EVERY SPOKEN WORD
135 min read · 27,104 words- 0:00 – 7:59
Why We Should Be Comfortable With Uncertainty
- CWChris Williamson
The most important skill in the 21st century is the ability to live happily with uncertainty
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, I, I, I mean, do you know what's going on? [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Almost never.
- SPSpeaker
I mean, you, you... millions of people, like, tune in to listen to you to try to figure out what's going on, and you still don't know what's going on. So it's... if, if you and I can't figure it out, like, I think we're all pretty... Um, it, it is interesting that, like, as access to information scales, the certainty and the confidence around that information, like, dissipates. I feel like everybody is-- feels less moored to reality than ever before, despite the fact that we have access to everything twenty-four/seven, which is, like, a very weird paradox. But I think it's, it's... there's a, a deep human instinct to seek out certainty, to find a certain set of beliefs and assumptions that you can kinda like hang your hat on and build your life around. And I think it's becoming harder than it's ever been before, and I think as a result, developing kind of the cognitive flexibility to live in ambiguity is probably more important than it's ever been.
- CWChris Williamson
What happens if you can't deal with uncertainty?
- SPSpeaker
Then you will over-index on one single belief, right? So you'll become radical about one idea. You'll, you'll basically put all of your kind of emotional well-being into a single concept or a single world, worldview. And the danger of that is just that, like, any... every worldview is gonna get blown up at a certain point. Like-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
... nothing survives contact with reality. Um, so when you are forced, you know, when, when that worldview gets contradicted, you're either gonna suffer immensely or you're gonna have to double down the delusion to maintain the certainty.
- CWChris Williamson
Anxiety is all about uncertainty. It's about trying to compress uncertainty down.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
I don't know what's going to happen in future. If I can imagine all of the different ways that the future might unfold, especially the really bad ones-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... I'll be able to plan and war game, and that means that when it happens, I'll be ready.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
You know, there's a... it's a really strange comment on how humans' brains work that we would rather imagine a catastrophe than deal with uncertainty.
- SPSpeaker
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, it- you think about, um, you think about it as thinking in superpositions, right? People would rather collapse the superposition down into something that maybe even breaks the laws of physics. Uh, your dead grandma comes back from the grave to tell you off for this thing that you di- y- this entire supernatural shit's going on.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
That's what you would rather have in your mind-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... than, "I don't know what's gonna happen."
- SPSpeaker
Right. It's interesting too, like what you described about anxiety, that kind of... that treadmill that you get on, right? Of like trying to predict future outcomes. In the process of trying to predict those outcomes, trying to be- become certain about what's gonna happen, uh, you actually just inadvertently build more surface area for more uncertainty because every- everything you try to project into the future, you just create more opportunities for that to be wrong.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
And-
- CWChris Williamson
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... um, so it, it's interesting 'cause I think, I think actually, like the antidote to this, it, it's more of like an aperture issue, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
It's... I think instead of trying to be certain about very specific small, narrow things, it's better to try to zoom out till you find a place of confidence, right? So, um, like just take like AI for instance, right? Everybody's freaking out about it. Everybody's got... You know, some people think the world's gonna end. Some people think that everybody's gonna lose their jobs. Some people think, like, China's gonna take over everything. I have no idea if any of those things are true. But like if I zoom out broadly enough and you just look at every major technological revolution throughout human history, there is disruption, there is some displacement, but like society adapts and moves on. And so if I zoom out to that wide of an aperture, suddenly I feel some degree of certainty that we're gonna be okay in the macro.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
But in the micro, right, of like are you and I gonna have jobs in two years? Like I... some- less certainty about that. [laughs]
- 7:59 – 20:55
Is Friction the Key to Growth?
- CWChris Williamson
thing. All right, next one.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Do hard shit, not because it's fun, but because the win actually means something. You bled for it. You broke for it. You earned it. Easy wins are forgettable. Hard ones change you. That's the point.
- SPSpeaker
I, I've been thinking a lot about this concept recently of like how there's an inverse relationship between convenience and significance. Like I think we tend to only appreciate things that require some degree of friction or sacrifice. And I mean, look, there's, there's the classic reason to do hard things, which is kind of what we just... You know, it's like you build resilience and you, you know, you build up your endurance and, uh, self-belief and confidence and all these things. But I, I, I'm... I've been thinking a, a lot about this more from like kind of a existential meaning lens of that when things are just handed to you, you take them for granted. It's human nature. And so if there are a lot of results in your life, if, if, if we are all kind of accumulating more and more results and outputs in our life that are kind of just handed to us by technology-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... you know, fucking burrito taxis coming anytime we want. Like it, it's, it's in, in one way it's kind of robbing us for opportunities of significance. And I'm, I'm... Maybe it's because I'm 40 now, but I'm like [laughs] I'm like starting, I'm starting to develop, uh, this like interest in, in intentionally introducing friction back into my life in certain ways.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
I, I actually had a conversation with my wife last night where like she was telling me, she said that one of her, her childhood friends, um, sent her some voice notes and it's like sh- she was going through all this shit. Like her kid was having problems. Uh, her business partner was like, you know, just completely checked out. Um, huge fight with like her ex-husband, all this stuff. And my wife was like, "Do you wanna talk?" And her friend was like, "I never even considered... Like I didn't wanna bother you or, you know, you're busy or whatever." And then of course they got on the phone, they talked for like an hour and a half, and it was like this great kind of reconnection in this moment. But my wife and I were talking last night about like how just that reluctance to even like actually call somebody-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... without permission, without like establishing, "Okay, I sent a text and then I asked if I can call." Um, it's... We're, we're all so like hung up on it's an... The phone is annoying. It's annoying, like when the phone rings. It's annoying to like have to deal with calls, um, that we've like robbed ourselves of the friction that actually builds like the, uh, the connective tissue of our relationships, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
'Cause you can't reproduce that intimacy through like voice notes or text messages or anything. So like that's a very superficial example, but like we're surrounded by those superficial examples 24/7. Is this making any sense?
