about w- uh, fireflies in the wild. They glow in synchrony with other fireflies, and then they disappear into the night sky.

    7. MRMel Robbins1:01:24

       Hmm.

    8. KKKasley Killam1:01:24

       That's like a firefly in a social situation, who loves coming alive for those deeper conversations and then fades away and likes to be alone.The last style is an evergreen.

    9. MRMel Robbins1:01:36

       Hmm.

    10. KKKasley Killam1:01:37

        So just like an evergreen in the wild, it's green all year round always, right? An evergreen is someone who loves a lot of deep connection. So it's someone who is constantly in communication with their close friends and family, and they are going deep all the time, right? They're really brought alive by those deeper conversations, and they're constantly socializing.

    11. MRMel Robbins1:01:59

        So why does it matter to know what your friendship style is, whether you're a wallflower, which I just realized one of my closest friends is-

    12. KKKasley Killam1:02:06

        Mm-hmm

    13. MRMel Robbins1:02:06

        ... whether you're a butterfly, which I realize another one of my friends is-

    14. KKKasley Killam1:02:10

        Mm-hmm

    15. MRMel Robbins1:02:11

        ... or whether you are the firefly-

    16. KKKasley Killam1:02:13

        Mm-hmm

    17. MRMel Robbins1:02:13

        ... or you are a deep connection person-

    18. KKKasley Killam1:02:17

        Evergreen

    19. MRMel Robbins1:02:17

        ... primarily.

    20. KKKasley Killam1:02:18

        Yeah.

    21. MRMel Robbins1:02:18

        Evergreen.

    22. KKKasley Killam1:02:19

        So it matters because, first of all, it's helpful self-insight, right? It's understanding ourselves better. What are your preferences?

    23. MRMel Robbins1:02:27

        Yep.

    24. KKKasley Killam1:02:27

        What is your comfort zone? What are the social situations in which you're gonna feel totally relaxed and confident?

    25. MRMel Robbins1:02:33

        Hmm.

    26. KKKasley Killam1:02:33

        And how can you create more of those and seek those out, right?

    27. MRMel Robbins1:02:36

        Yes.

    28. KKKasley Killam1:02:37

        It also is helpful in the context of a friendship to know what the other person's style is because it's very easy, for example, to be offended if we don't hear from someone all the time.

    29. MRMel Robbins1:02:49

        Hmm.

    30. KKKasley Killam1:02:49

        Or the opposite, to feel drained when someone's reaching out more than you want, right? And in fact, it might not be personal at all. It might just be a reflection of what their style is, right? Some people wanna hang out all the time, some people don't, and that's not something we necessarily need to take personally. So I think having these conversations helps people to just normalize we're all different. There's not one that's better than the other. Each of these has qualities that are fantastic, and each of them has their own challenges that they need to work through.

Episode duration: 1:17:23