World Leading Psychologist: How to Master Your Emotions & Deal With Negative People

1. 0:00 – 3:39

   Intro

   1. MRMel Robbins0:00

      So, is it just me, Dr. David, or- or is everybody a little bit more uneasy or emotional these days?

   2. SDDr. Susan David0:07

      Absolutely. The world has been changing so quickly, and we as human beings, we're not taught in school the science of how to navigate emotions effectively, and so we come to a changing world that feels out of control, and we then are more likely to feel out of control as well. There is a huge increase in people's experiences of depression, anxiety, burnout, um, lashing out at others. Like, this is a real phenomenon.

   3. MRMel Robbins0:37

      What are the specific things that you can say to somebody who is having trouble with their life or their emotions?

   4. SDDr. Susan David0:44

      The purpose of our emotions is not to get us all hooked or get us all frazzled, or... The purpose of our emotions is to-

   5. MRMel Robbins0:57

      I am so excited to talk to you today, because today, I got a topic that I've been thinking about for a while. Have you noticed that people seem way more emotional right now, like fragile, and even in some cases unhinged? And by the way, I would include myself in that description. I mean, just the other day, I was standing in line at the grocery store, and I just started feeling so impatient with how long it was taking. It's not like I had to be somewhere. I went from feeling perfectly fine to all of a sudden I'm rocking back and forth, I'm looking at my phone, and then I'm looking at my phone again, and I'm just looking around, and then I'm staring at the person in front of me and shooting them that kind of like, "Come on, come on, look," as she's taking one potato and putting it on the conveyor belt, and then reaching in, grabbing another potato and putting it on the convey- And look, I'm normally a really chill person, but sometimes I wonder, have the last four years and the pandemic, has it created so many unexpected detours and changes in your life that there's just all of this emotional baggage that's built up for each and every one of us, and now all of a sudden you're getting derailed by them as you're standing in line at the grocery store? I mean, it's one thing to wear your emotions on your sleeve, but there are some days that I'm like, "Am I feeling more emotional?" I wish I could be better at responding to my emotions. I'm sure you do too, especially... You want to know the situations where I really wish I had more control over how I'm feeling? It's in those situations where somebody else is making me feel overwhelmed. You know, like when somebody erupts at you because they're frustrated, or do you have somebody in your life that the second that they're mad or upset about something, they give you the silent treatment or make you feel guilty, or maybe they apologize all the time. "I'm really sorry. I was tired, I was frustrated, I didn't mean to act like that." But it doesn't change how controlling or stubborn or volatile they act, and it doesn't change the very real emotions that you now deal with. And it's easy when it's your sister, because you can turn to your sister and be like, "Will you stop, like, playing the victim?" But you can't turn to the supervisor of the floor in your nursing department or the principal of the school that you work in and say those things. So today, I'm so excited for both of us, because you and I are getting a master coaching session on how to understand your emotions and deal with people who cannot tolerate their own. So without further ado, please let's give a warm welcome to Dr. Susan David.

   6. SDDr. Susan David3:34

      Thank you. I'm so delighted to be here today.

   7. MRMel Robbins3:36

      I am so excited to talk to you.

   8. SDDr. Susan David3:38

      Let's do it.

2. 3:39 – 6:58

   Are you feeling more emotional recently? This might be why…

   1. SDDr. Susan David3:39

   2. MRMel Robbins3:39

      So, is it just me, Dr. David, or- or is everybody a little bit more kind of uneasy or emotional these days?

   3. SDDr. Susan David3:47

      Absolutely. Someone described this as the word "untethered." And to me, that's often what it feels like, that there feels like there is an untethering, and it's not an untethering that's a general untethering. It's, I think, often an untethering from the self.

   4. MRMel Robbins4:04

      Ah.

   5. SDDr. Susan David4:04

      And really what I mean by this is, the world has been changing so quickly. There's a pandemic you mentioned earlier, there's been a war. There's- there's so much that's going on.

   6. MRMel Robbins4:14

      Mm.

   7. SDDr. Susan David4:15

      And we as human beings, we're not taught in school the science of how to navigate emotions effectively. We're not taught this in the workplace. And so we come to a changing world that feels out of control, and we then are more likely to feel out of control as well. And so just from the basic research, we know that there is a huge increase in people's experiences of depression, anxiety, burnout, um, lashing out at others. Like, this is- this is real. This is not just you in your grocery store. This is a real phenomenon. And I think it's a tragedy that we don't speak to these inner skills more.

   8. MRMel Robbins4:56

      I love that you use the word "untethered" because I know for me personally, when I all of a sudden have an emotional outburst, like even standing in line at the grocery store, and I feel this wave of, "I'm frustrated, I'm impatient, I'm judgy," and then I start to feel judgy of myself-

   9. SDDr. Susan David5:14

      Mm-hmm.

   10. MRMel Robbins5:14

       ... and mad at myself for being that way. Whenever I snap at my kids because I've had a stressful day at work, which is not an excuse to snap at somebody else-

   11. SDDr. Susan David5:22

       Yeah.

   12. MRMel Robbins5:22

       ... I feel bad. And I really resonate with this idea that when you cannot navigate the inner world, your emotions, your feelings, you do feel disconnected from yourself.

   13. SDDr. Susan David5:37

       You're feeling disconnected because you disconnected from your values. And also there's, we- we often talk about this word "hustle," and we talk about hustle in relation to work, in relation to the external world. But a lot of what we do is we hustle with ourselves. Should I feel this? Am I allowed to feel it? Is this okay? You know, i- if I'm accepting of myself, does this mean that I'm not allowed to think or want bigger things? Like, we have this hustle with ourselves. And the more we hustle with ourselves, the less we are able to be connected with our values, who we want to be, grounded. And I often think of this metaphor, Mel, of- of gymnast. So if we think of a gymnast, a gymnast is...... agile. A gymnast is able to respond to what's going on in the external world-

   14. MRMel Robbins6:23

       Mm.