- CWChris Williamson
Absolutely.
- SPSpeaker
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
You would... It... Th- th- I didn't know where you were going at the start, but you really brought it back into land there. Um, the, uh, the inconvenience of a friendship is exactly where it grows from.
- SPSpeaker
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
It's, uh, the definition of safety, the best definition of safety that's been formally given to me is we can go through something hard and come out the other side okay.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
The best definition of personal safety and sovereignty is I'm okay no matter what happens.
- SPSpeaker
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Which is something similar. It's a relationship with yourself or relationship with somebody else.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But you have to... How do you know that you're safe if you haven't gone through something difficult with somebody?
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
It's the same thing as Jordan Peterson's idea about you're not being noble if you're unable to be harmful.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
You're just being harmless.
- SPSpeaker
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
A rabbit doesn't choose... Actually, rabbits can be bastards, but a rabbit doesn't choose [laughs] to be harmless.
- SPSpeaker
Right.
- 20:55 – 30:14
The Truth Behind Choosing a Partner
- CWChris Williamson
When you select a partner, whether you realize it or not, you're choosing a whole lifestyle and not just the person. You're choosing their sleep schedule. You're choosing their money habits. You're choosing their stress levels, their family drama-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
... their levels of cleanliness, their work ethic, their coping mechanisms. All of these things will be a baseline of your daily life. If their normal is doom scrolling till 2:00 a.m., avoiding all conflict, impulse spending, and never exercising, guess what? You're signing up to live in that ecosystem. Love does not cancel out people's flaws. In fact, love just makes you tolerate them for longer. Most people obsess over, "Do we have romantic chemistry?" And they completely skip, "Can I live with this person's version of a Tuesday for the next 10 years?"
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
The hard truth is you don't fix somebody's lifestyle from the inside. You either accept the package as they are or you walk.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm. I've been having, I've been having this conversation with a lot of single friends recently of... What I'm, what I am noticing is that people tend-- seem to have kind of this laundry list of requirements. And as soon as they... And there's this, also this false perception of infinite options. And so as soon as the person that they're seeing or that they're on a date with, like, fails one of the qualifications, they're like, "Oh, next, I'm gonna move on." And then of course they're, you know, 45 and still single and wondering why they never found anybody. And have you ever heard that story that I think it, I think it, it was Warren Buffett where he said that he was like, you know, you, you write out a list of 20 things that you want in your life, put them in order from the thing that's most important to least important, and then cross out everything but the top three. It-- I, I'm, I've essentially started giving that exercise to my single friends.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
'Cause I, I'm like, "You're not gonna find all of these." And, and, and it's you've been brainwashed. You have this, like, false perception that there's a lot of these people out there that, that tick every single box, and there's not. And you're probab- even if there is, you're probably not gonna meet them. And, and if you do meet them, they're gonna have so many options that it's gonna be, like, very unlikely that you end up with them. So it's find your three non-negotiables and then negotiate on the rest. And that's like fucking sacrilege these days to tell people because they're like, "I don't wanna settle."
- CWChris Williamson
Sounds like settling.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, "I don't wanna settle." And it's like, dude, everybody settles on something.
- CWChris Williamson
I mean, you're settling in that you can't fly at the moment.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
You know? You're settling in that you need to go to bed every night.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. I mean, dude, there's things that... I've been with my wife for 14 years. There's things about her that still drive me fucking crazy. And, but I, I-
- CWChris Williamson
She's, like, Latina, right?
- SPSpeaker
Well, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. So that, that kind of comes... That's par for the course.
- SPSpeaker
It's, yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
It's par for every course.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
But it's the Latina, the Latino versions are just much more dramatic and-
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... very loud.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah.
- SPSpeaker
With lots of tears involved.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah. Spicy.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
It's a spicy version.
- SPSpeaker
Yes.
