7 Ways To Ruin Your Life With Lies From Quantum Physics - Chris Ferrie

1. 0:00 – 1:42

   Intro

   1. CFChris Ferrie0:00

      Quantum physics isn't well understood. It has a reputation. Even scientists get out in front of the public and say that it's counterintuitive and mystical. So when someone repeats that, you're inclined to believe it, especially if you have a problem where you went to a doctor and the doctor didn't help you. Now you're inclined to distrust science. And so when someone comes along, the rogue scientist that real doctors don't want you to know about, you feel compelled to believe them and have the backing of this miraculous, super mysterious, and complex theory. It's way better. People buy into it.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:31

      (wind blowing) I'm very much looking forward to this episode. I have been for quite a while since I heard about your book. I feel like the world of quantum physics is one which is used by all manner of different people to explain things that they absolutely shouldn't be, but why should we listen to you as some sort of jujitsu assassin of quantum physics? What are your credentials? Who are you?

   3. CFChris Ferrie0:57

      Well, I'm, uh, an associate professor of quantum physics at the University of Technology Sydney, um, in Australia, one of the, one of the big places to do quantum technology research and development. And I've been studying quantum physics for 20 odd years now.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:16

      You've also written 60 books on science-

   5. CFChris Ferrie1:18

      (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson1:18

      ... in one form or another.

   7. CFChris Ferrie1:20

      Yeah, I have quite a few. Most of them are children's books, so the latest one, probably shouldn't read to children.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:26

      (laughs)

   9. CFChris Ferrie1:26

      And be- be- because of the place I had to sit in my house for the people watching anyway. (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson1:32

       Yeah. That's-

   11. CFChris Ferrie1:34

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:34

       ... a lot of alcohol.

   13. CFChris Ferrie1:34

       Yeah, not for children. (laughs)

   14. CWChris Williamson1:35

       Yeah. Uh, okay.

   15. CFChris Ferrie1:37

       You need it to study quantum physics. (laughs)

   16. CWChris Williamson1:38

       So what are the different types of quantum bullshit? Talking about

2. 1:42 – 7:57

   Debunking Quantum Bullshit

   1. CWChris Williamson1:42

      quantum physics, there are ways in which people misuse and abuse and misappropriate it. What are the broad buckets of quantum bullshit?

   2. CFChris Ferrie1:50

      Mm-hmm. Yeah, so in, in the book I go through the major concepts in quantum physics, so like buzzwords that you might have heard, super position, entanglement, energy, and I ... They each have their own brand of bullshit attached to them. The- there's sort of the good, the bad, and the ugly. The, the, the ugly is when it comes to quantum energy, which is associated with things like quantum healing which suggests that people do things that are unscientific and not medically sound in lieu of, of actual medical attention and medical advice, so that's very bad. Uh, and then there's like mundane things when people misinterpret, say, entanglement as some spiritual connection between things that are separated, uh, which, you know, if, if you're not waste- if you're not stealing people's money and you're not harming people, no big deal. So there's a whole kind of range from, from, yeah, harmful to just annoying and head-scratching if you're a- (laughs) an expert.

   3. CWChris Williamson2:55

      Okay. Who are the biggest culprits of quantum bullshit in your view? You know, do you remember the FBI had that deck of cards-

   4. CFChris Ferrie3:04

      (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson3:04

      ... and there was like the ace of spades-

   6. CFChris Ferrie3:06

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson3:06

      ... was number one and so on and so forth. Who would be in your deck of cards?

   8. CFChris Ferrie3:10

      Yeah, that's a good question. In, in the book I try not to give much attention to specific instances because, you know, I, (laughs) I'm afraid someone will go there and be like, "Oh, yeah, that, that feels good to me. I'm, (laughs) I'm gonna go with that instead of the difficult, you know-

   9. CWChris Williamson3:25

      Thankfully everyone-

   10. CFChris Ferrie3:26

       ... complex process." (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson3:26

       ... everyone watching this is way too rational for that-

   12. CFChris Ferrie3:28

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson3:28

       ... for that to be a concern.

   14. CFChris Ferrie3:29

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson3:29

       So you have carte blanche.

   16. CFChris Ferrie3:31

       I think, I think the, probably the most famous, uh, e- example is, is Deepak Chopra, who's been at it for a while. He had a book called Quantum Healing going back ages, but that's, you know, that kind of stuff has been debunked many times over, but it keeps, keeps coming back, right? You know, someone will debunk it, uh, he'll kind of disappear, and then he'll discover like YouTube and then he'll blow up again 'cause he has a new audience, um, of people that didn't listen to the debunking. Uh, so yeah, so I think he's, he's one of the worst examples I would say just 'cause he has such a, had such a huge influence, uh, and a big platform. Most of them, they, they're just, they just disappear almost as quickly as they arrive. You know, if you've ... Hopefully not, you didn't, nobody's done this but like if you actually kind of click on a, on a link that you shouldn't, it usually takes you down this path of, you know, websites that, that look like you might be able to put your credit card information in, but sometimes you can't even do that, like the websites don't even work. Like you have to be right on the ball if you want to actually waste money 'cause they just happen so quickly. Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson4:46

       Mere quantum fluctuations in the world of-

   18. CFChris Ferrie4:48

       (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson4:49

       ... quantum bullshit.

   20. CFChris Ferrie4:50

       Yeah. Yeah. And then there's obviously, yeah, YouTube videos. It's endless, right? Um-

   21. CWChris Williamson4:55

       Are you familiar with, um, Gaia? Have you heard of that?

   22. CFChris Ferrie4:59

       Gaia?

   23. CWChris Williamson5:00

       Yes.

   24. CFChris Ferrie5:01

       Uh, oh, like the, the Hindu god?

   25. CWChris Williamson5:04

       It's a streaming platform that's-

   26. CFChris Ferrie5:06

       Oh, okay. (laughs)

   27. CWChris Williamson5:06

       ... re- re-appropriated the name of a, a Hindu god. Um, and it's like Netflix but for sort of spiritual woo stuff.

   28. CFChris Ferrie5:16

       Okay. Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson5:17

       Uh, I, I fear that you may have had an aneurysm if you'd-

   30. CFChris Ferrie5:21

       (laughs)
3. 7:57 – 11:49

   Is Quantum Energy Healing True?

   1. CWChris Williamson7:57

      of the key terms that you're talking about here is quantum energy and energy medicine and quantum healing and stuff like that. What are the claims that are made by the people that talk about this stuff?

   2. CFChris Ferrie8:11

      Well, there's this idea that, mm, you know, e- every ... Yeah. Well, okay, so some, some of it is like, morally true. You have to distinguish between like, colloquial notions of energy that we, we all use today, right? That you know, we tell children and you know, all energy comes from the sun and plants take in energy from the sun and that's where we get our energy. And if you don't eat then you'll feel tired because you need energy, right? These are all just like, colloquial definitions but there's technical definitions as well. And people, people often, you know, mix these up and they'll say, "Well, I have my, you know, my everyday notion of energy and then I read this thing about quantum physics and, and energy, the concept there and it feels similar so that supports my interpretation," right? Which is not grounded in science. So with energy it's that there's this, uh, you know, latent energy that's just spread out throughout the universe and you can somehow tap into it if you, uh, you know, you think hard enough or you meditate or you pull out your credit card and spend 20 bucks or whatever. But that's not how energy works, right? (laughs) There's no, uh, there's no, uh, kind of mystical source of, of energy, right? Scientifically, it's measurable and that's-

   3. CWChris Williamson9:35

      Well, how do you know, how do you know that there isn't quantum energy?

   4. CFChris Ferrie9:39

      Well, I don't but the thing is, well there, okay ... I know that there is, there is, there is quantum energy, right? I mean that's sort of what, what we study, what we research and what I teach to, to students. But it's not the same kind of energy as this mystical force that permeates the universe. How do I know? Well, I think that's a deeper, deeper question. I mean, it's a somewhat a phil- a philosophical question like, what does it mean to know something? In science, we have a very, uh, very clear notion, right? If, if you can measure and perform repeatable experiments and those experiments give similar or the same results then we can say that we, we know something and we assign some, some objective notion to that. At least an inter-subjective notion that we, we all sort of come to agree that, that we're going to include that in our, in our m- mental model of reality. Uh, that's, yeah, that's how it works in science. So un- unless you can measure it and you can tell someone the procedure by which you measured it and they can repeat it then it's not scientific. But that doesn't mean it's, it's wrong. It's just probably useless.