   15. SDDr. Susan David6:24

       ... to the crowd that's clapping or the loud music that doesn't play exactly as she wants. But what keeps the gymnast grounded is the strong inner core. It's this core that allows us to be able to respond to the world effectively. And so much of my work is focused on how to develop this inner core so that we can navigate what's going on in the outer world with a greater level of being centered and connected and breathing in ourselves.

   16. MRMel Robbins6:55

       That sounds amazing.

3. 6:58 – 10:53

   Dr. David shares an experience where her emotions got the best of her.

   1. MRMel Robbins6:58

      Can you give me an example, Dr. David, from your own life where you let your emotions get the best of you, you didn't have that solid core that you're talking about?

   2. SDDr. Susan David7:10

      A couple of years ago, I was writing a book, not Emotional Agility, another book. And I had worked long and hard on this book.

   3. MRMel Robbins7:22

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SDDr. Susan David7:23

      And I went to a conference where a professor, far more powerful, famous than I will ever be, uh, asked me what I was working on and I told him. Okay? And I'm not gonna say who he was, but essentially this professor betrayed my trust, and six months later I was working in Starbucks and I got a text from this professor, or a voice mes- message actually, saying, "I hope you don't mind if we use your concept as the title for my book."

   5. MRMel Robbins7:55

      What?

   6. SDDr. Susan David7:55

      Okay? So, okay, I was like, "Mind? Of course I mind." Okay? "Of course I mind." And I'm giving you this example because I think it's a real life example of how not to do it.

   7. MRMel Robbins8:06

      Okay.

   8. SDDr. Susan David8:06

      Okay? So I was outraged, and the trapdoor to my heart opened when I realized that this professor's question was not a question. The voice w- the, the book was available that day for pre-sell on Amazon. So I did what many of us would do in the situation. I called my husband to bitch. Okay?

   9. MRMel Robbins8:27

      (laughs)

   10. SDDr. Susan David8:28

       And (laughs) , and my husband was... He's a physician, and he had a patient lying on the table waiting for an emergency procedure, and he answered the call like this, "Susie, can't speak now. Got a patient on the table waiting for an emergency procedure." Clock. Okay. So now what do we do? We're like, "The one time, the one time I needed him, he's unavailable." You know, "The one time when his call back comes in three days, I'm not gonna take it. Now I'm gonna be..." This is, this is reactive.

   11. MRMel Robbins8:58

       Yes.

   12. SDDr. Susan David8:58

       This is emotional immaturity.

   13. MRMel Robbins9:00

       I wanna highlight that absolutely everything that you felt, I felt as you were telling that story.

   14. SDDr. Susan David9:07

       (laughs)

   15. MRMel Robbins9:08

       I felt a deep sense of injustice.

   16. SDDr. Susan David9:10

       Yeah.

   17. MRMel Robbins9:10

       And I'm the kind of person that when I get triggered like that, I don't call my husband, I send like (lips droning) texts and (lips droning) texts and (lips droning) texts. I like text vomit at him. And as you're listening, I know you're nodding because you're like, "Oh, I do that too. I do that too." But the problem with that is that while the texting or the frantic phone call may help you relieve the pressure of the emotion of the moment, it didn't actually help you solve the problem. And I can see how when your emotions start swirling or life starts swirling around you, you lose that centering, and that's why you become super reactive. And so it's super helpful to think about the fact that you could actually teach yourself this skill of a solid emotional core that allows you to stay grounded and in control. I love that. And I think you're highlighting something really important, which is the superpower that you're talking about is being able to experience the wave of anger, hatred, injustice...

   18. SDDr. Susan David10:19

       Yep.

   19. MRMel Robbins10:20

       ... sadness, feeling defeated, feeling powerless, feeling small, feeling like you're robbed in one instance, to validate it, to notice it, and then where the opportunity is, is to then strengthen your connection to yourself and to the emotions that you feel so that no matter who is freaking out around you or what you're going through in your life, that you are able to find a sense of calm to navigate it.

   20. SDDr. Susan David10:52

       Yes.

4. 10:53 – 17:34

   Use the one tool to ground yourself and regulate your emotions.

   1. SDDr. Susan David10:53

      These skills are powerful, they are science-based, and they are practical. So, wherever people are right now, whether you rushing around, whether you on your walk, whatever you're doing, I'll just give you one example of what this looks like.

   2. MRMel Robbins11:10

      Yeah.

   3. SDDr. Susan David11:10

      So when we're rushing around, often what we've done is we've lost a sense of our own connectedness. We are tactile human beings, and over the past couple of years, we've become more and more disconnected. We're much more on our phones. We had social distancing. There was all of this that went on that disconnected us. And there is something so powerful and so grounding in just putting your hands on your heart and saying, "It's hard to human right now. It's hard to be worrying about the lunchbox and getting my kids to school, and it's hard to human right now." So that is a skill in compassion, and obviously the work goes much deeper and much broader. But this is a powerful way of being with ourselves, which is completely distinct from, "Am I allowed to feel that?" "Well, I should be grateful." You know, the stuff that we are often taught to do or what that, w- what social media would tell us to do.

   4. MRMel Robbins12:06

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SDDr. Susan David12:07

      So when we've got doctors who are going into patients' rooms to give bad news, we remind them of their feet on the ground and we will often ask them, and if you watching on YouTube or if you even just listening to this, I've got my hands over my chest. So yeah, these skills are powerful and they are...... they are absolutely skills that we can develop.

   6. MRMel Robbins12:29

      Well, I can see in the scenario that you just gave, because you do do so much consulting and teaching and advising in, uh, the corporate space, in the healthcare space, and I can see how if you're somebody working in the healthcare field and you're about to walk into a treatment room and you know that you've got bad news to deliver, that the s- the fact that you're a human being means you're gonna feel something about-

   7. SDDr. Susan David12:59

      Yes.

