This Shocking Truth About Other People Will Change Your Life

Dr. Todd Rose 0:00 (instrumental music plays) I had a interesting upbringing, failed outta high school with a 0.9 GPA, on welfare, string of minimum wage jobs. I had like no self-esteem. Recognizing rock bottom, something had to change, um, and I happened upon a book.

Mel Robbins 0:15 Today's conversation about authenticity and the lies that you've been told is going to be life-changing. Dr. Todd Rose, expert researcher with a PhD from Harvard is here to teach you how to reconnect with your true self so you can live the life you deserve.

Dr. Todd Rose 0:30 Here's the important part about authenticity. It is a process. It's not a destination. There's no such thing as you could put all the work you want in right now, and you're like, "I'm done." It's- it's just not how it works. A flourishing life is one where you grow and change and discover. And once you realize how many people end up copying you, you'll see just how profoundly we're affected by what we believe other people believe and expect of us. The only truly bad decision is when you violate your own values and aspirations to conform to a group that didn't want that from you in the first place. Nobody wins. We're the first generation now, as a society, that has to deal with collective illusions at scale because of social media.

Mel Robbins 1:12 What is a collective illusion?

Dr. Todd Rose 1:14 Collective illusion is group think, but you're wrong about the group. Almost two-thirds of people are admitting that they are self-silencing right now. You cannot trust your brain to tell you what your group thinks anymore. It's about authenticity. Authenticity is the kryptonite of collective illusions. Probably the single most important study we've ever done that I think has the most implications for society and for individuals is...

Mel Robbins 1:42 Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. (instrumental music plays) Hey, it's Mel. Before we get into this incredible episode about living a more authentic life, my team was showing me, 57% of you who watch here on YouTube are not subscribed yet. Do me a quick favor, hit subscribe. That way you don't miss any of the episodes of the Mel Robbins Podcast that we post here on YouTube. And it also lets me know that you enjoy the guests and the content that we're bringing to you for free, because I wanna make sure you don't miss a thing. And boy, are you here for an incredible conversation today, so thanks for hitting subscribe. All right. You ready?

Mel Robbins 2:24 Good. Let's dive in. Please help me welcome Dr. Todd Rose to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

Dr. Todd Rose 2:29 Thanks for having me.

Mel Robbins 2:30 I am so excited to talk to you.

Dr. Todd Rose 2:32 Me too.

Mel Robbins 2:33 I'm really excited for so many reasons, and here's where I wanna start. How is my life gonna be different?

Dr. Todd Rose 2:39 I- if you understand and internalize the ideas we're gonna talk about today, you're gonna be more confident, you're gonna live more authentically, which is gonna lead to greater life satisfaction, happiness, but more importantly, your relationships are gonna be better and you're gonna be- have a deeper sense of belonging to the groups that matter most to you.

Mel Robbins 2:58 That's a big promise. I'm really excited for that. I actually believe you.

Dr. Todd Rose 3:02 (laughs) That's great.

Mel Robbins 3:03 No, I do believe you. I believe you, and what I'm excited about is I- I have this sense that we are living in a world where we all feel so divided from one another, and yet I- I- I hold firmly to this belief that the vast majority of us are way more similar and believe way more of the same things and want a lot of the same things than we actually are led to believe-

Dr. Todd Rose 3:25 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 3:25 ... in the world right now.

Dr. Todd Rose 3:26 And you're 100% correct. You know, what we do at my think tank Populace, we, uh, do what's called private opinion research. So we-

Mel Robbins 3:33 What is private opinion research?

Dr. Todd Rose 3:35 So it's... So polling, it's all public.

Mel Robbins 3:36 Oh.

Dr. Todd Rose 3:37 And it has all the social pressure, right?

Mel Robbins 3:39 Okay.

Dr. Todd Rose 3:39 You know there's a right answer, and so it turns out everybody's misrepresenting their views right now.

Mel Robbins 3:44 You feel like there's this big cost if you just don't go with the flow or you just don't agree or you just don't do what you think everybody else wants you to do-

Dr. Todd Rose 3:53 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 3:53 ... whether it's your family or at work or with your friend group. And so where I wanna start is, you write a lot in your best-selling book, Collective Illusions, about the fact that we are fundamentally wired to conform. What does that mean, Todd?

Dr. Todd Rose 4:08 Yeah, this is really important to bring up because when we talk about conformity, it- it kinda has like a negative connotation, right?

Mel Robbins 4:14 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 4:15 Like nobody wants to admit they conform to something.

Mel Robbins 4:17 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 4:18 But here's what's important.

Mel Robbins 4:19 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 4:19 We are hardwired to belong to groups.

Mel Robbins 4:22 Okay.

Dr. Todd Rose 4:22 Evolutionarily, this is how we survive, and that belonging can lead to conformity when we feel like we have to distort who we are to get that belonging. And if you don't mind, let me give you an example.

Mel Robbins 4:32 Please.

Dr. Todd Rose 4:33 I'm gonna tell you about what I think is my favorite study ever 'cause I can't believe he got funded to do it.

Mel Robbins 4:37 Okay.

Dr. Todd Rose 4:38 A colleague of mine in the Netherlands back in 2009 was a little skeptical about this conformity, like how deep it really went. And so he said, "W- what's the most subjective thing I could possibly imagine and see if conformity exists there?" So he decided it was who you think is good-looking, because look, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, right?

Mel Robbins 4:57 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 4:57 So... And there's no social pressure to be like, "You should think they're attractive because I do."

Mel Robbins 5:00 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 5:01 So he does this clever study. He puts people in fMRI scanners, and he does a version of hot or not.

Mel Robbins 5:08 Okay.

Dr. Todd Rose 5:09 R- really, like this is why I can't believe he got funded. He gets people... He shows them a couple hundred faces, and he asks them to rate them on their attractiveness from one to five, one, no thank you, five being yes please, right? Which, by the way, you do that kind of stuff on the street, you're a creep.

Mel Robbins 5:24 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 5:24 You do it in a scanner, you're a scientist. But you know, here's what's wild. So you're in that scanner and you see a face and you say, "Well, I think that's a five. Pretty attractive." What happens next is instantly you are shown another number which is supposed to represent the average score of everyone who's done this task before you.

Mel Robbins 5:43 Okay, so if I just ranked somebody a five-

Dr. Todd Rose 5:46 All of a sudden-

Mel Robbins 5:46 ... and then all of a sudden I'm shown, "Well, everybody else said they were a three."

Dr. Todd Rose 5:49 ... says it's a... Yes, exactly, right? Um, and then we're gonna watch what happens in your brain, and here's the thing, that group number was completely made up. There was no other group.

Mel Robbins 5:59 Okay.

Dr. Todd Rose 5:59 It's just you. And it was engineered so that m- half the time,You're told that you and your group are lockstep. You said, you said, "Five," the group said, "Five."

Mel Robbins 6:10 Okay.

Dr. Todd Rose 6:10 Right? And on some of the trials, it makes it wildly different. You said, "Five," the group said, "One."

Mel Robbins 6:17 Oh.

Dr. Todd Rose 6:17 Now here's what was crazy. On the trials where you and your group were aligned, it triggers what we call a reward signal in your brain. It's the same areas that hard drugs activate, and it's meant to tell you, "Whatever you're doing, keep doing it. This is amazing." Right? On the trials where you were like, "Five," and they said, "One," it triggers what's called an error signal in your brain. It's this cascading electrical signal that disrupts memory, attention, everything. It's meant to get you to stop because something you're doing is wrong and you might be in danger. So this is what happens to your brain. But that's not even the most interesting thing. The clever part was then at the end of the study, you're in the task, they come and say, "Oh, I'm so sorry. Uh, for some reason the equipment didn't record your responses."

Mel Robbins 7:04 Uh-huh.

Dr. Todd Rose 7:05 "Would you mind just quickly doing the task again? We're not gonna record your brain. Just quickly do the task again." They randomize the couple hundred pictures. They get you to rate them again. Lo and behold, most people moved their scores to align with the group and they didn't even know they did it.

Mel Robbins 7:22 Wow.

Dr. Todd Rose 7:22 You interview them after, they're like, "No, uh, that didn't affect me at all." So when I say it's hardwired, that's what I mean. Even as something as subjective as attractiveness, we just wanna be with our groups, and there's a lot that we'll do to maintain that group alignment.

Mel Robbins 7:36 I think it's fascinating that there is an error signal in your brain, that when you recognize that you're not conforming with group think or group look or group opinion, that automatically signals that you're on the outside and you need to stop. And I wanna give you another example to see if I'm tracking with this-

Dr. Todd Rose 7:55 Okay.

Mel Robbins 7:55 ... 'cause this just happened to me the other night. Like a lot of people, I am starting to really care more about my health.

Dr. Todd Rose 8:02 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 8:02 And one of the things I am cutting way back on is alcohol, and so I have this rule with myself that I'm just not gonna drink during the week.

Dr. Todd Rose 8:09 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 8:10 Now, fast-forward to last night. I'm out at a restaurant after work and one of my colleagues turns to me and says, "I could have a glass of wine. You wanna have a glass of wine?" "Okay."

Dr. Todd Rose 8:22 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 8:23 Can you explain, using the research, what just happened?

Dr. Todd Rose 8:27 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 8:27 Because here's the thing. I know I was gonna go in there and order a diet Coke or club soda or whatever. The second somebody asked me, "Hey, you wanna have something," I, it's (snaps fingers) like I make a decision.

Dr. Todd Rose 8:40 It was like reflexive.

Mel Robbins 8:40 Reflexive.

Dr. Todd Rose 8:40 Didn't even contemplate it. You just went with it. But-

Mel Robbins 8:42 Well, you know, uh, Todd, you wrote the book on this.

Dr. Todd Rose 8:45 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 8:45 So I think that's an example-

Dr. Todd Rose 8:46 So here's what happened. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 8:46 ... of why this is a really important thing to understand that is happening in your physiology and your neurology-

Dr. Todd Rose 8:53 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 8:53 ... and biology. So what's happening?

Dr. Todd Rose 8:54 And, and it's, it's coming back to that, that need to belong-

Mel Robbins 8:57 Okay.

Dr. Todd Rose 8:57 ... that we just talked about and the possibility of conformity there, because the norm in our society is when you go out socially, you drink, and people that don't drink aren't fun.

Mel Robbins 9:06 Hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 9:06 That's the stereotype. At the same time, you don't wanna go against the grain.

Mel Robbins 9:09 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 9:10 Right?

Mel Robbins 9:10 And, but do you know what's interesting? If I had said to my colleague, "You know, I'm just not drinking during the week right now. I don't think I'm gonna have any," you know what they probably woulda said?

Dr. Todd Rose 9:18 "I'm not drinking." Yep.

