Modern WisdomA Blueprint for Mastering Every Conversation - Jefferson Fisher
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
125 min read · 24,953 words- 0:00 – 0:41
Why Communication Feels Harder Than Ever
- CWChris Williamson
Why do you think people are struggling with their communication?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Because it's something that wasn't taught to them. It was only modeled, you know, and a lot of people didn't have good models. They, they had people in their lives that saw conflict as something that they had to have in order to feel close to each other. They saw how yelling was the only way to possibly stop something, or maybe get physical was the only way to prove a point.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And so there's a lot of people who haven't had communication modeled well in their life, and there's a lot of books you can read and there's a lot of things you can do, but not until you've actually done it can you ever start actually improving in it.
- CWChris Williamson
It's like that Mike Tyson quote, "Everybody's got a plan till they get punched in the face."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. Until they get bopped in the mouth. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah,
- 0:41 – 1:45
Is Conflict Really Something to Fear?
- CWChris Williamson
yeah. Lots of people fear conflict, but in communication especially.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Why is it so scary? Why is conflict so hard to navigate?
- JFJefferson Fisher
It takes courage. Uh, people f- feel like yelling and being aggressive, that's, that's strength. It's not. Um, being somebody who can handle conflict calmly and know that you're gonna get through it and there's gonna be an end to it, that takes a lot of courage. I think a lot of people are afraid of that vulnerability. That's a word that men in particular find that that's something that is some kind of no-go zone when actually that's the one thing they probably most need. You know, some people, instead of just a shouting match, they really just need a hug. [laughs] And so it's, it's, it's this unknown for a lot of people and how, how do you, how do you not say the wrong thing? And so there's that, that fear, and fear often is masked in forms of anger, so it's a lot easier to get defensive and yell than it is to actually lean across and work through something hard.
- 1:45 – 2:56
Why Are We So Quick to Lose Control?
- CWChris Williamson
Why do you think people lose control so quickly in conversations?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Because it takes no effort. It, it takes, takes zero, uh, effort to yell and get defensive and raise your voice. That, there's no struggle in that. It takes a whole lot more strength to be able to take a breath, slow things down, say things more calmly. And so it's, it's just an easier path. That neural pathway is a lot easier. And it's, it's just something that's organic in our bodies. It's part of the fight or flight. Every time you hear a disagreement or something that's a different opinion that you don't like, uh, we naturally, our whole body goes, "No, I don't think I like that. That doesn't sound good to me. Like, that-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... conflicts with something I believe. That conflicts with something I grew up knowing because my dad believed this, my mom believed this." And all of a sudden, that's why facts and evidence typically don't matter when it comes to changing somebody's mind. It has a lot to do with how you've communicated in a way that, how you've made them feel about it.
- CWChris Williamson
I've always thought that "facts don't care about your feelings" line could not be more backward.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, feelings don't give a single shit about the facts.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, they don't.
- CWChris Williamson
Ever.
- JFJefferson Fisher
They don't care about the facts.
- 2:56 – 7:57
What Actually Triggers Us?
- CWChris Williamson
What is happening in your body when you get triggered?
- JFJefferson Fisher
It's the same thing of physical danger. Like, our bodies don't do well at deciphering between a social danger-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... meaning are they confronting me, offending me, coming into my space? Is my autonomy being questioned? Is my authority being questioned? From a physical danger. So it's the same thing. Your, your pupils dilate to take in more light, meaning it's kind of like that portrait mode on Apple to where your, everything kind of goes fuzzy in the background. Your, your, your fists clench, your jaw clenches. That's why a lot of the times you start yelling and people go, "Why are you yelling?" And you go, "I'm not yelling." It's because y- your breath is like-
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
... your breath has nowhere else to go, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
It's, it's because you've been holding, you've been holding your breath because you're ready. Like, your body doesn't know is there a bear behind the bush.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
It's like, it's like the same... If I were to text you, I said... If I, if I texted Chris and I said, "We need to talk, period," first thing he goes, "What'd I do? What's wrong?"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
"What happened?" It's, it's that, it's that anxiety. It's that, it's that fear.
- CWChris Williamson
Have you seen the some reels floating around of people saying, uh, "Amazing ways to connect with your partner," and it's all stuff like that.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
"We need to talk."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, "What did you do?"
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, all of these weird open loops. And when I think about it-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... I think a lot of it is the openness.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
It's the fact that there is the potential for things to go wrong, but as yet, no conclusion.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
And in that vacuum is where all of the speculation gets sucked.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And typically, especially if there's a little bit of activation or agitation with that-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... that is where everything just gets pulled in.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Well, it, it, because it, it expands. I mean, it can be just like a bomb. That's, that's what happens when you usually start with context first or a lot of unknown first, that, "We need to talk, period."
- 7:57 – 14:59
We Need to Learn How to Hold Space For Others
- CWChris Williamson
One of the other lines that I've heard a bit, there's two situations, uh, that over the last couple of years have been very formative on how I see communication.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, the first one was Theo Von with Sean Strickland. You see this clip?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-mm.
- CWChris Williamson
Sean and Theo. Sean Strickland, MMA fighter, UFC fighter. You know who he is?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh, is this where he goes, "I'm just gonna sit with you"?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
That was so good.
- CWChris Williamson
Bro, it is one of the most beautiful examples of space holding-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... that I've ever seen, and was something that I'd never seen done before.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
And then my friend Charlie from Charisma on Command did a breakdown of it and fully explained what was going on.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
And he goes through the body language of Sean. So Sean's gripping this water bottle. He's got some fucking bottle of Evian which he's getting ragged around while he's having this conversation. He's grasping with one hand. He's looking for control.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And he can't find it.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
He's looking for control. He's looking for control. And then Theo makes a joke that pulls him out and then puts him back in. Yeah, here we go.
- SPSpeaker
Dude, I remember, like, laying in bed. Like, I remember when I stopped believing in God, man. Like, fucking [laughs] like I had fucking, um... Yeah, it's crazy shit, dude. Crazy shit, man.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
It's okay, man. It's, a lot of that's sad. Dude, I used to be scared at night, like, uh, I used to stand up, like, I heard when I was a kid that, like, if you peed around your, like, animals could pee somewhere that other animals wouldn't come. You know what I'm talking about? You know what I'm talking about?
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Huh?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, man. I got you.
- SPSpeaker
Have you ever heard that? Yeah, I'm sorry, bud.
- SPSpeaker
So, ah, man. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
I'm sorry, buddy.
- SPSpeaker
It's all good, dude. [laughs]
- 14:59 – 17:34
The Best Ways to Regulate Any Conversation
- CWChris Williamson
What are some of the other lines that you love to use in a conversation, conversation's becoming dysregulated or-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... you know that this person needs reassurance, someone needs reassurance in a conversation that you're having? What are your favorite lines to show them that you're there with them?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm. Um, the, the one that I like to use, and it's gonna sound cheesy, but it, but it works, I promise, is, "If we're not okay, then nothing's okay." Like, uh, it's, "If you and I aren't okay..." Like, this is, I say this to my, to my wife. "If, if we're not okay, then nothing's okay." In other words, it's really easy to go, "We're fine. We're fine," and then just all of a sudden focus on the kids or finances or whatever it is, and it's easy to kind of switch over to getting busy with something else, and it gets swept under the rug, but you, you miss that chance. Then it becomes this little bitty paper cut, and then you'll have another little paper cut, and you have another little paper cut, and so eventually those become big ruptures over time. The one I also like to use, um, is, "Something else is coming up. I'm not sure yet." Like, if, if we're in a conversation and I can tell that there's more to it for me, like I'm, I'm, I am having a bigger emotional response than what's called for, I can invite her into that conversation. Let me put that differently. If, let's say we're having a level three conversation. In other words, nobody's mad at each other, but something happens, and all of a sudden I'm at a seven or eight and I'm just, something's really got me upset. It's much easier if I say, "I can tell something else is coming up for me. I'm not sure yet," rather than me trying to hold it in, s- avoid her-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... go distance and try and fix it myself-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... when it's actually me inviting her into, "This is what's happening to me in that moment," is the very conversation and connection that is going to make her closer to me, to be the person that I, I need in that moment, rather than thinking that I have to present her with somebody who's 100% whole and fixed and has it all together.
- CWChris Williamson
And you're a part of this.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You're a part of the team. We're working together.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right. Exactly. And that's, and, and that is the vulnerability side of it. You, you can't, you can't strengthen alone. Like, self-improvement is ... If, if, if you're just in it for ... When, if it doesn't help you connect with anybody else, then self-improvement's just self-worship. There's, there's nothing else to it.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Like, you, you have to ... It's, it's to improve you around others
- 17:34 – 25:22
Simple Tricks to Stay Calm in Difficult Conversations
- JFJefferson Fisher
as well.