- 30:14 – 39:18
Why Self-Optimisation Isn’t For Everyone
- CWChris Williamson
it's funny. Rory Sutherland's got this idea. He says you should have an air fryer girlfriend, not a Fiat 500 girlfriend. And what he means by that is you want to find somebody who only you can see the value in, in a way that other people can't.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And who have disadvantages that only you can tolerate in a way that other people can't. So if you have an air fryer, for instance-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
It's gonna stank up the kitchen. If you're sensitive to smells, it's gonna be a bad thing to have in your house, or else you're gonna have to put it out on the balcony or in the garage or something like that, and that's a bit of a nightmare to use. If you're not that bothered about smells, you can have your entire life's calories go through one machine. Uh, he uses the example that, um, he doesn't mind noise when he goes to sleep.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
He's a fan of trains and he likes beer. So he lived in a house that was next to a pub with a garden that backs onto a railway line because he quite likes the trains. They're actually actively sort of e- enjoyable for him to see going by. He doesn't mind that much about the noise from them or from the beer garden, and he's made good friends with the landlord of the pub and it means that he can order a beer by leaning over his fence and asking for it.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
And he can sort of enjoy the atmosphere of the pub from the comfort of his own home.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, what he's done is he's been able to get a house, I think it's his cottage that's somewhere in the British countryside. He's been able to get that at a price that most other people would still think was too much despite the fact that it's discounted-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... because there are certain inconveniences and challenges that he is particularly well-equipped to put up with that other people would struggle with.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And the same thing is true when it comes to choosing a partner.
- SPSpeaker
Can, can we dig into this a little bit? Because I, I feel like-
- CWChris Williamson
Air fryer girlfriend?
- SPSpeaker
Well, I'll let you know how that goes over with my wife. I'm gonna c- I'm gonna go home after this and just-
- CWChris Williamson
Darling, darling, I, I will-
- SPSpeaker
You're my air fryer in my life. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
You're my air fryer wife. You're my air fryer.
- SPSpeaker
I can, I can cook everything in you. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Well, you know, that's... I mean, she is Brazilian, so-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... they're highly fertile.
- SPSpeaker
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Uh, but, uh, it's, uh, and especially, like you, you come more from this optimization world than I do. Um, but the person-- like the personalization of optimization. Like this is the thing that always bugged me about a lot of the optimization content out there because it's, everybody's so different in terms of what they want and who they are and like what they're predisposed to. And I think the same way, like some people are more predisposed to certain athletic activities or certain physical activities than others, we're all predisposed to like certain psychological environments-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... and certain types of relationships than other people. And, and, and I just, it drives me crazy that there's like no accounting for that often. Like there's no discussion of how it's... Yeah, living next to a train track where you can order a beer over a fence is like, that might actually be optimal for one person's life, whereas you would never see that like broadcasts on, you know-
- 39:18 – 54:48
Life Doesn’t Hand Out Pity Passes
- CWChris Williamson
checkout. Nobody owes you patience just because you've had a rough upbringing or a hard day. Life doesn't hand out pity passes. Use your pain as fuel, not a crutch. You don't build psychological resilience by feeling good all the time. You build psychological resilience by getting better at feeling bad.
- SPSpeaker
That is definitely a, a... That was definitely posted in 2025 or 2026 [chuckles] 'cause it- that would, that would- that's the sort of thing that you could not post between like 2016 and 2022.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Uh, it would've gotten me canceled. Um, all sorts of proclamations about white male privilege or whatnot. Um, I, I mean, it's, it's, it's difficult because there are genuine victims in the world, and there are people who have genuinely suffered lots of shit that is not fair and not their fault, and those people deserve sympathy. But they don't deserve... They don't necessarily deserve anything more than that. And I think we're kind of coming out of this period, but we went through a very intense period where there was a lot of e-entitlement associated with... Like I, I think in one of my books I called it the Victimhood Olympics.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
It's like... And, and you see this now with like a lot of like super lefty groups. You know, it's, it's like, well, I am a abused indigenous person of color who grew up with three legs and, and then it's like the next person is like, "Well, as a person who grew up with one leg and is a abused transsexual per- indigenous person, like my voice actually carries more weight than yours." And it's like-
- CWChris Williamson
And I've got gluten intolerance.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Yeah. [laughs] And it's, it's like at a certain point it's like who fucking care... Like what are you gonna do?
- CWChris Williamson
Correct.
- SPSpeaker
Right? Like what... It, it, you can't, uh, you can't like just sit around measuring your pain every day as if it's like, uh, you know, it, it, it earns you merit badges.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. I've had to pull this up. This is one of the best takes. So Alex Hormozi got in trouble for saying this, the same thing.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That nobody owes you patience just 'cause you've had a rough day or a hard upbringing.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And he wrote a response. This is fucking money by him. "If you had disadvantages, I agree with you. You are right. It's harder to be successful if X happened to you. Replace X with gender, race, birth deformity, different language, different country, abuse, et cetera. The main point of the longer conversation is that despite the disadvantage, you only have one choice. What are you gonna do about it? Number one, take action anyway and become proof to other people like you, your people, also born into this abused tragedy, that you too can overcome it, and they can as well. Number two, blame and complain. And to be clear, do whatever you want. I support your choice, but only one of those decisions will make you better. And I wish I could say this without getting attacked, but you know who wins by you not being successful? Whoever and whatever you blame."
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
"Fuck that and fuck them. You can lead a rebellion of one and blame the one thing you can control, which is you. In your mind, redefine the word blame as give power to."
