317 Miles: Pushing The Limits Of Possibility - Ross Edgley

1. 0:00 – 6:15

   Ross’s Recent Swimming Achievements

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      Take me through, uh, eh, w- what you've just done. What have you just completed?

   2. RERoss Edgley0:05

      Yeah, yeah. So, uh, I suppose after swimming around Great Britain, so the 157 days, 1,780 miles, uh, that was the world's longest stage sea swim. So stage just means basically that you swim to a certain waypoint, you get out on the boat, and then you start from that waypoint. You keep going until you go all the way around Great Britain. I sort of had this idea and sort of fascination with a, a nonstop continuous swim, which is just basically no sleeping, no touching land, no one can touch you. I don't know why, it just ignited a bit of a curiosity in me. Uh, tried a few times in different bodies of water, uh, Loch Ness, which didn't go entirely to plan.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:40

      Yeah. Go through, go through what happened with Loch Ness and the Italian one.

   4. RERoss Edgley0:43

      That's right. So, so Loch Ness was the first one, and, uh, that was, uh, 2022. Um, it was all to raise awareness around ocean conservation, uh, doing some brilliant work with Talisker and Parley, uh, protecting marine ecosystems around the world. We had everything set up. Like, I mean, Loch Ness is a body of water that you don't take lightly. Um, it's as long as the English Channel. The way that the wind picks up, so it's a massive funnel, so you'll just end up getting 10-foot waves. We're already pushing it into the winter, and then, um, the Queen actually died the day that we were meant to start. So obviously, out of sheer respect, you know, the entire country shut down. Then I sort of sat there knowing full well, and as a team, we're like, "Okay, this is now getting into the winter," which i- i- it goes from being ambitious to a, a little bit stupid. Um, but with all of that said, the goal was always to raise awareness around ocean conservation. So I was like, "Do you know what? Not ideal conditions, but, but let's go." So I sort of set off knowing, not to say it was doomed to fail, but, you know, the, the odds were stacked against us. Um, things were going pretty well, 53 hours in, uh, and then it just kind of went dark. And then I remember just waking up, a hospital bed seeing my mum (laughs) and my girlfriend, and I was like, "Ah, it's not gone well, has it?" (laughs) And they were like, "No, it's not." Uh, hypothermia, cellulitis was actually what stopped it, which is, uh, where the wetsuit was chafing, so bacteria infection. Uh, but basically when that gets in your lymph nodes or bloodstream, it can be fatal. So, so glad that the team sort of called it and the doctor did, uh, when they did. Fast-forward another year and I thought, "Do you know what? Let's get away from the cold. Let's go somewhere warm." Went to Italy, Tressimino. Seemed like a good idea at the time. Again, uh, paid for the boat, paid for crew, everybody's out there. And then, uh, an anticyclone from the Sahara Desert (laughs) ends up in Tresamino, which is kind of this huge dome as well, so it just became a massive sauna. Uh, but because of the authorities in Italy, they basically say, "If you're gonna swim in that lake," uh, you pay for permits, organized permits, it has to happen at that time. We flew camera crews out and, and crew, i- it had to happen. So we set off, I think in the shallows the water was like 36, 37. Uh, for those who-

   5. CWChris Williamson2:50

      Celsius?

   6. RERoss Edgley2:51

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson2:51

      In freedom units, that's 100-ish.

   8. RERoss Edgley2:54

      Yeah, it was, yeah. It was, it was a bath, it was a jacuzzi. You know, which, um, FINA, uh, the governing body for open water swimming, so often they will cancel events where it's anywhere just over 30, 'cause it j- it just becomes dangerous. So I knew, you know, that that wasn't gonna be great. But again, (laughs) we tried our very best, we set off. And actually, what's really strange is I'm really proud of that particular metric. Um, it was a great swim, uh, doctors and friends of mine ever since were just like, "Ross, that was rhabdo waiting to happen," it's where the muscles essentially break down and liquify and end up in your bloodstream, which is something you don't want to happen. Um, they were like, "We're amazed you went as far as you did." So in a weird way, with all the data we collected around that, I remain weirdly proud of it. Um (laughs) -

   9. CWChris Williamson3:38

      Like human guinea pig yourself, even though you didn't achieve your, your goal. So how far d'you go on, uh, swim one and how far on swim two?

   10. RERoss Edgley3:44

       Um, so I, uh, don't actually know on swim one, because it all went dark and I, it all got a little bit... And then people had to basically jump in and pull me out, and as soon as you do that, the swim's over. So we don't know the metrics on that one. Uh, but the 53-hour duration was something (laughs) I'm quite proud of (laughs) .

   11. CWChris Williamson3:58

       Mm-hmm.

   12. RERoss Edgley3:58

       Um, and then what was strange with the Tresamino swim, because we went between two islands, um, so it was basically 70 kilometer between the o- n- uh, all the islands, but with the wiggle room it was getting up over 100. Um, which again, in those conditions, I was weirdly proud of. Um, but we then sat there, fast-forwarding out this year, and I just thought, with all the, the data that we have available to us, um, there was this allure of a river swim, a nonstop river swim. So basically, there's a, there's a, uh, it's called the Yukon River Quest, where people paddle and kayak down there in boats every single year, a annual event, an amazing event. I sat there with my girlfriend, just looking on the internet one day and I was like, "Oh, if you can kayak it, you, you can swim it (laughs) , in theory." Reached out to the, uh, health and safety team there, uh, the organizers out there, they said, "Yeah, yeah, in theory if you avoid whitewater rapids, bears, wolves, you know, there's, there's a chance you could do it." Um, the team out there were incredible. The way that they read the river, uh, was just insane. It w- it was such a team event and essentially, this was last week now, um, set off from, uh, Whitehorse, uh, in, in Canada and swam 510 kilometers (laughs) over about 60 hours total expedition time. And, uh, set the record for the longest nonstop river swim. Eventually (laughs) we got one (laughs) .

   13. CWChris Williamson5:24

       Is that different to doing it in a lake? Have you got assistance from big streams? Is this gonna be contested in some way?

   14. RERoss Edgley5:30

       Oh, it's exactly that. Yeah, I'm glad you asked that. So, so c- there's different categories for different... So this would be classed as an assisted swim, so it's very different from a lake where there's no tide or current.

   15. CWChris Williamson5:39

       Mm-hmm.

   16. RERoss Edgley5:40

       Uh, but with all of that said, it then comes with its own challenges as well, because as you're kind of getting pushed down by the river, it might take you down one route where you know that's leading to whitewater rapids, a logjam, uh, you're just gonna get impaled on some rocks. So you, so it's almost like interval sprinting-

   17. CWChris Williamson5:56

       Mm.

   18. RERoss Edgley5:57

       ... for 510 kilometers, 'cause you're the boat, so you've got to essentially have enough power to steer your-

   19. CWChris Williamson6:03

       Navigate around things.

   20. RERoss Edgley6:04

       ... e- exactly. So, so it's very different. And I think that's the beauty of, um, open water swimming is there's so many classifications and categories. Um, this is just...... you know, a non-stop river

2. 6:15 – 11:05

   Preparing for Different Scales of Events

   1. RERoss Edgley6:15

      swim.

   2. CWChris Williamson6:15

      Talk to me about preparation. You did a lot of preparation for the Great British Swim. You've got this really interesting insight about size actually being an advantage, even though people might think it's not. And then w- what did you learn? Great British Swim into Loch Ness, into Italy, into Canada. How did preparation change? And explain what your training looked like.

