EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 29,890 words- 0:00 – 4:50
Meet the Guest
- MJDr. Meg Jay
(instrumental music plays) We say, "Oh, your 20s, these are gonna be the best years of your life." Empirically not true. Your 20s are the most difficult decade in adulthood. It's a time of a lot of firsts and a lot of worsts. You have your first and worst job, your first and worst relationships, your first and worst breakups. It's a very, very tricky time. The truth is, your 20s are-
- MRMel Robbins
Oh my gosh. (paper rustles) Dr. Meg Jay is here in our Boston studios. Dr. Jay has spent the last two decades in clinical practice, working with people in their 20s. She also holds a PhD in Clinical Psychology from UC Berkeley. The New York Times calls Dr. Jay, "The patron saint for 20-somethings," because she wrote the seminal and generational defining book. It's called The Defining Decade, about the hardest decade of everyone's life, which is your 20s. Her TED Talk has been viewed more than 17 million times, and today, she is here to share the advice you have never heard about your 20s. What do you think is wrong about the way the average person, particularly in their 20s, thinks about dating?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
(inhales)
- MRMel Robbins
About half of 20-somethings are unemployed or underemployed. Why do you think so many people are freaked out by those statistics?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Older adults often look at 20-somethings, and they think, "What do they have to feel so stressed out about?"
- MRMel Robbins
What do you want to say to someone who's saying, "Well, I'll, I'll just figure this out later. I got plenty of time"?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
20-somethings feel like they have time to figure it out, without maybe fully understanding it takes time to figure it out.
- MRMel Robbins
I wanna shift to something that a lot of people are afraid to talk about, reproduction and family planning.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
I love to go there.
- MRMel Robbins
If the person listening takes just one action today, what do you think the most important thing to do is?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
(clicks tongue) (breathes deeply) (clock ticks) (instrumental music plays)
- MRMel Robbins
Dr. Meg Jay, I am so excited to welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, I know that our conversation is gonna be one that is spread all around the world, but I have to say, selfishly... (laughs)
- MJDr. Meg Jay
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
I have three kids in their 20s.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
So this is for you.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
It's, it's, it's us.
- MRMel Robbins
This is for me-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
And your listener.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And for you, uh, you're here with us on YouTube, or you are spending time with us right now, listening. This is for you as well. Whether you're listening and you're in your 20s, or there are people in your life that you care about are, you wrote the defining book, and that's the perfect word for it, because over a decade ago, you write, wrote this book, The Defining Decade: Why Your 20s Matter and How to Make the Most of Them Now. And we're gonna dig into that, and your new book, The 20 Something Treatment: A Revolutionary Remedy for an Uncertain Age. But here's where I'd like to start.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Okay.
- MRMel Robbins
I would love to have you talk to the person who is with us right now, and tell them what they could experience about life that would be different if they take everything to heart that you're about to teach us, and they put it to use in their life or share it with somebody that they love.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Okay. What will be different is, they'll be able to make the most of the decade in front of them, no matter what that decade is. Um, it's never too early to live intentionally and courageously, but it's also never too late.
- MRMel Robbins
You use the word intentionally. What does it mean to live intentionally?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
I think that means thoughtfully, being true to yourself, being authentic, thinking about the future while you're also living in the present. So figuring out, "What am I trying to do with my one life, or with my 20s, or even with my 40s, or with my 50s?" Rather than getting caught up in maybe what everyone else is doing or not paying attention, and then 10 years has passed you by.
- MRMel Robbins
I wanna read a passage from your mega bestseller, The Defining Decade. "Your 20s matter. 80% of life's most defining moments take place by the age of 35. Your earning power is decided in your first 10 years of work. More than half of us are married or dating or living with our future partner by the age of 30. Your brain and your personality change more during your 20s than at any time before or after. Your social network is about as big as it is ever going to get. Your defining decade coincides with your peak childbearing years. Meanwhile, your 20s are the most uncertain years you will ever know." Why do you think so many people are freaked out by those statistics and they don't wanna talk about it? 'Cause that's not your opinion. Those are the facts.
- 4:50 – 9:41
Why Your Twenties Are More Important Than You Realize
- MJDr. Meg Jay
The truth is, your 20s are, uh, the most defining decade of adulthood, and also, in many ways, the most difficult decade in adulthood. The reason for that is it's a time of a lot of firsts and a lot of worsts. You have your first and worst job, your first and worst relationships, your first and worst breakups. It's a very, very tricky time. And I think older adults often look at 20-somethings, and they think, "Oh, they don't have partners or houses or mortgages or kids. You know, what do they have to feel so stressed out about?" But I think what they don't realize is that it's stressful not to have those things, and even more importantly, not to know if you ever will.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh my gosh. As a parent, you just made me feel sad.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Aw. It's hard. It's hard to be a 20-something, yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, because I have been guilty-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... of saying, "Well, you don't have kids. You know what? You can figure it out. You can try anything."