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"And when you do that, there's only one person you're gonna wanna give more power to, and that's you. For everyone who had shitty circumstances, I'm on your side, your long-term side, the side that wants you to win. So do it anyway."With all the disadvantages and still tell them to shove it and win. I want to be clear again. If you had tough shit happen to you, it sucks and that's not your fault. But now what? Where do we go? Like-
- SPSpeaker
Isn't it, isn't it crazy how many caveats and like, you know-
- CWChris Williamson
Throat clearing land acknowledgments?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, yeah. [laughs] Yes, yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, I got in-- I, I con- I continue, I continue to fucking get in trouble by saying things that to some people doesn't land right and to other people becomes a mantra that they live by.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And yeah, the, the... I understand because creating any goal to aim for and degree of obligation can make people who feel like that's out of reach for a reason that isn't their fault feel like they are being made to pay twice for something that hurt them.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And that fucking blows. But it also makes communication really clunky, and I hate it.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- 54:48 – 1:10:57
Choose Someone Who Chooses You
- CWChris Williamson
If you have to explain to somebody why you deserve respect, then you're already in the wrong relationship, full stop.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
People don't realize that you shouldn't have to ask someone to prioritize you. You shouldn't have to beg them to be proud of you. If their efforts have to be requested, then it's not really effort. It's like compliance, and compliance fades the second you stop asking. So reallyIt's just a performance. They're just doing it to placate you and keep you satisfied and stop you from complaining. The right person will treat you well because that's who they are. They just fundamentally care about you regardless of how other things are going. Not because you gave them a checklist or a deadline, but because you are just somebody that they value. So if you feel like you have to train someone to just be a decent partner for you, they've already kind of told you everything you need to know. You probably just don't want to hear it.
- SPSpeaker
I'm, I'm gonna amend that because that, that works great. You know, that's, I th- that's probably one of my reels on Instagram or something. Um, but I'm gonna amend that. I'm gonna say that that is true in the macro, not necessarily true in the micro. Like, let me, let me explain this. So if somebody is egregiously disrespectful consistently, like you are constantly fighting for them to even acknowledge you, pay attention to you, care about you, like do anything, um, that in and of itself is, is unfixable to a certain degree. Because like if there are certain just base layer requirements for a healthy relationship-
- CWChris Williamson
Yep
- SPSpeaker
... um, that the fact you have to request them means that it's... They are non-transactional by nature, so as soon as you request them it becomes a transaction and so you, you kinda invalidate whatever is given.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
So if it is, if, if it is on a severity of scale that like there is just nothing present at all, the amendment, the, the nuance that I will add to that is that there are often cases within a relationship that is already well established on trust where somebody is just kind of dropping the ball and, uh, and is not showing up in the way that even they would intend to show up.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Not acknowledging certain things. Maybe has a blind spot around something. Maybe is going through something, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- SPSpeaker
You know, uh, has some difficulties going on in their lives. So it's one of those cases where it's like it's... I think it is margin- like on the margins it is not only normal but it's healthy to ask like say like, "Hey, I'm kind of feeling unacknowledged or unappreciated in our relationship right now. Like can you, can we work on this? Can you help me out here? It'd be nice if you did this or did that or, you know, showed up to my birthday party or whatever."
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Um, but if it is on such a macro scale that like you are asking for it to exist in the first place-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... then it, then it's there's nothing there. Um, and I think, I think the reason this resonated r- I think the reason this resonated so much is because there are so many people out there who are... they confuse that, that macro problem with the micro problem.
- CWChris Williamson
Correct.
- SPSpeaker
Right? So they're, they're in a relationship with somebody who's like gives zero shits, is not showing up for anything, is not acknowledging anything and in their head it's actually just a marginal issue-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- SPSpeaker
... of like, "Hey, it'd be nice if you like answered my phone sometimes."
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
You know, like, um, so anyway that's, that's some nuance to apply to that.
- CWChris Williamson
There's a difference between telling somebody that they should think of you and explaining what your love language is.
- SPSpeaker
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
Right?
- SPSpeaker
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
Like there's a difference between asking somebody to show up and explaining how you would like them to show up.
- SPSpeaker
Correct.
- CWChris Williamson
This person is applying effort, they're being thoughtful, they're considering me. They're just maybe doing it in a, a different sort of a way than it would maybe be optimal.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- 1:10:57 – 1:21:01
Is Learning Just a Form of Procrastination?
- CWChris Williamson
That's rpstrength.com/modernwisdom and MODERNWISDOM at checkout. Beware, learning more is a smart person's favorite form of procrastination.
- SPSpeaker
Guilty. So fucking guilty. Um, I, I, I think, I think this is... You know, learning is safe to a smart person. It's something they know they're good at. It's something... It feels like progress. Um, and it's relatively easy to convince yourself that it is going to help you do the thing when it finally comes time to do the thing. Um, but you and I know that's, like, not always the ca- It's often not the case. And, and there is such a thing as, um, cramming too much information into your brain, 'cause then you start, you know, creating obsession, perfectionism. Um, you actually generate anxiety where there, where there was less before. Um, so yeah, I, I mean, the, the learning as procrastination, that, I mean, that's just, that's like fucking bread and butter for this industry.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
It's, it's everybody struggles with that. Like, you know, we, we all like to think, "Well, let me, you know, let me just buy a couple more books on this and then, then I'll start."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
"Then I'll figure it out. Then I'll know what to do." And it's... The truth is, is you need both simultaneously. You need to learn, but you need to-
- CWChris Williamson
Practice
- SPSpeaker
... you need to do things.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I think about this with, um, people who constantly go back to couples counseling.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
You know, if your relationship is held together on a biweekly co-journaling session to work through the difficulties of the last three days and regular therapy and CBT, you know, after a while, like, this is just you putting off the fact that this thing isn't working.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And the same thing goes for learning more is a smart person's favorite form of procrastination. If, if you keep on learning, you never actually have to engage with the fact that this thing might be too difficult for you to achieve, that you might not be good enough, or that you could be good enough, but it's gonna take an awful lot of work, and you're insulating yourself, right?