   3. RERoss Edgley6:35

      Yeah. And do you know, I'm so glad you asked that just because I think preparation is so different for these sorts of events. 'Cause people sort of think of swimming as just swimming, it's all-encompassing. But it, but it's... For me, it, it's so different. Like, you couldn't compare, uh, me to sort of Adam Peaty, for instance. Like, Adam Peaty, good friend of mine, greatest breaststroker the world has ever seen. You know, you look at him, he is a mako shark, he's a white shark. He looks phenomenal. Broad shoulders, six-foot plus. He's amaze-... And in the water, he's poetic. You look at his technique. I am a chubby whale shark (laughs) at best. You know, I'm very different. And they're two different disciplines. Um, but I love that, because I say so many people have like a swimming superpower. You know, some people are incredible. Adam Peaty is rapid, he's poetic. You look at him. I'm just stubborn. You know, I'm, I'm stubborn, I can eat lots, (laughs) and I won't give up. And I think that's the sort of difference, uh, between the different disciplines. So preparation for this was, was really different, because with most swimmers you would say, "How's your technique? High-elbow catch? Are you bilaterally breathing? Is it a two-beat, a four-beat leg kick?" All these technical things. Whereas when you're 60 hours in, none of that makes any sense. You're just like, "Am I still kicking my legs? Am I still afloat?" That- that- that's literally all you're concerned with. So, preparation for this was like not necessarily building, uh, a faster body, it was building a more robust body. Because speed wasn't gonna be what determined success or not. It was, is a ligament tendon gonna give up? Uh, gastrointestinal distress as well. Almost training the digestive system, that's another thing as well. Studies looking at how competitive eaters, they have an adaptation in their stomachs. So now actually endurance athletes are saying, "Hang on, we can actually learn from competitive eaters." So all of these things, actually preparing for a, a non-stop continuous swim, training looks very, very different to what a conventional Olympic swimmer would be.

   4. CWChris Williamson8:28

      How are you preparing the ligaments? What does this look like from a training perspective?

   5. RERoss Edgley8:32

      Strength training. Yeah, I think with all training modalities, people look at, uh, you know, proprioception, kinesthetic awareness, uh, uh, agility, mobility, all these sorts of things. Whereas strength as a training modality, it's called me- mechanotransduction. So, people will think in terms of weights, stress and stimuli makes the muscles strong. Yes, absolutely that is true, but it's also the ligaments and tendons at the same time. So again, it's so counterintuitive because there's some swimmers who won't touch weights in fear it will affect their mobility, uh, their proprioception, kinesthetic in the water. Whereas with me, it was very much just trying to build this big, robust body. I- I think, again, to- to use Adam Peaty as an example, he is a Formula 1 car. He, he is... Everything on him is refined. It's unbelievable. It- it's designed to make him the fastest human in the water. I am a big truck (laughs) . I'm a tractor. (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson9:25

      An F-150. Yeah, or a John Deere tractor.

   7. RERoss Edgley9:28

      (laughs) Is exactly it, yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson9:29

      Okay, what about the gastrointestinal preparation? What did that look like?

   9. RERoss Edgley9:34

      Do you know what? I, this was my favorite prep actually. So, uh, shout out to James Morton, he was the nutritionist for Team Sky when they won the Tour de France. And he does some amazing research just into looking at not only the carbohydrates and, uh, or- or calories that you can tolerate, but the calories that you can assimilate at the same time. And that's really important, because up until recently, people thought 60 to 80 grams of carbs every hour on the hour was the upper limit of what you could actually digest. Whereas there's a study looking at different os- osmolality, digestion of carbs, we found that we've been able to push that to 120 grams of carbohydrates every hour on the hour. But what we were doing with James Morton, and this was fascinating, I- I found it helped so much, is when you're looking at just marginal gains, is we did that 120 grams of carbs every hour on the hour, but then also on top of that used MCTs, so medium-chain triglycerides that are very different to long-chain triglycerides, 'cause they act more like a carbohydrate. So essentially what we're doing is just trying to take the digestive system and say, "How much can we put through every single hour without actually it sort of detrimental, you know, the- the sort of digestive system imploding, as it were?" Um, and on that note, you know, for anyone sort of wanting to trial it, MCTs are something that you have to train the digestive system. Uh, there are stories of people having, you know, too many, uh, during lap-

   10. CWChris Williamson10:56

       Explosive.

   11. RERoss Edgley10:56

       (laughs) You-

   12. CWChris Williamson10:57

       Repercussions.

   13. RERoss Edgley10:58

       You said it, Chris (laughs) . Yeah. Genuinely, yeah, people will literally just (laughs) shit themselves.

   14. CWChris Williamson11:04

       Yes. Yeah, yeah,

3. 11:05 – 17:44

   What Ross Wears for the Events

   1. CWChris Williamson11:05

      yeah. Okay, so, uh, kit.

   2. RERoss Edgley11:08

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson11:08

      What are you wearing? Specially designed, uh, wetsuit of some kind?

   4. RERoss Edgley11:13

      Yeah (laughs) .

   5. CWChris Williamson11:13

      Okay.

   6. RERoss Edgley11:13

      Do you know what? I'll t- Oh, since- since we're on the- the topic of toilets as well, I might as well start with this story. (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson11:19

      Yup.

   8. RERoss Edgley11:19

      The- (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson11:20

      Is there a butt flap? Is there a special butt flap in your wetsuit? How does it work?

   10. RERoss Edgley11:23

       There was a butt flap, Chris.

   11. CWChris Williamson11:24

       Yeah?

   12. RERoss Edgley11:25

       There- there is, but to this day I'm unsure if my, uh, bumhole is in the wrong place or the, uh, the flap was in the wrong place (laughs) .

   13. CWChris Williamson11:32

       Okay. Right, yeah.

   14. RERoss Edgley11:33

       I'm five hours in (laughs) to what was a 60-hour swim. Um, sure enough, signaling to the team, I was like, "Guys," I just went like that, "T," as in, "I'm going to the toilet." They were like, "Cool." Everybody sort of turned their back to- to give me (laughs) my dignity.

   15. CWChris Williamson11:46

       Yup.

   16. RERoss Edgley11:47

       Went to the toilet. It... Let's just say it didn't, it didn't work. It didn't evacuate what it was.

   17. CWChris Williamson11:52

       Right.

   18. RERoss Edgley11:53

       Um, so I am then nursing (laughs) what I was trying to get rid of in my wetsuit for what was essentially, yeah, what, 55 hours, i- in the sun (laughs) . So honestly, Chris, it was so bad. I knew as well, like this- (laughs) this is the thing, I'm just sitting there and I'm swimming and I'm just going, "This is disgusting." But, you know, no one said this would be easy.We got it done, but it wasn't until the end. And again, the team were amazing. It was just made up of just big, hardy, manly Canadians. You know, the sort of men you'd want if you're going into war, like in a hunt.

   19. CWChris Williamson12:27

       Mm-hmm.

   20. RERoss Edgley12:27

       These are big men. And as they're cutting the wetsuit off me because of compression and chafing, I just said, "Guys, I- I-"

   21. CWChris Williamson12:34

       Heads up.

   22. RERoss Edgley12:35

       (laughs) Forewarning.

   23. CWChris Williamson12:37

       I've fermented something.

   24. RERoss Edgley12:38

       (laughs) I... Dude, I'm so sorry. And they went, "No, no, no, it's fine. We've seen all sorts." They cut it off. What was interesting is, Dr. Tom, a very good friend of mine, he said it didn't actually smell, uh, (laughs) like feces at all. Um, he said it was more akin to, uh, burning flesh. Um, (laughs) I was... I couldn't smell anything.

   25. CWChris Williamson12:56

       You'd churned it into butter or whatever you

   26. NANarrator12:58

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   27. RERoss Edgley12:59

       ... equivalent form. Is essentially it. He said it was like a gray powder that had come... I... How that happened, I don't know. But sorry, like I said, the- the big, uh, Canadians, some of them just had to excuse themselves. They've seen... They will gut a bear.

   28. CWChris Williamson13:10

       Mm-hmm.

   29. RERoss Edgley13:10

       You know, they will g- (laughs) they will behead a wolf.

   30. CWChris Williamson13:13

       But you, after t- 55 hours swimming s- slowly mashing poo into your- your own wetsuit.
4. 17:44 – 28:21

   How to Prepare for Fatigue

   1. CWChris Williamson17:44

      Okay, so take me through each different... Or do you think about the swim from a- a mental perspective 60 hours? 60 hours exactly?

   2. RERoss Edgley17:54

      Uh, no, that was total expedition time, so I- I counted. I think it was maybe like 54, 55. I count that 'cause we had to get into position as well.

   3. CWChris Williamson18:00

      Understood. Okay.

   4. RERoss Edgley18:01

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson18:01

      So, 54 hours of actual swimming.

   6. RERoss Edgley18:03

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson18:03

      That's no sleep. That's not touching land. That's not touching a boat. Food is being...... thrown at you.

   8. RERoss Edgley18:09

      Launched at me.