   8. MRMel Robbins12:59

      ... what's about to happen. And you're saying that simply reminding a nurse, a doctor, a healthcare professor to take, or professional, to take a breath, feet on the floor, arms across the body, it's hard to be human right now, that even just that grounding moment is something that helps you really tolerate the emotion? Or, like, maybe you should just talk a little bit about what are emotions-

   9. SDDr. Susan David13:29

      Yeah.

   10. MRMel Robbins13:30

       ... and what purpose do they serve, so that as everybody's listening, they kind of understand what you're talking about when you say feeling an emotion.

   11. SDDr. Susan David13:40

       Uh, the purpose of our emotions is not to get us all hooked or get us all frazzled or... The purpose of our emotions is to help us to adapt to the world around us. Like, that is the purpose of our emotions.

   12. MRMel Robbins13:58

       Hmm.

   13. SDDr. Susan David13:58

       So our emotions have evolved to help us to adapt and survive. So, what does this mean from the perspective of, like, how we connect with ourselves?

   14. MRMel Robbins14:11

       Yes.

   15. SDDr. Susan David14:12

       What this means is that a lot of the language that we have around emotions has actually not been from this functional perspective. It hasn't been from the perspective that actually emotions are human and healthy and normal and beautiful. Instead, what we have is this idea that emotions are weak, emotions are feminine, emotions are bad. You know, that's the history that we come with when we think about emotions. And so when we see emotions in that way, we start this hustle with, "Well, if I'm feeling anything other than a so-called positive emotion-"

   16. MRMel Robbins14:55

       Right.

   17. SDDr. Susan David14:56

       "... then it's bad." We have, every day, thoughts. A thought might be, "I'm not good enough. I'm a fraud."

   18. MRMel Robbins15:04

       Mm-hmm.

   19. SDDr. Susan David15:05

       We have emotions. We have emotions of anger, fear, grief, all of these experiences that we have. We have stories. Some of our stories were written on our mental chalkboards when we were five years old, you know, when we were this high, stories about whether we're good enough, whether we deserve to be loved. And the pop psychology way of viewing these is that they're good or bad, positive or negative.

   20. MRMel Robbins15:34

       Mm.

   21. SDDr. Susan David15:34

       In other words, if you have a thought that's negative, put it aside. It doesn't belong. Think about something positive.

   22. MRMel Robbins15:41

       Right.

   23. SDDr. Susan David15:42

       What my work does is it actually says, "These thoughts, emotions, and stories are normal. They are helping you to understand the world, to see what you need to pay attention to, to adapt to the world. So these are normal. We don't need to get into a hustle with ourselves as to whether we should or shouldn't be allowed to think or feel a particular thing. These are normal. These are beautiful. These are human." If we turn against that and say, "I shouldn't think this," or, "I shouldn't be allowed to feel that," we unsee ourselves. Now, emotions are data.

   24. MRMel Robbins16:22

       Right.

   25. SDDr. Susan David16:22

       Emotions are data. They're not directives. In other words, it doesn't mean because I feel something now I need to act out, and now I've got to, like, tell everyone how I feel, because there is a difference between feeling our emotions with compassion, with curiosity, and being able to be grounded in them, and then th- that allows us the space, the distance from the emotion. Because now we're not hustling to be able to think about, "Who do I want to be? Who do I want to be in this relationship? How do I want to come to this circumstance?" so that we come into the world not in a way that's reactive, but rather come into the world in a way that is clear-sighted and centered within the self.

   26. MRMel Robbins17:15

       That was really interesting. So, let's talk about how you do this in real life. And I've got a ton of questions from our global audience. When they heard that you were coming on, Dr. David, we've got a ton of questions about how you manage your own emotions, particularly in situations where other people are triggering you. This particular

5. 17:34 – 24:16

   Dr. David answers listener questions about how to manage emotions.

   1. MRMel Robbins17:34

      question comes from Tina. So Tina writes that her son is struggling with anxiety and depression, and she wants to know, "Dr. David, how do I separate my emotions from my son's when he's so low? I try so hard not to, but I find things such a struggle when he feels low. And when he's okay, I'm okay. I just don't even know where to start." And it's not just kids. This is for your partners, or if your parents are struggling. I think we all want to know how to support somebody but not get sucked into their emotions. So how do you do that, Dr. David?

   2. SDDr. Susan David18:07

      Well, I mean, anyone who's parented, anyone who's looked after elderly parents, anyone who's been in relationship with anyone, uh, recognizes some of the truth that is said, which is, you know, as a parent, for example, you only tend to be as happy as your most unhappy child.

   3. MRMel Robbins18:28

      Yeah.

   4. SDDr. Susan David18:28

      Because, of course, when we see people in pain...... it evokes pain in us. We are social creatures. We, of course, are going to experience, uh, pain, grief, agony when we see someone else in pain. So, at the same time, what happens when we get stuck in my experience of what that other person is experiencing, we become both unable to manage our own health and wellbeing, but also we can't really be functional, effective parents-

   5. MRMel Robbins19:10

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SDDr. Susan David19:10

      ... because we are now r- reactive within the pain that is created in that world. So, there are a couple of things that I would say. Um, firstly, if we think about how to think about children's emotions, because that's probably a really good place to start, we can then start thinking about our own. So, children's emotions. Often as a parent, it becomes really tempting, when we see our children in pain, to rush in and, and fix. I remember, Mel, years ago, me taking my son to the, uh, pediatrician. He had just been born and I remember going and, and, um, my son was goo-goo and gaga and smiling and happy, and I handed him over to the pediatrician for his shots, and he started to scream. He started to be outraged and he was crying and I jumped in and I said to him, "It's okay. It's okay. It's okay." And the nurse so kindly, so empathetically said to me, "Susie, it's not okay. Your child is in pain, okay? It's not okay. Your child is in pain. It will be okay, but your child is in pain."

   7. MRMel Robbins20:27

      Hmm.