- CWChris Williamson
So going back to the triggered in the body, conflict in a conversation-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... how can people interrupt that reaction in real time? Like, what are the best ways to stay composed-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... when a conversation gets animated?
- JFJefferson Fisher
When things are starting to get ratcheted up, you, you have to find a way to slow it down. You have to find a way to elongate the process. Like, you don't get extra points for having a very quick comeback. It looks good on social media, right? It doesn't work in real life. They, they just don't. You have to be able to slow it down. So what does that look like? It means you have to use your breath a lot. What I teach is have your breath be the first word that you say. I teach this w- every one of my clients before they go into deposition or cross-examination. It's, it's your breath. That's the only way you're really going to slow things-... down is if I choose my timing in this conversation and not let somebody else press their timing on me. Like, uh, in the home, for example, if I, if we wait to have a conversation when the kids are in the path and we're trying to do dinner and everything is stressful and we've already had a tired day, my battery's already at 20%
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
... chances are n- not gonna go great in conversation. It's not gonna be that awesome. But if we're able to slow things down and I'm able to pause and use my words to let them know a better time would be better, m- that's gonna do a lot better for me. So what does that do in the process? How do, how do you do that? Aside from using your breath in conversation, you need to say it out loud. "I can tell I'm getting defensive. I'm gonna be better for this conversation here in a l- in a little bit. I can tell I'm not saying things as well as I want to, and I don't want to approach the conversation this way." The, it, it, it's, if you were, rather than trying to get defensive, if you were able to say, "Listen, I can tell this moment is a big one, and you're saying a lot of things that are really important. I want to make sure that I take the time that gives my part what this deserves."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And that, and that's gonna take, that's gonna take some time.
- CWChris Williamson
We're a team.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
Even in disagreement, we're a team. Even in conflict, we're a team.
- JFJefferson Fisher
All the more. Yeah, especially when, when it's conflict because it's, it's, um, when you find that you're only ... Nobody wants to be in it alone. Like, nobody ... We, we know what it's like to be in a relationship with somebody where you're the only one in the boat paddling. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
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- JFJefferson Fisher
Yes, breath.
- CWChris Williamson
Space if-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Timeouts
- CWChris Williamson
... battery is low-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... and I need a little bit more room. What else?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Get quick to timeouts. The, uh, timeouts are something that you can't really be, uh, overused in some sense. Uh, if you find that things are really, really frustrating, they say, I think the data was like, you need to have 20 minutes to kind of regulate yourself again. Um, in other words, don't try and say, "You know what? Let's just, I need a moment," and then it's not two minutes later and they're like, "You know what?" And then you're right back at it again. That's not near enough. [laughs] That's not near enough time. You need, you need more time with that. So we got pausing, using your breath, giving time to elongate it. So two, timeouts, and then three, set aside actual time for the conversations that matter. Like, you- you'll, we'll set aside time for me time, you know, to do what I want, go work out, go do whatever, but we won't set aside time for some of the most important conversations we're ever gonna have. And so if I were to say even to you, I'd say, "Hey, I'd like to talk to you about something really important to me, and I'll make sure that we have time for it. When's, when's a good window sometime next week?"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Like, I'm ... It, you see how much better that is than me going, "Hey, do you have five minutes for, for me to tell you about something?" Like, you know what I mean? And that's, that's what happens. It's, and it just, it comes right on you to where nobody is, nobody's prepared.
- CWChris Williamson
There's a book that my housemate was reading, How to Stop Worrying and Start Living.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
And, uh, Stephen Covey, um, and one of his lesser knowns. In How to Stop Worrying and Start Living, he says one of the most important things that he used as a tactic was to have worry time.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. [laughs] Schedule it.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- 25:22 – 31:39
What Is Your Anger Really Hiding?
- CWChris Williamson
What does anger usually hide?
- JFJefferson Fisher
There's a quote that I heard once. It's something along the lines of, "I sat beside my good friend Anger, and he turned to me and said, 'My name isn't Anger, it's Grief.'" And I think a lot of the times, anger is hiding fear, it's hiding sadness, it's hiding grief, all these things that, uh, are really the true bottom of that emotion. They say in therapy where it's hysterical, it's historical, meaning that it comes from something else. And often our emotions, which are extremely complex, we use the most basic language a caveman would use. I'm sad, I'm mad, I'm angry, I'm tired. When there's a whole emotional vocabulary to use that's out there of if you sift and you sift and you sift and you sift and you ask where is this, where is this coming from, y- you find that what comes across as anger and yelling and injustice usually comes from a deep place of sadness.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Yeah, when I look at, uh, an emotions wheel-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... you see the sort of the more surface level ones, and then you split them out into, well, there's different components of anxiety or sadness-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... or even grief.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, those aren't the bottom. There's things that are more precise-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yes
- CWChris Williamson
... than that. And, um, it makes me think about how much diet advice for people that want to lose weight, they think that they need a huge number of different recipes maybe, but you probably have 70% of your calories coming from the same six meals. Like, you're eating the same stuff over and over.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So what you need to do is just take the small bucket of things that you usually do already-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right
- CWChris Williamson
... and just get a little bit better at that. And I think with emotions, certain people's predisposition, conditioning, life situation, current environment, et cetera, it channels them into grooves-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... of emotions that they typically default to.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Some people get mad, some people get sad, some people get wistful, some people feel grief.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Some people get depressed or anxious or whatever. But if you look a little bit deeper, and if you can try and break them apart, if you can spend a little bit of time with them and go-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... "It's actually not that. It's not those five meals. If I look a little bit more closely-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... it's these."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
And, uh, yeah, anger is really effective at what it used to do right before we had law enforcement. Before we had law enforcement and you crossed a line with me, I needed a sufficiently animated response to tell you, "You crossed a line. You're not gonna do that again, and I'm gonna show you how formidable I am by being loud and big and scary. And it's also gonna warn everybody else in the tribe that's watching that they can't do it to me, too."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"Because if they do that, this will happen, and they don't want this to happen."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- 31:39 – 33:24
Are You Making This Mistake During Conflict?
- CWChris Williamson
What are the biggest mistakes that people make when they're on the receiving end of aggression?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm. That the other person doesn't want to be understood, where there, that's all there is to this person. If you're on the receiving end of aggression, um, one, I think that's, you need to lay some boundaries to make sure that you're not. Like, assertiveness is good. Aggressiveness says, "I don't care about you," and that's not, that's not okay. Um, but I think that if you find that you're on the other side of aggression, you're dealing with several different levels of how you wanna lay a boundary of how I wanna be spoken to. So we could talk about how do you respond to something like that. If it's somebody who means something to you, then usually that's very telling. Like, we talked about a three or a conversation. If somebody comes in at a seven, well, that's very telling. That means they're having a conversation in their head that you weren't invited to.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
You know? And so it's rather than coming at it with, "They have to agree with me," it's this mindset of have something to learn, not something to prove. And if I can think at the outset of, "I wonder that, where that's coming from. I wonder why they're responding that way. I wonder what's happening. I wonder what, what caused that response," then you're gonna be in a whole lot better position to keep yourself from getting emotionally wrapped up and responding in kind-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... with aggression. Aggression with matching aggression doesn't really go anywhere. It just, any time that somebody comes at you with aggressiveness and you respond, all you've done is just told them that you're exactly what they said that you were. You know, you've, you've just proved their point, and now they're just gonna wanna ratchet it up.
- 33:24 – 36:56
Why Setting Boundaries Feels So Difficult
- CWChris Williamson
How do you think about setting boundaries well?