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
"The world's your oyster. Go do what you want." Like, "What are y'all worked up about?" Like, "La-di-da-di-da-di-da." But I'd never really stopped to think...... about the fear that you might not have those things that you wanted, or you might not be able to figure it out.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Right. I've had so many clients and, and students over the years say, "If I knew it was, I was all, I was gonna have it all eventually, I could get through this ti- I don't need it now, but if I knew I was going to have it, I could get through this time so much easier." And of course, we can't see into the future. We just have to create the future, um, as best as we can.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, you've also said that the reason why it's so important to recognize that your 20s are your defining decade is because you've spent countless hours with 30 and 40-somethings who are devastated by the price they're paying for the lack of direction, the lack of urgency, to use one of your words, in their 20s. So what do you wanna say to someone who is in their 20s and who's saying, "Well, I'll, I'll just figure this out later. I, I don't have to figure this out right now. I got plenty of time"?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
You know, I think the first thing I would, would actually not say, it would be a question I would ask, "What, what are they waiting for?"
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Um, that I think 20-somethings feel like they have time to figure it out without maybe fully understanding it takes time to figure it out.
- MRMel Robbins
Ooh.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
So, the sooner you start that process, the better. Um, if you try to start figuring everything out in your 30s, you're probably gonna be pretty crunched for time. You may not get everything you want. I don't want that to happen, which is why in The Defining Decade, I don't say you have to have it all figured out by 30. I say please start figuring it out by 30.
- MRMel Robbins
I love that distinction, the distinction of, "Oh, you know, I have time to figure it out," versus, "It takes time to figure it out." And so when you're talking to somebody in their 20s, how do you counsel somebody who is freaking out about the fact that they don't have it all figured out? And now I start to feel anxious that I don't have it figured out, and now I'm paralyzed by that. And so when somebody feels paralyzed, they don't do anything, which means they're not figuring it out.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
So how do you counsel somebody to flip from that state of kind of paralysis-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm.
- MRMel Robbins
... to it takes time to figure it out? And my point is you need to start getting serious about figuring it out.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm. Well, we start. We start with something. I think one thing whe- where people go wrong with 20-somethings is that I think they think reassurance and saying, "It's fine. You've got all the time in the world. You'll figure it out." Uh, reassurance doesn't actually make people feel better, or it makes them feel better for about an hour or a day, and then they come back for more. We call, uh, clients, or 20-somethings like this, people like this reassurance junkies of-
- MRMel Robbins
Reassurance junkies?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
... yeah, th- they're anxious. They get a little hit of reinsur- reassurance. They feel better for a minute, but then they have to come back for more because reassurance is, it's empty. Um, instead of saying, "Oh, it's fine. It doesn't matter. You'll be fine," I say, "Hey, I'm taking your concern seriously, so what, what are we going to do? What are you going to do? Where can you start? Let's start now." That that actually, uh, makes people feel better than telling them they'll be fine. It's saying, "Well, let's make sure you're fine. Let's do something about it."
- MRMel Robbins
You said that, um, the 20s are such an uncertain and difficult decade because it's full of firsts and worsts.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Yes. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
And I'd love to have you speak just a little bit to what are some of the things that 20-somethings feel a lot of anxiety about that might surprise somebody who's not in their 20s to hear causes anxiety in that decade-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Hm.
- MRMel Robbins
... of firsts and worsts?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Yeah, um, I mean, I think really to understand what is so difficult, um, about the 20s is that it's the most uncertain time of life. So it's probably the only time in your life where everything is uncertain
- 9:41 – 13:51
The College Mistakes That Could Cost You Later
- MJDr. Meg Jay
all at the same time. So work is uncertain. Love is uncertain. Finances are uncertain. The brain is still developing. Emotional stability is still coming together. So, uh, you know, I think most of us in 30s or 40s or 50s, maybe we have w- you know, work goes sideways or romance is blowing up. But for 20-somethings, everything is uncertain at worst, at, at, at once. The brain really hates that. Uh, the brain interprets uncertainty as danger. So 20-somethings are walking around in a pretty low-level state of sort of chronic stress and anxiety around everything feels dangerous because they don't have those adult sources of safety. So they may feel anxious, um, about, "I don't know how to talk to my roommate, so I'm sending them texts instead of saying, 'Hey, can we have a conversation?'" Or, uh, a big one is, "I don't know how to talk to my boss and ask for this weekend off that I need for my sister's wedding," or, "I don't know how to go on a date. I've never ha- kissed anybody before. I've never had sex. Um, I'm worried I'll never be able to pay my bills." They're, they're feeling anxious and worried about just about everything that's uncertain, and that's just about everything.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, what's interesting is if you've had a child that has gone off to college or gone into the military or gone to a trade school, especially if they leave home, there's this assumption that they're maturing and they're gaining those skills and that by the time they get out of college or trade school or the military, okay, they got it all figured out. And what you're making me realize is, wait a minute, those are life skills that you don't just stumble upon.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
You have to have experiences or people in your life that, that teach you those life skills.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Right, experiences usually, and I have to say, college is a whole other conversation. Have me back, and we'll talk about that. I have a lot of strong opinions and thoughts and feelings about college, which I love. But, uh, uh, people get too hung up on whether to go to college, where to go to college, what to major in. The biggest question in higher education is how to go to college, how to do college. That is what is going to determine whether or not college pays out, off for you is how you did it, not whether you sh-... sort of showed up for four years and then got a piece of paper. The most important stuff in college happens between classes. It's the, did you or did you not go to the college center or career center? Did you or did you not go have a conversation with your professor and get more comfortable talking to people in positions of power or learn about an internship? So we can do a whole-
- MRMel Robbins
Well, let's, let's-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
... other show on that.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, let's talk about-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... what are five things that people get wrong about college that they need to be doing that m- make the college experience what it should be or could be?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Number one, go to class. People out there, I just gave a talk at, at UVA orientation a couple d- uh, days ago, and I said, "I know all the parents out there, you assume your kids are going to class. I work at UVA, I can tell you, I wouldn't be assuming that." Because with technology, it's never been more possible to not go to class, look at the slides, not look at the slides. But going to class, it, it's just showing up for life. It gets you out of bed. It's like we were talking about with work, it adds structure to your day. You might start to kind of have a relationship with a professor or think, "Oh, I'm gonna go visit that person in office hours." So just going to class is some very low-hanging fruit, but an amazing way to start. Another piece of advice is to make a calendar. Take all your syllabi, put them all in one place. You've got, you know, all the classes, all the assignments, all the readings, all the deadlines, all in one place. Most students don't do that. Um, another one I'll, I'll mention, one of the biggest predictors of whether college pays off for people, which is very important to people right now, is whether or not they had an internship in college. Because the best preparation for work is work. The best preparation for work is not showing up to a college class in your pajamas and shopping on your laptop, which is, you know, frankly (laughs) what a lot
- 13:51 – 20:54
The Myths About Your 20s That Are Holding You Back
- MJDr. Meg Jay
of college students are doing. So no judgment, I'm just saying that will not prepare you for work. So the best preparation for work is work. Um, so I wanna see you as a college student having at least one internship, at least one job before you graduate. If you graduate from college and you're looking for your first job, you've done something wrong.