   8. SDDr. Susan David20:28

      And I was like, "I've got a flipping PhD in this stuff-

   9. MRMel Robbins20:31

      (laughs)

   10. SDDr. Susan David20:31

       ... and I did the one thing that you're not allowed to do, which is invalidate it." So, the, the point that I make here is, one of the first things we often try to do with others is we try to control what emotion we think they should or shouldn't be allowed to feel. And often, we do it...

   11. MRMel Robbins20:51

       (laughs)

   12. SDDr. Susan David20:51

       I can see it's resonating. I can see it's connecting. Often we do it with good intention.

   13. MRMel Robbins20:56

       Mm-hmm.

   14. SDDr. Susan David20:56

       Okay? We do it with good intention. Now, what does that teach our child? What it teaches our child is what we call display rules. Display rules are the implicit rules that we often have of, what emotion is it okay for me to feel in my family? Or what am I allowed to experience? So, how does this impact on the child? What it basically does is, a display rule, if every time a child comes home and is upset, you say to the child, "Oh, you're not allowed to be upset," and you might not be saying that overtly, but you might be signaling that, what that's saying to the child is, "Sadness has no place here."

   15. MRMel Robbins21:39

       Hmm.

   16. SDDr. Susan David21:39

       Okay? I need to turn away from myself because sadness is not allowed in this family, or anger isn't allowed, or emotions aren't allowed. So now, what is the longer-term impact of that? Well, how do we become good at regulating our emotions? We become good at regulating our emotions when we say, "Hey, this is what sadness feels like," and you practice feeling sad, and you practice the sadness that I felt 24 hours ago, I did A, I did B, I did C, now I no longer feel sad. By allowing our children to feel all of their emotions, we're not just allowing them to feel all of their emotions, we're actually doing the core work of parenting, which is helping our children to be with discomfort, helping our children to recognize and be with uncomfortable emotions. And so, I think one of the most powerful ways for Tina, and for every single person listening, is any emotion we experience, rather than judging that emotion as, "That's positive, that's negative, that's wrong, that's right," it's hard to human. And so, for Tina, creating a little bit of space where she sees that experience in herself with compassion is very powerful, because now it's already moving you into the space of the self, where you're not in this vortex of both of you struggling. You now are in with yourself. So, that is firstly, a very important skill. Secondly is, often when people experience tough emotions, we start getting hooked by the emotion and there's no space for anything else. So, you know, "I'm angry and I'm feeling overwhelmed and there's all this stuff going on for me," and there's no space in that for the wisdom that I believe every single one of us has. We all have wisdom. We all, in the peace of night when we are lying in bed and it's just us, there's this part of ourselves that is just us, and it's wise, and it's capable, beautiful, centered. And so we need to create the space for that. And when we're being clouded by being hooked by a difficult emotion, there's not the space. So, some practical strategies is,

6. 24:16 – 31:19

   Practical strategies to use when you’re feeling hooked on a certain emotion.

   1. SDDr. Susan David24:16

      when we are hooked by a difficult emotion, is to recognize that often we use very big labels to describe what we're feeling. If you just think about something as simple as saying, "I'm stressed," okay? A lot of people come home and someone says, "How was your day?" "Stressful."

   2. MRMel Robbins24:35

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SDDr. Susan David24:36

      Yeah? Now, let's deconstruct that a little bit.Your body, your psychology doesn't know what to do with the word stress. There is a world of difference between stress and disappointment.

   4. MRMel Robbins24:52

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SDDr. Susan David24:54

      Okay? Stress and, "I feel unsupported." Stress and, "I feel unseen." Stress and, "I'm bored." Okay? There's a world of difference. What we know is that when we label our emotions with greater levels of accuracy, with high levels of granularity, that what it starts to enable us to do is to understand the cause of the emotion, "Gee, it's not just stress, it's I'm feeling unsupported," and it also allows us to develop what psychologists call a readiness potential. You know, the readiness potential, when you move away from, "I'm not stressed, actually I'm bored," what that boredom does is, when you're starting to label it in that way, you're also starting to say, "Gee, what do I need to do to now not be bored?" So it starts to move you towards goals. We know that children as young as two and three years old who have greater levels of emotion granularity, in other words, they're not just saying, "I'm mad" or, "I'm sad," but they're able to say, "I feel a bit upset. I feel a bit disappointed. I feel..." Even children as young as two and three years old, obviously within their language capacity, those children who have greater levels of emotional granularity, 10, 20, 30 years later, those children do better. So, again, coming back to Tina, uh, we've got this gentle acceptance of emotion that is crucial. In my work, I call it gentle acceptance. It's about showing up to all of our emotions with acceptance and curiosity. Not the same as passive resignation, but it's this gentle acceptance. We also want to start creating space, because we can't be wise, we can't be intentional when we just go on autopilot or in react-

   6. MRMel Robbins26:56

      I want to lean into the word. How do I separate my emotions?

   7. SDDr. Susan David27:00

      Yeah.

   8. MRMel Robbins27:01

      And whenever I use that in my own life-

   9. SDDr. Susan David27:05

      Mm-hmm.

   10. MRMel Robbins27:06

       ... I want to separate my emotions from a child that feels anxious-

   11. SDDr. Susan David27:11

       Yeah.

   12. MRMel Robbins27:11

       ... or a husband that is struggling with depression, or going through something really difficult.

   13. SDDr. Susan David27:16

       Yeah.

   14. MRMel Robbins27:16

       When you feel that sense to separate, is that a signal that you're getting kind of sucked into and triggered by someone else's emotions, and you need to now take a breath and come back into your own body? 'Cause if I listen closely to what you're saying, you're basically saying that, of course, if there's somebody in your life that is struggling, it's going to make you sad, and make you feel grief, and make you feel all these complicated things-

   15. SDDr. Susan David27:48

       Mm-hmm.

   16. MRMel Robbins27:49

       ... which is absolutely normal.

   17. SDDr. Susan David27:50

       Yeah.

   18. MRMel Robbins27:50

       And that hustling with our emotions and being in conflict with what is coming up for you is part of the problem, like resisting the actual-

   19. SDDr. Susan David28:02

       Yes.