- JFJefferson Fisher
You have to focus on the consequences and be okay with it. I think that's one of the hardest parts of boundaries. People are okay with saying, "I, I'm not good with this anymore," but their bark is, doesn't really have any bite to it. They're not willing to accept the consequences. For me, in simple boundaries in conversation, and I know boundaries get talked about a lot, it's just simply saying, one, what you're not going to do. Two, if they continue to do this, and three, what you're willing to walk away from. So for example, let's say you're saying something that's offensive to me. I'm gonna say, "I don't engage in conversation with people that are gonna disrespect me. Respect me. If you continue to disrespect me, then Chris, this is the end of the conversation." May- I have to be willing to get up and walk away. Rather than saying, "You can't yell at me," if I were to turn it to, "I don't respond to that volume," that's, that's a whole different power move-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... that says, "I'm the one that's gonna be much more in control and confident in this conversation." The more controlled and confident I feel, the less in control you're going to feel.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. Mm. I suppose the difficulty when you're the person who is at a three and somebody else is at a seven is that the person at a seven doesn't usually want to listen to somebody that's at a three.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
They need time to come back down.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
And if you want to fix, if you're in the mindset of fixing, the only way that they're going to be able to hear you, even if it makes it worse, i- is for you to go to a seven, which puts both of you at an eight.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, but yeah, I, um... The time away, but the time away without feeling like you're abandoning the conversation, which is, I suppose, where the clear communication comes in.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
Why that's so important.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. There's a difference between just saying, "I'm out of here," slamming the door and leaving it, versus saying, "I'm not leaving this conversation. I am going to make sure that we take some time because I can see you need some space. I'm good with that. You good with talking about this later this afternoon?" Usually they'll nod their head yeah. Or sometimes I can tell you when I feel like my wife and I are on the same team is if I'll ask something and she'll go, "I'm fine," and I know she's not. And I might ask, "You good with talking to me about it later?" She'll go, "Yeah."
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
You know what I mean? But that, like, you have to be able to give that.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
You know, to say, "Hey, I'm not, I don't wanna leave this conversation. I'm not, I'm not... This matters to me. If it matters to you, it matters to me."
- CWChris Williamson
Chris Voss has a slammer for getting people who seem like they have something on their mind to speak up when they don't want to.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And it's just, "Seems like there's something on your mind."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. He's the best. I love Chris. It's, it's the seems like, sounds like. "Seems like you have a reason for saying that." But it's also Chris Voss's voice. Like-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, [laughs] of course
- JFJefferson Fisher
... I mean, you hear his voice, and he could be like, "You know what? I think you should give me that couch," and I'd be like-
- CWChris Williamson
He could tell me to suck his dick, and I'd probably-
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs] Um, yeah, probably. He's, he's that good.
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs] Look-
- JFJefferson Fisher
His, his voice is that good
- CWChris Williamson
... he's a handsome man.
- JFJefferson Fisher
He's, he's-
- 36:56 – 39:55
How Do You Handle Passive Aggression?
- JFJefferson Fisher
You can use that same tactic.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, tell me how to deal with passive-aggressive people.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So if somebody's being passive-aggressive, it's usually something that was taught in childhood, meaning they, they've learned that their needs weren't gonna be met right in that moment, so they would rather kind of expect you to solve it for them. In other words, they want you to, um... They don't wanna be direct. They just expect you to find the answer. So it's the people that say things like, "You know, it should be nice if I was invited to something like that." Like they, they're, they're not gonna voice it, so they would rather kind of... They're not gonna use the front door. They're always gonna use the backside exit. And instead of needing that, you can say, "Sounds like you have a reason for saying that. Sounds like there's more to that." Usually they have an answer for that. Um, or if you were to say, if they were being passive, you can say, "I-- What's coming up for you?"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
That's one I like to use for a lot of different things is, "What's coming up?" So it has a way of disarming people in a non-defensive posture, rather than saying, "What's wrong with you?"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I'm gonna say, "What's coming up for you?" Meaning that I'm signaling that there's something else going on in here that I'm trying to help you bring to light. But that sounds like seems like. "Sounds like you have a reason for saying that. Seems like there's something else that you're not saying"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Has a way of getting the passive-aggressive people. But I mean, if it's entrenched in them, they're, all they're gonna do is really double down. "I mean, I mean, it would just be nice, you know, if somebody were to invite me to something, but no, that's fine."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I mean, you can't, you can't help the victim mentality. That's not gonna switch by just a few sentences.
- CWChris Williamson
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- 39:55 – 42:20
Does Childhood Shape Passive Aggressive Behaviour?
- CWChris Williamson
Dig in more to the genesis of the passive-aggressive person in childhood. I thought that was interesting.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. Well, you think of like we just saw on that Theo clip and how we, we respond to everything. How we were modeled in communication and how we were treated in children, what they call, you know, your childhood trauma, shows up all the time. And so it comes into these, these filters that you apply. So maybe you're in an argument with your wife or your girlfriend or whatever, and you felt controlled in that moment because she made some snide comment about what you can or can't do and what she didn't want you to do, and you didn't like that because you get to-- you're a guy who gets to decide your own thing. And all of a sudden you're voicing and yelling at what could have been a level three. You're now at a level 11. But really deep down, what your body felt was you were back to that eight-year-old boy whose mom wouldn't let him go outside without first doing X, Y, and Z, or a, a dad that made him do... That didn't make him feel safe. And so you're, you're responding based on old scripts. And so we all have these old scripts, like old tape cassettes that we play anytime we feel these big feelings of, "I'm being controlled, I'm being pressured, I'm being caged. I'm not my own person. I don't feel safe. I'm never gonna feel safe. I'm too much." These old scripts that we've been playing in our head, and so we, we show those all the time in the language that we're using. So it's not that you're seeing the person and talking to them. It's usually, it's a reflection of something that happened in your past that's showing back up.
- CWChris Williamson
And the passive-aggressive person had needs that weren't reliably met.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. It, it could have been... I mean, the... Well, here's the, the takeaway though, is that at one point in time, that passive aggressiveness had a utility to it. There was a time when maybe they didn't, they weren't safe to say what they actually needed. So-
- CWChris Williamson
Their aggression wasn't safe.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Their aggression wasn't safe. Voicing anything wasn't safe.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And so it was, they found that their life went better when they didn't have to voice it. Yeah, they, they held it in, and so they found some way to, to cope and expect somebody else to read their mind rather than something else. But there's a lot of different things that, you know, that show up from childhood that we're just big kids.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. Mm.
- 42:20 – 52:28
The Best Way to Deliver Bad News
- CWChris Williamson
What about when it comes to delivering bad news to people?
- JFJefferson Fisher
It's a required life lesson. Like I, there's, it's impossible to not get around that, and people get really uncomfortable with it. And usually it's because they're feeling other people's feelings for them. Like the, "I, I don't wanna say that 'cause that's not nice." Like they feel like they have to be nice.The, the real takeaway is being, choosing to be kind. Right? Nice says it's focus all on the, the surface, the pleasantries. I can't say that. I can't tell you the truth, Chris. That's, that's not nice. All right? Kindness says, "I care enough about you to tell you the truth. Because I care about you, I need to give you this, this really hard news of what it's going to... This is what it's going to be." And you can use labels, simple as what we just talked about a minute ago. "This is gonna be some hard news. You're not gonna like what I have to say."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Give them a moment, and then deliver the news. But what you can't do is twist the knife where you start to blame them first. Right? If you need to give bad news... Like imagine if I was just gonna break up with you right now. The worst thing e- to do about it is all of a sudden go, "You know, I just think you're so great, uh, uh, Chris, and y- I've really enjoyed a lot of time" We start talking in past tense as if, like, what are you-
- CWChris Williamson
I was enjoying that so far.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, [laughs] yeah. Let's just keep, let's keep going.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Um, to where you know you're not, you're not being straight up and being honest.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And often that's sometimes the kindest thing you can do is be as direct as you can be when it comes to sad news.
- CWChris Williamson
Let's say that you need to break up with a partner and you're feeling super nervous about it. How would you guide that person through the conversation?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm. One, I would use a label. That means rather than... And this is assuming you set a- aside time and you're not trying to do it through a text message or, you know, while you're-
- CWChris Williamson
Apparently that's gauche now. That's looked down on to do it over text.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. Yeah, that's probably not a good idea. Or you're doing it in the middle of, you know, a movie or something. Let's assume you've already, uh, put good time around this to have a good conversation. It's to say, "I need to have a hard conversation with you." And then you need the first words out of your mouth need to be, "This isn't a relationship that I, I can see myself continuing in." Like, you see how all of a sudden I'm getting right to the point rather than saying, "I need to have something hard. You've just been great and, you know, it's not you, it's me, and, you know, we've just been, we've had all these memories." Yeah, yeah, exactly. Instead of all that, get right to the point, and it's, it's much easier. People can take bad news. It's gonna have a harder impact, but the rest of it is gonna be a whole lot better for you. Rather than trying to sound nice and be like, "I don't wanna upset... It's all me. It's not, it's not you at all." Even though that's softer in the moment, that long-term impact is gonna be a whole lot worse because, because you weren't really being honest-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... with me. And so e- even if you would need to fire somebody, bring them in. "This news is probably gonna shock you. I need to let you go." And that's what you get to say, "I've enjoyed having you as a, a person. Uh, you've done great with the company." Or maybe it's in a relationship.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
"I, I, I need to be out of this relationship. I need to move on. This is, relationship isn't working for me."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Whatever it is. And that's where you get to say, "I've, th- I've learned a lot from you. I've learned..." And whatever it is, the nice stuff, but don't start with the pleasantries and then end with the hard.