- MRMel Robbins
I love this. What else?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
(laughs) Um, I could go on-
- MRMel Robbins
Keep going.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
... uh, uh, all day. I'm, I'm, yeah -
- MRMel Robbins
No, keep going about this. What else? What e- like, 'cause, 'cause see, 'cause just that visual of showing up in your pajamas and shopping online-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... it, it may seem cool to your friends, but it's disrespectful to you in ter- not you, the professor-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Right, sure, sure.
- MRMel Robbins
... but it's disrespectful-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
To you as the-
- MRMel Robbins
... to you as the student-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
... as, as the consumer.
- MRMel Robbins
... and the consumer.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
You're paying.
- MRMel Robbins
And if somebody else is paying for it-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... disrespectful to them.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Right, right. Absolutely.
- MRMel Robbins
But I think a lot of kids go to college because they think they should and it's a box to check and their friends are going and they want it to look a certain way on Instagram-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... and they've lost sight of what it's actually meant to do and what it could do until senior year-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Absolutely.
- MRMel Robbins
... rolls around and uh-oh.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
I get it. I, I, we know, went to college myself and didn't do everything perfectly. But if that's entirely where you're coming from for the four years, y- you're, you're really not going to be prepared. And, you know, I said the most wonderful thing about working with 20-somethings, they're like planes just after takeoff. Very easy to help them course correct. The toughest 20-somethings to work with are the ones whose lives never took off after college, so that they didn't even get the lift off, because then you're, you're, you're having to create that.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, in your new bestselling book, The 20 Something Treatment, I'm reading on page 76, you say, "Let's clear something up. Contrary to what popular culture and social media may suggest, your 20s are probably not going to be the best years of your life, at least not emotionally. These may or may not be the years when you look your best, but they are unlikely to be the years when you feel your best. In fact, statistically speaking, your 20s are likely to be the years when you will feel your worst."
- MJDr. Meg Jay
That's right. It's funny, I've been working with 20-somethings for 25 years, and, uh, a- again and again, when people say, "What do you specialize in?" And I say, "20-somethings." They say, "Why would you do that?" Just sort of imagining they couldn't possibly have any problems, but it's actually, they are, I'm sorry (laughs) to say, um, the mental health low point of life, um, which is why I've been working with this age group for two decades, because it is the most challenging time from a mental health perspective, for all the reasons we just talked about. Um, it's also a time which we'll get to where you can feel better pretty quickly, and a little, uh, a little bit of advice goes a long way. So, you know, it's, it's up from here.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, I can't wait to get into how we move from panicking in your 20s to problem-solving and how those of us that have 20-somethings in our life can be more of an, uh, a support system in moving to problem-solving, but I do wanna read a little bit more from-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Okay.
- MRMel Robbins
... The 20 Something Treatment. This is page 110. And the reason why I love this section of the book is because you helped me to really drop into sort of that quiet psychological state of worry-
- 20:54 – 35:09
What to Do When You Don’t Know No Idea What You Want Yet
- MJDr. Meg Jay
your-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
... 30s and your 40s and your 50s. And every study done shows that on average, life gets better acro- across every decade of adulthood. And I want that person that I'm working with to be one of those people where they feel more confident, more competent. Their relationships are better, their career is better, their partnership is better, they have kids if they want them. They're experiencing, you know, the joys and the struggles of that. They're finding their purpose, um, th- that there's really a lot to look forward to, um, in your 20s, but even more so beyond. And that's just sort of the opposite of what people hear. You know, not only do they hear, "30's the new 20," they also kinda hear, "Ugh, life is over when you're 30. There's nothing good after that." When in fact, I have to tell you, Mel, I've been doing this for 25 years, I have never heard from an old student or client who said, "Gosh, I wish I was back in my 20s." They all reach out and say, "Life is so much better in my 30s or in my 40s."