   20. MRMel Robbins28:02

       ... feelings that you have.

   21. SDDr. Susan David28:03

       Yes. Yes.

   22. MRMel Robbins28:04

       How do you separate, though, what your son or daughter or significant other is dealing with, and needs to deal with and feel for themselves-

   23. SDDr. Susan David28:14

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MRMel Robbins28:15

       ... and what you need to deal with for yourself?

   25. SDDr. Susan David28:19

       Yeah.

   26. MRMel Robbins28:20

       Because for me, I'll just explain, in case it's helpful to you listening, when one of our kids is struggling with anxiety, which all three of them have in various levels throughout their life-

   27. SDDr. Susan David28:30

       Yeah.

   28. MRMel Robbins28:31

       ... or my husband struggling with depression-

   29. SDDr. Susan David28:33

       Yeah.

   30. MRMel Robbins28:34

       ... the emotions that come up for me are so-
7. 31:19 – 39:56

   Two common reactions to difficult emotions and how to properly cope.

   1. SDDr. Susan David31:19

      What we found, what I found in my work, is that usually when people have these difficult emotions, and you captured this so beautifully in the example that you gave, is often what we have is one of two reactions, and people sometimes jump from one to the next. The first is what I call bottling difficult emotions. Bottling difficult emotions is when we experience these emotions, but we start engaging in emotional suppression. We can do it with ourselves, we can do it with others. Um, ignoring and going and watching Netflix so I don't need to deal with it is an example of bottling. Doing that once is fine, but when it becomes a default coping strategy, you aren't gonna be effective in the world at all. So, bottling is this idea that, of suppressing difficult emotions. Um, pushing it aside in myself, pushing it aside in others, forced positivity-

   2. MRMel Robbins32:15

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SDDr. Susan David32:15

      ... trying to fix, trying to say to someone, "Don't worry, it'll be okay." Sometimes, you know, leaders will say, when people are going through difficult situations at work, leaders will say something like, "It doesn't matter. Everything will be okay. Like, everything will be fine." And I'm like, that is not leadership. That is what we call denial (laughs) . You know, forced positivity is not leadership. Forced positivity is denial. It's denial that's, like, wrapped up in rainbows and sparkles-

   4. MRMel Robbins32:45

      So, what do you do-

   5. SDDr. Susan David32:46

      ... but it's denial.

   6. MRMel Robbins32:47

      ... if you're, like, worried though? Like, you've got somebody that-

   7. SDDr. Susan David32:49

      It's-

   8. MRMel Robbins32:49

      ... you don't know what I mean?

   9. SDDr. Susan David32:50

      It's denial, yeah.

   10. MRMel Robbins32:50

       That's really struggling?

   11. SDDr. Susan David32:51

       So, and then the opposite is brooding. And brooding is where we're like, "This feels terrible. This feels so difficult." We get stuck in our difficult emotion. So, what we want to do with our difficult emotions to create that distance is firstly this gentle acceptance that I spoke about. Secondly is, when we start getting granular with our emotions, we are now not in the space of, like, "Oh, everything's stressful and my whole family life is, you know, up the creek."

   12. MRMel Robbins33:20

       Right.

   13. SDDr. Susan David33:21

       Instead, what we're doing is we're saying, like, "I'm feeling disappointed because this is hard."

   14. MRMel Robbins33:26

       Right.

   15. SDDr. Susan David33:27

       Okay? And just that starts to create a sense of liberation and ourselves, and a sense of separation. Another thing, and this is, I think, is one of the most powerful things that we need to recognize, I own my emotions. My emotions don't own me.

   16. MRMel Robbins33:49

       A-a... I mean, that sounds great.

   17. SDDr. Susan David33:51

       Okay?

   18. MRMel Robbins33:51

       I don't know that I feel that way some days.

   19. SDDr. Susan David33:53

       So-

   20. MRMel Robbins33:53

       You know? I'm, like-

   21. SDDr. Susan David33:53

       ... let's just think about our language.

   22. MRMel Robbins33:55

       Okay.

   23. SDDr. Susan David33:56

       All right? "I am sad." What are we saying when we say, "I am sad"? We're saying, "All of me, 100% of me."

   24. MRMel Robbins34:04

       Oh, versus, "I feel sad"?

   25. SDDr. Susan David34:06

       Versus, "I'm noticing that I'm feeling sad."

   26. MRMel Robbins34:08

       Mm.

   27. SDDr. Susan David34:09

       When we say, "I feel sad," when we f- say, "I feel angry," what we are literally doing is saying, "I am all of me" is defined by the sadness. And now, the metaphor that I use sometimes is, you know, imagine there's a cloud in the sky. When you say, "I am sad. I am angry. You know, I'm a bad parent," okay, what we are doing is we are almost being the cloud. "I am all of me" is that cloud. But when we instead s- start noticing our thoughts, our emotions, and our stories for what they are, "I'm noticing that I'm feeling grieving about what I'm seeing in my child. I'm noticing my sense of disappointment that I need to go it alone here, okay, that I'm the person that's holding the family together." Okay? Uh, "I'm noticing a story, which is that I needed to be a perfect parent here." Okay? So, when we move away from "I'm a bad parent" into "I'm noticing my thoughts, emotions, and stories for what they are," which is, their thoughts, their emotions, their stories, they're parts of us. They're not all of us. We've also got our wisdom. We've got our values. We've got our intentions. We've got our wants, our dreams. So, we need to create that separation. And a really powerful way of doing that is using this linguistic separation. Linguistic separation, instead of, "I am sad," "I'm noticing that I'm feeling sad."

   28. MRMel Robbins35:51

       Mm.

   29. SDDr. Susan David35:51

       What you're doing here is you're not the cloud. You are the whole damn sky.

   30. MRMel Robbins36:00

       So-
8. 39:56 – 47:26

   These are the emotions behind passive-aggressive behavior.