Mel Robbins 9:18 "I don't think I'm gonna have anything either."

Dr. Todd Rose 9:19 And that's the thing, is because you don't have the, the simple tips and tricks that you can use to not put yourself in that, "Well, I don't wanna come off as something I don't think I am." I think I'm fun. I think I'm social. I like to hang out with people." So something like, um, "You know what? I decided to take a month off," or, "You know what? I decided I'm not drinking on the, on weekdays." 'Cause then it doesn't say, "I'm not someone who drinks," right?

Mel Robbins 9:42 Right.

Dr. Todd Rose 9:42 It's just, "I've made that choice," and you'd be shocked how many people, like the person said, "Hey, I'm having a drink." Uh, we were at a table with a bunch of people and they were like, "Okay, fine," and then everyone sees two people do it and you're like, okay, there's a lot of pressure building as they-

Mel Robbins 9:57 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 9:57 ... come to you.

Mel Robbins 9:58 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 9:58 "And what will you have, sir?" (laughs) Like, "I'll have what they're having," you know?

Mel Robbins 10:01 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 10:02 Is just the ability to say something like, "You know what? I've decided to take a month off," or whatever, and no one's gonna say, "Something's wrong with you."

Mel Robbins 10:10 No.

Dr. Todd Rose 10:11 But what you'll do is you'll give them permission to do the same thing. And try it out. It's, it's amazing. And once you realize how many people end up copying you, you'll see just how profoundly we're affected by what we believe other people believe and expect of us.

Mel Robbins 10:25 Hmm. What is happening in that moment where you say, "Okay, I'll have what they're having"?

Dr. Todd Rose 10:31 Yep.

Mel Robbins 10:31 Like, what's happening in your brain?

Dr. Todd Rose 10:33 So, eh, remember we talked about that reward response?

Mel Robbins 10:35 Yep.

Dr. Todd Rose 10:36 So your brain has what's called an anticipated reward response. We know that when we're aligned with our group, it feels really good and we want that. And it's like, it's not quite like drug addiction, but it's in that ballpark.

Mel Robbins 10:47 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 10:47 Where once you're addicted to that drug, you're chasing the drug. Everything is about, "I want that feeling again."

Mel Robbins 10:53 Of belonging-

Dr. Todd Rose 10:53 Of belonging.

Mel Robbins 10:53 ... and we're talking about a deeper sense-

Dr. Todd Rose 10:57 It's-

Mel Robbins 10:57 ... that's wired in you.

Dr. Todd Rose 10:58 It's so deep and it's really important. And again, I wanna say, there's nothing wrong with wanting to belong.

Mel Robbins 11:03 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 11:03 You should want to belong, and you just have to understand when that need to belong tips into being controlled or manipulated, or bottom line, just leads you to do things that go against your own judgment. That's when you start making really bad decisions.

Mel Robbins 11:19 I'm really excited because I feel like this is one of those hidden levers that we don't realize is just operating in the background, and when you understand what you're dealing with, you have so much more power over it.

Dr. Todd Rose 11:33 That's right. After I was booked to be on the show, I actually dug in and, and read your book, Let Them, and I gotta tell you, there are so many parallels. When we get into all the tools, uh, later on, we'll be able to dig into that a little bit more, 'cause there's just so much overlap. I'm excited to dig in.

Mel Robbins 11:47 That's a huge compliment. We'll get into the tools later, but there's so much more about your research that I wanna make sure that we fully

Mel Robbins 11:54 get to and understand. One of the terms I'd love to have you talk a little bit about is this, uh, term collective illusions." It's the title of your best-selling book.

Dr. Todd Rose 12:02 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 12:03 Can you define, in very plain terms-

Dr. Todd Rose 12:05 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 12:05 ... what is a collective illusion?

Dr. Todd Rose 12:07 Collective illusion is group think, but you're wrong about the group.So let me unpack that just a little bit.

Mel Robbins 12:13 Okay.

Dr. Todd Rose 12:13 It formally is a phenomenon where most people in a group go along with something they don't privately agree with, simply because they incorrectly think that most other people agree with it.

Mel Robbins 12:25 Okay. Give me an example.

Dr. Todd Rose 12:26 So one of the most sticky collective illusions of all that's been around for multiple decades that we've tracked is this, uh, binge drinking in college.

Mel Robbins 12:35 Okay.

Dr. Todd Rose 12:35 So kids leave home, they go to a new place. They're like, "What does it mean to be a college student here?"

Mel Robbins 12:41 Yep.

Dr. Todd Rose 12:41 And they all think that most kids binge drink. And so they go to a party and they end up binge drinking when in reality, in private, we know as a matter of fact, most college kids are deeply skeptical about binge drinking. They know it's bad, but it's what they feel like they need to do to belong, to be a part, to be a college student.

Mel Robbins 13:00 Wow.

Dr. Todd Rose 13:01 And it turns out, as what we can talk about later, no amount of trying to tell them how bad drinking is works. In fact, it, it propagates the illusion. It's like-

Mel Robbins 13:10 Oh, that it's a problem.

Dr. Todd Rose 13:11 Yeah. It's like, "Wait."

Mel Robbins 13:11 And that everybody's doing it.

Dr. Todd Rose 13:12 Yeah. Why would all the administration put all these posters up telling us about the dangers of binge drinking if people weren't binge drinking? And so it ends up fueling the illusion.

Mel Robbins 13:21 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 13:21 And so what, you know, what you need is to have social proof where you have popular kids, other people just being like, "I don't, I don't binge drink. Why would I binge drink?" You, you can't lecture or try to persuade. You have to just reveal. But this happens all the time. Y- what's crazy is the phenomenon of collective illusions, we've known about for about 100 years in research.

Mel Robbins 13:42 Uh-huh.

Dr. Todd Rose 13:42 Um, it goes back further obviously, because The Emperor's New Clothes-

Mel Robbins 13:45 Oh, yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 13:46 ... r- is about collective illusions. Right? And-

Mel Robbins 13:48 Unpack that for the person that doesn't know what The En- Emperor's New Clothes is.

Dr. Todd Rose 13:50 So it's the, it's the story of the parable of like the emperor gets convinced by some huckster that they can spin the most beautiful clothing ever made, and it's so fine that it's invisible to everyone except for people who are worthy of their station in life. And the emperor's like, "Obviously, I'm worthy of it." So they make up this, it's y- and they fake like they're putting it on him and he's like, "Well, obviously I can see it, 'cause if I say I can't see it then I must not be worthy of being in charge of everything."

Mel Robbins 14:19 Yes. Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 14:21 And then everybody around him wants power and wants to be close to it, so they don't want to say, "You're buck naked."

Mel Robbins 14:27 (laughs)

Dr. Todd Rose 14:27 Right? And then the king's prancing around, going outside.

Mel Robbins 14:31 Naked.

Dr. Todd Rose 14:31 All the crowds line up, they're cheering 'cause no one wants to say it, and then one little kid is like, "Wh- why are you naked?" (laughs) And the innocence of the child to be just asked the obvious question-

Mel Robbins 14:42 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 14:43 ... and then the illusion shatters. So we, obviously this has been a problem in humanity for a very long time. What's interesting is up until just recently, um, the, the number of illusions, collective illusions that have harmed us as a society were pretty small-

Mel Robbins 15:00 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 15:00 ... but you put it into the social media age-

Mel Robbins 15:03 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 15:03 ... and it's just exploded to the point where now name anything that matters in life, it's a coin toss whether or not you're just wrong about what your community believes now.

Mel Robbins 15:13 Well, I also think like the experience we all have when you go online and it looks like every single person... I mean, I'm a 57-year-old woman, so it's largely menopause and interior design and health products.

Dr. Todd Rose 15:26 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 15:26 Like every single person is taking the exact same brand of supplement.

Dr. Todd Rose 15:29 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 15:29 Every single person is wearing this exact makeup line.

Dr. Todd Rose 15:32 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 15:32 Every single person is buying this particular couch, and I feel like, "Oh my god, I'm missing out. Like everybody has that thing."

Dr. Todd Rose 15:39 Yep.

Mel Robbins 15:39 And it does feel like it's gotten worse. And then my daughter was talking today about, "Well, I'm getting targeted for a cellulite foam roller that I'm about to buy because it looks like everybody that, you know, I follow online is using it." And so what are some of the collective illusions that you can point to in day-to-day life that, that we may not be aware that that's what that is?

Dr. Todd Rose 16:00 Well, well, let's hit on those, but when we think about h- how is it that we could end up being so wrong about the groups that matter so much to us? Like it's kind of weird that that would be true, right?

Mel Robbins 16:11 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 16:11 Let me show you like two things. One, how they happen in day-to-day life-

Mel Robbins 16:15 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 16:15 ... without anybody trying to manipulate you, and then let's talk about what social media does at the s- at the societal level.

Mel Robbins 16:21 Great.

Dr. Todd Rose 16:21 So... And I think people will have some similar experience, 'cause I can remember the first time that I actually experienced a collective illusion. (clears throat)

Mel Robbins 16:29 When was that?

Dr. Todd Rose 16:30 Back... So growing up, I had... I was kind of a problematic child, which I'm sure we can talk about.

Mel Robbins 16:34 (laughs)

Dr. Todd Rose 16:34 Um, and didn't really fit in except for my grandmother, who was like my second mom.

Mel Robbins 16:41 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 16:41 Whenever I was with her, I could just be myself and I was good enough.

Mel Robbins 16:45 Mm.

Dr. Todd Rose 16:46 And she decided... I mean, they were very, very poor. She had me come and sleep over as a kid once a month. Just me. Literally no other grandkids got this. And when, when I was there, she'd make a bologna sandwich in her little hou- little tiny kitchenette, we'd play Yahtzee together, and we'd just talk, and I could share anything with her, stuff I couldn't tell my parents, whatever. It was like literally amazing. It was this oasis for me in a really-

Mel Robbins 17:11 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 17:11 ... tough environment. We've been sleeping over, sleeping over, sleeping over. Then one time, she says, "Hey, good news. Um, I'm taking you to Sizzler, like your grandpa and I," this steakhouse-

Mel Robbins 17:23 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 17:23 ... this all-you-can-eat steakhouse. And I was like, "I don't..." I was like, "I don't really want to go to... I just... It's noisy there. Like I just want to be here." But I, I knew it meant a lot to them-

Mel Robbins 17:33 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 17:33 ... so I went with it, and that's what we started doing instead of just playing Yahtzee. We'd go to Sizzler, and that went on for six years. Okay. So in 2015, we found out she was dying, and I went back to Utah where I w- was born to say goodbye to her. And I was preparing as like my last conversation I'm ever gonna have with this woman that meant the world to me. And I'm holding her hand and I'm... we're talking about a lot of things and I thought, "You know, I want to just let her know how transformative those sleepovers were to me." And I said, "You know grandma, I just want to tell you all those times sleeping over..." She's like barely can get a word out and she says... She touches my arm, she says, "I know. I know what mattered most to you. It was going to Sizzler."