- MRMel Robbins
You know, I, 20s were the worst decade of my life.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
I- I will literally have talked about it a lot. I do not like the person that I was. I was going through a lot of what you're talking about-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm. Totally normal.
- MRMel Robbins
... and never would have been-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Right. Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
That's totally normal? Is that, that's a sign that you're doing your 20s correctly?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
You're, you're n- You're on track, yes.
- MRMel Robbins
I would love to kind of break down each area of life and career and love that you see 20-somethings struggling with in your practice and that you've seen in the research, and I wanna read to you from your best-selling book, Defining Decade. "The world of work has officially been disrupted, which means there are more choices but more confusion too. Because short-term work has replaced long-term careers, the average 20-something will have about a handful of jobs in their 20s alone. Young adults are more educated and engaged than ever before, but dishearteningly, their first jobs out of school may not even require a college degree. Other entry-level jobs have gone overseas, making it difficult for some young adults to gain a foothold at home. For those who can swing it, an unpaid internship is the new starter job and at any given time, about half of 20-somethings are unemployed or underemployed." Wow. Wow.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And we didn't even talk about student debt.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
No, right.
- MRMel Robbins
And we didn't even talk about the fact that we are now in a hybrid work and a remote work environment. The reality is brutal.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
How are you supposed to build a successful career-... coming out of school and having no work experience in your 20s.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm. You build it one good piece of identity capital at a time. So, identity capital, um, it's actually a really fabulous and flexible concept. It's not mine, I'm the middle man teaching people about it, but, um, it's really about doing things that add value to who you are. So maybe it's, you get the best job that you can, even if it's not a great job. You go for the advanced degree, you get the certifications or the skills that you can build on, that, on average, actually young adults will have nine different jobs by the age of 35, and most will ultimately wind up in careers, and, uh, often be successful in careers that they had never heard of when they were in college and that didn't even exist when they were in college. So, gone are the days when you need to be thinking at 24, "Who am I going to be forever?" You can't predict it, you don't know it, um, but if you're just going one good job at a time, one good piece of identity capital a- at a time, then that builds over time, and- and you continue to build on it. I mean, you and I are really probably both great examples of how we had lots of different pieces of identity capital in our 20s and our 30s, and now we're doing things with it that we could have never foreseen. But it's just getting out there and doing things that add value, that are investments in yourself, skills that you can take into the workplace that lead to other skills, that lead to other skills, that lead to other opportunities.
- MRMel Robbins
Can you give the person listening a s- few examples of what identity capital might be? Because I think, you know, when you're in it and you've got that job and you're working at a coffee shop-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
... or you're a hostess even though you were an economics major-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... or you're facing a brutal kind of environment in terms of hiring and you're just sending resumes and sending resumes and nothing is- is clicking and you're not quite sure what to do, what does and what can identity capital opportunities-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... look like as a 20-year-old?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
I mean, the great thing about identity capital is it can be a lot of things, depending on who you're trying to be or who you think you might be trying to be. So obviously, college degree, that's an I- that's a piece of identity capital.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Any internship or- or job you have, even if it's not a great job, you have to be learning something, it has to be adding value to you somehow. If you're a barista or a bartender and you don't wanna keep doing that, if you wanna keep doing that, awesome. If you don't wanna keep doing that, you can still be earning pieces of identity capital on the side of maybe your, um, getting a certification in X, Y, or Z to signal that you're trying to pivot into this industry. Um, maybe you're leading a community group on A, B, or C that shows your engagement with, um, philanthropy or community. So it's really anything that shows how you've invested in yourself and what you have to offer the workplace. So, identity capital is very flexible, and one piece leads to another leads to another.
- MRMel Robbins
Is there anything that you say, Dr. J., to somebody who is currently in a job? They don't like it, they know it's not the (laughs) endgame, might not even be in the industry they wanna be in, they have no idea what to do next. How do they begin to start to solve this problem-
- 35:09 – 43:19
The 20-Something’s Guide to Love, Marriage & Finding Your Person
- MJDr. Meg Jay
of, you know, "I really need to change. This isn't going to work for me." Uh, you know, I think as parents, uh, you know, there's, um, a lot of research around how people change and one of the biggest pivots there is taking people from like the, the pre-contemplation to contemplation of, "I'm not even thinking about changing," to, "I'm thinking about changing." And so, people ask me, "How do I get my kid to think about changing?" And I say, "Give them something to contemplate. Uh, give them a book to read, send them a podcast to listen to. You know, sends, send them some- something you saw on Instagram and just, uh, start to put it i- in their minds that, you know, maybe there's something I need to start thinking about here."
- MRMel Robbins
Well, Dr. J, I feel like I can hear, share, share-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
(laughs) .
- MRMel Robbins
... send-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
(laughs) .
- MRMel Robbins
... text right now because while the data and the research around the factors that create a lot of uncertainty in this decade can be very overwhelming-You say there's a lot of good news, and you say that it, it is possible to cut right through the noise-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
... and to move from that paralysis that we keep hearing to, like, "Well, let's just solve the problem."
- MJDr. Meg Jay
W- right. Well, actually, that's one gripe I have with the media right now, is I feel like every story is about how bad it is for 20-somethings, of what's happened to them, the pandemic or recessions or unemployment, that we're always talking about what has happened to them, rather than what can they do about it, that in life things are going to happen, and we always have to say, "Okay, well, what am I going to do about what's happened?" We're kind of leaving it at what's happened and why it's so hard instead of saying, "But you can do something."