   9. CWChris Williamson18:09

      Used with a, a net-

   10. RERoss Edgley18:11

       Yep.

   11. CWChris Williamson18:11

       I s- I saw The Great British Swim. Um, talk to me about how you think of the, uh, the fatigue part, uh, chunked. Is it the first 24, 36? Like where does... H- how do you think about that?

   12. RERoss Edgley18:25

       It, it changes so much. I think, um, one of the biggest things I've learned from all athletic adventures is you have to outsource common sense. Like, y- you can't trust your own brain. And it's so weird. I know Tim Noakes talks about central governor theory, you know, this idea or psychobiological model of fatigue that, you know, you're so more pow- so much more powerful than your own mind allows you to believe. And essentially what's happening is your brain is a hypochondriac, and it's picking up all of these, these signals from the body going, "Oh, Ross, you're kind of depleting muscle glycogen or neurotransmitters, chemical s- signals in the brain not quite firing." You know, it's giving you all of this, and it's basically g- trying to get you to pull that physiological handbrake. Um, again, people listening, they'll understand that, you know, if we ran a marathon, all of a sudden 18 miles in you hit the wall, you can't go on, your legs are burning, your lungs are on fire, you can't go on. And then what happens all of a sudden at 24 miles, you see your family and friends, everyone starts cheering, you goose step, and you're sprinting to the end of the... Say, "Hang on, wait, you said you were done at 18 miles." And that's essentially the same. It's the same principle but just kind of extended over a longer period of time. And it's knowing that, that you can't trust your own brain. It's a hypochondriac.

   13. CWChris Williamson19:33

       Mm-hmm.

   14. RERoss Edgley19:33

       And then more to that point, your brain as well will find any weakness. And it's, it's so strange speaking like this, 'cause it's almost like you're removing yourself-

   15. CWChris Williamson19:42

       Mm-hmm.

   16. RERoss Edgley19:43

       ... from your brain. But if we were, if we were in the middle of the Yukon and we were doing this, all of a sudden it would be going, "Oh, Chris, w- what... what are you doing here? You shouldn't be in the Yukon. Have you trained, have you trained enough? Did you eat enough? Didn't really sleep last night. How's that shoulder? You know you've had that shoulder injury for a while." And all of a sudden, you get these voices in your head.

   17. CWChris Williamson19:59

       Isn't it funny how the way that the brain delivers these concerns is through a narrative, it's through a story? It's personifying all of the worry and the concern because it could just be pain, right? It could just deliver just straight up pain to you. But it's being, uh, like a press secretary, and it's creating this sort of weird narrative, and it's spinning things at you and... "Oh, you've gone far enough. That's far, that's far enough." Like, you know, "W- what, what if you drown? What if your... what would your parents think? What would your... uh, what about the bearer of the fa- what about that eagle? That eagle's still following you." You know, all of those different things. It's so funny how it uses the very competitive advantage that we have as brains to use theory of mind, to have an internal dialogue. It uses that as the, uh, the governor.

   18. RERoss Edgley20:42

       It's exactly that, yeah. And I think it, it gets really strange. I mean, I, I read a lot of, uh, Eckhart Tolle as well, and I think my mind even goes to that sort of place, sort of like identifying the ego, identifying these different voices in your head. And I think it's so interesting that when that happens... Uh, a very good friend of mine actually, Benny Gordon, who's the, the drummer of, uh, Part Way Drive, a rock band, amazing.

   19. CWChris Williamson21:01

       I was wearing their T-shirt only here a couple of-

   20. RERoss Edgley21:03

       Ah. (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson21:05

       ... months ago. An Aussie guy.

   22. RERoss Edgley21:05

       Yeah, yeah. Whereas Benny, I remember he, he essentially gave me this perspective on things, and I love this. I've always... I've used it ever since. But a lot of people sometimes will... when that voice comes up, they'll shout back at it, you know. They'll say, "Oh, you know, man up. Uh, you know, uh, grit your teeth, get through this." And that can definitely work. For a marathon, I've found that can work. For an Ironman as well, 12, 13, 14, 15 hours can work. It gets quite tiring 54, 55 hours in. And so Benny always taught me, it's almost like if you sort of sit there, shut your eyes, and he said, "Your thoughts are like clouds that come into this clear sky." And at the start of the swim, the sky is very clear, you know, the sun is shining in that head of yours. And then all of a sudden, these dark clouds just come in, and every cloud that comes across is just a new thought, and your job is just to observe it. Don't have to react to it, just observe it. So as it comes in and it pops in your head just like, "Oh Ross, have you done enough training?" Just go, "Yeah, I have thanks. Yeah," (laughs) disappears. And then all of a sudden, 12 hours pass. "Whoa, Ross, sun's going down. Hypothermia is gonna set in. Remember, remember Loch Ness? Remember how bad that was? Whoa, I don't want to do that again." "No, no, I've got this." And it just keeps going past, every cloud. It's just your job is just to observe it, not necessarily to react to it. It's very hard to do, especially when sleep deprived. But that's been one of the biggest things.

   23. CWChris Williamson22:26

       It's like mindful resilience as opposed to the Goggins, Jocko sort of lean in, punch it in the face type approach. Very interesting. So what were you... Are y- are you sort of embodying c- a curiosity there? Like, in a interesting, just an interesting thought that comes through, and goodbye. And, uh...

   24. RERoss Edgley22:47

       It's exactly that, yeah. I think however I respond to it, the main thing is just making sure that it doesn't alter my biochemistry. So it's exactly that, that a thought that is like punching it in the face or saying, "No, you don't know me!" you know, and shouting it-

   25. CWChris Williamson22:59

       Mm-hmm.

   26. RERoss Edgley22:59

       ... that is gonna do nothing but spike cortisol. Your biochemistry is gonna be out of whack. It's fine, again, you can do that, I think, for a marathon or 12 hours, but I've found personally... And, and it does work for some people. I mean, you know, Yoko, Goggins, incredibly successful. I've found it doesn't work for me. And, and whether that is, um, sort of nature versus nurture, obviously they have an incredible military background. I am a country-

   27. CWChris Williamson23:23

       Are you more sensitive to co- cortisol?

   28. RERoss Edgley23:25

       M- yeah, yeah, and just a, a country bumpkin, you know, who sort of (laughs) swims around Cheshire in the countryside.

   29. CWChris Williamson23:31

       (laughs)

   30. RERoss Edgley23:31

       You know, I'm a hobbit. You know, whereas they are very much... you know, they are Spartans, they are warriors. Uh, I am not. You know, so I've found that, you know, maybe a bit more Courtney D'Alwes, who, who I'm a massive fan of as well. I'm, I'm maybe more that. You know, you see her just in the pain cave-
5. 28:21 – 34:06

   Digesting Food Mid-Swimming

   1. CWChris Williamson28:21

      water, just treading water, because while you're eating... Talk to me about that. Talk to... I was talking to a friend about this yesterday. The digestive discomfort that I have even if I just lie down too quickly after I've had a meal. You know, because vertically, being upright allows gravity to help the digestive tract to get things from mouth, esophagus, down, all the way through.

   2. RERoss Edgley28:41

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson28:42

      Um, what, what are some of the unique challenges and how do you get around that?

   4. RERoss Edgley28:45

      That... It's strange that of all of, um, the tests that have been done on me at Liverpool John Moores University and Loughborough University, that was one of the biggest things that they came away with, that they were just like, um... When you look at, uh, like Michael Phelps, uh, Cam McEvoy, one of the fastest sprinters ever, ever, Ben Proud, they all have amazing superpowers. Going back to that swimming superpower, whether that is hyperextension, uh, Michael Phelps' ability to tolerate lactic, um, you know, Cam McEvoy, crazy strong. It just feels that when they were handing out superpowers, they just went, "Ross can eat." (laughs) That was it. (laughs) Genuinely. So when people say, you know, "How d- how do you eat and how do you..." I'm like, "That's literally all I do." I- I've never-

   5. CWChris Williamson29:25

      And when you say, "I can eat," that means I can consume a good amount of food with minimal digestive discomfort and also absorb it and use it.