   5. CWChris Williamson10:58

      Right. And when people talk about energy healing they're not just talking about repurposing their kilojoules from a Snickers this afternoon into somebody else's body. They're talking about tapping into some sort of extra special quantum field that gives them the ability to go in and fix your past trauma or, or your athlete's foot or your, your gluten intolerance or whatever it is that you're dealing with.

   6. CFChris Ferrie11:21

      Yeah, exactly (laughs) . Um, yeah, that's right. So yeah, if you can put, uh, put a number like kilojoules on it, um, then it becomes measurable and, and then, and then you can make predictions and yeah, say what, what you could do with it by con- ... Now it's been connected to the rest, rest of the scientific, uh, corpus and you can start to make use of it.

4. 11:49 – 19:23

   The Problem with Spirituality

   1. CFChris Ferrie11:49

   2. CWChris Williamson11:49

      Why is it the case that spirituality is such a hotbed for so much of this stuff? It's like a quantum theory of the gaps almost.

   3. CFChris Ferrie12:00

      Yeah, that's right. Um, we, we do have a, a desire to know. Like as humans we, we despise uncertainty, uh, we want to have some idea that we-... we, we have everything sorted out, we, you know, uh ... and when there is, when there is a gap in our knowledge, w- we have, we just can't help but, but fill it. And really, the, the problem is, it's, sometimes it's not fillable, and so you get people that come in and provide, uh, yeah, very attractive options to fill these gaps, and people maybe just don't have the time or energy or, or, you know, understanding to know when, yeah, when they should use a proposed solution or, or, or not.

   4. CWChris Williamson12:52

      But what is it about quantum physics specifically, do you think, that's allowing this speculation to be sucked in?

   5. CFChris Ferrie13:00

      It ... So th- I think the, the recipe is like you have some, some ... so you start with some problem, you know, you gave some examples, athlete's foot or, you know, trauma or whatever, uh, and then someone comes along and says, "You know, that's a really, really hard problem, right? And it's gonna take some, some complicated, almost miraculous solutions. I happen to have those, right? And, and don't worry because, you know, I know quantum physics and if you know anything about quantum physics, it's super complicated and it has all this counterintuitive stuff so don't worry about all that. Just, just know that I've talked to the experts or, or I'm an expert myself." And that sort of, uh, you know, placates the, the person into accepting this miraculous solution. So I, I think that's, that's kind of the, the crux of the problem, right? That quantum physics isn't well, well understood. It has a reputation. You know, even scientists get, get out in front of public and say that it's counterintuitive and mystical and, and then w- so when someone repeats that, you're, you're inclined to believe it. And if, especially if you have a problem where you have s- you feel like you've somehow tr- tested out sort of the scientific route or the medical route, like you went to a doctor and the doctor didn't help you, right, didn't give you the right pills or didn't give you a procedure to, to fix your problem, now you, you have, you're inclined to distrust science, um, and so when someone comes along, you know, the rogue scientist that, uh, that real doctors don't want you to know about, um, then, yeah, you're kind of ... y- y- you, you feel compelled to, to believe them, um, because they're, they're somewhat aligned with you, right? They say, "Well, I'm against, uh, the status quo. I'm against convention and, and I have the backing of this miraculous, super mysterious and complex, complex theory, so it's, you know, it's way better." And yeah, people buy into it.

   6. CWChris Williamson15:15

      Yeah, there's a, a number of th- uh, elements, I think, of quantum theory, the, the sort of quantum world that lends itself, um, to charlatans and grifters being able to insert themselves, one of them being the fact that it is not particularly easy to understand. Even me, who's done episodes with Michio Kaku and Sean Carroll and, you know, a, a ton, a shit ton of different physicists who are very, very highly acclaimed, if someone asks me over a cocktail party to explain what qu- quantum gravity is or quantum theory or why we can't reconcile general relativity with quantum gravity, I can't explain it. I can't even begin to explain it, right? And I've had hours and hours of conversations about it. So first off, you have a, a topic which is difficult for people to get into. That means that someone can be a gatekeeper to knowledge, kind of in the same way that in the Middle Ages, the Bible was not translated into the common language because that meant that the priests, uh, and the clergymen were the, uh, funnel through which your communication with God could only occur, right? You had to go through them. It, r- you were beholden to them because it was the only way that you could access this kind of information, and it, it kind of feels the same way. On top of that, I do think that, and I, I, I'm gonna guess that you would agree, a lot of the information that you find out at the quantum level is very different to what we experience up here at the big sort of level. There's all the, everything kind of behaves in a very different way. It's almost like a different universe, right? It's not. It's part of our universe, it's just really, really, really small. But it is very, it behaves in a different way and that makes people think, oh, well, maybe because it behaves in a different way, there are some degrees of freedom that allow me to extract that type of movement and momentum and energy out into the real world and I can kind of insert my own choose your own adventure, choose your own energy healing thing into that world. Um, and when you have that, it, it, the difficulty of being able to understand, the blurriness around what it is, uh, and certain people that are able to posit themselves as experts, it is just a breeding ground for people that are charlatans and grifters. My, uh, roommate, Zac Tallender has this thing he calls the charlatan playbook. And diet is another one of these because, you know, even the best dieticians on the planet, it's really hard to do the interventions. We don't particularly know what's going on despite the fact that everybody eats multiple times per day. Uh, and there's a ton of contested stuff around it. Where do they insert themselves? Right into diet because it's this gate kept knowledge and it's kind of hard to understand and you can sort of wish it, think it, believe it and achieve it. So I, I understand why I think both spirituality that, uh, attract a particular type of person, some wishful thinking, a lot of placebo effect, some of this sort of spiritual woo, uh, language and quantum theory, the world of quantum physics, which is like the scientific counterpart to that with sufficient, uh, unknowns and degrees of freedom that people can, can make it happen, I can see how that would be a, a marriage made in hell perhaps.

   7. CFChris Ferrie18:13

      (laughs) Yeah, quantum avocados.

   8. CWChris Williamson18:16

      Ah.

   9. CFChris Ferrie18:17

      No, that's, I think that's a very, uh ... Uh, yeah, no, you hit on some r- really good points. I, I, um, I totally agree that, uh ... Uh, and s- but the, I guess, you know, sometimes public engagement, you know, scientific communicators do act really a- as the gatekeepers of, of knowledge and, uh, I think some of them enjoy that, enjoy being in that position rather than ... You know, maybe they set out to say, "I'm gonna educate the world on, on my particular topic of interest," and then, and then they quickly, you know, buy into the, the fame, right, and become sort of the gurus. And, you know, I can imagine, you know, it feels good, you know, when people-

   10. CWChris Williamson19:00

       It's alluring, man.

   11. CFChris Ferrie19:00

       ... ask you. Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson19:01

       Yeah, being the, being the, the fucking gatekeeper of this knowledge, it's alluring.

   13. CFChris Ferrie19:06

       Yeah. Uh, or, I mean, I haven't made it that f- that far yet. So, uh, I, I'm still (laughs) I, I still just-

   14. CWChris Williamson19:13

       That's next. I'm waiting for the-

   15. CFChris Ferrie19:14

       ... work people.

   16. CWChris Williamson19:14

       I'm waiting for the quantum energy healing-

   17. CFChris Ferrie19:17

       Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson19:17

       ... that y- that doctors don't really want you to know about pivot for Chris Ferrie.

   19. CFChris Ferrie19:22

       (laughs)

   20. CWChris Williamson19:22

       Um, so one of the

5. 19:23 – 27:24

   Explaining Vibrational Frequencies

   1. CWChris Williamson19:23

      other terms that y- m- a lot of people listening will have heard about will have been vibrational frequencies.

   2. CFChris Ferrie19:30

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson19:30

      What do you think people mean? Or what do you think people think they mean when they talk about vibrational frequencies?