Mel Robbins 18:15 (laughs)

Dr. Todd Rose 18:17 ... and I was like, "Wait, what?" Like, and I, I didn't have the heart to be like, uh, I didn't like that at all, right? But, but she said, uh, "Just to be honest, um, your grandpa and I didn't really like going to Sizzler, but we knew it meant a lot to you." (laughs) So I'm sitting there thinking, "Wait. We all ended up going to Sizzler once a month for six years because we all thought we all wanted to go to Sizzler when nobody actually did." Again, I didn't have the heart to tell her on her deathbed- (laughs)

Mel Robbins 18:44 (laughs)

Dr. Todd Rose 18:44 ... that, that she could have had me for a bologna sandwich, but that kind of like, nobody was manipulating anyone. We care about each other. We want each other to be happy, and we can misread each other.

Mel Robbins 18:54 Mm.

Dr. Todd Rose 18:55 And then just like the, the drink example-

Mel Robbins 18:57 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 18:57 ... nobody wants to question it, and we just keep doing it.

Mel Robbins 19:00 Well, you're making my wheels spin now where I'm sitting here thinking, "What are we all continuing to do as a family-

Dr. Todd Rose 19:08 Yes. I-

Mel Robbins 19:09 ... that we all think we're supposed to be doing?" Like, it could even be as, something as simple as we've always had the same meal for a certain holiday. Nobody actually likes it.

Dr. Todd Rose 19:20 (laughs) Yeah.

Mel Robbins 19:20 Why are we not just doing something-

Dr. Todd Rose 19:22 I-

Mel Robbins 19:22 ... different and talking about it?

Dr. Todd Rose 19:24 ... I, I promise you if... Do me one favor is just go to your family or your significant other and think about the things you do on a routine basis.

Mel Robbins 19:34 Okay, so give us some examples.

Dr. Todd Rose 19:35 Um, well, I have, uh, friends that have every Friday, we have salmon night-

Mel Robbins 19:40 Yep.

Dr. Todd Rose 19:40 ... and we watch a movie. Maybe everybody wants to do that. It could be true. It's these basic day-to-day things, and just, just say, "Honestly, d- do we still like doing this?" You know what I mean? And just ask. It, you will be shocked at how many of these, someone's going, "Well, actually, if you give me the permission to be honest, like, actually, maybe we could shake that up a bit." So if illusions can happen amongst, like, tightly knit relationships-

Mel Robbins 20:07 Hm.

Dr. Todd Rose 20:07 ... it's not surprising that they can happen in a country of 300 million people-

Mel Robbins 20:11 Hm.

Dr. Todd Rose 20:12 ... at a societal level. Think about you have all these identities, and you're tied to these groups that matter to you, but they consist of people you're probably never gonna meet.

Mel Robbins 20:21 Hm.

Dr. Todd Rose 20:21 And you have to guess, like, it, like, what does that group believe? You know what I mean? So I can know what it is I'm trying to align to.

Mel Robbins 20:29 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 20:29 And here's the thing about your brain that is just crazy is how your brain estimates what your group believes 'cause you'd imagine given how important it is with conformity and belonging-

Mel Robbins 20:40 Right.

Dr. Todd Rose 20:40 ... that you'd have some sophisticated way (laughs) that your brain calculates, like, "On average, this is what my group believes." No. There's a shortcut your brain takes. No kidding. Your brain assumes the loudest voices-

Mel Robbins 20:53 (laughs)

Dr. Todd Rose 20:53 ... repeated the most are the majority.

Mel Robbins 20:56 The loudest voices-

Dr. Todd Rose 20:58 Repeated the most-

Mel Robbins 20:59 ... repeated the most are the majority.

Dr. Todd Rose 21:01 ... are the majority. Even when you know it's not true. Even intellectually, you know, oh, this is just Mel telling me this over and over again.

Mel Robbins 21:07 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 21:07 That's... Your brain is keeping score this way. So it must have worked. You evolved to have this shortcut, but you put that into a social media age.

Mel Robbins 21:17 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 21:17 Okay? So here's a stat that blows my mind.

Mel Robbins 21:19 Okay.

Dr. Todd Rose 21:19 If you take what was Twitter, which is now X, research has shown that 80% of all the content on that platform is generated by only 10% of the users.

Mel Robbins 21:33 80% of the content you're reading on X is generated by 10%.

Dr. Todd Rose 21:36 By 10%, and here's the trick. Pew Research has found that that 10% isn't remotely representative of the general public. They are extreme on almost every social issue, but you can see the problem here. Let's say 10% of people hold some view, but you think it's 80%.

Mel Robbins 21:56 I think that's what's happened.

Dr. Todd Rose 21:57 Uh-huh. That error signal kicks in. Unless you're willing to override that and go against what you think your group believes, what do you do? You end up self-silencing. You say nothing. Or worse, you start saying what you think people want to hear so you can be part of the group, and when enough people self-silence, the only people left are the people on the fringes.

Mel Robbins 22:21 The 10%-

Dr. Todd Rose 22:22 Uh-huh.

Mel Robbins 22:22 ... that are the loudest repeating everything that we then say, say, "Oh, well-"

Dr. Todd Rose 22:26 This is what we believe.

Mel Robbins 22:27 ... "everybody that's part of that party must believe that."

Dr. Todd Rose 22:29 Clearly believe.

Mel Robbins 22:30 "Everybody that follows that person must believe that."

Dr. Todd Rose 22:33 Correct. So there's-

Mel Robbins 22:33 And what you're basically saying is the research is very conclusive. That's absolutely not-

Dr. Todd Rose 22:38 Not true.

Mel Robbins 22:39 ... true. The loudest-

Dr. Todd Rose 22:39 And-

Mel Robbins 22:39 ... voices don't represent the majority.

Dr. Todd Rose 22:40 They, they don't. In fact, they almost never do. Well, they wouldn't have to be so loud, right? (laughs) If you knew everybody agreed with you, you don't have to say much. (laughs) So, but you can see how this is where then you get these societal-level collective illusions 'cause we're self-silencing. And our data on this is... We have more private opinion data on the American public than any organization, I'm quite certain of. Almost two-thirds of people are admitting that they are self-silencing right now. That means withholding things that matter to them because they think other people disagree. Like, this is a very dangerous place to be when we can't even be honest with each other. And so the problem with that is as these illusions form... Okay? So now I'm thinking, "Wow, most people... Like, what happened? What happened to society? Like, am I crazy or did everybody else seem to go crazy?" And it's like you start feeling alienated from your group, isolated, a little bit resentful that you're having to self-silence, and we see this in the data. You start losing trust in other people, and life gets much worse for you, but it also gets much worse for the rest of us because, as a result, we end up with this false polarization, right? We feel like we're completely divided, and it becomes self-fulfilling.

Mel Robbins 23:55 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 23:56 We lose trust in each other, and we become resentful.

Mel Robbins 23:59 Now, I wanna make sure that I'm unpacking this 'cause I, I think this is so important what you're saying, and it is so important that you really take in, and I'm gonna now call you Dr. Todd-

Dr. Todd Rose 24:11 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 24:11 ... Rose, what he is saying about the data because this is something that I've held in my heart that has made me very sad and has also made me pull back and feel discouraged.... I've bought into the collective illusion of what the loudest voices, you're saying it's the 10%, the fringe-

Dr. Todd Rose 24:31 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 24:31 ... are saying, and I have presumed that the majority of people believe in this.

Dr. Todd Rose 24:38 We're the first generation now, as a society, that has to deal with collective illusions at scale because of social media.

Mel Robbins 24:44 Mm.

Dr. Todd Rose 24:45 Like, it just, you cannot trust your brain to tell you what your group thinks anymore. You can't, and that's a hard thing to overcome. And when you put it into social media environment, even if no, there's no bad actors, just the dynamics of that, the loudest voices will guarantee that you're gonna be wrong-

Mel Robbins 25:01 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 25:01 ... the longer you spend time on there.

Mel Robbins 25:03 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 25:03 But it gets even worse. So my organization has partnered with other organizations. We've been studying the way in which foreign entities that are trying to disrupt us have built bot armies. Uh, Russia, China-

Mel Robbins 25:18 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 25:18 ... they have millions of bots, some of them AI-enabled now, and w- we often think when, it's propaganda manipulation, that they're just spreading disinformation. It's not what they do at all.

Mel Robbins 25:28 What do they do?

Dr. Todd Rose 25:29 The new form of propaganda is the ability to manufacture a collective illusion, to convince-

Mel Robbins 25:34 So meaning, like, literally, like-

Dr. Todd Rose 25:36 ... to convince you.

Mel Robbins 25:36 ... put you in the matrix-

Dr. Todd Rose 25:37 Yes.

Mel Robbins 25:37 ... of what they want you to believe by just peppering-

Dr. Todd Rose 25:38 Intentionally targeting, um, especially Gen Z, to convince them that their communities believe things they don't. And that need to belong kicks in. I mean, we're talking about... So we know on social media writ large that roughly one-fourth of all the interactions you ever have are with bots, and you don't know it.

Mel Robbins 25:59 Say that again.

Dr. Todd Rose 26:00 One-fourth, and that's conservative. One-fourth of all your interactions on social media are with bots, and you don't know it. And with AI-enabled bots, you wouldn't be able to tell. They are so sophisticated. So you just have to be careful to know, if you just get to that point and understand this concept of a collective illusion, right?

Mel Robbins 26:19 Right.

Dr. Todd Rose 26:19 Groupthink, but you're wrong about the group. So why would you conform? Like, if you conform to something your group doesn't want, you're destroying the group you actually care about.

Mel Robbins 26:28 So let me just unpack this because I, I, I really do think this is critical, that a quarter of the content that you interact with online are bots, and that you believe that's conservative-

Dr. Todd Rose 26:40 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 26:41 ... that the bots are programmed to convince you to believe something that the majority of people do not agree with.

Dr. Todd Rose 26:50 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 26:51 And I also will extrapolate that that is why it is more important than ever that you stop conforming, and you actually take a step back, and you deeply connect with what's important to you, and that you find the courage to start speaking up, because everybody else is waiting for somebody else to go first. And I believe, regardless of how you voted, regardless of what country you live in, there is this deep weariness within families, within communities, within friend groups to even talk about anything, because we convince ourselves that they believe what the bots and the 10% loudest voices believe, and they don't... And you're here to tell us that they don't believe that at all.