- CWChris Williamson
I think Chris has another one which is if you're saying that you can't go to an event, say, "I can't go" or, "I can't make it"-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... first.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Don't say, "Things have got so hard recently, and this chaos came up, and I've got this thing and the ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba," and then that at the end.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's like just don't bury the fucking lead, dude.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Put it up top.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I very much, uh, align with that. So what I, I teach is you start with the no first. Most people start with the, the thanks first. They start with the gratitude and they go, "Thank you so much. I'd love to, but I can't." Um, and but, the word but has a way of deleting everything that came before it.
- 52:28 – 56:45
Are You Carrying Other People’s Emotions?
- CWChris Williamson
One of the things that you mentioned there was somebody else's emotions not permeating you-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... not, not being absorbed by you. You're holding yourself here.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Many people that are empathetic, people that are highly sensitive-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... people who seem to absorb the emotions of those around them find that really difficult-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right
- CWChris Williamson
... to keep the you are there and I am here. What's your advice for people to keep that emotional sovereignty when somebody else is getting sad-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... with them?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Well, I, I'd, I'd want to first say that having empathy and being able to feel other people's emotions, like that, that is a superpower. I, I don't think that's something to decrease. What I don't want you to do is to feel so much of their feelings that you don't allow them, the other person to f-feel their own. In other words, I'm afraid of disappointing you because you're gonna be so upset, and for you to be upset at me makes me upset, and that's gonna get into my system, and I can't possibly share them, do that because they're gonna be disappointed in me, and I can't take them being disappointed at me. That's more of the, the fear there. But in-- or somebody who goes, "I feel a lot of feelings, and you can feel yours," it's don't pick up what any-- nobody asks you to carry. Like, don't, don't start to feel the weight and burden of somebody else's feelings. Like, for example, you might have, I don't know, this could be a silly example. You have your in-laws coming into town. You don't really want them to stay at your house, right? How do you, how do you do that? And you start to feel like, "Oh, well, I'm gonna have to fee-- I, I need to. They're gonna be so upset, and we're, they're go- it's gonna cause such a, a thing." Well, if you also understand that you have agency, and th-they get to choose what to do with those feelings, you're gonna come at it at a much healthier place. And I think a lot of times we don't give the other person the choice of what to do with their feelings. We have to-- We wanna fix it all. We wanna tell them what to do with it.
- CWChris Williamson
So how would you navigate that situation? What would you say?
- JFJefferson Fisher
If I were going to... If somebody like my in-laws or something were coming in, um, I would simply say, "I need," beginning with the s- the phrase I need.I need to make sure that here, uh, in this, whatever, this holiday season or whatever, that we're prioritizing a lot of slowing things down and trying to keep things quieter in the house, and I'm gonna need y'all to find... Maybe I found another hotel that you can go enjoy that instead of having to stay in our house.
- CWChris Williamson
Stay in our house.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs] Yeah, exactly. Um, a lot of the times you, we fall into the habit of people pleasing, you know? Which I, I think is a f- people pleasing to me is not a bad thing. It's just you need to make sure that you're one of them. You know? You need to be able to also do what's acting in alignment with what you're wanting.
- CWChris Williamson
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- 56:45 – 1:06:02
The Shame of Small Fears
- CWChris Williamson
I had this essay that you've kicked the trip wires of about 10 times so far today, so I'm gonna read you a little bit of this.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay, I'm ready.
- CWChris Williamson
I think it, thought might be interesting. I called it The Shame of Small Fears.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh, okay.
- CWChris Williamson
"Imagine explaining modern fear to a caveman. 'You see, Gruk, people today get terrified when they have to send a message.' Gruk blinks. 'Message carved on stone?' 'No. It's sentence on a glowing triangle.' 'Enemy tribe see message?' 'No.' 'Saber-toothed tiger smell message?' 'No.' 'Then why fear?' 'Well, because the other person might think badly of me.' Gruk cries laughing. And yet, that's the whole point. We inherited a nervous system calibrated for lions, and we're using it to navigate awkward conversations and underwhelming careers. Evolution never updated the software. It just repurposed it. Your ancestors needed courage to keep their bodies alive. You need courage to keep your identity intact. It's almost comic when you zoom out. The same species that once stared down hungry predators now breaks into a sweat trying to say, 'Something needs to change.' But it's not because we've become pathetic. It's because the monster's changed shape. Old dangers could kill your body. The new ones threaten your belonging. Your whole biology gears up for exile from the village that now only exists as a group chat. Your body still thinks you'll die alone in the wilderness if you tell the truth. It's the residue of a limbic system designed for a world that no longer exists." That seems to be... It's not about the fear, it's about the shame in your fear a lot of the time, I think.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
People realize, I, I, I am the progeny of people who survived ice ages.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And I'm getting worried about having to tell this person that they crossed a line with me or having to enforce a boundary.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"Hey, I, I've had a long year. I'm stressed, and I love your mother, but she's a lot, okay?"
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs] Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"And, and, and so her house is really great this time of year."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
"And I got a discount, okay? Let go of it." Uh, but the-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It really is the case. It's like, um, the sensitivity on a system. It's the same reason that we have gyms.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
We have gyms because we have removed the need to pick up heavy objects from our normal daily life.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
So we have to artificially create this thing, and if it wasn't for the gym, everybody would be flabby messes, right?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And purposeful physical training-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... because the whole, uh, stress on our system, the whole homeostasis has got turned down.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's kind of the same here too. Uh, the... Your, uh, limbic system will attenuate itself to the maximum amount of discomfort that you have, which means now that a hard conversation might be the most difficult thing that you do that year.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, that one conversation, firing that one member of staff might be the m- So yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- 1:06:02 – 1:09:15
How to Avoid Frustration When You’re Being Misunderstood
- CWChris Williamson
Unreal. What about if you're having a conversation with someone and it feels like they're not understanding you? It's getting frustrating.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. If you go, "Okay, I'm trying to... I'm not saying this the right way," and you feel like there's the butting up against that in that time, then I would take it piece by piece. So I would, one, are you giving them the takeaway? Are you giving the headline at the beginning, or are you putting it down in the footnotes? So one is how are you approaching the conversation? How are you framing the conversation? Because if you've buried the lead, like you said, that is typically going to lead into a lot of miscommunication. Next, I would question... The, the biggest, like, myth in communication is what is sent is what is received. I, all the time, I can in my own relationshipShe could say, "What? No, you said this." I go, "I didn't say that." She said, "Yes, you did." I went, "No, that's not what I said." She goes, "I wish I had a video camera in here so I could have seen exactly how you said that." So you could see, and, and instead of this mindset of, "That's not what I said," and trying to push that miscommunication, instead ask, "What did you hear? What did you hear?" And if I can ask the question, "What did you hear?" And them to actually explain, "What I'm hearing is X, Y, and Z"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... you get to stop. Okay, that right there, that's not at all my intent. I think that's where we're going wrong. So it's, it's the ability to, one, slow down to find the actual breaking point.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And that, that usually requires a, "Okay, here is what I'm trying to convey. I'm not asking you to fix anything. I just need you to hear that this means something to me." And sometimes the other person's like, "Oh, okay, so you want me to do this, or you want me to do this, or you want me to fix this?" I'm like, "No, no, no, no. I, I don't... Uh, no, I need... Let's go back again. Okay. What are you hearing?" And they go, "Well, I hear that you need me to go. I guess I'll never be able to do this again." No, no, no. That's not at all... Right? Usually, when people are going to extremes or absolutes, to always and nevers, is a very clear sign that they're not engaged in the conversation. Instead, they're playing an old script that is, "Well, then you just, you just want me to do everything you want me to do." Um, and so if you're able to actually break it down and go piece by piece, "Okay, what did you hear at this oma- this here? This is, this is the miscommunication. Okay, when I bring this up, what's coming up for you? 'Cause I can tell something else is happening."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Like, then you get into a little bit of the emotion of it, of where, where are you feeling defensive? So when I can voice that, this other person's voicing, I can tell I'm getting defensive. I can tell I'm not ready for this conversation. I can tell I'm getting worked up.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Like, that's really helpful information. I think I saw some study on if it was, like, if somebody's heart beats over 100 BPM, like, it's almost impossible to, like, bring somebody back down very quickly. Like, it's not a good time to have a, a very-
- CWChris Williamson
No way
- JFJefferson Fisher
... Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Over 100 BPM, your front brain is basically turned off.
