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The Secret to Stopping Anxiety & Fear (That Actually Works) | The Mel Robbins Podcast

Order your copy of The Let Them Theory 👉 https://melrob.co/let-them-theory 👈 The #1 Best Selling Book of 2025 🔥 Discover how much power you truly have. It all begins with two simple words. Let Them. — If you struggle with anxiety, this episode will change your life. In today’s conversation, Mel sits down with Harvard Medical School psychologist and world-renowned anxiety expert Dr. David Rosmarin — and he’s about to flip everything you think you know about anxiety on its head. By the end of this episode, you are going to know exactly what anxiety is, the things you’re doing that are making it worse, and how you can look at it in a whole new way. You’ll also learn exactly how to help somebody who is struggling with it. If you feel trapped by anxiety, or you've been trying to outrun it, what Dr. Rosmarin is about to share will set you free. He’s here to share a simple way to stop spiraling thoughts, find clarity, and finally feel in control. Dr. Rosmarin is one of the world’s leading experts on anxiety and the founder of The Center for Anxiety. He’s an associate professor of psychology at Harvard Medical School and director of the Spirituality and Mental Health Program at McLean Hospital, one of the top psychiatric hospitals in the world. Whether your anxiety is keeping you up at night, holding you back at work, making parenting harder, or bringing life in general to a grinding halt, this episode will give you the tools — and the hope — you’ve been looking for. For more resources related to today’s episode, click here for the podcast episode page: https://www.melrobbins.com/episode/episode-292/ Follow The Mel Robbins Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/themelrobbinspodcast I’m just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is NOT intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I’ll see you in the next episode. In this episode: 00:00 Welcome 00:36 The Truth About Anxiety That Nobody Told You 08:00 The First Thing to Ask When You Feel Anxious 15:40 The Four-Step Process to Managing Anxiety 23:42 The One Mindset Shift to Make You Brave 36:18 How to Decode Your Anxiety 42:05 What to Do If Your Child Is Anxious 44:26 Why Women Have More Anxiety Than Men 45:31 Transform Anxiety Into Your Ally 53:13 Simple Tools For Managing Your Anxiety 59:10 The Science of Thriving with Anxiety — Follow Mel: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melrobbins/ TikTok: http://tiktok.com/@melrobbins Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melrobbins LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melrobbins Website: http://melrobbins.com​ — Sign up for Mel’s newsletter: https://melrob.co/sign-up-newsletter A note from Mel to you, twice a week, sharing simple, practical ways to build the life you want. — Subscribe to Mel’s channel here: https://www.youtube.com/melrobbins​?sub_confirmation=1 — Listen to The Mel Robbins Podcast 🎧 New episodes drop every Monday & Thursday! https://melrob.co/spotify https://melrob.co/applepodcasts https://melrob.co/amazonmusic — Looking for Mel’s books on Amazon? Find them here: The Let Them Theory: https://amzn.to/3IQ21Oe The Let Them Theory Audiobook: https://amzn.to/413SObp The High 5 Habit: https://amzn.to/3fMvfPQ The 5 Second Rule: https://amzn.to/4l54fah

Mel RobbinshostDr. David Rosmaringuest
May 26, 20251h 6mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:36

    Welcome

    1. MR

      This is one of the biggest things I've been asked. (keyboard clicking) I either have somebody that I love that's struggling with anxiety or I am suddenly very anxious. Where do I even start? Literally, in a matter of a minute, we are sitting down with one of the world's leading anxiety experts from Harvard University.

    2. DR

      You've been taught since birth that something's wrong with you if you're anxious. You've been taught by your parents, you've been taught that by your teachers, you've been taught that by society. We are getting it wrong.

    3. MR

      Dr. David Rosmarin is about to flip everything that you and I know on its head about anxiety. (suspenseful music)

  2. 0:36 – 8:00

    The Truth About Anxiety That Nobody Told You

    1. MR

      Dr. David Rosmarin, I am so excited that you're here.

    2. DR

      I am even more excited.

    3. MR

      I would love for you to tell the person listening, who has made the time to learn from you today, what could change about their life or the person's life that they're gonna share this with if they take everything to heart that you're about to share with us, based on all of your experience, and they use it in their life?