   6. RERoss Edgley29:34

      Exactly that, yeah. Yeah. And then not only that, actually I think what became really interesting on this particular swim is eating became a way of making sure we sort of staved off hypothermia at the same time as well. Because you just, that thermic effect of feeding, just making sure, just warm porridge oats, just so you were being warm from the inside out.

   7. CWChris Williamson29:50

      What were you eating?

   8. RERoss Edgley29:52

      At that point we just hammered the, the warm porridge oats. And what was really interesting actually about this is, um... And I hope no one ever finds themself in this dilemma, we were so cold on, on the second morning, the sun wasn't coming up for ages, it was behind the mountains, um, water was so cold, like I said, it was eight, nine degrees.And, uh, the team started to increase my feeding as well, so it was rather than every 30, 35, 40 minutes, it was- it was every 15 to 20 minutes, just regularly. And it was piping hot porridge oats, and what was so interesting is Maslow's hierarchy of needs, that sort of pyramid, at that point all I wanted was warmth. That was it. You know, so as you go up Maslow's hierarchy, at the base you've got sleep, warmth, uh, you know, food, shelter. As you move up, uh, friends, family. As you move up, job security. As you move up, feelings of prestige, accomplishment, um, until you get to the very top, philanthropy, self-actualization. I was so low down on that pyramid. You could... In that moment, you could have offered me a brand new car, £1 million-

   9. CWChris Williamson30:50

      Just one hot water bottle.

   10. RERoss Edgley30:51

       Yeah. Do not... I'd want the sun to come up over that mountain. That is all I wanted. And I think what was so interesting is in- in that point, I knew I wasn't gonna give up. I didn't want to end up in hospital and I- and I- I didn't want to give up. So faced with that, the only option was basically just to swim like crazy to heat the body up, and during feeding strategies they were basically saying, "How hot do you want it?" And I was like, "It j- it needs to be as hot as tolerable." So sat there in the middle of the Yukon, I am just there basically just drinking scalding hot porridge oats as I can feel it burning the tissue as it goes down, but I would rather that than the hypothermia.

   11. CWChris Williamson31:30

       Mm-hmm.

   12. RERoss Edgley31:30

       And it was a weird position to be in. Now sitting here in the comfort of the studio, like, hand me something like a burning hot cup of coffee, I'd be like, "Oh, Chris, it's too warm." (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson31:39

       Yeah.

   14. RERoss Edgley31:39

       But in that moment, I think it shows, like, humans are- are really capable of amazing things. I mean, that was very small. I'm- I'm talking, you know, when you hear stories of Everest and, you know, these incredible stories. That was very small, but it gave me a glimpse into what humans, you know, could potentially do, what you can endure with a greater goal.

   15. CWChris Williamson31:58

       Hot porridge, bananas is one of your favorites.

   16. RERoss Edgley32:02

       (laughs) It is.

   17. CWChris Williamson32:03

       What... So, what else are you doing in order to hit... And have you got any idea of macronutrient intake across the whole time, or caloric intake?

   18. RERoss Edgley32:09

       Not really. I mean-

   19. CWChris Williamson32:10

       I'm sure that some... The- the dude that was throwing the bananas at you-

   20. RERoss Edgley32:12

       Yeah. (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson32:12

       ... could probably reverse engineer it.

   22. RERoss Edgley32:14

       Yeah, yeah, we've got a long list. Um, and then also as well, just shout out to my sponsors as well, PhD Nutrition, 'cause just gels, electrolytes. I have something called BetaFuel where it's this, uh, really nice blend of sucrose and fructose, so you're basically not trying to throw one form of carbohydrate through the digestive tract. They have different digestive sort of speeds. So that, again, we made up a lot of that as well. Um, and then things got a little bit more creative. When the sun came up and I could actually enjoy it a little bit more-

   23. CWChris Williamson32:38

       Mm-hmm.

   24. RERoss Edgley32:38

       ... um, a lot of the guys were having, uh, bison burgers, moose soup.

   25. CWChris Williamson32:43

       Mm-hmm.

   26. RERoss Edgley32:43

       Uh, things got a little bit more creative. And also I could then enjoy it a little bit more. But there were certain periods, and especially as well in- in Canada and the Yukon, the sun never really goes down, so even, like, your circadian rhythm is all over the place.

   27. CWChris Williamson32:56

       Is that good given that you're not supposed to sleep?

   28. RERoss Edgley32:59

       I felt it was. And then also as well, what's interesting is, um, a lot of the team didn't sleep at all as well. Uh, my medic, Dr. Tom, was amazing, Chris Morgan, Kayak, um, Ger Kennedy as well, expedition leader, amazing. But in some ways I'd say it was harder for them to not sleep because my face was constantly in water and it was eight degrees. Like, it- it hurt. Every time I put my face in, it was just pins and needles to the face. So what was really interesting is I actually found it easier to combat sleep deprivation-

   29. CWChris Williamson33:31

       Being woken up with a splash of water in the face.

   30. RERoss Edgley33:33

       Exactly, yeah. Which is really weird. Like I said, yeah, sure, it was harder swimming, but I would say it was harder for them in the really nice warm sun on a boat that's kind of like rocky... It was harder for them to stay awake than it was me. The sleep deprivation I didn't actually find that bad until immediately afterwards. Um, there's video footage as well, we're gonna release a whole YouTube series on it, it's amazing, um, but the doctor's talking to me just how you and me are talking now, Chris, and literally I would just be... Like that (laughs) in between sentences. They would ask, "How do you feel?" I'm like, "Yeah, no, pretty good." (laughs) It's so bad.
6. 34:06 – 39:50

   Which Supplements Did Ross Take?

   1. CWChris Williamson34:06

      what about other supplementation? Caffeine, any nootropics, beta-alanine, any of the spicy stuff. What do you use?

   2. RERoss Edgley34:14

      So much, yeah. Caffeine, we were just literally talking about this as well because, um, we got into the grams. People deal in milligrams. I think the upper limit is 400 milligrams, you know, right? And yeah, so we- we were doing... That's a really strong pre-workout. Uh, we were getting into the grams, yeah, so over- well over 1,000 milligrams. And then what was interesting, and I'm glad you've picked up on that, because at a certain point the body kind of goes, "What more do you want from us?" Like, you know, there's- there's no neurotransmitters left. You've completely depleted them. Um, Alpha-GPC I found really works quite well.

   3. CWChris Williamson34:46

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, we got an activated version of that in Nootonic. Cognizin is activated Alpha-GPC.

   4. RERoss Edgley34:50

      Exac... And I love that because... And I don't know if anyone else has used it when swimming-

   5. CWChris Williamson34:54

      Mm-hmm.

   6. RERoss Edgley34:55

      ... but I found, like, it- it- it just makes you happier staring at the bottom of a river or a sea, and instead of swimming... And I don't know if this is true of- of running, but certainly for swimming, I've found I'm happy for ten hours, and as I'm pulling through the water I'm like, "How's my high elbow catch? Oh, that's a good feel for the water."

   7. CWChris Williamson35:15

      Mm-hmm.

   8. RERoss Edgley35:15

      As I'm swimming, I'm just more content with the process.

   9. CWChris Williamson35:18

      Mm-hmm.

   10. RERoss Edgley35:18

       Caffeine has always done that. I've always responded really well to caffeine. But Alpha-GPC specifically, and I hammered it for these three days. Usually, um, as per the teachings of Huberman, you know, I'll sort of go on and off and sort of cycle it, but for this we just went all out for those three days.

   11. CWChris Williamson35:32

       Yep.

   12. RERoss Edgley35:33

       And then immediately afterwards, like, yeah, the... I mean, the comedown, I- I-

   13. CWChris Williamson35:37

       Yeah. There's an awful lot of, uh, substances going through you. Okay, so you're using Alpha-GPC, you're using caffeine. What else was in the mix?

   14. RERoss Edgley35:44

       And that was pretty much it, to be fair.

   15. CWChris Williamson35:45

       Okay.

   16. RERoss Edgley35:46

       Just because you didn't want to spike anything too much. You didn't wanna... It was trying to make sure that the entire event was kept like this.

   17. CWChris Williamson35:54

       You didn't need any adaptogens? You didn't think that that would be useful or interesting?