Dr. Todd Rose 27:36 They, they absolutely do not. I mean, we have the data. You can download all of the r- We've studied everything from the kinda lives people wanna live, the kinda country they wanna live in, what they want from education, healthcare, criminal justice. It is shocking. When you get beyond the social pressure and the distortion, we are unbelievably similar in our aspirations, in our fears, in our desires, but we just don't believe it's true, and so we act accordingly. And to your point, when, when we get weary, and we just go silent, it's understandable, but then it becomes part of the illusion, right?

Mel Robbins 28:11 That's true because nobody's speaking up.

Dr. Todd Rose 28:11 'Cause nobody's speaking up, to the people that matter most to us.

Mel Robbins 28:14 Some of the fringe reach, like-

Dr. Todd Rose 28:15 Right.

Mel Robbins 28:15 ... yelling at each other.

Dr. Todd Rose 28:16 Right. And so we all become caricatures of some fringe view that nobody really holds. And so one of the things that I've been the most proud of is, and the reason I, why, why I wanted to write this book is, you know, you give people a concept, and people go, "Oh, wow, I didn't realize this." And then it opens up the ability to start talking about, "Well, wait a minute. Like, here's some of the things I think..." You know, it's, it's a safe way to have the conversation. But to your-

Mel Robbins 28:41 Well, just even hearing that your data conclusively shows that the majority of people literally agree on the things that they care about and want outta life-

Dr. Todd Rose 28:53 Yes.

Mel Robbins 28:53 ... like, it makes me go, "Really?" 'Cause I've been in a duck and cover mode, like, "When is this madness gonna end?"

Dr. Todd Rose 28:58 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 28:58 "When are we gonna reconnect with what matters?" Like, I kinda know that everybody agrees, but why isn't anybody... Why is there not a reasonable person, like... Oh, 'cause I know a reasonable person doesn't wanna stand up and get caught in this crossfire.

Dr. Todd Rose 29:08 Yep.

Mel Robbins 29:08 That's why we're all like, "Okay, when is somebody normal gonna pop up and, and show us the, the way?" But you're here to say, "We all have the ability to do this."

Dr. Todd Rose 29:17 We do. And it, it's it, it's only, only we can do this, because, like, if you think about it, there are people who profit from the illusions.

Mel Robbins 29:24 Correct.

Dr. Todd Rose 29:24 Right? And especially in a, in a binary political system-

Mel Robbins 29:27 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 29:27 ... uh, there's a lot of benefit to getting people to be more extreme-

Mel Robbins 29:32 Right.

Dr. Todd Rose 29:32 ... and locked into an identity where you, you'll f- you'll fall on that sword because-

Mel Robbins 29:37 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 29:37 ... this is, these are my people.

Mel Robbins 29:38 Can, can you share the data on what people actually agree on and care about-

Dr. Todd Rose 29:43 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 29:43 ... so that as you're listening and watching... Like, this is an incredible episode to send to family members and to send to friends that you feel like you can't talk to anymore, because you believe the collective illusion-

Dr. Todd Rose 29:57 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 29:57 ... that they somehow don't agree with you on core things. So what does this data say about what people actually-

Dr. Todd Rose 30:04 For sure.

Mel Robbins 30:04 ... care about?

Dr. Todd Rose 30:04 So let's, let's take a few things, 'cause we can go all day on this, which is pretty incredible. So we studied the American Aspirations Index. So this was a US-focused one.

Mel Robbins 30:13 Okay.

Dr. Todd Rose 30:14 And we studied, what do you want for the country? And there were dozens and dozens and dozens of possibilities. And what was shocking to me, we found that-... in the top 10 aspirations for the country, we agreed on eight out of the 10. Individual rights-

Mel Robbins 30:30 Yep.

Dr. Todd Rose 30:31 ... uh, we still believe that... in free speech, uh, treating each other with respect, uh, having everyone have high-quality healthcare. Eh, so there's a basic, uh, kinda life we wanna live together, and we know that we owe each other certain things to make that life possible. And it turns out, we agree on that. Now, as you said earlier, back in the day, w- we might disagree on how we do it, right? Do you have Medicare for all? Do you have more like RomneyCare we'd had in Massachusetts? You know, there are different ways that we can debate how to get it done, but it turns out the ultimate aims, we're shockingly similar on.

Mel Robbins 31:07 Well, I find it extraordinarily encouraging to hear that underneath all the noise of the loudest voices and the division and the bots, that human beings agree on eight out of the 10 things that are the most important things.

Dr. Todd Rose 31:24 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 31:24 What did you find about our personal lives? Like, how do people want to live-

Dr. Todd Rose 31:28 This is-

Mel Robbins 31:29 ... and how do we... Like, break us... T- tell me the list on what we agree on-

Dr. Todd Rose 31:33 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 31:33 ... and then let's unpack that.

Dr. Todd Rose 31:36 So probably the single most important study we've ever done that I think has the most implications for society and for individuals is... it's called The Success Index.

Mel Robbins 31:48 The Success Index, okay.

Dr. Todd Rose 31:49 And we wanted to know what do you mean by a successful life for you? What kinda life do you wanna live? Nothing's more important than you feeling like you're living the kinda life that you wanna live even if no one else wants to live it, right? That's literally the American dream. That's literally, like, the key to flourishing. It's the key to social trust. It's the key to everything. Okay. So we (laughs) did this, I mean, massive private opinion study with the same kinda trade-offs, right? Because you can't have everything in life.

Mel Robbins 32:18 Right.

Dr. Todd Rose 32:19 We had 61 possible attributes for a good life.

Mel Robbins 32:23 Okay. So you can pick between 61.

Dr. Todd Rose 32:24 Everything from... everything from having a family to being the richest person you know and everything in-

Mel Robbins 32:28 Yep.

Dr. Todd Rose 32:28 ... between, okay? And then you force the trade-offs in this way that gives you anonymity and plausible-

Mel Robbins 32:33 So you have to rank what you want?

Dr. Todd Rose 32:34 ... ident- it, it, it's, it's amazing. We can go into details on how they do it. There's some stuff on our site that'll show you.

Mel Robbins 32:38 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 32:39 It's really cool, but you can't, you can't game it. It's so good at getting, uh, private views.

Mel Robbins 32:44 Okay.

Dr. Todd Rose 32:45 Okay. So let's talk about what most people see in terms of their top priorities for a good life. It, it warms my heart. The number one priority for a successful life is, I wanna do work that has a positive impact on other people. They wanna contribute, okay? In that top 10, across all demographics, were things to do with relationships, family, character, self-improvement, and growth, okay? I- in fact, one of the really crazy ones that I think is important is, um, across every demographic in the top 10 was, "I wanna be more engaged in my community."

Mel Robbins 33:25 Hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 33:26 Now, here's what's interesting. We also measure how well you're achieving on these different things. Involved in your community was the lowest achieved of all top 10 priorities for your life. In fact, more people reported being debt-free than involved in their community the level they want to. I mean-

Mel Robbins 33:45 What does that tell you as a researcher?

Dr. Todd Rose 33:47 It tells me that, uh, well, we've lost that civic layer of society that gave us the way to engage and contribute, and they don't know how to do it.

Mel Robbins 33:55 Hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 33:55 And by the way, uh-

Mel Robbins 33:56 And then if you also assume-

Dr. Todd Rose 33:57 So that's where we're getting-

Mel Robbins 33:58 ... that nobody agrees-

Dr. Todd Rose 33:59 So-

Mel Robbins 33:59 ... with you and everybody, like-

Dr. Todd Rose 34:01 So this is wh- when we ask, "So what do you think most people see as a suc- successful life?" Same trade-offs things. It flips entirely. They think everyone is obsessed with status, wealth, getting into the most prestigious school. The top thing that people think everyone else cares about is being famous.

Mel Robbins 34:21 Really?

Dr. Todd Rose 34:22 Okay. In private, it's dead last. Now let me unpack why that's really matters, okay? Because there's, uh, an important thing about collective illusions, which is this. This generation's illusions tend to become next generation's private opinion if you don't do something.

Mel Robbins 34:39 Say that again.

Dr. Todd Rose 34:40 This generation's collective illusions tend to become next generation's private opinion. Let's use the example of fame, because young kids don't know that we're lying. (laughs) So young kids look to culture, look to media, like, look to each other, wha- what do we believe? What do we aspire to? So my colleagues at UCLA have tracked the ef- effects of culture and media on middle school kids for a very long time. Up until a few years ago, the, the top thing that emerged every year had to do with character. Think like Mister Rogers kinda stuff, right?

Mel Robbins 35:15 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 35:15 Wonderful. A few years ago, it switched to, "I want to be famous," and it hasn't changed back. I remember they interviewed one kid in the study, and he said, "I wanna have a million followers." They said, "Okay, uh, for what?" And he said, "Doesn't matter." (laughs) So it's bad enough when these illusions lead our young kids to pursue dead ends that we know. We know that's not how you live a good life. That's bad enough. But when it starts to, to become about the fundamental assumptions of democracy, of free society, of our shared humanity, you can see the real danger to us individually and collectively.

Mel Robbins 35:53 So if this generation's collective illusion is that the number one aspiration in life is being famous because they have bought into the lie that that's what everybody else prioritizes and values, that's what everybody else thinks matters, how does that impact the next generation when it comes-

Dr. Todd Rose 36:16 So-

Mel Robbins 36:16 ... to their private opinion?

Dr. Todd Rose 36:18 So because, again, they don't know it's a lie-

Mel Robbins 36:20 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 36:21 ... and they're looking to society to tell them initially what to value-

Mel Robbins 36:25 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 36:25 ... right? We're social species.

Mel Robbins 36:26 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 36:27 We internalize the norms, the aspirations, w- what does it mean to succeed.... um, and they will internalize that as, "Well, that's what I believe." I mean, th- they genuinely believe it. They're not lying. The kids aren't lying. They'll learn the hard way again, just like we all have, that that's a really bad way to think about living a good life, but that's really sad. I mean, that it has to come to that. Um, and the, at the end of the day, like, what's so important about this, and we can talk about why, when it comes to collective illusions, it's about individuals. It's about authenticity. Authenticity is the kryptonite of collective illusions. Silence is never the answer, authenticity always is.

Mel Robbins 37:06 So, is the reason why so many people are miserable as they're chasing success is because they're chasing a version of success-

Dr. Todd Rose 37:15 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 37:15 ... that they believe other people have?

Dr. Todd Rose 37:17 Yeah. And let- let's be fair f- to all of us. We wanna be successful on our own terms, and we also would love to be recognized for that.

Mel Robbins 37:25 But for what?

Dr. Todd Rose 37:26 So, if I think being successful is finding fulfillment and doing something, like, literally most people's view of success is getting meaning in their life by contributing to the lives of other people.

Mel Robbins 37:36 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 37:36 That's literally a, if- if I could sum it up, right?