- JFJefferson Fisher
It's gone. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Wow.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And, and you're, you're having to make sure that the other person's, they're gonna quickly be dysregulated in that moment.
- 1:09:15 – 1:13:50
How Much Does a Divorce Raise Your Heart Rate?
- CWChris Williamson
Have you seen... Jared, can you pull that up? Uh, just search, uh, Reddit divorce heart rate on Google. And, um, [chuckles] this guy, I think he was wearing, like, a Garmin or something.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
And he tracked his heart rate through the conversation-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yes
- CWChris Williamson
... that he had with his wife. And the reason I say it is, you're going 100 BPM. 100 BPM is heart rate in five-second intervals when wife asks for a divorce [laughs] via... And I love that he's put via Fitbit Charge 2.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
It's like it's a sponsored post.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs] That's awesome.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, yeah, resting BPM.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right around here.
- CWChris Williamson
So, dude, he's got, he's got a nice resting BPM. He's down at 60, and he's awake.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
He's a fit guy.
- JFJefferson Fisher
He's doing great. He's doing great.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Well, he's got a Fitbit Charge 2 on, so he's obviously been tracking it for a while.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Can we talk? Can we talk keeps him quite, uh... He's regulating.
- JFJefferson Fisher
He's doing good.
- CWChris Williamson
So what's... So hang on. How... What are the interval? That's five minutes. Five-minute intervals at the bottom.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Is this 1:15 in the fucking morning? I think that's 1:15 in the morning.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Unless it's on... It's 24 hour. Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It should be on military time.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, you're right.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, and, uh, okay, can we talk? He manages to hold on to it. This-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Timing has a lot to do with this. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, there's a spike just before I don't think this is healthy for either of us. So she's can we talk, and a full, what's that? Six minutes later she's still not given the lead.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yep.
- 1:13:50 – 1:26:32
Is Silence the Best Response to Insult?
- CWChris Williamson
How should people respond to an insult?
- JFJefferson Fisher
With a lot of silence. You say something ugly to me, I'm gonna give it about five to seven seconds of nothing. Meaning I'm gonna allow your words, as if I see them, just to fall to the, this table here and give you a moment of like, "You good with that? Like, you still, you still proud of that right there? You can take it back if you like, but I'm not taking it." And it's that. It's that, that mindset of, "I'm not taking it. I don't have to pick it up. That's not mine." Because we get so used to catching. Just because somebody threw, we feel like we automatically have to catch. It's like, it's not, it's not tennis. It's not volleyball. You don't have to hit it back over a net. You can just let it be there. So five to seven seconds of nothing in that silence. Two, what I like to do is usually ask them to repeat it.
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. Yeah, that's ... I, I usually will say, "I need you to, I need you to say that again." I've yet to have anybody who could do it [laughs] because it's like they, they, they don't want to show they're ugly. They don't want that highlighted. They don't ... They know what they just said. And now what they were expecting was that hit of dopamine of me giving it right back to them and feeling that sense of control.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I've now put a big spotlight on their behavior, and then it's just, it's not fun at that point. They're like, "Ah, I gotta get out of here." Like, that's was, that, that wasn't the hit that I was expecting. And when I say, "I need you to repeat that," or, "I need you to say that again," they're gonna have to remember their words and regurgitate them.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And that usually ... It's ... People don't like to extend past this feeling of being reasonable. Now, I know people will go, "Oh, I know lots of people are unreasonable." Listen, I have deposed probably thousands of people. I've seen lots of liars and manipulators. They never want to come across as unreasonable.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
People who are, like, manipulating you, they're not afraid of, of anger. They're afraid of calm. And whenever I can show you that I'm not rising and going, "How dare you?" Like, getting this-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... who, who do you think you are kind of-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... bow-up, um, it's almost more scary to them if you, "I need you to say that again." Now, most of the time what they do is they try and like ... Well, I mean, what I, I mean, well, y- I mean, and they try to, like, justify-
- CWChris Williamson
Equivocate
- JFJefferson Fisher
... exactly, uh, and try and adjust in some way. Or I guess they could double down. If they do double down and repeat it, then you get to say, "I thought so. Thanks." Like, just let it go because at that point you're still just leaving them. They're, they're gonna remember what they said, and you're not gonna be the one to remember it at all. So it's that. Another that I like to ask is, it's this, "Did you mean? Did you mean for that to sound as insulting as it did? Did you mean for that to embarrass me in some way? Did you mean for that to offend me or hurt me or belittle me?" Or, "Did you, did you want me to feel less when you said that?" Whenever you talk about intents, the did you mean, did you intend to, did you say that in order to, it questions the very root of their heart in that moment of like, why did they really say that? And they said that to hurt you.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
To, to cause that pain. And at the same time, maybe you just took it the wrong way, like in text message usually. We have a way of reading everything negative in a text message. We never read things positive, right? You ... I, I, I could text you, "We need to talk," and y- nobody gets that and goes, "Yeah."
- CWChris Williamson
Like, sick.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yes, let's go. Let's ... Chris wants to talk. Let's, let's get after it. Let's go. Uh, we always read the negative. And so did you mean is also a great way of double-checking. Did you mean for that to sound ... Like, um, my wife and I, if I sometimes reply really quickly, she'll say, "Did you mean for that to sound short?" No, no, no, I didn't mean to. I was just in the middle of pickup, or I was at a-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... grocery line or whatever.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep, yep, yep.
- JFJefferson Fisher
It's you're allowing that, that benefit of the doubt for a second.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. Mm. In both of those situations, uh, where it's not ambiguous about whether or not that was a-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... a mean message or not-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right
- 1:26:32 – 1:28:51
Why Do We Hide Behind “Just Joking”?
- CWChris Williamson
On the insult thing, British people have a trend of pushing and pushing and then saying, "Only joking, mate."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"It's only a joke." [chuckles] How do you deal with someone who pushes you and then retreats to, "I was just joking"?
- JFJefferson Fisher
It depends how well you know them. I think if, if for some of these responses, like if somebody says, "I was just joking," I usually like to say, "Then I need you to be funnier." [chuckles] That's what I usually say. Or I'll say, "Then I need you to find new material." You know? You- Then we need to re... Let's workshop that one then a little bit.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
But if it's something that you feel like they are-- Maybe you don't know them that well and they say, "Hey, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm just, I'm just joking," I don't let it, I don't like it to slide, meaning you just go, "Oh, okay. That's, that's fine," and then-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... you know they're just gonna walk over you. Again, like that's... We're not gonna walk on eggshells with that. But if you were to say, "I know that wasn't a joke," or, "That's not a... Didn't sound like a joke. Sounds like an issue," like that's a, a lot... So much of this is being the bigger person in conversation, and that often means to be the most courageous in the conversation, and that's a hard thing to do.
- CWChris Williamson
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- 1:28:51 – 1:31:15
Do Certain Phrases Make You Sound Weak?
- CWChris Williamson
What do you think are the most common phrases that make people sound weak?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Usually beginning with like, "I'm sorry, but..." That's, one, that I'm sorry, but you don't really mean it. "I, I don't mean any disrespect, but..." "I don't want this to sound rude, but..." Yeah, you do, or else you wouldn't be saying it like that. You just, uh, delete those and say what you need to say.
- CWChris Williamson
From after the but.
- JFJefferson Fisher
From after the but, exactly. That's, it's, it's just hedging. Another is where people, uh, they cut out the legs underneath their sentences before they even get them out. Like, "Yeah, I hate to bother you, but, um... I mean, I could be wrong about this, but I mean, you probably know better than me, but..." It's all these like hedging-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... that makes them sound really, really weak in the conversation. That is something that's, it's, it's, it's unnecessary. A lot of the, "I thinks," "I believes." I think in casual conversation it's not a problem, but if you're wanting to sound assertive, the I thinks and I believes, you can just replace them with I'm confident that.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Instead of like, "I believe I'd be a good asset to this company," it's, "I'm confident I'd be a good asset to this company." And they'd write down, "Man, he sounds so confident."
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
You know? It's, it's just, it's pure language choice.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
You know?