   4. CFChris Ferrie19:39

      Uh, yeah. Well, let me, let me just point, point out that, uh, just so that, like, there's, like, a clear demarcation, right? So energy, the conventional concept or everyday notion of energy is that i- includes the, the idea that it, it flows, right? It's continuous. And what quantum brings to the table is that that's not, that's not true at the most fundamental level of understanding we have. Energy comes in discrete chunks. So energy is not like a slide that you can go up and down. It's like steps. You have to be on a step. These steps are incredibly tiny. You'd never notice them in everyday life, but they're there, right? So that's sort of the difference between quantum and classical energy. That, that's never actually used in any of the bullshit, right? They don't actually use the real kind of concept of energy. Um, but f- frequency is similar. So again, w- we kind of understand that the, how energy is mediated between things is through waves. So, you know, there's electromagnetic waves that we're using right now to communicate over the internet. Uh, there is sound waves that come from the speaker in, in your headset or, or on the speakers on your device, that's v- uh, vibrating air molecules. S- that's traveling as a wave. So waves carry energy. Now, in order for that energy to be received, that thing has to resonate. So we, again, it's just another one of these words that is, has many meanings, right? There's colloquial meanings and there's technical meanings. Um, th- it, they're very similar. So when you say something resonates, it's like you're in tune with it, but technically it's when the wave that could potentially interact with the thing is around the same size as, as the object. So if you think about water waves, I think is an excellent example. So imagine, you know, you're, you're a boat and there are just in, there's an enormous swell in, in the middle of the ocean. You wouldn't even notice, right? Like, you look around and it looks like it's pretty flat around where you are because this, you know, you can't see the next, the next peak in the wave. And if there's tiny ripples, you wouldn't notice those as well. When do you notice a wave if you're a boat? It's when the distance between the peaks is about the same size as the boat, right? So that one end of the boat is at the top and the other end of the boat has gone to the bottom. So when things are around the same size as the wave, that's when there's, there's a, an interaction. And that, that's when you, quote unquote, "resonate" with it. Uh, so, uh, there's, yeah, example, uh, just s- sort of look around you and there's examples everywhere, like, uh

   5. CWChris Williamson24:17

      So, when people say vibrational frequencies, what they're probably talking about is their emotional state, how they're receiving other people's emotional states, what they're putting out into the universe and how that's impacting a field, the quantum field, perhaps?

   6. CFChris Ferrie24:35

      (laughs) Yeah. So, so you, you, you do have a w- you do have, like, several wavelengths associated with you and different parts of your body. Again, like your retina is associated with a certain wavelength that's tuned to visible light. Your eardrum is as- associated with wavelengths of sound, you know, uh, what, 15 hertz up to however f- you know, whatever it is, 44,000 hertz. Um, and your entire body can act like an antenna as well, which is tuned to roughly 10 hertz. So if, if someone was blasting a, a speaker that was 10 hertz, and, you know, if you've been to concerts maybe you kind of can, can feel this, right? Really, really low base, some of which you can't hear with your ears, but you can feel in your body. That's because you are, you are an antenna. And certain parts of your body will resonate with electromagnetic frequencies as well, and those are, you know, regulated by the FCC, sometimes because it's unhealthy, but most of the time just because it, you know, if, if human bodies are absorbing the signal then you're not gonna be able to get signal to your smartphone, so don't use those frequencies, right? Like, engineers don't think of humans as things that they don't want to harm, they think of things that are in the way of their Wi-Fi signals. The, if ... Now, now there, there is this, there is this notion that, like, if, um, you know, if we agree on something or we have the same opinion then somehow we are in tune, right, you know, that opinion resonates with me. Uh, which, which is, you know, it's a, it's a fine way to communicate and, and it works because it, it, it's embedded within a system of language that we all understand and we can make use of. But it, it has its limitations, and if you, if you start to say that it does things beyond just, you know, helping social interactions and people come to agreements, then, then you're in trouble because, you know, th- those, those things aren't verifiable.

   7. CWChris Williamson26:49

      And by this we're talking about someone genuinely having a physical connection between themselves and somebody else, that them and the other interlocutor are, uh, moving or, or, or attached through some kind of quantum wave or quantum energy field in a strange way.

   8. CFChris Ferrie27:10

      Yeah, that's right. So th- if, if that were true then you should be able to measure it, right? Uh, and if, if you can't measure it then you can't verify it, so it's, it's just magical thinking otherwise.

   9. CWChris Williamson27:23

      But

6. 27:24 – 30:26

   Can Everything Be Measured?

   1. CWChris Williamson27:24

      how much quantum physics can we measure? Is, is it possible in your view as somebody who has spent an awfully long time studying quantum physics that this could be something that exists? Or is the only way that this exists if it is tapping into something which is outside of the field of quantum physics most likely?

   2. CFChris Ferrie27:45

      I- So y- you could take this point of view, right, that, that ev- everything in the world is, is just atoms, right? You know, nowadays, you know, we teach this to children, or at least I do, um, that all of this stuff around us, including your body, is made of atoms. And the world is just, uh, one ... Everything you see is built up of several of 118 elements that we often see arranged on the periodic table. That's it. That's all there is to the, to the universe, it's ... Everything is just a bunch of these atoms stuck together in different arrangements. And their, their interactions are mediated by electromagnetic waves. So, with that understanding there are, there are things that are just ruled out. So I, I can't, I, I, I can't have a physical interaction with you. I mean, again, it's, it's somewhat subtle, right? Be- because, uh, in some sense I, I, I can influence you, right? If, if I pause for long enough then you'll probably say something, um, and that's happening at a distance. But d- so it really depends on the kind of claim that you want to make, right? Usually, i- the, they're, they're quite, they seemingly miraculous things and, and, you know, you, you apply a simple, a simple rule, right? "If it sounds too good to be true then it probably is." So if, if it sounds too good to be true then it, it, it's not part of science, and not part of quantum physics. Look, quantum physics is used to explain this, this idea of the world, that everything is made of these fundamental building blocks, and what we see around us is just a built up of many, many interactions of many of these things. And we, you know, we understand that to an extent that our entire modern world is built on, on quantum physics. Everything around you, you know, the, the device you're using, the, the scans you get, eh, when you go to, when you go see the doctor, um, compact discs if anyone remembers those. Um, you know, lasers, uh, clocks, GPS, the internet, computers, everything is, is built from this understanding that the world is made of atoms and if we put th- these together in various ways then we can put that to, to good use.

   3. CWChris Williamson30:25

      ... I was on

7. 30:26 – 35:55

   Consequences of Believing Without Knowing

   1. CWChris Williamson30:26

      a boat party talking to, uh, a girl that was part of another, uh, group that had turned up. And, uh, she seemed, uh, perfectly nice and was explaining about her, uh, young son and what she hoped for him in the future and the job that she was doing and all of the rest of it. And I was asking about how she'd, uh, like, uh, changed. She made some job changes recently, I think. Uh, and she said, "Yeah, I, uh, I just really started raising my frequency." And I thought, "Well, now I'm interested." And I asked, "What do you mean when you say that?"

   2. CFChris Ferrie30:57

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson30:57

      And she said, "Well, you know, I, I, I s- sort of changed the way that I thought and I, I adjusted my emotions." And I said, "Yeah, okay, but what about, what about the frequency thing?" And she says, "Well, you know, emotions have got a frequency. They vibrate at a frequency." And I said, "Okay, what do you mean by that?" And she says, "Well, they, they've, they vibrate, you know, 'cause they vibrate at a frequency and I changed..." And I was like, "Right, but what do you mean by that?"

   4. CFChris Ferrie31:21

      (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson31:21

      And I kept on asking the what question and it resulted in her saying the sentence, "I believe in quantum physics."

   6. CFChris Ferrie31:28

      (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson31:30

      Like this was some, uh, like, uh, uh, a walled off garden, a castle that she could retreat into-

   8. CFChris Ferrie31:37

      Right.

   9. CWChris Williamson31:37

      ... that would explain something that I didn't understand, but, uh, self-evidently neither did she.

   10. CFChris Ferrie31:45

       Right.