Mel Robbins 37:38 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 37:39 Well, I wanna do that, but I would also love that you recognize that I do that and it's valuable. Like, nothing wrong with wanting society to recognize my accomplishments, my aspirations, and validate them.

Mel Robbins 37:50 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 37:51 The slippery slope is, I can, without thinking, just like with your drinking example, where you're like-

Mel Robbins 37:56 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 37:56 ... "I didn't even think about it," and suddenly I'm having a glass of wine.

Mel Robbins 37:58 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 37:59 Without thinking about it, we can easily slip into wanting their affirmation first, and corrupting what we choose to do as a result. And I'll give you th- why this matters. In our research, we linked achievement on that success index-

Mel Robbins 38:15 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 38:16 ... to life satisfaction, like how- how happy you are with your life. Here's what was amazing. To the extent that you were achieving on your private priorities-

Mel Robbins 38:24 And just to make sure I'm tracking with you, people publicly say, "I want the fame, I want the house, I want the car, I want the followers."

Dr. Todd Rose 38:32 They want the fancy car, the biggest house.

Mel Robbins 38:34 But what secretly matters to you is your family, your friendships-

Dr. Todd Rose 38:38 My community.

Mel Robbins 38:39 ... my community.

Dr. Todd Rose 38:40 Being a good person. If you achieve on those, it directly increases life satisfaction. In fact, just-

Mel Robbins 38:46 If you directly achieve on the things-

Dr. Todd Rose 38:48 On yours.

Mel Robbins 38:48 ... that are private.

Dr. Todd Rose 38:49 Yes.

Mel Robbins 38:49 Yes. Okay.

Dr. Todd Rose 38:49 And here's the, here's the thing. It- it was such a big effect, 'cause people are only achieving about 50% of their own priorities right now. If you bump that up by just 20 points, which is actually not hard when what we care about is being a good (laughs) person, being involved in your community, anyone can do that, right?

Mel Robbins 39:04 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 39:05 It led to an increase in life satisfaction that was the same as doubling your salary.

Mel Robbins 39:11 Wow.

Dr. Todd Rose 39:11 Okay. So, it's a big deal. But now flip it around. No amount of achievement on what you think other people value increases life satisfaction at all. It is an absolute dead end. I mean, so, this is what I say, this sort of personal success, I think, is the most important illusion we've ever found, because it completely corrupts your own life, it leads to misery, right? And it's the one illusion that only you can solve. You have the power right now to solve that one, right? You don't need anyone's permission t- to start making different choices about the life you live.

Mel Robbins 39:48 To get honest with yourself about what privately matters, and to stop obsessing about what you think everybody else thinks, 'cause you're here to tell us, all of that is an illusion. What you think other people think isn't even what they privately believe.

Dr. Todd Rose 40:05 Right. The group doesn't even believe the thing that you're about to conform to, and so when you do it, and enough of us do it, we literally destroy the very group that we care about.

Mel Robbins 40:15 And when you listen, and that's why I love this conversation, you're being reminded of the things that privately you know deep down are true, and that you can, from this moment forward, start living your life with the truth because the data shows it.

Dr. Todd Rose 40:33 Ask yourself, how would you behave if you knew for sure that this thing was an illusion? You know what I mean? If you knew for sure your group didn't believe the thing that this fringe is just shouting at you?

Mel Robbins 40:44 Well, you'd probably be talking to your friends more. You'd probably be-

Dr. Todd Rose 40:47 100%.

Mel Robbins 40:47 ... involved in your community.

Dr. Todd Rose 40:49 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 40:49 You'd probably wear what you wanna wear.

Dr. Todd Rose 40:51 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 40:51 You'd probably speak up more. You know? 'Cause what happens when you recognize so much of the noise is noise, and 80% of us, based on the eight out of 10 data-

Dr. Todd Rose 41:03 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 41:03 ... that you have been crunching, really want the same things.

Dr. Todd Rose 41:07 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 41:07 We may disagree a little bit on-

Dr. Todd Rose 41:09 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 41:09 ... how to achieve it, but we want the same things, and the- the- the kryptonite, you said, to exploding all of this noise is you personally starting to make decisions day by day, conversation by conversation, moment by moment, that really align with those deeper things-

Dr. Todd Rose 41:31 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 41:32 ... that you want for yourself.

Dr. Todd Rose 41:33 Because this- this how we live our lives and the illusion that's, th- like, darkening our doorstep here-

Mel Robbins 41:37 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 41:38 ... because if you look at the research on what happens when we self-silence, so let's look at the downside of it, and then look at the upside of being authentic. The downside of self-silencing is shocking, okay? So, research that followed longitudinally people who were self-silencing and people who weren't. Self-silencers actually have dramatically higher rates of cardiovascular disease. Strokes, high cholesterol, everything. And there's a mechanism for it which is basically when you're self-silencing or- or misrepresenting your views, you get this cognitive dissonance, you know, this kind of like, "I know I'm not being honest."

Mel Robbins 42:16 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 42:16 Cortisol levels elevate and they stay elevated. And cortisol is good in the short term when you're under threat, and absolutely toxic, breaks down blood vessels, everything. Um, the study I'm referring to actually tracked women who have much higher rates of self-silencing, and just found when you look at all the gaps in mental health issues, there's usually a gender gap.

Mel Robbins 42:37 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 42:38 Right? Eating disorders, depression, anxiety.

Mel Robbins 42:40 Autoimmune disorders also.

Dr. Todd Rose 42:41 Autoimmune disorders. When you control for rates of self-silencing, the gender gap disappears.This is a big deal. This is a big deal for your physical health.

Mel Robbins 42:51 What does that mean to the person listening who knows that you're the person that stays silent in meetings, you're the person that doesn't rock the boat, and so you're in conflict-

Dr. Todd Rose 43:03 Mm-hmm. With yourself.

Mel Robbins 43:04 ... with your privately held beliefs with yourself?

Dr. Todd Rose 43:07 Yeah. It's-

Mel Robbins 43:07 And you're living like that, and what you're saying is based on the research, women do this more than men.

Dr. Todd Rose 43:12 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 43:13 And there's lots of reasons why, but in the data, when you look at people who are self-silencers, it has massively negative health outcomes. But when you remove the gender piece?

Dr. Todd Rose 43:26 When you remove the, whose self is, is the self-silencing, the effect of that.

Mel Robbins 43:30 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 43:30 It turns out there isn't a gender gap in those things. It's about self-silencing. Like, that's not everything, right? There's lots of reasons why we can end up with anxiety, but I think w- the reason I say this is that when we self-silence, I think we tend to think that it's sort of benign, right? "It's not much of a cost. Yeah, I don't, I don't feel so good, but I, I, look, I, I get to fit in." What I wanna show you is, you know, there is a profound cost to your physical health, right? Um, there is a cost to your psychological health. I mean, it, self-silencing, again, is correlated with anxiety, depression, eating disorders, all these things. Um, and there is a cost to humanity, right? In the false polarization, the distrust, the resentment that is pervasive in society today, and democracies do not survive this kind of threat. And I, I will say one thing, which is, you know, one of my favorite, uh, psychologists, the, the humanist Carl Rogers, said all of problems in society, from nations against nations, groups against groups, boil down to individuals at war with themselves.

Mel Robbins 44:40 Hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 44:41 When we start to misrepresent our views, when we self-silence to fit in, we're at war with ourselves.

Mel Robbins 44:49 You're creating this war internally because you're forcing yourself to stay silent on something-

Dr. Todd Rose 44:55 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 44:55 ... you don't agree with.

Dr. Todd Rose 44:55 That's right. So you're internalizing all the downside and you don't recognize it. And what's funny is we don't connect those dots.

Mel Robbins 45:02 Mm-mm.

Dr. Todd Rose 45:02 We start seeing our health start to fail. We see our, our mental health start to deteriorate, and we look for all these reasons. I don't think it's coincidental. I don't think it's the only cause, but I don't think it's coincidental that our youngest generation that was literally born online has this skyrocketing anxiety and mental health challenges that are real, and they're coming from a number of places.

Mel Robbins 45:22 Right.

Dr. Todd Rose 45:22 But for sure-

Mel Robbins 45:23 One we control.

Dr. Todd Rose 45:24 ... this, because we know in our data that Gen Z is self-silencing at the highest rate of any demographic that we've ever studied.

Mel Robbins 45:32 Why is that?

Dr. Todd Rose 45:32 Because they're online more than anybody else.

Mel Robbins 45:35 And how does being online all the time reinforce this self-silencing?

Dr. Todd Rose 45:41 Because when I'm in person, I get a lot more cues. First of all, I know they're real people. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 45:45 Mm.

Dr. Todd Rose 45:45 Like, I know a lot of them. When I'm online, I'm going f- I, I'm getting inundated with likes, with stuff pushed to me repeatedly, and like, and m- remember your brain's going, "Loudest voices repeated the most are the majority." And so on almost everything, especially when you're in those formative years, "What do I believe? Who am I? What do I aspire to?" They're being shaped i- by illusions in ways that none of us have ever really experienced, those of us that at least remember a time when there wasn't, uh, social media. And again, I'm not saying social media is bad. It's got a lot of upside, but like any technology, there's always a downside. And if you don't recognize the downside, you're gonna live it.

Mel Robbins 46:28 Um, I think as a parent, my heart just collapsed, because I see that paralysis in self-expression, this, like, fear that it's gonna be cringey, fear that somebody's gonna judge it, fear that, you know, you're not going to get the likes that you want, which is all driven by conformity, which then has you, A, silence yourself, and then B, now operate online in a way that you think gets people to like you because we're wired for conformity.

Dr. Todd Rose 47:01 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 47:02 So, how do you break this, given that we're wired for conformity and-

Dr. Todd Rose 47:07 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 47:07 ... we understand how self-silence, 'cause I, self-silence at work, you don't talk in meetings. Self-silence at works, you don't, uh, raise problems. You don't talk about-

Dr. Todd Rose 47:16 That's right.

Mel Robbins 47:16 ... the mistakes that happened and how you solved them. Self-silence, you start to operate the way everybody else does because you think that's the way you get ahead.

Dr. Todd Rose 47:23 That's right. And by the way, when everyone starts doing that and starts conforming, groups lose their vitality.

Mel Robbins 47:28 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 47:29 Groups lose their purpose, right? The purpose of a group is not blind conformity. It's that we're better together.

Mel Robbins 47:35 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 47:35 It's that we can cooperate. It's that we can exchange ideas, right? That I can learn from you and be like, "Maybe I'm wrong." But that loses its function-

Mel Robbins 47:45 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 47:45 ... and it just becomes this blind tribalism where we're just like, "Now who's our enemy? Okay, we're good because they're losing." It's just, it's, it's pretty horrific. The, the trick is, is if you care about living a good life, authenticity is everything. And by the way, let me just be clear. Authenticity doesn't mean you even know all the facts about yourself. It's that you are acting in accordance with who you believe you are in that moment.