- CWChris Williamson
I learned from my academic friends, I hedge sometimes because I'm wholly unqualified to talk about pretty much everything I talk about.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
And it's important to caveat, especially if you're like-
- JFJefferson Fisher
For sure
- CWChris Williamson
... I, I mean, I'm in bro science territory here.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. [chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
And I learned-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... I learned, uh, that academics have an equivalent for that, and they say, "It's directionally correct that..." Directionally correct, dude, is the fucking... Hey, 51-49 or 99-1, I'm directionally correct either way. If I know that this is at least in this side of the fence, I got it. I love, I... It's directionally correct that men are stronger than women on average.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Their upper body strength. On average as well is wonderful. You hide so many things in-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Say anything on-
- CWChris Williamson
On average
- JFJefferson Fisher
... on average.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Well, I mean, o- on average, you just literally need to be better than 50% right.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. [chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, so-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- 1:31:15 – 1:36:09
Where Does Self-Assurance Come From?
- CWChris Williamson
You mentioned, um, assertiveness.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Where does self-assurance come from, in your opinion?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Hmm.It's tied a lot to confidence. So I, I teach that confidence is as assertive does, meaning if you wanna feel more confident, you need to say more assertive things. And most often we get taught and seen that the most confident people are the loudest, the, I don't know, the bro-est of any of it, when it's actually the person who's the most controlled, the one who's the calmest.
- CWChris Williamson
Careful derogating the bros.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Not at all. [chuckles] Not at all. Would never. If like being able to say who's gonna be the most emotionally reactive-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... when things hit the fan, 'cause they will hit the fan.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Um, and making sure that h-how do you know if you're-- who's the captain of the ship? It's who has the highest threshold for conflict. You know, that, that's, that's gonna be one of the biggest markers right there. Like, confident people don't need to say it to know that, for you to know it. Like I, I don't have to say it to make sure that I know it or you know it.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I, um, I think my grandfather told me once of like, "Little dogs yip at everything, but big dogs only have to bark once." Like, it's, it's that kind of mentality of knowing that I don't, I don't have to have a comment for every little thing.
- CWChris Williamson
The most fucking Texan quote of all time, "Little dogs and big dogs."
- JFJefferson Fisher
That's right. [laughs] Little dogs yip, big dogs bark. Yeah, yeah. [laughs] Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, have you heard the term vagal authority?
- JFJefferson Fisher
No, but it sounds like something I would learn and-
- CWChris Williamson
It sounds like something that you would love.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
So Joe Hudson, who Charlie introduced me to, has got this idea of vagal authority.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
And what he means is in a room or in your interaction, whose nervous system is dictating how everybody else moves?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
Everybody's in different levels. Some people are at eights, some people are at threes. Where does the room go? Especially in a one-on-one, who's got the vagal authority-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... between the two of us?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Interesting. So who's, who's the, um-
- CWChris Williamson
The thermostat
- JFJefferson Fisher
... who's dictating? Yeah. Who's dic- who's dictating this?
- CWChris Williamson
Who's the thermostat? Oh, I mean, you're-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- 1:36:09 – 1:38:17
What Makes Someone Sound Truly Composed?
- CWChris Williamson
What is it that makes someone sound composed?
- JFJefferson Fisher
A calm voice. It's a voice that sounds warm. Voice that sounds in a lower register. Words that are spaced out more. If I talk really fast all the time and you can't really catch up with my message and I'm really like, just, I... It's gonna naturally make you more anxious. Like, we all have those people in our life that just to be around them, you feel a little bit more anxiety.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Um, those tend to be people who are, "The sky is falling." We have to have-- They're very, very fast when they talk. They're very quick to make judgments and choices and decisions about how they're gonna feel and how this is gonna go versus slowing it down, weighing, and knowing that the best type of choices are ones that have been intentionally thought of. Like, say for example, if you ask me a question and I immediately just have an answer right off the bat versus you ask me a question and I [inhales and exhales] take a breath and I think about it, and then I answer, which one sounds more composed? It's not gonna be the one that's all hyped up. It's gonna be the one that's a little bit more slower. Like, if you think of people that, who are the most composed in your lifeThe generally the people that make you feel the most comfortable. And to me, I like the aspect. I've always compared it to the just the feeling of warm. Feeling of you're welcome here. Yeah, you can disagree with, disagree with me. That's welcome, too. No, I, I, I see it between nice guy and good man. A nice guy wants to be liked. A good man wants to be worthy. Like, how, how do I, how do I show you my words that you're worth my time-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... and this conversation's worth my time? I, I do that not by trying to rush you out the door or look for the next person to talk to while I'm talking to you at the networking event-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... or small talk.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So I'm, I'm choosing to give you my time.
- 1:38:17 – 1:41:33
Can You Be Assertive Without Being an A**hole?
- CWChris Williamson
What's the difference between being assertive and being an asshole?
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs] Assertiveness says I can respect you and I can respect the other person, or I respect myself. Let me say that differently. So there's like a, a spectrum of somebody who's passive versus somebody who's aggressive, and then assertiveness is in the middle. Aggress- aggression says, "I don't respect you." Somebody passive says, "I don't respect me." Assertiveness saying, "I can respect both of us," meaning I can lay out my boundary, and I can still like you. Like, I mean, my dad would say all the time, you know, "I, I'm gonna need to discipline you. It doesn't mean I don't love you. You know, I, I, I need to, I need to do this. I need to have this conversation. And it's because I love you that I'm going to have this conversation." And when you come to terms with I can want all the good things for you and also say, "I'm not gonna tolerate that"-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... both things can be true.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. What about being an asshole?
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs] What about it?
- CWChris Williamson
I think a lot of the time when people think they're being assertive, they are leaning into assholery, and-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Is that a word?
- CWChris Williamson
Correct.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay. Let's say this-
- CWChris Williamson
Of, of the two of us, I'm aware that you've done 1,000 plus 2,000 depositions, but, uh, it's our language.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
I will remind you it's our language.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah. Although it is my taxes and your country, so I better be careful. Um, a lot of the time people mistake brusqueness and, uh, uh, callousness, like, like, uh, socially acceptable callousness as the same as being assertive. I'm gonna say this thing in a way that's unnecessarily terse or, or cutting or inconsiderate, I think.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And that's the same as being assertive, and a lot of the time I see people who are assholes that people see as unlikable, assertive people.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
If that makes sense.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I think a lot of the time the boundary of asshole and assertiveness functionally can sometimes deliver the same outcome, which is, I'm gonna say you bully the person into getting what you want, but you, you sort of state, you, you state your intention-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... without apology, right? That's something that the asshole and the assertive person have in common.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, but the difference is that the assertive person is doing it from a place of compromise pro-socialness, and the asshole is doing it almost to show off, to look good, to be inconsiderate. One-- that's it.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
One is considerate, and the other is inconsiderate, at least as far as I can see.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, and I'd say one is selfish. The other can also be supporting. I mean, it's-- I would say that the person who wants to be assertive has both people in mind. The other does not.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So I think the considerate, inconsiderate, the, the person who always has to win the argument is the person who typically loses everything.
- 1:41:33 – 1:47:04
Why We Need to Be Intentional With Our Words
- CWChris Williamson
You've got, uh, 10 specific ways to practice assertiveness. What is the one that most people skip?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh, being intentional with your words, meaning they find that the more words they use, the more believable they'll sound, and just the opposite. It's, it's this idea of the more words you have to use to tell the truth, the more it starts to sound like a lie. The more it sounds like you don't really know what you're talking about, the more words you have to use to explain something that should be relatively easy to explain.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So excessiveness, oversharing, saying too much, it's a very quick way to miscommunication because you're giving them... Do, have, do you know how to-- do you know Golden Corrals, like buffets? Ever heard of those?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
It's not a place you'd probably go to, but-
- CWChris Williamson
I-- look. Hold your-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Ruby's?
- CWChris Williamson
Hold, hold your thought-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay
- CWChris Williamson
... on Golden Corrals and where you're going, okay?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
I need, I need to, I need to, I need to make this statement to a person who's lived in the South of Amer- America for a good while.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
As a British person, I feel I have a more accurate understanding of American cuisine than Americans do.
- JFJefferson Fisher
That's probably true.
- CWChris Williamson
And this is because Denny's and IHOP and Cheesecake Factory are elite establishments.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Good. Thank you.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. You do understand so many Americans look down their nose at what are objectively wonderful places to go and eat. Denny's coffee at 2:00 in the morning, unlimited refills.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Cinnamon pancake stacks.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Don't you dare-
- CWChris Williamson
Fantastic
- JFJefferson Fisher
... say a-
- CWChris Williamson
Very good
- JFJefferson Fisher
... single bad thing about Denny's.
- CWChris Williamson
Very good. Very good. As Theo Von once said, uh, "You can see a woman giving birth in there sometimes."
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs] Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You know, you, you just don't know what you're gonna get-
- JFJefferson Fisher
You never know
- 1:47:04 – 1:52:29
Is Being Right Overrated?