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
You're inoculating yourself from the pain of potentially failing publicly by postponing your stepping onto the stadium floor privately.
- SPSpeaker
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
"I don't need to do it." And, uh, I guess-
- SPSpeaker
Well, it... You bring up an interesting thing with the marriage counseling because, uh, I would say in the, in theThe personal development world, the self-help world, um, you could easily replace learning with insight. Insight. Gaining more insight is, can also be a smart person's way of procrastinating. And you see this a lot of people who sign up for a million seminars and they need a n-
- CWChris Williamson
That's what I was thinking about, yeah
- SPSpeaker
... they need three, thri-
- CWChris Williamson
I'm gonna do the Hoffman Process and IFS and Tantra
- SPSpeaker
... three coaches-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... and I'm gonna go do this, like, meditation retreat and ayahuasca and like, uh, you know, over and over and over again. And it's, at s- at a certain point you need to digest all of the insight that you've gained, and the only way you digest is by, like, living and doing other things.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
I'm curious, like, where, where have you procrastinated by learning more? 'Cause I mean, clearly you like learning.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. Where have I procrastinated by learning more? Well, before I started the show, just one example.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
I knew I wanted to do a podcast at the start of or the middle of 2017, but it took me until the February of 2018 to launch because I was working on what's the perfect name gonna be. That took, like, two months to come up with Modern Wisdom.
- SPSpeaker
Crushing, Crushing Tuesday.
- 1:21:01 – 1:24:57
Should We Prioritise Starting a Family?
- CWChris Williamson
workout window must be pre-digested and ensure that the... Like, no. No, no, no.
- SPSpeaker
Can I put you on the spot?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
So I think it was maybe two years ago, maybe a year... No, maybe two years. There was a, a point wh- like I-- a couple of years ago I saw you and you said that you, or maybe it was one of your Q&As, you said that you were going to make, um, finding a wife, starting a family, like a big priority.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Do you think you're doing this with that, like finding more insight or do you feel like you're making headway?
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, trying my best. One of the challenges there is that you can't do it solo.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
Right? Uh, you can put all of the time in that you want, but inherently what you have to do is have another person to dance with.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
So, uh, certainly to a degree. I think I wanted to bring this up about a talking point that both you and Scott Galloway push.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
And I think that it's done in real good faith.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
But speaking as somebody that is the child of that, the, the progeny of that philosophy-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, I think contributes to it and this is the single most important decision that you make in your life will be the person that you choose to spend it with.
- SPSpeaker
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
And this may be an important piece of advice for many people, maybe even most people who don't think about that, who fall backward into a relationship with someone they met when they were 24.
- SPSpeaker
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
And then before they know it, they're kind of living together, but they didn't really choose it and they've kind of got a dog and then I guess we're engaged and fuck we've got a kid. Do I like this person? Like are we, are we actually good for each other?
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And they were too unintentional about it.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But on the flip side, especially as people are dating older and older now, that advice I think can create an awful lot of anxiety and it's meant to say, treat this decision with appropriate care-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... because it's very influential.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But I do think that, and I've said this too, right? 'Cause I believe it.
- SPSpeaker
Right.
- 1:24:57 – 1:32:53
Why Neediness is Pushes People Away
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... and a revolving door for the other party.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] Yes, pretty much.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
All right. Neediness occurs when you place a higher priority on what others think of you than what you think of yourself. Anytime you alter your words or behavior to fit someone else's needs rather than your own, that's needy. Anytime you lie about your interests, hobbies, or background, that's needy. Anytime you pursue a goal to impress others rather than fulfill yourself, that's needy. Whereas most people focus on what behavior is attractive or unattractive, what determines neediness and therefore attractiveness is the why behind your behavior. You can say the coolest thing or do what everyone else does, but if you do it for the wrong reason, you will come off as needy and desperate and turn people off.
- SPSpeaker
Pulling out the classics.
- CWChris Williamson
That's an old one too.
- SPSpeaker
The old hits. That's from Models.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
It's gonna be 15 years old this year
- CWChris Williamson
Unreal. Everyone needs to go and read it, dude.
- SPSpeaker
It is.
- CWChris Williamson
Anyone that needs a new book, go and read an old book, and then that is now an old book.
- SPSpeaker
It is.
- CWChris Williamson
So that and Mate by Jeffrey Miller and Tucker Max are the two-car garage of dating books for men.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That's it, and it's still relevant now.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's mad that like, hey, a T-shirt that fits-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
... and jeans that don't have stains on them is still probably revolutionary advice-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... for a lot of guys.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But yeah, it's, it's fucking, it's money.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
But the whole thesis of that book, for the people that haven't read it-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... neediness is unattractive.
- 1:32:53 – 1:44:14
Does Hate Make People Dig Their Heels in?
- SPSpeaker
because you're so psychologically dependent on it. Um, I... Fun thing, so I name-checked you. Um, I did... You know Jubilee Surrounded?