   18. RERoss Edgley35:58

       No, not... Having trialed it in training, we always say no debuts, uh, come race day, you know, and we- we didn't have time, you know, to trial any of them. I think worth stating is- is this is just kinda...... ignited a curiosity in me for other stuff. And also as well, even Liverpool John Moores University, they were making some fantastic suggestions as well. They were talking about like even, um, on swims where the sun does go down, just punching light into your retina, you know, literally as I'm-

   19. CWChris Williamson36:21

       Oh, how fascinating.

   20. RERoss Edgley36:22

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson36:23

       Yeah. Yeah, maybe, uh, a couple of little red light things on the back of the knee attached to the wetsuit, you know what I mean, like-

   22. RERoss Edgley36:28

       Exactly.

   23. CWChris Williamson36:28

       ... that would be so interesting.

   24. RERoss Edgley36:29

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson36:29

       It's, it's cool that you've done the whole thing, uh, from a supplementation, pharmacological standpoint on, uh, caffeine and basically cyclic olines. Like, it just, get a cholinergic into you, make sure that you feel good in the brain, but you're not spiking anything too much.

   26. RERoss Edgley36:45

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson36:46

       I do think, you know, I've, I think the most I've had of, of Mutonic is maybe five in a day when I've been doing just back to back to back to back to back episodes somewhere and, um, the come down off the back of that is relatively gentle, but there are certain compounds that you could throw in that would just fucking destroy you. And I guess you're thinking as well about digestive discomfort, how is this mixing with the other things that I'm eating?

   28. RERoss Edgley37:08

       That's a really good point, yeah. That's why it was just trying to keep it like this the entire time, and also I think as well, um, as it went on, I found I was just metabolizing it so quickly.

   29. CWChris Williamson37:17

       Yeah.

   30. RERoss Edgley37:17

       So initially, um, halflife caffeine eight hours, uh, I would certainly feel the effects. If I had 200 milligrams in the early stages of the swim, I could probably feel that for four hours, you know, feel pretty good, uh, powerfully pulling through the water, improving the ionic environment within the working muscles, neurotransmitters, chemicals in the brain, felt all of that. Mm, going into the second day, two hours towards the end, you know, over that 48-hour period, just it was just (laughs) you know.
7. 39:50 – 43:05

   The Injuries Ross Collected From the Swim

   1. CWChris Williamson39:50

      okay, so you, you, you get to the hospital, a little bit of rhabdo or a lot of rhabdo?

   2. RERoss Edgley39:53

      I think there was probably a lot of rhabdo (laughs) .

   3. CWChris Williamson39:55

      Okay.

   4. RERoss Edgley39:56

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson39:56

      A lot of rhabdo, um, hyperthermia?

   6. RERoss Edgley40:01

      With sunburn.

   7. CWChris Williamson40:01

      Sunburn.

   8. RERoss Edgley40:02

      (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson40:03

      Anything else?

   10. RERoss Edgley40:04

       I think that was... oh, and then cuts to the back of the leg.

   11. CWChris Williamson40:06

       Oh yeah, explain that.

   12. RERoss Edgley40:07

       Yeah, so that was really weird. It was, um, we put, um, like Vaseline and I bel- I think it's called lanolin, I think.

   13. CWChris Williamson40:13

       Yes.

   14. RERoss Edgley40:14

       Yeah, we put that-

   15. CWChris Williamson40:14

       Breastfeeding women use that to like fix their skin, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   16. RERoss Edgley40:18

       Which is amazing. I put that all around my neck and, and that actually was, was pretty good. Um, even (laughs) , oh, I'm so sorry about this, even put it down my bum crack to make sure that was all okay as well, there was no shaving. Brilliant, like completely, apart from the toilet mishap, was, was perfect. But the one place was the back of the legs, 'cause when treading water, so sort of like a breaststroke leg kick or egg beater leg kick for those who play water polo, um, it was sort of riding up and in the crease of the back of the leg, um, so that was the weirdest injury that I to- I just never thought.

   17. CWChris Williamson40:50

       It looks deep. The image on-

   18. RERoss Edgley40:52

       Oh, it's (laughs) -

   19. CWChris Williamson40:52

       ... Instagram is not g- how is it now?

   20. RERoss Edgley40:55

       It's pretty good. I mean-

   21. CWChris Williamson40:55

       Okay.

   22. RERoss Edgley40:56

       ... I'll take down my trousers if you want me to do, but-

   23. CWChris Williamson40:57

       Get them down, let's have a look, come on. Show me. Show me. This is what, this is what the people are here for. That does not look good.

   24. RERoss Edgley41:04

       No, that's, that has healed. Can we bring up a picture of before?

   25. CWChris Williamson41:07

       Yeah, that's true.

   26. RERoss Edgley41:08

       That's good.

   27. CWChris Williamson41:09

       Oh, dude.

   28. RERoss Edgley41:11

       (laughs)

   29. CWChris Williamson41:11

       Wow, that's fucking gnarly. Oh my-

   30. RERoss Edgley41:14

       That's actually healed. I showed Rich, Rich Roll, and he was like, "Yeah, that's pretty good." (laughs)
8. 43:05 – 48:47

   What Ross Has Learned About Resilience

   1. CWChris Williamson43:05

      uh, across all of the swims? You mentioned that sort of interesting perspective you have on resilience. You wrote a great book, Art of Resilience.

   2. RERoss Edgley43:13

      Aw.

   3. CWChris Williamson43:14

      Um, give me your overview of resilience and, and w- how you've come to think about it from a, a human standpoint.

   4. RERoss Edgley43:23

      Yeah. I, I say in the book, um, that resilience is suffering strategically managed. And what I mean by that is, you know, so often I think people think in terms of gritting your teeth, manning up, you know. And, and for me it, it, it just wasn't quite right to sort of say that. That's not, that's not a, an approach that I found works. It's like me and you go for a run right now. Um, if we're 5K into the run and we're gonna run a marathon, you turn to me and say, "Ross, I've got a pebble in my shoe." I won't go, "Oh, resilience. Man up. Run with it and wear it down." No, I'll be like, "Just, just let's stop and take the pebble out, Chris." (laughs) Do you know what I mean? It's, it's suffering strategically managed. And I think, um, especially with the latest swim as well with the Yukon, it is really nice if people say, "Oh, Ross is really tough. He's really resilient." I'm like, "No, no, I, I... it's just suffering strategically managed." You know, uh, neurotransmitters, chemicals in the brain, caffeine. Depleted the muscle glycogen, carbs. Uh, I need more than that, MCTs. Uh, I'm getting cold, make sure that the porridge oats are turned up. Do you know what I mean? It's anything that's going on, limiting limitations. And I think, um, to go off on a little bit of a tangent, it, it, it's kind of what... I l- I love the heroic age of Antarctic exploration, you know, with Amundsen and Robert Falcon Scott, Shackleton. And when, uh, Robert Falcon Scott and Amundsen, the Norwegian, uh, Falcon Scott being the, the British guy, when they were racing to the South Pole, it was so interesting that Amundsen with Norwegian efficiency, you know, he turned up, his guys were trained Olympic skiers. There was an Olympic skier in his team as well who led from the front. Everybody was made to practice in skis. Not only that as well, they turned up with dogs. This is something that he learned when going to the Arctic Circle as well from the indigenous people there. So, he knew that if he got to the South Pole with this number of dogs, that on the way back he could eat a certain number of dogs for sustenance. And the British at the time were like, "Oh, that's ungentlemanly, like, eating dogs. That's terrible." And then equally, when you look at the British expedition, they brought ponies that ended up falling through the ice and they had to feed them to the, to the orcas. They brought, uh, mechanical skis that just broke down, tins of food that were just completely useless and poisonous as soon as they arrived. And I think it was so interesting that learning from that, I was very much Scotty of the Ar- uh, Antarctic when it came to Loch Ness and Tres Ameno. You know, I turned up and it was like, "Right, let's give this a good go." Whereas for the Yukon, I was very much trying to be Amundsen, you know, this Norwegian efficiency. And, um, that's one of the biggest things. To come back, if I was to add a chapter to the Art of Resilience, it would probably be, uh, that story.

   5. CWChris Williamson45:58

      I read it, uh, I think I messaged you about this, but I snap- I ruptured my Achilles playing cricket, the most British way to do it, um, four years ago at the end of, uh, the end of COVID.