    4. DR

      There are two things.

    5. MR

      Okay.

    6. DR

      The most fundamental is to stop judging yourself for feeling anxious, to stop feeling anxious about the fact that you have anxiety in your life, because everyone does. It's a normal human emotion. In fact, if you don't have anxiety, something's probably wrong. That's number one. And number two, once you accept that it's part of your life, you can use it as an ally instead of an enemy.

    7. MR

      That's a pretty tall promise, the ally versus an enemy, because I think anybody who is struggling with anxiety or watching somebody struggle with it, it does seem like an enemy.

    8. DR

      It sure does.

    9. MR

      And that's why I was really curious, because the title (laughs) of your bestselling book is Thriving with Anxiety, 'cause when I hear thriving with anxiety, it almost presumes that I gotta keep it, and I'm like-

    10. DR

      (laughs)

    11. MR

      ... "But Doc, I don't, I wanna thrive without this stuff."

    12. DR

      Of course.

    13. MR

      So, what is possible when you say you can make it an ally or you can thrive?

    14. DR

      I would say it's almost as counterintuitive as let them.

    15. MR

      What do you mean?

    16. DR

      (laughs) Well, I don't wanna let them. I wanna control them. I wanna stop them, these annoying, irritating situations in my life. Once you accept that you can't, that actually becomes a resource for you to become more resilient, more connected to people who are worth connecting to, worth focusing more on things in your life that you can control, and anxiety is the same way. It's kind of like let them for your internal world.

    17. MR

      So, meaning that because we don't understand what anxiety actually is and because we're afraid of it, actually, it reminds me of a passage in your book that I wanna read to you-

    18. DR

      Oh.

    19. MR

      ... that I found so interesting. Okay. "Anxiety is nothing to fear in and of itself." This is page 35 I'm reading from. "My office has serviced over 10,000 patients."

    20. DR

      Correct.

    21. MR

      "And we have never had a patient die from anxiety. No one has ever been hurt from their anxiety symptoms or 'gone crazy' from the acute experience of anxiety," even though I'll add that you often feel like you're going crazy.

    22. DR

      Sure.

    23. MR

      And you write, "Yes, people can develop behavioral problems in the context of anxiety, including alcohol or substance misuse, self-injury, and suicida- allit, suicidalality. The last thing you want is to flood your system with more adrenaline, so reacting with catastrophic or self-judgmental thoughts to the fear response only makes it worse." And so what I take from just that passage-

    24. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    25. MR

      ... is that we kinda have anxiety all wrong, and because we do, we're making it worse.

    26. DR

      100%. That's exactly what's happening. Our society is over-medicalizing, over-pathologizing a normal human emotion. Now, don't get me wrong. At a certain point, it does become pathological, but we are conflating clinical, pathological anxiety with normal anxiety that all healthy human beings experience. And in making all of that one big lump of craziness, (laughs) we have become allergic to the normal side of anxiety, and that's creating the anxiety epidemic today.

    27. MR

      Wow. So, will you unpack that allergic part? Because you also write that, write about that in your book, that-

    28. DR

      Sure.

    29. MR

      ... anxiety's almost like an allergy. So, you just said something that I think needs to be said even louder, which is, there's a massive difference between the kind of chronic, crushing anxiety that becomes a massive, debilitating problem-

    30. DR

      Yes.

  3. 8:00 – 15:40

    The First Thing to Ask When You Feel Anxious

    1. MR

      whoa. Is this a normal set of nerves based on what's going on and a sign that I'm actually mentally well, or is this something way bigger?"

    2. DR

      Correct.

    3. MR

      Could you just explain to the person listening how exactly you found yourself in this work and-

    4. DR

      (laughs)

    5. MR

      ... starting the Centers for Anxiety? Like, what led you here? (laughs)

    6. DR

      Sure. Um, looking back in the last 20 years, I would probably, if I had to be honest, it's gonna be my own anxiety, and this has very much been a personal journey for me. I was taught in graduate school, I was taught in my training to diagnose, treat, help people to get rid of their clinical anxiety.