- MRMel Robbins
We've talked about career and work, but I would love to now shift to something every 20-something seems to be struggling with, which is dating and love.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Okay.
- MRMel Robbins
And you've said that the person that you choose to be with might be the most important decision of your life. Let's talk about that.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Yeah, glad to. So we were talking about work, and one reason I talk so much about work, it's the biggest source of growth and change across adulthood. Relationships, however, especially romantic relationships, are the biggest source of happiness and unhappiness. So if you're listening and you have a partner, you know that if you're partnered with someone, you are now in a three-legged race in life- (laughs) That everything you do, from where do I live, what's my job, what color are we gonna paint the living room, where are we gonna go on vacation, that you're now joined with another person on that. And if your relationship is going well, you're doing well, you're feeling well, and if your relationship isn't going well, you're not doing well, you're not feeling well. And, you know, it's a lot easier to change your job than it is to change your spouse. And, you know, there's a lot of different ways to create a family, but most 20-somethings I know would eventually like to find their person, and they generally want to try to find that person one time and stick with it. And, um, I hope they do.
- MRMel Robbins
You've also said, Dr. J., that dating apps are not the problem. So what do you think is wrong about the way the average person, particularly in their 20s, thinks about dating?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Uh, you know, I think a lot of people are using dating apps similarly to how they'll, they're using job boards, in that people say, "I'm looking so hard for a job. I am on job boards 20 or 30 hours a week." And so I would like that person to maybe take a more targeted, intentional approach to looking for a job, by reaching out to weak ties or, you know, we could talk about that in a minute. But similarly to dating, I'll say, "Are you doing anything about your love life? You said you were lonely. You said you wanted someone." I am. I am on the apps 5, 10, 15 hours a week. I'm on, I'm having conversations, I'm sending messages. And I feel like people are using apps to say, "Look, I'm doing something." I would rather see that person spend three to five hours a week going out, doing something they enjoy, hanging out with people that they like, uh, getting involved in a cause that they believe in, and kind of be a little bit more targeted and intentional rather than, "Oh, I'm s, I'm scrolling, I'm surfing, I'm swiping, I'm on it." Um, but, because I don't, it's often not that productive.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, it's true. It's a way to, like, say, "I'm doing it."
- MJDr. Meg Jay
"I'm doing it," right, right.
- MRMel Robbins
It's sort of like, you know in college where you could go to a particular place in the library to s, be social but say you're studying?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
(laughs) Or nap, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Versus you go to a different spot when you actually need to get the studying done?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Right, right. Exactly. And, you know, I definitely have had many, uh, clients, many 20-somethings who have found their person on dating apps, but they tend to be approaching it in an intentional way, not, you know, "I'm surfing, I'm scrolling, I'm swiping and messaging." They tend to sort of know what they want, and they're not afraid to go out there and look for it or ask for it, whether that's in person or, or on an app.
- MRMel Robbins
I wanna read, uh, from page 207 in your best-selling book, The Defining Decade. "Being single while you're young may be glorified in the press, but staying single across the 20s does not typically feel good. A study that tracked men and women from their early 20s to their later 20s found that of those who remained single, who dated or hooked up but avoided commitment, 80% were dissatisfied with their dating lives, and only 10% didn't wish they had a partner." So 90% of people wished they had a partner. "Being chronically uncoupled may be especially detrimental to men, as those who remained single throughout their 20s experienced a significant dip in their self-esteem near 30." Why, what, what does this passage tell you, Dr. J?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That dating is important and scary. So I, I think a lot of people postpone dating because, going back to that uncertainty, it's scary, it's anxiety-provoking, it's very uncertain, and it's not mandatory. So most 20-somethings have got to get a job. They have got to get a roof over their heads. They've gotta buy groceries. But dating, they can sort of keep kicking the can down the road. And so a lot of people, young men especially, will say, "Well, I'm gonna get work totally figured out, and then I'm gonna start thinking about dating." Um, life is really rarely that linear, and, you know, work doesn't get, quote, "totally figured out" until easily 30s. Um, and if, I think if you start looking for a partner and haven't had any experience in that in your 20s, you've really lost opportunities to learn something about what kind of relationships work for me, what kind of relationships don't. You know, we talked about nine jobs by the age of 35. I don't know if you'll have nine different relationships, but you'll probably have more than one or, uh, you know, likely have more than one, and so really to use them in the same way, of what works, what doesn't, what am I learning? And when you see something isn't working, it's time to move on.
- MRMel Robbins
Dr. J., you've also said that when you pick your partner, you're picking your new family. Why is that mindset so important?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
This is such an important reframe. So-We grow up hearing the saying, "You can't pick your family, but you can pick your friends." You, you've heard that?
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah, of course.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Everybody grows up...
- MRMel Robbins
Your friends are the family you choose, right?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Right. Right, um, so everybody sort of grows up hearing that. But then when you're in your 20s and beyond, suddenly you do pick your pan- family, when you partner with someone and create a family of your own. So to realize-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- 43:19 – 48:48
How to Stop Believing You’re Unlovable
- MJDr. Meg Jay
for yourself.