   6. RERoss Edgley46:08

      (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson46:08

      And I put together... And this is the same, if anybody is going through... Good for physical stuff, probably also all right for emotional stuff, uh, Obstacle Is The Way by Ryan Holiday, Art of Resilience by yourself on Audible, I think. I go, go Audible 'cause that's cool. Uh, and then, um, Resurfaced, the documentary about Andy Murray-

   8. RERoss Edgley46:29

      Mm.

   9. CWChris Williamson46:29

      ... his, uh, hip replacement where he gets a ball and socket, uh, it's like a steel ball and a, a, a ceramic socket hip replacement. And those three, that's my stack. You know, yours was like caffeine, uh-

   10. RERoss Edgley46:44

       (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson46:45

       ... MCTs and, uh, citicolines. Mine was those three. And, um, that was the thing that really kind of set the tone for the rest of my recovery. Um, but it is, it's such a unique perspective on resilience, and I think that we are definitely in an age of, um, glorification of the tough, heroic man, and the main reason being that it feels like something that's very absent. It feels revolutionary, it feels, um, counterculture-

   12. RERoss Edgley47:13

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson47:13

       ... in a world which is very convenient and you go from air conditioned house to cooled office. Um, it feels traditional in a sort of wholesome way-

   14. RERoss Edgley47:23

       Mm.

   15. CWChris Williamson47:23

       ... to talk about just gritting your teeth and getting through it. Um, but given the choice, I mean, what did you do for the swim? You didn't swim upstream.

   16. RERoss Edgley47:32

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson47:32

       When it came to what you were doing mentally, you didn't try and swim upstream.

   18. RERoss Edgley47:35

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson47:36

       And it feels like that's kind of the philosophy that you've taken. Yeah.

   20. RERoss Edgley47:39

       Yeah. It... Yeah, I love what you said there. Yeah, I'd never actually... I'd never thought about it like that. But that, um... This is why I wanted to appreciate coming on here, 'cause I'm still deconstructing the Yukon. So, this is almost just like therapy. (laughs) It's not a podcast at all.

   21. CWChris Williamson47:52

       Please tell me about your ancestral trauma. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   22. RERoss Edgley47:55

       (laughs) No, but that is exactly it. I didn't really think about it, but yeah, figuratively, me- metaphorically, yeah, it was very much trying to, uh, work with the river. I, I... This is gonna sound so strange as well, but...It, it really is, like, quite spiritual when you do... And that- that's the only way I can describe it, uh, for want of a better term. But with the Yukon, it just... It- it almost provided everything that we needed. So the- so the glacial melt, 'cause the, uh, the glacial lakes, they're melting, which made sure that we had, like, uh, uh, a stronger current. Uh, we had a brief window of those two days where the sun actually came out. Uh, it- it just felt like the Yukon was like, "You know what?" Like, "If you're crazy enough (laughs) to come and try this-"

   23. CWChris Williamson48:34

       Mm-hmm.

   24. RERoss Edgley48:34

       "... we'll- we'll- uh, we'll- we'll guide you."

   25. CWChris Williamson48:36

       Well, after the first two attempts that you've done for this, you would owe something. Mother Nature was like, uh, "All right, I've kicked you in the, kicked you in the dick twice. Here we go, I'll give you a nice little helping hand."

9. 48:47 – 57:14

   The State of Ross’s Mind During the Event

   1. CWChris Williamson48:47

      Explain to me where your mind is. You know, you're doing six hours on, six hours off. If it was Great British Swim, you're doing 15 minutes or half an hour of 45s. What are you doing with your mind for that long?

   2. RERoss Edgley49:02

      I, the biggest thing that I've taken away is solely focusing on the process. And this is something I actually learned from the Royal Marines, because, and anyone listening will be able to understand, when you're focusing on the outcome, you're not actually focusing on the process. So if you are rowing, you're on a treadmill, some- whatever it is, if you're looking at the gym clock and being like, "How much longer have I got? Oh my God, I've only done 15 minutes." No, no, no, no, you're focusing on the outcome. You're not focusing on the process. If you're running on a treadmill, focus, "Am I forefoot striking, am I heel striking? How's my cadence?" That's what you should be focusing on. When I'm swimming, "How's my high elbow catch? Am I catching a, am I finishing my stroke? What's my leg kick doing?" That's the process. The moment I immediately turn to the boat and start saying, "How much further have we got? How far have we gone?" Tho- those metrics are important, but if you keep on asking that, you're not focusing on the process. So if you're not focusing on the process, you're not focusing on the outcome. But the weird thing is, by just solely focusing on the proc- process, the outcome becomes inevitable.

   3. CWChris Williamson49:57

      How do you avoid tapping into... Dopamine's a hell of a drug, and the, "Where am I, where was I, how far have I gone? Oh, this is exciting." That's something that fuels motivation, and for a lot of people, that's a temptation now. Is there a mantra that when that voice comes into your head said, "Why don't we just ask? I'll just..." And you know that it's going to rip you out of this process? Driven mentality that you say is optimal.

   4. RERoss Edgley50:20

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson50:21

      Is there something that you do to bring yourself back to that?

   6. RERoss Edgley50:23

      Not necessarily. I think it's just really blindly and stubbornly thinking of the process. It was actually, I- I love, um, Huberman. He talked about, there was a study, and I hope I don't butcher this, but he was talking about how he ha- there was a study where they had people on a treadmill and they had them run in kind of this kind of, like, corridor. And in this corridor, they said, "You run as fast as you want." So they did. And as they're running in this corridor, the sort of pillars going past them were either sped up or slowed down. And what it was showing-

   7. CWChris Williamson50:49

      Were they in VR of some kind?

   8. RERoss Edgley50:50

      Exactly that, exactly that. And he was sort of saying how they were manipulating the columns moving fast. So if it, the column's going faster, they think they're running faster. If they go slow, they're like, "Oh my God, is that as fast as I'm running?" And that's one of the biggest things that I took away, one from the GB swim and this. Certainly on the GB swim, because when you're swimming across, like, the Moray Firth, for instance, there's no land, there's no landmarks, you can't see anything. Also, not only that, it, say, it was kind of, like, completely overcast, you've not even got the moon. So it is pitch black. You're swimming in a black hole. And you're like, "Am I even moving? Like, what is going on?" And I've even seen that. I remember in, um, Saint Lucia once I did a swim, and, uh, we got caught in a bad countercurrent. And I swam as hard as I could for four hours, this was after an 18-hour swim, and I did not move for those four hours. I was swimming as hard as I could to stay on the same spot. So, so that's like running a marathon, well, an ultra-marathon for 18 hours and somebody just putting a treadmill (laughs) in the middle of the road and going, "I'll just run on that for four hours." It was ni- and then I remember stopping, turning to the captain and I said, "How are we doing?" He said, "Ross, I'm- I'm so sorry, we've not made any progress for four hours." I remember turning, and I- I won't repeat quite what I said, my-

   9. CWChris Williamson52:01

      (laughs)

   10. RERoss Edgley52:01

       ... language was quite colorful. (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson52:02

       Mm-hmm.

   12. RERoss Edgley52:02

       I went, "What do you mean we've not moved?" I was complaining for about 20 seconds, and he just said, "S- sorry, sorry, Ross, can I just interrupt you there?" I went, "What?" And he goes, "The whole time that you've been complaining, you've gone back 200 meters." I thought... (laughs) And that, in that moment, really taught me the ocean does not care. But sorry, going back to that, that, uh, the experiment that I heard from Huberman, I thought that was so interesting as well, because I'm just literally, like, those columns going past-

   13. CWChris Williamson52:28

       Mm-hmm.

   14. RERoss Edgley52:28

       ... sometimes I'm like, "Don't, don't tell me." Because you might turn around and go, "Oh, Ross, you're going really slow." And that, that-

   15. CWChris Williamson52:34

       Good day, bad day.

   16. RERoss Edgley52:35

       Exactly, that would crush me. Or, "You're doing really well," and it's a rollercoaster. I'm almost like, "I don't wanna know," 'cause I'm solely focused on the process. I don't want an outcome.

   17. CWChris Williamson52:42

       How do you stop yourself from giving up?