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, being right is overrated. What's that mean?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. It means... You know, we've heard these phrases of do you wanna choose to be right or do you wanna choose to be happy? You know, do you wanna choose to be the person who always has to be right? Usually, that's the person who's also the loneliest. Like, if you have to be right in this one particular argument, like, and we all have these kinda like silly arguments we might have. Like, uh, my brothers and I might get into an argument about a movie, you know, whatever. Who's, what's the best movie on whatever, whatever. And you can sure... That, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking, like, a serious argument that you're having with somebody who matters to you, and you have to be right on it, and you're refusing to back down. And then they eventually go, "You know what? Have it. You got it. You're right. Congratulations." And that moment lasts for about a millisecond, and then you're just kind of left with feeling like an idiot. I mean, because you can continue to win arguments but also lose the relationship 'cause nobody wants to be with somebody who's always has to be right. It's, it shows more of an insecurity than it does intellect.
- CWChris Williamson
So what should we prioritize instead of being right?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Connection. It's the ability to see perspectives and understand. I, I'd say appreciating somebody's perspective is an underrated skill, meaning I don't have to agree with it. I can still hear it. So rather than saying, "I don't a- I don't agree with that"-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... which is me commenting on your point, I can say, "Uh, I see things differently." That's me commenting on your perspective.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Very different.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And so when I'm able to use words of perspective like, "Huh, I see that differently. I have, I have a different take on that. I, I look at that a different perspective. I get there another way," people go, "Huh. Okay, then what do you, what do you see? What do you believe? Oh, okay." Rather than them having to... They don't have to have their sword and shield and defend their-
- CWChris Williamson
Defend.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Exactly. They don't have to defend it. Now they get to go, "Oh, okay, they're not trying to attack me. They just, they go about it a different way. How do they go?"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. It's very inviting.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. Perspectives are, are what allow you to have conversations of understanding. I mean, rather than... I, I, I can't stand it when somebody goes, "I just don't understand how they could possibly believe that. Like, I don't, I just don't get how their mind could even under-" And it's like, did you try? Like, have you asked, like, how, how they came to believe that?
- CWChris Williamson
I don't think people mean that a lot of the time.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What people are, what people are saying isI am sufficiently morally superior to that person that my theory of mind wouldn't even allow me to-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right
- CWChris Williamson
... understand how somebody could vote for Donald Trump.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Or do whatever.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Or Kamala Harris or y- y- you support this, this perspective.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. It's because they, they do. They feel this superiority of, "I'm obviously right. They're obviously wrong. How could they not see from my-"
- CWChris Williamson
Look at how right I am.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm so right that they're essentially a different species in a different universe to me.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, it's like... You know what it makes me think about? It th- makes me think about empathy, so talking about the ability to feel and understand somebody else's emotions.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- 1:52:29 – 1:53:06
Why We’re Obsessed With Winning Arguments
- CWChris Williamson
Why do you think modern culture is so obsessed with being right, winning debates?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Because what of, what is our worth if we're not right? If... Because we- nobody thinks that they're on the side of wrong. Nobody goes into something thinking that they're the enemy or they're thinking about it the wrong way. Nobody wants to go, "I'm thinking about this the wrong way. Yes, I am." And they just stick with that. They all think that they have their own way about it. And so I think we're obsessed about it because what value does one derive from if we don't feel that we're walking in accordance of either good or evil?
- 1:53:06 – 1:56:42
The Biggest Clues Someone is Lying to You
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I've had a lot of communication experts on talking about detecting deception.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
What's realistic and true about working out whether someone's lying to you or not?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Evidence. [laughs] I mean, if you don't-
- CWChris Williamson
You sound like a fucking-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
... through trial lawyer. Nerd.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, a nerd. [laughs] Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, let's say you don't have that. Let's say you don't have that. I think I... It is very hard. There are people who are excellent liars. I would say that liars cannot... They love rebuttals. They hate silence. And so if they've said something that's a lie and you allow that to sit or you say, "I, I need to come back to this," that, that feeling of not being able to accept it, here's a cue that tells you if really somebody is lying. It's that they can't stand that you don't believe them. People who are telling the truth know it's the truth, and if you don't believe it, then, "Well, okay, I'm at peace because I'm telling the truth." But those who know that it's a lie usually will have this unproportional response of, "How dare you not possibly believe me," and, "How could you?" rather than having the confidence of the truth is the truth. Like, it... The truth needs no excuse, right? And so it's this element of those that are probably not saying all of the truth show up in ways that are... They're gonna question you. They're gonna ask you what you think-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... they should be doing. "What, what do you, what do you think I'd... Well, if I wasn't here, what do you think I was doing? You tell me. What you think?" Usually question it, like a very basic question of, "Were you... You know, did you drink Neutonic?" Like, "Did I drink Neutonic?" Like, you've-
- CWChris Williamson
The answer's always yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, the answer's always yes, you did, of course.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Um, I'm just, I'm fueling my focus.
- CWChris Williamson
Correct.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Um, [chuckles] and, and so they question it. They get upset about it. And they usually won't let it go because they, they want... They would rather harm you than be honest.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. Yeah, that makes sense. It's almost like, uh... It's almost like somebody is trying to lay down... It, it's similar to anger. It's reminding me of the same of a-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... this outsized response.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
This, uh, overly dramatic, "Well, how could you?"
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
The indignation that comes with that. But I can see times, I can imagine a lot of times where it go-What do you mean?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, yes, that thing happened. Yes, how do you not see it? Because, so indignation-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... is a useful tool, right? Because it actually mirrors what you would do-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right
- 1:56:42 – 1:59:33
The Best Way to Repair After Conflict
- CWChris Williamson
Ruptures hurt relationships a lot. What does gold standard repair look like to you? How do people-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... come back together after an argument?
- JFJefferson Fisher
This is big. Um, and my wife and I, we have kind of set up, [chuckles] we did this a few weeks ago, of, like, a system of, for us as a couple, how do, how best can I show up for her and she show up for me when it comes to repair?
- CWChris Williamson
You've been together for 15 years.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, but still, even. Dude, it's, it's ... Wait. Just wait, all right?
- CWChris Williamson
I know, I know.
- JFJefferson Fisher
It's, it's, it has- time means nothing, all right?
- CWChris Williamson
I just assumed given your professional career that this might have been a, a year three or four or five thing.
- JFJefferson Fisher
No. What do you think I learn all of this? It's f- because I made a lot of mistakes, man.
- CWChris Williamson
Ah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. It is, this is, this is all part of ... It's either you know this information, or any information, either because you learned it at great personal cost and risk, or you're just making it up. And, like, [chuckles] I, I've learned all this because of my life experience.
- CWChris Williamson
Research is me-search, as they say.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, that's exactly right. And so, yeah, we've done smatterings of things, but we decided to actually put something down. And I'd say the number one thing you have to do to kind of come back from an argument is, number one, ownership. You need to own what you said or own what you did. It's the element of, "I did that. I said this." Not trying to, "Look, I did this because you did," that, that's a- that gets no points. Zero score. That doesn't, doesn't help you at all when you start to, you know, "Well, if you hadn't have said this, I wouldn't have..." Like, that's toxic, and that's no good. If it's a full you got to take it on the chin ownership, "Hey, what I said, not cool. What I said, I own that. I did say this," and it's a true apology. And then you have to, two, go into this element of acknowledgment and affirmation, meaning, "I can only imagine that that made you feel hurt, that made you feel upset, that made you feel less than, that made you question, you know, my, my feelings," whatever it is. You have to kind of feel the feelings from their perspective of what you would assume. You probably-
- CWChris Williamson
Emotional stealing.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It, this, this, "I imagine that that made you feel like this," or, "Of course you'd be upset about this. I could, I... Why wouldn't you be ups- upset about that? Yeah, I said something big." And then, three, it's the element of, "We're still a team. I'm still working towards this." You kind of ha- have to have this element of hope where it's, "We're gonna still continue to work this out. We're gonna continue to get better at this." You gotta, you gotta keep working through it. And it's, depending on what you did, there's got to be apologies, of course.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- 1:59:33 – 2:01:08
Why Tough Times Build Stronger Relationships
- CWChris Williamson
I wonder whether most relationship failure is just bad communication. Obviously, there's incompatibilities. There's fundamental, fundamental problems that are insurmountable. There's a line from, uh, Visakan Veerasamy. He calls it, uh, the divorce paradox. Says, "Why is it that so many people separate from someone who seemed to be their favorite person?"