   11. CWChris Williamson31:45

       Um, "I believe in quantum physics." And, uh, she did leave, uh, not long after this. I think that I was very polite. I didn't, like, I don't know, take the piss.

   12. CFChris Ferrie31:56

       (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson31:56

       But I did push a good bit to say, "What do you mean, 'I raised my frequency?'"

   14. CFChris Ferrie32:00

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson32:00

       "What do you mean emotions have a frequency and they vibrate at a frequency?" And, "What do you mean, 'I believe in quantum physics?'" Like, genuinely, for the love of God, what the fuck do you mean?

   16. CFChris Ferrie32:10

       (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson32:11

       And I, I, I don't think... I don't think that she really knew, and I think this kind of taps into what you're talking about with the, the good, the bad, and the ugly of quantum physics, uh, uh, and also maybe even Deepak Chopra, uh, uh, as somebody who, from the outside, m- might seem willfully negligent or, or kind of, like, jovially, uh, ignorant, purposefully ignorant in a way that benefits perhaps himself. But it can start people down a slippery slope toward believing in things that become increasingly and, uh, more and more disempowering, uh, and less and less accurate, uh, to the world around them. And it can also cause people to do things like abandon their cancer treatment in place of going to do crystal healing and stuff. I'm pretty sure that, uh, wasn't it, um, Steve Jobs who decided to try and do some very holistic sort of woo things to try and cure his, was it pancreatic cancer? Incredibly treatable, 90%-ish recovery rate had he have just decided to go and get standard treatment from Western medicine. Uh, and he went to, uh, somewhere in Tibet or, or, or India or something-

   18. CFChris Ferrie33:28

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson33:28

       ... and then sat in a cave and had, uh, some treatment and, you know, we lost one of the greatest marketers and product inventors of ever (scoffs) because of that. Which shows that it doesn't really matter how smart you are, that these kinds of ideas, I don't know how quantumy Steve Jobs' world view was, um, but th- these ideas can take ahold of people. And it is a very slippery slope. You know, the... If the thin end of the wedge is just believing in entanglement and two people that love each other have an emotional connection that transcends space, time, and physics as we know it, it is just a difference of degree all the way down to, "I don't need chemotherapy because I've got some tiger stones at home."

   20. CFChris Ferrie34:09

       (laughs) Yeah. Y- no, that's right. I mean, we like to say, "Okay, that's innocent," whatever. But the, the... I think it, the, the issue is that, again, people want simple stories, right? And they're, once they have a story that they're comfortable with, that they stick with it. The, as, as scientists, this is just our, our basic state, you know. We... In order to make progress, you need some, some assumptions, right? But we're always ready to abandon those assumptions when they lead us astray. So if, if you accept some set of assumptions, some story, then you're eventually going to be led down that, down the wrong path if you need to have every new piece of evidence or new piece of information fit within that story. And y- you know, you... Ex- extreme examples are, like, cons- conspiracy theorists, like flat-Earthers, right? Um, so in order to believe that th- the Earth is flat and then be told that people live in Australia, in order to make those two things, like, fit together, right, you have to say th- like, we're all actors, right? And, you know, we're in Hollywood and there isn't really a place called Australia. Um, I mean, some of us don't even have Australian accents. Uh, but that, that, I think, is, is the problem, right? That I, I'm, I'm fine with people making assumptions and having simple stories. I, I do it all the time, even within a scientific context. But you have to be ready to abandon them when those, those analogies, those stories no longer are fit for purpose.

   21. CWChris Williamson35:54

       You had a quote

8. 35:55 – 38:58

   Why You Should Ignore Quantum Relationship Advice

   1. CWChris Williamson35:55

      in the book from Quantum Love, and you said, "When you use the power of the quantum field, honing your emotions and intentions to create the frequency or vibration of that desire, you will draw the things you want to you."

   2. CFChris Ferrie36:12

      (laughs) Yeah, no, that doesn't, doesn't work like that.

   3. CWChris Williamson36:14

      What the fuck does that mean?

   4. CFChris Ferrie36:17

      Uh, that's... Yeah, that's an interesting book. I think probably one of the, my favorite examples of quantum bullshit, because the person who wrote that book, Dr. Laura Berman, I think she's Oprah's love expert or relationship expert or something. You know, has a PhD from New York University, uh-

   5. CWChris Williamson36:32

      In what?

   6. CFChris Ferrie36:33

      ... probably sociology, uh, other than (laughs) that's right. Dude, the pivot, the seamless- Mm-hmm. (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson36:41

      ... pivot from sociology-

   8. CFChris Ferrie36:43

      (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson36:43

      ... into fucking quantum physics-

   10. CFChris Ferrie36:46

       (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson36:46

       ... is so brazen. I work so hard to gain fucking millimeters-

   12. CFChris Ferrie36:53

       (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson36:53

       ... every single year in self-confidence, and then there are people that decide to abandon social science-

   14. CFChris Ferrie36:58

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson36:59

       ... and just dip into quantum theory. Like, uh, fair play. Do you know what I mean?

   16. CFChris Ferrie37:02

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson37:02

       Fair play to her.

   18. CFChris Ferrie37:04

       Well, I think, uh, yeah. I mean, if, if that's allowed, then, uh, then I can, I can give people relationship advice. Why not? Um-

   19. CWChris Williamson37:10

       Damn right.

   20. CFChris Ferrie37:11

       (laughs) But so she, in her book, actually, uh, if you read, like, the first chapter, it's her explanation of quantum physics, which, you know, reads like something that would be in, you know, M- Scientific American or some popular science magazine. It's, it's, it's not accurate, but it's no less accurate than, than what you would see from even a science journalist. And then, the problems start to arise is when she tries to connect that to her particular area of, of expertise. Um, but yeah. I mean, all relationship advice is the same. It's just, it has different sort of layers of bullshit slapped on it, um, and her, she decided what, you know, there's a (laughs) , there's a gap for quantum physics in there (laughs) .

   21. CWChris Williamson38:00

       Quantum it. Make it quantum.

   22. CFChris Ferrie38:01

       Um-

   23. CWChris Williamson38:01

       Quantum love.

   24. CFChris Ferrie38:02

       But that, yeah, that, the, then when you make a claim like that one that you just read out, that is a very specific claim, which is, is comically untrue. I, I mean, I, I don't know... Again, you, there are all, all of these cognitive biases that come in, right? So if I say, "Okay, well, I read the book, and I did the sort of exc- exercises that she suggested, and, and then, uh, you know, I played, I played the lotto, and I, I won $20." So it must've been, it must've been that, right? So there's confirmation bias happening all the time, right? Because the other 100 tickets that you played didn't win. Um, so, yeah. Again, it's, you know, it's these, it's these huge gaps and all of these cognitive biases that people aren't aware of, that, that allow these things to thrive.

   25. CWChris Williamson38:56

       Well, there's also a placebo effect,

9. 38:58 – 43:31

   Ethics of the Expectation Effect

   1. CWChris Williamson38:58

      which is unbelievably strong, right? And-

   2. CFChris Ferrie39:00

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson39:00

      ... I'm kind of torn, and, uh, this is more an ethical question, but, uh, the placebo effect, or the expectation effect as David Robson would call it, which kind of expands it out from, uh, taking substances to s- to expectations too, that we have around the world, is the most reliable effect in all of pharmacology or, uh, uh, uh, medicine, right?

   4. CFChris Ferrie39:21

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson39:21

      If you could bottle it, you would have a panacea, and, you know, they've shown that studies where people take sugar pills that they've been told are sugar pills have better outcomes than people that don't. And they've been told that it's a fucking placebo. So-

   6. CFChris Ferrie39:36

      (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson39:36

      ... you know, I, uh, uh, i- it, I, um, disregard the expectation effect as little as I can. I think that it, it, it is very, very useful. But the mechanism that this thing is working on is not what's being claimed. The outcome can be-

   8. CFChris Ferrie39:54

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson39:54

      ... something which is positive in the direction of what you wanted to occur, but the mechanism that you said it op- operated on is not accurate. And is, is conning people or duping people or lying to people or convincing them that a particular thing works worth the outcome, because the only way that that outcome can be achieved is by getting them to believe it, which means that you need to give them a sufficiently convincing lie? I'm not sure. And I'm definitely not sure when there is a slippery slope down toward believing-

   10. CFChris Ferrie40:27

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson40:27

       ... things which stop you gaining some of the benefits of expectation effect and actually start causing you to believe a whole host of other silly woo.