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
So I just shot an episode with them.
- CWChris Williamson
What for? What was the thing?
- SPSpeaker
One man versus the manosphere.
- CWChris Williamson
No fucking way. You went up against the manosphere?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Who was in the room? Anyone that I'd know?
- SPSpeaker
Um, I don't think so.
- CWChris Williamson
No big names.
- SPSpeaker
No.
- CWChris Williamson
No huge names.
- SPSpeaker
No.
- CWChris Williamson
There's been a couple of that just did... I'm fucking fascinated by this.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
A couple of them had, uh, people who were sort of moderately well known-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... going in, but maybe you're not deep in the manosphere enough to know who was that.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, I... Maybe, who knows? Maybe there was a guy there that, that is kind of in-
- CWChris Williamson
Fascinating that they chose you, especially somebody who came out of that world. That's a unique choice. That's cool.
- SPSpeaker
It, it's interesting 'cause I, I, I told the producers, I was like, in, in the pre-production phase-
- CWChris Williamson
I'm proto-manosphere.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, yeah. I told them, I was like... Well, first of all, they were concerned. They were like, "Are you ready for it?" I'm like, "Dude, I'm... The first five years of my career I spent arguing with these fucking guys, so like, yes, I'm more than prepared." Um, I know all the evolutionary psych and all their, like silly theories. Um, but it was interesting 'cause I told them, I was like, "You realize that like half these guys are probably gonna be fans of mine, and they, they're gonna have read my book." And, and they were actually all for it. So they were like, "No, no, no, this is... Like, we kinda want this dynamic."
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Um, so it was really interesting. Uh, it actually went really well. They were like way more respectful than I expected, and um, and some of them were super smart, which I, I've been around enough of those guys to know that like a lot of them are super well-read.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Um, but it, it, it was funny because afterwards a few of them were like... They said, they're like, "I can't believe we debated you. I thought w- I thought I was gonna be debating like some women's studies professor or, you know, from UCSF or something." Um, but I, I name-checked you because, like one of the things that, m- one of my talking points was like, I, I said, "It's, it's... The manosphere is the incorrect solution to the correct problem." The correct problem is young men are struggling. There's a real crisis going on, and it's not talked about enough, and you and I both know that. But this is not what's gonna work. Like this is, this is not helping. Um, and so the issue isn't... And, and then of course a lot of the guys came with like, "Well, there's this great advice," and like, "Andrew Tate got me to like get my life together." I'm like, "That's great," but the problem isn't the advice, you know, the seed of advi- advice embedded within the manosphere content. It's, the problem is the packaging. [laughs] Like you can go find that advice anywhere, and it's great that that particular packaging reached you in that moment, but you need to be able to let it go. Um, and so, uh, a couple of the guys there were like, "Oh, well, then what should we listen to instead?" And anyway, I, I, I threw your name into the, into the-
- CWChris Williamson
Fucking go, dude. I'm, I'm sufficiently sanitized. I've got the seal of approval.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Like I appreciate that. Hey, man, I, I fucking, uh, I think this is... I've said this to Mack. I know Jordan's in, in a bad way at the moment, but-
- 1:44:14 – 1:50:13
Why Everything Worth Having Requires Sacrifice
- CWChris Williamson
Limitations
- SPSpeaker
... those limitations, the, the friction-
- CWChris Williamson
I agree. That's actually
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. This is similar to one of yours. You only envy the lives of people whose sacrifices you can't see.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean, it's, it's easy, it's easy to just want the benefits of something. Like it's, it's so... It's the default, right? Like, uh, it's almost childish to just want the benefits of something. Um, it's, it's a very naive way of seeing the world. And I think it's, not only is it important to want the cost of something, check and make sure you want the cost of something before you actually start pursuing it. But again, it comes back to like that's the part that makes it meaningful.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Right? If you just got the benefits of things, you would never appreciate those things.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
It's the fact that you like struggled and sacrificed and crawled through shit.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. Isn't that a wonderful duality? You only envy the lives of people whose sacrifices you can't see. So if you could see the cost that somebody had to pay in order to get to where they are, you probably wouldn't want the life. But if you were able to get to the place that they got to without the sacrifices-
- SPSpeaker
You wouldn't appreciate it
- CWChris Williamson
... bingo.
- SPSpeaker
It, it, it's the, it's the Elon quote you mentioned earlier, right? It's like you don't want... You wouldn't like to be me.
- CWChris Williamson
No. My mind's a storm.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
People think they want to be me. They don't want to be me. Yeah. There's a line from James Clear that plays off this, which this is one of the best things that I've read over the last few years. It doesn't make sense to continue wanting something if you're not willing to do what it takes to get it. If you don't want to live the lifestyle, then release yourself from the desire. To crave the result but not the process is to guarantee disappointment.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Fucking money.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
It's such money because how many people want something? But George Max got this idea, the, the difference between Call of Duty and war. He says a lot of the time people think that they would love to play Call of Duty all the time, but that's not what war is.
- SPSpeaker
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
War is the smell of burnt gunpowder and your friend getting his leg blown off.
- SPSpeaker
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
And y- you want to become a musician. You want to become a world famous guitarist. You go, "Okay, well, what does that look like?"