   18. RERoss Edgley52:45

       Oh, that is a really good question. One thing that I've found, going back to Maslow's hierarchy, is sometimes you're at the base of that pyramid. So how you stop yourself from giving up is by looking after your primitive needs. Water, hydration, food, warmth. That's it. So if you're running, uh, an ultra-marathon in the Arctic or swimming down the Yukon River, it doesn't matter, look after those needs. But then one thing that I've found, it gets really interesting, is sometimes you almost flip Maslow's hierarchy, 'cause sometimes you almost forego the base of the pyramid for a higher purpose. And I think that happened a few times in the Yukon, where I just had to flip it. I- I was looking, going, "Okay, hypothermia's now setting in." I wasn't just shivering from my sort of extremities, it was, it was in your core. Anyone who has ever experienced that, you are shaking from your stomach. And I was like, "Right, that's not good news." (laughs) So I knew at that point that my base needs, those primitive needs weren't being catered for, so I just had to basically just flip and remind myself of the higher goal, which is-

   19. CWChris Williamson53:53

       And what's that?

   20. RERoss Edgley53:54

       Which was the higher purpose, which was the record, which was contributing to sport science. It was all of those things that we all set out to do in the, in the, in the first place. And I think that's what gets really interesting, that if you have that higher purpose, a bigger cause...... then you can flip Maslow's hierarchy. But it takes a really big cause. It's gotta be important to you. If it's not, you can't flip Maslow's hierarchy.

   21. CWChris Williamson54:15

       Have you thought or have you designed a framework where you maximize your intrinsic motivation, you're not thinking about the extrinsic stuff? Is this something you did in advance? Is there a mindfulness technique? Practically, how do you do this?

   22. RERoss Edgley54:30

       That's a really good question. I think I've become far more intrinsically motivated. I, I don't mind admitting that with the GB swim, I was very much inspired by Captain Webb, 1875, first guy to cross the English Channel. And he did it for records and accolades. That's what he did it for. He became a celebrity of his time. He was on matchboxes and everything. It was amazing. And, um, I still love the story, did it with his brother and his cousin feeding him, um, beef broth and brandy, and he swam breaststroke all the way across because front crawl was ungentlemanly-like at the time (laughs) . Love that. But he did it for records 'cause people said he couldn't, you know. And he made good money from it as well, you know. That, that was why he essentially did it. And I think... I've always said the GB swim was my Captain Webb moment. But after that, again looking at Maslow's hierarchy, that was, I suppose, feelings of accomplishment and prestige and things. I found, like, I, I don't need another one of those. And a- actually, it would be a little bit weird, it would actually make me feel weird to just constantly go, if they were solely for records and personal achievement, because you'd be like, "What are you doing?" And so, so that's why I've become... I, I joke, I've almost become, like, a mercenary for charities. If there's a good cause, then I'm like, "Wicked, I'll put my goggles on." You know? So whether that is the Loch Ness swim with Ocean Conservation or more recently with the, um, with the Shark documentary for Disney, which I know we'll come onto, um, it's just knowing that, that, yeah, there's a, there's a higher purpose. And also, being intrinsically motivated for that as well. I think, um, with Loch Ness and Tresemeno, it was really interesting how back in my youth, I like to think I've matured a little bit (laughs) , back in the youth, it was very black and white. Did I get a record, did, did I not? Success and failure. Whereas after Loch Ness and Tresemeno, I was really proud of those swims. So when a lot of people came over to me and they'd sort of go, "Ross, are you okay?" I'll be like, "Yeah." "Oh, sorry." I'm like, "Don't be sorry. As a team, we had a great time."

   23. CWChris Williamson56:22

       Mm-hmm.

   24. RERoss Edgley56:22

       Got some great data, contributed that back to universities. Um, and I was personally really happy with what we achieved. I couldn't have said that previously. And, um, I think that's, may- maybe that's maturing (laughs) .

   25. CWChris Williamson56:34

       There's a degree of, uh, completion and sort of validation that you got from the GB swim. Once that's done, it sort of opened you up to-

   26. RERoss Edgley56:43

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson56:43

       ... transcend that a little bit.

   28. RERoss Edgley56:45

       I think exactly that, yeah. Swims now are very much, uh, did I enjoy it? Uh, did, did it mean a lot to me? Did I push myself? Did I get something from it? And, um, whether that was in Tresemeno swimming through, uh, a heatwave or Loch Ness and surviving 53 hours-

   29. CWChris Williamson56:58

       Mm-hmm.

   30. RERoss Edgley56:59

       ... uh, they were all achievements that I was like, "Oh, that was, that was, that was pretty good. Yeah."
10. 57:14 – 1:09:29

    Is There a Darker Side to Ross?

    1. CWChris Williamson57:14

       There's a question I've always wanted to ask you, and I've been thinking about how to put it across for a long time, like years, how I, how I can ask this without, without trying to create too much pressure.

    2. RERoss Edgley57:24

       (laughs) Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson57:24

       So, I'm, I'm quite fascinated by your demeanor. You're, uh, very positive even in the face of suffering, it seems. Uh, laughing and smiling and so on and so forth. I've never seen, and it may just not make the edit or whatever, but I've never seen a darkness side of you. I've never seen agitation. I've never seen rage. I've never seen, um, bitterness or resentment. Uh, I've never seen a lot of the things that typically drive very high performers and endurance athletes. And there's a degree of suspicion that I have around anybody who I don't see that dark side to.

    4. RERoss Edgley58:10

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CWChris Williamson58:11

       Do you have a dark side?

    6. RERoss Edgley58:13

       Yeah. D- you're not the first person to say that, actually. A fair few people have said that as well. Um, I da- I definitely think it's a, a sliding scale. So to sit here and say, "Oh, no, I'm smiley all the time," no, no, no, no, no. A- and I can show you pictures, actually, of the Yukon when my face is swollen, you know, and I, you know, I'm not having a great time. With that said, I think one of the nicest things that the, uh, the team in Canada said was, uh, "It was a great swim, Ross, but what we were most impressed with is you were still saying thank you when we were throwing you bananas 50 hours in." And like, oh, like I, I can talk about it now and not get, uh, so choked up. But, but that would have made my dad so proud. And I think the thing is, is, um, if, if anyone had met my dad, they, they would probably understand why. And it's, um... For those who don't know, I, I talk about it in The Art of Resilience, and I can talk about it now and not cry, I hope, touch wood (laughs) . Um, but, um, when I was swimming around Great Britain, it was going around Cape Wrath, and, and my dad was, was diagnosed with, with stage four cancer. And I, I was like, "That's it. I'm, I'm done. I'm just, I'm just gonna go on land. I'm just, I just wanna give him a hug, I wanna be with our family." And he, he said to me, "No, no, no, Ross, you, you can come home, and you can give me a hug, but it's gotta be via Margate. You have to finish the swim." Um, so that's why at the end of the GB swim when people see, you, you see my dad, uh, in a wheelchair as well, 'cause it was, it was sort of... The cancer was pretty bad at that time. The tumors were so bad, uh, that he couldn't walk. And, and the doctor said, "There's no way you can be around crowds. Like, you have no immune system, Richard. Like, you can't be there." And he just looked all the doctors dead in the eye, and he was, he was always so polite, always handled himself, like, so well, and he just said, "I appreciate the medical advice. Um, I really do. Uh, I don't want to, uh, go against it, but I will be there on the beach when my son swims around Great Britain." You know? And that's why he was there. And, um, I think it was his just... Oh, I don't know what it's called. Humility, grace, wha- whatever. But, but e- even, even when he was diagnosed with cancer and they got really bad. I remember we went to go and visit him in, uh, in, in hospital, and he'd cut up all of his face 'cause he's a tennis coach. And he'd cut up all of his face 'cause he fell on the tennis court, and he went for a point. And, uh, we all went in, me, my brothers, and my mum. And he's there and his face is, like, all bloody. And I was like, "Dad, what happened?"And, and the tumors had got so bad he couldn't run basically, and then he just goes, "Oh, I just had a bit of a fall." I was like, "Oh, Dad!" And he goes, "No, no, I'm fine. Everyone's, you know, making too much of a fuss." And then there was a silence, and then I went, "Did you win the point?" And Dad went, "Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah." (laughs) Everyone burst out laughing. That was very quickly followed by the doctor saying, "Richard, you know this is, this is terminal. You're, you're not gonna be able to walk again." And he said, "That's absolutely fine," and the very next day, took to the tennis court in a wheelchair and just started teaching wheelchair tennis. You know, he, he, he just... Growing up with that, wh- wh- that's one of the reasons I'll always say thank you if you give me a banana, and I've got cellulitis and hyperthermia, and I'm 50 hours into a swim, because ultimately, my dad, when faced with stage four cancer, did not batter an eyelid, and just went, "That's absolutely fine. I'll just coach from a wheelchair," and just went straight back out there. And it's that. If you, if you understand that, I... That's the first time I've really told that story, and then that's the biggest thing that I think, um... Oh, this is going off on a complete tangent, I'm sorry. (laughs) But it's, you, you know they talk about y- you, you just inherit certain genes and stuff, and you, you just... Whether it's spiritual, psychological, genet- whatever, sometimes I just hear, hear my dad as well. You know, I'm 50 hours in, and then I'm like, "If you do not say thank you for that banana," like I can just see my dad's face just being like, "Hmm." You know, and that's what he'd be most proud of. So yeah, after that swim, it was, it was on Father's Day as well, the Yukon thing, so it was, uh, yeah. I've done pretty well there not to cry. (laughs)