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
And it's because bad times are a far better predictor of relationship longevity than good times are.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's how you deal with disagreement, not how you enjoy wonder-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... that determines relationship longevity. Very few people have ended a relationship because there were insufficient peak moments-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... when you compare them to the number of people who've ended relationships because there were far too many bad ones.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
Too much rupture without repair as opposed to too little skydiving with a parachute.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. Yeah, I, I, I believe that the quality of the relationship doesn't depend on how good are the good times. It's can you be with them through the, the bad times though?
- CWChris Williamson
How good are the bad times?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, exactly. H- h- the hard, the really hard conversations because that's ... Those are invitations to grow deeper together, to bond more, to get closer together, to be known, to be fully known with that person. You don't get that in the first few dates. You get that in the 15-year knockdown, drag out, "Who am I? What am I doing?" conversations. That's where you get to see really what's, what's there inside. W- I mean, you, you have to find the bottom to know what's, how far you can go up.
- 2:01:08 – 2:02:56
What Really Makes a Great Partner?
- CWChris Williamson
What have you come to believe about choosing a good partner?
- JFJefferson Fisher
That it's hard work. Doesn't matter even if you're somebody who talks about communication or you're somebody for however long you've been married, it's, it's hard work. I, I don't know anybody that has been in a long-term relationship or finding their person. Of course, you want somebody who you can be a friend with and you can b- somebody you can be vulnerable with. Um, but more importantly, you need to have somebody that you communicate well with. If you don't have communication right-Uh, to me that's a, that's a relationship that's not gonna have longevity to it because it feels good in the moment, but in year six, year seven, year 10, you add kids into the mix, that doesn't help conversation. It's, it puts conversation problems on steroids. Now every little fissure and crack gets highlighted, and it's more stress. And then you got kids' schedules, and somebody's got soccer practice, and somebody has a dentist appointment. And then things just get... It's, it's way, way harder in that element. And so you have to have somebody who communicates well with you, and honestly, Chris, somebody who can put up with your ugly. Somebody who-- 'Cause you're gonna have those just moments where it's not a good look. Just not a good look.
- CWChris Williamson
That wasn't me at my best.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, yeah. And, and they know that. They, they're not gonna punish you for it. They know it wasn't.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And they're going to choose that their love is big enough for that bad moment and know that it's not always gonna be that bad moment. But at the same time, they're gonna expect you to come out of it and go, "Yeah, I could've handled that better."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Not blame them for your bad moment.
- 2:02:56 – 2:06:47
Lessons From a Trial Lawyer
- CWChris Williamson
What's the most fascinating thing about being a trial lawyer that you've learned after spending so much time in it that people from outside of your industry don't know or don't understand?
- JFJefferson Fisher
It's different in the sense of you're having to have, like... You know the movie Inception?
- CWChris Williamson
Definitely.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay. Like, who doesn't?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
It's, it's like you're, you're having a conversation within a conversation. I'm having to prove a point within a point. And so I am hired to have problems with somebody I don't have problems with, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And all of a sudden, their problems have now become mine, and now I'm advocating on their behalf. I'm being their voice. And now this other person's hired somebody to have problems with me, right? And so it's now attorneys arguing, secondhand removed from the people who are actually in the conflict.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And then now I'm gonna present this case to 12 people and a judge in a courtroom of what case should be left standing. Now, it depends on the facts and the case and everything else, but you are having to have a conversation that is not even being said. For example, as soon as you walk into the courtroom, all eyes are on you. If you hear a piece of evidence that's bad for you and I go... [scoffs] What does that tell the jury? They go, "Oh, this must be really bad for them." But if I stay calm and controlled as if like, "Yeah, I expected to hear that," doesn't, doesn't hit that way.
- CWChris Williamson
Regardless of whether you did or not.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Exactly. And then even when-- I've seen this a lot where if anybody's been in jury, they've seen attorneys approach the bench, counsel approach the bench, and they come up, and they usually play some kind of noise, white noise something to where you can't hear what the judges and the attorneys are saying.
- CWChris Williamson
No way.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, that's fun.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And so-
- CWChris Williamson
They should put some tunes on instead.
- JFJefferson Fisher
They sh- they really should.
- CWChris Williamson
Play some Cardi B or something.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh, I think that would be, that'd be pretty baller. That would be pretty cool. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
You're up there and you're like...
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, just some Kendrick.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. Um, and so you, you're talking and they always say it's, they watch who leaves and the reaction of the attorneys, because usually the judge is ruling on something that the jury can't hear on. Some- It's a matter of law that would sway the case. And if the attorney is walking away defeated, they go, "Oh, something must have happened." Or if the attorney's always objecting, that's the worst. You have to be really selective with your objections. So let's say a witness is about to say something, and I... It seems like it'd be something big, and I object. Stand up and, "I object," and the judge sustains it, and they skip to the testimony. They go, "Oh, he, he's hiding something from me. He must not want me to know everything."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So what is this? What am I teaching? I'm saying you are, you, you are having a conversation all with your body language, your whole presence, how calm and controlled you are. H-How can you be the most credible in the room without, have nothing to do with the actual facts of the case?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And you do that a lot by being the person who they go, "That person's telling me the truth. That's a truth teller. I can tell by how confident, controlled, measured they are. They don't seem like they're worried and anxious about every little thing the witness is gonna say."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. Which is interesting because that can be taught and engineered-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- 2:06:47 – 2:10:02
The One Rule Behind Great Communication
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, so lots of different techniques around communication. At least for me, the main thing that, the main thing that I'm taking away, or one of the main things I'm taking away, is a degree of consideration for the other person. That seems to be like a real through line-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... with a lot of what we're going on here that-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... um, holding your ground, being assertive, and also being understanding about what, what we're doing here. That kind of consideration is important. If there's one principle that people should hold onto when it comes to good interpersonal communication, what would it be?
- JFJefferson Fisher
One conversation's typically not enough. You need a lot of them. Meaning, we put a lot of pressure on one single conversation and that, that increases the anxiety, increases the, the fear of the moment.that I'm gonna say the wrong thing, do the wrong thing, and you're putting hype on a conversation that didn't need to have that kind of hype on it. Because really it should be the opposite. It should be a, "Hey, I'm talking to you about this because you matter a lot to me, and at the end of this we're still gonna be best friends, and we're still gonna go to dinner together tonight, and we're still gonna do X, Y, and Z. I just, because I love you, I need to tell you this. This is what's on my heart." You see how that's, rather than me trying to push everything at once. Versus if I were to say, I'd like to... Let's say it's a big, big important thing that needs to take some time. "I'd like to have a conversation with you over the next few weeks. I'd like to have a conversation over this month to talk about X, Y, and Z." Whenever you say that this is a conversation that's gonna take some time, it automatically, like, lowers everybody's anxiety.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Rather than you having to decide, this is the moment right here. Choose to be with me, not be with me. What are we doing? What are we not doing? It, it hypes that what if I get it wrong feeling. And there's a lot of times there's more conversation that, that needs to be had. Another I'd say is it's, it's that element of having something to learn, not something to prove. When you feel like you have to prove my point. People who have something to prove are the ones that always have to push their opinion. How dare you believe what you believe and not what I... How, how dare you have an idea that's not mine and go with something else, versus questioning in a very curious way that's, like you said, which I like, is that perspective seeking.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
How, how can I, how can I encourage the pursuit of perspective? You know, how can I get really disciplined on knowing where your thoughts come from? Where did you learn it? How long have you believed it? Where did that originate? Is that something you taught-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... yourself, or is that something you came across from really hardship?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And the more you give people time to share with that, the more they're gonna open up to you and realize you are a safe place for, to share these kinds of things and not harden up.
- 2:10:02 – 2:10:38
Find Out More About Jefferson
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, you're great. Let's bring this one home.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I appreciate the heck out of you. Where should people go to check out everything that you've got going on?
- JFJefferson Fisher
They can go to jeffersonfisher.com or social media, Jefferson Fisher.
- CWChris Williamson
Beautiful.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Thanks, man.
- CWChris Williamson
All right. Denny's, Cheesecake Factory, what do you think?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Let's, yeah, let's do that. So I think, um, you go Outback? Do you go Outback? Is that like a-
- CWChris Williamson
Steakhouse?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Sure. Let's do it.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay. Like a lemon onion or something.
- CWChris Williamson
Cool. All right.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Sounds good.
- CWChris Williamson
Goodbye, everybody.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Bye.
- CWChris Williamson
Dude.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Thanks for having me.
- CWChris Williamson
Bro. [outro music] Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, YouTube knows who you are deeply. It thinks you're gonna like this one even more.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Go on. Press it
Episode duration: 2:10:39
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