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
You're gonna have to learn to play guitar for a decade to no one, and then if and when you start a band, you're gonna be playing also to no one with no promise of whether or not this is going to work.
- SPSpeaker
L- let me cut you off there because that was my life.
- CWChris Williamson
I remember.
- SPSpeaker
So, [laughs] so no. The rea- that's it. That's-
- 1:50:13 – 2:10:42
10 Years of Therapy Summarised into 1 Minute
- SPSpeaker
England
- CWChris Williamson
... it's highly, that's highly offensive.
- SPSpeaker
I love England. I, I do.
- CWChris Williamson
And you... Good. Good, good, good.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, here's 10 years of therapy summarized in one minute.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Number one, no one is coming to save you. Being a functioning adult means realizing you are responsible for everything in your life, even if it wasn't your faultNumber two, strong boundaries make for good relationships. Weak boundaries make drama. Number three, many of your problems don't get fixed. You just learn how to live despite them. Number four, your mind lies to you all the time. It will tell you that the world is ending when it's not, that a mistake is fatal when it's not, that everyone is thinking about you and laughing about you when they're not. Learn how to tell your mind to shut the fuck up. Number five, stop trying to convince people to like you. The right people won't need to be convinced, and everyone else is just gonna get very annoyed. Number six, sometimes the best thing you can do is let a dream die. No one likes to hear that, but it's true. And number seven, only a few people in your life are gonna matter in the long run. When you find them, treat them right, make time for them, keep them close, and be grateful.
- SPSpeaker
You know, sometimes when I, when I put together stuff like that, I, I, I'm... Like, hearing you read that back to me, like, the, the thought that comes to mind is like, how is this not taught in schools? Like, how, [chuckles] how are we just... How is this not just part of-
- CWChris Williamson
Discover this at 34.
- SPSpeaker
Right. [laughs] Like, why, why do people have to listen to podcasts all day to, like, hear some of this stuff?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Um, I, I... It just seems so fundamental. You know, but it, it is interesting. One of the things, one of the things that my perspective has shifted, you know, I've been doing this for 17 years now.
- CWChris Williamson
Too long.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, a long, yeah, a long time. Um, and when I look at, at things that I've, I've either changed my mind about or changed my perspective on through- over the course of my career, I think one of the big ones is that, you know, early in my career, I, I, I really thought it was all about just, like, ideas, information, knowledge, right? It's like finding... There's, like, a few pieces of key knowledge that if you can kinda figure it out, if you can dig through enough psych studies and find the application, like, it's just gonna be a key that unlocks all these areas of your life. And I think if you are a consumer of personal growth advice, like, that the experience you have often feels that way.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
But I don't think that's true. I think actually what is true is that there are just certain concepts, ideas, um, principles that are pretty obvious and y- we all kind of already know them, but we, we lose... It's, it's extremely difficult to keep them in front of our-
- CWChris Williamson
Yep
- SPSpeaker
... face-
- CWChris Williamson
Yep
- SPSpeaker
... through day-to-day life, and so we need, we need rituals and reminders consistently.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
And I actually think that for most of human history, I think religion was that mechanism of those reminders to, like, keep people like, "Hey, nobody's..." Like, "You're responsible for this. Hey, treat people well. That person matters." You know? Like, "Let go of the, the small stuff."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Um, but I think in, in our modern, our modern world, you know, it's people, most people are losing that. And so you're, you're almost seeing this, like, reinvention of those rituals online through, like, what you and I do-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... through podcasts and Instagram and YouTube and all this stuff of... And, and I do it as well, right? It's like I've got my shows and, and I've got the channels I follow and the people I follow, and it's like they... It's, it's not that any individual piece of information is, like, changing my life, unlocking this whole area of my life. It's just like, "Oh yeah, it's a good reminder."
- CWChris Williamson
That's so true. I think because the modern world is filled with novelty, anything that we've seen before we don't usually want to hear again.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
We think, "Well, I already know that," even if you don't. Even if there's 10 things that you basically just need to hear over and over again, what you need to do, I think, is play the game of novelty whilst just redelivering the same core message.
- 2:10:42 – 2:14:21
How to Make Your Life Count
- SPSpeaker
man. It wa- y- it was crazy. It's, it's a weird world, man.
- CWChris Williamson
Sorry to interrupt your scrolling, but this is a friendly reminder that your time on this earth is extremely limited, and everyone you love is going to die one day. So maybe you should put the fucking phone away and go and do something meaningful.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] Dude, the, the death salience thing is just, it's, it's, it's magical, isn't it? Isn't the Memento Mori, like, it's just so magical and e- and especially like es- uh, I guess with like, you know, the doom scrolling kids these days, like, it, it is, um, it, it's such an important practice, I think, to just, like, take that moment, not every day, but like periodically of like, is this... If I were to die soon, is this what I would wanna be doing?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
You know? If when I'm 80, am I gonna look back and be proud of what I'm doing? Um, and it's, that, that's one of those things I'm glad how memetic that is.
- CWChris Williamson
Correct.
- SPSpeaker
It, it's... 'Cause I remember, I, [chuckles] I remember, so in "Subtle Art," the last chapter is called And Then You Die, and I remember my, my publisher was like, "You know, this is kinda dark. Are you sure?" You know, publisher things.