   1. MRMel Robbins39:56

      volatile or passive-

   2. SDDr. Susan David39:57

      Yeah.

   3. MRMel Robbins39:57

      ... aggressive in the way they communicate with you, what is the deeper thing that you could probably assume somebody's feeling or dealing with so that you can tap into that compassion instead of like, "Oh, she's a jerk," you know?

   4. SDDr. Susan David40:11

      Yeah. So, I- I think this is really important. People don't... I'm just gonna say it. Like, "I'm lonely," but if we think about, for example, the loneliness, and then move it into that example, what is loneliness signposting? Loneliness is signposting a greater need for intimacy and connection.

   5. MRMel Robbins40:26

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SDDr. Susan David40:26

      Okay? That's what it's signposting.

   7. MRMel Robbins40:27

      Yep.

   8. SDDr. Susan David40:28

      Boredom is often signposting a greater need for growth. Anger, you know, this idea of we've got to, like, not have anger, anger's often signposting a need th- for equity or fairness or that some values are being traversed. So, if we move away from this idea that emotions are good or bad or that-

   9. MRMel Robbins40:45

      No.

   10. SDDr. Susan David40:45

       ... I'm only allowed some of them, actually what we do is we move into this space where we start saying, for me as well as for the friend in the restaurant, is like, these emotions are signposting our needs and our values. And I think this is very, very powerful. Now, the person might not say, "I am lonely," or, "Gee, I feel excluded." Instead they're doing it in this passive aggressive way.

   11. MRMel Robbins41:08

       Right.

   12. SDDr. Susan David41:08

       Um, but you are able to, as a human to another human, start saying, like, instead of what I'm seeing about the emotion, what is the function of the emotion? What is the emotion trying to tell us about our needs and our values? And the space of compassion is the space of saying, "Gee, it is actually hard to human, and gee, it actually... When- when you feel like you're part of our group of friends, and you came out to dinner, and you happened to see me with a smaller circle of this group having a birthday party, and you realized you weren't invited, that kind of hurts, okay?"

   13. MRMel Robbins41:57

       A lot.

   14. SDDr. Susan David41:58

       A lot. A lot, a lot, a lot. So, what is... What is the function of the emotional? What is the function of the text? Okay? The function of the text is saying, "Do I matter?" Or, "Am I... Am I still part of us?" And we... We... Often, what we're doing in reactive mode is, what do we do? We get the text. We say, "Oh my God. Can you believe she didn't understand that I just wanted to be by myself?" We maybe text our other friends. We start labeling them as toxic.

   15. MRMel Robbins42:44

       Mm-hmm.

   16. SDDr. Susan David42:45

       We start, um... There's a... There's a very powerful way that we often... We call it the, um, fundamental attribution bias, where we start saying what that person's experiencing is now her personality, okay?

   17. MRMel Robbins42:58

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SDDr. Susan David42:59

       "She's needy. She's all of these things." Okay? So, what- what- what we're often doing when we're in reactive mode is, "That person's defensive, now I'm defensive," and now we're in this weird escalation-

   19. MRMel Robbins43:16

       Yes.

   20. SDDr. Susan David43:16

       ... of something that doesn't need to be.... a different way of being in that space.

   21. MRMel Robbins43:21

       Talk to us, 'cause I want to know how you-

   22. SDDr. Susan David43:22

       Yeah.

   23. MRMel Robbins43:22

       ... would handle that, 'cause I love the word escalation, because you're right. I think we all have someone in our life where you've been on the receiving end of, "Oh, I see you're in Boston, Mel. Thanks for calling me." Like, I get one of those from time to time-

   24. SDDr. Susan David43:34

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   25. MRMel Robbins43:34

       ... and I'm like... Now, I'm never calling you, by the way. But-

   26. SDDr. Susan David43:36

       Well, like, exactly. Like, thanks a lot.

   27. MRMel Robbins43:37

       Yeah. So now, all of a sudden-

   28. SDDr. Susan David43:38

       You just, like, guaranteed-

   29. MRMel Robbins43:39

       ... your immature emotion, my immature emotion escalates.

   30. SDDr. Susan David43:43

       Yeah.
9. 47:26 – 52:25

   Practice these skills to find the deeper meaning behind other's behaviors.

   1. MRMel Robbins47:26

      practice these skills and you come back to this emotional core, think about the gymnast, center yourself, pause, and then you can ask yourself, "What might this person be feeling?" Like, the passive-aggressive, the immature behavior, there is something deeper underneath that. And if I had to guess what's underneath somebody who's even texting me, "Hey, I see you're in Boston. Things well..." Is they're trying to connect, even though the way they're doing it blows. That deeper and more profound underneath either the silence, the passive-aggressive, all this stuff that g- irritates us is just another human being who can't process their emotions and who wants to somehow connect with you. And I think having that reframing helps me be a better human. It helps me bring more compassion, and it also helps me diffuse the emotion in the moment and be able to reach out to this friend of mine and say, you know, something like, "I can see that you're s- upset. Let's have a conversation about it tomorrow, 'cause I certainly don't want you to feel that way. Thanks for reaching out." What a wonderful way to handle it. Certainly beats turning to your friends at the table and being like, "What a jerk." That is more emotional immaturity. Like, I, I, I feel like there is an epidemic of avoiding difficult feelings-

   2. SDDr. Susan David48:51

      Yes.

   3. MRMel Robbins48:51

      ... and avoiding difficult conversations-

   4. SDDr. Susan David48:53

      Yes.

   5. MRMel Robbins48:53

      ... and shoving it down-

   6. SDDr. Susan David48:54

      And of calling people toxic-

   7. MRMel Robbins48:56

      ... and then bitching. Yes.

   8. SDDr. Susan David48:56

      ... and of bitching-

   9. MRMel Robbins48:57

      Yes.

   10. SDDr. Susan David48:57

       ... and of whatever.

   11. MRMel Robbins48:57

       Yes. I'll tell you what I do. I literally will go on text, and we've all been on the receiving end of a (imitates rapid message sending)

   12. SDDr. Susan David49:05

       Yeah.