Mel Robbins 48:10 Hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 48:10 That's the win. It doesn't mean you're right. T- c-

Mel Robbins 48:12 Give me an example.

Dr. Todd Rose 48:14 So I could, I could believe, um, that I care about football. It's my preference. I love it so much 'cause l- you know, my mom taught me at, uh, uh, it matters, I do actually care quite a bit about it. Like, and, and so I express myself that way, right? I follow the Patriots. It's real, little tough right now, but, you know, (laughs) we'll get back. Um, but let's say I, turns out I buy season tickets and I go, and I'm like, "Oof, actually, I don't, turns out I don't actually like football anymore." Or maybe I never did, I just thought I did, okay? It wasn't about being accurate. It's that the choice I made at the time was consistent with who I believe I am.

Mel Robbins 48:54 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 48:54 All the benefits of, of, of authenticity accrue from that, not from being accurate.

Mel Robbins 48:59 So, in other words, you buying the Patriot tickets is an authentic decision-

Dr. Todd Rose 49:05 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 49:05 ... that aligns with what you believe to be true. You going and sitting there and freezing your rear end off while you sit on a sleeping bag, you know, in the middle of January watching a game in an open stadium-

Dr. Todd Rose 49:15 Quite literally-

Mel Robbins 49:16 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 49:16 ... my experience, yeah. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 49:16 And you're like, "Uh, I don't think I like this anymore."

Dr. Todd Rose 49:19 Nope. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 49:19 And that is also an authentic decision.

Dr. Todd Rose 49:21 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 49:22 I had the same experience. I grew up skiing, love skiing, loved skiing with my parents, loved skiing in Northern Michigan. Then I didn't ski for a while, then I married a guy who's a ski racer.

Dr. Todd Rose 49:31 Oh, geez.

Mel Robbins 49:31 And you know what I learned? I don't like skiing that much.

Dr. Todd Rose 49:34 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 49:34 And, you know, for... I, I can tell you an opposite one. Golf, hate golf. No time for golf. Don't care about golf. Didn't get golf. Don't understand why people watch golf.

Dr. Todd Rose 49:42 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 49:42 Then all of a sudden, I'm riding on a golf cart with my husband, and we're chatting and talking 'cause I just wanted to spend some time with him. Then I'm doing it with my parents.

Dr. Todd Rose 49:51 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 49:52 And I'm like, "Wow, it's kinda beautiful out here. Wow, we're talking a lot." Guess what?

Dr. Todd Rose 49:57 Turns out I love them.

Mel Robbins 49:57 I'm now thinking I might wanna play golf.

Dr. Todd Rose 49:59 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 49:59 And that's authentic.

Dr. Todd Rose 50:00 Correct. Because, remember, what we don't want is for you to stop growing and changing. So, at any moment, you have a set of beliefs about yourself.

Mel Robbins 50:08 Yep.

Dr. Todd Rose 50:08 And as long as they're aligned with who you believe you are, you get all the benefits of authenticity, which, they, they are incredible. A level of confidence that will just blow your mind, right? Not arrogance, just a deep confidence in yourself and your ability to make decisions.

Mel Robbins 50:21 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 50:22 Um, people who are authentic actually have higher levels of viewing the world as positive sum, which it is. There's enough and we can grow the pie, not just materialistically, but psychologically and spiritually, right?

Mel Robbins 50:35 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 50:35 Like, your success does not hurt me, it actually benefits me, that we can all win. Um, but more importantly, authentic people have phenomenally better relationships, 'cause obviously, right? 'Cause here's the thing, as we said a long ti- a while back, we want belonging. What we end up s- giving into is

Dr. Todd Rose 50:55 fitting in.

Mel Robbins 50:56 What is the difference between belonging and fitting in?

Dr. Todd Rose 51:01 Belonging is when you are recognized, accepted, and even loved for who you are. So, you have to do that for yourself first. But... And 'cause no one's gonna do that for you, but when you're in groups... And we've all felt this, right? Like, me with my grandmother, I knew I was good enough, like, flaws and all. It didn't matter. Like, I didn't have to be somebody else, even in a small way, for her to love me. When you have that kind of relationship, there's nothing better in the world, okay? Fitting in is, "You accept me if. You accept me if. If I like the things you like, if I do the things you want me to do, if I decide to be a computer scientist instead of an artist." So many of our relationships are built on that kind of if. And, you know, just like, um, when you're not physically healthy, you forget what it feels like to be healthy.

Mel Robbins 52:02 Hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 52:04 When we're used to fitting in, we forget what it feels like to truly belong. And I, and I'll say this, and I'll say this to anyone listening or viewing, you deserve to belong. You should not accept the status of just fitting in. It, it's not good enough, it doesn't lead to the place that you want it to lead to, and it causes a lot of harm to you and society.

Mel Robbins 52:25 What is the first step? Because I think, as you're listening, what you just said is both a wake-up call and it can be a little-

Dr. Todd Rose 52:37 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 52:37 ... crushing to your soul-

Dr. Todd Rose 52:39 Yeah, that's-

Mel Robbins 52:39 ... when you recognize your whole life, all you've tried to do is fit in.

Dr. Todd Rose 52:43 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 52:43 And I know that everybody wants to feel like their authentic self.

Dr. Todd Rose 52:48 Absolutely.

Mel Robbins 52:48 Everybody wants to be proud of themselves. Like, you wanna lay your head down on the pillow at night and know that you did the best that you could, you made the best decisions that you could, that you're proud of how you showed up, that you had good intentions. That is the gold standard that you, you know, it was a good day because you tried the best that you could to be a good person. And that starts with you being... making good decisions for yourself-

Dr. Todd Rose 53:14 Correct.

Mel Robbins 53:14 ... and not self-silencing to fit in.

Dr. Todd Rose 53:16 Here's the important part about authenticity. It is a process, it's not a destination. There's no such thing as, you could put all the work you want in right now and you're like, "I'm done." It's, it's, that's not how it works 'cause a flourishing life is one where you grow and change and discover and all that stuff. So, even if you were 100% right, right now, if you lock that in, you'd be inauthentic in the future. So, the things that people need to understand is, again, it's never too late. This is what's amazing, all the benefits of authenticity, the research shows, like, they accrue very quickly to you, no matter how old you are, no matter where you're starting from, um, it's, it's pretty amazing. You just have to get started, okay?

Mel Robbins 53:58 Okay.

Dr. Todd Rose 53:58 And here's the thing, there's, there's two things from my perspective. Um, the first is getting a handle on what you think you really believe.

Mel Robbins 54:05 How do you do that?

Dr. Todd Rose 54:06 So, so here's-

Mel Robbins 54:06 When you're, like, been-

Dr. Todd Rose 54:07 (clears throat)

Mel Robbins 54:08 ... gaslit by-

Dr. Todd Rose 54:08 Yeah. So-

Mel Robbins 54:09 ... all the noise?

Dr. Todd Rose 54:10 There's a very simple, uh, step that I've used and I've shared and people have used and it's worked. Ask yourself why on things you believe you believe, because when they're your honest beliefs that you've arrived at, you know why. I'll give you an example. I have a deep commitment, like probably most people, to human rights. It might be the most important concept to me of anything in the world, that every individual has moral worth and we are equal to one another, and we are never ever a means to someone else's ends. That's how I want to be viewed and treated, that's how I will view and treat other people. Human rights flows from dignity, okay? So, I know for sure I believe that.... but you'll be shocked at how many things you think you believe are just the norms of your society that you've never really questioned because you want to fit in. For me, um, didn't do very well in school and we can... eh, that, that's a understatement. I failed out of high school with a 0.9 GPA.

Mel Robbins 55:11 0.9?

Dr. Todd Rose 55:12 0.9.

Mel Robbins 55:12 That's possible?

Dr. Todd Rose 55:13 You have to work really hard to do that poorly.

Mel Robbins 55:14 (laughs)

Dr. Todd Rose 55:15 You know, I ended up failing out. Um, a couple of months later, my girlfriend at the time, who was my wife for 29 years found out she was pregnant. And this is rural Utah, e- it's not, not something one does (laughs) in rural Utah. We were on welfare. We end up with two kids, uh, by the time I was 20. Doing a string of minimum wage jobs. I mean, we had a paper route at 4:00 AM to supplement our income. We were, uh, selling blood plasma, you know, all the things you have to do. Um, and recognizing rock bottom, I was working at what was Circuit City, which they've gone out of business now, uh, and on my lunch break, I didn't have any money, so I went over to Barnes & Noble, and I was perusing their self-help section.

Mel Robbins 56:01 Mm.

Dr. Todd Rose 56:01 I had like no self-esteem. No, you know, I'd lied to myself a lot.

Mel Robbins 56:05 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 56:06 Um, I knew, I knew s- I something had to change. And I happened upon a book called The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem.

Mel Robbins 56:13 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 56:13 By Nathaniel Branden. It said, "Self-esteem is not something you can directly act on. It's the alignment of your beliefs and your behavior. And if your behavior and beliefs don't align, you won't respect yourself." Why would you? But this was the nugget for me that completely changed my life. I had always assumed that my beliefs were my beliefs, and that my behavior was what needed to change. But this book told me that's not true. That you may not actually believe the things you believe that you believe. And in my case, it was religious in nature.

Mel Robbins 56:49 Hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 56:50 I had tried so hard to align my behaviors to a set of beliefs that came from my religion, and I just failed a lot. And no, those behaviors weren't bad behaviors, they were just inconsistent.

Mel Robbins 57:02 Mm.

Dr. Todd Rose 57:04 And I thought, "W- wait a minute. It could be my beliefs that are the thing that's causing the problem?" And so, I spent a lot of time thinking about, "Well, why do I believe this?" And I realized, I didn't believe. And once I recognized that and started on the path of thinking about, "What is it, who am I? What do I believe?" Um, things got a lot easier. A lot easier.

Mel Robbins 57:25 Why?

Dr. Todd Rose 57:25 Because suddenly, I knew the root problem. I was constantly trying to get my behavior to where I... Just like if you're trying to conform to a group. Constantly trying to, "What am I supposed to do now? What do we do? Well, how do I dress? What do I, what do I drink?" You know? "What do, what career do I choose?" And once that, I had permission to start questioning my own beliefs-

Mel Robbins 57:46 Mm.

Dr. Todd Rose 57:46 ... I was able to get on a different path.

Mel Robbins 57:48 Mm.

Dr. Todd Rose 57:49 Um, and it never would've changed without that.