    7. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    8. DR

      And those tools are still something that I use on a daily basis, um, in, uh, in a variety of different, you know, contexts in my, in my work. But, you know, so it took going through the pandemic to actually click into this concept that not all forms of anxiety are problematic and bad, and we can potentially even use those lower levels of anxiety in a constructive, positive, healthy way to help us to thrive and to grow in our lives.

    9. MR

      Well, I mean, I'll just admit right away, you know, having struggled with anxiety for almost 30 years, um, you know, I'll take full responsibility for the fact that I, I was afraid of anxiety. I hated it. I ran from it. I tried to drink it away. I tried to outwork it.

    10. DR

      Yup.

    11. MR

      And none of it worked. And some of the medications worked to mute it, and they were life-saving ladders to help me climb-

    12. DR

      Good.

    13. MR

      ... out of a hole, but not understanding what you're talking about already, and so I want to take a giant highlighter and say, "There's a huge difference between low-level anxiety that is normal-

    14. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    15. MR

      ... and the higher level debilitating anxiety that is the focus of your clinical practice."

    16. DR

      Correct.

    17. MR

      We're gonna get to, into the tools that you can use for yourself and you can also use with people in your life that are feeling anxious, but I should probably just back up and start with some of the basics.

    18. DR

      Sure.

    19. MR

      What is your definition of anxiety, Dr. Ross Maron?

    20. DR

      Okay. Um, there are cognitive aspects, things that are going on in your mind. There are physiological or emotional aspects, and then there are behavioral aspects, usually avoidance, but maybe some checking. So let's go through them. The cognitive aspects, worry, apprehension, you're nervous something is gonna happen, focusing on the negative thoughts spinning in your head. "If I go to this event, somebody will judge me. People won't, you know... My- I will have a panic attack. I'm not gonna feel good. I'm not gonna be able to manage it."

    21. MR

      "If I don't do well in this sales meeting, I'm gonna get fired."

    22. DR

      Sure.

    23. MR

      Yeah. "If, if I-"

    24. DR

      "And then I'll be done."

    25. MR

      "... if I don't wear the right thing on this date, they're not gonna like me."

    26. DR

      At best. (laughs) Maybe even worse. Um, "Never have another date again," right? "This is my only opportunity. I'll be alone- I'll be alone forever."

    27. MR

      Oh, I see what you mean by at best. The thoughts are way worse.

    28. DR

      Could be.

    29. MR

      "I'm never gonna find anyone. I'm gonna always be the single for blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."

    30. DR

      Sure.

  4. 15:40 – 23:42

    The Four-Step Process to Managing Anxiety

    1. DR

      human emotion, and then once we accept that, what do I do with it?

    2. MR

      So we're gonna go into your four-step process that you use in your clinical practice. Can you just tell it to us at a top level?

    3. DR

      The four steps are as follows, identify, share, embrace, and let go. And I'll explain each one. Identify means getting to the root. What are you truly afraid of? Instead of putting it out of your mind, instead of squelching the symptoms, go there, think about it, get to what's actually bothering you. Two, share. Talk about it with someone else. Open up about it. Make it a point of connection as oppo- as opposed to sitting in- in a state of loneliness. Three, embrace, your favorite. Do that which makes you feel anxious when you're ready and at a s- at a rate that you're comfortable with, but that is the path for emotional resilience. And finally, let go. There are certain things we can't control. Anxiety is always surrounded around control, and at a certain point, we need to let go. To the extent that you can do that, you've completed the four steps.

    4. MR

      It seems so simple, which is probably why it works so well. Let's take a kid who has trouble doing a sleepover, which is a very normal thing.

    5. DR

      Very common.

    6. MR

      Oh, even bigger one-

    7. DR

      Sure.

    8. MR

      ... a kid who is anxious about throwing up.

    9. DR

      Uh, happens every day. (laughs)

    10. MR

      Well, and my son, even to this day, at the age of 19-

    11. DR

      Okay.

    12. MR

      ... hopefully will allow me to share this, is afraid of throwing up. Even though he has thrown up and knows that he can throw up, he still will get anxious about throwing up, and it was a huge thing when he was a kid.