   12. CFChris Ferrie40:37

       Yeah. I guess the, the, uh, the issue, I, I think, is that there's a huge gray area, right? The, there is, there is no truth, right? We have, we have models of reality. We have these, these simple stories that tell cause and effect relationships or chains of events, but th- but these, but these aren't true in any s- universal sense of, of the word. There is no universal truth. There, there's a big gray area. And when you think about it that way, you can start to see, okay, well, there, there are things that are more truthy and things that, that are clearly untrue. But even the, our best theories, uh, are, are just useful theories. They're, they're not true theories. So our understanding of how the placebo effect works probably has something to do with, with, uh, you know, human psychology and potentially we can get down to, uh, you know, chemical, uh, y- yeah, chemicals-

   13. CWChris Williamson41:40

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CFChris Ferrie41:40

       ... that, that ha- are being passed around within our body. And at some point, you can say, "Well, you know, those chemicals are made of molecules, which are made of at..." So, you know, it's all, uh, yeah. It's, at some point, it's all ba- can be understood as being based on quantum physics. But I think you have to have these different layers of explanation and accept that, uh, at, at, at any point, none of them are true in any objective sense of the word. They're useful. So h- I think we should accept these lies if they, if they give, give us mileage. But as soon as they stop giving us a return for believing it, then we should abandon it. Uh, so if you want to say, "Well, you know, uh, this placebo effect works because, uh, you know, there's some, some quantum interactions that are happening in the brain, and if you think the right way, you can make those align."... and that achieves the outcome that you want, the person gets, gets better, that's great. But maybe, maybe it kind of, everything should just have an implicit disclaimer like, "Your mileage may vary. If you, if you use this model to do something else, it probably won't work."

   15. CWChris Williamson43:00

       The problem that you have there is that stopping people at the bounds of, "This is what it's good for and it's not good for much else, or it's good for a, a small number of things," isn't the way that human brains work.

   16. NANarrator43:11

       (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson43:11

       You know? If we, if we find success and, and win 20 quid because we did a right energy crystal healing and tapped into the quant- the quantum realm, I mean, that's gonna fix everything. Like, my chronic flatulence is fixed by it, my erectile dysfunction is fixed by it, like everything. Do you know what I mean? Um,

10. 43:31 – 48:18

    What People Misunderstand About Uncertainty

    1. CWChris Williamson43:31

       moving on to another very common question around quantum physics, uncertainty, the uncertainty principle. What are people getting wrong about Schrödinger and his cat and, and, and-

    2. CFChris Ferrie43:44

       (laughs)

    3. CWChris Williamson43:44

       ... uncertainty and all the rest of it?

    4. CFChris Ferrie43:47

       Yeah. So this one's a, I would say is one of the probably more mild ones. So, uh, nobody's ... It's just such a, an abstract concept that I don't think it's made its way into, into these other, uh, these, these other places.

    5. CWChris Williamson44:00

       Uh, no one's found a way to monetize it yet is what you're saying, Chris?

    6. CFChris Ferrie44:03

       Yeah. (laughs) Yeah. Yeah. So uncertainty, it's, it's kind of the hallmark of, of quantum physics uh, so... And there's this famous story that how it was discovered by Werner Heisenberg, who had hay fever. So he secluded himself on this island w- uh, and it came to him in like in a dream or something like that, and he woke up one morning and had to write something down. And, you know, it, it wasn't like, oh, he just, you know, w- wrote it down on a stone tablet and then brought it back to (laughs) to Copenhagen. It was more, uh, you know, he had this idea, scribble it down, and then he developed it over, over, you know, probably weeks to months. And it was probably some mess when it started, but eventually, you know, we retell the story as, as it was like this e- eureka moment where he basically had this idea of trying to measure the property of something. So he... there's this idea of Heisenberg's microscope. So if you know how a, a microscope works, a light microscope, you shine light on something, light bounces off of it, and then, you know, gets magnified and enters your eye. Then he thought, "Well, what if the thing I was trying to, to look at with the microscope was a single, a single atom or a single electron, like, fundamental subatomic particle? Well, when I shine light on it, which is fundamentally other particles, it's like two billiard balls hitting each other."

    7. CWChris Williamson45:33

       (laughs)

    8. CFChris Ferrie45:33

       So, just simp- the simple fact of trying to measure something m- alters it in, in some way. So if I shine the light on the electron, yeah, it's gonna bounce off and then come and hit my eye and then I can infer something about where it was and other properties of it. But now I've imparted something onto that electron and it's gonna take off in some other direction, some random direction th- that I don't know. So that... H- so his notion was you can't simultaneously know where something is and how fast and where it's going at the same time.

    9. CWChris Williamson46:11

       (laughs)

    10. CFChris Ferrie46:11

        You can choose to measure one property, but you can't obtain everything there is to know about both properties. Nowadays, we understand the concept a, a, a bit more subtly. The, the real crux of the issue is that these properties aren't even defined. Like, it, it, it doesn't make sense to say that there is something preexisting in the world, and our job as obser- as observers is to go and figure out what those properties were, that were there regardless of whether we chose to go and measure them or not. So you can choose to measure by setting up some apparatus to measure position of s- of something, find out where it is.

    11. CWChris Williamson46:54

        (laughs)

    12. CFChris Ferrie46:55

        But by doing so, by arranging that apparatus, you've caused something else about it to be undefined. So there isn't some set, a preexisting set of properties in the world. Now, this gets sort of caricatured as, um, yeah, you... when you measure something, you affect it. And so you see this a lot in popular culture. Um, there, there's another, a related effect in psychology called the Hawthorne effect w- or the observer effect, wh- which is like if I prime someone before I ask them questions, then the responses will be different than had I not primed them. So if, uh, if... like, when you do these psychological studies, like, if you know the context of the study, then you're not going to act in a natural way, right? So th- this is basically why you should take every psychological study with a grain of salt, because, you know, people aren't going to act naturally when they're set in a, in a white room with one chair and asked to do a task, right? That's not th- their natural state. They know they're being observed, so they're going to behave, behave differently. And this sounds similar, like it has, uses a similar set of words and a similar set of concepts, but it's unrelated. Like, the, the effect in psychology has nothing to do with, with the effect in quantum physics. They just seem similar.

    13. CWChris Williamson48:16

        Yeah. There

11. 48:18 – 58:51

    Can We Be Quantum Entangled to Someone Else?

    1. CWChris Williamson48:18

       is a associated phenomenon that people talk about a lot, I guess, which is quantum entanglement, the ability of something to travel faster than the speed of light, and then this kind of gets stretched out to talk about connection to the cosmos because we're becoming quantum entangled with somebody else through love and spiritual connection and stuff like that. What is and is not bullshit about quantum entanglement?