- MRMel Robbins
How do you create a happy family if you grew up in a family that wasn't happy?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Oftentimes, people who grow up with adversity are the most motivated to have happy families, the most clear-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
... on how important this is and what they want and what they don't want. And so, and oftentimes, a bi- a really powerful piece of work with a 20-something is to get, shift them from, "You get to do it differently. You actually know what's really important, what to be careful about." Some of the best parents and partners that I have worked with or have seen came from unhappy families because they're so motivated to do this right and to do it right for their kids, which is amazing.
- MRMel Robbins
So you also talk about how something called perceived desirability affects how successful you are romantically. What exactly is perceived desirability and how does it impact dating and your love life?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Yeah, yeah. So perceived des- desirability, that's a mouthful, but it- it's really how much you think people want you.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Uh, like how wanted you feel like you are. This is actually a bigger predictor of self-esteem in relationships than s- like career success or popularity or attractiveness. It's how much you think people want you. Th- the- the tough part is, a 20-something or 20-year-old will come in my office and they'll say, "Nobody's ever wanted me before. No one ever will want me." So their j- their, their perceived desirability is based on what happened with the knuckleheads in high school.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
So, they're going off some scant and bad data, and then they take that data into college or into their 20s, and they spend 10 years making dating and mating decisions based on whether the boys in high school or the people in college wanted to be with them or not. So, uh, a big part of my work, uh, with young adults, or if you're listening in your 20s, you know, a, a big course correct for you can be shifting those conversations that you're having in your head about that data about your perceived desirability.
- MRMel Robbins
How do you do that? I'll, I'm gonna give you some of the things that I've heard 20-somethings say. "People don't find me attractive. When I go out to the bar, everybody's interested in my friends. Nobody comes up to me. Nobody wants to date me. People will hook up with me, but nobody ever wants a relationship. Everybody else has a boyfriend or a girlfriend. Why can't I find somebody?" How do you change that story that you tell yourself?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Yeah. So most of those comments, uh, what you just described, tho- that's, it's kind of black and white thinking or-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
... you know, what we call catastrophic thinking. So when people are uncertain, they tend to catastrophize. They have, you know, worst-case scenario. A lot of what if-ing. "What if no one ever wants me? What if no one ever chooses me? What if no one thinks I'm attractive?" So, I try to shift people from what if to what else. What else could you be saying about the situation or what else could you be saying about yourself? So, you haven't met anyone that's right for you yet, or, "Okay, the people at this bar preferred your friend, but maybe in a different setting, they might be more interested in you." What else can you be telling yourself besides, "It's hopeless, you're powerless, there's nothing that you can do"? Because the, the great, the really wonderful thing about finding a partner, you just need o- one good one. You just need-
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs) .
- MJDr. Meg Jay
... one match. It's not like college where you need to get an A or a B in the mor- majority of your classes in order to get a degree. Uh, I mean, imagine if you went to college and every class you took, you could fail or get a D and you just had to get an A or a B in one and you'd be good. And it's, actually that's kinda what dating is like, that y- you can have a lot of relationships that don't work out, a lot of people who don't wanna be with you. You just need one person, uh, you know, one right-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
... person for you to want to be with you. So y- you can't really take all those data points and apply them to yourself.
- MRMel Robbins
I love the, the strategy of going from what if to what else.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
I have another, uh, question from somebody. This one's from Hannah. "Dr. J, I'm 27 and single, and honestly, I'm starting to get scared. It feels like everyone I'm into doesn't want to settle down, and the ones who do, I'm just not into. I've spent years trying to be the cool girl. Not pushing for commitment, not asking for too much, but now I'm here, still alone, and it feels like I have zero prospects. I just keep thinking, what if no one I want ever wants the same things as me? And what if by the time they do, it's too late for the life I've always pictured for myself?" Is this a common experience?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Very co- so common that in the updated version of The Defining Decade, I added a chapter called 29 Conversations. And the 29 conversations are presumably 29 conversations you would have with a potential partner of, "Hey, do you want, do you, as a concept, do you want to get married? How, what about religion in your life? What about money? What about kids? What about work while with kids?" All that. But really, the most important person to have those 29 conversations with is yourself-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
... before you start dating or as you're dating so that you're clear on what you're looking for as you're looking, that a lot of young adults-... go into relationships saying, "Who wants me? Who wants me?"
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Rather than, "Well, what is it that
- 48:48 – 1:03:32
Are You Sliding Into a Relationship You’ll Regret?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
I want?" And, and if you go in without thinking, it's like going into a grocery store hungry, that you're hungry but you don't know what you're looking for, and suddenly you're grabbing this and you're grabbing that without really thinking about, "What did I come in here for?" Um, so I would tell Hannah that we need to slow down for a minute and do the 29 conversations and figure out, what is it she's even looking for?
- MRMel Robbins
I love that. And the questions, and this is why I love this book so much, are so helpful. They're on page 149 of The Defining Decade, and here are some of the ones, just so that you can hear them, because I think, you, you know, it, it is a cool exercise to do this with someone else.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
But actually getting your own answers straight-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
First, absolutely.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
Do I make you a better person? Are you religious? How are we gonna manage our money? Do you wanna have kids? What do you think of our sex life? What are my political beliefs? What kind of parent do I wanna be? How traditional are you when it comes to gender roles? How do you like to keep a house? How will we keep our relationship alive over the long run? What does your future look like? Why do you like me? I mean, even asking that of yourself, like, "Why do I like myself?"