    13. DR

      Yup. So if he were here, I would want to know what's the focus of his apprehension. That's a very fancy way of saying, what's at the root of his anxiety? Can we identify, what is he really afraid of? When you vomit, it's unpleasant. Is it the taste? Is it embarrassing yourself? Is it-

    14. MR

      Hm.

    15. DR

      ... uh, some sort of, uh, just the gag reflex and you just don't like how it feels? But if so, I'd want to know what about it. Did he watch a video once and there's an association with that video? I- I would- I would have a whole bunch of questions here to ask with no judgment, simply to explore what about that situation is so upsetting for him?

    16. MR

      You know what I love about this?

    17. DR

      What?

    18. MR

      Is that-

    19. DR

      (laughs)

    20. MR

      ... I so screwed this up 'cause I'd be like, "You're not gonna get sick. You're gonna be fine. It'll happen. There's a nurse at school."

    21. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    22. MR

      "Get on the bus." And what you're doing is you're actually slowing down that micro moment and you're going deeper and saying, "Well, what would happen and what is it really?" And- and when you get to that answer, let's just say it's that...I just hate the taste and I hate the pressure on my face-

    23. DR

      Yeah.

    24. MR

      ... and I hate it that it's gonna happen and you're not there, or that somebody's gonna see it.

    25. DR

      Ooh, hold on. That this is gonna happen and you're not there is important. What about vomiting without mom is upsetting? I'd wanna know that. If that's what he w- if that's, I would probe... Based on what they say, I'm gonna probe a little bit further and get, like, w- what about that specifically is gonna be upsetting to you?

    26. MR

      You know, I heard our pediatrician share with me that the fear of throwing up is one of the biggest fears that kids have behind their parents dying. And when you hear kids talk about this in your, in your practice, like, what typically is underneath some of these very common things that cause kids anxiety, whether it's sleepovers or it's separation anxiety or it's throwing up?

    27. DR

      Yeah. I'll, I'll tell you what I, I often think it is about the throwing up. There's an association 'cause, like, the kid threw up at some point-

    28. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    29. DR

      ... and one of the parents cleaned it up and it was not pleasant.

    30. MR

      Mm.

  5. 23:42 – 36:18

    The One Mindset Shift to Make You Brave

    1. DR

      Sure.

    2. MR

      And, and so if embracing anxiety, after you've identified what am I really scared of, you share it. Now we gotta embrace the thing you're actually scared of, that root thing, right?

    3. DR

      Correct.

    4. MR

      How do you do that? Can you share examples?

    5. DR

      Sure. There's this brilliant approach called the five-second rule.

    6. MR

      Oh, no.

    7. DR

      (laughs)

    8. MR

      Do not turn my work back on me.

    9. DR

      Am I wrong?

    10. MR

      No.

    11. DR

      That's what it is. I'm getting out of bed even though I feel like hell right now. I'm gonna do this. I don't want to... You know, I've had people with a fear of snakes, okay?

    12. MR

      Okay.

    13. DR

      I literally have a guy on speed dial who I can-... should I bring him in?

    14. MR

      No.

    15. DR

      (laughs)

    16. MR

      Not right now.

    17. DR

      That's fine. You're not ready for it.

    18. MR

      So you have to... So you, so how do you coach somebody through this? Because you do have a section in your book where you, um... Let's see here. I marked it actually, it's page 96, Facing up to Anxiety.

    19. DR

      Exposure therapy, yeah, chapter three.

    20. MR

      Is exposure share therapy the only answer?

    21. DR

      It's not the only answer. It's a very, very good tool. And when you have clinical anxiety, it has to be part of the picture. If you're not going to face your anxiety eventually, it's very, it's gonna be hard to get over it. But I think it's one step. I think we do have to identify it, we do have to share it.

    22. MR

      Right.

    23. DR

      We do have to embrace it, and I think there's something beyond it, but let's focus on exposure therapy for now.

    24. MR

      Okay. So you're afraid of flying?