    7. CWChris Williamson1:01:47

       Yeah. It's impressive. It's a very m- a very meaningful story.

    8. RERoss Edgley1:01:50

       Hmm. Thanks for asking that. Yeah, 'cause that, I can talk about it now without like t- it was three years ago, we lost him, so I can talk about it now. And, and yeah. It's, um... Someone said something lovely, because it was like, he was my guiding north star when he was here. And every single swim, I would speak to him. Like I said, he was a tennis coach, um, taught wheelchair tennis, uh, visually impaired tennis. Uh, you know, so he just, he, even when he was, he was fine, he would just blindfold himself, go out there, and just start playing tennis. You know, so he would just play visually impaired tennis just, just to make tennis available to all. And, um, as a coach, I would just, "Right, I'm gonna swim around Great Britain," and he just sat there at the, the dinner table, Sunday roast dinner, and he just started doing the calculations, he was like, "Oh, you need to swim this." So he was my no- north star, and then what's, what's interesting is now, he's not physically here, but he's still sort of that north star, because I always think, "What would he say?" And you know, you can actually... For anyone who's lost a parent or anyone close to them, they'll know pretty what I'm saying. You just, you literally hear their voice, you know, that yeah, it's just, "Oh, I'm gonna swim the Yukon." I can hear my dad, I can hear what he's saying right now. You know, it's just, yeah. Thanks for listening to that monologue, Chris. (laughs)

    9. CWChris Williamson1:02:56

       What a fantastic imprint, man.

    10. RERoss Edgley1:02:58

        Yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:02:58

        What a hero.

    12. RERoss Edgley1:02:59

        Yeah. Yeah, so that, that's it. I think when people go, it's not because I'm completely smiley and stuff. It's because my dad was the most stoically strong person I've ever met.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:03:09

        Mm.

    14. RERoss Edgley1:03:10

        So polite. And, uh, yeah. E- even, yeah, in the latter stages, was still coaching, he s- carried on coaching, and even when he was completely bedridden, he was just doing paperwork and everything. I remember, I remember he rung up, um, 'cause he needed to sort his accounts. I never forget this conversation as well. He rung up the accounts, um, and he was like, "Oh, I'm gonna file my accounts, uh, early," 'cause he just didn't wanna bother my mum with it. You know, so he wanted to make sure all the paperwork was sorted, and they went, "Oh, Richard, you're gonna have to sort it, uh, for another six months." And he just went, "No, no, I'm aware of that, uh, but I will probably be dead." And they were like, "Oh!"

    15. CWChris Williamson1:03:42

        My God.

    16. RERoss Edgley1:03:42

        "Yeah, just so..." You know? And then-

    17. CWChris Williamson1:03:44

        Matter of fact.

    18. RERoss Edgley1:03:45

        ... and then, (laughs) this um, I'm so glad I'm talking about this, 'cause I can talk about it fondly now, but even when we were sorting out his funeral, and they said, um, "You can be buried in anything you want," and he was like, "Anything?" And they went, "Yeah, pretty much anything." And he had a natural burial where they, um, create, uh, a sort of coffin, and it goes in the ground, and it biodegrades, and you become one with the earth and stuff, and that was my dad. He was so sort of thoughtful like that. And then they said, "Yeah, you can pretty much have anything you want." And, uh, he looked at the designs, and then eventually, again, we're all on the phone, (laughs) and he, he just goes, "Can I be buried in a TARDIS?" (laughs) 'Cause he loved Doctor Who. (laughs) And he's just having these conversations. So I think that's it. You, you know I love Stoicism, and, um, you know, the last thing that you can choose is your attitude to things. And watching Dad in that particular scenario, and, and his attitude towards death, and how he just completely... I, I say my dad taught me how to live, but he also taught me how to die, and I don't want that to sound morbid, 'cause I think sometimes in the West, we have a bit of a, you know, yeah, sort of don't wanna talk about that. It's a bit of a weird relationship with death, whereas Dad just taught me just to, um, yeah. Just... You know what I'm saying, so yeah. Thanks for listening to that, Chris. Sorry, that was a long answer.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:04:56

        Not at all.

    20. RERoss Edgley1:04:57

        (laughs)

    21. CWChris Williamson1:04:57

        Not at all. I, I'm, I'm glad that I got to see that insight. In other news, this episode is brought to you by Momentous. You might have heard me say that I took my testosterone from 495 to 1,006 last year, and one of the supplements I used throughout that was Tongkat Ali. I first heard Dr. Andrew Huberman talk about the really impressive effects, which sound great, until you realize that most supplements don't actually contain what they're advertising. But Momentous makes the only InForm Sports certified Tongkat Ali on the planet, which means it is tested so rigorously that even professional athletes can use it, and that is why I partnered with them, because they make the most carefully tested, highest quality supplements on earth. So, if you're not performing in the gym or the bedroom the way that you want, Tongkat Ali is a great research-backed place to start. Best of all, there is a 30-day money back guarantee, so you can buy it completely risk-free. Try it, and if you do not like it for any reason, they will give you your money back, and they ship internationally. Right now, you can get a 20% discount by going to the link in the show notes below, or heading to livemomentous.com/modernwisdom and using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout. That's L-I-V-E-M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S dot com slash MODERNWISDOM, and MODERNWISDOM at checkout. That's one of the best bits of British culture at its best-

    22. RERoss Edgley1:06:13

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:06:14

        ... I think. You know, the kind of stiff upper lip-

    24. RERoss Edgley1:06:16

        Mm-hmm.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:06:16

        ... Britishism that, you know, uh, keep calm and carry on. Like that's what it feels like it embodies.

    26. RERoss Edgley1:06:23

        Mm-hmm.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:06:24

        Uh, and I've been, since moving to America, I have been quite critical of, of British culture, because I don't think that we fully embrace the best bits as well-... or as frequently as, perhaps, we should anymore. And yet, you look back and Antarctic adventures, crossings of the channel, exploration, Ralph Fiennes. You know, we have, oh, such an illustrious history of people who were able to withstand suffering, take risks, uh, be adventurous. And, um, yeah, it feels like your dad is a, uh, individual from a bygone era, like a personality from a, a, a past time.

    28. RERoss Edgley1:07:03

        Yeah. That's, yeah, that is exactly it, that all those, uh, what are now considered old-fashioned ideals-

    29. CWChris Williamson1:07:08

        Mm-hmm.

    30. RERoss Edgley1:07:08

        ... you know, he just had in abundance, and then that's what me and my, my brothers and my mum, yeah, still have. I love what you said there as well, with, with, um, you know, uh, Robert Falcon Scott as well, obviously perishing in the Antarctic. And I forget, it's gonna annoy me now, but that particular part of his crew, and there was one guy who had gangrene on his foot and, um, you know, turned to the team. He knew that he was slowing them down, and so one night in a tent as a blizzard was just coming in, he just turned to his team and he just said, "Gentlemen, I will be going for a walk. I may be some time." And he just walked to his death knowing that he was holding up the team. You know, there was, I, I, I get, completely get what you mean. There was an element of that that's quite proudly British, you know, that sort of-

Episode duration: 1:56:52