- CWChris Williamson
Supposed to finish it on an up note.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, exactly. Um, be all inspiring and, and everything. Um, but I felt really strongly about it 'cause it's just like the, the kind of being confronted with death had been, like, so impactful in my life. Um, and it, it was a big part of stoic philosophy, Buddhist philosophy, a bunch of different philosophies. Um, that's one thing that I never expected to be memetic, but it is incredibly memetic, and it is. I'm, like, thrilled with how much traction that gets and, and that people do resonate with it, and they do find value in it, and they do respond to it and engage in it. Um, so yeah, I just, I just think it's, it's a great practice. I'm glad that people stop scrolling and think about it.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I... A few questions that I think are useful. What do you regret from the last year? Like, what do you regret that you did too much of and not enough of? Typically, that's the same stuff that you did for the last decade, but you can't remember the last decade.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
So if you look at the last 12 months of your life, what did you do too much of and what did you do too little of? If you wanted to make 85-year-old you as miserable as possible-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
... when they look back on their life-
- SPSpeaker
Oh, that would be easy. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
What would you, what would you do? What would you do more of? What would you do less of? You know, I mean, there's that famous, uh, five regrets of the dying.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Right? Wish I'd allowed myself to be happy. I wish I kept in touch with my friends more. Uh, I wish I hadn't worked so much. It-- we are maybe just about to breach the first wave of people who are, had a good chunk of their life spent on their smartphone and on devices who are about to die. It has to be number one.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It has to be number one.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
There's no way that I wish I'd spent less time looking at a screen. Like, it, it just has to jump to the top of the charts. As soon as that wave of people begin to die en masse-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... and it's still probably, what? Like smartphone's been around 20, just under 20 years now. So it's 65, 70. Like it's still not, it's still not quite there.
- SPSpeaker
A couple more decades. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah. One, one more decade and that's gonna start, but within two it's just gonna be fucking-
- SPSpeaker
I don't know, man. I've seen some good memes.
- CWChris Williamson
That's true.
- SPSpeaker
Some really good memes.
- CWChris Williamson
That is true, but you've never been the subject of them. That's why.
- 2:14:21 – 2:21:41
Stop Waiting For Permission
- CWChris Williamson
part, people aren't gonna make a meme about you on the internet.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I think that's the way you should go. All right, last one.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
At some point, you realize that the permission you've been waiting for all along was your own.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. It... I think so often we seek advice when really all we want is somebody to just tell us it's okay.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
It's okay to want what we want. It's okay to stop doing something, to change our mind, um, to be wrong about something. Um, I don't, I don't get... It's, it's in- interesting. You know, back in the day, I used to get a lot of emails, like fan emails and stuff, people asking for questions for advice. Um, I still get some, but it, it is amazing how many emails, messages, questions I get that it, it... You can really just boil it down toThis person feels bad about something and just wants to be told it's okay-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... to feel bad about it.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And or this person wants to do something but they're afraid and they just need somebody to say, "No, no, you should do that."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
That's it. That's all they want. They don't need a, a fucking theory or a framework or, you know, a full like breakdown of their childhood trauma. They d- they just need somebody to say like, "It's okay. You, you should do that."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
"It seems important to you."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I think the world is kind of split into two groups of people, people who don't know how to improve their lives and those who are too scared to start. And the first group doesn't care. Like they're gonna do what they do. They're not going to overthink it. And then there's another group that's paralyzed by their capacity to think. Obviously, there's people that manage to overcome that. But almost anybody who is thoughtful and making shit happen in the world has had to overcome their thoughtfulness.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like the thoughtfulness is the fuel, but it's also the barrier to getting there because as we said right at the top, like the degree of uncertainty that you have is paralyzing. It keeps you in place.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So yeah, someone coming along and going, "Hey man, like it's okay to want that thing," or, "It's okay to not think that that thing's cool. You should try and do that thing."
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"You just should and close the loop, and that's fine." And I describe myself as having a lifestyle wide praise kink [laughs] which-
- SPSpeaker
What the fuck is that? [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
I respond well to encouragement. I respond really fucking well to encouragement.
- SPSpeaker
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
And there's, again, there's two types of British people.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
There's British people who thrive on mutual piss taking.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- 2:21:41 – 2:22:29
Find Out More About Mark
- CWChris Williamson
cool.
- SPSpeaker
Same man. Same.
- CWChris Williamson
Thank you.
- SPSpeaker
Um, cool. Thank you.
- CWChris Williamson
What's, where people go? App?
- SPSpeaker
Oh. Uh, markmanson.net, Solve Podcast and, uh, purpose.app. Free seven-day trial. Check it out.
- CWChris Williamson
Mark Manson in your pocket but without the touchy feely thing?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. So it's, it's an AI that's, that's optimized to challenge you. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- SPSpeaker
... so it call, call you out on your bullshit, spot blind spots, challenge your assumptions. Um, basically all the things like a good coach would do-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- SPSpeaker
... to help you grow instead of just, you know, kiss your ass and make you feel good.
- CWChris Williamson
Unreal. Appreciate you man. Until next time.
- SPSpeaker
Thanks. [outro music] Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, YouTube knows who you are deeply. It thinks you're gonna like this one even more. Go on, press it
Episode duration: 2:22:30
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