    25. DR

      You're gonna fly, uh, at some point. When you're ready. We're gonna take... By the way, are you more nervous about short hauls or long hauls?

    26. MR

      Me?

    27. DR

      No, just let's make it up.

    28. MR

      Oh, got it. Probably smaller planes.

    29. DR

      Smaller planes, great. Perfect. So there's an airline that goes out of Boston Logan called Cape Air.

    30. MR

      (laughs)

  6. 36:18 – 42:05

    How to Decode Your Anxiety

    1. DR

      order to function.

    2. MR

      And there are plenty of times like, you know, I- I'm-

    3. DR

      Correct.

    4. MR

      ... I'm assuming, is all anxiety the same?

    5. DR

      No. Here, I'll tell you the way I think about it.... a-anxiety occurs on a scale of zero to 10.

    6. MR

      Mm.

    7. DR

      But really, there's no zeros, 'cause no one has zero anxiety, and there's no 10 because that would be literally catastrophic. So we're left with one to nine.

    8. MR

      Okay.

    9. DR

      One, two, three is low. Four, five, six is medium. Seven, eight, nine is high. If you're at a seven or eight and a nine, you probably need something professional to take it down to a mid-range.

    10. MR

      And how would you, as a, as a doctor and an anxiety physician, therapist, how, how would you actually categorize a seven, eight, or a nine?

    11. DR

      If it's r- getting in the way of your l- at that level, it's gonna be getting in the way of your life. If you're feeling-

    12. MR

      Meaning it's disrupting your sleep, you're avoiding doing what you need to do.

    13. DR

      Yeah, if you can't sleep because of your anxiety, that's a dysfunctional issue. That's something that has to be addressed.

    14. MR

      And now let's go with the kind of four, five, six.

    15. DR

      Four, five, six, so that, now it depends. Some people can function actually reasonably well at a four, five, and a six. Six maybe less likely, but a four and a five, for sure.

    16. MR

      What would you be hearing typically from someone in your practice if they were saying, "I'd say my worry and anxiety is about a four, five, or a six"?

    17. DR

      It depends on what's going on. Are they, um, you know, a- an emergency room doctor? Are they, you know, going through med school or are they going through a- a breakup? Are they starting a new... Do they have a new baby? (laughs) You know, then, okay, like people have periods of time where they might ramp up, and that actually might enhance their performance. It might enhance their connection. You can use it.

    18. MR

      The important thing there that I wanna make sure that the person listening understands-

    19. DR

      Yes.

    20. MR

      ... is that what you just identified, first of all, it's that step one that you taught us of identify what's the root cause.

    21. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    22. MR

      And there's a huge difference in those moments in your life where something is causing you to be on edge, and you to be nervous, and you to be worried and doubting yourself, or scared about what's gonna happen, because that, to me, sounds like there's a situation. You know, I mentioned at the beginning of, um, this episode that literally two hours before you walked in the studio-

    23. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    24. MR

      ... I got a text from a very close friend of mine who said, "My daughter is unable to sleep, has crushing anxiety," and then added that there is this massive medical test that she needs to take for med school, which to me said, oh, well, there's this thing happening that is high stakes that explains it, but because my friend has never dealt with this with any of her kids-

    25. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    26. MR

      ... and because it's really scary when you-

    27. DR

      It is scary.

    28. MR

      ... see somebody who's normally seems like they have it pulled together truly start to spiral, you don't know what to do. And what I said to her is, "Well, I'm gonna tell you something. First of all, it seems appropriate that she's nervous because-"

    29. DR

      Great.

    30. MR

      "... she has high stakes, but I've got the world's leading expert walking in here."

  7. 42:05 – 44:26

    What to Do If Your Child Is Anxious

    1. MR

      I do wanna stay on this topic even though it's very self-serving, because I feel like I screwed this up, and it's the sleepover topic. You're a parent. You have a child.

    2. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    3. MR

      They are opting out, and you're very worried. It's getting into the four, fives, and six. You're not with them eight hours a day, so you're not a part of what's happening at school.What do I do in those moments when I have a child that's really anxious? Do I force them to go to the sleepover? Do I... What do I do?