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And if your answer is, "I really don't," then start-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Start there.
- MRMel Robbins
... there.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
How important is travel to you? How do you spend your free time? Have you ever cheated on a partner? If so, when and why? Do you think it's possible you would cheat on me? Uh, I think these questions are really important. What makes you feel loved? What do you need after a tough day? Wow. This is so cool. You know, one of the things that you talk about that is very dangerous when it comes to relationships in your 20s is sliding-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... into a relationship. Can you describe what that means when you are sliding into a relationship?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm. Yeah, this is a concept, uh, Scott Stanley, University of Denver, it's called sliding, not deciding, and it's when we sort of slide into a situation without, um, being intentional, without really actively deciding to move from A to B or from B to C. And so, it, it's very similar to underemployment, which we were talking about, which can be sticky. You can slide into underemployment and then get stuck there. The same thing with romantic relationships. You can sort of slide in to dating down. So it's like, "Well, we were going out a lot, spending all the time, our time together, sleeping over at each other's places, so we just decided to move in together," and, "Well, we were living together and everybody started getting married, and so I guess we're probably gonna have to do that next." That's what sliding sounds like (laughs) . Deciding sounds really differently, which is, "Hey, I've been going out with this person for a while. Do we or don't we wanna take it to the next level and move in together, and should we talk about that and what that means to two different people and what are our intentions there? Hey, we've been living together. How's this going or not going, and do we wanna take it to the next level again or do we wanna say what you see is what you get and this isn't working?"
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
So, um, you know, it, it's very similar to sort of sliding into bad jobs. We can slide into bad relationships. And it's easier to slide in than it is to slide out, um, that you can slide into a bad relationship. You're living together. Three years go by. You've got a lease, you've got a couch, you've got a dog. Everybody seems to have a partner, and it can be hard to say, "Okay, I'm gonna have to get out of this."
- MRMel Robbins
You know, I read in your book that this sliding into a relationship where you kind of spend time together, so you slide into moving together, then you're living together, and then you slide into getting engaged, and then you get engaged and you slide into getting married, that that represents a large number of couples that you see in their 30s and 40s who get divorced.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes, that people often say, "I didn't, I wasn't thoughtful. I didn't listen to myself," so the person out there who's listening, what I have to say to you, which is, do the gut check. Um, ask yourself, "What if I'm still in this situation five years from now? What if I'm still in this relationship five years from now?" If, as I ask that question, what are the feelings that you're having? And if that feeling is, "Oh my gosh, no," then I really have to ask why you're still doing it now and how much longer you're going to spend on this. People know when they're not happy in a relationship. I don't have a magical power to see that when they don't. The, the person I'm sitting across the room from, you, who's listening, you know if the gut check feels bad, and only you can act on it.
- MRMel Robbins
How do you know, though, if you're settling? Because if y- your 20s are a defining decade with a steep learning curve, it's also gonna be full of starts and firsts and worsts-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... and growth, and there's a big difference between you being compatible with somebody versus somebody just needing to learn some life skills.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm. Right (laughs) .
- MRMel Robbins
You know, I, I, I often say to my daughters in particular, "Look, you can look at your father right now and idolize him. That is not the person I married or I met when he was 26 years old."
- MJDr. Meg Jay
(laughs) Right. Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
He was not a good cook.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
He was not particularly clean.
- 1:03:32 – 1:09:04
Social Anxiety versus Uncertainty
- MJDr. Meg Jay
people are having kids later, and I also, I mean, I had my kids in my 30s, so, um, been there, done that. But as we think about how far out can I push this? Maybe it could be 40, maybe it could be 42. I think the thing to understand is that having, having a baby is not the end, it's the beginning.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
And I think what you maybe don't understand until you have kids is, hey, now that I have kids, I actually wanna be around for them as long as possible. And so waiting to have kids until the last possible minute is not necessarily the win-win that we make it out to be.
- MRMel Robbins
I love that, that having kids is a beginning. It's not the end of something, it's the beginning of something. That's really empowering.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Right. And for many people, it's the beginning of, you know, one of the most meaningful, most powerful, most important parts of life-
- MRMel Robbins
But-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
... and we want it to go on as long as possible.
- MRMel Robbins
... but for a lot of women, in particular, you think, "Well, this is the ending of my career ascension, this is the end of ambition, this is the end of-"
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Oh, uh-
- MRMel Robbins
... a lot of it.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
... I will tell you, Mel, I'd be interested in your perspective. I was more productive, more ambitious, and more successful after I had kids because I was more pressed for time and because it was more important to me to succeed than when I was a single person, I was fine, you know, with my mac and cheese and my ramen noodles and whatever. (laughs) But once I had kids, I was pressed for time, I was ambitious, I had purpose, I had meaning. My career exploded after I had kids.
- MRMel Robbins
That was my experience, too.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
Didn't make it easy.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
No. No, no, yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
But 100%-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... made me more ambitious, gave me a sense of purpose, and the time crunch thing-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
... also does make you more productive.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Let's talk about social anxiety-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Okay.
- MRMel Robbins
... because you write a lot about it, and I see a lot of kids... by kids, I see a lot of people in their 20s talking about how they have social anxiety. What is social anxiety? What is a normal amount of angst? When do you know it's a problem?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
I'd love to just hear you kind of talk about what that concept is-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Yeah, yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... and if you see it as a big issue for people in their 20s.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Um, yes and no. So social anxiety is the most commonly endorsed or most common mental health complaint. There's actually a questionnaire that's given to, uh, students in student health centers all over the country and has a bunch of questions on it, obviously, and the most endorsed question is, "I'm worried other people don't like me."