Mel Robbins 57:53 Ah, I think that's super profound. I think it's also crazy inspiring that you went from there-

Dr. Todd Rose 57:58 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 57:58 ... to becoming a graduate school professor at Harvard, and now running a think tank and doing this deeply important work. And I was so excited to have you on because I fundamentally refuse to believe that we are this divided.

Dr. Todd Rose 58:11 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 58:12 I fundamentally refuse to believe that people are unreasonable or lack character. I also fundamentally refuse to give that much power to all the noise.

Dr. Todd Rose 58:23 Right.

Mel Robbins 58:24 And you know, one of the things that I, I wanna hover on the authenticity piece. Because when somebody walks into a room that is very much authentically themselves, whether they have on just a cool outfit or they have a energy about them or there's a kindness to them, whatever it may be, you feel it.

Dr. Todd Rose 58:49 Mm-hmm. The energy of that is unbelievable.

Mel Robbins 58:51 It is intoxicating. And, and, and it's not a level of arrogance. There is something that, that I truly believe that we're all yearning for it, and we're looking for someone-

Dr. Todd Rose 59:06 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 59:06 ... to give us the permission.

Dr. Todd Rose 59:08 The permission. That's right. And, and they just, they're not trying to get you to do something, they just, "I'm gonna be me, you be you." Put it in different terms, like, "Let them, let me," right? And they're, they're, they're the embodiment of that. Some things happen. Because we so deeply want that, we gravity toward... The energy there is real. Right?

Mel Robbins 59:25 So how do you cultivate that energy? You mentioned let them and let me, and you also, when we were talking, said that is a tool that really helps you apply this s- this research and this data, that let them. Like, why don't you explain it?

Dr. Todd Rose 59:41 So-

Mel Robbins 59:41 Because how can you use-

Dr. Todd Rose 59:42 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 59:43 ... those two words, let them-

Dr. Todd Rose 59:44 That's it.

Mel Robbins 59:45 ... and those two words, let me, as a way for you to start to become more authentically yourself?

Dr. Todd Rose 59:52 Yeah. Well, this is why I was so excited to talk to you, because my scientific research, the work we do at Populace, my think tank, is, I would say, what we've uncovered is the science behind "let them, let me". We talked a lot about the conforming and all the problems there, but also the broader societal consequences of not doing that.

Mel Robbins 1:00:11 Wow.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:00:11 Right? So what do we know about how we shatter illusions, how we get back to authenticity? And it's the, the practical stuff you need to do to get on that path.

Mel Robbins 1:00:22 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:00:22 When I looked at, when I read your book, I was like, "Okay, this. If you just do this." It's not, it's not easy. It's simple, but it's not easy.

Mel Robbins 1:00:30 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:00:31 Right? And so, bringing it to a level of getting people on that journey. Again, authenticity is a journey, it's process, it's not a destination. You can start anytime, anywhere, no matter how old you are, no matter what your circumstances. Then, if all we did, and we'll tell, I'll tell you why. If you lean into let them, I mean, you framed a lot, and I think it's right, around how miserable we get when we try to control everybody else. But it goes a little further, right? Because-... as we start to participate in that sort of like, "You should believe what I'm saying too."

Mel Robbins 1:01:05 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:01:05 And what's funny about collective illusions, and this is one of those, like, I could not believe this. So once you start lying about your views, the research is pretty clear you start to lean into that. You become an enforcer of it. It's-

Mel Robbins 1:01:18 'Cause you don't wanna admit you're wrong?

Dr. Todd Rose 1:01:19 Yes, and because you always think, "People are gonna find me out."

Mel Robbins 1:01:22 Hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:01:22 'Cause I know I'm lying. It's called the illusion of transparency. They think everyone can tell that I'm not really a true believer. And so it turns out that people who lie about their views have a high probability to become enforcers of that view on other people. I'll give you a concrete example. Like, if I hear... Every time I hear a pastor who's anti-gay now, I'm like, "They're probably gay." Th- the number of times th- that just turns out to be true, I'm like, "Yeah, you're, you're protesting a bit much," right? But, like, once you're hiding that part of yourself, you start to become the person that's... literally leads the witch hunt to prove, like, "No, look, I'm a true believer." And so d- don't be that person, right? Because, like, the, the "let them" part of it is, the more you're seeking to control other people, not just their behavior but their beliefs, you are leading them down a path of self-silencing that will be catastrophic for them. But now you also know, it's catastrophic for all of us.

Mel Robbins 1:02:18 Well, the other application that I see, based on everything you shared, is that very profound difference between feeling a sense of belonging versus an obsession with trying to fit in. And to me, if you could speak a little bit about how the "let them" and the "let me" really gives you a tool to notice those moments where you're so scared of other people's opinion-

Dr. Todd Rose 1:02:44 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:02:44 ... or you're so seeking fitting in that you cut off access to authenticity and belonging.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:02:50 That's right. And so we... Th- the "let them" side, right? Because-

Mel Robbins 1:02:54 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:02:54 ... you are literally making it less likely that the people around you can live authentic lives. You talked those so well in the book. Like, like, the kid's like, "Really? Okay. For the, for the dance you're going to? Really? You haven't re- Okay." They wanna wear certain things. They wanna do these things. It's like, let them, because part of that is, let them be their authentic self.

Mel Robbins 1:03:13 Oh, I just... Yes. Yes. Your need to control is actually teaching other people that they have to fit in-

Dr. Todd Rose 1:03:20 Yes.

Mel Robbins 1:03:21 ... and you are squashing somebody else's authenticity.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:03:24 That's exactly right.

Mel Robbins 1:03:25 So it's how you stop yourself from making people conform.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:03:27 Correct. And then you flip it around, and the "let me." "I deserve to be authentic." And so that flip side, if I'm gonna give that same grace to other people now, I owe it to myself to give myself that same grace. "I deserve to belong. I don't need to settle for sit- for fitting in."

Mel Robbins 1:03:46 Hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:03:47 Right? "I deserve all the benefits that come from being my truest self. Um, and I shouldn't compromise that just because I believe other people want something different." And again, when collective illusions are layered into that, that thing you're about to, like, give up your authenticity for, they don't even want.

Mel Robbins 1:04:06 (laughs)

Dr. Todd Rose 1:04:06 Like,

Dr. Todd Rose 1:04:07 so what are we doing?

Mel Robbins 1:04:08 I- I- I just wanna say, I was kinda blown away, because when I first started using "let them" first, it was really to stop trying to control everybody so that I wasn't so stressed out all the time.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:04:21 Right.

Mel Robbins 1:04:22 But then it became very clear how my default was to fit in. My default was to seek approval. My default was to make everybody else happy. My default was to buy into the collective illusion and allow that to dictate what I do or don't do, like navigating your life based on everybody else. And you're telling us all of the things that you believe everybody else believes, they're largely wrong.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:04:47 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:04:48 And we're all desperate for somebody to say, "Hey, it's time to just stand up and be authentic."

Dr. Todd Rose 1:04:55 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:04:55 "It's time for you to stop trying to fit in, and it's time for you to make decisions and live your life in a way that really aligns with you."

Dr. Todd Rose 1:05:01 And-

Mel Robbins 1:05:01 And I hadn't thought about the "let me" part truly as a tool for authenticity-

Dr. Todd Rose 1:05:06 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:05:07 ... and courage in that way.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:05:07 And that's what, that's- that's how it resonated with me, which, isn't that funny?

Mel Robbins 1:05:10 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:05:11 Um, and if you read all of our research, and you realize, "Wait, so if I let them be their authentic self"-

Mel Robbins 1:05:19 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:05:19 ... and we did that at scale, what kind of society would we have? Well, let's-

Mel Robbins 1:05:24 Well, see, I worry-

Dr. Todd Rose 1:05:25 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:05:26 ... that if we let people be their authentic self, that we would have a runaway train of people who are selfish and not conscientious-

Dr. Todd Rose 1:05:35 Yup.

Mel Robbins 1:05:35 ... and who are chasing fame and profit-

Dr. Todd Rose 1:05:38 Yup.

Mel Robbins 1:05:38 ... and trashing human beings for all the tech giants, and that bots would run the world. And what you're now teaching me is that my belief, that if I just let people run wild, the worst of humanity would rise to the top. And you're telling me, "Mel..."

Dr. Todd Rose 1:05:55 Not true.

Mel Robbins 1:05:56 What is true?

Dr. Todd Rose 1:05:57 Go- go back to the success index.

Mel Robbins 1:05:59 Okay.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:05:59 The private highest aspirations we have for the lives we wanna live ourselves, okay? Remember, top trade-off priority, "I wanna do work that has a positive impact on other people."

Mel Robbins 1:06:12 Hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:06:12 "I wanna be trustworthy. I wanna have a family. I wanna be good to other people. I wanna be involved in my community. I wanna achieve on things that matter. I, I want an education. I want these things." Like, this is what people would do if we leaned into "let them, let me."

Mel Robbins 1:06:33 Hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:06:34 And the only reason we're afraid of it is 'cause we've fallen for the illusions, right?

Mel Robbins 1:06:38 Hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:06:38 We've- we've been with this illusion for a while, and so we're like, "Oh." I mean, it's funny, um, we asked people about trust.

Mel Robbins 1:06:43 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:06:45 Privately, are you trustworthy? 93% of people said, "Of course I'm trustworthy. I, and I want that. That matters to me." What do you think other people say? "Oh, no, no, no. Other people don't care about being trustworthy. They're not trustworthy." And you're like, "Yeah, it's a massive illusion." And so if I'm looking around thinking, "Other people don't even care about being trustworthy."... and I think they all want fame and the zero sum, like, winner take all-

Mel Robbins 1:07:10 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:07:10 ... they, they will step on my-

Mel Robbins 1:07:12 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:07:12 ... thing to get to me. Why would I want to let them-

Mel Robbins 1:07:16 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:07:16 ... be able to live their authentic lives? Because if that were who they really are, that would be awful.

Mel Robbins 1:07:21 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:07:22 And so what we end up doing is having to control everybody.

Mel Robbins 1:07:24 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:07:25 And that's true in our interpersonal lives that you, you wrote about. It's also true all the way up to our political lives, where we've given up on these fundamental values like, "You know what? You live your life, I'll live mine, as long as we're not hurting each other." Like, we've lost a willingness to invest in one another because we believe the illusion.

Mel Robbins 1:07:45 Where did all this lack of trust come from? I know you have a story.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:07:48 So we have, um... So social trust, which is trust in strangers.

Mel Robbins 1:07:53 Okay.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:07:53 Right? The single best predictor of the health and flourishing of democracies. At the end of the day, we talk about trust in institutions, I don't need to trust the government. I need to have confidence that they'll do what they say, so accountability, transparency. The only trust that matters is that we trust each other.