    4. DR

      Validate, validate, validate. There's a reason why they don't want to go to the sleepover, and even if it doesn't make sense to you, it makes sense to their anxiety. You have to delve into that anxiety with them and allow them to explore it. The more you say, "Oh, there's no reason to be upset," the more they're just gonna think that their anxiety is a problem and not even... They might not even be conscious of what they're afraid of.

    5. MR

      Mm.

    6. DR

      But if you just ask them, like, "Well, why wouldn't you want to go to the sleepover?" Not judging, just asking, "What about that..."

    7. MR

      "What if I wake up and I'm scared?"

    8. DR

      Yeah, that would be upsetting. What would happen if you were to wake up and...

    9. MR

      Then I'd have to wake up Mrs. So-and-So and they'd have to come get you and it'd be really embarrassing.

    10. DR

      Well, I understand then why you wouldn't want to have a sleepover.

    11. MR

      I just like my bed. I'd rather be in my bed.

    12. DR

      Yeah. Well, that's the comfort thing. You j- By the way, that, the kid just changed the topic. Now we're talking about comfort as opposed to anxiety. So I would probably double back and say, like, "Well, w- what about that Mrs. So-and-So would have to, you know, drop, call you up and you'd have to pick me up and it'd be a whole thing? What about it, would people be talking about it the next day?"

    13. MR

      Mm.

    14. DR

      "Would it be a social thing? Would it be... Are you more embarrassed about the parents thinking about you, about your friend?"

    15. MR

      Mm.

    16. DR

      "Would you feel worse about yourself?" And just explore it.

    17. MR

      There's so much there, because now I'm starting to think like, "Gosh, they probably also feel self-conscious, like they can't do something that their friends can do, and that makes them seem like more," and then you might find out that their friends actually aren't that nice. Like, I can see how there's a lot there.

    18. DR

      And it's so individual to that person.

    19. MR

      Wow.

    20. DR

      But when we unpack it, we actually learn who the kid is. If you snuff out the anxiety, you'll never know what's really going on.

    21. MR

      Is there a difference between the way that

  8. 44:26 – 45:31

    Why Women Have More Anxiety Than Men

    1. MR

      women and men or boys and girls tend to exhibit symptoms of anxiety?

    2. DR

      So, great question. Women have about twice as much clinical anxiety as men.

    3. MR

      Why?

    4. DR

      They are, tend to be a lot harder on themselves and judge themselves for being anxious and don't really allow themselves to experience those feelings. If a guy's feeling anxious, like, "Well, I'm, something's wrong and, like, there must be a reason."

    5. MR

      Yeah.

    6. DR

      You know, you know, women are more like, "Something's wrong with me."

    7. MR

      It's so true.

    8. DR

      And that's feed-

    9. MR

      Well, you know, there's interesting research-

    10. DR

      That's just feedback.

    11. MR

      It does. There's interesting research about, like, if a, if a guy loses a job, when he gets his nest- next job, there's no difference in the salary he makes. When a woman loses her job, she turns it back on her, becomes anxious and starts doubting herself and her capability of handling this and tends to take literally a 25%-

    12. DR

      Lower-paying job.

    13. MR

      -salary cut.

    14. DR

      Yeah. .

    15. MR

      And so this has very, very real implications. Are there topics that you find that boys and men are more anxious about than women?

  9. 45:31 – 53:13

    Transform Anxiety Into Your Ally

    1. MR

    2. DR

      Um, no. I think men will often snuff out the anxiety a little bit more and be a little more disconnected from it. Like, we see higher incidences of, uh, substance and alcohol abuse.

    3. MR

      Mm.

    4. DR

      Um, and that's usually, you know, often happens when people are feeling anxious and don't want to talk about it, don't want to think about it.

    5. MR

      How do you turn a- anxiety, though, into an ally instead of an enemy?

    6. DR

      Great. So-

    7. MR

      When you're afraid of it?

    8. DR

      Oh, it is terrifying, but therein lies the opportunity. That's what creates the opportunity for self-discovery. The reason you're freaking out about it is because it matters. So identify what's at the root of it, share it with someone else, embrace it when you're ready, and then the next step is letting go, (laughs) which is the hardest one, but that's, that's where, that's where it's all, what it's really all about.