    2. CFChris Ferrie48:43

       Yeah, that, that's a tough one because it's probably the most, uh, abstract and concept in quantum physics. A- at its basis, if you try to understand quantum physics from the point of view of information, um, maybe more of an engineering, uh, point of view, then a lot of these things become clear. Again, the, the issue in quantum physics is that it... At, at the same time it tells us that there, there is no fundamental reality, there is no thing out there that's independent of us waiting for us to come and observe it. But in order to make progress as humans with our limited m- you know, mental capabilities, we have to create these sort of concrete stories of reality. But, you know, as soon as you do that, you've (laughs) violated the one principle of quantum physics. So we d- we do this as physicists as well because, you know, it, it's difficult to carry around all of these abstract conceptual concepts. It's much easier to just have some concrete physical model in mind, and then, uh, apply our notions to that. So w- with entanglement, you know, the basic idea is so you have two, two particles and you interact them in some way, and then you separate them. And if you've done it in a, in a clever way, then they, the state of those particles is, is some special s- state that we call entangled. And, and what that means is if I measure a property of one and I get some outcome which is random, I'll, I'll get the same outcome on, on the other one. And it seems like because I can choose which measurement to do on one side, that I have somehow influenced the other one. And you'll see this in... repeated by scientists and, you know, in science magazines and, uh, there was a recent article even in the N- The New York Times that, uh, quoted a scientist that said exactly this. "Entanglement is when things, particles are separated, and doing one thing in- instantaneously affects the other one." But that's not at all w- what happens. This is, this is, you know, the... All of these problems that we've been talking about repeated, but by scientists. Once you've committed to the story of there's physical things in the world and, and then you have this other, this other piece of information all that, you know, they seem to be correlated in every possible way I can choose, then you're forced to say something instantaneous hap- happened. But that's just not true. There's th- there's no, there's no influence, there's no information, nothing is traveling faster than light. Now, everything is connected, right? So the, e- gravity is, is a simple example, right? Um, the... Gravity has no, no bound, right? It, it... The force of gravity drops off the further two objects get o- move away from each other, but there is a force of gravity between you and the moon, and you and the sun, and you and all of the planets, and all of the stars, right? It's just imperceptibly small. And that, but that, that... The connection, say, bet- between those two is mediated by, uh, you know, Einstein's field, but it can't travel faster than light. So, uh, there's no sense in which those things can influence me on any timescale that's relevant to me. I can shoot a laser and, you know, it, it, it, it, it will take a few seconds to, to hit the moon a- and back. And if I go further and further away, it just, it just takes longer. So yes, you know, in some real technical sense everything in the universe is connected, and probably everything, uh, has some small amount of entanglement if you try to model it with quantum physics. But that doesn't actually help you do anything, y- anything that was (laughs) is relevant on human scales, what, in time or in space.

    3. CWChris Williamson52:55

       How much truth is there in people talking about, uh, using quantum entanglement to be able to communicate in the future across galaxies while we could use... we could at- entangle these two things and then we'll spread them apart and then that means that we can communicate? I- is there a, a future in which you think that could happen?

    4. CFChris Ferrie53:15

       No, you... I mean, we're always limited by, by the speed of light. So y- if I, if I ta- if I entangle two particles, take one to Alpha Centauri or something, and then, you know, I've done it in a very clever way, used a- all of our advanced engineering future technology, whatever, then what it means is that they're just correlated, right? It's, it's like photocopying a book, right? Uh, but not knowing what's in it. And you separate those two books, what, what do you know? You know that when you o- when those books are opened, they're going to have the same words in them. But you, you, you know, you can't use that to communicate faster than light. In order to do anything with it, some mo- some more communication would, would happen. Now, the correlation is useful. You, you can use these correlations and in some sense, y- there's a, there's a... E- everything about our, our experience is ultimately about correlations. Like I... this conversation deals with correlations. Like we, we have a correlated dictionary of English, right? So that when I sit, speak these words, they have a meaning to you because there's this prior correlation that has been set up. But just because that correlation was there doesn't mean we could have...... said everything that needed to be said without actually having the, the conversation, right? So the ... Everything will be limited by the speed of light, and entanglement is just a new kind of correlation that we can, we can create in the world, and it can allow us to do things more efficiently, but ultimately, nothing, nothing miraculous. It doesn't-

    5. CWChris Williamson55:07

       Any sense-

    6. CFChris Ferrie55:08

       ...

    7. CWChris Williamson55:08

       Any sense that two humans can become entangled together?

    8. CFChris Ferrie55:12

       Hmm. No. So the, the ... Quantum ... I think, I ... The way I like to about, think about quantum physics is it's a theory about isolation. So when you have an object and you completely isolate it from its environment, then if you use anything but quantum physics to describe that object, and when I say describe, I mean make predictions about the outcomes of experiments that you might do, then you'll be wrong. You need to use quantum physics to, to describe that object if it's isolated from its environment. Now, if you think about, okay, well, um, you know, the atoms in my body aren't isolated, you know, why, why can I stick it in an MRI machine or something and quantum physics somehow is the, is what's powering that technology? It's that if you, if you heard anything about atoms, it's that they are mostly empty space. So maybe you've heard this idea that, uh, the chair you're sitting on is mostly empty space, and when you sit on the chair, you're not even touching the chair. There's, you know, an enormous amount of space, at least on, you know, a small enough scale, between you and the chair. Nothing ever touches, right? And, and the parts of the atoms, uh, there's, you know, vast orders of magnitude and scale between the size of the parts of the atoms, like protons, n- n- neutrons, and electrons, and the actual space between them. So basically, everything is, everything is empty space. Um, so the, uh, that's why quantum physics i- is useful to describe those things, because in some sense, they're isolated from the other things around them. Now, if you want to have something as big as a human body to be usefully explained by quantum physics, you would have to isolate it. And, well, that means no, no light, no air, uh, n- and it would cease to be a, a human pretty quickly. Uh, so y- yeah, you could, you could get a large massive object, or two of them, and, and have them entangled, but it would be nearly impossible to isolate them from their environment, and that's the real issue. Like, the bigger the object is, the more ways it can interact with stuff around it. And so you have to remove all of those possible ways in order for it to start to behave in a way that's different from, uh, our everyday, our everyday experience of the world. And I think, you know, the, the largest thing that we could probably get to be entangled might be like a, a f- a future computer chip, right, that would ... is, would be the basis of quantum computing technology. But e- even then, the, the apparatus that you have to stick around it in order to isolate it from its environment would be huge.

    9. CWChris Williamson58:08

       Aah.

    10. CFChris Ferrie58:08

        So the places that they put these things ... So if you've ever seen a picture of a quantum computer, it looks like a, a ... I mean, it looks like a giant tube, right? Uh, an enormous sort of cylindrical that ... And what that is is a dilution refrigerator, and, uh, liquid helium is used to cool the inside of that thing down to a thousandth of a degree above absolute zero, which is, which is tha- you know, thousands of times colder than even outer space. So we've created the most extreme environment in the entire universe Here on Earth just so that we can, you know, watch, watch an atom (laughs) uh, do something. (laughs)

12. 58:51 – 1:06:41

    What Can & Can’t Quantum Computing Do?

    1. CFChris Ferrie58:51

    2. CWChris Williamson58:51

       You mentioned quantum computing. You also do a ton of stuff to do with computer science. Uh, we're supposedly on the cusp of a quantum computing age, and if we get there, it's going to break all of the algorithms because everything that we've used to do credentials and, and security for cryptography is gonna be out the window. What can and can't quantum computing do?

    3. CFChris Ferrie59:14

       Well, quantum ... We don't know. I mean, there ... A great quote from, I think, like, the late 1940s from the then-CTO of IBM was, "There'll never be a market in the world for more than six computers." So clearly, um, you know, (laughs) even someone of that caliber can't make accurate predictions about future technology. Uh, so I mean, I can say a few things, but, uh, the disclaimer is I don't know and nobody knows what, what, what this will be useful for. You know, the first application of a transistor was for a hearing aid, right? And now we carry around a billion of them in our pocket. Um, the ... We have algorithms, so these are like s- you know, recipes. If you can, if you can transform this, uh, this data into this data, then you can, you can solve some problem. One of them is factoring numbers, and this is what you'd have to do to break current encryption systems that, that secure the internet. Uh, but that ... I don't think that'll be a big problem for when, when quantum computing happens, and you ... We, we can already see certain, uh, people with, with really important secrets, like state governments, uh, and large corporations, that are moving to what's called post-quantum cryptography, different encryption schemes that quantum computers, we think, won't be able to break. So if you say ... You have to, you have to ask yourself-Well, how, you know, how important is my secret? And important is, is how long do I need to keep it, right? So you can't keep a secret forever. Maybe you need to keep it for 50 years. And then if you say, "Well, if someone learned this in 50 years time, that would be bad." And then you say, "Well, quantum computers might be around in 50 years, then I should probably switch." But if you're like, you know, "I just, I, you know, like, I don't care if people know this next year, but I don't want them to know now."

    4. CWChris Williamson1:01:15

       If someone, if someone leaks my nudes in 20 years time-

    5. CFChris Ferrie1:01:18

       Yeah.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:01:18

       ... that's totally fine.

    7. CFChris Ferrie1:01:18

       Yeah, you don't care.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:01:19

       Yeah.