   13. MRMel Robbins49:05

       ... return, (imitates rapid message receiving) return, (imitates rapid message receiving) return, (imitates rapid message receiving) . Like, you just vent it, vent it, vent it, vent it. And why am I venting? Because I can't tolerate how I'm feeling.

   14. SDDr. Susan David49:14

       Yeah.

   15. MRMel Robbins49:14

       So I dump it on somebody else.

   16. SDDr. Susan David49:15

       Yes.

   17. MRMel Robbins49:16

       Uncomfortable feelings. I have one other question I wanted to ask you. What is the connection between-... emotions in people pleasing?

   18. SDDr. Susan David49:24

       Brilliant question. Love it. Um, a huge part of the connection relates back to what we described with display roles. If we think about our, uh, most, uh, vulnerable place we've been in the world, it has been typically with our caregivers, okay? And so what we learn with our caregivers is these subtle cues about which emotions will get us the kind of love that we need, and which emotions are too much for them, need to be hidden from them, and will ultimately threaten the most important relationship in our life. So, we start often attaching experiences of difficult emotion to caregiving. So, when I feel sad, which was something that I was not really allowed to feel when I was, when I was younger, but now I'm seeing that in someone else, I need to take it away. A lot of people pleasing stems from a discomfort with being with discomfort.

   19. MRMel Robbins50:36

       Of course.

   20. SDDr. Susan David50:36

       Okay?

   21. MRMel Robbins50:36

       I don't want to disappoint you. That's why I'm going to bend over backwards.

   22. SDDr. Susan David50:38

       I don't want to, I don't want to disappoint. I don't want to be sad. I don't want to... So all of these display roles of things that we didn't want, I, I, I, I don't want to be angry. I don't want you to be angry because I, I didn't want my parent to be angry. So a huge part of circling back to what, what we was talking about earlier, I think these are the skills of the future because the emotional work in the world, especially in a changing, complex world where our jobs are being commoditized, where there's all of this stuff going on, a huge part of the emotional work is to go beyond the surface reactivity, the emotional immaturity that you spoke about earlier, and to develop a deep ability to be with discomfort, especially emotional discomfort. Because in the space of discomfort is where you develop the skills that help you with distress tolerance, help you to understand your values, help you to understand other people's values, help you to have a difficult conversation. I, I, I think the, the work is about being able to be with discomfort, but it's not discomfort for the sake of it. It's not, "I'm just getting up and I'm just pushing myself to burnout." It's not discomfort for the sake of it. It is discomfort because it aligns with who you want to be as a person. It is discomfort that moves you to your values, to the things that you care about in your life.

   23. MRMel Robbins52:24

       I have

10. 52:25 – 58:25

    If you’re struggling to process your emotions, listen to this advice.

    1. MRMel Robbins52:25

       this question, and I'm curious if you have a specific strategy somebody could use. Uh, she writes in, "My brother-in-law is in a relationship with my best friend."

    2. SDDr. Susan David52:36

       Mm-hmm.

    3. MRMel Robbins52:36

       "They've been dating for two years. I'm trying to process my emotion about it, but I'm constantly experiencing anger, annoyance, and emotional discomfort." And I think we see this when a parent remarries.

    4. SDDr. Susan David52:50

       Yeah.

    5. MRMel Robbins52:51

       We see this with step-kids. We see this with a new manager.

    6. SDDr. Susan David52:54

       Yeah.

    7. MRMel Robbins52:55

       So if you've been trying to process emotions-

    8. SDDr. Susan David52:58

       Yeah.

    9. MRMel Robbins52:58

       ... and you can't seem to stabilize them or, like what-

    10. SDDr. Susan David53:04

        Yeah.

    11. MRMel Robbins53:04

        ... would be a strategy-

    12. SDDr. Susan David53:06

        Yeah.

    13. MRMel Robbins53:06

        ... as a psychologist, you would recommend somebody do?

    14. SDDr. Susan David53:08

        Uh, uh, first important part of my work is not to try to force positivity in yourself.

    15. MRMel Robbins53:12

        Yeah.

    16. SDDr. Susan David53:12

        A lot of us try to say, "I shouldn't feel that. I should just be happy for them," okay? Forced positivity, again, rainbows, unicorns, sparkles, but it makes us less resilient.

    17. MRMel Robbins53:23

        Okay.

    18. SDDr. Susan David53:23

        It makes us less effective. Second is, we can look at it as discomfort, and I think it's powerful and it's true, but getting to the emotion granularity piece, what is it that is leading to the, this discomfort? Is it, is it a bit- a sense of loss in your, in your girlfriend, in the relationship? Is it a sense that you were once thick and together and now it feels like there's an interloper? I think there's something so powerful in just understanding what is it that is happening here?

    19. MRMel Robbins54:02

        Yeah. I, I, what I just got in listening to you is I think a lot of people feel very territorial-

    20. SDDr. Susan David54:09

        Yeah.

    21. MRMel Robbins54:09

        ... about where they're at, and whether it's a friend coming in to work at the same restaurant or it's now somebody dating someone that's connected to the person that you're dating-

    22. SDDr. Susan David54:18

        Yeah.

    23. MRMel Robbins54:18

        ... or working, like that you start to get really threatened-

    24. SDDr. Susan David54:23

        Yes, yes.

    25. MRMel Robbins54:24

        ... by it.

    26. SDDr. Susan David54:24

        And it's often coming from insecurity. Remember when we were at school and people kept saying, our teachers kept saying, "Keep your eyes on your own work. Keep your eyes on your own work. Keep your eyes on your own work." It's, it's very important for us to keep our eyes on our own work, and what I mean by that metaphorically, if you know what you stand for, if you know what you care about, if you have your own back, if you love yourself, if you're kind to yourself and compassionate to yourself, if you understand what your values are, if you do the work that it takes to be human, you are gonna be more able to keep your eyes on your own work because you're not insecure about how your work compares to someone else's. So I think that very often when there's this insecurity or, or where it's a sense of being territorial, it's coming from pain in the self-

    27. MRMel Robbins55:21

        Yes.