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- 1:09:04 – 1:20:01
The Most Important Skill You Need in Life
- MJDr. Meg Jay
that you need to function at work, to make new friends in a big city. You're not all sitting in a classroom together anymore. You're really going to develop a lot of new skills. That's where the social confidence is gonna come from. Um, it's gonna take a minute.
- MRMel Robbins
You actually write about that, um, it's on page 46 in your best-selling book, The Twenty Something Treatment, and you're talking about medication, and you're talking about the fact that a lot of the psychoactic, -active drugs, which, you know, many people do have a clinical need to be on.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Sure.
- MRMel Robbins
You're not saying that it's not important if you're working with a licensed medical, you know, expert-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Provider, sure.
- MRMel Robbins
... provider. And sometimes those prescriptions help you access the therapy.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
So, you're saying they may pri- provide relief in the short run, and while some patients may fare well on them in the long run, research suggests they may worsen long-run outcomes for most others. One reason for this is that medications alone don't teach us anything. Maybe they take the edge off or turn the volume down on unwanted thoughts or feelings, but they don't help us learn how to handle unwanted thoughts or feelings, or prevent them in the first place. Then, once the medication is removed, our ability to cope or to manage our lives may be no better than it was before. And what I've seen, over and over again, it actually becomes worse-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... because they weren't building the skills. And so, what are some of the skills that 20-somethings need to focus on building-
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... to be a functioning adult that grows throughout your lifetime and lives a good life? What are those important skills that you can't learn by reading a book in college?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Right. You know, I would say one that cuts across work, love, friends, life, is having difficult conversations. Having conversations with new people that, not-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Not the, the trusted few that you already know-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
... like you. So, in the work, in terms of work, talking to weak ties. This is how we learn about new jobs, learn about new opportunities. This, talking to new people when you've moved to a new town and you sign up for the walking club or the running club, this is how you make new friends. This is how you talk to someone you think you might like in a bar or at a conference, that, that being willing to talk to people that you don't already feel comfortable with, and maybe they're different or older or in positions of power or just new. That that is the single most important skill, because it branches out, i- it gets you out into all those areas.
- MRMel Robbins
We've talked a lot about the reality of the defining decade in your 20s, and the just number of reasons why it is a decade of a lot of uncertainty, a lot of change, a lot of opportunity. But one of the things that you wrote about that caught my attention in The Twenty Something Treatment is hope, and how hope is the biggest predictor of future happiness. But Dr. J, what gives you hope? I mean, what do you see in the 20-somethings that you work with, even the ones that are really, really struggling, that makes you firmly believe and know that everything is going to turn out okay, even if they feel lost today?
- MJDr. Meg Jay
This is what I love about working with 20-somethings, is that I, I really have development on my side. The data is on my side. That, so, yes, I mentioned 20 is th- or, the low point of life, sorry, low, mental health, low point, uh, and low points in lots of ways. But all the data show life gets better across the 30s, across the 40s, across the 50s. So, I have that confidence and that belief. And positive expectations actually go a long way in terms of giving people belief and hope. So, you know, whether it's a college student who comes into my office, or a 25-year-old, or the people we've talked about, or you who's listening, when people come into my office, I assume that they're going to grow and change in a positive direction. And I feel very confident that I can help them do that, or they can do that. You can do that from listening to a podcast, reading a book. Um, and-... one of the best parts of my job is that every day I hear from students, clients, readers who say, "Oh my gosh, it's been five years and this has happened." I get save the dates all the time, and baby announcements and new job announcements. And so, um, you know, uh, I have that belief that things are going to work out, can work out, and I think that helps people. I know that helps people. It's one of the best predictors of mental h- positive mental health.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, what I've really learned from our conversation today is, first of all, I have a much greater level of compassion, and a much greater and deeper understanding of the drivers, based on the data that you shared, of why exactly this decade can be so fraught with uncertainty and an emotional roller coaster. And I also see the mistakes I've made of just assuming that they knew exactly what to do, t- they, assuming they knew what the problem was in the first place, assuming that the thing to do was obvious, and also offering reassurance 'cause I thought, propping them up, "Oh, it's gonna work out. You'll be fine. You got plenty of time." And it's done the opposite. And what I've learned now is that it's normal to feel all these things. They're very valid reasons to understand that this is exactly how you should feel. You're doing your 20s correctly if you have these moments.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And that helping somebody move from feeling uncertain to solving the problems, whether the problems are in work, or problems are in the right next step, or problems are in how can I earn money now, or problems are how can I build some skills, or problems are how can I start to create some experiences f- for myself that help me figure out what direction to move in in my career, that these are all things you can help somebody do.
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And that's really, really encouraging. You know, I'd love to have you speak to the person who's listening who's thinking, "Oh my God, I am not in my 20s. I blew it."
- MJDr. Meg Jay
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
"I did not-"
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Did a lot of this.
- MRMel Robbins
You're like, "Ah ha ha, Dr. J."
- MJDr. Meg Jay
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
"Now I'm really screwed 'cause I'm not in the career I want. I'm not where I want to be."
Episode duration: 1:20:01
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