    9. CFChris Ferrie1:01:19

       Yeah. So you, you don't, you don't have to worry right now. You can, you can keep using, uh, (laughs)

    10. CWChris Williamson1:01:23

        iCloud or whatever.

    11. CFChris Ferrie1:01:24

        Yeah.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:01:24

        Right.

    13. CFChris Ferrie1:01:25

        Yeah. That's fine. But if you think that's, that's really important, maybe you, maybe you want to switch or, um, you know, send some cus- customer feedback to, to Apple asking them to switch. The s- But that's, so yeah, you know, we, we say quantum computers will break the internet, but pr- probably not. Most likely not. People will, you know, people are in the process of switching to post-quantum cryptography, and when quantum computers become u- ubiquitous, then we just will use something different. Um, the, the other thing, I think the, kind of the thing that you should keep in mind, you know, in the back of your mind when you think about future technology is that, um, it, it happens slowly, right? Like, y- you know, even think about probably the most transformative, uh, example would be something like ChatGPT, where it had the fastest adoption of, of any technology, yet it doesn't, it hasn't broken the way the world works, right? Like, we, we still basically interact and engage with the world the same way we did before. And the, the same will be true of quantum technology. It'll happen over a longer timescale, but it won't be like, okay, one day you just throw out your old computer and now you have a quantum computer in your house. No, it'd be, it'll be slowly integrated and the end user won't have a different experience because that would be terrible, right? You, at the end of the day, it's all driven by, uh, the economy and the, the customers, right? And what they want and what, what they'll buy. You know, Henry Ford could crawl out of the grave and step into a Tesla and happily drive it away. The interface hasn't changed, even though the entire technology behind it is different. So with quantum computers, you know, the, if you're just an average consumer and you're like, "Oh, well, what I care about is, you know, can, will I still be able to use TikTok?" then of, yeah, of course, right? Because we wouldn't develop technology that, you know, can't, can't be used in the exact same way and, and sold to the same set of people. The, the other, like, promising future prospects of quantum technology include things, uh, like quantum simulations, and that sounds like just more complicated and, and (laughs) uh, annoyingly complex, but it, it's incredibly important. So when we design new materials, when we design new, when we design new drugs, and when we want to understand how things are made, we, we want to understand them at the deepest and most fundamental level possible. So that, that is basically at the level of atoms. Like, if I could understand, uh, what sort of atoms I need to put together to make a super strong material or to make, uh, a, a material that can conduct electricity without dissipation or resistance, then, then I could do, you know, there's no, there's no limit to the imagination at that point, right? Like, just, yeah, for example, imagine you could make a, uh, a material called a superconductor that works, uh, at, at high temperatures. And so these are the things that make like levitating trains and, and, I don't know, maybe you've seen the levitating frog on YouTube. Um, if you could create a material that can conduct electricity with, with absolutely no resistance, then you wouldn't have to build, you know, coal-fired smoke plants right next to cities, right? You could just throw a whole bunch of solar panels out in the middle of the desert and the entire world would have free electricity. Why can't we do that? Well, because it's nearly impossible for us to simulate using conventional technology what happens when we put even just a few atoms together, that the number of degrees of freedom and the amount of data that we'd have to track is, is just impossible for even today's supercomputing clusters, which, you know, still attempt to do this. Like, you know, a huge fraction of the world's energy bu- budget is just simulating interactions so that we can make better fertilizer, right? Um, if you could ha- could create a computer that just natively does this without having to, to attempt to encode all of this information in a, in a really inefficient way, which is what we seem to have to do with conventional computers, then yeah, then, then all, you have all of these sort of dream applications. But we don't know exactly how we would do that with a quantum computer. We have, you know, the basic fundamental idea and some simple examples and some understanding of what it would be, what would be required. But, you know, if someone dropped a quantum computer on my lap, it's not like I would be able to get going on this right away. So the, the progress, again, will be slow. We'll see, we'll see incremental improvements. Uh, but, you know, maybe 30 years down the line, it'll... And if you look back and say, "Okay, compare now to 30 years ago," you'll say it's a huge, you know, it's an enormous change. But-

    14. CWChris Williamson1:06:39

        What about many worlds? Are we

13. 1:06:41 – 1:14:07

    Are We Part of a Multiverse?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:06:41

       part of a, a multiverse? Is the fact that I decided to say many worlds instead of multiple worlds meant that we've branched off into a different universe as well now?

    2. CFChris Ferrie1:06:52

       So, qua- quantum, this sort of quantum metaphysics, quantum philosophy, um, it's an interesting place. It's a very interesting place, because it's like, it's like woo, but, but, i- it's people with PhDs. (laughs) So it's kind of like a, it's a really, it's a really strange thing. So, I, I think it just goes to show that, yeah, there's, no matter how much you learn and how, no matter how educated you are, you can still just get attached to, to things that are, are not, to me, comically, comically miraculous. So, no, but there's no, it's an interpretation of, of quantum physics, so you have this idea of superposition, and then the cartoon explanation is like, things can be in two, two states at once, but when you go to measure them, only one, one of them occurs. Uh, so you mentioned earlier Schrodinger's cat, so that's like a famous example of you put the cat, you put a cat in a box, and inside the box, there's vial of poison and a hammer which breaks the vial, but the hammer is, will only fall if some quantum event happens. So, you arrange for that event to be in superposition, you know, uh, an atom decayed or not decayed at the same time, so that means the hammer has broken the vial or not broken the vial at the same time, which means the cat is alive and dead at the same time. But you would, whenever you, you attempted to perform this thought experiment and open the box, you'd either find an alive cat or a dead cat. Okay, so then the many worlds interpretation says, well, uh, there's a multiverse and in one branch of the multiverse there's an alive cat, in the one branch there's, there's a dead cat, and you as an observer are on one of these branches. Uh, it's not testable, um, and it, it's not, it doesn't simplify anything. I mean, I think for most people, it's, it's alluring because it gives you this ... Yeah, it, it gives you this sense that, um, that, you know, that, that you could've, you could've done things differently or that there, um, you know, there, there are better, better options that, that you could take, right? There's another, there's another version of me that, you know, it was more successful or didn't, didn't have health problems. And I think this idea that, you know, you could go back and change things, uh, it's just something that people kind of, yeah, people like. But it's, there's no, it's not, it's not based on, uh, on anything that's measurable. Like, you can't test, test the many worlds hypothesis.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:09:46

       It removes the pressure of having to make decisions as well. Because if the decision you make now, whether it be going left or going right, is just one of a number, and i- i- it almost creates this, uh, like liminal excuse, this kind of get out of jail free card that you have. Which I understand. You know, it's psychologically comforting to not be beholden to being locked into the future by whatever decisions you make now. And I understand, you know, there's parts of me that really understands, uh, is it agoraphobia? It's where people sometimes don't like to leave the house, I think.

    4. CFChris Ferrie1:10:21

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:10:21

       Uh, I, I kind of get that. I almost get the, you know, all, all the, the, um, concern around germs and stuff like that, like that there's just so many things that could happen that are outside of my control. And, and if I don't make any sort of decision or commitment or if I try and change things as little as possible, or try and make as few changes as possible to whatever state I'm in now, that would suggest that I'm going to stay safe moving forward. It, it's a, a fundamental fear of the unknown, the unexpected, the uncertain, the future. But I understand. I understand how, what, why that's psychologically disquieting. Um, but again, with the many worlds thing, if it's, if the quantum physicist says it's untestable and therefore difficult for us to work out whether or not it's true, I don't know. I, you know, you can allow people to indulge in it as a, a, a sort of psychologically comforting fantasy.

    6. CFChris Ferrie1:11:17

       It, so the person who developed it, uh, his name is Hugh Everett III, um, which is the worst, uh (laughs) -

    7. CWChris Williamson1:11:27

       Three generations of Hughs.