Mel Robbins 1:08:11 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:08:12 So it predicts almost everything that matters (laughs) , uh, collectively, um, and ever since we implemented in, in the 1930s, in, in the United States, scientific management, Frederick Taylor, which is where we got standardization to everything-

Mel Robbins 1:08:27 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:08:27 ... everything became standardized. He invented the concept of a manager, so you just do the job I'm telling you, you don't get any say in what you do, in the name of efficiency. Every single generation since has had lower social trust than the preceding generation. Right now in America, we have the lowest levels of social trust ever recorded.

Mel Robbins 1:08:46 Now, is that true or is that an illusion?

Dr. Todd Rose 1:08:47 No.

Mel Robbins 1:08:47 You know what I'm saying? Like, it's true.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:08:48 It's true. It's even worse in private right now-

Mel Robbins 1:08:50 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:08:50 ... than it is in public.

Mel Robbins 1:08:51 Oh, no.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:08:51 Now, here's the good news though. Okay?

Mel Robbins 1:08:53 Okay.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:08:53 And this is what matters. If I could wave a magic wand and say, "What's the one thing I could change about this country?" Besides, and again, honestly, everybody leaning in to let them (laughs) and let me because the illusions would have nowhere to hide, and we'd obviously see that we have a lot in common-

Mel Robbins 1:09:07 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:09:07 ... and that people trusted, it's this illusion of trust. Okay? What's interesting in our data... So w- when you look across the world, like Scandinavian countries has very high levels of social trust.

Mel Robbins 1:09:19 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:09:19 And you can see the cohesion, the, the trust in each other, the investment in each other. You only have to get above 50% social trust for that to kick in. When a majority of people believe a majority of people in their society are trustworthy-

Mel Robbins 1:09:31 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:09:32 ... good things start to happen.

Mel Robbins 1:09:33 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:09:33 When you dip into, like, the 30s, it spirals the other way, right? We start to need to control each other. We're, we're in the low, uh, mid-30s right now, okay? In our data though, in private, here's what's, I think is fascinating. If you cut the data by whether you're self-silencing, people that self-silence have the lowest levels of social trust ever. It's, they, they are, like, in the low-30s percents of people who believe other people can be trusted. Okay? If you're one of the one-third that hasn't self-silenced, they have levels of social trust that rival Scandinavian countries.

Mel Robbins 1:10:13 Hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:10:15 So there's something about feeling like you're in a society where you can't even say your opinion, why would I trust everybody else if I feel like I can't be me?

Mel Robbins 1:10:25 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:10:26 So this issue of needing to reclaim an authenticity, it might be the single most important thing you could do to heal your society, 'cause it is the fastest way to increase social trust.

Mel Robbins 1:10:38 Well, I can give an example that came to mind as you were talking about plummeting trust. If you have ever had any kind of tragedy hit your community, whether it's a fire or a flood or something else, what happens?

Dr. Todd Rose 1:10:54 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:10:54 People reveal who they are at their core. Like, you have some illness in a family, family members that are divided on politics that haven't talked for two years-

Dr. Todd Rose 1:11:03 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:11:03 ... all of a sudden come in because it reduces us to just our core values in a moment where it's all hands on deck.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:11:14 Yeah. It's, you're exactly right. Like, I had a, um, you know, couple years ago I lost my wife, of 20 years, and it was unbelievable to see people who I thought I had beefs with, right? Um, 'cause some people, we, we'd had challenges, it doesn't matter anymore. There's this common humanity that comes together, um, and you're right, you see this in these, uh, trauma and tragedy, we reveal who we are.

Mel Robbins 1:11:39 Hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:11:39 Okay? If we-

Mel Robbins 1:11:40 Why is that true?

Dr. Todd Rose 1:11:41 Because, um, the, the norm around tragedy, right?

Mel Robbins 1:11:45 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:11:46 We, we have norms in this country and other countries that it's all hands on deck, we just rally, it's what we do. Okay? Um, I was a little worried some of the last, uh, natural disasters in the country when the first thing we saw was the politicization of it, the-

Mel Robbins 1:12:00 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:12:00 ... the blaming right off the bat, but then that, that dissolved pretty quick at the ground level-

Mel Robbins 1:12:04 Yeah.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:12:04 ... into, "We need to help each other," because as human beings, we empathize, that's one of our magical traits, right? We can put ourselves in other people's shoes, we can think about how we would want to be treated, and we can activate compassion and act on it. When we see people in those times of need, it reveals who, what our real character is. Imagine what it would've been like if the illusion was correct.

Mel Robbins 1:12:27 That nobody cares, we don't trust e- nobody shows up.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:12:29 Nobody shows up. And the pro- the thing, right now that's not the case, but if we don't recognize this problem and take some responsibility for it, it could become the case.

Mel Robbins 1:12:40 Do you truly believe, based on all of this data, that if every single one of us as an individual were to really embrace the facts that when it comes to the things that we all value as human beings, we all value the same 80% of things, so we are all so much more alike-

Dr. Todd Rose 1:13:08 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:13:08 ... we want the same things for ourselves and each other, if we were to operate with that-... and then we were to go into our day-to-day lives and say, "My only job is to let other people be themselves and be who they are, and with the presumption that underneath it, they value character-"

Dr. Todd Rose 1:13:27 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:13:28 "... underneath it, they want meaningful work, underneath it, they want better for their friends and for their family," that if we operate like that, and then we also say to ourselves, "My job is to then show up and make decisions with the information I have, the best that I can day to day-"

Dr. Todd Rose 1:13:48 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:13:49 "... that really align what I truly value," like, to give myself that permission and to find the courage to do it, whether it's how you post on social, or whether you talk at work, or whether you ski, or not this season-

Dr. Todd Rose 1:14:01 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:14:01 ... whether you wanna live where you live, whether you wanna go to Sizzlers or not. Like, that you just start to slowly calibrate your life back toward the things that you know deeply matter to you. Like, simply volunteering in a place in your community would make you feel more authentic.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:14:21 Yes.

Mel Robbins 1:14:22 Changing your major could make you feel more authentic. Asking your brother or sister for a little help with mom and dad because you've self-silenced would make you feel a little authentic. It doesn't have to do with what they are gonna say.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:14:34 That's right.

Mel Robbins 1:14:35 You may have a collective illusion that they're not gonna do anything because you think everybody's selfish now.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:14:40 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:14:41 But that's the noise. The truth is-

Dr. Todd Rose 1:14:42 That's the noise.

Mel Robbins 1:14:42 ... deep down, people care about the same things.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:14:46 And it, and it-

Mel Robbins 1:14:47 Like, it starts with you. You really-

Dr. Todd Rose 1:14:49 It-

Mel Robbins 1:14:49 ... believe that that's what's gonna turn this all around.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:14:52 Yeah. Le- let me, let me give you a historical example when I say... 'cause it feels like the problems are too big.

Mel Robbins 1:14:58 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:14:59 Um-

Mel Robbins 1:14:59 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:14:59 ... they must require these big solutions.

Mel Robbins 1:15:01 Yes.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:15:01 It's not true. Let me give you an example. Uh, as a reformed academic, I'm gonna lean into a, a

Dr. Todd Rose 1:15:06 bigger example just once-

Mel Robbins 1:15:07 Please.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:15:07 ... but I think it's important. Um, when the problem is a collective illusion, and you pursue the right strategy, which is this authenticity strategy, right?

Mel Robbins 1:15:16 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:15:16 It's not about persuading, it's about revealing. It's showing people. The kind of social change that can happen at a... how fast it can happen, how big it can happen, the best example of this is the Velvet Revolution in Czechoslovakia. This has puzzled historians for a long time. It happened in 19... late, late '80s. Czechoslovakia had been under Communist rule for a long time, just brutal. Other countries had tried to revolt, Hungary, other things, like, bloody massacres as a result. The Velvet Revolution is famous because it's the only time that people have overthrown a communist regime, uh, without a single person dying, without a single shot being fired. Okay?

Mel Robbins 1:15:59 Wow.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:15:59 And people were like, "How does that happen?" It's an anomaly. Okay. The best part about it is who led it, and this is how you'll get to the secret of it, is a person named Václav Havel, okay? And I'm gonna say right now, for everyone listening or watching, if you go online, you can download for free, online, he wrote a manifesto about this called The Power of the Powerless, that is... will chill you to the bones. It will sound like he's writing about our time today, um, but he, he writes about how he discovered the real problem (mouse clicking) in their society (mouse clicking) was this collective illusion.

Mel Robbins 1:16:34 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:16:35 So, he's had no military experience, he wasn't a politician, he was a poet and a playwright, and he was anti-communist, but he, he decides... He writes this play called The Garden Party, and it was a satire about communism. It was so subtle that the censors didn't even know they were being made fun of, okay? So he puts it on, it becomes a runaway hit. It's like the Hamilton of the time there. It sold out every night, he attends every single, uh, play, and he doesn't watch the play, he watches the audience. And he said, "They laughed at all the right parts. They laughed at things that you would not find funny if you truly believed in communism." And he writes in The Power of the Powerless that he recognizes the fundamental problem was not that the people of Czechoslovakia believed in communism, it's that they believed that they believed.

Mel Robbins 1:17:28 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:17:28 It was a collective illusion. I mean, I don't know how he got there, but it's amazing he figured it out. The solution then was not weapons, it was not even political, it was authenticity. He called it authenticity and personal responsibility. And here's what he did. He said, "Well then the answer is we've got to create ways for people to start to be comfortable living in truth again, because we've become way too comfortable living in the lie." Okay? So he starts what he called the Small Works. How do we help people start to lean into their authentic selves in ways that weren't risky to begin with? Literally created a literary magazine so people could publish poetry. They did gardening, they did all these things. People mocked him. Mocked him. Like, even people who... his fellow revolutionaries were like, "This is so naive. You're g-" They have all the guns, "You're gonna defeat them with authenticity and personal responsibility?" But they did. A- and here's what's crazy. Nobody saw it coming. The CIA completely missed it, the KGB missed it entirely. Even Havel himself didn't appreciate how fast it could change when it was an illusion. Just a few months before the student protest that led... 12 days of protest, government falls, he's interviewed in an international magazine, and he's trying to rally the troops, and he's like, "Look, revolutions take time, um, you have to be committed." He's like, "Look, I probably won't even be alive to see the end of this, but I am in it." Right? Three months later, he was the first democratically elected president of a free Czechoslovakia. That's what I mean when I say... when, when the problem is an illusion, two things, only we can solve it.

Mel Robbins 1:19:14 Hmm.

Dr. Todd Rose 1:19:14 It didn't require somebody from on high telling us something. It was the everyday people learning to live in truth-... in small ways that start to build habit, that lead to a, "We believe, we believe this now," right? And I think about it, I think about that story all the time, because I think, look,