    9. MR

      You know, I was a little skeptical when we first started talking, but I really love your approach to this.

    10. DR

      Well, let me say it this way. I think all human beings would benefit from acknowledging the limits of what we can control-

    11. MR

      Mm.

    12. DR

      ... and leaning into that and letting go. There's a difference between losing control, where it's taken away from us involuntarily-

    13. MR

      Mm.

    14. DR

      ... versus giving up control, like you do on a roller coaster.

    15. MR

      True.

    16. DR

      That latter experience, when we don't have control over a situation, so if we're like, "Okay, it ain't my wheel."

    17. MR

      Right.

    18. DR

      Then the anxiety can actually be an uplifting, exhilarating experience where we lean into the fact that we aren't in control and that's okay.

    19. MR

      And so you are letting go-

    20. DR

      You need to let go.

    21. MR

      ... of the need for proof and just choosing to believe.

    22. DR

      Correct. Correct.

    23. MR

      And what I think you're believing, especially in those moments of anxiety, is that you're gonna be okay and that you have the capability and the capacity to handle this and to face whatever comes.

    24. DR

      Even though it's overwhelming and beyond you.

    25. MR

      Yes.

    26. DR

      That somehow, something in your humanity will be able to rise to the challenge. Who knows how, who knows when, who knows where. Methods are unclear, the path is opaque, but I'm gonna continue to trout along it, uh, trot along it with some sort of level of surrender.

    27. MR

      I mean, at, at its deepest level, it's trusting in life.

    28. DR

      Correct.

    29. MR

      And, you know, actually, it reminds me of something that you wrote-

    30. DR

      Okay.

  10. 53:13 – 59:10

    Simple Tools For Managing Your Anxiety

    1. DR

    2. MR

      So you have so many tools in your book, Thriving With Anxiety. What are some tools that the person who's listening can put to work, like, right now so that anxiety enriches their relationship with themself? 'Cause that's a, that's a really beautiful thing that is possible to you, that this could actually create a deeper connection that you have with yourself.

    3. DR

      For sure. Uh, I mean, off the cuff, you know, when you feel anxious, don't squelch it. Don't get rid of the symptoms. Don't try to avoid it in your mind. Actually take the time to do a mental inventory.

    4. MR

      Okay.

    5. DR

      That could start with a brain dump, as my wife likes to call it. Just dump all the thoughts out, you know, unravel the yarn, you know, un- you know, take, take whatever's in your pockets and put it on the table, and then just let it sit there. That could take 10, 15 minutes.

    6. MR

      Okay, so you just-

    7. DR

      A writing exercise.

    8. MR

      ... dump everything in your brain on a piece of paper.

    9. DR

      Yes.

    10. MR

      Just everything that's in there?

    11. DR

      Yeah.

    12. MR

      And then what?

    13. DR

      And then pick out the anxiety saplings.

    14. MR

      Okay. What does that mean?

    15. DR

      There's gonna be one or two trees, so to speak, that are, you know, that have roots and they really go down, uh, to a certain level, sometimes really deep. Identify them from the, from the other stuff. Often people come in and they, I ask them, "What are you anxious about?" And (rattle) right? 30 minutes later, it's like, okay.I think there are th- two or three main themes here.

    16. MR

      Okay.

    17. DR

      You know, you could even put it into ChatGPT and say, like, "What are my two main themes?"

    18. MR

      You mean, like, do your brain dump-

    19. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    20. MR

      ... in ChatGPT and then go, "Tell me what the two biggest things that I'm anxious about"?

    21. DR

      Yeah, what are the two m- It's a language processor, right? So you can-

    22. MR

      Wow.

    23. DR

      ... theoretically just do that.

    24. MR

      Okay. You're gonna put yourself out of a job. Okay, keep going. No, never-

    25. DR

      (laughs)

    26. MR

      ... 'cause we all need you.

    27. DR

      I don't think so. I'm not worried about that.

    28. MR

      So once you've done that, you've picked out kind of the two big themes-

    29. DR

      Yeah.