    8. CFChris Ferrie1:11:28

       Yeah. (laughs) Uh, he had a terrible life. Um, people didn't take his ideas seriously. Um, and he, he had this, he also developed this notion of quantum suicide, which was basically that h- there is, there, you know, uh, like, think about quantum Russian roulette, right? You know, uh, in six of the world, there's six worlds and only one of which I'm dead in, right? And, and five of which I live. So, you know, why not play the game? Because, uh, I'll survive in one of them. So, if, if you, uh, you know, imagine this, this sort of thought experiment, right? Like someone says, "I, you know, flip a coin. Heads, I give you a million dollars. Tails, you die." Then you should play, you should, if you believe the many worlds, you should play the game, right? Because in one of the worlds, you're a million dollars richer, and in the other one, you don't care. (laughs) Uh, so I think it sounds innocuous, but, you know, I think if you really took it to its logical conclusion, you, you'd have, you'd be forced to, to also believe some pretty ridiculous things. And that's, that's basically my problem with it.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:12:44

       I've heard you use the term not even wrong.

    10. CFChris Ferrie1:12:47

        (laughs) . Where did that come from?

    11. CWChris Williamson1:12:49

        I'd never-

    12. CFChris Ferrie1:12:49

        Yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:12:50

        I'd never heard that before.

    14. CFChris Ferrie1:12:52

        Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:12:52

        Uh, can you explain what that is for the people that are un-inducted?

    16. CFChris Ferrie1:12:57

        I recently was told that, it, it goes back to Pauli, which is a quantum physicist, uh, but there's a book by that title. And it, i- it's basically about the, well, the book was written about these ideas in theoretical physics that are just not testable, right? So they're ... you can't even say that they're wrong. So it's, it's just a, a mental masturbation essentially, that you, you come up with all these ideas and theories and they, you know, you can say, "Well, because they have mathematical symmetry, they're beautiful, therefore they must be true." Things like that. But, you know, a practical person would come along and say, "Uh, I can't tell you not to believe that because it's not even testable." And, you know, (laughs) the, the mental state that you've put, put yourself in is difficult to get out of, uh, so, yeah, you're ... it's not even wrong. I can't even say it's wrong. It's ... What is it? It's nothing, right?

    17. CWChris Williamson1:13:51

        Yeah. That's, um, that's maybe one of the most, like, not ... yeah, kind of patronizing, but, like, (laughs) like good insults or pushbacks that I can think of when someone starts spouting out a lot of horseshit.

14. 1:14:07 – 1:19:05

    Receiving Hate Mail from Spiritual People

    1. CWChris Williamson1:14:07

       You mentioned, uh, previously that you wrote a book in the past that was a love letter to physics and quantum physics.

    2. CFChris Ferrie1:14:14

       Mm.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:14:15

       And this is your hate mail. Did I see on your Twitter that you've been receiving genuine hate mail from some people that are a part of the spiritual community-

    4. CFChris Ferrie1:14:23

       (laughs)

    5. CWChris Williamson1:14:23

       ... that took a little bit of upset at what you've been pushing?

    6. CFChris Ferrie1:14:28

       Yeah, I slough it off, to be honest. It, it's, uh, the recommendation I give in the book is to just not engage. There's, there's no, really no, no good can come out of it, unless you're prepared to put in the time. And it takes a lot of time. So-

    7. CWChris Williamson1:14:42

       What have, what have people been accusing you of?

    8. CFChris Ferrie1:14:44

       Well, i- i- it's ... I mean, they, they, they accuse me of everything you can imagine, like, that, um, I've lost my way, I need to find Jesus, you know-

    9. CWChris Williamson1:14:54

       Quantum Jesus.

    10. CFChris Ferrie1:14:55

        ... all that sort of (laughs) yeah, like, uh, religious stuff to, um, to like, uh, they have their pet theory and, and they, you know, they'll accuse me that I don't really understand quantum physics because ... Yeah, and then they'll just repeat something that's, again, not even wrong. And it's not even worth ... You know, it's not even worth my time to engage because it would be like the conversation that you had with, with, with that woman, that they, they would just repeat themselves or go in circles, you know, like-

    11. CWChris Williamson1:15:25

        That was enjoyable. I like that, that-

    12. CFChris Ferrie1:15:27

        ... "Oh, you haven't read Pokemon 2?" (laughs)

    13. CWChris Williamson1:15:27

        That conversation, I actually took an awful lot away from it. But yeah, man, I, I, I think, uh, as somebody that is a world-class expert at receiving comments from the internet-

    14. CFChris Ferrie1:15:38

        (laughs)

    15. CWChris Williamson1:15:38

        ... uh, my, my theory is absolutely just engage where you want to, uh, and draw the line at that. Like, if you want to, uh, find out ... I wanted to find out from that girl, and it was a, a very enjoyable and, and respectful conversation, and I wanted to find out what do you mean when you say raise your frequency? What do you mean when you say, "I believe in quantum physics?" What do you mean? What do you mean?

    16. CFChris Ferrie1:15:59

        Mm.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:15:59

        That was perfectly enjoyable. It wasn't cantankerous at all or anything else.

    18. CFChris Ferrie1:16:03

        Mm.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:16:04

        But the line on the internet is just don't feed the trolls unless you want to, unless you've got some spare food lying around and some spare sanity that you want to throw at them. I have friends, Destiny, this guy, he's a str- he's a streamer, and he lives, he absolutely breeds for, uh, opposition an- and-

    20. CFChris Ferrie1:16:23

        Mm.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:16:23

        ... and for, um, antagonism and for debate and stuff like that. And that's his lifeblood. I f- it's like he's a, a, a plant and that's the sun.

    22. CFChris Ferrie1:16:33

        (laughs)

    23. CWChris Williamson1:16:35

        Um, whereas for me and perhaps for you too, there are ... that's not what, how I would enjoy spending my Saturday afternoon. So I would choose to do other things. And I, I ... every time that I see some of my smart friends on the internet getting into spats with people, um, and I understand in some regards if you use it to kind of make an example to signal boost a bad idea and show how easily it can be fixed, that's not necessarily a bad way to do things. But one-on-one in the DMs or in a, a, a message thread or, or, or a, a, a thread on Twitter or whatever trying to slowly chip away at some person's worldview, it's like, look, I've done, I've done the work. I've broadcasted my stuff in a video or in a book or, or, uh, uh, the presentation or whatever. And if you disagree with that, that's fine, but I don't know what you think my time or your time or anybody else's time is worth, but I can promise you that it is worth way, way more than trying to convince somebody that doesn't like me and doesn't agree with my worldview that they're in the wrong.

    24. CFChris Ferrie1:17:44

        Right. Yeah. Um, yeah, don't, don't feed the trolls. I think it's, it's good advice. It, it ha- will often have the opposite effect that, than you expect. But-

    25. CWChris Williamson1:17:55

        Catalyze, you catalyze the trolls rather than-

    26. CFChris Ferrie1:17:57

        Yeah.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:17:58

        ... yeah, sedating them.

    28. CFChris Ferrie1:17:59

        Yeah. Unless you're prepared to put in the time. Like, I, you know, if you have a, a family member that believes in some conspiracy and you, then maybe you want to slowly kind of remove that, remove those, those, those beliefs. But it, it probably takes ... You know, the problem is, like, it takes orders of magnitude more time to fix than it does to create. It take, it'd take me a second to create bullshit on the internet and, and then the damage is almost irreparable because even if all of the scientists in the world went to, to debunk that, well, I could, I now could just create 10 more pieces of bullshit in the time it took them to do that.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:18:42

        Yeah. Have you, have you heard of Brandolini's Law, which is what you're describing there?

    30. CFChris Ferrie1:18:46

        No. No. (laughs)
15. 1:19:05 – 1:19:53

    Where to Find Chris

    1. CWChris Williamson1:19:05

       Dr. Chris Ferrie, ladies and gentlemen. If people want to keep up to date with the stuff that you do and check out some of your work, where should you go?

    2. CFChris Ferrie1:19:12

       So the website is csferrie.com and so there you can contact me. You can follow me on, on all the social media platforms, though, uh, I tend not to use them very often. But, uh, yeah, a bit secret. But you can contact me via my website if you want or, uh, follow me on, uh ... apparently you can follow people even on Amazon now. So you can follow (laughs) me on Amazon.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:19:36

       Hell yeah. Chris, I appreciate you. Thank you for today. What's happening people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks and don't forget to subscribe. Peace.

Episode duration: 1:19:53