    28. SDDr. Susan David55:21

        ... from a lack of groundedness in the self.

    29. MRMel Robbins55:23

        Yeah.

    30. SDDr. Susan David55:23

        And part of the work then is understanding the what's and the why's...... of that, so that you can move forward, not driven by your emotion, but stepping into your values about how you want to be with this person, how you value the friendship, w- what boundaries look like in that friendship, asking the difficult questions that we all need to do. When we ask these questions about ourselves in relationships, is this idea that, like, there is... there is, there is perfection out there, isn't it? I- i- you know, there is this idea that, "If I could only solve this relationship, or if I could only solve that relationship, th- that things would be okay." And... I often think about this idea, which is... solving, and fixing, and controlling are a core part of the problem.
11. 58:25 – 1:04:59

    Why wishing away your emotions is a “dead person’s goal.”

    1. SDDr. Susan David58:25

       people will say, "I just wish the stress would go away. I wish the stress of the difficult relationship would go away. I- I just wish the stress of my difficult job would go away." And I understand that, but the idea of never having your heart broken, of never not getting the job you wanted, that is a dead person's goal.

    2. MRMel Robbins58:47

       What is a dead person's goal?

    3. SDDr. Susan David58:50

       We will have... and I'm saying this facetiously. You know, we will have many years when we are dead, not to have our hearts broken, never to be stressed, never to not get the job. We don't get to have a meaningful career, to have meaningful relationships, to raise a family. We don't get to leave the world a better place without stress and discomfort. Discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life. Discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life, and these emotional agility skills are the skills that enable us to navigate these difficult emotions, to connect with who we want to be, and to move forward with courage.

    4. MRMel Robbins59:43

       Did you hear that? Discomfort is the price of admission for life. So when Dr. David is saying, "You don't want a dead person's goals," a dead person doesn't feel anything. You want to live a full life? You got to lean into the discomfort. You want to have better friendships? You got to be willing to have the uncomfortable conversation about the deeper thing you're feeling or the deeper thing that your friend might be feeling. You want to be more successful? The number one skill, she said it over and over and over again, is learning how to tolerate change, learning how to tolerate difficult emotion. And what I love about what I'm learning, and what I hope you're taking away from this, is that you can feel all the emotions, which we've learned are valid, they're a natural part of life, but you don't have to act on them immediately. You can come back to your center, and you can feel something that's uncomfortable, and you can still then choose and decide to make a decision, or support somebody, or respond in a way that is aligned with your values. What is the closing wisdom that you have for the person listening?

    5. SDDr. Susan David1:00:52

       What I would say is... this. When I was little, when I was around five years old, I experienced what so many young children experience, which is, you start becoming aware of your own mortality. Okay? At around-

    6. MRMel Robbins1:01:10

       At five?

    7. SDDr. Susan David1:01:11

       At five. At around five-

    8. MRMel Robbins1:01:13

       You were a serious little kid. (laughs)

    9. SDDr. Susan David1:01:15

       I was a serious kid.

    10. MRMel Robbins1:01:16

        (laughs) God.

    11. SDDr. Susan David1:01:16

        But, but, but, it's, it's n- It's... A lot of, uh, work shows that at around five years old, children start to become aware of others-

    12. MRMel Robbins1:01:27

        Yup.

    13. SDDr. Susan David1:01:27

        ... aware of others' mortality and of their own mortality.

    14. MRMel Robbins1:01:30

        Gotcha.

    15. SDDr. Susan David1:01:30

        It's a developmentally normal phase that kids go through. There's a lot of anxiety that comes with that.... when I was five, you can imagine I was fun to be with, I started to recognize that my parents wouldn't be around forever. And I would night, after night, after night, find my way into my parent's bed. I would lie between them and I would say to them, "Promise me you'll never die. Okay? Promise me you'll never die." Now, as it turns out, 10 years later my father, when I was 15, did die of terminal cancer. My father could have done the avoidance. He could have said, "Don't worry about it. Everything's fine." You know, uh, "Don't be such a baby. There's nothing to be scared of." He could have done all the stuff that we've spoken about, which is the avoidance, the emotional immaturity, the pitter-patter of, y- you know, text-to-text, like all the stuff that we've spoken about, but my father didn't. My father said this to me. He said to me, "Suzy, we all die. It's normal to be scared." And what he was doing was, number one saying to me, "There's no emotion that you need to fear. Okay? I see you. I see your fear and I'm with you in that fear." What I understood he was saying is courage is not the absence of fear. Courage is fear walking. Courage is the ability to hold the difficult emotions, the upset, the anger that you or someone else feels, the anxiety. It's- it's holding those things and walking towards what matters to you in your life, in your love, in your relationships and your work, and what matters to you is what is of values to you. So, courage is not the absence of fear. Courage is holding that fear and moving towards what is important.

    16. MRMel Robbins1:03:45

        Dr. Susan David, thank you so much for spending so much time with us today.

    17. SDDr. Susan David1:03:51

        Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

    18. MRMel Robbins1:03:53

        And to you listening, I want to make sure that, um, in case nobody else tells you, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you. And I believe in your ability to take everything that you just learned today and support yourself in being emotionally agile and show up to life and relationships with greater compassion for what other people may be signaling and use all of this wisdom to create a better life. All right, I'll talk to you in a few days. One more thing. I know you're thinking, "Oh my god, Mel, I wanna watch more." Um, do me a favor. First hit subscribe because that tells me you love this kind of content and it also supports me in being able to bring you all of this inspiration and these research-backed strategies every single day. So just hit subscribe. Please, please, please. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And also, I know you probably want some more inspiration, something beautiful to watch, so check out this video next. I picked it for you. I know you're gonna enjoy it.

Episode duration: 1:04:59