    30. MR

      ... what do you do?

  11. 59:10 – 1:06:05

    The Science of Thriving with Anxiety

    1. DR

      me.

    2. MR

      Um, how has everything that you just shared with us helped you with your anxiety?

    3. DR

      Oh my God, so many ways. You know, I didn't always talk about it. When I got my job at, uh, Harvard Medical School, it's not the kind of thing that you speak about, right? Like, you're a professor and you stand up and you have your slides and you have your, you know, uh, you have your, uh, figures and your facts and your data, and you don't have your personal experience. Like, no, that would be, like, beneath (laughs) you know, the dignity of someone within the academy. And then like I said, over, over COVID, it really changed for me because aside from the fact that I was just dealing with my own anxiety, I actually saw in my data that the patients who were coming to our programs who had clinical anxiety and got treatment before March 2020 did better-

    4. MR

      Hmm.

    5. DR

      ... throughout the rest of the pandemic. They did not have an increase, a substantial increase in, in anxiety. And then I was like, "Hold on. I'm going about this wrong. I'm treating all anxiety like it's clinical. That's not true. David, you have anxiety too. Embrace it." I started to talk to my wife about it, have some real conversations about my fear of failure, what I really wanted.

    6. MR

      And she's like, "I've known this about you forever. You've just-"

    7. DR

      She did.

    8. MR

      "... been hiding it together, and you're annoying, and you take it out on the rest of us."

    9. DR

      She did something like... Well, she actually didn't say that. She didn't even say, "I told you so." She didn't have to.

    10. MR

      What did she say?

    11. DR

      (laughs) Yeah.She did say, "I know." But she held me through it. And it made us closer. It created more emotional depth in our connection.

    12. MR

      You know what's interesting about your approach? Is that so many people that talk about anxiety, and I know I'm certainly in this camp, because I've always focused on, "All right, let's get rid of this. All right, let's organize our entire lives so we don't feel this thing. So let's, you know, make sure we wake up and we do this." And all those things are very important because I certainly have identified the conditions or triggers or situations that can make me feel nervous, on edge, or anxious in an unnecessary way, like too much drinking-

    13. DR

      Yep.

    14. MR

      ... which then makes you wake up with anxiety, and why would you do that to yourself? Or looking at your phone first thing, which of course spikes your feelings of inferiority and puts you up in your head. So why would you do that thing? And so, you know, I- I- I think, though, in listening to you, there's a huge shift in the way that you've made me think about this, because you basically are saying to all of this, and you're probably gonna be like, "Yeah, you're right, dummy. That's exactly what I said-"

    15. DR

      (laughs)

    16. MR

      "... at the very beginning." But-

    17. DR

      Dummy.

    18. MR

      ... I think you need to hear it over and over to really get what you're saying, and I finally do, which is, look, zero to nine, just like you're always gonna have sadness in your life, but it doesn't always turn into depression-

    19. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    20. MR

      ... you're always gonna have on-edge-ness and nervousness-

    21. DR

      Yep.

    22. MR

      ... and uncertainty and doubt, which is the low-grade anxiety, or on the point scale, it's one to three, and opening your arms to it, rather than bracing for battle, knowing that it's coming and knowing that in those moments when it rises up in you or somebody else, instead of invalidating it, just go, "Oh, interesting. I'm nervous."

    23. DR

      I love what you said about bracing for battle. That's exactly what we do.

    24. MR

      Yeah. Yeah.

    25. DR

      We think of it as the enemy right away, and it's not.

    26. MR

      In fact, it's going to be there.

    27. DR

      Yeah.

    28. MR

      And so learning to... And I'm... One of the big takeaways that I have from our conversation is I'm not gonna call it anxiety.

    29. DR

      What are you gonna call it? What's the language we're using?

    30. MR

      Whatever it is. I'm gonna, I'm gonna call it nerves or excitement, or I'm gonna call it, uh, I'm feeling, uh, a little unsettled or feeling a little- a little uncertain, or I'm a little worried that, you know, I'm not gonna do well on this test, or, um, I'm a little upset about something.

Episode duration: 1:06:05

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